User talk:Rosencomet

Archived talk

Hi Rosencomet, and welcome back. I archived your page for you since it was getting quite cluttered. If that's not what you want, let me know, or if you want something from the archive restored to this page, contact me. For more information bout archiving talk pages, see the link above your talk archive. —Viriditas | Talk 08:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

December 2007

With regard to your comments on Starwood: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Please stop your personal attacks on me. It is against wikipedia policy to continue to attack me as you do. This is a warning. Mattisse 12:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Mattisse

Rosencomet, I have asked Mattisse to ignore you, and I expect you to do the same to him. Please do not engage Mattisse in any way, because if you do, I will guarantee that once again you will find yourself blocked. Please listen to me on this. After having an extensive discussion with Mattisse, I realize that Mattisse is only interested in trying to block you and will continue to attempt to bait you at every level. Do not fall for it. Pretend that Mattisse does not exist no matter what Mattisse says or does. This will only make Mattisse look bad, and you will be able to file a harassment report. —Viriditas | Talk 14:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Whpq clarification

I hope you don't mind my posting this. If you wish me to not post on your talk page, just say so and I will certainly respect your wishes. I saw your post to User:Viriditas. And I'm watching his talk page because I've been in conversation with him about something else entirely, not because of you.

Although Whpq (talk · contribs) is not an admin, uncontroversial closings of AfDs (such as the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matthew Abelson one) can be made by anyone. Because I withdrew my nomination of the article for deletion, this is considered uncontroversial and the result is to keep the article. When articles are kept after an AfD, it is normal to put a notice on the talk page of the article saying that it had previously gone through an AfD with a link to the discussion so later editors can see the information and arguments made in the AfD.[1] There is nothing sinister or unusual about this action. See point 7 on this Deletion Process page link to confirm this.

As to User:Whpq being a sockpuppet, I personally think this is very unlikely. The account appears to have a steady, active, and consistent editing history since early 2006. Look here. I hope this information helps you understand this particular situation. Cheers, Pigman☿ 21:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:COI guidelines

Again, I apologize in advance if I'm imposing by posting this but a recent comment of yours indicated to me you still do not have a firm grasp of why I (and others) say you are violating Wikipedia conflict of interest guidelines. At the risk of boring you with material you may already have read, I'd like to post a relevant section here for your consideration.

Self-promotion

Conflict of interest often presents itself in the form of self-promotion, including advertising links, personal website links, personal or semi-personal photos, or other material that appears to promote the private or commercial interests of the editor, or their associates.

Examples of these types of material include:

1. Links that appear to promote products by pointing to obscure or not particularly relevant commercial sites (commercial links).
2. Links that appear to promote otherwise obscure individuals by pointing to their personal pages.
3. Biographical material that does not significantly add to the clarity or quality of the article.

Autobiography

Further information: Wikipedia:Autobiography

It is not recommended to write an article about yourself. If you are notable, someone else will notice you and write the article. In some cases, Wikipedia users write articles about themselves when the more appropriate action would be to create a user page. In these cases, the article is normally moved into the user namespace rather than deleted. If you believe you may be notable enough, make your case on the appropriate talk pages, and seek consensus first, both with the notability and any proposed autobiography.(all bold emphasis mine)

There is more that is applicable to your situation but these are definitely central to the issue. Financial interests are not the sole criteria for COI by any means. If your work advances the profile of an organization you are a part of, that is COI. If you write articles about your friends when no verifiable sources exists, that is COI. And when such writing contains almost nothing but your own knowledge with little in the way of supporting and verifiable sources, that is original research. I don't know why I keep posting this sort of info on your talk page. It seems I've done this several times over the last 16 months. I think I have an ideal that if the information offered and understood, of course you will do the right thing, will address the issues and alter your behaviour. Pigman☿ 23:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Paul is a bit off in one of these areas: Even when there are third-party sources, it is a violation of the COI policy to write about anyone you hire for an event, per Wikipedia:COI#Examples:

"Producing promotional articles for Wikipedia on behalf of clients is strictly prohibited."

