Talk:Springfield, Massachusetts/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Bus Terminal

Springfield's current bus terminal is a very unique building, does anyone think they could snap a picture of it? (preferably a daylight one)

I hope we can revive this bedrock of Massachusetts.

Hello, I'm not sure, exactly, if I'm doing this edit thing right, but are you talking about the Peter Pan bus station? I'm not sure what, exactly, you mean when you say that it is "unique". It seems rather average to me, perhaps maybe a little crowded, if anything.

If we could get a picture of Bright Nights for the article, that would probably be a bit better. When I read the current information about the event in the article, it didn't do too much to explain what it is like. Considering there can be a two hour long wait to get inside the event due to people flocking to Springfield while it is in operation, I think it would be relevant to have more information on it.

I also think there could be more information on current politcs (corruption etc.) and something about the night life/entertainment industry, the article would be more informative. I would try to do it myself, but I'm unfamiliar with anything Wiki and I don't think I could be an unbiased source. --TOLLMASTER

You, personally, can't be a source; that would be a violation of Wikipedia:No original research. You can add any relevant information for which you can provide a reputable and reliable published source per Wikipedia:Verifiability. For the current local scene, that probably means articles in newspapers or regional magazines. If the articles are also available on-line, that is even better. Now, go for it! -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 12:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

healthcare

any resources on the net on how the condition of springfield's heatlhcare is? compared with the rest of the state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.232.156.44 (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

Picture

The existing picture has text in the middle of it, as well as a concrete highway barrier obscuring the view of downtown. It would be nice to find or create a better one. -- Beland 02:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

• The picture is gone, so I am removing this tag. --Sbrools ^{(talk . contribs)} 02:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Map requests

• It would be nice to have a map showing neighborhoods and streets mentioned in the article. -- Beland 07:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
• It would also be nice to have map showing the original jurisdiction of the territory, and deannexations to other municipalities at various times. -- Beland 07:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll see if I can dredge something up from my closet. -Nclark —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.151.142.241 (talk) 01:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

Area Annexed By Chicopee?

I've found a few of the comments to be extremely strange, specifically:

In 1893, two Springfielders named Charles and J. Frank Duryea built the first ever gasoline powered commercial car in Springfield. The Duryea Motor Wagon was put on the streets of Springfield on September 20, 1893. This part of the city was later annexed by Chicopee, Massachusetts.

and

WWLP's studios are in nearby Chicopee a former section of Springfield.

Chicopee developed separately. To the best of my knowledge they've been separate for centuries, if they were even unified in someway in the first place. I am rather skeptical when it comes to this claim and would prefer to see it sourced. Furthermore, Channel 22 / WWLP's studio is located *north* of downtown Chicopee between 1-391, 1-90, and the Chicopee / Connecticut Rivers. Prior to this location it was in Agawam! Why does including a reference to Chicopee as a former section of Springfield even relevant when it comes to this station studios? The station, albeit a "Springfield" one, has never even had a studio in the city to the best of my knowledge. --80.219.74.157 19:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, but none of the major Boston TV stations (with the exception of WLVI-56) have studios in the Boston city limits. It's called advertising.  Ravenswing  23:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

My post had nothing to do with what your response addresses. I found the mention of Chicopee as a former part of Springfield within the discription of WWLP to be extraneous. It seems that we would agree given your comment on Boston television stations (WCVB is the one that comes to mind first). I was apparently mistaken about the history of Chicopee, although I am still rather surprised to have not known that the "cities" separated so late in their own individual development given that I was born on the border between the two.--80.219.74.121 (talk) 15:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster

Does Marriam-Webster not warrant a mention on this page?

When was Merriam-Webster founded?

In 1831, brothers George and Charles Merriam opened a printing and bookselling operation in Springfield, Massachusetts which they named G. & C. Merriam Co. The company, which was renamed Merriam-Webster, Incorporated, in 1982, has been in continuous operation since that time[1]--80.219.74.121 (talk) 15:24, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Springfield MA Flag.jpg

Image:Springfield MA Flag.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Climate?

Does anyone know the statistics reagarding Springfield's climate/weather patterns? That would be an interesting addition to the page. 24.2.244.245 21:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The Celsius figures for the average daily temperature ranges in summer and winter are wrong. How can the temperature range be negative? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.98.71 (talk) 01:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Springfield-ma-seal.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Chapman Valve

Under the industry section, shouldn't the Chapman Valve be added? It was a placed used to mill uranium back in the 50-80s I think. There was a whole big issue over this when the workers started coming down with cancers and about 150 lawsuits were filed (22 won the case). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.59.42 (talk) 22:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Private Schools

I updated the private schools section. Academy Hill was missing, the Catholic schools are merging, and Cathedral is the largest, not the most prominent, Catholic high school in the region. I have the feeling that Holyoke Catholic High School and those who know it would disagree with the previous statement.--Ami in CH (talk) 22:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Largest Springfield?

