Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands/Workshop

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

This is neither a motion nor a request as currently formulated.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Unbiased enforcement of standards. 1) Even though the concept of "unbiased enforcement" is quite subjective, it is still something important to keep in mind for all parties involved (especially for those with administrative authority). A main frustration I have is that there are highly involved authority figures who have consistently imposed their judgement on others in a highly selective manner. It's fine if everyone who jaywalks gets criticized, but it's discrimination if a few out of all substantial offenders are consistently selected for criticism. In our context, some people even went further than this. Namely, they would game the system to prevent certain parties from being sanctioned or simply refuse to scrutinize other parties' behaviours by summoning various excuses. In a practical perspective, these types of actions undermines the moral authority of people who engage biased enforcement of standards and render them less likely to be trusted by parties whom they exerted unjustified biases against. This can in turn contribute to factionalism and a loss of cooperative spirit. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:52, 17 August 2011 (UTC) Comment by Arbitrators: Comment by parties: Comment by others:

Request for correcting a mistaken block on my user account

2) As stated in my evidence part, I was mistakenly blocked for 24 hours on July 22, 2011 [1]. Elen of the Roads once analysed this case and clearly expressed her opinion that this blocking was a mistake [2]. I was actually a victim of an unbalanced enforcement of rules or a kind of improper conduct that eventually ruined effort preventing edit-warring in editing that page. Elen told me [3] that refactoring block logs unfortunately is almost unfeasible and suggested me save the diff or link of the discussion and her opinion. Here I wonder if it is possible by this chance, as my request, that Arbitration Committee can correct this mistake in any more formal format. Thank you in advance! --Lvhis (talk) 17:05, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

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Questions posed by Tenmei

In the context created by the evidence presented thus far, the differences and distinctions between Forest management and Arboriculture suggest arguable useful patterns, e.g.,

• Arboriculture is about one tree at a time
• Forest management is about many trees at a time

__________

IMO, the evidence only addresses what to do now, today. What next?

IMO, more difficult questions have to do with what could have been done or should have been done differently in the past?

IMO, more constructive questions have to do with making guesses about how to address similar uncertainties, problems, stumbling blocks, etc. which are likely to arise in the future? --Tenmei (talk) 18:57, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

@ Qwyrxian

Do you know the idiomatic expression "can't see the forest for the trees"? Would you agree that your evidence here is generalist and reductive? Are you willing to tweak your evidence in response to questioning? If so, can you see how it may help ArbCom to revisit your evidence with a wider perspective? On the basis of lessons learned the hard way, what could have averted this ArbCom case? what about the future? --Tenmei (talk) 18:57, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Please allow me to answer in bullet points:

• Yes, I am aware of the phrase. No, I do not know how you intend for it to apply here.
• I will tweak my evidence if you can show I've actually made a mistake (like, I picked the wrong diff, or it doesn't say what I think it said). The general thrust of my evidence, though, captures my feelings regarding the case, so I am unlikely to make major changes. I am happy to continue discussion either here (or on talk, or wherever a clerk says is correct; as a side note, feel free to move this whole response if this isn't the place to do it).
• I am happy to help ArbCom in any way I can in this matter. I have a feeling, though, that I disagree with you about the "wider perspective" we're supposed to have. I would need more information from you before I could say with certainty if I can/want to do what you propose.
• The last two questions, are, of course, the big ones. I think that the way to avoid ArbCom cases is to have editors act in good faith, according to policies, and communicate in a way that others understand. That hasn't happened consistently on these pages. I plan to propose or comment on other proposals for specific changes to improve the editing environment after some more evidence is up. Which leads me to...

I have a question for you: do you plan to actually submit any evidence in this case? Proposals are all fine and good, but it seems to me that before the Arbitrators can really make a decision about what to do for the future, they need to understand what the problems are now; they gain this understanding through a presentation of evidence. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

@ Magog the Ogre

Do you know the idiomatic express "can't see the forest for the trees"? In your initial analysis of issues in this case, you suggested here that "some rules/guidelines for conduct and censure of the bad apples from Arbcom would be quite helpful". Are you willing to tweak your comment in response to questioning? If so, can you see how it may help ArbCom to revisit your suggestions with a wider perspective? On the basis of lessons learned the hard way, what could have averted this ArbCom case? what about the future? --Tenmei (talk) 19:10, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

@ John Smith's

Do you know the idiomatic express "can't see the forest for the trees"? In your initial analysis of issues in this case, you observed here that you have been "baffled by some discussions" and "disheartened by the lack of ability to agree on almost anything". You also suggest that "[s]ometimes prevention is better than cure". Are you willing to tweak your comment in response to questioning? If so, can you see how it may help ArbCom to revisit your impressions with a wider perspective? On the basis of lessons learned the hard way, what could have averted this ArbCom case? what about the future? --Tenmei (talk) 19:27, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of it.

