Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Paul McCartney/archive3

Paul McCartney

Paul McCartney (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Paul McCartney/archive1
• Featured article candidates/Paul McCartney/archive2
• Featured article candidates/Paul McCartney/archive3

Nominator(s): — GabeMc (talk) 06:24, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because after implementing the previous FAC suggestions, and a thorough copyedit, I believe it is now up to standards. — GabeMc (talk) 06:24, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments

• Given that this is written in British English, endeavor should be spelled as endeavour under '1960–1970: The Beatles'.
• Again "New York theater", should be New York theatre?
• Plural of bongo is bongos, not bongoes
• "and earned Martin a grammy for his orchestral arrangement", shouldn't the g in Grammy be in caps?
• "Which faired much better", fared
• "he correctly perceives will give him clarity for melody without rendering his sound to thin for groove" → too thin
• "If I had to pick one elecric guitar", spot the spelling mistake -- Lemonade51 (talk) 13:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Lemonade51, I believe the above concerns have now been resolved. — GabeMc (talk) 21:58, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: I fixed some of the Americanisms with a script. One comment I have is that the HarvErrors is showing a few errors, let me know if you need help fixing them. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:40, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
• There's a citation to "Miles 1989, pp. 84–88.", but I don't see any sources from Miles in 1989 in the bibliography, typo? ditto for "MacDonlad 2005, pp. 133–134." Otherwise the Harverrors are cleared up.
• Also, I don't see any citations to Benitez 2010 or Davies 2009, might want to move them to further reading. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:25, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments Mark Arsten, and for your help fixing the cites, and clean-up. The Miles cite was intended to be 1997, and MacDonald was misspelled. I think that should clear up the HarvErrors you brought to my attention. I also moved Benitez and Davies to further reading. Thanks again! — GabeMc (talk) 23:54, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment, leaning to oppose at present

The prose is wobbly in parts. I'll need two or three goes at this, and here's the first:

• Childhood

• Second para leaps from 1952 to 1961 and back to 1954.

I'm not sure what you mean here, the second graph in "Childhood" goes from 1947 → 1952 → 1953 → 1954, and does not mention any dates in the 1960s. — GabeMc (talk) 23:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I see, you mean the mention of his A-level exams at age nineteen, okay, it's fixed now. — GabeMc (talk) 21:20, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

• The first member of his family to own a car, his mother rode a bicycle – not clear who was the first member with a car – McC or his mother.

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

• an early memory her leaving – missing an "of"?

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

• he traded it for a £1 – who traded it – McC father or son?

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

• Musical career
  • fête – I prefer to use the circumflex, but I believe the MoS doesn't. You might like to check.
  • Cavern club – as "club" was part of the place's name I think you should capitalise it
  • produced what many critics consider to be some of their finest material - I entirely concur, but you really must have a citation or two for this
  • the stand-out track "Maybe I'm Amazed" – citation needed
  • its a "one-man album" – it is (or at a pinch it's, but that really won't do for a Featured Article)
  • Bill Harry. In 1971 he collaborated with her – who did, Harry or McC?
  • born to the McCartney's – why the apostrophe?
  • the later involved McCartney's – doesn't make sense. Do you mean "the latter"?
  • Which fared much better – very odd to start a sentence with this pronoun
  • over the course of just two days – editorialising a bit; perhaps lose the "just"
  • Liverpool Oratorio – prose is fine here, but I think we really ought to have a sentence or two on its critical reception
  • Prince Charles awarded him an Honorary Fellowship of The Royal College of Music – surely the RCM awarded it and the Prince of Wales presented it
  • encouraged to do so by his late wife Linda – via a medium or before she was late?
  • seventeen-month long battle – trouble with hyphens here; you could just blitz the "long"

That's all for now. More shortly. In the interests of full disclosure I should mention that I went to the same grammar school as McCartney (but later) and had the same English master, A J (Cissie) Smith (a distant relation of George Harrison, I believe), in whose honour I contribute these pedantic quibbles. – Tim riley (talk) 19:26, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your helpful and insightful comments Tim riley. I believe I have now resolved all the above concerns, and I look forward to your further comments. Thanks for your time, the article is much improved due to your effort. — GabeMc (talk) 01:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I am so sorry for the delay in submitting my second batch of suggestions. I am snowed under at present, but I promise to do my very best to have more comments within the next few days. Tim riley (talk) 19:20, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

No worries, no hurries, thanks for your time and effort! — GabeMc (talk) 23:35, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I hope to find time to add further comments within 48 hours. Profound apologies for the delay, and I hope I shall still be in time to contribute while the review is open. Tim riley (talk) 15:38, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

More Riley comments

• General

• You begin many paragraphs with "He" – which I think should be replaced with "McCartney".

Great suggestion, I think this issue is now resolved. — GabeMc (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

• 2001–present

• In 2005 he released the rock album – this is a very long sentence and needs splitting.

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

• three sold out concerts – I think you probably need a hyphen for "sold-out"

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

• He has been touring since 2001 … see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Relative time references

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

• was released in February 2012, that same month – stronger punctuation mark than a comma needed here

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

• that he will close – better as "he would close" ( Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Relative time references again)

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

• Musicianship

• As a musician, McCartney was largely self-taught, musicologist Ian MacDonald - stronger punctuation mark than a comma needed here

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

• He played a piano – I don't really think we need a wiki-link here: see WP:OVERLINK

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

More to come. Tim riley (talk) 18:07, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Tim Riley, the article is greatly improved due to your effort. — GabeMc (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Oppose per choppy prose and punctuation. I will give a more detailed rationale later. --John (talk) 09:44, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

This oppose is obsolete, and without an updated rationale, it should be disregarded. user pinged ~ GabeMc (talk) 11:11, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comments
  • "texture resona around" resonated? check source
  • "facination faded fast" check source; fix or add [sic] – Ling.Nut (talk) 15:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments and copyedits Ling.Nut3, I have fixed the above concerns and look forward to any further comments you make. — GabeMc (talk) 23:35, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment In the lead section: "According to the BBC, his Beatles song 'Yesterday' has been covered by over 2,200 artists—more than any other song." This is a statement of fact, not opinion. If there is no serious dispute about it, it need not and should not be attributed in the lead. If there IS a serious dispute about it, it should not appear in the lead. My guess is that the former is true, and "According to the BBC" should be cut. DocKino (talk) 02:15, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, great point, I agree. It's a sourced statement of fact that should not be contentious. I think I only had it there to cover my butt, thinking people would want to know who made this claim. I've made an edit that I believe resolves this issue. — GabeMc (talk) 02:27, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Support

• Two sources, Miles, Barry (1998), The Beatles: A Diary—An Intimate Day by Day History and The Beatles (2000), The Beatles Anthology are in the sources, but not referred to in citations.
• Is there a reason for the "Main article: Linda McCartney" tag? It seems awkward on a subheading, and since Jane Asher, Heather Mills, and Nancy Shevell all have main articles, why not just link?
• In the Musicianship section, it lists various instruments he played. Should there be a sentence or two about him as a drummer?

Cheers. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, good eye, Miles 1998 and the Beatles 2000 are not currently cited to in the article, so I have moved them to further reading per your suggestion. I removed the Linda tag. Also, good call on the drumming, I have included some details in the musicianship section as you suggested. Thanks for your time and input! — GabeMc (talk) 00:38, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Switched to support. Cheers! Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:08, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments

• The overall weighting is better than in the last FAC, but there are still some major missing pieces here.

Thanks for taking the time to make comments, I'll do my best to resolve them. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• There is nothing about the gradual leadership role shift in the group from John to Paul.

Good point Wasted. I think it's fixed now. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• There is nothing about most of the big singles during the last two years being Paul's.

I've edited this text string: "McCartney's contributions to the band's hit song's include: "Can't Buy Me Love" (1964), "Yesterday" (1965), Paperback Writer" and "Eleanor Rigby" (1966), "Hello, Goodbye" (1967), "Hey Jude" (1968), "Get Back (1969)", "Let It Be" and "The Long and Winding Road" (1970).[44]" to this: "McCartney's contributions to the band's early hits include: "Can't Buy Me Love" (1964), "Yesterday" (1965), Paperback Writer" and "Eleanor Rigby" (1966). He was also the primary writer of five of their last six US number ones, which were: "Hello, Goodbye" (1967), "Hey Jude" (1968), "Get Back (1969)", "Let It Be" and "The Long and Winding Road" (1970).[46]" Which should address this issue, let me know if it does not. Also the article later mentions that "Hey Jude" was the band's biggest single ever. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• There is nothing about Paul being the immediate cause of the band's breakup (although of course it was headed that way anyway).

If you mean that he was the first to sue for dissolution, then this is fixed now. If you mean he caused it, then that's really just an opinion that is not exactly supported by most of the sources I own (50+ books). There were many, many factors, (drugs, Yoko, marriage, the fact that they had been together for 13+ years, etcetera) and to blame Paul is overly simplistic, would require a WP:SYNTH, and its a bit dangerous IMO, afterall, this is a BLP. To do that topic justice would require a sub-section that really belongs at The Beatles and/or The Beatles' break-up anyway, not here IMO. I could perhaps be convinced otherwise, but please provide specific sourcing, versus a wild goose-chase for me to prove/disprove. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course I just mean the former. Remember that to the outside world, the news came in April 1970 that the Beatles had broken up due to McCartney leaving them. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Good point, I've now added the 10 April 1970 date for Paul's public leaving. — GabeMc (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• There is nothing about the 3-against-1 split among the Beatles the characterized the immediate post-breakup period, both legally (McCartney's lawsuits, Eastman vs Allen Klein, etc) and musically (especially John and George, with Ringo collaborating with them and not yet Paul, although Ringo was obviously less hostile than the other two).

Fixed I think, but are you expecting info on their post-beatles musical collaborations at Paul McCartney? — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• Some mention of his drums playing (on five Beatles tracks, then during several solo/Wings albums, especially Band on the Run) should be included.

Fixed. But I'm only aware of his playing drums on three Beatles tracks, which two did I miss? — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

"Ballad of John and Yoko" (a hit single) and "Why Don't We Do It in the Road" (maybe Ringo too on that one).

I added "TBOJAY", missed that one last night, but "WDWDIITR" is Ringo, according to MacDonald, Miles and Lewisohn. — GabeMc (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, "Why Don't We ..." had Paul playing drums in its first recording, but the recording used on the album has Ringo. I should have double-checked ... Wasted Time R (talk) 12:06, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

• More description of his piano playing could be added, especially since it's featured on some of the Beatles' most famous late-era songs and with disparate styles - the Fats Domino of "Lady Madonna" to the liturgical of "Let It Be".

Good suggestions Wasted, I added some detail, and will look for more. Please do point me to any sources you are aware of. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• His synthesizer playing/arranging should be mentioned. He was one of the early users of the Moog - somewhere in the Carr-Tyler book it praises him for getting something useful out of it without going overboard - and it became a key part of many of his later songs, e.g. some of Band on the Run, "Wonderful Christmastime", etc.

I did my best to flesh out some detail here. I'll add more as I find it. Which Carr-Tyler book do you mean? I'm only aware of one, low-quality (IMO) out-of-print, expensive picture-book. As far as Moog use in the Beatles, Harrison played in on two songs (as well as an entire solo album in 1968) and Lennon only once, Paul only played it on "Maxwell's SH" to my knowledge, MacDonald agrees.(MacDonald, 2005, p.366) — GabeMc (talk) 23:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Your synthesizer examples of "Loup (1st Indian on the Moon)" and "London Town" seem a little obscure. His most prominent post-Beatles synth parts are probably "Jet", "Band on the Run", and "Wonderful Christmastime", with "With a Little Luck" maybe coming fourth. The Carr-Tyler book ({{cite book |last=Carr |first=Roy |authorlink=Roy Carr |last2=Tyler |first2=Tony |authorlink2=Tony Tyler |title=[[The Beatles: An Illustrated Record]] |publisher=Harmony Books |year=1975 |isbn=0-517-52045-1 |ref=harv}} is actually very good, a NYT best-seller, and filled the gap in Beatles history books between Hunter Davies and the spate in the 1980s. The quote from page 110 is in reference to the Band on the Run album, but also him in general, and says "... he also plays the Moog synthesizer with more taste than most other exponents of this Frankensteinian instrument." And in any case, this section would be a good vehicle for including mention of "Wonderful Christmastime" in the article, which is probably one of the five most played post-Beatles McCartney songs of all when you factor in the many all-Christmas-from-November-on radio stations. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

1) I specifically mention "Loup (1st Indian on the Moon)" because I have a reliable source (Benitez, 2010, p.46) that explicitly states Macca actually played the Moog on it himself. That you think "London Town" is an obscure mention is an opinion, Ingham calls the song "particularly memorable".(Ingham, 2009, p.117) Again, I also have a WP:RS that states Macca played the keys on it (Blaney, 2007, p.123). 2) Per Blaney 2007, the keyboard parts on "Jet" and "Band on the Run" were played by Linda, not Paul.(Blaney, 2007, p.85) In fact, according to Blaney, Macca played keys on just one track from BOTR; "Picasso's Last Words". 3) I've added "Wonderful Christmastime", but I'm not sure why you are pushing so hard for inclusion of the Carr-Tyler book, which while it may well be "actually very good" as you say, they are likely incorrect to state that Macca played the Moog parts which they praise. Again, according to Blaney, Linda played almost all of the one-finger, monophonic Moog parts of which Carr-Tyler speak. Also, it's highly unlikely (IMO as a musician) that the syth part on "WCT" was even a Moog, as the parts are polyphonic and they modulate (something a Moog from 1979 could not accomplish), it was most likley a Sequential Circuits Prophet-5, though I am still looking for a WP:RS that explicitly states this. That Paul played keys on the track is enough for now. 5) "With a Little Luck" was already mentioned in the section. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:00, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. I wasn't aware that Linda played those parts, but I'm sure he wrote the part and determined what it would sound like. And I wasn't implying that "Wonderful Christmastime" has a Moog. I'm glad that song is now in the article, but in your sentence "McCartney also played a synthesizer on the Christmas song, "Wonderful Christmastime", a perennial holiday favourite", the text "the Christmas song" is pretty redundant. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:40, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Ooops. Fixed the wikilink. Thanks for the catch! ~ GabeMc (talk) 03:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Some mention of the criticism he endured for keeping Linda in his bands (especially on tour) given her somewhat limited musical abilities. The point is he didn't care what anyone thought, he was determined to have her in his musical life just as in the rest of his life.

Agreed. I added some details to that effect, will add more as I find it. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• McCartney's interest in electronic music is overweighted in the "Beatles" section. Yes, I know ever since the 1989 tour McCartney has been promoting this in order to counter the 'Paul just wrote the pretty songs, John wrote the hard-rocking, artistically challenging material' nonsense. And it is worth a brief mention. But Paul did write beautiful melodies, which were inherently more sophisticated and developed than John's. And "Yesterday" and "Eleanor Rigby" were both more important in broadening the horizons of what the Beatles could do on record than any of McCartney's electronic experiments. And to give most of a paragraph to this electronic experiment and never mention at all McCartney's role in side two of Abbey Road is just plain wrong.

I think it's fixed now. Let me know if/where you want more/less detail. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• The Guardian criticism of Liverpool Oratorio seems overweighted. It, or at least aspects of it, got some favorable notices too.

I did my best here, if you are aware of a more favorable review, please do point me in the right direction. As far as I can tell no "real" classical critique gave it an overall favorable review. I could be wrong, and as I said, if you can provide a better example I would be glad to use it. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• The article doesn't make clear what McCartney's level of commercial success has been. Through the mid-1980s his records sold well and he got a lot of radio airplay, but since then he hasn't really. What was his last new song to get any kind of airplay in the U.S.? Probably "My Brave Face" back in 1989, maybe "Freedom" a bit after 9/11. That's it. His concert tours have been very successful, but it's off of old material. To illustrate, has any song later than the early 1980s appeared on any tour after the one to promote its containing album? That's kind of a metric for whether aging performers/composers have vital new music or not.

