Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hwando (fortress)

Hwando (fortress)

Hwando (fortress) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This article has been created by User:Cydevil38 as a POV fork of an identical article "Wandu Mountain City" to circumvent the romanization dispute of 丸都 (Pinyin:Wandu, Korean:Hwando) in the article Goguryeo, the discussion about his editing in Wandu Mountain City, and the discussion about Romanization of Chinese characters. This POV fork should be deleted.--Jiejunkong 04:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Cydevil38's manipulation of Wandu Mountain City and preparation of the POV fork are described in Talk:Wandu_Mountain_City#Unethical_Behavior, which is verifiable by looking at the article's editing history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiejunkong (talk • contribs) 21:06, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Cydevil38 also bypassed the redirection link "Hwando fortress" and used a strange title with unnecessary disambiguation suffix.--Jiejunkong 07:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. From a quick perusal of the page histories, this looks like a content dispute. Dbromage [Talk] 07:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy close. This is a content dispute. The WQA became stuck about 2 hours ago and was referred to WP:RFC/HIST. In this light, nominating the article for deletion seems disruptive. Dbromage [Talk] 07:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • POV forks normally come from content disputes. I don't know that content disputes can be used to deny the judgement that something is a POV fork.--Jiejunkong 08:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
    • The point I'm making is the dispute was referred to an RFC for resolution. I hope you're not making a point by nominating the article for deletion before that process has even started. Dbromage [Talk] 08:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
      • The RFC is about the edit war in Wandu Mountain City. Currently there is talk going on in Talk:Wandu Mountain City. I promised the administrator User:Darkwind to fill in all technical evidence in Talk:Wandu Mountain City in a few days (User_talk:Darkwind#Talk:Wandu_Mountain_City), then I will put this into RFC if needed. But this doesn't mean the other side can create POV forks during these a few days. And it doesn't mean you can validate the POV forks without even looking at the reliable sources (you admitted you only had a quick perusal of the page histories. Maybe the technical contents are too hard for you. But then you may ask some experts to deal with the contents, rather than jump to conclusions by yourself).--Jiejunkong 08:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm not a historian so I can't comment on the specifics of the content. I. and probably most other Wikipedians, can't say for sure which article is "correct" (I use that term figuratively). That's what WP:RFC/HIST is for. Nominating a rival article for deletion so soon after the WQA stalled and was referred to RFC does look a tad like making a point. Dbromage [Talk] 09:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
        • You said it, rival article! FYI, an article created as a rival of another existing article is known as a POV fork in Wikipedia. Totally untolerated.Wiki Pokemon 04:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
          • Still, you know that it is non-trivial to rescan all the reliable sources to write down those historical records (while I also have to spend quite a lot of time to reply to the non-technical messages like what we wrote here). This takes time to finish and you cannot validate POV forks during the time.--Jiejunkong 09:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
            • Dbromage [Talk] seemed to not understand what a POV fork is. Wikipedia has strong policy against POV forking and the recommended action is deletion of the offending fork, no question ask. There may be content dispute, but the author of the fork, instead of resolving the dispute has created a POV fork to avoid discussioin, and to make a point in his POV fork. That is the reason Wikipedia strongly require all POV fork be deleted. All discussions and resolution by WP:RFC/HIST or whatever should continue at the original articles, not creating a POV fork.Wiki Pokemon 16:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep My dispute at Wandu Mountain City is that it's a UNESCO World Heritage Site, not the historic fortress itself. The fortress no longer exists and now lies in ruins, and recently the remains(possibly, but not certain whether this site was Hwando Seong) have been designated as a UNESCO World Heritage Site under the official name of "Wandu Mountain City"(Korean transliteration: Hwando Sanseong). In reliable English publications, however, the common romanization is "Hwando" with various suffixes. Also, regardless of romanization, the name of the fortress itself is also a matter of dispute. Encyclopedia Britannica Korean edition uses slightly different name(Hwando Seong) for the fortress with a different definition, that Hwando Seong is an alternate name for Guknae Seong. Hwando Seong that Encyclopedia Britannica Korean edition uses is the common Korean term for this historic fortress, and English transliteration of this name is also used in Cambridge History of Japan[1]. Another English publication, Korea: A Historical and Cultural Dictionary[2], uses the name "Hwando" without any suffixes and defines it as an alternative name for Guknae Seong(romanized as Kungnaesong in the book), same definition as that in Encyclopedia Britannica. Doosan Encyclopedia(the largest Korean encyclopedia), on the other hand, uses an entirely different name(Wina-am Seong), and explains that it was built as a defensive structure for Guknae Seong. According to this encyclopeida, Hwando Seong and its variants are alternative names for Win-am Seong. So my point is that "Wandu Mountain City" is not necessarily an equivalent of "Hwando Seong" or "Wina-am Seong", and it is necessary to detach this historic entity from the fixed name and definition of the UNESCO World Heritage Site to make room for the controvesies over the name and definition of this historic entity. The article needs much improvement and revision, but not deletion. Cydevil38 12:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wandu Mountain City is originally created to be about the historic fortress as the main theme, no doubt about it. It as a UNESCO World Heritage Site is a side theme. Cydevil is intentionally twisting the above fact. The objective situation is clear that Cydevil is not creating a new article independent of Wandu Mountain City, but a POV fork.Wiki Pokemon 17:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletions. -- PC78 09:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to Wandu Mountain City as POV fork. If Wandu Mountain City itself has inappropriate POV content or is inappropriate named, there are more appropriate vehicles to address those rather than creating a POV fork. (As far as I am concerned, the article should be named simply Wandu or Hwando -- which one is more appropriate is debatable -- and all issues dealing with location, modern designation, and whether the ruins were the same as the historical city of Wandu should be dealt with within the article.) --Nlu (talk) 16:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• This is no POV forking. For example, there are separate articles for Tsushima Island and Tsushima City. The geographical, cultural, and historical elements within a modern day city deserve separate scholarly treatments. (Wikimachine 04:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC))

