User talk:AussieLegend

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Friends episodes

As I've explained to Drovethrughosts, the table style has been discussed here: Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Friends episodes/archive1. Reviewers have come to a conclusion that WP:TRANSCLUSION should be discouraged, per WP:BOLD and MOS:DTT. Feel free to add your two cents on the matter or make a comment regarding the list there. -- Lemonade51 (talk) 13:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Done! --AussieLegend (talk) 15:07, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

You have a couple of replies waiting regarding the template's inexcusable inability to meet WP:ACCESS. Would love to hear your two cents on that nugget. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I was already on it. I've posted quite a bit so far but I'm not Superman. Perhaps you could try fixing the template, since you seem to know the exact problems and have the ability to edit it. I'm not an admin so I have no ability to fix the template, which is protected. --AussieLegend (talk) 18:25, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Not a chance. It needs consensus to be changed, as you are well aware, and that's not forthcoming because the precious template has been created, used, and then never questioned. No-one cares about it. It's fallen into disrepair and FLC have pointed it out and avoided it like the plague because it's inadequate for our standards. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:41, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

So you just give up? And you had the hide to comment about "people who bother to care". If you know the specific problems you could always fix the template in a sandbox and then suggest those edits. But if you don't care..... --AussieLegend (talk) 19:23, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Eh? Hide what? Where did I do that? I don't need to fix the problems, we have a perfectly legitimate solution. You're the one complaining about the solution. If you wish to solve your perceived problem, then that's down to you. Nothing in WIAFL says we have to use the bog-awful templates you seem so keen to promote. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:53, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Although I'm not an expert in the template, it seems pretty easily fixable. The DTT stuff (scope="col") and captions is handled within the table markup anyway and not the template. The bold episode titles should be removed. I also took out the F2F2F2 shading of the row that handles the episode numbers, titles, director, etc that occurs when there is a summary because the scope attribute turns the relevant cell that colour, and it's no good when they're all automatically shaded like that. Check out Template:Episode list/sandbox and Template:Episode list/testcases. Matthewedwards :  Chat  19:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice work Matthew. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm It seems that even though http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20081211/H63.html says to put "scope='row'" into the <td> html tags (<td scope=row>) and I did that to Template:Episode list/sandbox in the line

<td scope="row" class="summary" style="text-align: left;">{{#if:{{{Title|}}}|"{{{Title}}}"}}{{{RTitle|}}} {{#if:{{{AltTitle|}}}|<br />"{{{AltTitle}}}"}}</td>

that bit hasn't worked at least visually (the cell for the episode title is still white). I don't know whether JAWS can tell the difference as I don't have the software. Matthewedwards :  Chat  20:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I just tried moving the row scope to the first column (the episode number) but there was still no change, at least not visually. WP:DTT doesn't explicitly say there has to be a row scope though... Matthewedwards :  Chat  20:13, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I've done a bit of testing and, as far as I can determine, the only difference in your version is the removal of the shading of the row that handles the episode numbers, titles, director, etc. That's really exceptionally minor and, if it achieves compliance is something we just have to live with. If |LineColor= is set the difference between episode entries is still blatantly clear. Transclusion seems to work still, although the shading for |EvenRowColor= in Template:Episode list/sublist may have to be removed. Is it really that simple? If so, good work. Regardless, thanks for your efforts. --AussieLegend (talk) 20:54, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Col scopes are important, row scopes less so if it's clear what in each row is the most pertinent data object. These templates are a bit complex when it comes to helping that sort of thing become obvious to screen readers. Once again I'd suggest we have a quick chat with User:RexxS who has been invaluable to the FLC project in promoting ACCESSible data tables. Could just be that everything's good now, but as Matthew said, without JAWS etc, it's difficult to know. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:59, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, there were other subtle changes aside from the shading. From the template I removed the bolding, added "scope='row'" to the < td > html code and removed the shading. The rest is handled in the table headers markup on the actual article ({{episode list}} isn't a table, you still have to code one in the articles). The main difference there that is quite obvious is the table "title" but again there are some other subtle changes. Out of all that I did only one, the "scope='row'", doesn't appear to work but like The Rambling Man said, row scope is less important.