"The article doesn't make clear what McCartney's level of commercial success has been."

A very confusing comment. The fourth sentence reads: "He has been described by Guinness World Records as the "most successful composer and recording artist of all time", with 60 gold discs and sales of over 100 million albums and 100 million singles, and "the most successful songwriter" in UK chart history.[1][2]" In "Recognition and achievements" it says: "In 1986 he received acclaim from the Guinness Book of Records Hall of Fame, who presented him with a rhodium disk to commemorate his standing "as the most successful musician of all-time."[1]" The article mentions his three most succsessful songs, and every single #1 he ever had in the US, and in the UK. The lead ends with "He is one of the UK's wealthiest people, with an estimated fortune of £475 million in 2010".

As far as the radio play stuff. Are you asking me to summarize the end of his popularity according to who? Can you suggest a source for this? — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I should have written, "The article doesn't make clear what McCartney's level of commercial success has been from the mid-late 1980s to the present." The answer being: Album sales, somewhat successful. Singles and radio play, not successful at all. Concert tours, very successful but based upon old material. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure how I could cite that without a WP:SYNTH, or a WP:OR. An astute reader should be able to tell that his last #1 hits came in the 1980s. I know of no way to cite radio play, or any sources that detail which songs he has played live over the last 42 years (minus the 1980s) of touring post-Beatles. — GabeMc (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

You can certainly state somewhere that his last number one hit came in year X, his last top twenty hit came in year Y, things like that. Any of the Joel Whitburn-type sources can verify that. You can say that his last platinum studio album came in year Z, the RIAA database will verify that. You can use a source like this MW/WSJ one to show to McCartney, like many older artists, had struggled to get radio airplay for his newer material. This Chicago Tribune piece confirms that McCartney was dissatisfied with the low radio airplay he was getting. I realize that currently the article doesn't cover any of his record company switches - maybe it should? - but these sources can be used to confirm the point about diminishing airplay for new material. I'll keep looking for sources on what's played in concerts. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:11, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

The article now currently mentions: "[When] his last number one hit came", "[When] his last top twenty hit came " and "[When] his last platinum studio album came". I'm not at all interested in the over analysis of his radio play per song, album, state, region, country or decade, radio play is a dying format anyway, should we discuss his 8-track and cassette sales as well? As far as the songlist at his live shows, the article currently establishes that as of 2002 his live sets of 36 songs included 23 Beatles songs. The article also mentions that in 2005 his shows consisted of 35 songs, with 23 Beatles tracks. The article also makes clear that during his most recent shows in Mexico City, just last month, the band played 23 Beatles tracks in a 37-song set, that's enough detail on his performances of Beatles songs I think, we have clearly established that the balance of his live-set has remained roughly consistent since 2002. P.S., paulmccartney.com is good source for "what's played in concerts". ~ GabeMc (talk) 08:02, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Per your comment: "I realize that currently the article doesn't cover any of his record company switches - maybe it should?", there is now a comprehensive sub-section devoted to 50 years of record label data, thanks again for the great suggestions. ~ GabeMc (talk) 07:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Also one element of style that consistently bothers me while reading the article is the overuse of in-text attributions. If something is clearly true and supported by many sources, it's okay just to state it as fact! Some examples:

• "McCartney was dubbed "the cute Beatle", according to Miles." This was added based on a comment I made in the previous FAC, but there's no need to limit it the in-text opinion of one writer. There are many references that will say this, look at this Google News archive search for example.

"the cute Beatle" is a direct quote from Miles, who has not been established yet, therefore this quote needs to be attributed in-line. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't need a quote. You can write something like, "... McCartney was known as the 'cute' Beatle" and source it. That's not a quote, it's a label, and it doesn't need in-text attribution.

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• ""one-man album with Paul playing all the instruments" himself, writes Beatles biographer Bill Harry." Why the in-text attribution? Do you or someone else really doubt that McCartney played all the instruments on McCartney himself?

Ditto. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

You should paraphrase this and cite it, no quote is needed.

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• "the feature film Give My Regards to Broad Street, a musical which included Starr, and "was savagely panned by the critics" according to Harry" Was it not panned by critics according to anyone else?

Ditto, I'm merely attributing a quote in-line because it is unclear who is saying it. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Paraphrase and cite.

I disagree here, and prefer to keep the direct quote/in-line attribution. — GabeMc (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Fixed via paraphrase. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• ""religion did not play a part in their upbringing" according to biographer Barry Miles" Are there other biographers who think differently? If so, that should be presented (with "Let It Be" presumably as partial evidence). If not, this should just be presented as fact and sourced.

No, the sources overwhelmingly agree, I cite Miles because he is being directly quoted, and BTW, "Let It Be" is not at all about the virgin Mary, or religion, Paul's mother came to him in a dream telling him to "Let it Be", or so he claims, her name was Mary. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Paraphrase and cite several of the stronger sources.

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• "McCartney designed a series of six postage stamps issued by the Isle of Man Post in 2002, and according to BBC News, he is the first major rock star in the world to do so." Either we believe this is a fact, in which case it should just be stated, or we think it is it is suspect, in which case (since this is a fairly minor matter) it should be removed.

Well, the BBC is the source for the claim, so they are attributed in-line, lest the material be challenged later (see below) — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Paraphrase and cite. If someone doesn't believe it, they can see what source you are using. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I disagree here. "the first major rock star in the world to do so" is a somewhat bold/ambiguous claim, which I would much rather quote and attribute to the BBC in-line. — GabeMc (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

This is now fixed via paraphrase. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Neither the weighting/omissions list or the unnecessary in-text attributions list are exhaustive; they are just some that I noticed going through the current version of the article. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:10, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• In a work/time crunch at the moment, so will follow up on the above later, but some other things:

• The chronology towards the end of the "1960–1970: The Beatles" section is now all jumbled.

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

There are still ordering problems in this section. "McCartney's contributions to the band's early hits include ..." should come earlier, and before the discussions of "Yesterday" and "Eleanor Rigby". The "For Abbey Road ..." description should go a little earlier, and I think the breakup/aftermath material should be its own paragraph. (The current juxtaposition suggests the Abbey Road medley disagreement was a major factor leading to the breakup, when of course it was just one of many.) The "Between 1963 and 1970 ..." summary should either go near the beginning or near the end, not in the middle of the section. There is a missing link to The Beatles' 1966 US tour. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:06, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe this issue is now fixed, though I'm not sure where you expect the Abbey Road material, as it is now mentioned in the chronology during the summer of 1969, when it was recorded. — GabeMc (talk) 23:36, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

• To illustrate that the legal/business squabbles went on a long time, McCartney's absence at the band's inclusion in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1989 (or whenever it was) should be included.

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

• I think one of the points about "Yesterday" and "Eleanor Rigby" is that the former was their first song to include strings, and the latter the first to include no pop instruments at all. In addition I think something indicating the breadth of McCartney's style during the Beatles is warranted, perhaps text like "While McCartney was featured in many of the group's best-known ballads, he was also responsible for frenetic rockers such as 'Long Tall Sally', 'I'm Down', and 'Helter Skelter'."

I added the requested detail on "Yesterday" and "Eleanor Rigby", but as far as "the breadth of McCartney's style", I think this is already well covered in the "Musicianship#Vocals" section. Though any suggestions for specific material not already included there is always welcome. — GabeMc (talk) 23:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree it's in the later section, but I still think some kind of mention is due in the Beatles section that he was responsible for some of their fiercest rockers. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:06, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

As John was equally "responsible for some of their fiercest rockers", this is beginning to border on a WP:NPOV issue IMO, so which song/s do you specifically request I summarize and/or mention in the Beatles summary section that are not already covered in the "Musicianship" section or elsewhere? — GabeMc (talk) 02:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

• What were the consequence of his drug arrests? Wasn't he barred from entry into some countries for a while? Where did the 1984 and 1997 arrests take place?

Fixed. Details added. — GabeMc (talk) 23:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

• There really needs to be more on his concert tours. The live albums from them are not significant, except for Wings Over America, but other things about them are. The Wings University Tour illustrated his desire to be in a working band and to escape some of his Beatles fame by operating in a low-key manner and not playing any Beatles songs. The Wings Over America Tour was very high profile and a big success but notably with only five Beatles songs played in most shows. The 1989 World Tour was a milestone in that it was the first time, two decades after the fact, that he fully embraced his Beatles past and fully integrated that material into his shows. Since then his tours have explored more of the Beatles catalogue. Some brief metrics on the commercial success of the tours can be given: how many dates, the total gross, rank within other tours for the year, Billboard or Pollstar awards if any. Sources do exist for all this, see for example this Billboard article declaring his Driving Tour the tops in 2002. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:07, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your insightful suggestions, the article is greatly improved due to your effort. I believe I have resolved the issue of lack of detail on his tours. Let me know if/where you think we need more/less detail. — GabeMc (talk) 07:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the material is good, except that a) you are missing links, each of these tours has its own article and b) the material should be integrated into each of the appropriate "Musical career" sections (Wings, 1982-1989, etc). There's no reason to treat the tours separately from his other musical activity at the time (singles, albums, films, etc). The "Tours" section should just have the list of tours, the same way the "Discography" section has a list of albums. You can also be a bit more concise about describing the Beatles content of the tours, meaning there's no need to name specific Beatles songs played. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:06, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Linked and integrated, great suggestions, thanks. — GabeMc (talk) 02:19, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Looks much better, a few further comments on this aspect:

• "while "Scrupulously avoiding Beatles songs" during their performances, writes Ingham." is another example of an unnecessary in-text quote and attribution. Just paraphrase and cite by saying "while not playing any Beatles songs" or something like that.

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

• "Wings mananger, John Morris comments ..." the tense is unclear (is he saying this then or now?) and the whole quote seems unnecessary; just say the most of the tour was played in halls. \

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

• I would drop the whole ", including the Little Richard hit, "Long Tall Sally", which McCartney performed during the encore, the only song he played during the tour that had previously been recorded by the Beatles" text, which is unnecessarily complicated; the previous text gets the idea across

I respectfully disagree. The point here is to inform the reader of the first example of a song performed by Wings that had been previously recorded by the Beatles. I prefer to retain this material for that reason. It also illustrates that a Little Richard cover was his first choice when "breaking" the seal on the Beatles recording catalog, which reinforces Richard's influence on Paul. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

• "Live and Let Die" was a top ten US hit too, and you might add a parenthetical that it became a pyro-filled centerpiece of his later live shows.

Good suggestion. Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

• Not concerts, but there needs to be more on Band on the Run: it is by far his most critically acclaimed post-Beatles work, as well as his most commercially successful; it was recorded under trying circumstances (band members quitting, Lagos, etc) and has appeared on several "best albums of all time" list. \

I agree, good suggestion, thanks. I added some detail. Let me know if I missed anything crucial. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

If anything, you put too much on it. The "Wings" section is now longer than the "Beatles" section, which doesn't seem right. I think you can omit "It was a US and UK number one", omit the mention of Grammys (they weren't major ones), and omit the mention of "Jet" and "Helen Wheels" (you generally don't mention songs in this section unless they were number ones). At the end where you say "They also recorded six US number one singles ..." you might also give the total number of top tens in both the US and UK for Wings. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:26, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Wasted, the Wings section is now longer then the Beatles section primarily because of the Wings tour info, which about doubled its size and which you (rightly I think) told me to integrate into the section. As far as: "I think you can omit "It was a US and UK number one"" What about your above comment: ""Live and Let Die" was a top ten US hit too, and you might add ... that it became a pyro-filled centerpiece of his later live shows." Only BOTR and Venus and Mars were #1s in the UK and the US, so it's notable. As far as "omit the mention of Grammys (they weren't major ones)" please see: "there needs to be more on Band on the Run: it is by far his most critically acclaimed post-Beatles work, as well as his most commercially successful". Per: "omit the mention of "Jet" and "Helen Wheels" (you generally don't mention songs in this section unless they were number ones)." Please see above, also, not exactly accurate, I mentioned "Live and Let Die" (at your suggestion I believe, and thanks, I agree), which was not a number one in the UK or the US. "Jet" and "HW" were hits, the only other two from BOTR that could be called hits, so their inclusion is appropriate to help illustrate BOTRs commercial success. Further, "you might also give the total number of top tens in both the US and UK for Wings." Yeah, I might, but you just said there is now "too much" detail in the section. I'll do some research later and I've included Wings top ten totals for the US and UK. — GabeMc (talk) 21:33, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

The idea is for the article to cover the most important things, but do so succinctly. Whether songs reached number one is not the only criteria for giving them attention here. If you go to any McCartney show, what three post-Beatles songs get the biggest audience reaction? "Maybe I'm Amazed", "Band on the Run", and "Live and Let Die". What was the one post-Beatles song to make McCartney's Super Bowl halftime show? "Live and Let Die". What was the one post-Beatles song to make the Queen Jubilee Concert a couple of weeks ago? "Live and Let Die". So that's why I think a little extra attention is warranted to that song. Regarding Band on the Run, I would just say something like: "..., the acclaimed album of the same name, became Wings' first platinum LP. It was recorded in 1973 in Lagos, Nigeria, under difficult circumstances after the sudden departure of two group members. It was the band's first LP to top the charts in both countries and the first ever to top Billboard's album chart on three separate occasions. One of the best-selling LPs of the decade, Rolling Stone named it Album of the Year for 1974 and later gave it a spot on their list of the 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. It is regarded by many as McCartney's finest post-Beatles work." That's about half the length of your text but gets the point across equally well. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:18, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll trim what I can, but lets just agree to disagree on this one. The BOTR material is one medium sized paragraph, hardly excessive IMO for a 140,000 byte article, when you consider BOTR is likely his greatest post-Beatles accomplishment. That it was made in Nigeria is a trivial detail that belongs at the article page, and that you want me to add that back, yet cut other material in the name of brevity seems to me a dichotomy. — GabeMc (talk) 02:17, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Uhh, I think the "dichotomy" is that you've nominated this article twice at FAC, meaning after careful, thorough examination you thought the content in the article was just right. The first time, Band on the Run was not even mentioned in it, and the second time, all it said was "the 'acclaimed' album of the same name, Wings' third, was a massive success that became their first platinum album." So now all of a sudden you think the text I proposed is too skimpy!? Wasted Time R (talk) 04:01, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the first nom was premature, this second one much less so. In my past experience, an FAC nom was typically ignored for several weeks before any comments even started to come in, so I wrongly thought I could "whip it into shape" before any serious comments, my bad, FAC is not a workshop. My point here, now, is while I have greatly appreciated your helpful, thoughtful and insightful input throughout, I also retain some creative license, i.e. my input has value as well. In a nut-shell, I just think the medium sized graph on BOTR is not excessive in the least. That you want me to mention that it was recorded in Nigeria, now that's excessive IMO, since the article does not mention where any of his other albums (Beatles, Wings or solo) were recorded. I sincerely thank you once again for all the great input that has helped me to improve the article, but it is not my understanding of FAC that a nominator must exactly follow each and every suggestion offered without any autonomous opinions of their own. — GabeMc (talk) 04:22, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree that the nominator should fight for his or her vision of the article and does not have to agree with, or implement, all of the suggestions at FAC. I'm just not sure what your vision for the article is, given the swings in weighting that have happened between 2nd FAC, 3rd FAC start, and 3rd FAC now. But I don't think I'd be the only reviewer who thinks that weighting the Wings section more heavily than the Beatles section is backwards. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:38, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, Macca was in both the Beatles and Wings for roughly the same length of time, so I hear you in principle on weight, all things being equal, however word-counting and content analysis are not equal. As I said above, the Wings section details each of their tours (at your suggestion), the Beatles section does not. Remove the tours info from the Wings section and it would no longer be larger than the Beatles section. Also, the Beatles were a band Macca was once part of, whereas Wings was his band. The Wings section goes into detail about albums that the Beatles' section does not. At any rate, if you absolutely insist that the Wings section cannot be longer than the Beatles section, then what specifically do you think is missing from the Beatles section that should be included and/or what excessive detail is there in the Wings section that would significantly reduce it's size if removed, without compromising comprehensiveness? Also, for the record, as the article currently reads: the Wings section contains 1321 words; the Beatles section: 1038, a difference of only 283 words. Keep in mind also that the Wings section covers over 11 years (1970-81) whereas the Beatles section covers less than 10 (August 1960-April 1970). So is less than 300 words really so undue for a section that covers one full year more? ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:08, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not insisting on anything, absolutely or otherwise. What I would drop is the naming of the members (other than the McCartneys and Laine); it's handled well in the Wings article, with a nice bar chart indicating periods of membership. I don't see a need for it in this article (and neither did you, on either of your FAC submissions). Wasted Time R (talk) 03:40, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

1) You keep mentioning how poor quality the article was at it's prior FACs, or even the start of this one, or what content it included or didn't include then, FTR I agree with you, it was poor-quality then, it's much better today, can we please move on Wasted? What matters is whether or not the article is FA quality now, you keep mentioning that prior versions were not FA quality and you have made your point on that perfectly clear, I don't dispute it, never did really and I do not think it needs to be restated ad nauseum. Anyone can check and see what a miserable state this article was in on 25 April 2012, when I began my extensive copyedit, of which you've proved a valuable asset. Indeed, it's clear that the article has come a very long way in two months, as it looks pretty decent right now, exactly two months later. 2) Anyway, if I did trim out the Wings members names, and their joining/quitting, it would result in a net reduction of less than 100 words, which is well within my editorial discretion. In sum, I prefer that the Wings section names each member. Also, see your comments immediately below, "Indeed, unless I missed it, there's nothing in this section about the constant personnel changes that Wings underwent ... it is an important point." Is an "important point" worth 100 words or so? If more editors than just you complain about it how much space is devoted to naming the former members of Wings, I'll gladly trim them out, but then, why do I even mention his current and former band line-ups by name? Indeed it was you who suggested I specifically add the name of the drummer who played with Macca for only one tour ever. ~ GabeMc (talk) 06:38, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Also, FTR, the Beatles section is now longer than the Wings section. ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Indeed, unless I missed it, there's nothing in this section about the constant personnel changes that Wings underwent. You don't have to name all the members, but it is an important point.

Seems like excessive detail for an overview article of musician Paul McCartney when there is already a topical article dedicated to the band Wings, but sure, I added details to include every member, when they joined and when they quit. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, I agree with you that naming all the members is excessive detail! So I'm not sure why you added it in response to my comment, when all I suggested is stating something near the beginning of the section like "Wings underwent frequent personnel changes, with the McCartneys and Laine the only constant members." Wasted Time R (talk) 11:26, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, it was fairly easy to just name them all and I would prefer to retain this info now. — GabeMc (talk) 21:33, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

• The wording on the 1975-76 Wings Over America/World tour suggests there were more Beatles songs played than there were. I would simply state that there were 5 Beatles songs played in the 29-song shows. If you then want name them, you can.

Fixed. I retained the five song titles as a matter of personal preference. I cannot currently pin-point whether there were 25, 29 or 30 songs played per night, my guess is it varied. Harry says the shows included 30 songs, yet he lists only 25. He does state that the shows were two-hours long, so I included that for perspective. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

• "Wings was formally disbanded in 1981, and Laine claimed shortly after that a significant cause of their dissolution was McCartney's reluctance to tour, fearing for his personal safety after the 1980 murder of Lennon." I've always had the sense that Wings just ran its course, both commercially and artistically. And that McCartney's drugs charges in Japan had as much to do with it as what happened to John. Is this really the major reason that sources give for it ending?

Yeah, I'm sure Wings running it's natural course was a major factor also. As far as the Japan drug charges, they were dropped and Macca got off with 10 days in jail, so I'm not sure how that would compare to the murder of one of his greatest friends and former bandmates. Also, though I do not include it in the article out of respect/safety for Macca, according to at least two high-quality sources ((George-Warren, 2001, p. 626), (Benitez, 2010, p.97)) Paul was getting death threats against him (George-Warren) and his family (Benitez). Benitez calls the threats, "the final blow" for Wings. Further, Macca did not tour again for over a decade, something that Wings running its course and/or the 1980 drug charges would not likely have been a notable factor in. Afterall, he was busted twice in 1972, convicted in 1973 and busted again in 1975, yet these encounters with the police left him undeterred, indeed he was busted again in 1984. In summary, most sources are vague as to why Wings split, stating merely when they did. The sources that aren't vague generally hint at McCartney's fear he "was gonna be next", a paraphrased Macca quote I can't locate at the moment. At any rate, the article is merely stating that Laine made this claim in 1981, which is indeed a statement of fact, supported by more than one WP:RS. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I added a few details so as to not make it seem Lennon's murder was the only reason Wings split. Good suggestions as always, thanks again Wasted Time R. — GabeMc (talk) 22:38, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

• "Later that year he launched the Paul McCartney World Tour ..." Should indicate that it was with a six-person touring band he formed, since you mention the same for his later/current band.

Fixed, band members added. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, I'm not sure adding all the band members is needed, just that he did so. If you do keep all the names in, you need to add the drummer switch for the New World Tour. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:26, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I named them all for internal consistency, since Macca's other bands are named. I've added a bit on the drummer switch for the New World Tour. — GabeMc (talk) 21:33, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

• "the New World Tour" - tour names are not quoted.

Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

• "He toured in support of Driving Rain ..." By this point, the "in support of" notion is obsolete and shouldn't be used. Established rock artists such as McCartney, the Stones, Springsteen, U2, etc. make much more from their tours than they do from their albums. If anything, a new album exists to give them a reason to tour, not the other way around.

Good point. Fixed. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

• It's outside the scope of this article, but the four 2002 Driving tours articles should really be coalesced into one, since they were just differently branded legs of the same thing. (That's how Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle Tour is handled, as well as Zooropa and Zoomerang being included in Zoo TV Tour.) That would make the writing and linking less awkward in this article.

I agree 100%, the four "mini-drivin'" tours should be merged together. I would certainly be willing to contribute to this effort, but having never merged any articles myself, I would need some assistance from a more experienced editor in that regard. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

The ball is rolling on this merge and it could/should be accomplished soon. — GabeMc (talk) 02:15, 20 June 2012 (UTC) The 'Driving' articles are now merged, thanks to Evanh2008. — GabeMc (talk) 03:27, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Good work on pushing the merge. I neglected to mention it in the previous comment, but the Driving tour was also named the Pollstar tour of the year, see this source. You can include that, very briefly: "and was named top tour of the year by Billboard and Pollstar". Wasted Time R (talk) 11:26, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I added the Pollstar detail, thanks for the source. — GabeMc (talk) 21:33, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Out of time again, more later. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:16, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again for taking the time to comment and to put forth the effort. The article is greatly improved due to your suggestions. — GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Some new comments from me:

• The list of early Beatles songs he was the contributor of should include "I Saw Her Standing There". Even though not a single, in the U.S. at least it has become one of the best known of all Beatles songs to the younger generation, due to its ubiquitous use during breaks at sporting events and at bar/bat mitzvahs and the like.

Agreed, it is now included in the list. ~ GabeMc (talk) 10:17, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• I think the discussion of McCartney's bass playing should refer to the Höfner as the "violin" bass, since that's how many people think of it. You could also mention that he returned to using it in the late 1980s.

Well, the thing is, it's erroneously called a "violin" bass, it is actually shaped as a viola. So no, I would rather not spread that misnomer, no matter how popular. That is/should be covered/explained at the topical article dedicated to the instrument. ~ GabeMc (talk) 09:58, 25 June 2012 (UTC) The article now specifies when Macca switched back to the Hofner c.late '80-early '90s. ~ GabeMc (talk) 10:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• "An upcoming tribute album is expected in June 2012 ..." June is almost over and it hasn't materialized. I would suggest removing this, and adding it back in if and when it happens. In fact, I'd wait to see if it gets much of a reception, since tribute albums have become a dime a dozen at this point.

I agree, it's now removed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 09:58, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• The mentions of "Coming Up" as both a Wings hit and a solo song will confused the reader who doesn't know the back story. I would either omit the second mention or label it an alternate version.

This is fixed and should be clear now. ~ GabeMc (talk) 09:58, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• This is the version of the article in January 2007 that went into the 1st FAC, when a different group of editors was involved. It might be worthwhile scanning it to see whether anything important is in it, that got lost along the way and should be in the current article. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:00, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

That's good advice, thanks again for taking the time out to help Wasted! ~ GabeMc (talk) 09:58, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - I'll try to ce out the unneeded in-line attributions. I would however, like to point out, per WP:QUOTE:

Quotations must be verifiably attributed to a reliable source (see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden of evidence). Wikipedia policy for proper attribution of quotes is found in WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. Other guidelines are found in WP:MOSQUOTE and WP:CITE. Attribution should be provided in the text of the article, not exclusively in a footnote or citation. A reader should not have to follow a footnote to learn whose words a quote is. Any quotation that is not sourced may be removed at any time, however, a good faith search in an effort to find a source before removing a quote is appreciated (see WP:UNSOURCED and WP:PRESERVE).

Also this exchange,

Comment In the lead section: "According to the BBC, his Beatles song 'Yesterday' has been covered by over 2,200 artists—more than any other song." This is a statement of fact, not opinion. If there is no serious dispute about it, it need not and should not be attributed in the lead. If there IS a serious dispute about it, it should not appear in the lead. My guess is that the former is true, and "According to the BBC" should be cut. DocKino (talk) 02:15, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, great point, I agree. It's a sourced statement of fact that should not be contentious. I think I only had it there to cover my butt, thinking people would want to know who made this claim. I've made an edit that I believe resolves this issue. — GabeMc (talk) 02:27, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Which thirty hours later resulted in this thread, a subject I cannot remember being challenged in years, if ever. — GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment References to BBC News are inconsistent. Some use BBC while others use BBC News. Also think that publisher should be BBC and work BBC News. Keith D (talk) 23:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, good eye. I have made the useage consistent throughout, preferring BBC News as the publisher, per two other related FAs (The Beatles and John Lennon, for project consistency) and a previous FA suggestion by Brianboulton. If I used the "work" field, BBC News would be italicised, which, as a non-print source would be in error. — GabeMc (talk) 00:29, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

• small quibble As of this revision refs #28, 38, and 44 are showing harv errors. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:41, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

These are now fixed, thanks for the catch and for taking the time to help! — GabeMc (talk) 21:28, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Image review by Noleander

• General: Should add {{personality rights}} to the images. May not be an FA requirement, but a good thing to do.

I would be happy to, will work on this later tonight. — GabeMc (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC) Accomplished. GabeMc talk, 07:39, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

• File:Paul McCartney black and white 2010.jpg - Okay
• File:20 forthlin road.jpg - Can you check Freedom of Panorama in UK? Buildings/architecture may be an issue.

As far as I know, images of buildings taken from public streets are covered in England by FoP, however, I claim to be no expert on this matter. — GabeMc (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

• File:Paul, George & John.png - Can you supply some more detail on this license? It is in dutch, and I don't (yet) see where the photographer gave up the copyright.

Well, this site says: "All of the images in the archive as the source of sound and image, are to be used under Creative Commons license". Not sure if that is enough, if you think it wiser to just remove the image I would be happy to do so. — GabeMc (talk) 22:28, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I've now swapped out File:Paul, George & John.png for File:The Beatles in America.JPG, a public domain image. — GabeMc (talk) 01:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Okay. --Noleander (talk) 06:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

• File:Paul McCartney during a Wings concert, 1976.jpg - Okay.
• File:Ringo Starr e Paul Mcartney - E3 2009.jpg - Okay
• File:Paul McCartney live in Dublin.jpg - Okay
• File:Paul McCartney landmines campaign.jpg - Okay
• File:Paul McCartney with Linda McCartney - Wings - 1976.jpg - Okay; although I do not have access to OTRS so I cannot validate that aspect.
• File:Paul McCartney on stage in Prague.jpg - Okay
• File:Mccartney gershwin.png - I dont see an explicit statement that the photographer/videographer is a US govmt employee. The image is on a govmt site: but who is the photographer?

This is a tough one. All the other images on this site are credited to "Official White House Photo by Samantha Appleton". The image in question, is actually a screenshot from a video credited to www.whitehouse.gov, though clearly PBS was also involved in the filming or maybe just the airing. So is the screenshot the property of PBS or the White House? If you think it would be better to just remove it and/or replace it with one from the same source yet explicitly credited to Samantha Appleton I cetainly will. — GabeMc (talk) 22:42, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, it is probably safer to just use one of the still photos from that web site, since the photographer is named. --Noleander (talk) 06:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Since the only other two images on the site that include McCartney aren't that useful, and the section really does not need another image anyway, I deleted File:Mccartney gershwin.png from the article to resolve this concern. GabeMc talk, 07:39, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

• File:Paul McCartney Arms.svg - Okay.

End Noleander image review. --Noleander (talk) 17:52, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your time and helpful advice. GabeMc talk, 07:39, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support (by contributor) - I've been helping out a little with this FAC, but since none of my contributions have been very significant (mostly punctuation fixes, in fact), I believe I'm qualified to !vote. The article has greatly improved in the past few weeks, and I believe it now meets all the Featured Article criteria. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 03:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Source spot check Having failed to complete my editorial comments above (pressure of other things, and not reluctance), I think I owe it to the nominator to volunteer to do the requested spot check of sources. I shall be at the British Library on Thursday this week, and will order the necessary books. If anyone else gets in first I shall make way. Tim riley (talk) 15:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Later: I have ordered Harry 2002 The Paul McCartney Encyclopedia, Benitez 2010 The Words and Music of Paul McCartney: The Solo Years and MacDonald 2005 Revolution in the Head: The Beatles' Records and the Sixties. Review to follow on Thursday. Tim riley (talk) 16:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Tim Riley! ~ GabeMc (talk) 20:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment: While a lot of hard work has obviously gone into the substance, this article requires a serious, thorough copyedit. It is just chockful of grammatical errors (punctuation appears to be a particular problem). There are also many instances of poor handling of quotes. Here's a typical example of a problem that occurs at least a dozen times:

MacDonald considers McCartney's Mellotron intro on "Strawberry Fields Forever" a "main feature" of the song's "texture".

Quoting things as simple as "main feature" and "texture"—and two of those in a single sentence? That may be suitable for a Zagat guide, but not an encyclopedia article. Again, that's one example of many. N.B.: I happened to pull that example from the very brief Keyboards subsection, in which there are no less than five grammatical errors, most of them involving punctuation. An outside copyeditor needs to be brought in to give the whole thing a fresh eye.—DCGeist (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to comment DCGeist! I agree and I've fixed (with a paraphrase) the specific example you gave above and I would be happy to fix any other specific examples you are willing to bring to my attention. ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:46, 25 June 2012 (UTC) I will go through the article tonight and paraphrase as many unneeded quotes as I can. I'll also work on the punctuation issues you've mentioned, though I must admit that I find your comment in that regard somewhat vague as to what specifically is in error, RE:punctuation. Any specific examples and suggestions you are willing to provide would be most helpful. Thanks again! ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:09, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Since your above comment from the 25th, I've gone through the article top to bottom, and I've paraphrased as much of the quoted material that seemed to need paraphrasing. I don't really see any more of the "quote" issue you commented on above, but if you see anymore, please do let me know so that I may resolve the issue. Thanks again for your contribution to this FAC. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I see that, with one exception, all of the grammatical errors in the sample Keyboards subsection have been corrected. It's not clear to me if you or GoingBatty are responsible for the corrections. At any rate, if you wish, I can recommend to you a few online guides to proper comma usage. The improper use of commas was the primary grammar problem I saw in Keyboards, and I continue to observe it (along with other misused punctuation) throughout the article.

For the moment, here is the remaining error in Keyboards, which resulted from an attempt to correct a misused comma:

McCartney played piano on several Beatles songs including: "Every Little Thing", "She's a Woman"...and "The Long and Winding Road".