• Delete. Obviously a POV fork to circumvent debate and consensus building of a dispute.Wiki Pokemon 16:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Hwando should be kept in order to describe the Fortified city that once existed at the site. UNESCO registers it as Wandu mountain city, due to the historic name that was given to it, when Wandu was first built. I suggest that Wandu Mountain City be redirected to this page.Odst 20:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

oops...Not this page, but the Hwando page. Odst 01:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep I've been called by Odst to look at this dispute - and it's my personal opinion that we need to keep this article b/c within the context of Goguryeo history, Hwando fortress deserves its own article - separate from the Wandu about the city in the Chinese context. Also, the guys who are advocating for the deletion of this article are the same POV guys (see Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Jiejunkong) who made ridiculous requests. (Wikimachine 00:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC))

• merge to Wandu Mountain City,the two present the same city or fortress,but Wandu is a more formal name.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 01:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe Hwando is a more formal name, since it was a Korean kingdom that created and named it.Odst 02:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• Redirect to Wandu Mountain City, per official naming by UNESCO.--Endroit 01:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

rather, Wandu mountain city should be redirected to Hwando, since UNESCO heritage is of less importance to the actual fortress itself.Odst 02:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

See UNESCO and World Heritage Site for their significance.--Endroit 02:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Whether Wandu or Hwando is the more appropriate name is not the issue here. The issue is whether the article in question here was properly created as a separate article or improperly created as a POV fork. If it is an improper POV fork, the factors that support having the Wandu article be named Hwando do not support the article's continued existence, only a move of the Wandu article to Hwando. --Nlu (talk) 07:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Cydevil38's edit history up to Aug. 24 [3] shows evidence of WP:POINT violation, by the creation of this POV fork. Hwando (fortress) (or Hwando Seong 丸都城 in Korean) is a POV fork of Wandu Mountain City (or Hwando San Seong 丸都山城 in Korean).--Endroit 16:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