What exactly is it you want me to tweak and why?

I think the only way the ArbCom case could have been avoided was if certain users had left the disputed pages. But that's what normally happens with disputes that get this far. John Smith's (talk) 10:50, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

You put your finger on a constructive, forward-looking point which is otherwise missing, unacknowledged -- "sometimes prevention is better than cure."

I always understood this to be a unifying theme in your cumulative diffs -- trying to prevent things from getting out of hand, trying to ameliorate, to mitigate the effects of a strategic jabs and pokes and hits which unfolded across months. I perceived your edits as tactical, but your words were informed by analysis which was a little different than mine.

When you and I felt "baffled" and "disheartened", the sense of puzzlement was the effect intended by someone else. Time after time, your responses were arguably constructive; but perhaps something could have been better in one or more instances. I don't know.

Am I alone in wanting ArbCom to help us address difficult-to-formulate questions about what you or I or we could have done differently at each step of the way, e.g.,

1. What could you have done differently to blunt the effects of recurrent poking? What opportunities did you fail to notice? What might you do in future?
2. What could I have done differently to deflect a pattern of provocative diffs? What options did I fail to recognize? What can I do in future when I encounter something similar?
3. What could we have done differently ...?

Why questions like these? The "why" is complicated.

Do you anticipate encountering variant dilemmas in the coming months and years? Is it inevitable that we will always respond ineffectively? For example, your moderate diffs at Talk:Senkaku Islands #Edit warring were marginalized -- twisted by Bobthefish2 and thwarted by Qwyrxian. If you had written nothing, your silence and mine would have encouraged more of the gambit which needed to be discouraged. What you did write didn't work out well. My endorsement didn't help. In retrospect, this was one of the pivotal incidents which illustrate "sometimes prevention is better than cure."

In contrast, Qwyrxian's perception of "both sides pretty much entrenched and non-collaborative" and Mercutio's "plague o' both your houses!" becomes the self-fulfilling prophesy which overwhelms all else.--Tenmei (talk) 15:15, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

@ SirFozzie

In response to your diff here, Please consider this:

• Axiom + Looking forward: A structural premise of arbitration is that all necessary parties have been named; however, the scope of primary issues which frame this case must also encompass future contributors who have not yet caused us to run around the mulberry bush. In other words, it is necessary to anticipate that everything to do with the Senkaku Islands is likely to continue to attract those whose single-purpose perspective will skew our collaborative editing process.

Does this help you (and the rest of us) in coming to grips with the marriage of conduct-related and content-related issues?

Is this premise (or this question) distinguishable from trying to teach fish how to swim (班门弄斧) and talking past each other (鸡同鸭讲 or 雞同鴨講)? --Tenmei (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

@ David Fuchs

In response to your diff here, please consider this:

• Axiom + Looking forward: A structural premise of arbitration is that all necessary parties have been named; however, the scope of primary issues which frame this case must also encompass future contributors who have not yet caused us to run around the mulberry bush. In other words, it is reasonable and necessary to anticipate that everything to do with the Senkaku Islands is likely to continue to attract those whose single-purpose perspective will skew our collaborative editing process.

Does this help you (and the rest of us) in coming to grips with the marriage of conduct-related and content-related issues?

Is this premise (or this question) distinguishable from trying to teach fish how to swim (班门弄斧) and talking past each other (鸡同鸭讲 or 雞同鴨講)? --Tenmei (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

@Jclemens

In response to your diff here, please consider this:

• Axiom + Looking forward: A structural premise of arbitration is that all necessary parties have been named; however, the scope of primary issues which frame this case must also encompass future contributors who have not yet caused us to run around the mulberry bush. In other words, it is reasonable and necessary to anticipate that everything to do with the Senkaku Islands is likely to continue to attract those whose single-purpose perspective will skew our collaborative editing process.

Does this help you (and the rest of us) in establishing a context for addressing the problems "that MedCom defers and throws [ArbCom's] way"?

Is this premise (or this question) distinguishable from trying to teach fish how to swim (班门弄斧) and talking past each other (鸡同鸭讲 or 雞同鴨講)? --Tenmei (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

@Coren

In response to your diff here, please consider this:

• Axiom + Looking forward: A structural premise of arbitration is that all necessary parties have been named; however, the scope of primary issues which frame this case must also encompass future contributors who have not yet caused us to run around the mulberry bush. In other words, it is reasonable and necessary to anticipate that everything to do with the Senkaku Islands is likely to continue to attract those whose single-purpose perspective will skew our collaborative editing process.