The article said Springfield, MA was the second-largest Springfield in the U.S. Recently, that was changed pending further data. I found these in Google: http://www.demographia.com/db-2000city50kr.htm , http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/00ccdb/cc00_tabC1.pdf , and of course List of United States cities by population it appears to be THE largest Springfield in the U.S. - my question: why did someone say it's the second largest? Stev0 06:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Some facts appear to be unclear about the city's relative size to the rest of new england cities, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester%2C_MA. Disagreement on what spot this city sits in as far as population size is according to this

Boston, Worcester, Providence, Springfield. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England#Urban_New_England. Worcester was behind Providence in 2000, but it's currently estimated to be larger. Quentinisgod (talk) 17:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The article was correct (and his question isn't about Springfield MA vs. New England cities). Springfield MA has been staying the same, while Springfield MO has been increasing in size. In the last decade, Springfield MO has become the "largest Springfield". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.25.101.107 (talk) 23:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Most dangerous city in MA

"Springfield is known to be the most dangerous city in all of Massachusetts. Its the 18th most dangerous city in America." Why did sum1 remove this? its 100% true....

Here a source, if i even need one: http://www.answers.com/topic/springfield-massachusetts

Answers.com is a Wikipedia mirror, and not verifiable in of itself. And yes, you do need a source. The standard on Wikipedia isn't whether a fact is true; it's whether it is verifiable. Please see WP:V if you want to know more. Ravenswing 00:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

omg.....ok if you dont believe me y dont u just find a source ur self, cuz im tellin u its true!

The onus is on the editor making an assertion to provide proper sources, not on others to do your research for you. I strongly suggest you look over WP:V. In any event, that this Morgan Quitno guy makes an assertion doesn't make it fact, and his methodology is seriously flawed. (And just as an FYI, since this is an encyclopedia, we use proper English and grammar here; "chatspeak" will turn a lot of folks off.) Ravenswing 06:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

i dunno wth ur talkin about but springfield is the most dangerous city in MA and you dont believe me so u deleted the sentence that i add sayin that and make me have to go and get source but then i get a source and it aint good enough for u, yet i cant find good source but you cant go look for a source for me!? it was even on a local commerial the other month about springfield being the msot dangerous city in MA

It almost seems that you're proud of that fact. Trust me, nothing scary about the small town of Springfield, MA - NYJAY

This city is corrupt; politicians and police are corrupt; gang violence and drugs are rampant. There is a story almost daily in the local news of some violent crime. It is no longer a nice place to live, visit or spend your money. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.99.255.3 (talk) 15:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Trust me, it is a very dangerous and violent place. I live near it, and the dents in the top of my car from bystanders dropping rocks from the two office buildings show it. I think it has had about half a dozen murders or so just through the beginning of this year. -Nclark —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.151.142.241 (talk) 01:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

In addition, it must be pointed out that this information, however flawed is now out of date. Morgan Quitno, still as wrong as they ever were, has busted Springfield down from 18 to outside the top 20. The issue is moot now.

The Springfield area has been regarded as one of the most dangerous areas in Massachuetts, but it is not the most dangerous area. rgoodermote 09:52, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I found a source which might be acceptable. According to data from a page on the FBI website, Springfield has (or at least had) the highest rate of violent crime per capita in the state: 2691 violent crimes per 151,670 citizens, for a rate of 1.77%. Boston was second at 1.31%. Nationwide, the figures are a little skewed because it includes very small communities. (For example, 17 crimes in 314-person Dewey Beach, NJ, resulted in a rate of about 5%.) For cities with populations over 100,000, the "worst" was St Louis, MO. Springfield, MA came in at #7. Keep in mind, math is only based upon the data in the category of "violent crime." The results may be different if another category (murder, rape, etc) was used instead. Furthermore, I believe these are 2005 figures. The URL for that FBI page is: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_08_ma.html

One of the problems with using that data is that for much of the last 10 years, Springfield was reporting it's UCR data incorrectly. IIRC, UCR treats multiple crimes at one occurrence as one crime (for example, and armed robbery suspect might be charged with aggravated assault for each victim at the robbery, carrying an illegal firearm, illegal detainment, etc but UCR would count that as one crime). Springfield was reporting those incidents using all applicable violations which inflated the crime numbers. Anechoic Man 15:12, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Dramatic improvement in crime: 2007-present

