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Requesting WP:POINT and WP:HARASS blocks

Several editors continue to pester me about two weeklong blocks I issued over violation of WP:MEAT. Neither editor posted an unblock request, several uninvolved editors have supported my decision, and both of those blocks have long since expired. I had to block one of these people from gmail chat after he ignored my repeated explanations and referrals to WP:ADOPT. I have treated this matter quite conservatively until now, but this amounts to WP:HARASS and the "clarification" they request looks like a query into what methods two people who volunteer at the same workplace could use to manipulate WP:AFD and other voting discussions without getting blocked. I hope that decisive action will prevent a need to repeat the same remedy that the community imposed here. Durova^Charge! 18:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• User_talk:Durova#Need_Clairfication
• User_talk:Durova#Conflict_of_Interest_re:_User:William_M._Connolley
• User_talk:Durova/Archive_25#Zeeboid_block
• User_talk:Durova/Archive_25#COI_Opinion
• Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_6#William_M._Connolley_.28talk_.C2.B7_contribs_.C2.B7_logs_.C2.B7_block_user_.C2.B7_block_log.29

Durova^Charge! 18:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's probably also worth noting that one of the editors in question, User:Mnyakko has a link to an off-wiki attack page on his user page, and now states on his user talk page that he fears real-world stalking by his on-wiki opponents. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Said attack page being here. Reading the edit summaries (and, of course, the context) here also is enlightening. --Stephan Schulz 18:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, that link just went login-only. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps one reason they keep inquiring is because Durova never answered them. Just my thoughts. ~ UBeR 19:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Durova did, however, suggest that they get an outside opinion at AN which, IMO, would be a lot more satisfying. I wonder why they never did? --Iamunknown 19:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It can still be examined via the Google cache [1] links. --Kim D. Petersen 02:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Kim, thanks for the link. I was able to look over the "attack page" and I certainly did not see anything wrong with it. They are simply tracking and categorizing actions they felt were inappropriate based on Wikipedia policy. I am still learning about this stuff but it seems to me this is exactly the kinds of "diffs" administrators look for when they want to evaluate a claim that people are not complying with policy. I am not certain that ALL of the entries will be found to be inappropriate but I am certain some of them are. So, how is this a problem? RonCram 14:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

User:uBeR was doing a similar thing in his userspace. The pages were deleted, you can see the discussion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:UBeR/WMC. The consensus there was that it's fine to collect diffs in preparation for an RfC or arbitration (or other attempt at dispute resolution), but a page collecting a user's "misdeeds" with no specific end in mind is an attack page. That's what Race to the Right is doing, with pages on 8 separate users. If this stuff were on wikipedia, it would be speedy deleted just like uBeR's pages were. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Akhilleus, what makes you think they had no specific end in mind? It looked to me like they had several possible ends in mind. Was it just the fact it was extensive that it was a problem? If so, what does that mean? Is it okay to build a case but not okay to build a good case? If this is spelled out somewhere, please let me know. I don't understand the thinking here. RonCram 01:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I also am unclear on why they were blocked. In the quote below, the reason given was WP:POINT. I had never seen WP:POINT applied to a discussion board like COIN before. I thought that was reserved for articles. Above, Durova says she blocked them for WP:MEAT. I am very unclear on the concept of Meat Puppets. It appears to apply only if one of the people is not a real person, which is certainly not the case here. Tony and Zeeboid found key evidence that Durova cited when she ruled that Connelly should not ignore COI. I truly believe Durova is doing her best to remain fair, but I also think Durova is under a tremendous amount of pressure from the AGW crowd to punish those who oppose William Connelly's edits. Since I posted the complaint about Connelly on COIN, it makes it difficult for me to speak out in behalf of Tony and Zeeboid. But I do not wish to look like a coward. Isn't there some way we can bring this to a resolution without further blocks that will only open Wikipedia up to additional criticism about suppressing valid viewpoints? RonCram 00:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

RonCram, you should probably take a closer look at WP:SOCK#Meatpuppets, which begins "A related issue occurs when multiple individuals create brand new accounts specifically to participate in, or influence, a particular vote or area of discussion." --Akhilleus (talk) 01:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, so Could someone please (like the person who blocked us) point out how they believe how multiple individuals (we) created brand new accounts specifically to particibate in, or influence, the particular vote that Durova banned us for violating WP:SOCK for? Also, I can provide the gmail chat if you want to see it.--Zeeboid 01:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, let's see. You both work on the radio show Race to the Right, and both voted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Race to the Right. In fact, Zeeboid, your first edits were to a related discussion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ThePete (a page about you, apparently), and on the same day you edited Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Race to the Right--a pretty good indication that you began editing "to influence a particular vote or area of discussion," to wit, to promote (or document, if you prefer) your radio show. After that time, you and Mnyakko supported each other in controversial discussions, namely on Talk:Global warming controversy and related discussions.

Furthermore, you and Mnyakko are maintaining an attack page together on Race to the Right's wiki--the link is above. Obviously, that site didn't play a role in your previous block, but in my view it ought to play one in any future block you may receive. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Akhileus, I was looking at this. [2] But the citation you provide, while different, still does not apply. They did not create brand new accounts to vote on the issue of Connelly's COI AfD. I do not know anything about the attack page you mention, so I cannot comment on that. I am only saying that I did not understand exactly why they were blocked and I still don't. RonCram 01:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Define (a) what specifically qualifies a site as an "attack site" so we all can work from the same definition instead of demogoguery, and (b) what policy gives jurisdiction over Gmail chats, private websites, etc? I noticed she did not provide these "harassing" chats. Zeeboid, you should post them. I also noticed that the questions I asked to better understand the foundation of this retalitory request are still unanswered. Frankly, considering how vague everything is in Durova's complaint the questions will not be directly answered for the very reason that this whole process was started: because someone (durova) really did not like being asked to clarify her blocks. Arbitrary decisions are indefensible, thus questioning them results in retaliation. Truth is, she was begging for 'someone' to take action against me as more solid proof came into the COI discussion against the subject...knowing that there was more to come it was becoming too difficult to achieve the protection of fellow admin, so specious blocks were performed. Of course, the protected admin and clique applaud, but ask an objective editor to explain precisely what was infraction was made and I doubt one could. As a result, the questions build up and all the while she knows there were no solid answers to give. So, how do you stop the questions? First by inviting Zeeboid to open a request in AN...no doubt in my mind his doing so would be the justification she would use for claiming POINT violation ('using AN to prove a point, yadda, yadda). He didn't take her bait so she did it instead and for what reason? "open a thread at WP:AN where you can see whether administrative consensus agrees that I did a reasonable thing and I can see whether administrative consensus agrees that you deserve a new block for WP:POINT. That would satisfy both of our concerns in an impartial forum." First, this is not an impartial forum. Second, since we have not been given any clear and specific indication from Durova how she concluded a violation of POINT, her comment AND her actually opening a request in AN was clearly an action specifically purposed to "prove a point" rather than "stating" it. I'm not sure, but I think that might be important when considering a block for a guideline where a section is titled, "State your point; don't prove it experimentally", but, I'm not an admin so I'm obviously missing some nuance to explain why Durova is not close to violating POINT while providing the proof she claimed to require in a COIN is a violation of POINT. In fact, I would almost bet my mortgage that some juicy rationalization will fabricate some reason that hypocritical double-standard is a justifiable 'exception'. Makes objective wonder if other's assertions have more merit than initially thought. And, of course, when one side is making a valid point, a valid case, a valid justification...they are accused of 'wikilawyering'...which means, "You're right, I cannot refute what you have said, but I still have to find some way to denigrate you so people will not pay attention to you." -- Tony G 03:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The "Harassing" conversation. Everything is included here except the origional e-mail I sent Durova asking for her help in clairifying what she had done. Durova, could you please provide this to make this conversation complete? Also, I too would like to know what you are defining "Attack Page."

Durova to me - April 12

There's no need to discuss an infraction of WP:MEAT as obvious as that one, yet I did discuss it at the COIN thread. And yes, if you showed me evidence of other users who voted within 5 minutes of each other and who also both admitted to doing volunteer work together and who also both actively pursued the same side in edit disputes I would also block them. Durova

ThePete to Durova - April 12

So as this informaiotn is well known of tony and I, would a 6mn gap between votes be enough to keep us from being banned in the future?

ThePete to Durova - April 12

Also, COuld you please forward me where this was discussed in the MEAT thread? Thanks for your help.

Durova to me - April 12

I don't advise you to try that.

ThePete to Durova - April 12

Its not about trying, or your advisement. its about knowing the rules. If two people who know eachother get banned for voting within 5 mn of each other, then what to the rules state is the acceptable amount of time two users who know eachother can vote? Clairify for me please. Also, Could you please direct me to where this bann was discussed in the MEAT thread? Thanks for your help. Pete

Durova to me - April 13

The amount of follow-up that you have requested regarding this block is unreasonable. Direct your questions about rules to the WP:ADOPT mentorship program.

April 13th

9:49 AM me: Hey, Could we talk here to clear up the questions I had?

10:01 AM Durova: I doubt there's anything left to be said that a mentor from WP:ADOPT couldn't do equally well.

10:01 AM me: I am looking to find out form you what the accaptable amout of time for two people who know eachother is to vote on the same topic

10:02 AM Because I can not find a polocy that voting within 5mn of each other violates

10:03 AM Durova: You can find that out from any mentor.

10:04 AM me: I am looking to find out from you, the person who banned us, as such, you should have that info available. I just want to understand it better

10:04 AMDurova: And I have given you that information in sufficient detail ad nauseam.

10:04 AMme: no, you said it would "take too long to explain"

10:05 AM Durova: My responsibility as a site administrator is to apply policy, not to explain its principles in minute detail. For that we have other volunteers.