Does this help you (and the rest of us) in moving towards the "consensus [which] could be reached if everyone behaved and where Arbcom could help by making sure everybody does"?

Is this premise distinguishable from trying to teach fish how to swim (班门弄斧) and talking past each other (鸡同鸭讲 or 雞同鴨講)? --Tenmei (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Proposed final decision

Proposals by Tenmei

Proposed principles

Purpose of Wikipedia

1) The purpose of Wikipedia is to create and maintain a high-quality encyclopedia using a process of collaborative editing

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Credibility and accuracy

2) The credibility and accuracy of our content is extremely important. Our policy of verifiability requires that article content which is challenged or is likely to be challenged must be attributable to a reliable source supporting the information presented.

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Proposed findings of fact

ArbCom's failure

1) This case is a direct consequence of ArbCom's past failures to act.

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I do not understand this proposal. I don't believe this dispute was ever raised with the Arbitration Committee until this request was filed, whereupon we accepted it fairly quickly. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:42, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

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@Newyorkbrad -- in the context established by your comment here, it is counter-productive to posit that Senkaku Islands represents something like a first impression or an ArbCom "case of first impression" -- compare Coren's hortatory opinion here which informs my thinking. --Tenmei (talk) 18:04, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

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Gaming the system

2) Instances of "gaming the system" highlight flaws which are susceptible to amelioration, mitigation, repair.

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@ SirFozzi and David Fuchs -- Do these underlying premises assist you in coming to grips with the marriage of conduct-related and content-related issues?

@Jclemens -- Does this restatement help establish a context for addressing the problems "that MedCom defers and throws our way"?

@Coren -- Do these otherwise unstated presumptions help us move towards the "consensus [which] could be reached if everyone behaved and where Arbcom could help by making sure everybody does"?

* Premise, Looking forward in the long-term. A structural premise of arbitration is that all necessary parties have been named; however, the scope of primary issues which frame this case must also encompass future contributors who have not yet caused us to run around the mulberry bush. In other words, we can reasonably anticipate that everything to do with the Senkaku Islands is likely to continue to attract those whose single-purpose perspective will skew our collaborative editing process.

* Premise, False dilemma in the near-term. The perception of "both sides pretty much entrenched and non-collaborative" is unhelpful because it is a self-fulfilling prophesy; and it is uninformative. struck out in response to "spin" by Bobthefish2 --Tenmei 22:52, 25 August 2011

@Newyorkbrad -- Does this "re-framing" or "spin" seem responsive to your comments and questions? --Tenmei 20:02, 24 August 2011 struck out and re-posted in questions section --Tenmei (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

One point I'd agree from Tenmei's post is that Qwyrxian's critique about "both sides pretty much entrenched and non-collaborative" is unhelpful and is, in fact, slanderous. Given a number of parties had contributed greatly in bringing clarity to the matter, it is nothing short of insulting to condemn everyone's participation as "non-collaborative" and "entrenched". --Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Re: Tenmei's strike-out shown immediately above [4]. This is an example of Tenmei's attitude where he regularly attacks the intentions of other people with labels like "spin", "toxic long-term warrior", "marginalize", "shill", etc. Here's a small (but not limiting) sample of similar attacks in the past [5][6][7]. It wouldn't have been a problem if these comments were backed up by real arguments, but they really weren't. :/ --Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

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Proposed remedies

These are not all my words, but I propose them as if they were my own. --Tenmei (talk) 17:12, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Real world factions

1) ArbCom acknowledges real-world factions that vie for control over articles, turning them into polemical battlegrounds where surface civility is used to cover bias, tendentiousness and even harassment.

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We are well aware that this is another example of an ethnic-national dispute of a type that gives rise to a great number of disputes on Wikipedia, including a significant portion of arbitration cases. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

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@Newyorkbrad -- is it possible for you to perceive the overview you posit is part of the problem, not part of the solution? The phrase "another example of an ethnic-national dispute" contrives arguably reasonable pigeonholes and a false dilemma at the same time. For example, the perception of "both sides pretty much entrenched and non-collaborative" is unhelpful, not because it is obviously false, but because it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Your sentence has a similar self-fulfilling character which tends to obscure rather than clarify. For example, the analysis fails to acknowledge -- and marginalizes -- the cumulative edits of Qwyxian, including his ability and willingness to change across a span of months, as explained here.

