Talk:Rachel Corrie

Policies

(Please do not archive. New editors are asked to read this section carefully before editing.)

Because this is a contentious article, all edits should conform strictly not only to WP:NPOV, but also to the policies and guidelines regarding sources: WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:RS. Jointly these say:

• Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, analyses, or ideas.
• The above may be published in Wikipedia only if already published by a reliable source.
• A "source" refers to the publication Wikipedia obtained the material from (e.g. The New York Times). It does not refer to the original source of the material (i.e. wherever The New York Times obtained the information from).
• A "reliable source" in the context of Rachel Corrie means:
  • articles in mainstream newspapers, books that are not self-published, scholarly papers, official reports, trial transcripts, congressional reports or transcripts, and similar;
  • no personal websites, blogs, or other self-published material unless the website or blog was Corrie's own, in which case it may be used with caution, so long as the material is notable, is not unduly self-aggrandizing, and is not contradicted by reliable third-party sources;
  • no highly biased political websites unless there is clearly some editorial oversight or fact-checking process.

The house Corrie believed she was protecting?

Ironduke, what is in dispute with the wording that has been reverted? That she was protecting a house or which house she was protecting. Adding the part about "she believed" should be avoided it seems. Maybe just remove mention of Corrie and say something like..It was reported in 2006 that the Nasrallah family house was rebuilt with funds raised by The Rebuilding Alliance....Anyways, Tom 04:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

She was trying to do something, that also includes believing she was doing something, but adding an extra believe really makes the push. Like I try to answer you, but if you say, you believe you were answering me, it points you don't believe I am actually answering you, so that sentence not neutral at all. I didn't say she was protecting or she believe she was protecting since they both is not neutral, she was trying to protect is a neutral sentence though. Kasaalan (talk) 00:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie at AFD

I've started an AFD about the Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie, so if anyone wants to comment, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I voted not to delete or merge the Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie page with Rachel Corrie main article. I added a keep vote to the page since the page created after an agreement in here because the main article needs to be separated or will be too long for article and reference parts. Kasaalan (talk) 16:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I would like to reiterate my opinion that the amount of attention received by these artistic tributes is completely out of proportion to either their artistic merit or their political importance. Take, for example, the cantata by Philip Munger, The Skies are Weeping: this piece of music has about 3500 words devoted to it in the Wikipedia. Compare that to Handel's Messiah (2700 words), Beethoven's Mass in C major (400 words), or the Mozart Requiem (about 5000 words). Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring, arguably the most controversial piece of music ever written (there were riots at its first performance), gets 4700 words.

I am familiar with Philip Munger's cantata (I am probably one of the few) and, in my opinion, it is not a bad piece. But I don't think that even Philip Munger himself would consider it on a par with the great choral works of the classics, or suggest that it should receive more extensive coverage in this encyclopedia than Handel or Beethoven.

The article itself is really not about the cantata at all, but is almost entirely about the politics surrounding its composition, and specifically about the cancellation of the scheduled premiere because of objections from a segment of the Alaska Jewish community. It includes the complete text of a piece of hatemail sent by a hoaxter, but not a single musical quotation from the work itself. --Ravpapa (talk) 14:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The page you refer is not artistic tributes to rachel corrie page we discussing here. What we discuss here is Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie, and it has detailed contents of the my skies are weeping cantata and if you like we can expand the article by adding content but that is also no reason for deleting a summary like article.

If you would compare the articles by their word count, and if you feel mozart's composition needs heavier weight than why don't you try adding into it than feel like trimming other articles down. Simple question. Because adding and researching info is hard but deleting is easy. Take your time try improving the Mozart's article if you like.

You claim the article is long, maybe, but it has surrounding events and people that try to ban the composition from premiere. Some people try to threaten Munger to stop the premiere. So did Mozart got threaten messages for Requiem that we not heard of, or any of its performers felt their security in danger, or did anyone try to ban his Requiem from premiere. No. Same for Messiah (Handel). So anyone didn't mention it in the article, which doesn't add to the article. Or should we wait untill messiah to come for resolving this issue. Wikipedia has no space limitation but content limitation. If you holding the rabbi's side fine, but even if you do we should also expand his views in the article not substracting any. Limiting articles is no good way for helping wikipedia or any race or religion.