10:07 AM me: I just don't want to break policy in the future, and not to break policy in the future, I need to know spicifically what I violated. What specifically warranted the block? you listed the polocy, but didn't go into it any more then we admited to know eachother. I just want to understand better here, as from what I understand from the info listed, we were banned from voting within 5mn of eachother.

--No Reply by Durova--Zeeboid 12:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• There really is not much point addressing any of this. I have no faith in this process of being fair and objective, the aforementioned block being the latest example. Seeing that making quick and incomplete links/quotes is the preferred method of response or support, there is no legitimacy in the belief that this process seeks the facts. Providing complete context is called wikilawyering and ignored (in the case of the referenced block by Durova, that was one of the reasons listed for the block). So, this will be a partial list of relevant items...and they will be shortened as well.

For the record: the text that Durova refers to as "explanation" for the blocks:

This subthread, however, is...about the actions of two of his accusers. Zeeboid's defense is a false analogy: Connolley and Mann do not participate in the same Wikipedia WP:AFD discussions, but Tony and Zeeboid both voted within 5 minutes of each other at the same AFD and both admit to being close associates. Whether that work is volunteer or paid is irrelevant to the meatpuppetry and vote stacking clauses of WP:SOCK. Also, unlike Connolley and Mann, Zeeboid and Tony have aggressively pursued an editor with baseless claims of malfeasance and have extended this...discussion to absurd lengths through logical fallacies and wikilawyering. That's WP:POINT and you're both blocked for a week.

So, rather than give a defense that is not going to be considered anyway, I will pose these questions (and hope these are not ignored by Durova).

1. Obviously there is not a distinction between private and public correspondence (based on Durova posting a private e-mail on a public page), in light of such strong allegations that she makes which include off-wiki chat, can you provide the full text of "harassing" chats?
2. Where is the exact wording that you interpreted to mean that 5-minutes between votes is SOCK? Would that include reverts done by different people on a regular basis within minutes of each other?
3. Is one week standard first block timeframe when the justification is so broad that understanding the specific violations are difficult to determine?
4. When was the opportunity to "defend ourselves" offered? Was it after I mentioned I would be offline for about 2 days (which was posted at 18:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC))? The only one I see was posted at 04:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC) with the block occurring at 15:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC) (which, btw, would be overnight for me had I even had access to the internet at the time).
5. The five links provided with bullet points are to demonstrate what? One is to the archive containing the COI where the blocks were announced. The other 4 are talk pages, one started by Zeeboid, one by BlueTie, one by Childhood's End and the other started by UbER. What is the harassment? Who are the harassers again? If that many different people do not understand a rationale, shouldn't that be an indication of how poorly it was explained?
6. Does GMail chat count in a Wikipedia discussion? If the supposed harassment exists outside of Wiki then that is a police matter...or does Wikipedia policy include non-wiki e-mail? If you are not starting some off-wiki complaint for harassment then it must not be harassment to begin with.
7. Based on what you have presented here how is my or Zeeboid asking an admin that block us to explain why "behavior that appears to a reasonable and objective observer to have the purpose of causing negative emotions in a targeted person"?
8. If the 4 links Durova provided above are examples (and as of the writing of this the ONLY examples) of harassment, why are only Zeeboid and I the only ones with notification of this request?
9. It seems that this is request from a defensive posture with having a number of people (not just the two who were blocked) asking for clarification on the blocks. Why we are being targeted? The reasons, patterns and connections are pretty clear...but I would not want to be accused of violating AGF without providing proof and then blocked for wikilawyering for providing proof. However, a partial summary was sent to Durova at the very outset of the COI where this all originated to help keep the page from being cluttered with background information. That message was ignored leaving no choice but to try and explain online everything that was relevant.
10. Final item...this one is rhetorical. The COI was against an admin that was, at the very root, editing article text about a colleague and then requesting the article to be deleted outright. The result of the COI in a nutshell was (1) The initial COI was baseless as the connections were not strong enough (co-authoring a blog, presentations, research papers, etc), (2) the connections between two people providing the links to the blog, presentations, etc (and providing responses to every "evidence presented does not meet newly stated nuance" by Durova) were enough to block them simply for voting within 5 minutes of each other, and (3) the same two people, upon seeking clarification from "the horse's mouth" being targets of a selective request for action. -- Tony G 20:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this gives some relevant perspective on Tony's contributions. --Stephan Schulz 07:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

How so? What relevance and how does that matter at all? Is there a policy that says what portion of a person's edits must be where? Tony G 12:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC) (Corrected signature since I did not notice that I had timed out before saving page previously...an offense I have no doubt will be somehow warped as a blockable and disruptive offense, like asking for understanding why someone blocked me. Interesting reaction, obviously designed to imply denigrating claims without being held accountable for such personal attacks). -- Tony G 18:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Was that Mnyakko or Zeeboid just now? --Akhilleus (talk) 14:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless they share IPs, Tony. --Stephan Schulz 14:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Zeeboid's behavior towards User:Durova is one instance in a larger context of his ongoing disruption, personal attacks and the like in articles related to global warming. He hae a long history of abusive or dubious comments in talk pages and edit summaries (some examples of the latter here [3] [4] [5]). He has persistently attacked User:William M. Connolley regarding Connolley's affiliation with the Green Party and environmental organizations. [6] [7] Such attacks are in blatant violation of the injunction at WP:NPA against "using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views." He also filed a clearly vexatious WP:3RR complaint against Connolley [8] This is only a small sample of an extensive history of harrassment, abuse, and attacks. The patience that Durova, Connolley, and others have shown in the face of Zeeboid's disruption is commendable in a personal sense. But allowing such behavior to go unchecked is damaging to the project. Raymond Arritt 15:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• Quick clarification...THIS complaint is about harassment by "several editors" (still, Durova has not clarified any specifics and all of the following commentary and attacks are presuming who she specifically means by "several editors"). This has nothing to do with anything before the alleged harassment. And, as you (Raymond) and others engaged in personal attacks here have previously demonstrated, prior history is not relevant...and is in fact nothing more than Wikilawyering. Or did the standards of what is acceptable change? -- Tony G 15:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I can only learn by using the examples of you, the more seasoned wiki editors. When I lay out examples of what I feel are violations of rules, and relevant history you call it "wikilawyering" and say i'm attacking people and history does not matter, we should AGF. so by using your previous examples you are attacking me personally and you should stop wikilawyering. i mean, what is good for the goose is good for the gander, no?--Zeeboid 15:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Uh oh...those 2 edits were within 15 minutes of each other. Does THAT violate whatever policy we were blocked for? I do not know because there was no explanation to show the timeframe was not created by Durova. I saw nothing in her text or the text she claimed her actions were based on that mentioned or implied anything about a specific timeframe. How can anyone know? Yet is it somehow "harassing" to request such clarification of the person who fabricated the vague criteria. -- Tony G 18:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

You're focusing too much on the timeframe, and too little on the fact that you and Zeeboid work together. Try reading WP:SOCK#Meatpuppets again. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Akhilleus, after reading the guideline it appears to me that the fact they work together and are friends is only pertinent if they are truly single-purpose accounts. Do you think I am reading it wrong? RonCram 01:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, Mnyakko and Zeeboid look a lot like single-purpose accounts to me, but that isn't the main issue here. You might want to read the CN discussion that Durova linked to in the post that started this thread. If two users are coworkers/friends/family members and vote the same way in AfDs or advocate the same position in controversial discussions (like, say, making frivolous and absurd arguments that an editor should be restricted from editing because of an alleged conflict of interest), they're going to be seen as meatpuppets. When two users jointly contribute to a website whose stated purpose is to collect "data about admins abusing their power, etc." it's clear that they're communicating off-wiki about editing Wikipedia; such users are going to be seen as meatpuppets.

In my opinion, the meatpuppetry alone merits another block for both users; add the on-wiki harassment and WP:POINTyness, plus the attack site, and I have a hard time seeing why we allow the users to stay around. To be quite frank, I'd block them myself, except that I've been in several discussions with these users, and might therefore seem too involved. So, would someone else like to step in here? --Akhilleus (talk) 05:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) I agree that the coordinated wikilawyering and harrassment by User:Mnyakko (a/k/a Tony G.) and User:Zeeboid must be stopped. These individuals are engaging in a campaign to create endless debate, to wear down, frustrate, disrupt and prevent productive users from building a neutral encyclopedia, as evidenced by the length and tone of this thread, and the evidence presented by Durova. I think further blocks under WP:POINT/WP:HARASS are necessary to protect the project, and if the disruption resumes after that, this matter should be taken to WP:CN. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 09:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Wait a second. Are you saying that two people who know each other cannot vote the same way on the same issue? Doesn't that seem as ridiculous to you as it does to me? There are plenty of editors and admins here who email each other. Wikipedia provides them the opportunity to "Email this user" on the Talk page. This looks like you are trying to punish them for their viewpoint ("vote the same way in AfDs or advocate the same position in controversial discussions") and not because any guideline has been broken. Intolerance of minority viewpoints is not encyclopedic. This attempt to punish Tony and Zeeboid appears to me to be another example of why Larry Sanger criticized Wikipedia as a "an often dysfunctional community." [9] Admins should be more sensitive to appearances and more tolerant of other viewpoints. When you admit you are punishing someone for their viewpoint, that is really going too far. RonCram 14:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

RonCram, I see that you are very active in the Anti Global Warming controversy. That's fine. I have no position in that controversy whatsover. This thread isn't about WP:SOCK. This thread is about user(s) who abuse process to create endless debates and disrupt the encyclopedia (WP:POINT) through wikilawyering. It's about harassment of community member(s) (WP:HARASS). Everyone has had a chance to comment, and I think the comments fairly represent the opinions of all sides.
Can one or more sysops please make a decision on Durova's request? Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 16:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Is all of this ink really about a block that expired a week ago? The best approach at this point is for User:Zeeboid and User:Mnyakko to move on and demonstrate, via contributions, that they have something constructive to add to the project. Wikipedia's policies, while intended to be fair, are primarily concerned with facilitating the construction of an online encyclopedia, not with creating a fully functional judicial system. Blocks are subject to review by the community, but I don't see any indication that anyone feels they were unjust, other than those directly concerned. Demanding proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" for an already-expired block which the community has endorsed is wikilawyering. Going on endlessly about an expired block and harassing the blocking admin are disruptive. MastCell ^Talk 18:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this ink is really about two blocks that expired a week ago. And no, I was not pressured into it by advocates for William Connolley. I consider it WP:POINT that it remains an issue and request that an uninvolved administrator implement appropriate blocks because of the harassment against me. If the aggressors continue to wikilawyer the issue, any editor here may propose a community sanction modeled after the one I linked to at the opening post of this thread. That should settle the question definitively. Durova^Charge! 19:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have not taken the time to read all the ink above, but let me just give some further evidence regarding Zeeboid. After the block following a discussion in which Durova was quite patient (in my opinion), Zeeboid responded by insulting Durova [10]. Soon after the block expired, Zeeboid returned to one of the global warming related articles and made a series of 3 reverts in a space of 26 minutes, carefully going as far as he could without going over the limit [11][12][13]. These reverts inserted POV material, removing material that (1) was fully supported by evidence referenced on the page, via a link to this page full of evidence and (in the 3rd revert) an explicit citation; and (2) was finally stable after a protracted debate on the talk page. He also commented on the talk page on a different topic, in what I would consider effectively a troll [14]. I say "effectively" because trolling has to do with intentions, which are impossible to know; but certainly, his suggestion is laugable to nearly any scientist and exhibits either a lack of knowledge or a lack of sincerity about the topic. Specifically, he suggested that "having at least one publication in the natural sciences" is too strong of a requirement (!) for determining who is a scientist for a GW-related article.

Thanks for your time. --Nethgirb 07:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of allegations

My arguement for this change was made in the associated talk pages.[15][16].--Zeeboid 13:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Your argument [17] came after your last revert [18]. Given the contentious wording of that passage on which the editors finally seemed to agree, you should have discussed before making changes. (Also, your argument was wrong and ignored the relevant principles.) You effectively placed the importance of your opinion above statements of reliable sources and above the consensus of other editors, and did so in an aggressive, disruptive way. --Nethgirb 20:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The community's reluctance to act in cases such as this continues to amaze me. Are we here to build an encyclopedia? Or are we a sociological experiment in trying to reform those who engage in destructive behavior, by giving them unlimited chances to prove themselves no matter how much damage they do in the interim? If the former, then people who continually abuse process, abuse respected administrators, abuse other editors, and create general havoc need to be politely but firmly directed to apply their talents elsewhere. Raymond Arritt 10:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Does it? What about the questions that we have asked that go unanswered? I would still like the one who banned us (Durova) to answer the simple questsions we have asked. I have included our chat history above, and it is quite obvious there was no harassment involved. the questions asked of the person who banned us are not beond the scope of acceptable, and i'm not the only one who think so[19]. this whole thing has come up because an admin is unwilling to explain her actions. What message does that send to wiki editors? It would appear more like this whole issue (the origional ban and the talk of this one) is to scielence debate when it comes to the improvement of articles.--Zeeboid 13:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Question: Nethgirb said, "carefully going as far as he could without going over the [3RR] limit"...is THAT a problem? If so then there are a number of people on those same pages (admins included) that do that on a near daily basis on many articles per day. Follow-up: If this is a problem, why are you not mentioning this (non-germane) WP:3RR issue when dealing with someone you obviously disagree with...IOW, why is it only an issue worth you mentioning on a selective basis?

Question: Nethgirb said, "removing material that (1) was fully supported by evidence referenced on the page"...is THAT a problem? If so then there are a number of people on those same pages (admins included) that do that on a daily basis on many articles per day. This is sounding like a textbook example of WP:OWN on behalf of those including Nethgirb. Follow-up: If this is a problem, why are you not mentioning this (non-germane) WP:AR dispute when dealing with someone you obviously disagree with...IOW, why is it only an issue worth you mentioning on a selective basis?

There are more comments from Nethgirb's last comment like this, but I know the questions posed will be ignored, and being that Durova is an admin and brought forward the complaint (without naming anyone) and Nethgirb's comments are on her side, he only needs to make claims of wrong-doing (no matter how factless they are, how misleading the statements are, or how incomplete of a picture the diffs show) and it will be taken as end-all-be-all fact. It is also clear from past history in matters like these that no matter how solid the documentation is in the other direction it is dismissed...either as not being sufficient enough, or if a lot is presented it is dismissed as wikilawyering. The process is a sham.

It is not even worth the time to actually present the documentation that the preceding blocks by Durova were beyond a normal length of time of other blocks by Durova (and other admins). Nothing will be done about THAT either. Longer than normal blocks by an admin on suspiciously underexplained grounds followed by a more vague and less legitimate allegation of harassment simply because "several" people asked for understanding (so a similar Salem-like process could not happen to them in the future). That is just the surface of inappropriate admin actions...and nothing will be done. It was clear to many how this whole thing would end at the beginning which had a very suspicious timeline (using the block rationale's logic and precedent) by the people involved here. -- Tony G 13:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The blocks in question expired a week ago. You've solicited community input here, and no one seems to feel that the blocks were particularly unjust. It's time to let it go, move on, and contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. The community tends to give people who contribute constructively a bit of leeway, whereas editors who seem more interested in arguing a case than contributing tax everyone's patience. Continuing to argue at such length about an expired block which no one else seems to feel was unjust is disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. The best advice is to let it go and get back to editing, because continuing in this vein is likely to result in another block. MastCell ^Talk 16:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe the behavior already deserves additional blocks and leave the accounts and the durations to the discretion of other administrators. In particular I find it troublesome that one of these parties responded to the identification of eight connected off-Wiki attack pages not by deleting them but by password protecting them. This has the very strong appearance of a POV-pushing clique intent on gaming Wikipedia's system in pursuit of their political goals who dogs any administrator diligent enough to set limits on their activity. I've bent over backwards to be scrupulous, just, and patient in this matter and have gotten nothing but grief from this group of people. Durova^Charge! 17:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: "let it go"...Obviously the words being written are a waste of time, so if you REALLY want to be objective (as so many claim to want but few actually mean it) and understand why I even am discussing the blocks then answer these questions. In this entire thread, who mentioned the blocks first? According to the the 2 admins initiating this complaint (Durova with vagueries & Akhilleus minutes later naming me) the "harassment" is regarding what? What information has been (and still is) being sought by "several editors" from the actual person who performed the antecedent action? Can you find A-N-Y-W-H-E-R-E that Durova has made an effort to help understand the reasoning used or to answer a question? (All I have seen is deflection to other people or referal to the very item that is not understood). Tony G 19:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Tony, the block's been explained to you, to Zeeboid, and to other editors who have asked, several times, starting in the original COI/N thread that kicked this off. The problem is that you are unwilling to accept the explanation. And as several people have noted in this very thread, your continuing requests for an explanation amount to disruption and harassment. Speaking of harassment, I notice you haven't said very much about the pages on Race to the Right's wiki where you're tracking the activities of several Wikipedia users. As I'm sure you're aware, some of the users whom you're tracking consider those pages a form of stalking and harassment. Do you think they're wrong? --Akhilleus (talk) 22:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussions about anything are not possible unless everyone understands the terms, which is why I ask again: Define "harassment". Somehow I'm listed on this retaliatory ANI by Durova for harassment of Durova...noone is capable of explaining how. Define "harassment". -- Tony G 03:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see this going anywhere productive. At this point, I'd encourage archiving this thread and a swift block for Tony G and/or User:Zeeboid at the next hint of disruption, wikilawyering, perseverating on these expired blocks, harassment, etc. MastCell ^Talk 22:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

And by allowing them to avoid any explantion that leaves us basically forced to agree with all actions/edits of all admins and their clique, because the mere disagreement will be (intentionally) mislabeled as 'harassment' and typing one sentence in defense will be claimed to be 'wikilawyering'. There is no standard whatsoever to know what was done wrong. Effectively one of us is forever disenfranchised because if there is any vote that we both participate in we will be "swift blocked" using Durova's 5th link on this ANI as justification. And what harassment did I participate in? MastCell, save this diff because I guarantee the "next hint" will be even more vague than Durova's input in these matters. And think about it...can you explain to a new person what specifically was violated? (If you can then you would be the first.) -- Tony G 03:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Akhilleus, Could you show us all where the blocks have been explained? I don't see any attempt to do so here, though I do see people keep bring up that it was explained. Make this easy for us. Can you find anywhere that Durova has made an effort to help understand the reasoning used or to answer a question? Though I do see it being asked several times with no answer, I also see the questions deflected by your claim to have found an "attack Page." Also, on that note, I ask AGAIN (I think this is the 4th or 5th time now) that you explain what your definition of "Attack Page" and HARASSING are, Because I don't see anyone explaining or answering that either. The definition of Harassment is:

Harassment is defined as a pattern of disruptive behavior that appears to a reasonable and objective observer to have the purpose of causing negative emotions in a targeted person or persons, usually (but not always) for the purpose of intimidating the primary target.

The Deffinition of Attack Page is:

A Wikipedia article, page or image created for the sole purpose of disparaging its subject is an attack page.

Could anyone explain to any of us how that chat text or our requests qualifying as "having the purpose of causing negative emotions in a targeted person or persons"? Could anyone explain how the of-site listing Non-Wiki (of which the best evidence you have is a Google cache) listing of diff's qualifies as "A Wikipedia article, page, or image created for the sole purpose of disparaging its subject"? Could anyone explain anything?