We could probably even leave the F2F2F2 shading. Scope="col" has two effects. One for the screenreaders (which quite honestly, I don't understand any of it, but accept that it has to be done), the other is visual and shades the table cells. Having the cells shaded by the {{episode list}} doesn't stop the scope from working for screenreaders, but obviously it does visually.

Admittedly I've done no testing other than Template:Episode list/testcases. I don't know how it will work when it's used in season pages and transcluded to a different page, but I think it will be okay. Testing probably also needs to be carried out with Template:Episode list/sublist before we implement anything. And for the record, I for one have always hated |EvenRowColor= and the zebra look, the Skittlepedia look, and anything else where colour is used to jazz stuff up, supposedly make thing easier to read, and anything else where colour isn't actually necessary or relevant to the information. So if that has to go, good! Matthewedwards :  Chat  04:50, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

"One for the screenreaders (which quite honestly, I don't understand any of it, but accept that it has to be done)" - I've had some exposure to screenreaders as I'm the system administrator at a local school where we've had legally blind children, but I don't profess to understand it any better than you do. However, because of my position I was able to get a copy of Jaws 13.0 (talk about a "bog-awful" application!) and installed it on my test PC. I didn't hear any difference in articles using the standard {{Episode list}} and those with the modified template. Then I tried one with all the scopes in the right places (Lemonade 51's version of List of Friends episodes, which was rebuilt in accordance with WP:DTT) and, surprise surprise, it sounded exactly the same. --AussieLegend (talk) 05:05, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

For "hide", read "audacity", and you said it here.

"You're the one complaining about the solution." - That's because it's a stop-gap measure at best. Every time a TV article comes up for nomination it has to be re-written. After the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster in 1986 they didn't just replace the o-rings in each solid rocket booster, which is what your solution is equivalent to doing, they forced a redesign of the joints in the booster. The root cause was fixed, rather than the effect.

"If you wish to solve your perceived problem" - It's not my perceived problem. You're the one who seems to know about it and has issue with it, so it's your problem.

"the bog-awful templates" - The template is certainly not "bog-awful". It serves a useful purpose and has done so for six years, making work easy for many editors, providing a consistent layout for episode lists across thousands of articles. You may not like these templates, but they're not going away. --AussieLegend (talk) 22:00, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

It's awfully quiet over at WP:TV, where are all those caring editors? As Lemonade51 says there, the precedent was set some while back, no-one at the TV project seems to care. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:57, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Maybe they're all making apparently useless changes to articles so they'll comply. As I've pointed out there, neither of the articles cited set a precedent as neither used {{Episode list}} or transcluded content before their nominations. They both used custom tables. Neither would meet the criteria if nominated today. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:53, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone said the changes were useless, quite the opposite, they provide an accessible table so more readers can enjoy the Wikipedia experience. The TV project appear not to give two hoots which is a real shame. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:02, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Did you follow the link I provided? Based on my experience using Jaws the changes do not provide an enjoyable Wikipedia experience. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, well your personal experience is noted, but irrelevant when we have requirements to meet the accessibility requirements of MOS. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:23, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Well no, it's not irrelevant as the testing I've done indicates the template provides exactly the same results as a custom table. Therefore it would seem to comply with the spirit of the requirements. You've said you don't know how to fix the template,[1] and there has been no explanation as to how exactly the template doesn't comply. Matthewedwards has said "the DTT stuff (scope="col") and captions is handled within the table markup anyway and not the template" and he has indicated that he's made required changes to the template. Any further opposition seems a case of "I don't like it". Unless, of course, you can explain how the template doesn't comply. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:50, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Well ideally it needs to implement scope="row" as well. Interesting that despite the use of the template, editors still need to understand how to write markup for tables, as illustrated in the template instructions. Perhaps editors are more competent than you would have us believe! The Rambling Man (talk) 08:55, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Matthewedwards has included scope="row" in the template. Editors only need to write markup for column headers and even in featured lists like those mentioned at WT:TV, this isn't compliant. Neither comply with MOS:HASH either. --AussieLegend (talk) 09:09, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Well we're getting somewhere then! FLs mentioned at WP:TV were probably promoted before we insisted on complete MOS compliance. And yes, we shouldn't be using # either. That's a problem with many template instructions, guidance can be outdated or simply incorrect. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:16, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Hey, despite our clearly contrary positions, I really do appreciate your ongoing efforts to resolve this issue (and the peripheral ones). Hope, despite our differences, we can continue to positively debate this and come to a positive conclusion. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

