Talk:Bern

Berne or Bern?

see Talk:Canton of Bern -User:Docu

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National Reach Around Festival

Finally, the "National Reach Around Festival" has been removed from the festivals section. I noticed it over 2 years ago when consulting Wikipedia before a trip to Bern. Curious, I asked a friend who lived there if there was such as thing, and she had never heard of it. I checked the history page and found the National Reach Around Festival had been added years ago.

I considered removing the entry, but I didn't want to rob future travelers of the joy of trying to imagine the logistics of such a festival. Kudos to whoever listed it, and to whoever lives at 84.75.118.108 for finally removing it! Although I am a bit sad to see it go. I've been spreading the word about the Festival for 2 years hoping life would imitate art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.75.162.188 (talk) 01:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Capital

On de:Diskussion:Schweiz is a discussion documented, which declares, that Bern is not the capital of Switzerland but the "Bundesstadt" which has a different meaning, but is in fact nearly the same. --193.134.254.115 08:52, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Bundesstadt" translates to "Federal City". The Swiss "Federal (Supreme) Court" is located in Lausanne, Canton of Vaud. That seperation of the legislative city (Bern) from the judical supreme court city (Lausanne) is probably the reason that Bern is not considered the "capital" of Switzerland. However, most of the Federal offices are located in Bern. The problem with not recognizing Bern as the capital is probably related to Switzerland being originally a Confederation until 1848 with equally sovereign state members -- none supreme to the others in any way. Now it is functionally a Federation, but retaining the name "Confederation." --TGC55 12:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Spelling consistency

Without wanting to appear pedantic, there are a few issues in this article with regar to spelling consistency: theatre, for instance, is used in both its US and UK variant. Judging from the use of movie theater for cinema and from Berne's English name rendered as rhotic [ˈbɝːn], I suspect the initial target was American English. I therefore suggest modifying the few British variants into their American counterparts. JREL 21:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

List cleanup

The lists in this article must be cleaned up. Right now the article looks more like a tourist brochure than a encyclopedic article. /Grillo 13:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Bern vs. Berne

Can/will someone please, explain, and/or add, to this article regarding these two spelling forms of the city? I also am conerned with the Bern Trial vs. the Bern Trial.

Thanks, Ludvikus 07:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Essentially, Bern is the locally used (High) German form, while Berne is the French and traditional English form. Our usage is inconsistent, and I'm thinking of setting up a RfC about it. Sandstein 21:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, done, please see Talk:Canton_of_Berne#Spelling_request_for_comment. Sandstein 22:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Santo Domingo

Is there a reference for this addition. If there is, it should be kept, but the information added to the infobox. -- User:Docu

Requested move, January 2008

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No consensus. User:Docu

Berne → Bern — Per Talk:Canton_of_Berne#Spelling_request_for_comment. To me, "Berne" looks kinda strange, I had to use google to see that it was actually in good use in English. It's always been "Bern" on any map I've owned, etc. There does seem to be a good balance between the two usages, but besides my personal loathing of silent "e"s, when there's balance between an archaic French-influenced English name and a native one fully integrated in modern English, the modern native name should be preferred. —Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Survey, 2008

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support as nom. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Bern is the German, Berne the French, spelling, of the city. Berne, like Nuremberg, is traditional in English; for those who care, local and official usage is divided. See #Usage in reliable English language sources above, and leave well enough alone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• I'd say Berne is more like Basle than Nuremburg, the last of which is made more difficult by a non-English character. Bern is English BTW, and happens unlike the archaic Berne with the silent "e" to correspond with native usage. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Close poll at this stage. Because local and official usage is divided, as noted above, we could benefit from a more thorough discussion at the RfC first. If and when we decide to move this, the name would have to be changed throughout Wikipedia and on Commons, a huge endeavour. Sandstein (talk) 09:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose per Pmanderson, Berne is the English name. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 19:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • This is incorrect; both are used in English, "Berne" less so than "Bern". Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Bern is the common name. EJF (talk) 17:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
• I support this move - the Google result is persuasive, especially given that most of the results for Berne are for pages titled and predominantly using Bern. Also, Encarta, Britannica and Columbia encyclopaedias all use Bern for the article title. I am convinced Bern is now the predominant English language usage. Knepflerle (talk) 15:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - Berne is the English name. Google hits prove nothing in this close spelling difference (there are millions of spelling errors picked up by Google - do they all have credibility?) So "Bern" might be considered a predominant name in English - but that doesn't mean that it is correct. Just because a lot of people say the same thing, it does not mean that it is the right thing (see Wikiality). One simple source that nobody has mentioned so far is the website of the city itself: www.bern.ch - now if you go to the English-language section it says that the name of the city in English is Berne, never Bern. Now, if anyone should know the name of the city in English, then it should be the city itself. As for Basel, the English section of www.basel.ch uses Basel and not Basle, so in that case we can say that there is an archaic version no longer used, but not Berne. Leave well enough alone- 52 Pickup ^(deal) 19:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion, 2008