Except for series that encompass one or more grammatically complete clauses, use either a colon or an expression such as such as, for example, or including, but not both to introduce a series. In the present case, either of the following would be grammatically correct:

McCartney played piano on several Beatles songs including "Every Little Thing", "She's a Woman"...and "The Long and Winding Road".

McCartney played piano on several Beatles songs: "Every Little Thing", "She's a Woman"...and "The Long and Winding Road".

I hope your efforts to recruit a copyeditor to go over the whole piece pan out.—DCGeist (talk) 17:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the specific tip DCGeist, I am sure it will prove helpful. I would appreciate links to any online guides you find useful. I'll go through the article with that specific tip in mind, thanks again! ~ GabeMc (talk) 21:09, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Source spot-check

I have checked for accuracy of citation and innocence of close paraphrase against Benitez, Macdonald, and Harry (2002).

• Benitez: 6, 8, 38, 63, 66, 67, 68, 69, 77, 80, 81, 82, 117, 139, 159, 161 and 171 – all fine
• MacDonald: 137, 138, 148, 150, 152, 153, 158, 160, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 170, 175 and 177 – all fine
• Harry 2002: 1, 6, 16, 29, 54, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 65, 70, 71, 72, 75, 76, 78, 79, 88, 92, 93, 95, 96, 97, 100, 103, 104, 105, 111, 113, 114, 115, 116, 121, 174, 178, 186, 200, 202, 203, 216, 217, 218, 219, 256, 257, 258, 259, 262, 265, 266, 267, 268, 280, 282, 287, 288, 294, 296, 298, 326, 329, 331 and 332 – I admit to a certain amount of skipping towards the end of this very large sample, but I checked the majority against the source. The only query I have is at ref 71, where, unless I'm looking straight through it, the source does not say that this was PMcC's first time singing Beatles songs with Wings, nor that there was a 2-hour set list.

RE: Harry, 2002, p.848–50. On page 848, he writes "a two hour show with approximately 30 numbers". You are correct to say that Harry does not explicitly state that this was the first time Macca played Beatles songs live, but he does include his set-lists from prior tours that include no Beatles songs, and the set-list he provides for the tour in question does in fact contain five Beatles songs. Also, Ingham, 2009, p.106, states that in the previous tour, the band "scupulously avoid[ed] Beatles songs", and on p.107, while describing the tour in question, he writes: "featuring a modest handful of McCartney's Beatle tunes". Also, McGee, 2003, p.85 states: "Paul decided it would be a mistake not to ... [perform] a few Beatles songs". In Blaney, 2007, p.116: "And for the first time, McCartney included songs associated with the Beatles, something he'd been unwilling to do previously". I've added these sources as in-line cites to the statement in question, which I believe resolves this isssue. Please correct me if I am wrong about this. Thanks for taking the time to help! ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Fine. Tim riley (talk) 10:31, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Otherwise I am most impressed with the precision and clarity of the citations. – Tim riley (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment, and for your time and thoroughness Tim Riley! Much appreciated! ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Noleander

Lead

• Quote attrib? - "Guinness World Records as the "most successful composer and recording artist of all time", with 60 gold discs and sales of over 100 million albums and 100 million singles, and "the most successful songwriter" ..." - It is good to attrib subjective opinions like this; but do both quotes come from Guinness?

Yes, both quotes are from Guinness. ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Childhood

• Wording: "..., where his mother, Mary (née Mohin), had twelve years earlier qualified to practise as a nurse...." - The 'had 12 yrs earlier" seems a bit awkward. Maybe simpler just to say "His mother was a nurse" or similar. The 12 yrs may cause more problems than it solves.

Great suggestion, I believe this is now resolved. ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Sentence too long: - "Paul has one brother, Michael, born 7 January 1944, and though they were baptised in their mother's Roman Catholic faith, religion was not emphasised in their household; Jim was a Protestant turned agnostic who felt Catholic schools sacrificed the education of their students for the sake of their religious teachings." - Break into 2: (1) he had a brother; and (2) religion was not emphasized because agnostic, although they were baptized. Not reversal of sequence in latter.

Fixed (by another editor). ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: " By 1952, he was at Joseph Williams Junior School." - Odd wording. Just say "He attended JWJS from 19xx to 19xx" or similar.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• And then?: "he met George Harrison, who had also passed .." - Did they start a friendship at that point? Did they attend the same school? GH is mentioned then dropped.

Good point. I've fleshed out some detail there, to make it clear that the two became friends right off. ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: "McCartney's father was a trumpet player and pianist who encouraged his sons to be musical, having led Jim Mac's Jazz Band in the 1920s ..." - The phrase "having led" is awkward: leading the JMJB is not a direct cause of encouragement. Suggest reword to be simpler.

Great suggestion, I believe this issue is now resolved. ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Verbose: "guitar and, after some adjustments, .." - Not sure "after some adjustments" is needed.

Agreed, I removed the text string "after some adjustments". ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: "and has stated that Little Richard was his idol .." - The "has" is not needed. May be better as "and Little Richard was his idol ..."

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Quarrymen

• Define: "and his skiffle band, " - Most readers (US?) will not know that term: can a couple words be added here to explain so those readers dont have to click on the link?

Actually, skiffle originated in the US so the assumption that US readers will be ignorant about it is like saying UK readers will need Jazz or Blues music explained to them. Also, the Quarrymen played a mix of skiffle and rock-n-roll, not only skiffle tunes, so to call them a skiffle band is not as accurate a description as could be IMO. At any rate, per your suggestion, I've copyedited the section for balance, and I've added some detail on what skiffle is, and made clear that rock-n-roll was also a significant aspect of the Quarrymen repertoire. Though really, this does seem to beg the question, "why not explain what rock and roll is as well". So this addition could lead to excessive detail, we shall see. ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:26, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: "recruited prior to the first of five engagements ..." - No need to say "the first". May be simpler to write "recruited before a five-engagement tour of Germany" or similar.

Fixed. Though for clarification, they weren't touring Germany, they were booked as a resident band in Hamburg. I think this is made clear in the article now. ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:26, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

60-70

• Wording: "From August 1960, the Beatles were booked by Allan Williams to perform in Hamburg." - Confusing. Was AW their agent starting in 1960? Hamburg was a single event, true, so "From 1960.." doesnt apply to a single event. Maybe rewrite as "They were represented by agent AW starting in 1960. His first booking for them was a series of performances in Hamburg extending over a 2 year period..."

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: " Their fans' frenetic glorification became known as "Beatlemania"; during which McCartney was dubbed the "cute Beatle"." - "during which" requires a time span. But " frenetic glorification" is more of an attitude than a time span. Rewrite as "known as BM. McCartney was dubbed the CB because ... ". See if sources explain why he was considered cute, or at least ID the first person to do so.

Correct me here if I am wrong, but isn't the time span for BM established in the preceeding sentence? "they became increasingly popular in the UK in 1963 and in the US a year later", also I think why he was dubbed the "cute Beatle" is self-explanatory, not? If Macca were called the "tall Beatle", or the "short Beatle" or the "big Beatle" then this would be easier to quantify. As far as finding the first person ever to refer to Macca as the "cute Beatle", well, that sounds like a wild-goose chase to me. Sure, I'll look for it, and I'll do my best to find it, but I'm not gonna spend hours and hours on this one trivial bit, hope you understand. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Double negative?: " their first recording that did not include more than one band member." - Rewrite as ".. their first recording that involved only a single band member."

I agree, great suggestion, this is now fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Importance: " After the song's recording McCartney contacted the BBC Radiophonic Workshop in Maida Vale, London, to inquire about recording an electronic version of the song; he never followed up." - It seems odd to have a fact about what did not happen. Either remove, or explain why that is significant: was the absence of an electr version later important to the band? If so, why?

I removed insignificant material per your suggestion. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Too long: "When visiting artist friend John Dunbar's flat in London, McCartney would bring along tapes he had compiled at then girlfriend Jane Asher's home, mixes of various songs, musical pieces and comments made by McCartney that Dick James made into a demo for him." - Too much going on. Break this into 2 or 3 discrete thoughts.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Grammar: "...and splicing the various loops together, which he referred to as "electronic symphonies"." - This implies that the individual loops (pieces) were called symphonies; when you mean the final spliced product was called that. Reword.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Ellipses? - You have two adjacent quotes: "a neoclassical tour de force"; "a true hybrid, conforming to no recognizable style or genre of song." - if those are from the same source, it is much better to use ellipses ... between them, in a single set of quote marks.

I agree, and normally I would have, but in this case, the quote frags are 52 pages apart in the book. Can we omit 52 pages and use ellipses to connect them. I've fixed this per your suggestion, until further clarification, assuming you are correct in this instance. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Movie? - "... the group were filmed for a promotional trailer for the animated film Yellow Submarine, " - Was is more emphasis placed on the trailer vs the feature length movie?

The Beatles had absolutely nothing to do with the feature film other than the trailer, and the film's use of four unreleased recordings (among the other Beatle songs used in the film). What detail if any, would you suggest I add here? ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Identify subject: "Generally admired by critics for its visual style, humour and music, seven months later, the film's soundtrack album was issued to a less enthusiastic response." - The "greatly admired" is referring to the subject of the prior sentence: but the target should be re-identified in this sentence. Also, is "greatly admired" referring to the trailer or the full movie?

Fixed (by another editor). ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Hackneyed: "relations within the band were deteriorating quickly,.." - no need for "quickly" here.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Repetative: " the situation became particularly strenuous during the recording of The Beatles, commonly known as The White Album, and especially the following ..." - No need to say "particularly" or "especially" - too editorial. Just state the facts (specific arguments or differences of viewpoint or quotes) and let the reader figure it out.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Detail? - "McCartney soon found himself pitted against his bandmates, leading him to .." - If the band was just disintegrating (all 4 equally responsible) need to reword. But if it really was 1-against-3, then a few words of explanation are required here: What specifically about Pauls vision/behavior were the other 3 opposed to?

I think this is now sufficiently detailed, let me know if you think it requires more details. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Who? - "McCartney's representation, his in-laws the Eastmans, .." - Did an entire family represent him legally? Better to name an individual, if there was one.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Detail: - "stating that unresolved legal disputes would make him "feel like a complete hypocrite waving and smiling with [Harrison and Starr] at a fake reunion." - If PM was not on speaking terms with 2 or 3 of the band members from 1970 to 1988, that should be mentioned explicitly.

It's not as simple as, "PM was not on speaking terms with 2 or 3 of the band members from 1970 to 1988", at various times during that period, he was on speaking terms with all three, just not specifically in 1988 when an active lawsuit was pending. To accurately document when Macca was and when Macca wasn't speaking to G, J, or R, and the various sporadic lawsuits filed against each other and others would require a topical article of it's own, IMO, perhaps this should be covered with the appropriate amount of detail at the Beatles, or the Beatles lawsuits. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Confusing: "Before their break-up in 1970 they produced what some critics consider to be their finest material, .." - Implies that they produced (joint?) material after the breakup. Are you trying to compare their solo works after the breakup with the joint works before? If so, clarify.

I think this is now clarified and fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Parenthesis: " which was the band's most successful single.." - Try to put that in parenthesis, so it doesnt interrupt the list so much.

Fixed, I just removed the clause as the commercial success of "Hey Jude" is well covered later in the article. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

1970–1981

• Wording: " in which the band played almost entirely Wings and McCartney solo material with the exception of a few covers," - The word "almost" can be omitted, since "with the exception" covers that.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Who? - "Recorded in 1973, after the departure of guitarist Henry McCullough and drummer .." - It seems strange to name musicians not involved; wouldn't it be more useful to name their replacements?

Thing is, they were not replaced for the album of which the graph is speaking to, BOTR, but you make a great point about the lack of clarity there, so I believe I have now resolved this issue with a graph restructure. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Album? - "McCartney released Thrillington, an orchestral ... " - Add word "album" so readers dont think it is a single piece.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Change? - " that included the live début of the Beatles songs ..." - It sounds like there was a major shift from "avoid playing B songs" to "it is okay to play a few". Do the sources say when that change happened? or why?

Yes they do. The article makes clear that it was during Wings' 1975-76 tour that Macca was first willing to play Beatles songs live, "The tour marked the first time McCartney was willing to perform Beatles songs live". The "why" part is less clear, though one of the cites for the claim, McGee 2003, p. 85 says: "Paul decided it would be a mistake not to ... [perform] a few Beatles songs". I could certainly add more detail there if you think it's needed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Needed? - "The album also contained the songs "Waterfalls", "Temporary Secretary" and "One of These Days".[81]" - Not sure that sentence is helpful.

Fixed, removed unhelpful sentence. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Why attribute? - "According to Benitez, by 1979, McCartney felt he had accomplished ..." - The attribution to Benitez is awkward; can it be eliminated? or is there some dispute or POV about the observation?

I agree, and I removed the unneeded attribution. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

1982–1990

• Wording: "what would be McCartney's most recent US number one .." - What does "most recent" mean here? Does that mean his final #1 (as of 2012)? If so, reword to make clearer.

The "most recent" language comes from User:Wasted Time R's above FAC suggestion that the article needs to make clear when Macca's most recent hits were. You can view the subsequent discussion here with them here, which occured when another editor, User:Evanh2008 questioned this language at the McCartney talk page based on WP:RECENT. Do you recommend changing "most recent" to "as of 2012", or adding "as of 2012" while retaining "most recent"? ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Dated: "The Pipes of Peace LP is McCartney's most recently recorded RIAA certified .." - reword so wont be out of date if he records another. See WP:DATED.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Dated: " the song is McCartney's most recent US top-ten single. "

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Clarify: "released Снова в СССР, a Russia-only album ..." - does that mean released only in Russia? or in the russian language? Maybe say "an album released only in Russia .."

Clarified. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Long sentence: " In 1989 he joined forces with fellow Merseysiders Gerry Marsden of Gerry and the Pacemakers and Holly Johnson of Frankie Goes to Hollywood to record an updated version of "Ferry Cross the Mersey" to generate money for the appeal fund of the Hillsborough disaster, which occurred in April that year when ninety-five Liverpool F.C. fans died as a result of their injuries." Break in two? Consider dropping the two band names.

Fixed via trimming, I don't think it still needs to be broken in two, please correct me if I am wrong. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Dated: " remains McCartney's most recent UK number-one album".

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

91-2000

• "In 1991 McCartney ventured into orchestral music, when.." - I think the comma should be removed.

Rephrased. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: "He collaborated with Carl Davis to release Liverpool Oratorio; .." - (1) say "composer Carl Davis"; (2) "release" is not the best verb for a live classical premier: try "mount" or "produce" or ??

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Grammar: " He collaborated with Carl Davis to release Liverpool Oratorio; involving opera singers..." - Break into 2 sentences at the semicolon. Maybe "The performance featured opera singers ...". Also, if it was never performed live again, perhaps that could be mentioned?

Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The article now also mentions that after the London premier, it was performed around the world, and that it was a UK #1 classical album. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• " In response, McCartney wrote a defensive letter to the paper, which they published, where he states: " - (1) I'd remove "defensive" and let the letter speak for itself; (2) "states" - Should be past tense; (3) "wrote" and "published" are repetitious. How about "The paper published a letter McCartney submitted in response in which he stated: ..."

Great suggestion, now implemented. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• First? - "which released their first electronica album together, .." - Was it their only? "first" implies multiple. ... Ah, I see there is another one in year 2000. Never mind.

Never minded. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: " ... was followed by the New World Tour, which produced the LP Paul Is Live later that year." - Produced is ambiguous in a music context. Consider "generated" or "occasioned" or "gave rise to".

Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Inform vs happen: "and in December 1996 he was informed that he was to be named in the 1997 New Year Honours and knighted for services to music. His ceremony took place in March 1997." - Unless there is a good reason, I would drop the 1996 informing & only state the fact of the 1997 ceremony.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Dated: " His latest UK top-ten album, it ..."

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• " something he said he had planning for years" - Remove "he said" unless there is some suspicion of POV or inaccuracy.

Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Remove commas: "He contributed a song, "Nova", to a tribute album ..." - Consider "He contributed the song "Nova" to ... ".

Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Long sentence: "In May 2000 he was awarded a Fellowship by the British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors, and in August he released the electronica album, Liverpool Sound Collage with Super Furry Animals and Youth, utilising the sound collage and musique concrète techniques that fascinated him in the mid-1960s." - Break into two.

Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

2001-pr

• Wording: "Having witnessed the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks from the .." - Would it be better as "After witnessing the .."?

I agree. Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Long sentence: "Having witnessed the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks from the JFK airport tarmac, McCartney was inspired to take a lead role in organising the Concert for New York City, and his studio album release in November of that year, Driving Rain, included the song "Freedom", written in response to the tragedy." - Break into two at "City, and"; those are two separate thoughts & at least merit a semicolon.

Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Clarify: "McCartney's top-grossing Driving World Tour included stops .." - (1) is that the same tour from the previous sentence? If so, introduce the name in the prior sentence; (2) What does "top grossing" mean? Top for for any artist in the year of 2003? Or top for PM's personal career?

Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Year? - "He has also participated in the National Football League's Super Bowl, performing "Freedom" in the pre-game show for Super Bowl XXXVI[126] and headlining the halftime show at Super Bowl XXXIX" - Probably best for readers to state the year, not the SB number. As in "for 2004's SB " or "in the 2006 SB", etc. But it is not a big deal.

I added the years. Super Bowls are idiomatically referred to by Roman numerals. Because the American football season covers two years, it would reduce clarity to use a term like "2002 Super Bowl". I think both the year and Roman numeral are useful, to clear things up for non-football fans and those outside the U.S. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: "He has also participated in .." - (1) No need for "has"; (2) In general, the word "also" should be avoided, it usually adds nothing to an encyclopedia article. Everything is "also" to the event before it. Just omit "also" everywhere unless there is a compelling reason for it.

Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Ambiguous: " the rock album Memory Almost Full followed in 2007 and in 2008, his third Fireman release.." - It reads as if the MAF album was released in two separate years.

Fixed. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: " Among the last of the great classic rock artists who had not previously made their catalogue available online .." - better as "Among the last of the classic rock bands to make their music available online ...". Also, did PM have is solo work available on iTunes before 2010? or was it both the Beatles and his solo work that was withheld?

Fixed wording. PM did have his solo work available on iTunes before 2010, at least since Memory Almost Full. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: "In 2011 McCartney released the original orchestral score ..." - (1) no need for "original"; (2) The start of the sentence should indicate that it is for a ballet or dance. Maybe "In 2011, Mc wrote his first music for ballet, in collaboration with .PM. They wrote the score for OK, under a commission from ..." or similar.

Tweaked. szyslak (t) 16:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I tweked it a bit further, linking to Dance versus using ballet twice in the sentence. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Dated: "McCartney remains one of the world's top draws; ..."

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Ambiguous: " playing to over 100,000 people, his two performances .." - 100K each performance? or total?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Musicianship

• Simpler: "McCartney has stated that he does not use .." -> "Mc does not use .." unless some good reason

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Simpler: "bass during live shows and when recording, .." -> "bass, ..."

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• When? ; ".. around this time for that reason .." - When is "this time?"

Fixed/clarified. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: "McCartney confirms the influence of Motown on his playing, in particular that of James Jamerson, whom he described as a hero and included with Brian Wilson as his most significant bass influences." - Reword to something like "McC was strongly influenced by Motown, in particular by JJ. McC was also influenced by [ describe here BW's style] BW." I presume BW is not Motown, so separate sentence is better.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Simpler: "He has also mentioned Stanley Clarke as a favourite bassist" -> "Another favorite bassist is SC".

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Acoustic

• Simpler: " on many, if not most of his acoustic recordings " -> " on many of his acoustic recordings"

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Electric

• Clarify: "McCartney said this of the song: "If I had to pick one electric guitar it would be this." - Shouldn't "song" be changed to "guitar"?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: "He also contributed what .." - "also" not needed.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Dated: "In recent years he has primarily used .."

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Vocals

• looks good

Thanks. ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Keyboards

• Clarify: "MacDonald considers the piano part in "Lady Madonna" as played in the style of Fats Domino and he describes "Let It Be" as having a gospel rhythm." - (1) "as played" is not optimal. Mabye "to be in the style of FD"; (2) Who is "he" refereing to: FD or MacDonald?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Drums

• Link - " the Beatles songs "Back in the U.S.S.R.", "Dear Prudence", " - should link DP song.

Linked. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Early Influences

• Ambiguous: "Along with Perkins, McCartney calls Little Richard an idol .." - Do both Perkins and PM call LR an idol? Or does PM consider both Perkins and LR to be idols?

Fixed/clarified. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Misleading: "McCartney calls Little Richard an idol and freely admits that his own penchant for the falsetto vocalization .." - "freely admits" should be used by talking about a shameful or sinister act, but this is talking about a legitimate artistic inspiration. Maybe replace with "McCartney calls Little Richard an idol whose falsetto voc inspired PM's own vocal techniques" or similar.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Creative outlets

• So what? - " he passed one subject – Art" - Need to know how many subjects, approx, there were total. Two? twenty?

Removed, I can't pin down exactly how many exams he took, some sources say only two, and some sources say he passed English, not art. I added some similar detail with sourcing. ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Awkward: "brought McCartney into contact with Barry Miles, whose underground newspaper, the International Times, McCartney helped to start." - Maybe better as "brought McCartney into contact with Barry Miles. PM later helped Miles start the u.n. IT." or similar. Or maybe the original is okay; not sure.

I think this looks good now. ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Year? - "While living at then girlfriend Jane Asher's parent's house, .." - when is this?

Clarified. ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Year? - "He later wrote and released several pieces of modern classical .." - when?

Fixed/clarified.

• Wording - " Queen Elizabeth II officially opened the ..." - Not sure "officially" is needed. Maybe "QEII presided over the opening of ..." or similar.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Painting

• Simplify: "In 1966, McCartney met gallery-owner Robert Fraser, whose flat was visited by many well-known artists, some of which McCartney met, including; Andy Warhol, Claes Oldenburg, Peter Blake, and Richard Hamilton, and it was at Fraser's flat where McCartney first learned about art appreciation." - probably should be a colon after "including". - Consider rewording to "In 1966, McCartney met gallery-owner Robert Fraser, and it was at Fraser's flat where McCartney first learned about art appreciation. Through Fraser [and other art scene venues] PM met A, B, C..".

Reworded. Clarification request, according to User:DCGeist's FAC comment above, "Except for series that encompass one or more grammatically complete clauses, use either a colon or an expression such as such as, for example, or including, but not both to introduce a series.", so, what is best practice in that regard? ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

My point was that the semicolon was not correct. The colon is not ideal either. Best is "including A, B, .." without thee colon. --Noleander (talk) 22:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Simplify: " The first UK exhibition of his work was opened in Bristol, England with more than 50 paintings on display. " - " The first UK exhibition of his work was 50 paintings [in a gallery] in Bristol, England."

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Move: - "McCartney had previously believed that "only people that had been to art school were allowed to paint" – as Lennon had." - That sentence is probably better up at the start of the paragraph near the "started painting in 1983" sentence.

I agree, moved. ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Ambiguous: " he is the first major rock star in the world to do so." - first to design any stamp? or first to design stamps for Isle of Man?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Clarify: " Ono and McCartney presented art exhibitions in New York and London." - Were these joint exhibitions? Or separate but happened to be at the same time?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Writing

• Clarify: "his father was interested in crosswords and invited he and his brother" - Who is "he"? the father or PM?\

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Clarify: "about the death of his childhood friend, Ivan Vaughan." - Did IV die in childhood? or in adulthood?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Film

• Clarify: " an interview by Mary McCartney with her father. " - Who was the interviewer & the interviewee?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 06:14, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

lifestyle

• Wording: "McCartney's introduction to drugs started in Hamburg, Germany; ..." - Introductions are events and should not "start". Better as "McCartney's was introduced to drugs in Hamburg, Germany; "

Thanks, great point. Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 06:14, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Wording: " when the Beatles would play for long hours they were often using Preludin to maintain energy, .." - try "They would often use Preludin to maintain their energy when performing for long periods of time."

Again, fine suggestion, thanks for taking the time to teach me! Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 06:14, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Who? - "when the Beatles were introduced to marijuana by Bob Dylan in a New York hotel room in 1964.[211] His use of the drug .." - Is "His use.." referring to Dylan or PM?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 06:14, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Simplify: "McCartney admits that he used the drug .." -> "McCartney used the drug .."

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 06:14, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Girlfriends & Wives

• " he had become involved with another woman, Francie Schwartz. .." - I take it FS does not warrant her own paragraph here?

No she does not, there involvement together was limited to a brief sexual fling, she is not notable. ~ GabeMc (talk) 06:22, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• "see artists such as: Fabian, Bobby Darin, .. " - No need for a colon here.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 06:22, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Beatles

• Move footnote: "On 24 April 1976,[296] the two were watching an episode .." - Move FN 296 to end of sentence.
• Rewords: "In McCartney's effort to avoid talking with him only about business, they often spoke of cats, baking bread, or babies." - Awkward. Rewrite: "In an effort to avoid ..." ?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Improve? "He was later criticised for what appeared, when published, to be a superficial response: "It's a drag".[296] He later explained, .." - Maybe: "He responded "It's a drag". He was later criticised for what appeared to be a superficial response. He later explained .."

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Improve: "Harrison said this about working with McCartney: .." - The "said this" doesnt sound correct to me. Maybe: "Discussing his relationship with Mc, Harrison said: .."

Great suggestions, this is now fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• So what? - "Harrison spent his last days in a Hollywood Hills mansion that was once leased by McCartney." - Unless PM donated the building for Harrison's use, that seems confusing & misleading. Implies charity, when it may have been just coincidence.

Good point, trivial datum removed, issue resolved. ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• No attrib needed: "According Harry, Starr once described ..." - No need to attribute to H unless there is some bias or dispute involved. The attribution interrupts the flow.

I agree, this is now fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Recognition

• Pronoun? - " from the Guinness Book of Records Hall of Fame, who presented him .." - Should that be "which presented him" ?

I agree, fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Move parenthetical comment: "In the US, as a songwriter or co-writer, McCartney is included on 32 number-one singles " -> move ", as a songwriter or co-writer, " after the "singles".

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Footnote? - "Although Elvis Presley has achieved the most UK number-ones as a solo artist with eighteen" - No need to mention records that are held by others. Suggest move this into a footnote.

Moved to Notes section. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• No quote: "the "Fab Four" to receive a .." - I believe quotes are not needed there, since it is a very common nickname (vs quoting a specific individual's statement).

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Business

• Clarify: "..making him Britain's highest media earner." - What is a "media earner"? Someone who is paid in books? Maybe "highest income within the media professions" or similar.

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Clarify: "... with Parlophone and Capitol retaining label billing." - What does that mean?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Who released: " continued to be released by Apple Records until Wings' "Junior's Farm"/"Sally G" single,.." - If not Apple, who released JFSG?

Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Explain: "Despite the lack of publishing rights to most of his Beatles songs, McCartney continues..." - This seems like an important fact that should be higher up in the Business section, instead of buried in the final paragraph. I'm not a music person, and I do not quite grasp this. Add more words to explain. Maybe "From 1963 to 1968, when the B published most of their hits, the rights to publish their songs where sold/given to NL. As other artists recorded B songs, royalties were paid to NL, which passed on 1/3 to 1/2 to the individual members of the Bs. NL was sold to MJ, and then to Sony. As of 2012, the B catalog is still owned by Sony." I don't know what I'm talking about here, but you get the idea.

I guess I disagree a bit on this one, and to me, it's nice right at the end to wrap up the story. I believe the two graphs in the sub-section spell out the situation well. It's buried in the last graph, and not higher up in the Business section because essentially, Macca had little or nothing to do business wise with NS, other than writing songs published by them, and temporarily owning some of their stock. He has since only reduced his business position in NS, now defunct/absorbed by Sony/ATV. Please correct me if you disagree, I would be happy to add deatil to improve the section. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion

• Great article! Leaning to Support, once the above are addressed.

Thanks for the compliment, and the thorough and insightful review. ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 16:26, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to help out Noleander, your comments are much appreciated. ~ GabeMc (talk) 02:56, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Support – the edits made in response to the many suggestions above have much improved the prose of this article – just about enough to meet the FAC standard, I think – and there was never any doubt about the comprehensiveness and depth of the research. I was particularly impressed by the nominator's method of citing references, which is probably the clearest I have run across (I may have to rethink my own methods after this) and makes plain for all to see how thoroughly the nominator has absorbed his/her sources and set the information out accessibly and logically. Well done! Tim riley (talk) 14:42, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments from JG66

Hi GabeMc. A few specific points about the text, which reads pretty well for the most part, I think:

• Under The Quarrymen, does "St. Peter's Church" need the point in St − seems very American English.

Good catch, they wouldn't use that point in the UK. Fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 07:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Is there really any need to define skiffle? There's a link to the genre of course, and the definition bogs down the discussion, in my opinion.

It was added at the specific request of another reviewer, so I'm not sure what I should do with this one. FTR, I'm fine either way, but it's also not too ridiculous to educate the reader here in what is a realtively small section anyway. ~ GabeMc (talk) 07:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

You're right, it's not too ridiculous, and I understand it's not easy when another reviewer has suggested something different. No big deal, but I wonder whether the sentence might read better without the bit explaining "that originated as a musical form in the US in the first half of the twentieth century". Just a thought. JG66 (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I kinda like the "made in the US" bit, as I think many readers assume skiffle originated in the UK, and because it makes clear that the Quarrymen's repertoire consisted of rock & roll and skiffle, both with origins in the US. ~ GabeMc (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Is a hyphen necessary in "mid-August 1960"? It wouldn't be needed if the timespan were "early" or "late" August 1960.

Good catch, fixed. ~ GabeMc (talk) 07:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Under The Beatles, not quite sure what "upon returns to Liverpool at the Cavern Clujb" means. The "upon returns" phrase jars somewhat.

Clarified, I believe. ~ GabeMc (talk) 07:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Those are a few specifics, but more generally:

The Beatles

• The segue from "Yesterday" discussion into the one regarding visiting John Dunbar's flat comes as a bit of a surprise; a definite hiccup, so to speak. Seeing that the text goes from a such a speedy, generalised approach in the previous paragraph and through the previous sentences in this one, it feels like we get bogged down in the tapes discussion. I can't help thinking that a very brief mention of McCartney's early experimental work is needed here, and then a more detailed subsection for these experiments could be included under Musicianship. As I say, the change in pace is very noticeable.

Good point. I agree, and others have mentioned it as well. The material is much better as a Musicianship sub-section, and it is one now. ~ GabeMc (talk) 08:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Another factor in this issue is that while some detail has been given to Mac's experiments with backwards tapes, there is no actual mention of "We Can Work It Out", Rubber Soul, Revolver and Sgt. Pepper's until the very end of the Beatles subsection. I know that MacDonald and others have noted how Mac was distracted to some extent during 1964 by his relationship with Jane Asher, while Lennon dominated the songwriting at that point, so it's a surprise to see those Beatles works not getting a mention earlier in the article − they're works where Mac really stated a claim to greatness, no? This becomes increasingly more obvious, as Magical Mystery Tour and Yellow Submarine each get a surprising amount of attention. Just a suggestion, but I think the text at this point should discuss Mac's growing urbane sophistication (plenty in Miles, MacDonald, Sounes, etc); he's really the arty Beatle-about-town in '65−67. Rubber Soul, Revolver etc could be given as examples of this change.