In the same crime rankings where Springfield ranked 18th in 2005, it ranked 51st in 2009 and 35th in 2010. Its crime rating is hovering around 140.00 -- nearly half of what it was. This has been reflected in the Wiki article and cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JWM83 (talk • contribs) 20:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Inaccurate rail information

JWM83 continues to push inaccurate statements about various rail proposals. First off, until a proposal is currently funded by all parties, there is a locked-in construction schedule, and there is a current source saying so, it cannot be described as a done deal. Certainly, broken links to four year old newspaper articles make, in today's economic and political climate, are singularly worthless for meeting WP:V. You've also twice now made cites to sources which didn't back up the assertion made; for instance, that Connecticut state transportation officials think that a New Haven-Springfield commuter rail line is a fine idea, and say so on their website, the project hasn't actually been approved or scheduled. The rail line's own article states that it's currently undergoing a two-year environmental impact study.  Ravenswing  01:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The info presented is currently accurate =

• • Ravenswing, I don't know how closely you've been following the issue but the "two year study" ended some time ago. The NHHSP (aka The Knowledge Corridor Line is scheduled to built from 2013-2016, barring any hold-ups.) Here are sopme recent developments. The Massachusetts section of the railroad has been entirely funded by the Federal Government, (i.e. $70, from Springfield to Brattleboro, plus $70 to restore Springfield's beautiful train station.) Construction on both of these projects is set to begin in late 2011, or at latest, early 2012. (It was pushed back once several weeks ago to accomodate, primarily, Connecticut's bid for the money, and also to accomodate its own bid for additional funds--which could increase speeds to "high speed levels," e.g. over 70mph. I can not find an inaccurate statement made about the project on Springfield's page, nor New Haven't page. Where the project stands now is that Conecticut has enough $$$ to double track its line all the way from New Haven to Newington. It's waiting on one last Federal disbursement from the Florida funds (rejected by Florida) to build the rest of the double-tracked line from Newington to Springfield. After that, building will commence. In other words, the paragraph about high speed rail reflects the truth as we know it currently; however, should anything fall apart, I suggest that it be amended quickly. Certainly, this is Connecticut and Western Mass's most important project since the highway construction in the 1960s.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.97.169 (talk) 08:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

June 1, 2011 Tornadoes

Why does the section on the tornadoes say that there were two that touched down in Springfield? To my knowledge (and according to the sources cited) only the F3 struck in Springfield, the other two F1's were observed in Wilbraham and N Brimfield. Any thoughts? 75.251.105.128 (talk) 23:44, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

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Demonym: "Springfielders"

Why does the demonym for people who live in Springfield, i.e. "Springfielders," keep getting removed from this page? Springfielders is an historical term as well as one that is used in common parlance. 76.119.66.131 (talk)

• Ttwelve years of living in Springfield didn't fill me with any sense that "Springfielders" was a term in common use. If it's a historical term, no doubt you can document it through multiple reliable sources. Ravenswing 18:54, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
• After twenty two years of living in Springfield, I haven't heard of this phrase either and I can't find any sources. But if the anonymous poster above has sources, I'd enjoy learning something new about myself. Mdechris (talk) 17:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

White population

Whites made up 51.8% of the cities population in 2010 the 36.7% was only for hispanic whites it even says so few sentences down in the same paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.64.104.4 (talk) 20:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Control board section

Isn't Albano, the former Mayor, under federal investigation, and aren't his misdeeds frequently cited as a cause of the fiscal meltdown? -- Beland 07:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

O, yes mr.beland guy, ITS ALL HIS FAULT BLAME HIM

Why is there no mention of the Control Board? Are we erasing that part of history? Springfield is the City of Firsts, including the first city to be taken over by the Commonwealth for poor fiscal health. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.157.56 (talk) 03:23, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Historical maps

I love maps, which doesn't mean wonderfully dated maps belong here. I read the History section, spotted nothing similar. If anyone's still out there, please consider this notice 'til early June, when I'll post this link with a brief sentence unless I hear why it's dull or redundant:

http://maps.bpl.org/explore/location/springfield-mass-7

The BPL houses the Leventhal world collection, now online, and it's grand. Sorry to be overcareful, but I'm very new with wiki, and unable to dive in. For all I know, this is located in a Spfld-related article elsewhere...

Thanks All Gwenelen (talk) 19:54, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

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No information on the genealogy of county governments!

Unfortunately, a large percentage of Wiki articles omit the genealogy of counties. County archives are important! Springfield resided in no county 1635-1643, in Middlesex County 1643-1662, Hampshire County 1662-1812, and finally Hampdon County beginning in 1812. 2602:304:CDA6:51B0:58CE:1A5B:AE5B:8A2B (talk) 06:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Springfield, Massachusetts/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This article contains at least one incorrect usage of "it's" as a possessive, which should be corrected.

Last edited at 21:04, 1 October 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 06:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Hampden Bank now Berkshire Bank

Hampden Bank, cited several times in the Springfield article, was bought out by Berkshire Bank on April 14, 2015. Berkshire Bank acquired Hampden Bank for $109M. The merger came after a dissident faction of Hampden Bank shareholders, led by Texas-based hedge fund, expressed dissatisfaction to the Hampden Bank management over lack of growth and profitability. 04:22, 11 February 2017 (UTC) <http://www.masslive.com/business-news/index.ssf/2015/04/what_you_need_to_know_about_hampden_bank.html>

History tweak

I consulted this article to find out when Springfield became a city. Naturally I looked in the History section, and in not finding it there I declared the effort a failure, and returned out into the cold of the Web to find it elsewhere.

It was only on returning to write this comment that, for good measure, I word-searched the page, and discovered you provide the fact. Only, it's embedded far down in the article, in the Government section. For the History section to identify all kinds of years only to omit 1852 is kinda egregious, don'tcha know. So add it.

As well, as I just commented in History of Springfield, Massachusetts, what was Springfield before it was a city? I presume a town, but you need to state that fact as well.

Apart from that, great article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimlue (talk • contribs) 20:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Just added the official date to the infobox, yes before Springfield was a city it was a town. Even with that separate history article, definitely more that could be fleshed out as well. It's a long, obscure, timeline overlapping many others in American history.--Simtropolitan (talk) 04:59, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

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WikiProject Greater Springfield

Hi all-
Because of the breadth of history, geography, culture, and other details which tie into Springfield, Holyoke, and Chicopee, I am currently proposing the creation of a Wikiproject under WikiProject Massachusetts, not unlike WikiProject Boston or WikiProject Lowell. Since this page receives far more views than Greater Springfield I figured I would leave this here. There are so many primary resources out there on this city's history, economy, culture, that I think it would be useful to have a single location to discuss using them for building and improving multiple related pages. If you're interested, please leave some support here.
--Simtropolitan (talk) 18:01, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

• Eh, why not? Ravenswing 19:10, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
  • @Ravenswing: No obligations by the way, just trying to build a community resource. If you're interested though, don't forget to add your name. --Simtropolitan (talk) 01:12, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

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Jews in Springfield (Consensus reached.)

See History of Jewish Immigrants in Springfield.--Tim Stamper (talk) 18:36, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

• I don't question the accuracy of the source, but in a city where a website estimates that only one resident in fifty is Jewish, a standalone section just isn't appropriate. The fact about the first Jewish congregation and synagogue's certainly appropriate in a section discussing religion in Springfield generally, and I'd welcome someone writing such a section, if balanced. Ravenswing 18:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Rome wasn't built in a day. Other Wikipedians will write more about the subject.--Tim Stamper (talk) 22:03, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, and if they choose to do a comprehensive treatment of the same, good for them. This isn't it, and still violates WP:UNDUE. Ravenswing 23:47, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

I try to achieve a compromise.--Tim Stamper (talk) 01:27, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

No, Tim, what you are doing is edit warring. Discuss here, don't make edits until a consensus is reached. John from Idegon (talk) 03:06, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

I would call that rewriting. But I understand your reasoning. I have to be more precise. One possible compromise, not an achieved compromise:
Points of interest (Section)

• Stearns Square – designed by the renowned artistic team of Stanford White and Augustus Saint-Gaudens in 1897, this small park is the center of Springfield's Club Quarter. It features ornate architectural and sculptural details from the original team's design; however, most of those were meant to accompany The Puritan, and thus moved to storage. Stearns Square hosts a large motorcycle gathering each Thursday evening, and is the site of a summer concert series.
• Temple Beth El in Dickinson Street –the largest Conservative synagogue in Western Massachusetts was founded in 1913. Jews make up 2.2% of Springfield's population. The first Jewish religious society was formally established in November 1887 in a single upper story room of the Patton Building on the corner of Main and Hampden streets.
  

Have a nice day!--Tim Stamper (talk) 03:48, 9 October 2017 (UTC) (Total edits: 130)

There are no other houses of worship discussed in this article, and you've given no compelling sources or reasons why this one should be an exception. John from Idegon (talk) 04:26, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Same list:

• St. John's Congregational Church – founded in 1844 as the Sanford Street "Free Church," St. John's Congregational Church is a predominately black church that played a pivotal role in the abolitionist movement. While living in Springfield, John Brown attended services here from 1846 to 1850, and as of 2011, the church still displays John Brown's Bible. It was at this church where John Brown met Frederick Douglass, Sojourner Truth, and other prominent abolitionists – and where he later founded the famous, militant League of Gileadites in response to the Fugitive Slave Act. As of 2011, St. John's remains one of the most prominent, predominately black congregations in the Northeastern United States.
• St. Michael's Cathedral – beside the Quadrangle, this elegant Catholic Church is the seat of the Diocese of Greater Springfield.
  

Why not the largest Conservative synagogue in Western Massachusetts?--Tim Stamper (talk) 05:07, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

St. John's has obvious historic significance beyond its religious use. St. Michael's is notable enough for its own article. John from Idegon (talk) 05:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Consensus reached. The views of tiny minorities should not be included at all.--Tim Stamper (talk) 09:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

• Your "compromise" might have been seen as less by way of agenda-pushing if you hadn't kept on trying to ram the same info through regardless. A section on notable houses of worship might not be out of place, but what your proposed entry that possibly has to do with the percentage of Jews in Springfield (for which, at this remove, I really would like a more authoritative source than The Daily Beast) or the identity of the city's first synagogue beyond a WP:COATRACK violation I've no idea. Ravenswing 10:22, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Consensus reached. One has to use the article's talk page. First edit: 2017-09-12--Tim Stamper (talk) 11:33, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

References

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Really not incorporated until 1852?

The length of time between settlement and incorporation is highly unusual. Was the date actually 1652? 2602:304:CDA6:51B0:A0EA:9FB5:D8B5:C42D (talk) 22:39, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Obviously late to the party, but "incorporation" in New England almost invariably means when a town legally becomes a city. Towns are "founded." Cities are "incorporated." Ravenswing 14:32, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Well there's a difference between town and city. Springfield was a town before then, just a big town. B-Movie Fan (talk) 20:49, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Bradley International Airport

I changed the wording to remove any illusion that Springfield has any relationship with the airport other than residents use it. Markvs88 (talk) 01:20, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Update: I've had several queries as to what my reason(s) were as to why "Connecticut's Bradley International Airport, is 12 miles (19 km) south of Metro Center Springfield." is correct wording and "is known as the Hartford-Springfield airport" is not accurate.

1) Interestingly, all I did was word the entry about the airport in the lede to match what's under Transportation | Air later in the article(!) Which makes me ask... why is it in the lede at all, and why is it okay further down in the article?

2) Bradley International Airport is wholly owned and operated by the Connecticut Airport Authority. Springfield and Massachusetts contribute zero dollars to the airport on a yearly basis. I am not opposed to wording that states the airport serves the city/region, but anything beyond that alludes to some sort of ownership.

3) All three of the three citations are from airlines, not the airport itself nor any official agency. While some of the airlines (AA, Delta, Jetblue) call the airport Hartford-Springfield... that's only for their ROUTE DESTINATIONS, and not the airport itself. Other airlines (Southwest, Spirit, United) call their airport routes Hartford, Bradley (or some variant lacking Springfield).

3b) SFY is the the International Air Transport Association (IATA) code for Springfield, which is used for flights into both Bradley International Airport (IATA: BDL) and Westover Metropolitan Airport (IATA: CEF) as a convenience.

3c) However, I cannot find *any* flights that originate FROM SFY -- it is impossible to fly out of Springfield (from either airport). That includes those airlines that list "Hartford-Springfield" as a destination and various aggregators (Kayak, Orbitz, Expedia, Cheapoair...).

4) Finally and most importantly, Bradley International Airport is not listed as "Hartford-Springfield" by the FAA, but exclusively as Bradley International Airport.

TL:DR version: Bradley International Airport is not known as "Hartford-Springfield" except by some airlines for incoming flights only. The airport is owned by Connecticut and has no tie to Springfield other than its residents prefer to drive to it instead of going to Boston.

Best, Markvs88 (talk) 03:12, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Marksvs88, the article is not yours alone to arbitrarily make a decision. It sounds like several people are questioning YOUR decision to summarily change wording on what Bradley Airport is known as. A couple of points:

1. As far as I am aware, no one is arguing over who funds or operate the airport. This is solely about what the airport is alternatively known as. Stop bringing up those points as they have ZERO impact on what the airport is alternatively known as.