Any additional comments:

• Comment People above are saying Bern isn't used in English; this is pure nonsense. If anything, it's Berne that isn't used. It's plain archaic, and honestly, I've rarely encountered it ... seems a bit like Basle or even Aix-la-Chapelle. Anyways the US government seems to be under the impression Bern is English, as do the BBC, CNN, etc. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Just to add, googling with the query: "bern switzerland -site:wikipedia.org", we get:

• • • 252,000 for Berne

• • • 2,190,000 for Bern

• • • So Bern gets 10 times the hits as Berne and people are saying "Bern" is not English. Wonders indeed will never cease. WP:UE does not mean employ archaic terms for the sake of English difference. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Berne/Bern/Berna

At Talk:Canton_of_Berne#Spelling_request_for_comment, there is an extended discussion on the topic. Please contribute-- User:Docu

That discussion gives the impression of being dead. As you'll see from my nom, I'd already seen it. Besides the fact that native names for modern cities are always preferable (for me) per se, the evidence I've seen shows conclusively this city is predominantly called Bern. Besides that, it's wrong to give the impression that the city is French when its actually, like most of Switzerland, (Swiss) German. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. We should reopen the discussion. --DerRichter (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it should be changed, and not discussed any longer. "Traditional" English is not necessarily correct. (See Basel v. Basle). I would say that the current spelling is what should be used and the predominant current English is Bern. RickH86 (talk) 15:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I would agree for the city, officially recorded as German-speaking, but not for the canton, officially bilingual, where the usual (maybe old) exonym should prevail. The Bernese themselves may vote against this idea, since such a move sanctions their loss of political clout ;-) . Clpda (talk) 22:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

this sounds reasonable. There appears to be a tendency in English language sources in recent decades to move closer to the 'native' spelling. I am sure it would have been Berne all the way 30 years ago, but now it may actually be true that Bern is winning out. As with Zürich/Zurich, we can go either way here. --dab (𒁳) 08:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I support a move to Bern. In fact I was very surprised to find out that it is called Berne here when I randomly ended up here. If we have Zürich I can't see why we don't have Bern. Närking (talk) 17:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

It should be moved to Bern. I recently noticed that The New York Times also uses Bern.[1][2][Bern Travel Guide]--Ami in CH (talk) 01:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Having the page at Berne is particularly inappropriate when the city is specifically mentioned in Wikipedia:WikiProject Swiss municipalities/Article title conventions. That clearly states that Bern should be used. The convention goes on to quote two instances where the traditional English names of cities should be used : Lucerne rather than Luzern and Geneva rather than Genève. In view of this the page should move back to Bern. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Zentrum Paul Klee? and the Maesta???!!!!!

Really amazing that 1 - there is no mention of Paul Klee immigration to Bern and his long-term residence there! 2- no mention either of Switzerland's largest museum and one of the most impressive in the world = Zentrum Paul Klee - Completed in 2007 - It is of outstanding architecture and truly one of the world's great art collections + an edicational and multilingual center that blows people away! How can this possibly have been overlooked??? One of the greatest Expressionist painters of all times and an incredible monument to him! Wow!

Furthermore, there is the National Art Gallery of Switzerland which has prehistoric to contemporary collections and after Paul Klee it is indeed Switzerland's 2nd largest museum and it houses in incredible collection including Duccio's Maesta!!!! see: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/d/duccio/buoninse/4bern.html -How can any one go to Bern and not bother to go see the Maesta which is world famous and anyone who has taken the most rudimentary art history class has studied in-depth! This article is revulting!!!!!!! 205.172.16.60 (talk) 06:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi. Please read WP:SOFIXIT.  Sandstein  08:03, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Tea gardens?

When I visited Berne many years ago, I was struck by the many Tea gardens or Tea shops, contrasting sharply with the many coffee shops elsewhere in Europe. They were especially numerous near the clock tower shown in the article, under the arcades. Is this still to be found? If someone knows, can it be added to the article? --DThomsen8 (talk) 13:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

Berne → Bern — Relisted by User:Deacon of Pndapetzim. Dekimasuよ! 00:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

There has been consensus since January 2008 (see discussion above under "Berne/Bern/Berna") for a move to "Bern". Skinsmoke (talk) 13:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

• I am one of three who opposed this in January 2008, and I still do. I don't see why we should pick and choose among the four official languages of Switzerland; we should stay with the traditional English choice amongst them. Those who argue that this is a German-speaking canton should consider the parallel case of Cologne, also in a Germanic Land. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Make this Stronge oppose and ignore Deacon on the ground of WP:ENGVAR and WP:UE. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
    • What on earth are you talking about? Bern is the most common English name. :/ Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Only because American is more common than the Commonwealth dialects put together. It's clear that needs to be an exception to WP:NCGN; it is news to me that we need to say this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
• Currently weak support. Both variants are in active and apparently interchangeable use in English, to the extent that the city itself uses both at the same time on its official English website, http://www.bern.ch/weiche_en. But whichever variant we use, we should be consistent across the project. I'll notify WP:CH of this request.  Sandstein  18:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support. Bern is BGN Standard. Närking (talk) 18:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
  • See WP:NCGN. This is a fancy way of saying that it is the local official name, which we do not use unless it is also normal usage in English. Firenze is BGN Standard for Florence, but we use the conventional name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, WP:NCGN gives Bern and not Berne. Närking (talk) 18:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. See my evidence below. The usage seems to depend on the variant of English used. Withdraw oppose. Apparently UK does use both spellings of the name. Jafeluv (talk) 17:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Berne" is the standard English name for this city. Withdraw, no preference. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 20:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
• Strongest possible Support. Native name (having it at "Berne" gives the wrong impression that the city is French, when it isn't), and standard English name. What more do you want? Absolutely no question where this page should be ... BERN! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:11, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Not, and never has been, our criterion for making such decisions. Any move on this basis will be manifestly improper. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Oh give us a break. That's exactly how names are determined on wikipedia. Even if there is doubt that Bern is the main English name in UK, which it probably is now, WP:PLACE is clear:

      If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. An example is Livorno, which is now known more widely under its native name than under the traditional English name "Leghorn".If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name.

    • What's to argue? This is a no brainer. The article should be moved to Bern whatever the numbers are here. I mean, it's not like Berne is most common in English and fighting a battle against the native name, like Kiev versus Kyiv. The native name and the most common English name are the same ... Bern. --Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Prove that, and prove that most commmon does not = the American dialect, and I will agree. But your original post made no mention of English usage - and suggested that you had gone over to advocating Firenze and İstanbul. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
        • My original post said standard English name. You must have missed it. Anyway, a quick google search within the UK shows what any literate denizen of the country could tell you, searching <Bern Swizerland>
          • Bern variant 193,000
          • Berne variant 70500
        • It's not beyond shadow of doubt proof by any means, but it's tough to behold if your argument is that it should be at Berne because it the good UK English form. Clearly it's not. Clearly in the UK, just like everywhere else in the English-speaking world, it is more often than not spelled the same way the natives spell it. This whole convo is farcical. This is about the most one-sided "debate" I've ever seen on wikipedia. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
        • At least have some consistency in your arguments Septentrionalis. Firstly you opposed on the grounds that we should be using the English form rather than the German form. When evidence was produced that Bern was the English form you then opposed on the grounds that we should be using the British English version rather than the American English version. When evidence was then produced that Bern was also used in British English as well as in Australian English, Swedish English, Indian English, Indonesian English, Swiss English, Dutch English and South African English you dismissed that as "cherry picking". To remind you of your comment at 21:55 on 25 May 2009, "Solid evidence that Bern is English usage, in general, would persuade me." It has been. Now stop pushing your personal preference and accept reality. Bern is the version used overwhelmingly internationally in English, and is even widely used in the United Kingdom. Berne is probably the version used overwhelmingly in French English and is still widely used in the United Kingdom. On that basis, the article should go back to its original title of Bern. Skinsmoke (talk) 04:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
          • I stand by the conclusion, which I was neither the first nor the last to reach, that Bern is normal usage in the United States, Berne in the Commonwealth (there are exceptions, both ways; Canada, as often, divides. In both cases, so what?) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose per User:Jafeluv's argument. — AjaxSmack 18:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