I mentioned "We Can Work it Out" earlier in the section. As far as more details on specific albums, I hate to invoke sub-articles, but that all sounds like stuff that should be covered in detail at the Beatles, or the appropriate album/song page. This overview article is already getting bogged down in detail a bit, IMO. As far as Macca's "claim to greatness". That sounds like WP:NPOV territory to me. His nightlife around London was absolutely typical of any musician his age, at the time, and not particularly notable. Also, some aspects are covered in other sections, if you read the whole article, in totality, that picture is painted, if somewhat vaguely. ~ GabeMc (talk) 08:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sorry − "We Can Work It Out" was there all along. Perhaps I didn't express myself properly, though, in my comments about McCartney's increasing sophistication and its reflection in The Beatles' music. I was referring to Mac's mixing in circles that included Robert Fraser, John Dunbar, Tara Browne, Michelangelo Antonioni, via the Ashers − yes, this was very typical of musicians then, but the point is (as acknowledged by McCartney, Miles, MacDonald and Sounes) he was the only Beatle fully exposed to this influence, living full-time in London and being unmarried and without children. I agree the level of detail in this section needs to be limited, but I'd still say a sentence or two covering this mid-period Beatles development very generally would be a useful addition. Looking back in the article's edit history to about four days ago (wow, you've been busy!), I can see you led from discussion on "Yesterday" to a mention of a possible electric version of the song and on to the recently deleted point about Mac visiting Dunbar and making experimental tapes; while it was right to lose that level of detail, what those extra two sentences did was segue nicely into the mention of "Paperback Writer" being "a satire of pop ambition" and "Eleanor Rigby", "a neoclassical tour de force", and the growing sophistication of McCartney's compositions during the period was implied over the three or more sentences without being stated directly. Now, along with those deleted details, the implication has gone, and I think something does need stating directly on the subject. (Certainly, the flow into that point about "Paperback Writer" and "Eleanor Rigby" seems a bit abrupt.) Again, the lack of any mention of Rubber Soul, Revolver and Sgt Pepp's until the very end of the section is very surprising, in my opinion. And if you are concerned about the article getting bogged down in detail, why those two sentences about the Magical Mystery Tour soundtrack's commercial fate, when "However, the film's soundtrack was more successful." pretty much covers the point? (Don't mean to push the issue − just wasn't sure you understood my original comment.) JG66 (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

As far as this comment, please see your above comment, "The segue from "Yesterday" discussion into the one regarding visiting John Dunbar's flat comes as a bit of a surprise; a definite hiccup, so to speak. Seeing that the text goes from a such a speedy, generalised approach in the previous paragraph and through the previous sentences in this one, it feels like we get bogged down in the tapes discussion. I can't help thinking that a very brief mention of McCartney's early experimental work is needed here, and then a more detailed subsection for these experiments could be included under Musicianship. As I say, the change in pace is very noticeable." So I guess I'm a little confused and seem to be getting a mixed message here from you on this point. I'm not sure how that info could be chopped up while retaining meaning in the parts. FTR, the graph wasn't deleted, I moved it to a sub-section of Musicianship, as you suggested, so to also mention it in the Beatles section would be to introduce redundancy, not? More specifically, what do your suggest I add to the Beatles section that is not already covered in the Musicianship sub-section "Tape loops"? ~ GabeMc (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

This is getting difficult! No, of course, the tape-loops mention wasn't deleted altogether − but deleted (removed) from this section. I understand the message might appear mixed: to go into some detail regarding Dunbar, tape loops and their use in "Tomorrow Never Knows" (as you had it previously) did strike me as a noticeable change of pace, yes, something that could be avoided because you rightly include a section on Musicianship; a general mention of Mac blooming artistically during the Rubber Soul to Pepp's period, through his immersion in London's countercultural scene, might break what I referred to as a "speedy, generalised approach" (not much, though, I'd suggest, if handled deftly), but it is an important point to make in a subsection that serves as an overview of Paul McCartney's Beatles career. And I don't really see that there's any NPOV issues in that, or that any very general mention here might make a later discussion on tape loops redundant. To me, if I were to make a bulleted list of points to cover in this section, a rough sketch, its items would be exactly as you have it until the end of your discussion on "Yesterday". Next point(s) would be the mid-'60s phase culminating in Sgt Pepper's. To repeat and/or clarify what I wrote below last time around, I'm referring here (and in most of the points I raised, I think) to what comes to mind at a particular point in the article − in this case, as one reads about a year in the Beatles chronology: personally, I read the post-"Yesterday" text down to mention of Brian Epstein's death and wonder where discussion of Rubber Soul, Revolver and Sgt Pepper's has got to. Fine, there's an Oh good − there they are moment at the end of the subsection, before Wings, but back when one's reading about 1965−67, it feels like an obvious omission. Again, this feeling is exacerbated by the surprising level of detail given to Magical Mystery Tour: "Released in the UK as a six-track double extended play disc (EP), in the US the material was issued as an identically titled LP ... setting a record for the highest initial sales of any Capitol LP up to that point." (I mean, all up, three sentences discussing MMT's commercial fate ... And who/what is Capitol in the Paul Mac-Beatles story? Point two: he co-wrote "She Loves You", the biggest selling single in the UK for quite a while; the lack of that detail earlier on makes this MMT description even more out of place.) Yellow Sub to some degree also − the phrase "In early 1968, the group were filmed for a promotional trailer" seems unnecessary; the Mac-centric point which you include is that it was "a production based loosely on the imaginary world evoked by McCartney's 1966 composition". (Don't want to throw another spanner in the works, but now I'm wondering about the lack of a mention of "Hey Jude" in '68 ... I know, I'm sure someone else has said delete it!) But to rewind to what I was trying to say in my comment above this one, the sentences that have gone from this section over the last four or more days (possible electric version of "Yesterday"; Dunbar & tapes) did at least serve as a good segue into your discussion of "Paperback Writer" and "Eleanor Rigby", both in the flow of text and also in the implied message of growing sophistication in Mac's songwriting. (There was no explicit mention of Mac's artistic growth or of those '65−67 albums, no, but at least the message was implied.) What's left now is a jump into talking about two singles that weren't from the year discussed previously (1965) that doesn't seem like a natural progression. My suggestion is that the point about Mac's maturing as an artist now needs to be made explicitly somehow, incorporating mention of Rubber Soul, Revolver and Sgt Pepp's. As far as specific text to insert, all I could find − and it serves as inspiration rather than anything necessarily usable, I'm afraid − is from MacDonald p. 153, 1998 edn (discussing We Can Work It Out): "From now on, his partner [McCartney] would be in the ascendant not only as a songwriter, but also as instrumentalist, arranger, producer, and de facto musical director of The Beatles." Sorry, if I had a day to spare I'm sure I could do some research and come up with something succinct to plug the gap. Cheers, JG66 (talk) 13:46, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I've added summary material on Rubber Soul, Revolver, and Sgt. Pepper per your suggestions. I hope this resolves some, or maybe all of your concerns, at least with the Beatles section. ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:57, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, this article has really changed since I last looked at it a few days ago. I would really caution against repeating too much general Beatles history here. The material added on Rubber Soul, Revolver, the end of touring, Sgt. Peppers, etc is mostly not specific to McCartney. It is all material that readers can better find in The Beatles and the individual album articles. This section should be focused on McCartney's role in the Beatles. So to mention that McCartney was the driver behind Magical Mystery Tour is okay, but all the stuff about, say, how the recording process worked on Sgt. Peppers - why is that here? Wasted Time R (talk) 02:50, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Wasted, per your comment, "I would really caution against repeating too much general Beatles history here." Could the same be said for Wings? The added material speaks to the band's growth in general, and to Macca's increased leadership specifically. ~ GabeMc (talk) 03:09, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

McCartney was responsible for almost every aspect of Wings, so I don't have a problem in that respect. But with the Beatles, most of the changes described are just as much John's and George Martin's doing, and to a lesser extent George Harrison's. The reader who doesn't understand this will be misled by this text, and the reader who does understand it doesn't need to see it repeated here. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:40, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Please be more specific with your criticisms. What info was added that does not directly pertain to McCartney, and what specific material do you suggest I remove? ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:23, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, I'll respectfully remind you of your above comments at this FAC Wasted Time R, "The "Wings" section is now longer than the "Beatles" section, which doesn't seem right.", "But I don't think I'd be the only reviewer who thinks that weighting the Wings section more heavily than the Beatles section is backwards". ~ GabeMc (talk) 06:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Further, currently the Beatles section contains 1968 words, the Wings section has 1440. So, I don't think this a WP:UNDUE issue, is it? ~ GabeMc (talk) 09:27, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not a question of length. For example, instead of going on about how the Beatles did not play their Revolver material on tour – which was attributable to many factors and not McCartney specific – you could mention "For No One" and "Here There and Everywhere". The latter is McCartney's favorite of all the Beatles songs he wrote (at least in the interviews I've seen - he talks about the chordal pivot from the bridge back into the verse) and is currently unmentioned in the article. Instead of the long Emerick quote – and from the Lewisohn book I have the impression that it was John, not Paul, who was the driving factor behind trying to produce a different 'sound' in the studio using devices such as ADT – you could mention that "Penny Lane" was McCartney's reflection upon his Liverpool origins and that the distinctive piccolo trumpet part was his inspiration following seeing a Bach concert on TV (foreshadowing his classical music involvement). Also, is McCartney becoming the "de facto musical director of the Beatles" from 1965 on really a consensus view? I've never gotten this impression. This seems like one writer's opinion getting too much weight here. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

The mention of the Revolver material not being able to be played live explicates the Beatles' notable transition from live act, to studio band, the first group ever to do so. I've mentioned "Here There and Everywhere", because as you said, it is one of Macca's personal favs, and "For No One", as MacDonlad describes it as one of Macca's "most perfect pieces"(2005, p.205). I've used a unique and more informative Emerick quote, from his book (with Massey). Lewisohn, though the most reliable source for facts, was never in the studio with the Beatles as was Emerick, who goes on and on in his book, about Macca wanting to experiment and try new recording ideas during Pepper. So you are wrong to assume it was only Lennon who pushed for studio innovation, that is a tired cliché IMO. I've added the detail you suggested on "Penny Lane", good suggestion, thanks. I've also mentioned "She's Leaving Home", per your suggestion. As far as the Lennon-McCartney power struggle. 1) per your comment, "McCartney becoming the "de facto musical director of the Beatles" from 1965", the article says the usurpation began in 1965, not that it was completed. 2) MacDonald is absolutely correct/supported by sources to suggest that the beginning of Macca's usurpation of Lennon's musical dominance was indeed late 1965, the high quality reliable sources widely agree. Lennon had a nervous break-down that year, and he later became addicted to LSD (if that's even technically possible, but Lennon was a massive user, on par with Hendrix and Barrett according to many a RS). Lennon had generally dominated the band's singles until late 1965, and Macca began to dominate the A-sides with their very first release of 1966, "PW/R". Anyway, the article claims that by late 1965 Macca began to usurp Lennon, and that he became de facto leader in 1967, after Epstein's death in August of that year, which the article makes perfectly clear. Wasted, I'll ask you again. What material was added that does not directly pertain to McCartney, and what specific material do you suggest I remove and why? ~ GabeMc (talk) 00:54, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I would remove or greatly condense: the Hamburg period description, "My Bonnie", "Love Me Do", the first list of albums, short promotional films/forerunner of videos, no Revolver in concerts/end of touring (end of touring is currently in three consecutive paragraphs!), the whole Emerick quote (this one doesn't demonstrate any McCartney connection any more than the other one, and I disagree re studio effects - John was obsessed with altering his voice, Paul never was), "Strawberry Fields", the detail on Magical Mystery Tour's commercial results, and the "Between 1965 and their break-up in 1970" sentence (redundant based on what's now before it). You will claim that some of these things, like the end of touring, are very important in band history ... sure, but so are many other things that you haven't included, like that the Beatles were the first band to write all their hit songs, play all their own instruments, put all good songs on albums instead of one or two singles and the rest filler, have high-quality album covers, revolutionize personal style with their long hair, showcase an original sense of humor in press conferences, set records that still hold for simultaneous hits on the US singles chart, have the first really good film vehicle, etc - and I'm only listing things from 1963 and 1964! You cannot possibly relate the whole story of the Beatles here, so my feeling is, don't try. Just relate the story of Paul in the Beatles. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:28, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Nope, thanks anyway. If I removed all that material then the Wings section would be larger than the Beatles section, which you've said twice cannot happen. Also, please keep in mind, as I'm sure you already know, others edit the article, and others have made some great suggestions that led to content additions. So I would rather not disregard all comments by others, because you do not approve of the newer content. This is a community effort, which is good. Several people have given advice, diversity of opinion is a good thing. Also, I like the way it is now, sure, maybe a tweak or two, or three is needed, but hey, at the end of the day, you, I, have to like the article to put so many hours into editing it. I mean, if I can't use that little amount of space to summarize the most defining period of Macca's life, a full deade, then I'm fine with that. You are now arguing over about 3.5 medium sized paragraphs. There are currently 2089 words in the Beatles section (about 3.8 pages in a word.doc), and 1440 words in the Wings section (about 2.8 pages in "word"), so there is no issue with weighting as you seem to imply. For evidence of this, according to Lobo's comment below, the article is currently 14,000 words, so if 2,000 are dedicated to 10 years, then that means 1/7th of the article is dedicated to the most notable 1/7th of McCartney's life. As far as your comment, "Just relate the story of Paul in the Beatles." Well, I honestly believe I've done that, quite well if I do say so myself, with much help from my friends thankfully. I'll wait to hear from some fresh perspectives, but for now I just disagree with you, and I retain that right. I will copyedit with your suggestions in mind however. Thanks again. ~ GabeMc (talk) 05:00, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi GabeMc. Here's what I've come up with as a guide for content and scope in the Beatles section. (Don't really know the protocol, so I've cut & pasted the whole section below, minus images.) I have to say, I mostly agree with what Wasted Time R has written, about there being way too many things in there that aren't Mac-specific at all. My suggestion about that all-important middle period ('65 to '67) was a couple of sentences, with one or two additional points later in the section perhaps − I'm not quite sure how it ended up leading to so much new info. (Wasted's right: talk of whether Revolver songs were played on tour, discussion on recording techniques used for Sgt Pepper's − that's all band-article material, or one on Geoff Emerick or George Martin, not a section within Mac's article.) Perhaps even more could be cut from this; on the other hand, maybe a few of Mac's album tracks need highlighting, as has been suggested most recently. (I was thinking of She's Leaving Home, personally.)

Please note this really is a guide − so I've made no attempt to source anything new I might've added in the following text, but all statements are easy to source within the works you've used, I'm sure, certainly in the ones I've referred to in earlier comments. Also I've cut & pasted this from Word, so any new quote marks will be wonky no doubt, new links (if I've bothered adding them) may be out. The important thing from my point of view was the scope of the piece, not minor copy-editing points. PS. I realise the final line of the section has now been made redundant, but it's left in anyway for now. Anyway, hope all this is of some use ... JG66 (talk) 13:26, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort, but really, your massive copy-paste (see below) is not appropriate here, or helpful to this FAC. It would have been much easier/appropriate to bullet point your specific suggestions for changes, versus copy-pasting the entire section here. 1) it really bogs down an already long FAC, 2) Since 95% of your copy-paste is from the current version of the article nearly verbatum, it gives the false impression that you are copyediting the entire section, or that the entire section needs a re-work IYO, versus the reality, which is that you are in fact suggesting extremely minor removals of material. I personally like the text as it now reads, but I will keep your suggestions in mind as I continue improve it. Thanks again. ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:49, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

The Beatles were represented by Allan Williams, their informal manager, starting in 1960. Williams' first booking for them was a series of performances in Hamburg. During their extended stays there over the next two years, they performed as the resident group at two of Bruno Koschmider's clubs, the Indra, then the Kaiserkeller. Periodically, the band received breaks from playing in Hamburg, and would return to Livepool, performing regularly at the Cavern Club. In 1961, Sutcliffe left the band and McCartney reluctantly became their bass player. The Beatles recorded professionally for the first time in Hamburg, performing as the backing band for English singer Tony Sheridan on the single "My Bonnie". The recording would later bring them to the attention of a key figure in their subsequent development and commercial success, Brian Epstein, who became their manager in January 1962. Epstein negotiated a record contract for the group with Parlophone that May. After replacing Best with Ringo Starr in August and releasing their first hit, "Love Me Do", in October, they became increasingly popular in the UK in 1963 and in the US a year later. Their fans' frenetic glorification became known as "Beatlemania", during which McCartney was sometimes referred to by the press as the "cute Beatle". In 1963 and 1964, the band released four studio LPs: Please Please Me, With the Beatles, A Hard Day's Night and Beatles for Sale. McCartney's contributions to their early hits included "I Saw Her Standing There", "She Loves You", "I Want to Hold Your Hand" (1963), "Can't Buy Me Love" and "She’s a Woman" (1964), all of which were co-written with Lennon.