2. As you yourself point point out, there are several entities that operate out of Bradley International Airport that acknowledge and use the term "Hartford/Springfield" when referring to the airport. One would think that they know better what the airport is alternatively known as.

3. The state DOT has referred to that name.

4. Other aviation centered groups beyond airlines themselves use that term.

5. Other government agencies such as the National Weather Service issues forecasts for BDL and refer to it as "Hartford/Springfield"

6. Windsor Locks, CT is part of the Springfield Metropolitan Area so technically, even though Connecticut pays and operates the airport, it's the residents of the Hartford Metropolitan area that use the airport and not vice versa.

Setting aside the funding/operating arguments, which only you keep bringing up, you have been given no less than 9 references showing that Bradley International Airport is alternatively known as the Hartford/Springfield airport. I think the should suffice. Unless you say otherwise to prevent an edit war, I will make that change. Best, Dbroer (talk) 01:02, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Hello Dbrooer,

Actually, the article is mine to edit the same as it is yours, and I started this talk section to prevent edit warring. I have spelled out my reasoning, both here and on my talk page with you.

It also would have been nice of you to wait for my actual reply, or to have answered any of the questions I posted, which I relist here. As you have taken the time to discuss, I will not revert this while we discuss.

1. Again: if this was about what the airport is alternatively known as, why is it in the LEDE? The LEDE is supposed to be about what the city has/is. Further, why not answer why the wording is just fine in the transportation section but not in the lede?

2. So three airlines say it and it must be gospel, never mind that three others do not *and* that you cannot fly OUT of Springfield... from *either* airport using SFY? Oh, and that the 'FAA does not use the term, nor does the airport itself?

3. The CT DOT reference is wholly spurious. In the 20 mentions of "Springfield" in the article, none of the are about the airport except (perhaps) #8, which is a copied in e-mail from a non-state source!

4. Well... not so fast there. The NYCAvaiation link is about POSTS that include the term, so that's out. Facebook is de-facto not a reliable source, so that's out too. I'll look at Airliners.Net when I have more time tomorrow.

5. You only provided NOAA, but I will look at that tomorrow too.

6. Windsor Locks, Connecticut is in Connecticut. The Springfield Metropolitan Area is nothing more than a governmental statistical entity.

Three of the six above aren't viable. The other three (airliner) ones are not valid for the reasons I listed above, or are at best secondary to the FAA. I'll get back to you on the other two when I have more time tomorrow. Thanks, Markvs88 (talk) 00:25, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Hello Marksv88...thanks for allowing some discussion. My thoughts to your points:

1. I have no opinion if mention of the airport should be in the LEDE outside of the fact that it appears to be in a paragraph regarding the Hartford-Springfield area and that the two cities share use of the airport.

2. It's OK that not everyone or every airline calls Bradley "Hartford-Springfield" but the fact that some do supports the fact that the name is used. I've never heard of "SFY" so I'm not surprised that you can't book a flight using that code. Other places have three-letter identifiers like NYC. It doesn't mean that I can book a flight to NYC but I can book a flight to LGA or JFK.

3. Understood, however, the document clearly shows how important the Hartford/Springfield area is to the airport.

4. I wasn't trying to provide encyclopedic references but rather show you that independent groups in and out of aviation use the term "Hartford/Springfield" when referring to Bradley.

5. The NWS link shows a page showing weather at cities across the country. The weather and forecast is for the main airport for the city. It lists "Hartford Spgfld" for Bradley.

6. I brought up the metro area because you were alluding to the fact that it was "Hartford's" airport and that Springfield residents just happen to prefer it over driving 90 miles to Boston. I do think it's worthy to note.

For good or bad the two cities are tied together and share the use of resources. Bradley is just one of those key resources. The fact is that it has been demonstrated that the airport as a destination is known as the Hartford/Springfield. The airport's Website itself does not exclude Springfield and specifically mentions the Hartford/Springfield area. It should go without saying that if the airport itself refers to the destination as "Hartford/Springfield" that the airport is the "Hartford/Springfield" airport. I really don't know how it can be seen otherwise, save for the fact that a couple of carriers just refer to it as "Hartford". Dbroer (talk) 17:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Hello Dbrooer, I'm happy to talk but after this I don't see how there can be much to discuss. I apologize for the long-windiness of this reply but I wanted to be thorough.

1. I don't know of any other city that has a reference to an airport that is not its own in the lede. Likewise, you've still not explained why the text I wrote in the lede isn't fine... while what's essentially the same text that was *not* written by me in the Transportation section is. Also... if you don't have an opinion, let's delete the second half of your sentence and have done with it ?