• You don't mean Support? The most common UK form is the same as the most common US and the same as the native form: Bern. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support. If one makes a Google search without including Wikipedia in the results, Bern is far more common. (Bern vs. Berne) Hayden120 (talk) 23:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support - Bern seems to be far more frequent in English usage. "Traditional English" naming is irrelevant. --skew-t (talk) 12:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose as the first spelling in the article was Berne Revision as of 15:43, 25 February 2002 and the reason for change seems to violate WP:NC#National varieties of English as there are no strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation. --PBS (talk) 13:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
• Support. It the sources show one thing about English usage, it is that there is no established usage for “Berne”. So WP:USEENGLISH#No established usage applies. — 3247 (talk) 13:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
• Support. Both Berne and Bern are used officially in English but the latter is more common. I would prefer Bern because it is also the native name. This does not apply to the Canton of Berne which is also French-speaking. MadGeographer (talk) 14:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
  • By what rationale does this "not apply to the Canton of Berne"? According to Wikipedia, the city is 81% German speaking and the canton is 84% German speaking. (Both the city and the canton are about 4% French speaking.) And what does that have to do with the English name of the city? — AjaxSmack 02:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Bern is the most common English name, as PMA himself admitted. It's borderline WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT to continue to portray this debate as UE versus nativist. This is almost as bizarre as citing WP:NC#National varieties of English to argue based on a few cherry-picked sources that "Berne" is most common in English usage in UK, despite google and other such surveys clearly showing Bern is too. Re the canton, "Bern" is both the native (majority) and English name for the canton; the only significant difference is that French-speakers in Bern city are immigrants, whereas there is a small part of the canton where French is indigenous. Thus the nativist argument, which like it or not is an important part of the thinking of most wikipedians, doesn't have the same strength; though this shouldn't matter as the most common English name is still Bern. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Er, just for the record, I am a native and a longtime resident of Berne (hence also my username), and it has never been particularly important to me (or anyone I know here) how the name is spelled in English. As a matter of Wikipedia usage, it should be the version most familiar to English speakers. I do have a feeling that this may increasingly be "Bern", but all I have to back this up is anecdotal evidence, i.e., my experience in reading English-language texts relating to Switzerland.  Sandstein  05:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Solid evidence that Bern is English usage, in general, would persuade me. Some comments on this page suggest this is another Anglo-American divergence, in which case we should not move. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree with User:Pmanderson above that United States Board on Geographic Names (BGN) usage conflicts with Wikipedias's own naming conventions for geographic names and is not much of a basis for a move. Also, since the nomimator is claiming a change in consensus, ideally participants in the previous RM should also be notified. — AjaxSmack 03:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's see, then. Some sources:

• The CIA World Factbook uses "Bern".
• The University of Bern uses "Bern" in English.
• The Encyclopædia Britannica calls the city "Bern" and notes that it is "also spelled Berne".
• Time calls the city "Bern" here, here and here.
• The New York Times calls the city "Bern" here, here and here.
• The BBC calls the city "Bern" here and "Berne" here, here and here.
• The official site uses both "Bern" and "Berne" in English.
• The UK embassy is located in "Berne".
• The US embassy is located in "Bern".

As requested, there's proof that "Bern" is used in English, and is pretty much the only usage in the United States. "Berne" may be more common in the UK, however. Jafeluv (talk) 12:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

A straight Anglo-American division, except for one BBC outlier. (The Britannica has been published in Chicago for years.) More British sources welcome. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:28, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

A search in Google News also gives far more hits for Bern than Berne. Närking (talk) 17:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

That is what I would expect if this is an Anglo-American divergence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the Britannica is published in the US, but they still use British spelling. Anyway, some british sources:

• The Guardian: Berne, Berne, Berne, Bern, Bern, Bern
• Telegraph: Berne, Berne, Berne (seems to use "Berne" consistently)
• Times Online: Berne, Berne, Berne (seems to use "Berne" consistently)

Anyone can add more by consulting this site. In my opinion, this is clearly a US ("Bern") versus UK ("Berne") spelling issue. Therefore, no move needed. Jafeluv (talk) 17:58, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see the clear US/UK divide. If anything it seems like US usage strongly favors Bern, and UK usage is a bit more mixed. It's hard to tell from a random selection of articles from few newspapers a clear preference. Some Google searching of "pages in the UK" shows some preference for dropping the e with ~200k for Bern and ~72k for Berne. Australia has a similar results with smaller magnitude of 6k to 3k, and Canada is 25k to 6k.