MastCell, You don't see this going anywhere productive because no one is answering any questions or explaining themselves. The best leg you have to stand on is a claim of "an attack page" which doesn't even qualify as an attack page, which it doesn't even fit into, and others don't agree with. You are all getting so upset over this Giant cheese wheel you have created, fail to back it up with anything worthwhile or substantial, choose to ignore all attempts to have us learn from supposed mistakes, and then have the gall to get angry when you go and again choose to fail to back your argument up with anything worthwhile, or substantial, or ignore all attempts to have us learn from what you claim to be huge errors and it goes round and round! Durova, Stephan Schulz, Akhilleus, MastCell, come on, and at least explain some of these points, cite lines of text in the policys you are claiming to affect us, and you might have a better shot at getting rid of your believed "opposition" that you have been trying so hard to do. Or, you could explain to us, help us, work with us, and push to make Wikipedia better, despite someone thinking differently then you. Your actions are not becoming of the spirit of Wikipedia.--Zeeboid 02:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with MastCell. Time to call a halt and block any of these editors who persist in disruption. JQ 05:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

"[Attack page] (of which the best evidence you have is a Google cache)" - I think this illustrates the point. You are wrong on multiple counts here. First, a Google cache is perfectly valid evidence. Secondly, there is testimony by me, and certainly by Raymond, William, Netgirb, and others who have seen the page. Thirdly, there are multiple references to it in e.g. the history of Tony's talk page. Fourthly, it does not matter. This is not a criminal court of law. We all know about this attack page. Even you have, so far, not denied its existence. So why this remark, except maybe as a smoke screen? --Stephan Schulz 12:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Schulz, your still not getting it. Read Wikipedia:Attack_page. Based on that, it is not an attack page. Also, None of you have told us what an "Attack Page" is. I have by refrencing wiki. Perhaps your arguement for it being an "Attack Page" would be better if you could tell us all how it qualifies as an "Attack page," but I don't see any attempts to do so. You are attempting to explain why it is a valid refrence, which I can concede, however how does it fit into Wikipedia:Attack_page? The closest you may bring up doesn't even fit[20] as it is also not an [Wiki Personal Attack] because an archive wiki diffs doesn't seam to count as a Personal Attack, unless you can explain to us how a collection of your own Diffs on a non-wiki page fits within the policy. There is no reason to "deny its existance" because its existance is moot, as you can not explain how it is a "Personal Attack" or how it even qualifies for a WP:POINT or WP:HARASS ban.--Zeeboid 13:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The page you're looking for is Wikipedia:Attack sites. That guideline isn't stable right now, but most editors would agree with the first sentence: "Attack sites are sites outside Wikipedia that are used to facilitate, promote, or encourage the harassment of individual Wikipedia editors." Race to the Right's GW pages appear to be designed for exactly that. Or are you going to tell me that you have individual pages for William M. Connolley, Stephan Schultz, Raymond Arritt, Kim Petersen, Nethgerb, Raul654, BozMo, and SteveWolfer so you can figure out which barnstar to give them? As I've already said, uBeR had pages like this in his userspace, and they were speedily deleted as attack pages (Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:UBeR/WMC). Since you made the pages login-only, most of the editors in this discussion can't see anything but the google cache. However, I've registered for the site, so I'll quote some of the text on the main GW page, which says:

Due some very large revelations which should not be made widely public these pages are being moved to a registration required site.

The scope of this has widened tremendously and the ends have been changed drastically.

Registration for access to the new location will be obtained only by following these steps:

1) Register on this website.

2) From Wikipedia's website select the "e-mail user" option to e-mail Mnyakko

3) The e-mail will be replied to. You will then have to reply back with the User ID that already exists on this website.

4 Once the IP addresses are logged access will be granted to the portion of data collection that exist on this website. Actual case preparation is NOT on this website and is available only to people on an as-needed basis.

These are the pages specifically for collecting data about admins abusing their power, etc. which eventually will be presented to higher authorities in Wikipedia.

To me, that looks like open-ended data collection against a group of users you don't like, for mysterious and ominous purposes. What "cases" are you talking about exactly? Anyway, I'd say that this site looks like an off-wiki coordinating point for on-wiki harassment and meets any common sense definition of "attack site". --Akhilleus (talk) 14:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hm, now I can't login to the Race to the Right site anymore. Pity. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Akhilleus, I beg to differ. Based on the google cache I saw, there are no "mysterious and ominous purposes" of the site. It was not intended "to facilitate, promote, or encourage the harassment of individual Wikipedia editors." It was clearly a collection of "diffs" such as required to enforce Wikipedia policy. I did not understand the relevance of all of the diffs I read, but several of them clearly violated Wikipedia policy IMHO. The Wikipedia:Attack sites page you cited was not fully quoted. It goes on to say: "These sites' activities include the malicious posting of abusive comments, physical threats, libel, and attempts to disclose the private information of Wikipedians." The google cache I saw held none of these elements. This clearly not an attack site. RonCram 00:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Ron, as I have already said in this very thread several times, the Race to the Right site is doing the same thing that uBeR was doing in his user space. Apparently you think that's ok, but there was a consensus that uBeR's pages were attack pages, and they were speedily deleted. If the Race to the Right pages were in Zeeboid's or Mnyakko's user space they would be speedy deleted as attack pages.

And to be frank, I think your analysis of the quotation from Wikipedia:Attack sites is a great example of Wikilawyering. You take one sentence from the document, without regard for its context, and you read it incorrectly. The sentence begins "These sites' activities include..." The sentence doesn't list everything that attack sites do, nor does it say that a site must do those things to be considered an attack site. However, the RttR pages probably could be considered a "malicious posting of abusive comments". Nevertheless, the most important part of Wikipedia:Attack sites is its first sentence, "Attack sites are websites outside Wikipedia that are used to facilitate, promote, or encourage the harassment of individual Wikipedia editors." And some of the editors here have said quite plainly that they feel the RttR pages are harassment directed at them. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Akhilleus, I did not see UBeR's site so I do not know if it was the same or not. One difference is that UBeR's page was hosted by Wikipedia. I suppose that gives the community the right to vote to delete it. But a vote to delete it does not mean it was an attack site. I am offended but not surprised by your charge of wikilawyering. You are the one who started this line of reasoning. As wikilawyer for the prosecution you left out an important portion of the description of an attack site. I do not feel it is wikilawyering to provide the context of your quote. Now you claim the RttR pages "probably" could be considered "a malicious posting of abusive comments." I disagree. I do not see how listing the comments of other Wikipedia editors can be considered wrong. Tony and Zeeboid did not make these comments. They were only showing what others have said. If these others feel harassed by being quoted, then perhaps they should be more careful about what they write. A page listing "diffs" that show editors who have violated Wikipedia policy cannot possibly be considered an "attack site" using the Wikipedia definition. In my opinion, you also owe Tony and Zeeboid an apology for these baseless charges.RonCram 14:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Perhaps I could suggest that WP:MEAT should not have been construed as prohibiting two editors who we know are two different persons acting on their own behalf. The fact that they work together does not involve that they are not intellectually independent and that they should be denied the right to cast two votes and share similar opinions. WP:MEAT has been designed to enhance WP:SOCK, not to prevent editors from supporting each other. --Childhood's End 13:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Childhoodsend. It was nice to hear from Durova that she did not feel any conscious pressure to punish editors merely for holding a minority viewpoint, but it seems to me that the unconscious level of pressure is still quite high. A cursory reading of this section shows a number of Connelly's friends who want Tony and Zeeboid punished and the reasons keeps changing. When Durova first blocked them for a week, it seemed like a long time to me but I assumed they must have overstepped some bound. Since then I have had a chance to look into the reasons for the block and it was definitely unjustified. I am not aware of the definition of wikilawyering but it has been mentioned here. My guess is the definition is not clearcut. If wikilawyering means lengthy responses, then Tony and Zeeboid may have done that but in this instance it seems reasonable to me. What is the proper response when one has been unjustly blocked? They have asked for reasons and Durova has insisted that she doesn't have to provide them. It seems to me that the easiest and best solution here is for Durova to apologize for the lengthy and unjustified block and let's get back to writing an encyclopedia. RonCram 14:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, they are now certainly justified to present their case and ask for clarifications. The administrator who very swiftly issued these blocks, and should I add lenghty blocks, should at least apologize. Also, as someone who tried to participate in the original discussion, I felt there was some "power trip" going on there and these blocks did intimidate me.

On another issue, let's try to shorten edits herein... --Childhood's End 14:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely with RonCram. It is absolutely unfair, inaccurate and untrue to say that Zeeboid has been inappropriate in any way in the Global warming. he has constantly particiapted in a constructive way. there is no basis for claiming he has been at all inappropriate. he was attempting to work during a time of great contention. Fortunately things have improved, but I feel his efforts and actions were entirely valid in that discussion. Very often he added very constructive ideas and points. --Sm8900 14:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I have not read this full item, but I am mentioned here, so I respond. I consider Durova to be an exceptional Administrator. If up for confirmation, I would enthusiastically vote for him or her. At the same time, I did not agree with Durova's logic or decision in this case. That is probably a difference in opinion about how to look at evidence and how to treat infractions. (I believe that rules should be tough and clear, that in interpreting evidence, one should assume good faith, and that in dealing with infractions, obvious efforts to destroy the encyclopedia should be handled harshly but otherwise, we should encourage people to edit and not drive them away until all efforts at reform have failed. I believe that Durova has improperly assumed meat puppetry for Zeeboid. I do not believe the evidence is conclusive in that regard. I am not even sure it is all that strong. (But I might not have seen it all). Consequently, I thought the block was not very well justified and at least too harsh. I brought this to Durova's talk page but I have not made a big issue of it. If there is some suggestion that I have made a big issue of it, I consider that to be untrue. --Blue Tie 15:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It may be useful to point out that a number of the editors commenting here are involved in editing the global warming articles and are prone to conflict with each other. These include (on one or the other side): Blue Tie, Sm8900, Childhood's End, RonCram, Zeeboid, Mnyakko/Tony, myself, Stephan Schulz, Raymond Arritt. All too often, opinions seem to come down along "party lines", and this discussion is no exception. In making a decision on this case it might be useful to take opinions from these parties (myself included) with a grain of salt, and instead judge based on evidence presented by these or other editors. (Sorry if this is obvious; but I felt a full disclosure was in order.) --Nethgirb 12:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