1b. The City of Springfield does NOT share use of the airport. Sharing implies some sort of ownership.The residents of Springfield can use the airport, the same way that some residents near Willimantic, Connecticut can fly out of Boston.

Does Springfield consult with the Connecticut Airport Authority on how the airport is run? Host any of the facilities? Contribute funds? (I know you're tired of that, but it IS germane here). No. By the "Hartford-Springfield" logic you are proposing, we would need to rename the MassMutual Center to the "MassConnMutual Center", since CT residents also use it. Hey, let's rename the company too -- after all, the guy who founded it was an ex-Connecticut Life employee.

1c. Even in the Bradley International Airport article it isn't called "Hartford-Springfield". I've even gone so far as to look back through to 2008 and I can't find any entry of it, though I admit I was just clicking 500 and searching for "Spring" on every 50th page or so.

2. I agree, it's okay that not everyone calls Bradley "Hartford-Springfield". Because that's not it's name. What's important is that a) the airport, b) the CAA, c) the FAA and d) the TSA call it Bradley.

2b. That you've never heard of it is a problem... without it, there is no Springfield airline destination. I do not understand your point about NYC. As I stated, SFY *is* the airline destination for the intangible Springfield airport (since it's used for flights into both Bradley and Westover). NYC is short for the city, and is not an airport IATA code.

I think that maybe part of the problem is that the abbreviation is SFY vs. NYC for New York City but not one of the airports. However, NYC is the exception. Miami uses MIA for both. Seattle uses SEA for both... and Boston uses BOS for both.

3. Come on now... that's a far cry from "The CT DOT calls it...". Surely you're not going to continue to contest this point?! Again, I'm not saying that there is no such a things as Hartford Springfield region, etc. However, it is clearly not the name of the airport. To say so is wp:or.

4. If the references aren't encyclopedic they cannot be used here. I'm not here to debate something over beers, I'm working on an encyclopedia entry. BTW, your google search displays no results with "Hartford-Springfield is another name for Bradley International Airport" or some variation.

5. I just took a look at the NOAA link. This is a "Selected Cities Summary". Nowhere does it state that it is a list of airports. [1] Further, if we go to page 3, there is no JFK or Laguardia, just New York City [2].

6. Again: I have never called it Hartford's airport. I call it Connecticut's airport, because that's what it is.

No, the two cities are just that -- two cities. They compete against one another for somethings, they work together on others. Sharing, again, implies ownership. If we share a flat, we both live there. Springfield does not live in Windsor Locks.

At this point: the destination is called "Hartford-Springfield" by three airlines for their own use. Three others do not. Again, the airport does not refer to itself as "Hartford-Springfield", and you have provided no links to prove to the contrary. The only cited points you have for this are the said three airlines... vs the airport, the CAA, the FAA and the TSA.

I'm sorry, but without better references I don't see how the article can state "is part of the Springfield Metropolitan Area and is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport". Particularly because Windsor Locks is NOT in Springfield's Metro Area. [3] It's in it's NECTA. That is not the same thing. But either way -- it's still nothing more than a federal statistical entity.

Thanks for reading, I again apologize for the length of this reply! Markvs88 (talk) 02:22, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

My responses:

1. If no other city lists the airport in the LEDE, let's delete all mention of it then to be consistent. No need then to be concerned about labels.

1b. Merriam-Webster defines sharing as "to partake of, use, experience, occupy, or enjoy with others or to have in common". Nowhere does it state that to share something means to have ownership. Residents of the region share use of the airport. It does not mean that any of them have to have ownership to share use of the airport. That's a silly notion and I don't know why you keep circling back to it.

1c. Are we trying to use a Wikipedia article as a reference? That article is about the airport itself, not the region that uses it.

2. We're not talking about the airport's name.

2b. Actually, NYC IS an IATA code for New York City. The point is that it's a code for a city but no one books under that code. They aren't flying into NYC they are flying into LGA or JFK. The fact that you don't understand the relevance to SFY is probably part of the problem. No one is booking flights to SFY when they want to come to Springfield. They are booking to BDL as per airlines and even the airport itself.

3. Again, we're not talking about the airport's name just the fact that it is used in the Hartford/Springfield region.

4. I agree that non-encyclopedic references should be used in the article but there's no reason that they can't be used to demonstrate in a discussion that when people outside of our circle refer to an airport in the Hartford/Springfield are that they typically refer to Bradley.