I don't have all the time in the world finding the references for the articles already took immense time. So if you are familiar with the cantata and classical music, why don't you add some info to that part or try improving it. Or if you like why don't you help wikifying the article. I can only welcome you but everyone complaining yet I didn't happen to came across much editors that help me improving the article. Kasaalan (talk) 15:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Because the article is not worthy of improvement. That is my whole point. Enough said. --Ravpapa (talk) 15:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You voted for deletion here, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Compositions task force.

For my part I can say tough recording quality is low and choir-solo parts could be improved, music is good, 7. Rachel's Words, especially 1. Psalm 137 and 2. Dance for Tom Hurndall, some lyrics are strong, and visual performances are great.

You say you don't like to add to the article, fine, if you change your mind I welcome you improving the article. But what is your exact point here, does keeping the article long makes Beethoven offended. No. Then what. It makes you offended maybe. So what. The total number of works and length of Beethoven's, Haendel's or Mozart's works already multiple of times than the single work of Philip Munger. So your logic is not true. Kasaalan (talk) 16:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Also you should be clearly joking on the weight issue.

Let me follow your logic since Music of Israel is way longer than Music of China and longer than Music of Turkey, then the music of Israel should be more important than music of Turkey and way important than music of China. But this isn't the case, is it. No. So should we trim down music of Israel to balance weight. No. If I feel like the balance is broken, than I should add to the music of China page. It would be wrong otherwise, isn't it. The question here is, can you at least admit it.

My advice, if you follow a proper logic instead inventing new ones according to your personal political thoughts, the chances that you may end up with more reliable thoughts will be higher.

Admiring Rabbis and Israel shouldn't affect your opinions on the matter. Any article is worthy of improving. That is the whole point of wikipedia. Either you have time for it or don't. That is the job of independent editors. It may not be true for Israelipedia or Zionipedia but I am not an editor there.

Following your logic, Your logic is false, I proved it, end of discussion. Kasaalan (talk) 15:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Deletion Review For Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie

I asked for a deletion review for Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie. Kasaalan (talk) 13:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Corrie's death and subsequent controversy

The first few lines of this paragraph are completely POV. It takes the position, refuted by Israel, that the bulldozer was engaged in a house demolition. I tried to to balance it by including the Israeli POV, but it was undone because a user didn't like the source. The IDF report is mentioned in hundreds of sites, though it wasn't officially released to the media.

Additionally, the paragraph cites an anachronistic Al Jazeera source which contends that the the tunnels were being used "used for consumer goods impossible to acquire due to Israel's blockade." This information is from a 2008 report which was completely irrelevant in 2003 at the time of the incident because there was no blockade preventing consumer goods from entering Gaza until the June 2007 Hamas takover of Gaza.

I will delete the Al Jazeera reference and rewrite the first few lines when I get a chance. Wikieditorpro (talk) 03:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

First of all be bold and add material, but if you going to remove information from the article, you should first discuss. Second removing content will not help NPOV, but if you feel Israeli side is missing, do some research and post your results. I don't object that, more Israeli sided views might be needed, yet for balancing article removing non-Israeli side views is not a proper way also leads censorship. So I strongly object deleting Al Jazeera article, but adding a Israeli side article is fine with me. Kasaalan (talk) 10:59, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

If you feel this sentence should stay, you must demonstrate the relevancy to the issue at hand which you have failed to do. As I wrote before, the article deals specifically with circumstances that arose several years after this event and is therefore entirely anachronistic and irrelevant here.

A fear of censorship is not reason enough to keep irrelevant information in the article.Wikieditorpro (talk) 08:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

You claim it has not irrelevant but I cannot find where you proved your case, it is revelant logically against claims of the IDF, some other editors also agreed, because we discussed that before, search the archive if you like, for adding info on IDF side go ahead, but removing some claims against IDF's claimed reasons for destruction, yet that is censorship for the most part.

You have some point about the dates, actually I haven't noticed it before, yet the situation gets for worse during the years, true, but that doesn't mean there were no tunnels for food back then, and they just popped out from nowhere.

In the past year, he had significantly increased his household income by investing in a black-market, "tunnel" economy, which relied on smuggled goods siphoned through underground passages between Egypt and Gaza.

Israel has always maintained that the tunnels were used to smuggle arms and explosives, but Shweikh says food, gasoline, and household treats – chocolate, in particular - formed the basis of his trade.

"I purchase goods from the chocolate company directly in Egypt; from such companies as Galaxy, from Ferrero or the Kinder Company. I buy, I transfer money and they send me the goods, by way of normal businessmen … tunnel businessmen."