That might be an important consideration for some folk, but not for me. I completely segregated my comments and am only considering and addressing Durova's block of zeeboid, and strictly on the elements I discussed above. To me, global warming has nothing to do with this. I only commented because I was mentioned and also because I discussed this with (well at least presented my thoughts to) Durova at the time. I did not believe the block was handled correctly and I still do not. This has nothing to do with Global Warming and I have no idea of what position Zeeboid takes on that matter. --Blue Tie 14:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

To a certain extent, I agree with Nethgirb. It is helpful to know that the involved editors are often on opposite sides of the global warming debate. The charges brought against Tony and Zeeboid come down to the fact they hold a minority viewpoint. I disagree with Nethgirb's advice that "it might be useful to take opinions from these parties (myself included) with a grain of salt, and instead judge based on evidence presented by these or other editors." The facts and logic presented by myself and others who hold to a minority viewpoint have to be considered. This effort to disenfranchise minority viewpoints is contrary to building an NPOV encyclopedia. What is clear is that none of the reasons for blocking Tony and Zeeboid have held up under scrutiny. New reasons are brought forward and they also fail. It is time for apologies to be issued to Tony and Zeeboid and for us to go back to writing an encyclopedia. RonCram 14:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Serious privacy violation attack

There's an editor, Darkness of meta (talk · contribs), who obviously has a number of sockpuppets and appears to be launching a coordinated attack on the Wikipedia attempting to blatantly violate our privacy policy by revealing real names of editors without permission. I have already sent in three requests to the oversight committee and have blocked the main editor account and any other accounts I found. The m.o. is to place the user's real name on the user page and/or user discussion page, or alternatively to move the user and/or user discussion page to a new page in such a way as to violate the privacy policy. I have fully protected my own user page and user discussion page and would strongly encourage any other admins to revert any more instances of this against other people, along with contacting WP:OVERSIGHT to remove the edits from the logs. I consider this a serious threat against my continued contributions to the Wikipedia. --Yamla 18:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an administrator but I would like to politely ask, how does he know some editors real names? Does he know them in real life? Tellyaddict^Talk 19:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure. It's not that hard to get access to mine as I participate in unblock-en-l and I use my real name and email address when responding to emailed requests to my username. However, privacy policy makes it a clear violation to reveal my real name on the Wikipedia itself without my permission and I have not and do not grant this permission. I need to maintain a separation between my Wikipedia identity and my real-life identity. I may well have to set up a new email account so this does not happen to me in the future. --Yamla 19:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the accounts that are committing this attack generally have names like Wikifalls to Oompapa (talk · contribs) or some other variant on an oompapa name. The user may well have other accounts, of course. --Yamla 19:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not doubting your comments in any way and I symapthise for you, if their is anything I can do as a non-sysop, just leave a message. Thank you - Tellyaddict^Talk 19:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll wager a guess it is related to this email I received a few weeks ago. He fishes for a response through wiki email and then posts the name on the email account if the individual replies.--Isotope23 19:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh god, I recieved that email, so did User:Netsnipe and a few more. It's rubbish, but somethings up. Plus clicking on the link of that user. It obviously shows the sockpuppeteer is User:Mr oompapa So do we create a community ban or not? Retiono Virginian 19:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It is related to that, I'm sure, but I did not respond to that message. The user got my real name elsewhere. --Yamla 19:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow. That is some deranged shit. Guy (Help!) 20:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Mr Oompapa has already been indef blocked. He has been creating sock puppets all day today. I have been blocking them on sight when I see them. He obvioulsy changing his IP. I have requested a check user on the 20+ sockpuppets so far to determing an underlying IP range and block it for a little while. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

An additional report has been filed here [21]. I see no reason why this user shouldn't be banned. Retiono Virginian 21:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I recieved one of these emails as well. As Isotope23 pointed out above, the idea behind the attack is that the person will email you with a downright strange message, and then waits for your confused reply (something along the lines of "what are you talking about?" etc.). Then, he's got your email address. Once he's got that, he can easily run it through Google and look for connections between a name and that email address (using social networking sites such as MySpace, LiveJournal, Xanga, etc.). Do NOT respond to the emails, and the attacks will stop. // Sean William 21:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Setting up a Wikipedia-only email address - even a throwaway hotmail account - can be helpful for security. As long as you don't use it for anything but Wikipedia there's no not-paper trail. Natalie 22:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I also received it, as did two other admins I know. Note that my email address is one that only contains my first name & is effectively a throwaway one. I recommend that others use similar for their own protection - Alison^☺ 22:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I got it, as well, about two weeks or so ago (I think). I killed it with fire the moment I got it, not that my real name is really any secret :) Daniel Bryant 02:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm on the road and can't fill out the "paperwork," but I trust that this is being checkusered? Newyorkbrad 02:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

A request has been filed. MER-C 10:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to quickly clear up a misapprehension - the Privacy policy does not anywhere prohibit third parties naming people without first gaining permission. Common sense prohibits that. Shimgray | talk | 17:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• I should add, he's now appeared on the MediaWiki wiki as mw:User:Mr oompapa and his userpage is a collection of vile personal attacks against users on the English Wikipedia. He even created an attack page too, which has been tagged for speedy deletion there. No doubt if he's reading this, he'll probably attack my pages.... --SunStar Net ^talk 17:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Yah, just saw his userpage over there. More puerile attacks on me and two other admins. WP:RBI applies, or in this case, just ignore will do. What a sad, insecure little man he is. I've semi-protected Retiono Virginian's userpage due to attacks from this guy and RV may have gone on WikiBreak as a result of this harrassment. Can others here keep RV on their watchlists? - Alison^☺ 22:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

He's also disrupting IRC, with oompapa themed nicks. Ugughhtrrrhgh... He's on a dynamic IP too. ~Crazytales 03:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhgh. [22] admits to using open proxies. Thus making it difficult to trace the location. But assuming he's not using an IRC proxy (those seem to be hard to find these days), he's on British Telecom DSL. ~Crazytales 20:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh. British telecom? I don't think that's capable of using open proxies. However, we know he's been using open proxies all the time. As about 20 new socks appear per day. A checkuser was formed and it is impossible to block the Ip range too. Retiono Virginian 12:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Spam war

This needs administrator attention:

• User:AlexRadyushin, User:EarthManik123, User:Voyages, User:Tuddy and others (see User:SpamAssasin/Voyages)
• User:Jokum, User:SpamAssasin, User:Beostarling, User:Beostaerling etc.

Canvassing

BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs) disagrees with a CfD outcome and is now canvassing what she perceives as her side of the discussion in an attempt to overturn it. [23] [24] [25] [26]. I believe this to be improper per WP:CANVASS. >Radiant< 10:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

See my substantive reply below, but please note here that:

• It's a pity that you didn't raise your concerns with me before coming to ANI; I don't think that we needed
• It's also pity you did not inform me about this complaint, which is why my reply here is rather belated
• It's a pity that you didn't mention that I promptly notified you that I had informed the other users
• It's a pity that you didn't mention that this was not an XfD discussion or a DRV --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

As the user is not inviting people to an existing !vote, it doesn't seem to me that it technically falls foul of WP:CANVASS. However, that's mere semantics, as in the comment she's pointing to, she clearly states her intention to open such a !vote. Therefore, I think two things: 1) WP:CANVASS could do with a little tightening, to avoid such future tactics and 2) the user should be ticked off for employing such a clear breach the spirit of WP:CANVASS. If this has been done deliberately, such wikilawyering makes me grudgingly admiring of her skills, but wishing they'd be fully devoted to the undoubted positive contribution she makes to this Project. --Dweller 11:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It looks to me as a simple communication to users who might be interested, nothing sinister. Zocky | picture popups 11:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Minus the fact, of course, that they are now accusing Radiant! of pursuing a gender-related agenda. --Iamunknown 11:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Zocky, that's the exact argument used by pretty much every person that breaks WP:CANVASS. If WP:CANVASS exists, we need to follow it. --Dweller 11:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

General comment: I haven't thought through all the details but Ikve concluded at some point WP:CANVASS needs some rethinking. The idea that an issue should be resolved by whoever happens to be watching a procedure page, and that it is illegitimate to consult with the most knowledgeable editors on a subject, is understandable but can be applied overzealously. In particular, in the case of an AfD there would have been a notice placed on the article for editors of the article to at least have an opportunity to see, but for a CfD I don't believe that happens, certainly not where anyone is likely to see it, so CfD's are decided by whoever happens to visit CfD that week (a very narrow cross-section of users) rather than by editors who are working on articles within the category, and it's illegitimate to tell such editors the category is under a deletion debate? That seems odd. Newyorkbrad 23:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• While it may need reworking, it should be obvious that if any process is decided by a very narrow group of users, then any one-sided canvassing will almost automatically sway the outcome to whatever the canvasser wants, which is obviously not the point of such a process. >Radiant< 08:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I think one thing that would help tremendously would be to require a notice at a closed discussion if it's been listed at WP:DRV. That would allow (without the need for canvassing) anyone who commented, who presumably has that page now on their watchlist, to now know about the DRV. There have been many times I was unaware of a DRV for an XfD discussion I commented on, and a note at the closed discussion would have allowed me to know about it. - jc37 06:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Not even sure that would work, jc37. Don't know about you, but whenever I am following a discussion about a deletion, I am only too happy to unwatch it as soon as it is over because of all the watchlist clutter.— scribblingwoman 08:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply from BrownHairedGirl

First, it would have been good practice for Radiant! (talk · contribs) to have notified me that my actions were being raised here, so that I could have replied more promptly. I do not usually monitor this page, so I was unaware of this discussion until another editor notified me on my talk page. It's really rather unfair to start a discussion seeking censure of another editor's actions without notifying them and giving them their chance to explain their side of the story.

Here's what happened. I had participated in the April 11 CFD on Category:Women television writers (I !voted to "keep"), and went back to look at after it had been closed. I was surprised by the way it was closed, because this seemed to me to be a case of "no consensus".

I had never before taken a CFD to deletion review, so I looked at WP:DRV#Purpose, which says "Deletion Review is to be used where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question. This should be attempted first - courteously invite the admin to take a second look."

That seemed to me to be sensible, so that's exactly what I did: I raised my concerns on Radiant's talk page, in this edit. As I understood the situation, what I was doing was raising a concern with in an informal discussion with an editor, in the hope that we would reach agreement on a way forward, and failing that, that we would at least clarify the issues.

It seemed to me that at this stage of informal discussions, it would also be helpful to hear from the other "keep" !voters; if they were happy with the outcome, then so far as I was concerned, that would be end of the matter (the other voters would of course need to be contacted if the matter went any further). So, as Radiant noted, I left messages on the talk pages of the other keep voters, and in this edit I notified Radiant that this had been done. Please note that this was not a deletion review

In the meantime, the deletion of Category:Women television writers had been raised at the related CFD on Category:Women screenwriters, so in this edit I left a note on that discussion pointing to my discussion with Radiant. To my surprise, Radiant promptly deleted that note with an edit summary "please do not edit closed discussions". The discussion had not been closed (and I struggle to see how anyone could think that it had been), so I restored the comment in this edit, and left thi note on Radiant's talk page reminding him not to delete comments from talk pages.

After the warning, Radiant was kind enough to try to restore the deleted comment, although there was some confusion as this was done by reversion which removed some other comments, but he promtplly untangled it all.[27] and [28]

I was surprised that Radiant then simply reverted my warning; there was no acknowledgement of Radiant;s error, and no apology for the unwarranted deletion of my comment. I did think of issuing a further warning about removal warnings, but thought it better to just leave the issue as resolved.

Radiant and I then engaged a few further exchanges on the substantive issue of the CFD closure, and were joined by a few other editors. It seemed to me to be a useful discussion, which was enhanced by the presence of the other "keep" !voters who were able to correct Radiant's assumption that they had intended their votes to mean "keep or merge".

Unfortunately, the whole discussion was then deleted by Radiant in this edit, with the edit summary "get out of here", and replaced with a note "BHG/SW/AM, please take your snide remarks elsewhere".

A separate discussion on the CFD closure continued below, on Radiant's talk page, where User:BenAveling did an analysis of the CFD, and concluded that it should be taken to DRV: see How I would have closed it.

This morning, I have restored the deleted discussion to Radiant's talk page: see User talk:Radiant!#Deleted_discussion_of_the_closure

So, in summary:

• I followed recommened procedure in discssing an issue informally rather than going straight to DRV
• I did not "canvass"; I invited those affected by a CFD decision to join an informal discussion about it, in the course of which they provided useful info to correct a misunderstanding.

If WP:CANVASS is to be taken as applying to any discussion on wikipedia, rather than just to formal decision-making processes, then it needs to be very clearly rewritten to say so. ust as I strongly support support WP:CANVASS as currently applied to XfD, RFA, etc, I for pone would strongly oppose a change which tried to extend it to the rest of wikipedia. I have partcipated in countless informal discussions where someone has posted a few notes saying in effect "hey? what do you think of this?", and the rest has been to make much-better-informed discussion than would otherwise have been the case. Widening WP:CANVASS would shut down many of those discussions by restricting the to people who happened to notice them.

In this instance, it seems to me to be crucial that Radiant had (in good faith, I'm sure) misinterpreted some of the "keep" !votes, and we would not have had that clarification unless I had asked those others to join in.

The subsequent discussion in reply to Ben Aveling's assessment did mutate into a substantive re-examination of the issues (which ought to involve all the original !voters), but that was not what I had sought. I simply wanted to stablish whether I was correct in my initial feeling that there were issues which needed to be taken to DRV, where everyone could have their say.

However, Radiant has

• Accused me of being "snide", with out identifying any particular offending remark
• Wrongly deleted my comment from a CFD (later restored, but without apology)
• Removed a warning from his user page without requesting its removal
• Deleted from his user talk an entire discussion in which he was asked to re-examine his actions
• Ignored the request from Ben Aveling to "Otherwise, as an act of good faith, you might consider taking this to DRV yourself and asking them to reweigh the arguments."

... and then, to, cap it all, raised a complaint against me (here at WP:ANI), without even having the courtesy to notify me (see the top of this page: "As a courtesy, you should inform other users if they are mentioned in a posting"), and -- most crucially -- he then deleted the discussion to which his complaint related, including crucially, the comment in which I personally notified Radiant that I had informed others. The result was a complaint which gravely mispresented the situation, by making it appear that I had been engaged in underhand canvassing of a DRV rather than in open notification of an informal discussion.

I don't believe in rushing off to WP:ANI whenever I have a disagreement with another editor, but now that I have been dragged here, is unreasonable to ask Radiant to accept that it is helpful to all of editors individually and to the project as a whole that when other editors ask them to review their actions they should not automatically dismiss any criticism, and in particular should not delete the discussions in which problems are raised? This seems to me to be particularly important for an admin, who should be expected to uphold high standards.

Thanks! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Userpages Vs WP:NOT#SOAP and WP:POINT again and again

I hope this would be the last time i'd deal w/ these childish stupidities. My stance on the matter of pointy and provocative userpages has been cristal clear. My question to the disruptors is Are you here to imporve Wikipedia?

Yes absolutely → Then you are more than welcome and many thanks. Your efforts are so appreciated.

Yes absolutely but it is my userpage and please don't censor it → then you move your ass and look for a web space provider.

The issue has been involving, for a relatively long time now, a few editors. I am talking here about User:Embargo and User:Matt57.

• User:Matt57's case: Level-headed editor Proabivouac had already spoken to him about the matter here after removing a quote of Hadith from his userpage before he reverted back under the pretext that [he's] not responsible for actions of other users.
• User:Embargo's case: I had already blocked him for a 24h period on December 11, 2006 because of provocative userpage after warnings. You can refer to his talkpage and userpage history for further info. Now and after the involvment of many admins, he is still posting a Sanhedrin (Talmud) tractate in response to Matt57's case (according to him).

So, what is the problem w/ both userpages? Well, Matt57 wants to make a pointy argument about the treatment of women in Islam by using such hadith. Embargo, on the other hand wants to make a similar point about pedastry in Judaism.

Please note that i've interacted w/ both users in the past w/ a relatively both positive and negative outcomes. My patience as an admin is almost gone (i hope not) and i think my n-time involvment on this matter would make things worse (i.e. harsh blocks). Therefore i hope some admin(s) can deal w/ this matter once for all.

P.S. I am not sure if there are more similar cases as i am not a policeman but please let me know if there are any. We are still dealing w/ This guy has racist stuff on his userpage!'s case above. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 15:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted both as violations of WP:USER. -- Avi 15:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Avi. Appreciated. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 15:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

rv VANDALISM - take it to arbitration committee. Is there an arbcom ruling on this, or is it obvious from WP:USER? -- Avi 16:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the quote from the Talmud, even though user:Prester John still keeps his Hadith quote. I intend to keep my userbox supporting Hezbollah, if you have heard of the debate (scroll down), and to which user:Ryan Postlethwaite seems to ideologically object. Emбargo 17:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Prester John's case is dealt w/. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 17:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Avi and Faysal, let me clear this with you - Do you agree with me that ALL religious quotes should be deleted from user pages? See user Itaqallah's page. I'm not trying to be disruptive or proving a point or whatever - the issue is simple. Either religious quotes should be allowed on user pages, or they should not. Please also remove the religious verse on Itaqallah's page. It is unfair and discriminatory to say that one user can have a religious quote to express their approval of a religion, while another cannot have a quote to express their disapproval of the religion. The policies in Wikipedia must be applied uniformly. Besides this user, there are many user pages where religious quotes are displayed. They should ALL be taken down, irrespective of the language, context or nature of the quotation. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 17:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

That has nothing to do w/ your cases Matt. We are dealing w/ WP:POINT here. You can quote whatever you want as long as it is not provacative and polemical or a campaign for or against anything or anyone. Read the quote below. I hope it is cristal clear.

• Polemical statements:

“ libelling people on userpages is a bad idea, and in fact, using userpages to attack people or campaign for or against anything or anyone is a bad idea' ”

- Jimbo Wales, Wikipedia co-founder

If you can prove to us that you were not making a point then that would be another matter. If you can prove to us that Itaqallah is making a point then that would be another matter as well. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 17:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with Matt57 - no religion prostelyzing or bashing. Wikipedia is not the Free speech corner in Hyde Park where everyone gets to take the megaphone and shout to the whole wide world their beliefs, problems, dreams, nightmares or I don't know what. Use Youtube people, it is much more fun and less stressful for that sort of stuff. Or MySpace or whatever.Baristarim 17:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you please provide me w/ facts (policies and guidelines) re this? Also, where's the youtube stuff at Itaqallah's page? Did anyone ask you Baristarim to remove the atheist userbox at your userpage or the Ataturk's Peace at home, peace in the world. stuf? No. Why? Do i have to repeat it again and again? Because they are just NOT PROVOCATIVE! Did anyone ask you Baristarim to remove "This user supports the independence of Cascadia" which you were arguing against on another thread? No. So where is the problem? -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 18:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The Cascadia box is just for kicks :) Anyways, I will join in the conversation later. Baristarim 18:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

That is reasonable. Itaqallah's slogan is borderline. Arrow740 18:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Borderline or not. The issue is simple: Having religious polemical statements on userpages is not allowed. I can translate my statement into French or Arabic too and could defend doing that but I wont. The simple and correct way is to agree to remove all religious content from user pages and stick to the policies and apply them uniformly. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 18:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Faysal, it is irrelevant whether I'm trying to make a point. If I saw a user with a userbox which I also wanted to copy on my page, does it mean I'm trying to make a point? No. I liked that verse on my userpage. It expressed my disapproval of a religion, just like another verse expressed approval of the religion on another user's page. I'm prepared to take this debate to any length so we can be fair to everyone. The quote you mentioned also said "campaign for or against anything ". Having religious quotes on userpages to express the approval of the user's religion means campaigning for the certain religion. Having my quote was campaigning against the religion, obviously. We must remove all religious quotations - that includes Itaqallah's arabic verse on his userpage. I agree to comply with Wikipedia's policies but they should be applied uniformly. Wikipedia's policy states that campaigning FOR is also not allowed on a user's page. Itaqallah's verse must be go as well. I find Itaqallah's verse provocative, because I dont approve at all of the religion he is trying to promote on his user's page. Policies must be applied fairly so please, remove Itaqallah's religious quotation also on his user page.--Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 18:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed ItaqAllah's polemical statement from his user page. Do we all agree on this? thanks. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 18:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't have a strong opinion on which interpretation to favor, but it appears that by FayssaIF's standard, Surah 3 verse 102 is polemical. — coelacan — 20:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

User Netscott reverted my removal of Itaqallah's polemical statement on his user page. I want to hear administrator's confirmation (particularly Faysal's) that, all religious polemical text (irrespective of language, text or nature) should be removed from a user's page. As I said, I'm prepared to participate in any amount of debate to make sure that policies are applied uniformly to all users. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 21:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Surprisingly, not all religious texts are polemical. Professing a belief is typically less provoking than attacking another belief. Distinction is possible and discression required. "Make a narrow rule, so that I can (barely) honour the word, but ignore the spirit" is not the way Wikipedia works.--Stephan Schulz 23:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Having a religious quotation from your holy book is campaigning for that religion. Campaigning is not allowed on user pages: "campaign for or against anything or anyone is a bad idea", said Jimbo Wales. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 23:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Your premise is wrong. Having a quotation from a holy book is not necessarily campaigning. It can be, but it can just as well be a simple profession of faith, or just showcasing a profound thought or beautiful literature. Like a lot of things, it depends on the details and context. --Stephan Schulz 00:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

So whats the limit to what we can and cannot quote from religious texts on our user pages? Can I quote anything from the Quran? This would not be a big problem if people said NO to all reliogious quotes on user pages. If a Muslim has a quote from the Quran on their user page, then I should also be able to have a quote from the Quran on my user page. Thats all I'm saying. If somoene can express approval of the faith they belong to, then for fairness, I should be able to express my disapproval of the religion. Why is that a big issue? And if you see below, people are voicing their disapproval for having any religious texts on user pages and this is what should be done, for fairness. Either allow all quotes or dont allow them, but DONT be selective about what can be quoted and what not. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 00:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Why don'y you suggest it on Wikipedia talk:User page and see how it goes.--Sefringle 01:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I aready did that on that page last month, and it petered out after a few replies. Tarc 13:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

(dedent)Either allow all quotes or don't allow them, [...] - I guess your world is very black and white. The argument is nonsensical. "Either kill all life on Earth, or don't kill at all." "Either eat all the chocolate in the supermarket, or none at all". "Either allow people to own all kinds of weapons, or no weapons at all." "Either allow driving at any speed, or at no speed at all."...and the list goes on. This world has more shades of gray (and don't let me start about various colours!) than you seem to be aware of. --Stephan Schulz 17:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

An excellent religious quotation comes to mind. It appears in several versions.

1. ""What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man." Hillel the Elder
2. "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them...." Matthew 7:12, King James Bible [29]
3. "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you...." Matthew 7:12, New International Bible [30]
4. "Don't be a dick." Wikipedia [31]

That is all. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee rulings from five days ago:

While not explicitly stated on Wikipedia:User page, it is implicit there that users should refrain from creating user pages likely to bring the project into disrepute. Passed 8-0 at 21:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Editors are generally permitted to include in their userspace a limited amount of non-inflammatory personal expression not directly related to encyclopedic collaboration, including moderate declarations of POV. Passed 8-0 at 21:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

From Billy Ego-Sandstein. Take that as you please. Daniel Bryant 01:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Embargo (talk · contribs)

Embargo insists on re-adding an inflammatory userbox on his userpage, despite numerous complaints over the past few months on his talk page. This is the current userbox which I have removed, it reads This user supports islamic resistance wikilinking to Hezbollah, now I'm no islamic expert, but I know that in many countries, Hezbollah is very controversial political party (I think the USA still class them as a terrorist organisation). The statement is clearly polemical, as all the similar userboxes have been which embargo has been putting up. Please could an uninvolved admin have a look at the userbox that I removed? Ryan Postlethwaite 16:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Also, the continued replacement of a quote from the Talmud as a WP:POINT against Matt56 hadith quote (which was removed) shoudl also be reviewed. See rv VANDALISM - take it to arbitration committee. -- Avi 16:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
• I've reverted back to the non-offensive version. This is getting to be an extreme exercise in WP:POINT -M^ask? 16:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
  • (Into the hot water) As much as I despise Hezbollah's acts of terrorism (I cannot call actions which intetionally kill innocent civilians anything else) I do not think that the formulation This user supports islamic resistance (wikilinking to Hezbollah) is per-se so inflammatory that it is not allowed on userpages. Go to arbitration if you must, but I feel repeated editon of another user's userpage in such a controversial case is not "good"; also, what would you do if the text in question was not placed inside of a userbox but *gasp* plaintext on his userpage. Would you still remove it then? Or would you allow it to stand? Where does the right to show bias end? People supporting Israel's retributive actions against Paleastinian acts of violence (and vice versa) would have to remove that information too. And people supporting the Iraq war (or opposing it). And people following radical muslim faith. And radical Christians (time of troubles in Northern Ireland, anyone). And Muslems and Christians and Atheists in general. etc. etc. etc. And then were are left with "This is an userpage" (End of File) CharonX/talk 17:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
    • However, it's clearly a polemical statement, which are against WP:USER, it's not even margianlly an infringement, it's perfectly clear cut. I'm sure Israeili people will be clearly offended by this statement, I think that says it all Ryan Postlethwaite 17:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
      • I went and blocked him for 3RR for a couple days until this clears up. I don't know whether or not it's a problem, if this must be taken to arbcom then do so. They may accept it, they may not.--Wizardman 17:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Technically, you can't really 3RR in your own userspace, but this delightful bit of trolling probably justifies your block anyway.--Isotope23 17:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

This is something that has been discussed before [32] [33]. The behavior of this user has been discussed numerous times as well [34] [35]. Embargo knows what he is doing. He is intentionally being disruptive. IrishGuy ^talk 17:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

...which is why I support the block. I know this is getting lumped in with the Matt issue from the other ANI post above, but these are slightly different situations. Neither really should be posting polemic statements on their userpages, but Embargo in particular seems to have a history of trolling.--Isotope23 17:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Just before his block he created a redirect for Islamic resistance to hezbollah. Would anyone support a longer block due to the amount of trolling that he's done in the past? I'm kinda involved so maybe I'm not the best person to suggest this, but I propose moving it upto 10 days. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

............And block evasion??? Ryan Postlethwaite 18:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I blocked the IP. If someone wants to extend the account block I'd leave it to their discretion.--Isotope23 18:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

And 'round and 'round this goes again. As I've said before, Embargo isn't exactly an agreeable person (in a wikipedia editing sense), but can you see where the uneven treatment can make him get a bit steamed? If there's really going to be "no polemical statements" allowed on user pages, then it must be enforced uniformly and this back-and-forth "some admins delete UserBoxA, but a similar UserBoxB is allowed to stay" stuff has got to come to an end. User:Matt57's (not 56 as noted above) quote is at this moment deleted, but when Embargo brought it to Viridae's attention, Viridae responded with "I can't see anything offensive about at all" ? Also note the previous time where Twas_Now was the one who suggested that either "This user supports armed resistance" or "This user supports resistance to hostility" (both with wikilinks to Hezbollah, note) would be, quote, "good for you" to use.