If you hire them for your events, you cannot write articles about them on WP. It's a conflict of interest. And it is certainly COI for you to add mentions of yourself and the products you sell (tapes)[2] to these articles. (Note - As is stated on rosencomet.com, re hiring speakers and performers, whose tapes you then sell: "[Jeff Rosenbaum] is both the primary event organizer and product manufacturer for ACE."[3] and "For speaker and workshop availablility and contact information, please contact Jeff Rosenbaum"[4] and "A.C.E. Office MailTo: for general information, sales, and festival-related details: Jeff Rosenbaum[5]) The only reason this has gone unnoticed for this long is you were working in an obscure area of WP. Just because it hadn't been noticed until recently doesn't mean that what you did was ok. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, you are distorting the meaning of the guidelines you are quoting all out of proportion, and it seems that some of the arbitrators who have been involved in these issues agree with me.

1. I will say now, and again, and as many times as it takes: All the work I do, and that anyone else does for ACE, is on a voluntary basis, and we profit not a penny by it. I know it is YOUR opinion that this makes no difference, but that is just your opinion. If someone does volunteer work for Muscular Dystrophy or Habitat for Humanity, that does not exclude them from creating or editing an article about those organizations. I do NOT accept the broad interpretation that if any work you do as a volunteer for an organization helps that organization, you are FORBIDDEN to edit that article in any way. I do not consider a link to the website of an organization's program for an event with classes placed solely as a CITATION to support a fact, such as whether the subject of that article actually did perform or lecture at that event, to be improper, even if somewhere ELSE in that website a catalog exists (as many, many organization's websites have). I particularly find it hard to accept that interpretation from one of a group of three editors who act as one posting requirements for citations next to these facts. However, how about if I delete the citation needed tag with a "see talk page" note, and place the external link on the talk page? All I want is for the facts to stop being challenged, because I fear the next step will be to delete the facts, then delete the whole article as "too thin" or "lacking support for notability". I don't consider the ACE website to be commercial, because they pay no employees and all funds generated go back into programming. They provide a public service.

2. The Jeff Rosenbaum article was NOT written by me (nor Starwood Festival, nor Association for Consciousness Exploration for that matter). I have added a bit of information to it, mostly when someone required a citation to support information in it. I have also added references occasionally to make it a better article, more supported, and more accurate. I do not believe this is forbidden; as in, not that there is some guideline saying that it is not best practice, or "not recommended", or "one should avoid it", but FORBIDDEN. I would appreciate it if neither of you would treat guidelines and recommendations as laws. I have seen many, many cases of biographical articles where the subject or someone associated with them has provided information, or objected to information included in the article. (And I'm not impressed with "Other stuff exists"; precedent has to count for something, or all guidelines and rules will be applied unevenly and unjustly.) As for the other articles, I consider Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism to be the posterboy for COI, POV, etc, etc,... but I ignore these issues because I think that in general you two have been contributing to the article being better, even if it does advance the interests of organizations and a movement you are totally involved with from it's very formation. (It's also the posterboy for being WP:OWNy, as Kathryn would say.)

3. I also don't agree that the moment an organization might hire a band, for instance, that means that no one who donates his time to that organization is allowed to either create or edit an article about that band. First, these are not regular employees of the organization, but either self-employed individuals or ones working for/with agencies or their own organizations, engaged on individual instances, and in many cases they are not paid at all. It's like saying that if I ever had UPS deliver a package for me, Domino's sell me a pizza, hired Roto-Rooter, or have phone service from AT&T, I am forbidden to write or edit an article about them. Worse, it's like saying that if I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity, and THEY paid UPS, Domino's, Roto-Rooter or AT&T for a service, I can't edit those articles. Lets say I OWNED a store, totally commercial, and PAID AT&T for phone service, or UPS, or rented a U-Haul Van! Or if you worked with any of the Woodstock concerts, or Comic Relief, or Band Aid, or the Grammys, or Lillith Faire, or Lalapaloosa, well, there's a couple hundred people you can never edit an article about. The same goes for all the personnel that go into making a movie, if you were one of them. It is absurd on the face of it. I don't "hire them for my event", ACE chooses them by committee and ACE hires them. I don't HAVE events.