There's more: To be fair, this POV fork may have been created in retaliation for the creation of another POV fork: Guonei City (國內城) is a POV fork of Guknae Seong (國內城), albeit UNESCO calls it Guonei City. The proper procedure which should have been followed is WP:RM (or WP:DR).--Endroit 16:21, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment I noticed that there was an editing war occurred at the Guonei City. Guonei City and Guknae Seong are the same thing, thus they should be merged. According to the wikirecord, Guknae Seong was created earlier, thus the POV fork discussion of that article can be discussed immediately after this POV fork discussion because they are quite similar in my opinion.--Jiejunkong 05:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Endroit's comments here further proves my point, that some editors may insist upon the "official name" and the "official definition" of this entity, hence limiting the scope of this article to contents already set by UNESCO. So I believe Wandu Mountain City should deal with the entity that has been designated as the UNESCO World Heritage Site, and the article nominated here should focus on the historic entity that no longer exists today. Cydevil38 18:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• I don't think anybody (except Wikimachine) buys your story that the 2 articles talk about 2 different things, Cydevil.--Endroit 18:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I do. That's what I advocate for as well. Another example is Fortress_Louisbourg and Louisbourg, Nova Scotia. (Wikimachine 04:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC))

Wiktionary translates 城 (pronounced "seong" in Korean) as "castle", "city"/"town", or "municipality", BUT NOT "fortress". Therefore, Hwando Seong (丸都城) becomes "Wandu/Hwando City", and not "Wandu/Hwando Fortress". Where's your source for the use of the word "fortress"? I believe your interpretation and usage of "fortress" (in English) amounts to original research.--Endroit 05:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't argue with me b/c I'm a Korean & I know my language. "seong" means any kind of walled fortification. (Wikimachine 15:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC))

If you search the web, you will see that Korean websites sometimes confound the words "fortress" with "city" when translating "Seong" (城, 성) into English. That's just the way it is. However when you say something like "a mountain fortress that served as the second capital of Goguryeo", it's obvious that the correct translation into English for any capital was supposed to be "city" and NOT "fortress". That's as ridiculous as saying "Seoul was the Han fortress (漢城, Han Seong) which served as Joseon Dynasty's capital", and start an article called Han fortress. UNESCO has called Wandu a "city" and I provided the source above. Please provide your source rather than do any original research.--Endroit 17:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

For example, Hanyang and Hanseong. They're both used to describe the capital city Seoul. However, Hanyang is the name for the city, Hanseong is the fortification that surrounds the city. (Wikimachine 18:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC))

I only recently figured out that there is a separate page called Hwando fortress. Maybe it would be appropriate to move Hwando to Hwando fortress, but I am against it being moved to Wandu Mountain City. Odst 01:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Hwando_(fortress) is the article created by Cydevil, it is the POV fork of Wandu Mountain City. Hwando_(fortress) must be either deleted or redirected to Wandu Mountain City. Hwando and Hwando fortress are redirect pages, they will eventually be deleted, or redirected to Wandu Mountain City when Hwando_(fortress) is either deleted or redirected to Wandu Mountain City. That is the rule even if you are against it.Wiki Pokemon 01:56, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

This is no POV fork. A fortress within a city in the past is different from an article about a modern city. (Wikimachine 04:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC))

Two flaws in your remarks: (1) If you want to call a non-residential ruin as a modern city, then obviously we are not on the same page. (2) Hwando is not the so-called ancient name. At the time the Wandu Mountain City was Goguryeo's capital, people only wrote classical Chinese 丸都. People at that time didn't know nothing about romanization. Hwando is the modern Korean romanization of 丸都, while Wandu is the modern Chinese Pinyin romanization of 丸都.--Jiejunkong 05:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

This is pathetic. Odst is totally confused about POV forking rules. And all Wikimachine, Odst and Cydevil38 cannot even be consistent about what they are trying to prove. I guess its hard to coordinate to justify something when real, undeniable mistakes are made.Wiki Pokemon 05:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. How can there by two separate articles - Hwando fortress (redirected to mountain city) and Hwando (fortress)? I'm tired of you POVs. Hwando was a Korean city, it deserves a Korean title within its own context, no matter how it is named today. That's just like limiting Persia to the Iran article. You POVs started the Wandu Mountain City- all these POVish attempts are so laughable. This is exactly like their attempts to move Goguryeo to a Chinese title, etc. Also, I'm moving all titles to redirect to Hwando (fortress). I personally think that Hwando (city) is a better title. (Wikimachine 18:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC))