Talk:Frank Sinatra

Template:Vital article

Religion

I removed "Atheisim" the reference did not support it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:44, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Nominated this as a vital article

Just nominated Sinatra as a vital article, with Jimi Hendrix being the candidate for removal. See Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles#Induct_Frank_Sinatra.2C_remove_Jimi_Hendrix.MackyBeth (talk) 10:31, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Vocal Style and Lasting Influence

Why is there no discussion of his vocal style and legacy here ? What is his contribution to that singing genre - surely near the very top ? Did he develop Bing's contribution or not ?

86.138.151.92 (talk) 21:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Frank's 100th birthday on December 12th

I'm considering putting in a grant request for books to get this article to FA by December 12th. Given how many books are available though (see Frank Sinatra bibliography) I think we'd really need to read around 20 books and countless other sources to really make it comprehensive and the best possible article. It's a big project but can be achieved, but I need a few others who can commit to it too and share the books. Such is the amount of material written on him I'd imagine detailed sub articles like Film career of Sinatra and Music career of Frank Sinatra would be the way to go with a general overview here which is highly comprehensive but condensed. Anybody interested?♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:16, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

We hope, This is Paul?♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

OK-and that's the right person. :-) We hope (talk) 19:04, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Potential book requests by grant from WMUK:

1. Frank:The Voice (£3.91)
2. Sinatra - £12.64
3. Frank Sinatra: A Life Worth Living -£5.97
4. Frank Sinatra: A Life in Pictures -£9.80
5. Lady Blues Eyes: My Life With Frank Sinatra -£2.20
6. Frank Sinatra:An American Legend - £4.18
7. Frank:The Making of a Legend -£0.75
8. Sinatra - A Life Remembered -£0.01
9. Sinatra:the Untold Story -£0.01
10. Sinatra in Hollywood -£0.01
11. Sinatra:The Life -£0.01
12. Sinatra: The Man Behind the Myth -£0.01
13. His Way: The Unauthorized Biography of Frank Sinatra -£6.41

Total =£45.91 not including postage

Ideally three of us could split the reading with eight books each. If there's just two of us we'll have to reduce it a bit. But I really think all of those books should be read before this is promoted to ensure it is fully comprehensive.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:29, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Bede735 would you be interested in this too?♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

We have another hat in the Sinatra ring! :-) 78:26 has joined the team. User:Dr. Blofeld, you may remember the work to get Elmo Tanner to GA. We hope (talk) 13:03, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Great. Well let us know which books you're going to get, to make sure we don't get the same.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:17, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Question-Do we need the book on his FBI files, as the FBI has posted everything that's been released here in PDF form. All of the text is in the public domain because it was done by USG employees; they also can be downloaded and saved. We hope (talk) 16:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

OK, I wasn't aware it was the same stuff. you can take care of that one then!

• Frank Sinatra filmography is pretty much the equivalent to a "Film career of Frank Sinatra" article. Same goes for Frank Sinatra discography and "Music career of Frank Sinatra". Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:10, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Rubbish. Those are lists. You could write over 100 kb of decent well-written informative prose for each.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I believe the following would also be very useful for perspective:

1. Sinatra! the Song is You: A Singer's Art -£1.78 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 03:20, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@78.26: Yes I'll add that to the list. Just wrapping the Kubrick stuff up for GA. 78.26 if you can commit to this I'll request all of the books, split between the three of us.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:49, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld:, I think this is a great idea and I'd like to be involved. I got Jo Stafford up to FAC in 2013, and want to do some work on Johnny Mercer. But I'd be limited as to the number of books I could realistically get through in the timeframe we'll be working to. Three would probably be manageable, though I could do four at a stretch. Let me know which ones you get and I'll find some different ones from Amazon. I actually have a copy of Mr S so can make a start on that. Also, Sinatra is mentioned in the Jo Stafford/Paul Weston autobiography Song of the Open Road, which I've also got. The pair toured with him in the 1940s while they were all members of the Tommy Dorsey Orchestra, so I'll see what I can get from that book as well. This is Paul (talk) 21:21, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