4. ACE has a lot of different functions, and different people have taken on different ones. There are several directors. One person is the primary financial director, another handles virtually all research, another handles the website, another the graphic arts and mailings, another all recording both audio and video, another all data-base related work (like the mailing list), and so on and so forth. I am not in charge of any of the above. When it comes down to it, my main deal is handling communications - the phones, the e-mail, the travel and other arrangements for events, the information inquiries and shunting them where they need to go: if you have questions about event details, product content, how to apply to perform or speak, how to contact someone in the group, ask me and I'll either answer them or get you in contact with someone who does. That's what all the stuff you talked about above means; I handle inquiries and communication with the public. I also USED to assemble our tapes and CDs, but frankly we just let the CD house do that nowadays (and we haven't produced tapes in many years); I should really tell the webmaster to change that. I don't manufacture the discs or boxes, don't record the original, don't duplicate them, don't assemble them...; I used to do it all back in the eighties. Now, however, I still often write jacket notes and sit in on the making of the inserts; but I don't know Photoshop or In Access or whatever the ACE graphics guys use. I also help edit by reviewing raw footage and making notes. But it's all a group effort, and all the money (when there is some, which is rare) goes back into programming. Except for the CD House, no one makes a penny. As far as sales, I'm the guy who takes the phone orders. I don't fill them, and I don't get anything out of it. I don't handle the on-line or catalog orders, just the phone ones, and they are rare indeed. Almost all sales nowadays are through ebay or paypal, and I never even see them. And truth to tell, they're hardly worth the work; we do it mostly so more people get the benefit of music and lectures by people we happen to think are cool. That's the Goddess-honest truth.

I am not paid to, or hired to, edit Wikipedia. I did it all by myself, the moment I understood that you can, and I did it because I was aware of a lot of people and things that I thought should have articles about them, and qualified for them, and I saw a lot of articles I thought I could contribute to. I did not do it to promote myself or anyone else, and a good deal of the articles I have written are about authors and artists who have never been to any event I have been associated with or even people I've met. I've been cranking out articles about occult authors for months based solely on information I researched, like Nicholas R. Mann, Al G. Manning, Vivianne Crowley, Ed Fitch, Prem Das, Laura Huxley, Sally Morningstar, Gabrielle Roth, Dorothy Morrison, Luisah Teish, etc, etc. I've done it almost entirely with only friendly and/or civil interaction with other editors, until you and your group showed up again. I've edited or continued to protect the articles of people I admire who are dead, like Robert Anton Wilson, Timothy Leary, and Baba Raul Canizares. I don't consider that to be self-promotion. I get nothing out of it.

You two and your friend have NEVER "assumed good faith" with me, and continue to watch everything I do and try to provoke me. I know there are some who say I shouldn't stand up for myself and shouldn't react, but there it is. I know you have the experience and the ability to bury me under mis-applied guidelines you can pretend are rules carved in stone, and I know you can keep poking at me until I respond with frustration, gather the responses and call them "hostile" or "agressive", even on my own talk page. Like when you say I'm attacking you for saying you're stalking me, when you maintain a User:Pigman/Starwood-Rosencomet Watchlist, and comment minutes later when I edit.

I think my work falls into normal parameters of other editors working here (at least now that I have become somewhat used to Wikipedia; I'll readily admit that when I started out, I made a lot of mistakes). I think it has value, and involves a unique set of subjects that might otherwise not be addressed, or not for a long time. I don't think my work has been commercial or promotional, no matter how much you twist your definitions. I wish to continue working with REASONABLE editors who want to guide and improve my work, but I really doubt that you want to help me, having seen your discussions about me to others over the last week, and knowing our history. I would rather see a truly objective administrator with a sense of proportion work with me, and let me discuss the propriety of anything I do that he/she thinks is controversial, and have you guys leave me alone; because I believe you are prejudiced against me and no fair judge of my editing. I don't know what your real issues are with me, but I do believe you have some, and it makes you pursue me obsessively and treat me unfairly.Rosencomet (talk) 05:34, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

MfD Result Notice

Hi,

The MfD discussion on your user subpage has closed as keep. Best wishes, Xoloz (talk) 15:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Neither Agressive nor a Violation of the Arbitration

Here's a snapshot of the work I've done since the arbitration. I can expand this, but I am very sick and must go home now. You can see that hardly any have edits since the arbitration, and the few there are not controversial ones, and there is neither agressive aditing nor edit warring. Out of 39 articles picked alphabetically from my userpage, ten had edits by mesince the arbitration, mostly non-controversial (fix link, new headings, an additional cD, etc). Only one revert; from an unamed editor with only complaints on his userpage.