In 1965, the Beatles were appointed Members of the Order of the British Empire (MBE) by Queen Elizabeth II. The same year, they recorded the McCartney composition "Yesterday", featuring a string quartet. Included on the Help! LP, the song was the group's first recorded use of classical music elements and their first recording that involved only a single band member. "Yesterday" later became the most covered song in popular music history.

By the end of 1965, with “We Can Work It Out” and the album Rubber Soul, McCartney had begun to usurp Lennon's role as the dominant musical force within the band. From that point on, musicologist Ian MacDonald writes, McCartney "would be in the ascendant not only as a songwriter, but also as instrumentalist, arranger, producer, and de facto musical director of the Beatles". Rubber Soul is described by critics as a significant advancement in the refinement, and thematic profundity of the band's music. The song "In My Life", of which both Lennon and McCartney claimed lead authorship, is widely considered a high point in the Beatles catalogue. Recording engineer Norman Smith states that the Rubber Soul sessions exposed indications of increasing contention within the band, "the clash between John and Paul was becoming obvious", he writes, and "as far as Paul was concerned, George could do no right — Paul was absolutely finicky".

In 1966, one week before the start of the group's final tour, they released Revolver. Featuring sophisticated lyrics, studio experimentation, and an expanded repertoire of musical genres ranging from innovative classical string arrangements to psychedelic rock, the album marked an artistic leap forward for the Beatles. The LP's release was preceded by the single "Paperback Writer", a McCartney composition which Beatles biographer Jonathan Gould describes as "a satire of pop ambition". Revolver featured the McCartney song "Eleanor Rigby", which included a string octet. Described by Gould as "a neoclassical tour de force ... a true hybrid, conforming to no recognizable style or genre of song". With the exception of some backing vocals, the song included only McCartney's lead vocal and the strings arranged by producer George Martin.

After touring almost non-stop for a period of nearly four years, and giving more than 1,400 live performances internationally, the group gave their final commercial concert at the end of their 1966 US tour. Later that year, McCartney was commissioned for what would be his first musical project apart from the Beatles, a film score for the UK production, The Family Way. The score was a collaboration with Martin, who used two McCartney themes to write thirteen variations. The soundtrack failed to chart, but won McCartney an Ivor Novello Award for Best Instrumental Theme.

Sensing unease upon the end of the band's touring period, McCartney then pressured the other Beatles to start a new project, which eventually became Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Widely regarded as rock's first concept album, McCartney was inspired to create a new persona for the Beatles, a vehicle for experimentation, and to demonstrate to their fans that the band had matured as musicians. McCartney explains, "we were fed up with being the Beatles. We really hated that fucking four little mop-top approach. We were not boys, we were men ... and [we] thought of ourselves as artists rather than just performers".

The band adopted an experimental attitude during the subsequent recording sessions for the album, beginning in November 1966. The sessions produced the double A-side single "Strawberry Fields Forever"/"Penny Lane" in February 1967, and the LP, featuring the McCartney-penned title song, followed in June. The Sgt. Pepper cover was based on an ink drawing by McCartney, depicting the Beatles standing in front of a wall featuring framed images of their heroes.

"After Brian died ... Paul took over and supposedly led us you know ... we went round in circles ... We broke up then. That was the disintegration. I thought, 'we've fuckin' had it.'"

~ John Lennon, Rolling Stone magazine, 1970

Epstein's death in August 1967, created a void, and the group was left perplexed and concerned about their future. McCartney, stepping in to fill that void, gradually became the de facto leader and business manager of the group Lennon had once led. McCartney's first significant creative suggestion was to propose that the band move forward on their plans, to produce a film intended for television, which was to become Magical Mystery Tour. The project was "an administrative nightmare throughout", writes Beatles historian Mark Lewisohn. The film—largely directed by McCartney—garnered the group's first significant antagonistic critical response. However, the film's soundtrack was more successful: augmented with tracks from the band's 1967 singles and issued as an LP in the US that December, it set a record for the highest initial sales of any Capitol album up to that point. The accompanying non-album single, “Hello Goodbye”, was written by McCartney, and he would likewise supply the A-sides for the Beatles’ next two singles, “Lady Madonna” and “Hey Jude”, both released during the following year.

The band’s animated movie Yellow Submarine, a production based loosely on the imaginary world evoked by McCartney's 1966 composition, opened in cinemas in July 1968. Though the film was generally admired by critics for its visual style, humour and music, the movie's soundtrack album would be issued six months later to a less enthusiastic response. From June through October 1968, relations within the band became particularly strained during the recording of The Beatles, commonly known as the White Album. It was the band's first Apple Records LP release, and the new label was a subsidiary of Apple Corps, formed as part of Epstein's business plan to provide the group tax relief. Like the other Beatles, McCartney would increasingly use Apple as a vehicle for his extracurricular projects, producing and writing hit singles for the likes of Mary Hopkin and Badfinger.

Tensions within the band increased in January 1969 during the Let It Be sessions, another film project instigated by McCartney, originally titled Get Back after his song of the same name. With McCartney alone in wanting the Beatles to return to live performance, he was filmed lecturing his bandmates: "We've been very negative since Mr. Epstein passed away ... we were always fighting [his] discipline a bit, but it's silly to fight that discipline if it's our own". The resulting album and documentary film would be shelved until 1970, when their release would be accompanied by two more McCartney-penned hit singles in “Let It Be” and “The Long and Winding Road”.

In March 1969, McCartney married Linda Eastman, and in August, the couple had their first child together, Mary, named after Paul's late mother. For Abbey Road, which was to become the band's last recorded album, George Martin had suggested "a continuously moving piece of music", urging the group to think symphonically. McCartney agreed, but Lennon opposed the idea. They eventually agreed upon McCartney's suggested compromise, featuring individual songs on side one, with side two including a long medley. In October 1969, a rumour surfaced that McCartney had died in a car crash in 1966 and been replaced by a look-alike, but this was quickly proven false when a November Life magazine cover featured him and his family with the caption, "Paul is still with us".

By 1970, following business disagreements over the group's management, McCartney found himself pitted against his bandmates, leading him to announce his departure from the Beatles on 10 April. He filed suit for the group's formal dissolution on 31 December 1970. More legal disputes followed, as McCartney's representation, his in-laws John and Lee Eastman, fought Lennon, Harrison and Starr's business manager Allen Klein over royalties and creative control of musical projects. The band was formally dissolved in an English court on 9 January 1975, though sporadic lawsuits against their record company EMI, Klein and each other persisted until 1989. When the Beatles were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1988, their first year of eligibility, McCartney did not attend, stating that unresolved legal disputes would make him "feel like a complete hypocrite waving and smiling with [Harrison and Starr] at a fake reunion".

Between 1962 and 1970, the group released twenty-two UK singles and twelve LPs, of which seventeen of the singles and eleven of the LPs became number ones. The band topped the US Billboard Hot 100 twenty times, and recorded fourteen number-one albums as Lennon and McCartney became one of the most celebrated songwriting partnerships of the 20th century. Between 1965 and their break-up in 1970, they produced what some critics consider to be the band's finest material, including the innovative and widely influential albums Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, The Beatles, and Abbey Road. McCartney was the primary writer of five of their last six US number-one singles: "Hello, Goodbye" (1967), "Hey Jude" (1968), "Get Back (1969)", "Let It Be" and "The Long and Winding Road" (1970).

• There doesn't seem to be any mention of Apple, which was Mac's idea apparently − I'd think Apple's a pretty significant point in any of the ex-Beatles' stories. And wouldn't his work with early signings to the label merit a mention? Only George Harrison and Mac really followed up on Apple's original promise; in Mac's case, only for the first year or so., until Klein's arrival.

Great suggestion, good catch, I've added some detail on Apple, and will add more as I find it, but for the record, Apple was part of Epstein's business plan, to avoid taxes, so I wouldn't exactly give Macca credit, even if it was in some way his "idea". ~ GabeMc (talk) 08:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• In the discussion of the 1968−69 period, I'm surprised at the the lack of a mention of George's emergence as a songwriter to rival Lennon-Mac − in fact, I think I'm right in saying that it's not until the Personal relationships/Beatles subsection that Harrison's even mentioned as a songwriter in the band, when in fact it's acknowledged that his emergence was a key factor in the their eventual demise.

That's not even covered at the Beatles, currently a FA. This article is about Macca, not Harrison. Also, I seriously doubt Harrison's three or four high quality songs per year were "a key factor in the their eventual demise". ~ GabeMc (talk) 08:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I read something about it (the significance of Harrison's growth as a songwriter) in Herstgaard the other day and in a Rolling Stone Press book. That's a worry that it doesn't even merit a mention in the band article − logically, it affected the whole group dynamic, just as Yoko's arrival did. Anyway, yes, I take your point − not an issue that's needed here perhaps. JG66 (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Harrison coming into his own was certainly a factor in the break-up, I don't deny that, but there were so many factors that the material would bring WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV issues I predict, as well as bogging down the Macca article with excessive detail about Harrison. ~ GabeMc (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• During the same period, you have mentions of Mac "lecturing the group" and that "relations within the band were deteriorating", but the overall impression underplays what he brought to the party. Both Harrison and Starr attribute their temporary walkouts to Mac; and he was buying up Northern Songs shares on the sly. These points are well documented, and if an article is hoping to be an FA, shouldn't it be prepared to cover some notable, more grubby details also? Again, as supported by numerous sources, he was a bossy so-and-so. Plus, while George and Ringo played with better musicians than Mac post-Beatles (and none of them seemed to have a problem), Mac had frequent changes of line-up in Wings. Glyn Johns, Dave Spinozza, Eric Stewart and Denny Laine are all on the record as saying how hard he was to work with, how he never listened to others' advice.

So you want the article to make clearer that Macca "was a bossy so-and-so", I think if you read between the lines a little enough of that comes out. There are Starr and Harrison quotes to that effect, also Lennon's quotes aren't that flattering. The article has a quote from Macca "lecturing the band". I don't think the article should get too deep into why the Beatles broke up. 1) WP:BLP, 2) WP:UNDUE, this article is about Macca, not the break-up of the Beatles, 3) there is already an article, the Beatles' break-up, linked to in the second graph of the Beatles. ~ GabeMc (talk) 08:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess this point goes hand in hand with one under Wings, about the lack of any mention of critical negativity towards his '70 solo work, about the picture being a little too roseate at times. Mostly though, as with the issue about Rubber Soul, Revolver, etc (above), I was referring to thoughts that come to mind at a particular point in the article as one reads about a year in the Beatles chronology. (My earlier suggestion about mentioning Live Aid was another example.) Anyway, it's good to hear you're considering addressing that Wings point at least. JG66 (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I hear you, good suggestions, and as I said, I'll do some research and see if I can't balance this aspect out a bit. ~ GabeMc (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Like George working on 1970 Billy Preston and Doris Troy albums, the McCartney album was a Beatles-era activity − worth a mention therefore in this section, perhaps where "Paul Is Dead" rumour is discussed?

That would totally break the current flow and muddy the solo versus Beatles work, no need, the official announcement came one week before the album's release, so to say it was released after the break-up is not at all misleading or inaccurate. They were well past the point of no return by 10 April 1970. ~ GabeMc (talk) 08:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't really agree with the first point you make here, but never mind. JG66 (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, even if the flow wouldn't be broken per se, I think Macca's first solo work need not be squeezed in at the end of the Beatles section, would be awkward IMO because as my second point states, Macca announced he was leaving the band one week before the album was released, which makes it perfectly accurate to state that McCartney was released after their break-up. I also think it's the most logical place to start his solo career, being his first solo album, and released after the Beatles broke-up. ~ GabeMc (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Wings

• Throughout this subsection, and further to my point above about needing to address the more inconvenient points of notability, there's a noticeable lack of comment regarding the very low opinion critics had of Mac's solo/Wings work throughout the '70s, bar Band on the Run. Certainly McCartney, Ram, Wildlife and Red Rose Speedway were reviled at the time for the most part. In the grand scheme of things, in the '70s and beyond, his lyrics are widely acknowledged as being pretty awful, even on Band on the Run, and let's not forget, this guy was one half of the Lennon−McCartney songwriting partnership. I think a major weakness of the article, at least in this Musical career section, is that his many achievements are listed but there's almost no mention of his fall from greatness in artistic terms. This applies to his work way outside the Wings timeframe, but haven't many in the UK press repeatedly said that his substandard releases and the fact that for so long he's been the most public ex-Beatle cheapened the Beatles legacy? eg his pursuing grudges (Long and Winding Road/Let It Be), attempting to get "Yesterday" assigned as a McCartney-only song? It doesn't seem as though any of these points are touched on in the article (apologies if I'm wrong about this, but I'm coming from the point of view of someone reading the musical career section, which I'd think would be the most widely read part). Hunter Davies, McDonald and Sounes point out how prone Mac is to rewriting history; George Harrison observed how, from the late '80s, Mac's announcements regarding possible Beatles reunions were always timed to coincide with an album or tour of his own. Personally, it worries me slightly that this section doesn't seem to go anywhere too un-roseate or controversial − like it or not, it's part of the picture of the man's musical career. He's a workaholic and he works very hard at protecting his image, as Yoko Ono does with Lennon's. (Sometimes I wonder whether wiki's McCartney album articles have been written by MPL employees ...)

I'll keep this in mind, and introduce some balance after a bit of research. ~ GabeMc (talk) 10:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• The wording in the Band on the Run discussion needs revisiting, I suggest. The frequent mentions of 'LP' and 'album' jar quite a bit.

Good point, thanks, I think I fixed it now. ~ GabeMc (talk) 10:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• While it's good to see the critical reaction acknowledged at least for London Town and Back to the Egg, is it really fair to say the first of these albums "passed with little ... commercial notice"? (I'm sure you'd know better than me, but "With a Little Luck" was a US number 1 and the album was top 3, no?)

Great point, I've tweaked the prose a bit, and added some detail for accuracy and balance.~ GabeMc (talk) 10:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

1982−1990

• Live Aid was a major event in Mac's solo career at the time and while it's mentioned elsewhere in the article, I believe, it does seem odd not to see any comment on it here. Especially as "Spies Like Us" merits a couple of sentences.

Great catch, not sure how that got missed. I fixed it now. ~ GabeMc (talk) 10:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Hope this helps. You've done a great job of pulling the article together. I don't mean to sound too anti-McCartney; in the musical career section in particular, I think build up his presence at the time of unquestioned greatness (Work It Out, Revolver, Sgt Pepper's) but for the article to be even a GA, it has to state the other cold reality also. Cheers, JG66 (talk) 16:42, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to offer some great suggestions JG66. ~ GabeMc (talk) 10:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Again, hope these comments help, GabeMc. JG66 (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Big help, great suggestions JG66, I will keep them in mind as I research and edit. Cheers! ~ GabeMc (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Accedie

• Just one small quibble so far, other than grammatical nits that I'm picking at myself: you alternate between present and past tense on the quotes from McCartney (e.g., "On his bass playing, McCartney states, 'blah...'" in one section and then "On the album, McCartney stated, 'blah...'" in another), which is somewhat confusing. Are you using present tense when the quote comes from the recent past and past tense when it comes from closer to the time of whenever the "blah" actually happened? I'd prefer just one tense or the other, as long as it's used consistently (though past seems much more intuitive than present to me). Accedie^{talk to me} 19:20, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

A lack of consistency in this area may be blamed on my fixing this issue in the sections where I've done a thorough copyedit so far. Clearly, any introduction to these quotes should be in past tense. szyslak (t) 21:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that past tense is best, and I will do my best to improve the article's consistency in that regard. ~ GabeMc (talk) 23:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Oppose.