5. If you look at the NWS's Selected Cities tables, there are three columns. The first one contains the previous days high & low and measured precip. The second and third are forecasts for the current day and next day. It's easy to match up the high, low and precip up with what was measured at the airport and know where the data is for. The entry for "Hartford Spgfld" is for BDL as BDL is official measurement site for the area. The fact that they refer to it as Hartford/Springfield is a clear indicator that an independent government agency refers to it as Hartford/Springfield's airport.

6. I think you're being too literal when it comes to ownership. True, it is "Connecticut's" airport in the fact that it pays for and operates the airport but it's also true that people within the greater Hartford/Springfield area use the airport and so it would be correct to call it the Hartford/Springfield area's airport. Both metro areas make use of the airport.

7. MSA's and NECTA's are the same thing and Windsor Locks IS part of the Springfield Metro area according to the federal government - even if they call it an NECTA. Even the article you link to says they are the same thing. So that statement is supported. So, we can support the part of the sentence that states "is part of the Springfield Metropolitan Area". Stating that Windsor Locks is not the NECTA (aka MSA) would not be factual.

8. Bradley clearly sits in the middle of the Hartford/Springfield region. Its distance between the two cities is stated on numerous resources, including the airports reports as well as on the Hartford/Springfield Economic Partnership Website (aka the Knowledge Corridor). Even the airlines that you tout as not calling the destination "Hartford/Springfield" link the two. For example, if I go to Southwest Airlines and state that I want to fly to Springfield it will give me the option of Bradley. Therefore I see no reason why this portion of the sentence is not supported: "and is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport".

At this point, if we can't come to a consensus due to differences over the definition of what sharing means or agree that the airport is part of the Hartford/Springfield region I say delete the mention from the LEDE. However, I feel that I've demonstrated that multiple government agencies, including the airport itself refer to the Hartford/Springfield area and the fact that Bradley is the regional passenger airport. The airport touts it, the Knowledge Corridor touts it, the National Weather Service uses it and even the airlines that serve the airport use it. In fact, I have not seen a single point that states that Bradley is NOT the Hartford/Springfield area's airport. So if we can't agree, delete it from the LEDE and be done with it. Dbroer (talk) 15:58, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi Dbroer,

1. Then we have an accord! Excellent.

1b. Um... "Definition of shared - 1 : used, done, belonging to, or experienced by two or more individuals" [4]. *That* is why I keep coming back to it.

1c. Actually, that's the whole point, isn't it? This article is about the City of Springfield, it is not the Hartford–Springfield article. So as I keep saying... this airport has nothing to do with the City of Springfield, and it should definitely not be in the lede.

2. Um... that's what I've been talking about the whole time. The sentence I made I am fine with. It was your addition of "is part of the Springfield Metropolitan Area and is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport". Both of which are not accurate statements.

2b. Yes, as a destination, not as an airport. Like I've been saying, the airport is BDL - aka Bradley. The destination route that those three airlines use is SFY. Which is why "is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport" is not correct. It is mixing destinations (cities) with the airport name.

3. Again, we're talking about "is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport". Which it clearly is not.

4. There are lots of people that call a certain football team "The Cheatriots". It doesn't mean that's an acceptable alternative name for them, does it?

5. Again, we are talking about "is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport". This citation is not about airports.

6. Yes, both metro areas use the airport. One state owns it, and that state is not MA.

7. Again, no. The MSA is specifically 3 MA counties. NECTA is an alternative method to look at data. As stated, Windsor Locks is *not* in Springfield's MSA. And again, this article is about the City of Springfield, not the MSA.

8. Yeah, what a revelation: I ask to fly to a city with no airport of its own, and they find the closest one. Truly, that's amazing. Did you know that if you just walked up and asked to fly to "Springfield" the airport you are sent to is this one? Springfield–Branson National Airport

The NOAA link is just a list of cities and nothing more. That said, I agree to delete in the lede, I do not think you've proven anything regarding the name of the Airport as you have shown zero government sources using it. I am glad our discussion remained cordial, and I wish you well. See you around! Markvs88 (talk) 20:23, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

"I do not think you've proven anything regarding the name of the Airport as you have shown zero government sources using it." Likewise, you haven't proven anything either. You've falsely claimed that I haven't shown any government links showing that Bradley is the Hartford/Springfield airport along with some other false claims as well as thrown in some other comments but there's no need to go back and forth since we've come to an agreement that we can take any mention of the airport out of the LEDE. I wish our conversation was more cordial but if you feel it was, I wish you well. Peace. Dbroer (talk) 14:06, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

References