• Matthew Abelson – Created Aug. 2006 - No changes by me until nomination for deletion, then only to swap a citation for a better one – Zero additions of Starwood mentions or links
• Amampondo – Created Aug. 2006 - no changes since arbitration
• Ted Andrews – created article in October 2007, added much info & bibliography – Zero mention or link to Starwood, etc
• ArcheDream – Created Sept. 2006 - no changes since arbitration
• Armor & Sturtevant – Created Sept. 2006 - No changes since arbitration
• Badi Assad – Created article March 2007, no changes since arbitration, zero mention of Starwood, etc
• Pamela J. Ball – Created article in October 2007 – zero mention of Starwood, etc
• John Bassette – Created article in Dec. 2006 – only changes since arbitration fix links & typo
• Steve Blamires – Created article Aug. 2006 – only changes since arbitration addition of upcoming book & 2 articles – Pigman deletes book and mention of WinterStar workshop from BEFORE arbitration as undue weight – I do NOT revert
• Gavin Bone – Created article Sept. 2006 – only change since arbitration grammar correction and trimming of repetitious language in November 2007 – Pigman deletes mention of Starwood from BEFORE arbitration in Feb. 2007 – I do NOT revert
• Brushwood Folklore Center – Created article in March 2007 – no changes since arbitration
• Baba Raul Canizares – Created article in Aug 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• Miriam Chamani – Created article in Aug. 2006 – only change since arbitration fix of a link unrelated to Starwood etc
• Dennis Chernin – Created article Aug. 2006 – no changes since arbitration – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Chas S. Clifton – Created article Oct. 2007 – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• D. J. Conway – Created article Oct 2007 – Zero Mention of Starwood, etc
• Ian Corrigan – Created article Aug. 2006 – no changes since arbitration except adding one mention of a non-ACE CD Corrigan contributed to under “Music
• Vivianne Crowley – Created article Oct 2007 – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Phyllis Curott – Created article August 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• Prem Das – Created article Aug 2006 – no changes since arbitration, Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Jim Donovan – Created article Sept 2006 – no changes since arbitration except condensing some repetitious text and placing DVD as subset of Discography
• Dr. Strange (1978 film) – created article Feb. 2007 – no changes since arbitration – Zero mention of Starwood, etc
• Nevill Drury – Created article Oct. 2007 – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Sally Eaton – Created article August 2006 – fixed a Wikilink to ACE from a tape produced by them, fixed a link to Paramount Record from another album – no other changes since arbitration
• Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison – recreated article Dec. 2006 per request on Project Neo-Paganism page – added a couple Wikilinks and a book reference – no other changes since arbitration
• [[Philip H. Farber] ] – created article Aug. 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• LaSara Firefox – created article Oct 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• Ed Fitch – Created article Nov. 2007 – zero mention of Starwood etc
• Laurence Galian – Created article Aug. 2006 – no changes since arbitration except deletion of sentence “This article appears to be partially a vanity article’ from body of article, with suggestion to express opinions on the talk page
• Victoria Ganger – added a couple non-ACE-related facts, improved headings. Pigman deletes overlinking, deletes some data as “OR”, then nominates for deletion. I delete some more overlinkage, and Wikilink a book author already there to her article. Pigman deletes book as “inadequate”. Kathryn deletes now-defunct “footnotes” section. I add a CD to discography. I Wikilink 2 city names and a college name. I revert nothing.
• Michael T. Gilbert – I create article August 2006 – no changes since arbitration – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Jesse Wolf Hardin – I create article August 2006 – Aug. 2007 added new headings, reorganized data, and reverted unexplained deletion of large sections – deleted “like resume’” tag after re-write – no added Starwood-related text since arbitration
• George R. Harker – created article Oct 2006 – added a book Nov. 2007 to address notability tag – deleted tag and discussed on talk page – no addition of ACE-related info since arbitration
• Ellen Evert Hopman – Created article Aug. 2006 (recreated after deletion by 999 Sept. 2006) – no changes since arbitration – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Laura Huxley – Created article Jan. 2007 – No edits since arbitration - Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Anodea Judith – created article Aug. 2006 – No edits since arbitration - Zero Mention of Starwood etc
• Amber K – Created article Oct 2007 – does contain mention of and Wikilink to Starwood article. This did involve a revert of an unnamed editor’s deletion, after visiting his talk page and finding nothing but complaints.
• Richard Kaczynski – Created Sept. 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• Sirona Knight – Created Nov. 2007 – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Lehto and Wright - Created June 2007 - only mention of Starwood in Performance Venues section, only wikilink, no controversial edits since
• List of Marvel Comics mutants - created May 2007 - Zero Starwood etc mention
• [[List of Neo-Pagan festivals and events - created March 2007 - only wikilink for Starwood Festival and Winterstar Symposium - Pigman deletes all names without their own articles, I discuss but do NOT revert, putting all deleted names on talk page for future editors to write articles and provide some web links for research.
• Nicholas R. Mann - created Nov. 2007 - zero Starwood etc mention
• Al G. Manning - created Nov. 2007 - Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Louis Martinie' - created Aug. 2006 - various links, citations and wikilinks added, not about Starwood etc
• Patricia Monaghan - created Aug 2006 - no edits since arbitration except mention of Maybe Logic Academy (not Starwood etc. related)