• Second paragraph of the lead has exactly the same problem as was discussed in the first FAC.

Specifically, which verifiable facts would you remove from the paragraph, and why? The graph is currently summarizing the article per WP:LEAD. ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:26, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Still too much emphasis on trivial crap. Why do the meaningless sections get full paragraphs, but the ones that people would actually want to read only get bulleted lists? WP:SUMMARY should be read and adhered to. The biggest offender is This section is about social and other general interactions. For creative collaborations, see Collaborations between ex-Beatles. What it should say is This section is about creative collaborations. For other unimportant shenaniganry that one would expect to find in a biographical but not an encyclopedia article, read a biographical book. Other examples:

What material specifically do you think is "trivial crap" and which "bulleted lists" do you think should be summarized in prose? Per your suggestion, I've now summarized Macca's musical collaborations with Starr. It was already covered for Lennon (two jams) and Harrison (one backing vocals over-dub). ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:26, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• "In 1966, McCartney met gallery-owner Robert Fraser, and it was at Fraser's flat where he first learned about art appreciation." Sentences like these make me wonder if the author realizes that inclusion in a 700-page biography is not sufficient reason to include something in an encyclopedia article.

Macca is a painter of 30 years with over 500 completed canvasses to his credit, so it is notable where, when, and why he first became interested in art. ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:26, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• "Miles would become de facto manager of Apple's short-lived Zapple Records label" Relevance?

Why is a little background info on Macca's official biographer, a former Beatles employee, not relevant? Many sources find Apple, and Zapple notable enough for a brief description, as this article currently does. ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:26, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• "McCartney attended the 1968 FA Cup Final played by West Bromwich Albion against the Everton Football Club, and after the match, shared cigarettes and whisky with other fans."

Demonstrates a non-musical, or non-professional side to his personality/life, hence it's inclusion in "Lifestyle". ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:26, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• "Sir Paul McCartney's agent was Hubert Chesshyre, LVO, Clarenceux King of Arms" I mentioned in the last FAC that this claim was not covered by the source that was then given, and I see that the solution was to simply remove the source...?

Fixed. I searched for several hours for a WP:RS to back up this statement but could not, so I just deleted it, as it didn't add that much and/or wasn't that needed anyway. ~ GabeMc (talk) 08:19, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• "Or between two Flaunches fracted fesswise two Roundels Sable over all six Guitar Strings palewise throughout counterchanged." Are we supposed to be able to understand this? Also, source?

Ditto. ~ GabeMc (talk) 08:19, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

-- Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:02, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Support - Very comprehensive. Well-sourced. Appreciate the hard work the nominator did to bring this to FA status. --Noleander (talk) 01:14, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Lobo: The article has certainly improved a lot since the last FAC, and I commend GabeMc on all the hard work. I'm afaid I do still find much of the content after "Musicianship" (and even some of the stuff there) to be bloated and given too much importance. For instance, all of "Creative outlets", in my opinion, could quite easily be compressed to one paragraph giving a summary of his interests and achievements in these areas. Just to prove my point, here's an alternative: "McCartney is an avid painter who has exhibited his work in public. He has also written a book of poetry and a childrens' book." That alone could more or less cover the first two subsections! I'm not suggesting it should be that brief, but it also proves how padded this section is. The "Drugs" section is even worse since it has little relation to his notability, and - to be brutally honest - I don't even think the football section should be there. So he loves football...okay, so do 90% of other British men! I really think this is trivial. Personal relationships...again, we have a lot of unnecessary information here, such as "Rhone felt McCartney had a compulsion to control situations, choosing clothes and make-up for Rhone, encouraging her to grow her hair out like Brigitte Bardot's,[297] and at least once insisting she have it re-styled, to disappointing effect."

• Two specific points: 1) I'm not keen on this phrasing: "The loss of McCartney's mother was later a point of relation with John Lennon". 2) No mention of him headlining Glastonbury in 2004? (*cough* which I was there for *cough*)

All in all it's an impressive article, but it is just too detailed at times IMO. The sections most in need of attention, for me, are "Creative outlets" and "Lifestyle". Please don't let my comments be a downer, I'm sure this fault is only a result of your enthusiasm for the man and the article. That can only be admirable. :) But I wouldn't feel comfortable supporting until the less important sections are substantially trimmed. --Lobo (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I fixed your first specific point, a good one. As for the second, well ... if I added every notable festival that Macca has ever played in 42 years as a solo artist, it would only serve to increase the verbosity of which you disparaged in your general comments, which I might be tempted to resolve by trimming a few sections, but as you are the only reviewer who has really ever gone there, specifically, I'll hold off for now, since really, you can say "I wouldn't feel comfortable supporting until ..." all you want, but unfortunately, you might not support anyway, no matter how much material/edits/personhours I delete. Macca smoked pot for 40-50 years, habitually, according to many reliable sources, and he was busted five times, once for cultivation, so it is certainly notable. He has painted over 500 canvasses, and had major showings where thousands showed up, 45,000 at one, so that's also notable. Many edits went into the FB section, many not mine, so to delete the work of others to please one off-hand comment seems rash. He is indeed a rabid fan, or was, and two graphs in the bio of a 70 year-old man does not seem excessive. If and when others complain about similar concerns I will reassess. Thanks for taking the time to comment. ~ GabeMc (talk) 04:14, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough about Glastonbury, it just seemed like that section was very detailed so I thought I'd point out an omission. I have no objection to there being lots of detail about his musical career by the way. I wasn't saying his painting, drugs etc shouldn't be mentioned, it should, I just think the article dwells on these things more than is necessary. And in such a long article (oh my god, 14,000 words!!! I didn't know it was that long!), I'm inevitably going to be looking at what could be trimmed. Although, I'm starting to think it may be the introductory bit to "Creative outlets" that makes this section look so bloated to me...I can't really see a need for it? The football, I'm afraid, I really do think should be deleted (other than perhaps a sentence about him being a fan and supporting both Liverpool teams) - it trivialises the article IMO. I'm surprised no one else has commented on it. When I get home from work, I may start a discussion about it on the talk page. I know it is horrible deleting stuff that you spent time researching and writing, but trimming out the fluff is also a big part of article refinement. I most likely would support if this was done, since I can't see anything else wrong with the article. I sincerely think this would be an improvement, but I understand your reticence in acting upon it as well...just think about it. People are actually more likely to read your work if it doesn't look too daunting. ;)

That sentence I picked out - it was actually "..was later a point of relation" that I found a bit strange. Would it be accurate to say "McCartney and John Lennon would later bond over this..." or something similar? Because I think that would be clearer, if so. Congratulations again on all the work you've put into the article. --Lobo (talk) 06:53, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, I much prefer "point of relation", the reliable sources do not say they bonded over it per se, in the sense that it was something they discussed at length, and which strengthened their friendship, just that they had a common frame of reference, as a sad child who lost a parent. A commonality of experience, hence, "point of relation". The introductory bit to "Creative outlets" sets up all the material to come. To remove it would undercut the section. It needs an intro, IMO. I've trimmed most of what I believe should be trimmed out, and I like the article as it reads now. Is 14,000 words to many for one of the most famous and successful entertainers of the last 100 years ... who also happens to be 70 years old? Huh? Who says 177,000 bytes is the limit for McCartney's bio and why? These seem like arbitrary limits you are applying without any rationale. As if you think the sections that bore you need to be deleted, or the article isn't good enough. As far as article length, as I said above, currently the McCartney article is about 178,000 bytes, look at others to compare

• Current FA status Music Biographies
• Nick Drake - 53,000 bytes, died aged 26.
• John Mayer - 78,000, age 34.
• Aaliyah - 80,000, died aged 22.
• Metallica - 108,000, active 31 years.
• John Lennon - 118,000, died aged 40.
• Bob Dylan - 177,000, active 51 years.
• Elvis Presley - 178,000, active 21 years.
• Mariah Carey - 179,000, active 24 years.
• Michael Jackson - 225,000, died aged 50.

Please keep in mind, you do not have to agree with or like every section for it to be FA quality. It seems like you have an issue with his lifestyle and creative outlets sections in general. Are there prose or punctuation issues, or anything less vague that can be addressed? ~ GabeMc (talk) 07:27, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Alright Lobo, I stayed up all-night, and edited the sections you suggested editing. In total I trimmed over 11,000 bytes, around 6% of the article you last saw. So I'm calling your bluff, I trimmed. Now what? I did my best to trim the sections you suggested trimming. Thanks for taking the time to comment. ~ GabeMc (talk) 12:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, after looking through the article, I feel confident that the following areas can be adjusted for brevity without adversely affecting the article. These are out of order, so bear with me.

The Beatles - I don't think the paragraph on the Pepper cover is terribly important. You could trim it without affecting the article. I think also the last paragraph of this subsection (beginning "Between 1962 and 1970") is also unnecessary. We've already covered the major singles and albums in detail, and don't need to summarize here. Other than that, this section looks perfect to me.

Drugs - This section is reasonably succinct, and I do think most of the content should stay. This sentence:

In 1997 he spoke out in support of decriminalisation of the drug: "People are smoking pot anyway and to make them criminals is wrong".

is entirely unnecessary, however. We already have the bit about him signing the Times advert in 1967, so no one reading the article really needs to know that he also talked about it thirty years later. You could also tweak the bit about the Times thing, maybe cut out the name of the group that produced it and the celebrities who signed it. Maybe something like this:

His attitude about cannabis became public in 1967, when he, along with sixty-four others (including the other three Beatles and Epstein), added his name to a 24 July advertisement in The Times which called for its legalisation, the release of those imprisoned for possession, and research into its medical uses.

would work? The way I see it, the names of the others who signed it really aren't that important. The Beatles and Epstein should be mentioned, obviously, but the others aren't terribly important, for our purposes.

As an aside, does the "never arrested by Norman Pilcher's Drug Squad" clause need to be there? I'm sure there are lots of English policemen he was never arrested by.

Football - I would say trim all the specifics, as was suggested by Lobo, and mention that he supports both clubs. I could be wrong on this, though.

Anyway, Gabe, I'm with you on the article not actually being too long, per se, but I think it does spend a bit too much time on some things. I feel strongly that the "Musical career" section was fine before some of the additions. I don't dislike it now, and I still think it meets the FA criteria, but I think it has gotten away from summary territory for certain, and it seems like that particular guideline is something those who commented here should have thought about before asking that it be expanded in those areas.

That said, all my concerns are now a matter of taste, so on some level the changes I mention may not be necessary. I don't think any of the above concerns are (or should be) a barrier to getting this already inordinately long FAC successfully passed, as it has met all the criteria for quite some time. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 08:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, this is getting a bit ridiculous IMO. To address your concerns, 1) if Macca sketched the Pepper cover, then it is notable enough for inclusion, as the most famous cover ever. 2) The last graph of the Beatles covers their chart, and lasting success and influence, something the summary section does not do. 3) I think it's notable that he has been openly for pot legalisation from 1967 until recently. It establishes his continued opinion. 4) I just disagree, with the drugs thing, wikipedia is getting too touchy. Why hide all the controversy? 5) I nuked the FB sub-section, I fought too hard for that one, out of respect for Brits, and those that had dedicated time into crafting it, but it's not worth it to me at this point. I don't even like football, nor do I care that Macca does. 6) What specifically about the "Musicianship section" is excessive IYO, as most of the material was added there at the direct request of other FAC reviewers, in particular, User:Wasted Time R. Thanks for your comments Evan. ~ GabeMc (talk) 09:16, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• I will stay up all-night, and trim as much detail as possible from the sections Lobo and Evan suggested trimming. Please remember, I'm just a human doing their best. ~ GabeMc (talk) 09:41, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Update: Per Lobo's suggestions, I trimmed out over 11,000 bytes. I believe all the remaining content is important to the subject, well-weighted, and worthy of inclusion in a featured article. ~ GabeMc (talk) 12:17, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• Well, I can honestly say that I have done my very best up to this point to resolve everyone's comments. If I missed any key points please remind me, perhaps in a new section down here, as I may have missed something in the wall of text above. This FAC is now to the point where I am resolving concerns caused by my resolving of previous FAC concerns. Perhaps I'll write an essay called, "The FAC feedback loop". ~ GabeMc (talk) 01:14, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• Note: In some articles, particularly those about non-controversial science topics, it can be very easy to determine what content belongs in the article, and the FAC becomes a matter of tweaking it and finding little mistakes. For a topic such as this one, however, it can be a huge pain in the ass to find a structure that everyone is satisfied with, as I'm sure you've noticed. In such cases, the polishing of individual sentences really is a waste of effort, as much of the work can get lost in the shuffle. FAC is consensus-driven, and it seems clear to me that no consensus will be found here. I suggest spending some time away from the article, allowing the entire readership to push and pull the article into its most agreeable shape, rather than relying on the often contradictory opinions of a few well-meaning reviewers. Once it has arrived at a stable state, the refinement can begin. Just my two cents, of course. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:44, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Or, maybe we've just reached the point where almost all of everyone's requests for inclusion have been granted, and now the article is much longer, causing comments to come in requesting trims. FWIW, I agree that some trims were needed, and I have already trimmed almost everything that was specifically contended, as far as I know anyway, I may have missed something in the above text. IMO, no actionable objections are currently left unresolved. Please correct me if I am wrong. ~ GabeMc (talk) 03:49, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment: A week and a half after I emphasized the need for the article to receive a comprehensive, skilled copyedit, that has still not happened (though given the extensive substantive editing that has occurred, perhaps it was best to hold off the copyedit until that wound down). The quickest glance at the middle of the article shows that multiple grammatical errors—and I mean multiple errors even in individual sentences—remain.

Among the seven or eight online guides to proper comma usage I looked at, the following two struck me as potentially the most useful: [1] and [2].—DCGeist (talk) 00:15, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

If there are "multiple grammatical errors" as you say, then perhaps you would be kind enough to give a few examples here, so that they can be resolved, and the article improved. Many editors have gone through the article since you last commented, at least 4 or 5, not counting me. So it appears you can see errors all the rest of us have missed. Please, do share some specifics, or this is merely an unactionable objection, with no rationale to support the concern you want others to look for. Also, I think it is a bit inappropriate of you to even comment here, now, when you and I are in the middle of several talk page disputes at the Beatles. I could be wrong, but to comment here negatively, while there are open RfCs and content disputes with which you and I are directly involved, seems improper, IMO. Maybe someone can clarify this point. ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC) Currently open content disputes between User:DCGeist and myself: here, here, and here. Also, I hate to AfB, but I cannot help but feel this has something to do with the whole "The/the" Beatles issue, which has mysteriously reappeared recently after 18 months of silence on the issue, I hope I am wrong about this. ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

We were involved in those "disputes"—I thought they were content discussions—at The Beatles a week and a half ago. You didn't presume back then to argue that they disqualified me from vetting this FA candidate. As for now, why in the world would I want to give you any more help after this gratuitous display of bad attitude? The fact that your grammar is poor and you have been unable to recruit or retain a competent copyeditor is your problem (and, unfortunately, the article's), not mine. As an example for the benefit of the delegates, I provide the sentence with multiple errors that it took me about two seconds to spot when I went to look at the current state of the article:

While London Town (1978), was supported by the US number-one, "With a Little Luck", and was a top-five in both the US and the UK, critical reception was less favourable, and McCartney expressed disappointment in the release.

The prose in much of the article does not come close to meeting the FA standard for similar reasons, and on that basis I oppose its promotion.

P.S. GabeMc's comments are veering into very silly territory, but just for the record, aside from enforcing consistency, I couldn't care less about the endless "The/the" debate.—DCGeist (talk) 00:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can see, your example above has one, maybe two unneeded commas. Am I incorrct about this? Please tell me how many errors there are in the graph, I'm curious. ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:08, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

DCGeist, your oppose seems little more than a sour grapes retaliation against me, so I will reiterate, it is not appropriate to oppose an an FAC while you are currently in the middle of more than one content dispute at a related page with the nominating editor. Please, can any admins verify whether or not I am correct in this assertion? ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:16, 6 July 2012 (UTC)