In this ArbCom context, your task is to parse the available data to distinguish between a dispute which is primarily about water and rocks and something else which has water and rocks as significant elements. Do you see the difference? Are your words opening a door or shutting out something unforseen? --Tenmei (talk) 19:47, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

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Rules and policies as weapons

2) ArbCom acknowledges "polite disruption" by those who misuse our rules and policies as weapons.

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Vested toxic warriors

3) ArbCom acknowledges toxic long-term warriors who are misconstrued as "vested" contributors.

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Information asymmetry and moral hazard

4) ArbCom acknowledges the marriage of "content" and "conduct" informed by the related concepts of Information asymmetry (ja:情報の非対称性) and Moral hazard (zh:道德风险); and this means less timidity in addressing issues related to content including POV warring, tag teams, academic dishonesty, etc.

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I do not understand specifically what you are driving at with this proposal. Please explain in a bit more detail (but only a bit more, please). Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:44, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

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These concepts are illustrated in the diffs of Qwyrxian and Bobthefish2 in one short thread Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 7#U.S. Control prior to 1972. --Tenmei (talk) 19:49, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

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Curtailing content disputes

5) ArbCom acknowledges that failure to curtail content disputes has unintended consequences. Wikipedia fails when academic integrity is not a priority, e.g., unlike "simple" incivility, the damage caused by editors misquoting, plagiarizing and editorializing affects the credibility of our work.

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Transparency

6) ArbCom acknowledges that inadequate transparency in the dispute resolution process limits the ability of the community to find ways to mitigate future problems.

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Reasons and justification

7) ArbCom acknowledges that there is a need for ArbCom to explain decision-making, including reasons and justification.

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This is why we use a somewhat stereotyped, sometimes overlong format for our decisions in full-fledged arbitration cases like this one. I gather that you are alleging that the committee has failed to provide adequate explanation in a relevant, past instance when this dispute was raised before us, but as noted above, I do not recall that and would appreciate a link or a citation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

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Analysis of evidence

Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis

Edit-wars and Gaming the System

Note: Most of the diffs were taken from evidence page.

I saw that Qwyrxian commented in his evidence [8] that I have a willingness to game the system (xe advocated getting the page locked so that people give up and leave. I'd say this is very untrue. Rather, I intended to petition an admin to lock the page due to the great deal of disruptive editing and borderline edit-warring going on. This sentiment, ironically, was echoed by Qwyrxian back then [9]:

heck, I even find the comments of some of the editors on what (Bob perceives as) "our side" to be frustrating. It's a difficult environment to work in when even changes of 2 or 3 words are argued over ad nauseum -- Qwyrxian

While my intent was simply to petition an admin to protect the page in a legitimate manner (which I did [10], and I even requested another editor not to engage in edit-wars [11]), a number of editors thought it's a good idea to go after me. First, I got this warning from John Smith accusing me of edit-warring [12] (is that the only way to get a page locked?). Then he continued [13] to accuse me of edit-warring. After putting me through all the crap, he finally did manage to bait me into saying some not very nice things about him [14] and then he started whining about being treated poorly [15]. Tenmei also did not help with matters. Rather, he fanned the flames and endorsed [16] John Smith's motion.

Ironically, these pages were eventually locked for reasons related to their actions and not mine. As it turns out, they edit-warred with some other editors and exhausted Nihonjoe's patience [17]. Then just days later, they'd get another page locked over another edit-war [18].

As if the matter would end (or I would receive any apologies - yeah like that's going to happen), Tenmei asserted that the pages were locked because I had somehow magically manipulated them into edit-warring [19][20].

Food for thought, guys.

And before we forget, here's a friendly reminder: This entry is about accusations of gaming the system, edit-warring, and being nasty - which were all directed at me. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:29, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

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That was just one example. If you want another example, your defense here, in this section, is another. You made a claim in two places that you should get the page locked--not because there was edit warring at that moment, but because you thought it would make people leave. You said that explicitly in your comment to STSC (and your choice of articles where people should go further points to your intent). This is your standard practice: make a statement that is provocative, offensive, insulting, or otherwise questionable, then come up with an elaborate justification to try to demonstrate that you always meant well and you're always the victim. But you're not--you're the instigator, the cause, the point from which the problem flows. I sincerely believe that a careful examination of your overall editor behavior shows this very conclusively. This is not to say that you don't have strengths (your careful explanation of Google searches was valuable, for instance), but that your negative points far out weigh the benefits you provide, at least with respect to these sets of articles. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:29, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