Please don't characterize me as someone who has "learned nothing", or who has been displaying the same behavior since the arbitration. It just isn't true. I'll expand this list to include EVERY article I've edited since then if necessary. By far the majority of my edits were either to articles with no Starwood etc reference, or the edits I did had nothing to do with Starwood etc, and in that case it was usually to respond to a request for a citation or something.Rosencomet (talk) 19:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Llewellyn Worldwide

Have you ever had any business relationship (non-profit, for-profit or mutual exchange) with Llewellyn Worldwide? - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I have never had any relationship with Llewellyn Publications or Llewellyn Worldwide. Back in the eighties, ACE was given permission to produce some out-of-print tapes of theirs when they went out of the business of producing tapes. They were produced under the ACE/Llewellyn Collection label. I never got anything out of it, nor did anyone else associated with ACE. As I've said many times before, everyone who does work for ACE does so on a volunteer basis, and no one profits from it. (By the way, ACE no longer produces tapes; they haven't for many years. Does anyone? Whatever is in their catalog is old stock from at least ten years ago.)

Please stop saying things like "One of the problems with all these artist articles he's been creating is he uses them as a place to insert mentions of himself, his work, the tapes he sells, and his events. By working to raise the profile of the artists he hires, he is also working to raise the profile of his festival and, I think it's reasonable to assume, drive more business his way." I have no events. I sell no tapes. I hire no artists. I do not have a festival. No business is coming my way. I make my money in a totally unrelated way, and I make no money from anything I do for or with ACE. I do not "hire acts" for ACE events; ACE hires them based on committee vote.

As far as writing articles based on "bio blerbs", I stopped doing that long ago because they were not suitable copy for Wikipedia articles, and since I have searched the internet for better sources. In fact, the vast majority of articles I have written since the arbitration have not been ACE or Starwood related. Who's profile am I trying to raise? And I don't accept that the article of any artists who has ever appeared at an ACE event is now a "Starwood-related article". One fact in the entire biography of an individual doesn't mean non-controversial information like additional book titles, albums, ISBN numbers, etc can't be added by me without violating some rule. I happen to be a member of the Neo-Pagan community, and I want to write articles about notable members like authors and major organizations, organizers and related topics. I also write about sixties icons, entheogenics authors, comic books, cartoons, and musicians I like.

Please stop looking at "16 months of activity" when you judge, or discuss, what I've done since the arbitration. If you compare my editing before and after the arbitration was over, you'll see a distinct difference. Also, don't act like material that was up before the arbitration was over is material I've added since that time. Lumping it all in as if I haven't responded to the arbitration is simply unfair.Rosencomet (talk) 20:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, all of this info about selling the tapes and CDs (and the rosencomet thongs, etc.) is contradicted by the info on rosencomet.com. It looks to me like you also sell tapes/CDs in partnership with Llewellyn Worldwide; therefore, it appears to me like you also have a conflict of interest in writing about Llwellyn authors. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of WinterStar Symposium

I have nominated WinterStar Symposium, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WinterStar Symposium. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 02:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Jeff Rosenbaum

An article that you have been involved in editing, Jeff Rosenbaum, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeff Rosenbaum (2nd nomination). Thank you. Pigman☿ 06:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Warning: Attempted Vote-Stacking on AfDs and Content Disputes

WARNING - You are engaging in WP:CANVASSing, specifically of the Wikipedia:CANVASS#Campaigning and Wikipedia:CANVASS#Votestacking sort, as you are only posting to people that have supported his position in past AfDs or content disputes: User:Viriditas, User:Septagram, User:Modemac, User:Dave Null. Rosencomet, if you continue after this warning, what you are doing is a blockable offense, especially as you have done it multiple times before. This is your only warning. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, canvassing off-wiki for new users to come and "vote" is against policy as well. Stop doing it. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)