You may have been "disgusted" by our recommendation to avoid the use of the transclusion, but now because of the transclusion, the list has MOS failures, isn't formatted elegantly and has missing information. Very disappointing. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:46, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Most articles have MOS failures, even featured articles, there's nothing wrong with the formatting and, as for the missing information, what information is that? It reflects what is in the season articles, which is not what it did when it had the silly custom tables in it. --AussieLegend (talk) 09:27, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

"Most articles have MOS failures" (a) featured ones shouldn't (b) even if they do, doesn't make it right. A production code has gone missing and the tabular format is all over the place from section to section. Not to mention the odd grey backgrounds gone missing. What makes a plain wikitable "silly custom"? The evidence is clear, transcluding crap results in crap articles. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:31, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

If it's OK for featured lists to have MOS failures, why should this article be held to a higher standard when it's not a featured article? The missing prod code has been restored, it's a minor fix that can happen even to a featured article, any inconsistencies in column widths can easily be fixed and, in any case don't affect readability of the date. The screenreader has no problem interpreting the data. I don't see a problem with the odd grey background not being there. It shouldn't be there anyway, any more than episode titles being bolded. The wikitables are silly because they're not needed. Transclusion serves the same purpose without adding 58kb of code. --AussieLegend (talk) 10:03, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

You do also realise that, for instance, Friends (season 10) is actually internally inconsistent don't you? The ratings tables lists both parts of the two-parter separately (with (1) and (2) in the titles) while the episode summary table doesn't? (and that the "Special No." should be "Special no." as there's no reason to capitalise No. here, it's not the start of a sentence or a proper noun after all). The more you look, the worse these transclusions get... The Rambling Man (talk) 09:49, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

All of the season articles need a clean-up. I started by updating all of the infoboxes but haven't gotten much further than that because of this silly discussion. Personally, I don't see the point in nominating episode lists that have been split into season articles without nominating the season articles too, as they are all intimately related because of the way that the TV project prefers to split articles. Nominating the full episode list is like nominating only the lead section of a normal article. That's why I'm keen to get the template fixed. Regarding "no.", MOS:HASH says to use "No.". --AussieLegend (talk) 10:03, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

That's why the seasons list shouldn't transclude rubbish. It's more than reasonable for it to be a stand alone table with simple markup since we're not interested in the summaries, we're only interested in the stable, static facts like production code (one of which is still missing due to the "helpful" edits). Until all the season articles meet MOS and are internally consistent, I can't see how you can demand their transclusion anywhere else, it's extraordinary. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "Friends episodes". Thank you. --George Ho (talk) 20:47, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I've left some comments there. And at Template talk:Episode list#So far/What now? Best, Matthewedwards (talk · contribs) 07:16, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

You have replies at my talk page. If you do not want to read further, as I said before, you may present your own comments at the "dispute resolution noticeboard". --George Ho (talk) 12:59, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

The NOT Reliable Source

It's not fair that the Wikia sources cannot be used on Wikipedia when they're both the same sources, but Wikia gets their information before Wikipedia does and I use it! If I can't use Wikia, then where can I find other sources besides Zap2it, FutonCritic, MSN, TVGuide, or any other non-spammed Wikipedia sources? Wikia should be a reliable source because it isn't in the spam filter of sources!! Please talk to me about this because I'm not feeling Wikipedia because of copyright or unreliable sources. ~ RomeAntic14 22:28, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Open wikis are not classed as reliable sources because anyone can edit them. Please read WP:IRS for more information. Of course, that was not the main reason I reverted your edits. What you posted was copied verbatim from other sources, including the press releases and therefore constitutes a copyright violation. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:26, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Newcastle Airport (Williamtown)