For anyone in the UK there is currently a very good series about Frank Sinatra, Sinatra: All or Nothing At All, airing on BBC Four that might be worth a look. This is Paul (talk) 22:09, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, just in case there is any doubt, yes, I am committing to this. My only request is I'd like to be assigned the book "Remembered: Sessions with Sinatra" as this is directly in my field of interest. For what it's worth, my local library has a copy of this. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 23:45, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

According to their website my local library has a couple of Sinatra biographies that are not included on the above list, so I'll look into borrowing them. The titles are:

• All or Nothing at All by Donald Clark (1997)
• Why Sinatra Matters by Pete Hamill (2003)

It might take me a few days to get hold of them though because the list includes titles held by every library in the county, and it looks like they'll have to be sent to my local library from a different branch. Let me know if these would be ok, and in the event of them being unavailable I'll source them from Amazon. This is Paul (talk) 22:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Also looks like there's an updated version of the Taraborrelli biography published this year, and coming in October is Frank Sinatra: An Extraordinary Life by Spencer Leigh. This is Paul (talk) 23:02, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

@This is Paul: Can you let us know what books you get and cross them off the list?♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:38, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: @This is Paul: @78.26:, I've got nearly all of those books and utilized them when I wrote the vast majority of this articles text several years ago. It really doesn't need that much more research. A much greater effort should be made, IMO, on Sinatra's album articles, none of which are GA, and neglected articles of great importance to his life and times eg Cal Neva Lodge & Casino, Bobbysoxer, Harry James, Gordon Jenkins etc. I can't believe Billy Eckstine's 100th passed without a murmur! I'm presently rewriting Nat King Cole for his 100th in 2019. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 12:58, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

"It really doesn't need that much more research. ". Hmm. The film career coverage IMO looks very sketchy, and I'd expect there to be more on his earlier life in particular. I think this article could be greatly improved, not a criticism of your work on it to date, but given the traffic that this gets, more than even Cary Grant or Jimmy Stewart I'd say this is more of a priority.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:14, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I was too hasty :) You're quite right re traffic, I'd love to see the page just expanded a little, tightened, reffed, and the music bought to the fore really. As regards books the least scholarly are Michael Munn and Donald Clark, the best are Kaplan, Kelley, Granata, and Hamil, Sinatra and Italian Identity and the two books by his daughters. I'm really excited to see this get to FA. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 13:19, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Do you still have the books? If so we probably don't see to get so many. I do think this is worth going for for his 100th anniversary. If you could try to find more on his earlier life from them I can begin improving the film career coverage.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:22, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I think early life is fine really, I remember when this article had a separate biographical article like Napoleon, etc! The greatest part of our work should be 1935-1973 IMO. Everything else an afterthought, and the gods at play. I'll list my books this eve. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 13:23, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: I've ordered three books from the library, which should be with me in a couple of weeks. I went for the following;

• All or Nothing at All by Donald Clark
• Why Sinatra Matters by Pete Hamill
• All the Way: A Biography of Frank Sinatra by Michael Freedland

I see from the discussion above the Clark bio may not be so useful, but hopefully there'll be something good in it. As previously mentioned, I have Mr S, and plan to make a start on that over the weekend. I'll also consult the Stafford/Weston book again, and I have a bio of Johnny Mercer that may be worth a look too. All the best, This is Paul (talk) 21:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Great, I'll cross those off the list.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:52, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

ok, just a thought but Johnny Mercer could be worth an FAC drive at some point. We've missed his 100th birthday (that was in 2009), but 25 June 2016 will be the 40th anniversary of his death. I have improving the article on my to do list, but would welcome any help. Cheers, This is Paul (talk) 12:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that can be the goal after Sinatra. Sinatra frequently mentions Mercer in credits for his live performances. He was a close friend I believe. Somebody like Danny Thomas might also be a possibility at a later date. What a beautiful soul his daughter is!♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