Actually the article shows IDF's approach didn't change over the years, and the smuggling was in progress before too. Same city, same people, same army, only date changes, but you still have a point. The case is very similar but I will also try to find a better source for the past in the meantime. Also some additional words should be added to the paragraph to make the situation clear. Kasaalan (talk) 09:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I kindly suggest you look up the meaning of censorship in the dictionary as you clearly do not understand its meaning. You have twice accused me of censorship for trying to remove irrelevant information.

"You have some point about the dates, actually I haven't noticed it before, yet the situation gets for worse during the years, true, but that doesn't mean there were no tunnels for food back then, and they just popped out from nowhere.""

It also doesn't mean that the flying spaghetti monster isn't god. If you want to add information, it's your responsibility to source it. It isn't anyone's responsibility to find a counter-source to remove material without a proper source. That's not how Wikipedia works (I'll exercise restraint and avoid any references to how Islamipedia might work.)

Instead of cherry-picking a couple of sentences and then distorting them to support your claims, read the article objectively:

"Following Hamas' seizure of power in the Strip in June 2007, Israeli restrictions on the flow of people and goods in and out of Gaza developed into a siege.

The stranglehold on Gaza, used to pressure Hamas to halt home-made missile attacks against Israel, has starved many civilians of basic food items and energy supplies.

To cope with the siege, a number of Palestinians began to dig tunnels between Gaza and Egypt through which dozens of household items, foodstuffs and gasoline were smuggled.

This underground, tunnel economy thrived for more than a year, and offered many Palestinian entrepreneurs an alternative investment channel."

Of course there were tunnels before, but it wasn't economically viable to use them to transfer basic goods, which could be transferred for a fraction of the price above ground. Claiming that they were used for goods is illogical, and a novelty which the Al-Jaeera article not only doesn't support, but when read objectively, contradicts.

Let me again remind you, that this article deals with the circumstances surrounding events in 2003. Wikieditorpro (talk) 08:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Found a source for 2003 Underground War Gaza by Sacco for New York Times 23 MB PDF. I will try adding more sources. Kasaalan (talk) 05:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie

Alright since we got a consensus for creating Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie Yet none of you bothered to even vote for deletion article, and 1 admin apparently voted for merging it back into main page, and some POV users trying to delete it either get ready to a huge merge, or do something about it. Kasaalan (talk) 09:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Created new title, containing documentaries, cartoons, and political reactions. Kasaalan (talk) 09:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Some Israeli biased users trying to getting the whole Public Reactions to Rachel Corrie Page deleted. I will try to bring it back. Kasaalan (talk) 17:47, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Since we created the article on consensus, can you state your opinions on User_talk:MBisanz#Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion.2FArtistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_Corrie page. Kasaalan (talk) 19:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

K, Why don't you link to the DRV page here when you get it set up? IronDuke 19:33, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

What you think of the merge into main page, can you possibly explain here. Kasaalan (talk) 20:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Well I set up a deletion review page before yet not much editors voted. Before opening a second title I will wait our dedicated editors back on discussion page. They insisting on merging into main page, I simply tried to explain, we created the sub page on consensus of different parties in main page, and we have a length issue here, but admin not verdict likewise. They expect us to merge the content into main page, which will bring lots of long discussions here and distract us a lot. Kasaalan (talk) 19:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

For reading previous discussion's on deletion reviews you may follow the links. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Artistic_Tributes_to_Rachel_CorrieWikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_April_16 Kasaalan (talk) 00:28, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Current case is the page reverted back into Public reactions to death of Rachel Corrie. All main page editors invited in adding content, and neutralizing the article if it contains any POV approach. Yet it may get another deletion review. So if any deletion review it gets, try to decide if you want a merge into main article, or keeping it as a sub article. Kasaalan (talk) 16:24, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Following the numerous discussions, I've decided to undo the forced merger (it's been a month but who cares) and relist the article at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Public reactions to death of Rachel Corrie. A second DRV (for an article that wasn't deleted) is just nonsensical so people can call it whatever they want. Kasaalan can continue there but I would ask he drop the "Israeli biased users" remarks. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:44, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

That remark wasn't for you, but some users that troll the page because of my other edits in some related pages, and work hard on the case. So try not to get offended, since I don't know about your edits.

Also I call devoted page editor's opinions on the matter primarily. Kasaalan (talk) 00:33, 4 May 2009 (UTC)