I noticed this and you could have the feet only with a conversion to metres. However, why would you want to do that given that the source uses metres? As far as I know only Canada and the US give runway lengths in feet and everybody else uses metres. Although, just to make it confusing most countries use feet for airport elevations. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 17:10, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

The RAAF, who owns the runway, still gives the distances in feet; the only reason for doing so in the article on the civilian side of the runway is really consistency. I'm a bit surprised about the ASA source. When I saw the change from north to northeast I was shocked. That puts "Newcastle" about 1,100m from the centre of Warabrook,[2] which is just under 7.4km from the official centre of Newcastle.[3][4]

The distances from a given community can be odd for several countries. Some define where in the community they are measuring from, a railway station, city hall, church, but others countries don't seem to be measured from any particular place. It's possible that the distances were set by someone working in a city somewhere else, in your case Canberra and in ours Ottawa, to come up with them. I had it wrong it should have been north northeast rather than northest. Cheers. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 00:31, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Source for Thomas & Friends

http://www.sodor-island.net/storytellers.html Just found some more information for the Thomas & Friends page. This is a source and this link is not a wiki website page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigshowandkane64 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Sodor-island.net identifies itself as "A Thomas Fan Site". Fansites are largely not acceptable as sources. --AussieLegend (talk) 02:15, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, there is a mistake I found in the storyteller list with Alec Baldwin. At the end of the sentence there seems to be two dots instead of one for the period. Can you fix that mistake please. Marionluigi49 19:02, 6 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marionluigi49 (talk • contribs)

Kangaroo Point

Hello, I did prod this article, but someone put their hand up and turned it into something sensible and I am now about to move it to where it belongs, hence my revert Regards Crusoe8181 (talk) 09:30, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Kangaroo Point is only a point of land in the suburb of Brooklyn that is not notable. Its only claim to fame appears to be that it's at one end of a bridge, although it's debatable as to whether the end of the bridge is actually on the point, since topographic maps 9130 Sydney and 91304N Cowan show the bridge as actually being on the rising ground behind the point, not on the point itself. It isn't any more notable than Mooney Mooney Point, or the other 7 Kangaroo Points in NSW, and doesn't warrant a separate article. It's adequately covered in the suburb article. --AussieLegend (talk) 09:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Your edit summary...

...lol Seriously though, that info might find a better home in Demographics of Sydney. :-) --Merbabu (talk) 11:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Hello AussieLegend thank you for your message, just letting you know the reason why that I was adding the "Cancelled Episode" list on the Thomas and Friends series 2 page. Because It's kinda important because "The Missing Coach" was the episode that got cancelled in season 2. That's all, thank you! Trainsareawesome1225 (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

---

Refunded article

Hi Aussie, just an FYI I just refunded Dai Le after a request on my talk page by the creator--Jac16888 ^Talk 09:45, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. The article is now at AfD. --AussieLegend (talk) 10:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Jessie

Is this a reliable source? http://www.disneydreaming.com/2012/05/08/the-jessie-disney-channel-original-movie-will-film-this-summer/ Bow-bb (talk) 15:22, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Disney Dreaming claims to be a fan site,[5] so I'd say no. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:59, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Howard Joel "Fruit Loops" Wolowitz

It's official. ---88.193.111.215 (talk) 16:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

This nutjob started a discussion on the talk page about it. Care to chip in? RAP (talk) 18:22 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your nice remark, kind sir. I am, as you may have noticed, quite persistent... ---88.193.111.215 (talk) 23:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Friends episodes

(Reposted from Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Friends episodes to give you a chance to respond if you so choose. If you decide to respond, please answer there.

With all due respect, writing "I won't be posting the diffs as there is simply no need...I'm taking this page off my watchlist, so there's no point asking again." makes you look like a liar. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)