User:78.26 and User:This is Paul Are you both definitely on board with this then? Once we settle what books you and We hope will get on your own accord I'll be making a formal grant request for books probably Tuesday. We can then split the remaining books between us.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:36, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I rewrote Death/Honours and Legacy/and Media portryals last year. Can't wait to help with everything else. How should it be structured? By decades or performance years? Or 35-46 (first fame) slump years 56-61 (capitol) 60s to retirement, then final touring years? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 16:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd be tempted to cover his film career and singing career separately actually like Red Skelton. Two big careers, I think it would get irritating going back and forth between each two for each year but might be wrong. 56-61 might have been a slump in singing years but the mid to early 60s was the peak of his film career.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm definitely in, and will read the books I've mentioned above. We have a nice long Bank Holiday weekend coming up so I can make a good start. As I go through each book I'll make some notes on significant stuff. This is Paul (talk) 18:22, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

This is great Paul, I'll include you in my grant request at WMUK which I should get around to Monday or Tuesday depending on We hope's own book acquisition. What structure would be prefer for this article then? Generally I prefer writing chronologically, but I think given the size of both of his careers I think it might be best to cover his music career and film career separately. Otherwise it'll be like "In 1957 Sinatra released xxx on the xxx label. He performed live at Seattle, which later was released as an album. That year he starred in xxx and xxx. In 1958 he recorded xx at." Opinion We hope? I think like Skelton would be the way to go.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:49, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

I won't know whether I have the books or not until Monday morning here, but can tell you that if I do, this is a lot of 5 books, so will get all of the 5 in question. Think you're right re: structuring this like Skelton. Both of these men had long careers and were notable in more than one field. Sinatra was making records and films of note at the same time, so it would seem sensible to separate the careers. We hope (talk) 13:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

My library has left me an answerphone message to let me know the Clark bio is waiting for me, but as it's August Bank Holiday weekend this weekend I won't be able to get it till Tuesday. Apparently the copy they have in stock is a large print edition, so the page numbering may be slightly different to the version listed above. Therefore if anyone else has it and there's anything usable we may need to standardize the references before nominating the article (unless two versions of the same book are acceptable at FAC; I've never put anything through where that's been the case so don't know how it would go). Re the structure. Red Skelton looks like a sensible layout to follow. Jo Stafford is also worth a look. Part of her career was as one half of a comedy double act, and I ended up discussing that in a separate section. This is Paul (talk) 21:28, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld:, yes, as previously mentioned, I am committing to this. I could probably be of most use in the "recordings" or "selected discography" section. I like collaborating, but I'm not really used to it because my contributions tend to be in obscure musical corners. Let me know what you (and the others) would like me to do, and I'll get down to it! 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 17:10, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

OK, on Tuesday then we'll sort out who has got what and then I can make a proposal for the remaining books probably Thursday.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Which biography is considered the definitive one for Sinatra? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

User:This is Paul + User:78.26 -OK what books did you get then?♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:27, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I have Why Sinatra Matters (Pete Hamill) and All the Way: A Biography of Frank Sinatra (Michael Freedland), which I picked up today and have till 24 September. I can renew them up to three times, so that should give me more than enough time to work through them. Still waiting on the Clark. I thought it had arrived, but that turned out to be some slightly crossed wires. It is the only one of the three in large print, and when I spoke to the library by phone I was told that a large print biography of Sinatra was waiting for me. I put two and two together and ... As mentioned before I also have Mr S, and a couple of other books that make reference to Sinatra. Give me a few days to read the two I got today and I'll start making some contributions. This is Paul (talk) 18:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

My library has nearly all of the books you have listed above. I am going to concentrate on "Sinatra! the Song is You: A Singer's Art" and "Remembered: Sessions with Sinatra". However, if there are any of those books you are having difficulty acquiring, and you feel are essential to this project, let me know. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 11:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Good idea, we've begun drafting it at Wikipedia:Frank Sinatra. Obviously we will use a great deal of material from the current article but it's just easier to set out the new layout that way and see exactly where we are piece by piece.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: Any reason for this not being in the draftspace? — MusikAnimal ^talk 20:48, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