That's rather incorrect. Locking pages does not actually force people to leave. Rather, it renders the article pages impermeable to any changes (including mine) until the protection is lifted. And as I've quoted your younger self back then, you were also quite fed up with my opponents' behaviours too, what caused this change of mind? Oh, and I haven't started with you yet (i.e. the part where you gamed the system with another admin). This is just part of a series to show how several parties here have consistently singling their opponents out for criticisms while being terrible contributors themselves. Your rant about me being the instigator of everything is a show of how unquestionably biased and entrenched you've become. Because, as far as I know, I wasn't the one who caused the arrest of discussions, locking of pages, or the collapse of the mediation. And before you proceed with your self-righteous rants, I'd sincerely suggest you to look at yourself first. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

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Battleground, Tag-Teaming, and Canvass

I saw that I was accused by Qwyrxian for BATTLEGROUND and Oda Mari for Tag-teaming and CANVASS.

Battleground

To address Qwyrxian's assertion, I would like to show a number of quotes by different editors. In this diff [21] written by Qwyrxian in Feb 4, 2011, he wrote:

I'm not talking about the current problem. I'm talking that every single little change causes either an edit war, a near edit war, or such a massive, overwhelming talk page discussion with both sides pretty much entrenched and non-collaborative. This particular point is just an example. If we don't go into mediation, I can discuss the solution to this particular point, but I don't think anyone is going to like it, and I don't think the current tone on this page is going to allow for a serious consideration of it

While I don't consider myself entrenched, this quote is quite telling of Qwyrxian's own interpretation of events... namely, there is a great deal of stubbornness and an astounding lack of cooperative effort. With that point noted, it's a distinct lack of AGF on his part to accuse me of BATTLEGROUND over diffs where I showed pessimism towards the objectivity of other editors... and again, this is all in a context where he considered parties of either side to be "entrenched and non-collaborative".

Now, this wouldn't be something if I don't show a few examples of "battlegroundness" of other parties:

• [22] - Pro-Chinese editors?
• [23] - Truck load about conspiracies, baiting, etc, etc, you name it
• [24] - An ArbCom statement accused Lvhis of canvassing the support of a Chinese admin; Accused opponents as SPA; Statements like mess began after 2010 Senkaku boat collision incident and was caused by some Chinese editors driven by their nationalism at the incident.
• [25] - ANI opened on Penwhale for being Chinese admin who commits COI
• [26] - ArbCom statement about how editors who dispute [Japanese government possession] too strongly give the impression that they are trying to reclaim the islands on behalf of the government which claims previous ownership.
• And pretty much everything from that previous section about edit-wars where some people went on a wild campaign against some phantom edit-war conspiracy.

Canvass

Next, there's Oda Mari's allegation of CANVASS [27]. The simple answer is that it wasn't deliberate even if there was any. The Oct 7 quotes saw me inviting two experienced editor in zh:WP who had recently edited the page. I did consider the page to be quite biased and would like second opinions from zh:WP editors (whom I had no interactions with) to see if that's the case. As the diffs indicated, I did not invite them to any specific discussion and I explicitly asked them to be objective. If that wasn't enough, I'd also point out that (1) I was one month old in WP at the time of writing and (2) Nobody raised any red flags about this (including Oda Mari). The other "canvassing" comment [28] was not a canvass attempt. It was related to this thread [29] where we were debating about naming conventions. Somehow, Phoenix7777, John Smith's, and Oda Mari decided to make claims about the Chinese languages which Lvhis, STSC, myself, and others considered to be wrong. Since a resolution could not be reached between both sides, I raised the suggestion of asking Project China and zh:WP for advice (because this is a matter about the Chinese language). After declaring my intent for numerous times in the thread without being given any objections, Lvhis and I went ahead with that (which is why these "canvass" posts occurred). On a less related matter: This discussion is part of a side-show of the Mediation that failed and an indirect cause of Mediation failure. Namely, Phoenix7777 made similar complaints about CANVASS, the MedCom defended our actions, and he then attacked the mediator forcing the Mediation to a close.

Tag-Team

Since Oda Mari considers my collaboration with STSC and Lvhis to be tag-teaming, then I should show some examples of talk-page-based collaboration of other people. Reading these diffs is not required. They are just listed for reference:

1. About baiting - [30][31]
2. About baiting - [32]
3. About being Pro-Wikipedia - [33][34][35]
4. About opponents being single purpose accounts who aren't here to build an encyclopedia - [36]
5. Something about ridiculous and collaboration - [37]
6. Something about pro-Chinese editors - [38]
7. and so on ... Here's a link [39] to plow through the rest of Tenmei's contributions in talk pages

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General discussion

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