It looks like one can specify the country of the news source on Google News too. Not a lot of news about Bern at the moment, but there are 28 hits for Bern and 14 for Berne from UK news sources. Canadian sources are 25 to 3 for Bern. --skew-t (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

• Comment in Canada, both spellings are used... so... WP:ENGVAR - leave it well enough alone? 70.29.208.129 (talk) 04:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Berne is particularly inappropriate when the city is specifically mentioned in Wikipedia:WikiProject Swiss municipalities/Article title conventions. That clearly states that Bern should be used. The convention goes on to quote two instances where the traditional English names of cities should be used : Lucerne rather than Luzern and Geneva rather than Genève. The present title goes directly against the agreed policy.

This is much more complicated than a simple divergeance between British and American forms of English. Both variations are used in the United Kingdom, as has already been demonstrated above. The Swiss themselves even use both versions in their English language texts. There is no doubt that in the past Berne was more common in English. These days, Bern hs become as commonplace. Consider the following examples :-

Booking.com : Hotels in Bern

Switzerland.isyours.com : Bern

University of Bern

Bern.com : All About Switzerland

Intellicast : Weather Report Bern, Switzerland

Encyclopaedia Britannica : Bern

Time and Date : Local Time in Bern

Council of Europe : Convention on the Conservation of European Wildlife and Natural Habitats : Bern

The Embassy of the Republic of Indonesia in Bern

Nicola from Bern

Swissworld : Bern

Einsteinhaus Bern

Activities of the European Union : Bern Convention

Skyscanner : Cheap Flights to Bern

A-Z World Airports : Bern Airport

Rhino Car Hire : Bern Airport

Argus Car Hire : Bern Airport

Fodor's Travel : Bern

Royal Netherlands Embassy in Bern

Joint Nature Conservation Committee (United Kingdom) : The Bern Convention

International Jazzfestival : About Bern

Kunsthalle Bern : Portrait

Kunstmuseum Bern : The Museum of Fine Arts Bern

Hotel Novotel Bern Expo : Directions

Bern by Europe Cities

International Space Science Institute : History

Historic Cities : Bern

European Geography Association for Students and Young Geographers : Bern News

Regiringskansliet : Government Offices of Sweden : Embassy of Sweden, Bern

Swissinfo : Bern Sinks Youth Visa Agreement with Australia

Embassy of India, Bern, Switzerland

South African Embassy Bern

Lonely Planet : Introducing Bern

British Broadcasting Corporation : Bern Bears Get Chance of Liberty

Guardian News and Media : Instant Weekend Bern

The New York Times : Immigration, Black Sheep and Swiss Rage

The Daily Telgraph (Australia) : Sydney Among Best Cities to Live

Daily Mirror : UN Expert Concerned About Displaced in Sri Lanka

Holiday Autos : Car Hire : Bern Airport

Expedia : Durban, South Africa to Bern, Switzerland

Expedia (United Kingdom) : Bern Hotels

Skinsmoke (talk) 15:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• How nice; a few of this cherry-picked selection are even in British English, and do show that English usage does sometimes vary. We knew that. As clear an example of the abuse of google as I have ever seen.
• If Skinsmoke's real motive here is the non-existent authority of a project subpage (this one is the product of a single editor in a single edit in 2005, has never been discussed, and has been linked to exactly once, outside of the project itself and the present discussion), then he has serious misunderstandings of how we work.
• If there is some other motive, he will get more sympathy by admitting whatever it is, at which point we can discuss it. I cannot guarantee he will change my mind. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

And where was the page linked from? Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)! The main place any editor is going to look for advice on naming conventions! Skinsmoke (talk) 04:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Possibly WP:NCGN should not have. These are see alsos, accumulated over a long period of time (at a different page), intended to show what discussions have happened, whether consensus or not. Several of the pages linked to are inactive or historic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)