As I work in the wikipedia space I'm increasingly feeling like abandoning the sandbox idea and just working with the main article. I feel more motivated when I edit the main article. We'll need to check the existing sourcing and rewrite but I think it might be best after all to just work on the main article and begin reshaping it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:59, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Hmm well drafts are better fit for the draftspace, which is the more collaborative namespace for drafting content work. The project namespace is for information and discussion about the project, which I'm not sure if this qualifies. Frankly (no pun intended) this seems like a bad idea to begin with, as you'll end up overwriting other editors' efforts on the main article when you copy over the draft. Meanwhile you will lose attribution, which is required. So yes, let's stick to the main article, as the effort will surely get more attention there. I think I can merge the two and do a selective restoration so that the draft lives in the revision history but the current state will be that of the main article. How does that sound? That will ensure attribution is intact, and you can still view the draft version via a permalink and move over whatever you want to. — MusikAnimal ^talk 21:15, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I've done most of the work to date in the wikipedia space and don't care about the editing history or attribution. We hope has also done a fair bit and I'm assuming that she isn't bothered either as the material we've both written to date won't be wasted anyway. We'll both clearly be actively editing the main article in coming weeks anyway. I'm sure we'll both manage to copy over any material started to date and update it. In some cases it might be best to compile a section in the wikipedia space first like I just did with Early life, but I'm keen to work on the main article as much as possible having had a go in a sandbox and not liking it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Copyright laws care about attribution. You could move the sandbox to your userspace, and link to there in your edit summary when you copy over content, among other options. Merging the two pages seems easier, though, as you won't need to bother with anything and everything will be in the revision history. You'll want to delete that sandbox eventually anyway. Does that sound good? Aside from nagging about where you're putting your drafts and ensuring attribution, getting this article to FA by the 100th birthday is a really cool project, and I am rooting that it will become a reality! :) Maybe if I have time or learn how to write prose I could help a little. Best — MusikAnimal ^talk 22:46, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

wife-beater

what about his history of domestic violence and sexism towards women?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.81.170 (talk) 11:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

What about it? Do you have a reliable source? What is the appropriate context? What do you feel needs to be included, remembering that extraordinary claims need extraordinary sources? Yes, he certainly had a reputation for "womanizing", and he also had a reputation for violence, and not just towards women. In other instances he is/was viewed as a progressive. Constructive thoughts regarding a complete, encyclopedic picture are always welcome, from anyone. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 16:20, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Pinging the Birthday Party Planning Committee (and other interested editors)

@Dr. Blofeld:, @We hope:, @This is Paul:, I've done some preliminary work with the books (by the way, I can add "Sinatra in Popular Culture" back to the list, I have it available at my library and on cursory review would be useful for a "legacy/impact" section) and would like to discuss they layout. Should discussion continue here, or should the re-write discussion take place at Wikipedia talk:Frank Sinatra? Thanks! 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 16:25, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. I do want to get cracking with this. The grant request is currently being processed. I think for now we should work and discuss it at the Wikipedia: page.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:25, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

You can't see genres on his infobox

Could someone fix that? -Dpm12 Dpm12 (talk) 05:29, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

We don't even need the infobox.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:06, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, we DO need an infobox; most film actors do, and my view is that it's needed for the "at a glance" user. I strongly suggest it be included. Frankly, the article looks unfinished without one. Modeling on my hero, Katharine Hepburn, an FA with an infobox, I strongly urge inclusion with improvement. From my review of the history, it was removed on Sept 28, 2015, existed in a different form in March of this year, had an infobox as far back as October 2012 with the same image but different formatting and though details changes, going back 500 or more edits at a time, I see stability and inclusion in 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008, and so on until what looks to be the original infobox addition in December 2005. Given this history, I think removal is ill-advised. Montanabw^(talk) 01:34, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Oppose inclusion of info box and per WP:BRD I have removed it meantime so full discussion can take place here. In this case the box includes a lot of trivia resulting in severe bloat. A personality such as Sinatra with an extensive career covering so many genres and associated acts, has been married several times with a number of children means the box is filled to overflowing and trails never endingly down the page. It may be appropriate to use in bios of sports people but serves little useful purpose here. SagaciousPhil - Chat 08:05, 30 September 2015 (UTC)