This is really what needs to be addressed; the need fora uniform policy for ALL user pages that will be upheld by ALL admins. Tarc 19:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Many, many things that may be offensive aren't, this is. Use WP:UCS when evaluating these and all is well. Life is unfair sometimes, it's true, and the onesthat can really be offensive can go, but most aren't offensive, just irksome. -M^ask? 20:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly the kind of BS hypocrisy that has gotten this user into trouble in the first place. Tarc 22:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

No, this user got in trouble for spearheading WP:POINT, which is what most people who do these sorts of userboxes end up doing. Also the people who go around removing every piece of religious text end up getting into as well. Common sense, its a wonderful thing, any one who doesn't use it often should try it. -M^ask? 22:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Arabic, Itaqallah, and Matt (arbitrary section break)

I have agreed to the removal of religious text from my page, as long as the policy is applied to ALL, as user Tarc pointed out above. This user Itaqallah also has religious text (it doesnt matter if its in Arabic. It must go as well). I had removed it but was reverted and threatened by a block from Netscott for removing it. Can someone please remove this so it is clear the policy is applied to all uniformly? We're also discussing this 2 sections above this one. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 22:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed. This should be discussed with the other pages. -- Avi 01:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I must say I am not in agreeance with the removal of User:Itaqallah's Qur'anic quote for the following reasons: (1) It's in Arabic and (2) it is addressed to "those who believe" and (3) the primary reason that its removal has come about is User:Matt57's pointed addition of a "hadith" (I still am very doubtful as to the nature of Matt57's quote due to the fact that I could only find it mentioned on anti-Islam punditry sites). If the quote on Itaqallah's page was addressed to those who didn't "believe" as though they'd be subject to eternal damnation or some other such nonsense then I'd understand the removal but I don't see what User:Matt57 or (User:Embargo for that matter ) was doing as equivalent to Itaqallah's display. (→Netscott) 05:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It may well be that when all is said and done that such quotes would be allowed for the reasons you mention. However, as it is a point of discussion now, I felt it better to simultaneously discuss it here and try and prevent any appearances of impartiality. I would say, that being that this is English wiki, it would be a prudent idea to, at the very least, have an accurate translation of foreign sayings on user pages to help forestall any misconceptions. -- Avi 05:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Embargo wasn't the only one violating WP:POINT. as i explained to Avi, Matt57 put up that particular extract on his page in order to be provocative, and in particular, bait a response from me [36][37][38][39], despite him believing that scriptural extracts weren't allowed on user pages.[40] ITAQALLAH 15:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Netscott, the language, nature or context of the Quranic verse should not matter. Either all users should be allowed to have quotes from Islamic sources on user pages, or they should not. If I'm not allowed to have an Islamic source on my userpage, then it would be wrong for anyone else to be allowed to have a quotation. My question will then be: Whats the limit to what I can quote and not? I find ItaqAllah's Quranic verse "No one should die except in the state of Islam" as offensive. Please read my arguments above. If someone is allowed to express their approval of Islam, then others should be allowed to express their disapproval of the same. If you apply Wikipedia policies, you will arrive at the right decision which is, to not allow campaigning for or against anything. Having this Quranic verse qualifies as campaining for Islam and is thus wrong. I agreed to have my quotation removed and I expect that for fairness, everyone else including Itaqallah should accept the same judgements for their user pages. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 15:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Matt, my actions should not indicate that I agree that no religious quotations per se exist, but there should definitely be no statements that lead to project disruption. Pointed comments about stoning women, pedastery, killing infidels, ritual murder, theft, superiority of any one religion, race, or creed versus others (to name some hypothetial examples) are forbidden under WP:USER. Things like love your fellow man, live in peace and harmony, likely help the project.

In this situation, I felt that possibly disruptive comments should be removed, especially in a foreign language where the intent of the statement is unknown to 99% of project members. This issue needs to be hashed out and a consensus reached. My own personal opinion (FWIW) is that positive comments, even if religious in origin, are likely not disruptions, and should be permitted, but anything that can be considered disruptive should be removed, religious or non-religious. I removed the arabic comment because I could not be sure as to its meaning, and it was brought into a conversation about disruption, and the fairest result in my mind was to remove it for the time being, and reinstate it if it can be shown to be acceptable. It is not a comment as to the nature of the statement, as of now, since I am not certain as to the exact meaning just yet. -- Avi 15:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. "superiority of any one religion", thats what Itaqallah's verse said: "die not except in a state of Islam.". So not only is this a violation, it is also in Arabic as you pointed out. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 15:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

"I find ItaqAllah's Quranic verse "No one should die except in the state of Islam" as offensive"- it doesn't say that at all. you are misquoting a religious text, and this is not the first incidence of such. ITAQALLAH 15:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Itaqallah, please dont falsely accuse me of misquoting. The verse says what I said it says: "die not except in a state of Islam." --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 15:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

you've changed your attribution. it's still a misquote though, as per your partial quoting. you strip it of context to forward your own point. ITAQALLAH 15:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

In that case, Itaqallah, in your opinion based on context, what does it mean and what is its purpose on your talk page? -- Avi 15:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

it means that Muslims should a) have taqwa (the actual word used in the verse) and; b) die as Muslims. it's on my page as i find it an inspiration, and is one of the most well-known verses of the Qur'an, and it has never seemed inappropriate to quote from religious texts, as a large part of the Wikipedia community currently does. it's in Arabic because, as Pickthall and others opine, no translation can fully encapsulate the meaning of the Arabic itself. ITAQALLAH 16:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Itaqallah, why did you not quote the full verse? It says in addition: "Do not die except in a state of Islam". This means that Islam is a superior religion. I should then be allowed to say "Dont die in the state of Islam", so again - where does it end? --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 16:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

... please read my comment again. ITAQALLAH 16:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Saying that "one should die in a state of Islam" means campaining for Islam. This is not allowed on Wikipedia according to Jimbo Wales. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 16:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

(outdent)Any other admin's care to weigh in? -- Avi 18:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

meh, its a non-polemic statement of faith. If it said 'I wish non-muslims would die' or 'I wont work with jews' or 'I worship the grand wizard' or something, thats polemic. A non-offensive statement of faith is fine. Even embargo up there, I believe, would've been fine if he had just had a ubx that said 'I oppose the continued military prescence in the occupied territories'. No, he said he believes in islamic resistence and linked to hezbollah. Just think about these things people. "Will people go apeshit if I do this?" isnt that hard a question to ask yourself. -M^ask? 01:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The verse can only be taken as campaigning. If the word Mu'minun (the object of address) is taken to be "believer" (though I recently read a paper of Stillman who essentially disproves this), then the verse can be saying that all people who believe in God shouldn't die except in a state of Islam. That's proselytizing. Even if it means only Muslims shouldn't die except in a state of Islam, that's telling Muslims "don't leave Islam." It's campaigning no matter how you interpret it, and the presentation of this message in a foreign language is discomfiting. Arrow740 06:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Arrow, it doesn't matter what you think the verse means; all that matters is what Itaqallah thinks the verse means. And the way he interprets the verse, there is no campaigning. --Kirby♥time 06:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

What? Is he the only one seeing it? Further, as he interprets it, it means, excluding the "taqwa" issue that may be addressed in another place, "Muslims, die as Muslims." So, "Muslims, don't leave Islam." That is certainly campaigning. Arrow740 07:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. If a Userpage has a swastika, it is not provocative if the swastika in question is being used in the context of a Hindu religious symbol. If someone else interprets it to be a Nazi swastika, that sucks for them.--Kirby♥time 07:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

First I should say that not all swastikas should be acceptable. Second, you didn't bother to address the point I will now make for a third time, that itaqallah is at best telling Muslims "stay Muslim." That is campaiging. Arrow740 07:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not campaigning, that's Preaching to the choir. Campaigning means to go after people with uncertain convictions, while a "Muslim", by its very definition, has a certain conviction. I see his message as harmless as a Christian saying "Christians, believe in Jesus".--Kirby♥time 07:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

As a "former Muslim" you must have once been a Muslim with uncertain convictions. The message is (in his interpretation) directing Muslims to not change their religion before they die. It is more strident than your example. Arrow740 07:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment on the content, not the contributor. And I fail to see how being a bit more "strident" makes it unacceptable.--Kirby♥time 08:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that this issue even exists.

There is no question that Matt57's addition runs afoul of WP:POINT, though I doubt it was intended to disrupt thee encyclopedia. Matt57's quote, designed as it is to cast Islam in a negative light, is somewhat inflammatory, and should certainly stay removed. I take him at his word that he strongly feels that if positive representations of Islam are allowed, so should negative ones. There is a certain logic to this, but let's use common sense: someone saying their religion is right is not quite as inflammatory as saying your religion is wrong, even though the second is logically entailed by the first, because the second is overtly confrontational. I doubt that Matt57 meant to troll per se, but it has a similar effect.

User:Embargo is in an entirely different league; besides his overt antisemitism and paranoia, he is routinely uncivil and appears to be here mainly or only to troll; a Community Ban might be considered.

Now for the borderline case, Itaqallah's quote. The recent ArbCom ruling, "Editors are generally permitted to include in their userspace a limited amount of non-inflammatory personal expression not directly related to encyclopedic collaboration, including moderate declarations of POV." I belive this strongly disallows Embargo's behavior, weakly disallows Matt57's and allows Itaqallah's. This ruling appears to have been based upon WP:USER, which disallows "extensive personal opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia," as well as "polemical statements." However, there is a difference between "inflammatory" and "polemic." Polemic's Greek root means essentially "belligerent," but nowadays means argumentative, particularly about controversial topics; ArbCom's wording could have (and should have) been stronger. Still stronger is Jimbo's quote, "using userpages to...campaign for or against anything or anyone is a bad idea," but of course that only says it is a bad idea, not that it is disallowed. Itaqallah's quote is not inflammatory, might be construed as borderline polemical, and probably amounts to "campaigning for...anything." It is not disallowed, but it is a bad idea.

Like politics, religion is famously controversial, as it was when Itaqallah's quote was written, and remains so today. Banning all religious and political statements from userpages would discourage factionalization, protect users from being typecast and help us all get along. However, the community is not there yet; too many editors are invested in the notion of userpage as a platform for self-expression, and too many others fail to appreciate the degree to which this contributes to factionalization and battlegroundish behavior on talk space and in mainspace. Even when one edits fairly neutrally, declarations of partiality towards a subject one frequently edits creates the appearance of bias. Conversely, when people are asked to pretend that they are neutral, they will often wind up thinking more neutrally as a result.

To return to my original point, it's unfortunate that this issue even exists. It would be far simpler, and take so much less time for us all to parse, to simply ban all irrelevant opinions from userspace, for it shall be far easier for us to decide which viewpoints are irrelevant than which are unacceptable. I suppose I agree with Matt57 that clear and relatively objective rules are warranted. Barring that, we are doomed by our own hand to repeat these discussions again and again, arguing about what is or is not inflammatory, polemic, extensive, etc.Proabivouac 07:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree w/ Proabivouac on many points → (Itaqallah's quote is not inflammatory, might be construed as borderline polemical, and probably amounts to "campaigning for...anything." It is not disallowed, but it is a bad idea.) It is all about common sense. I must remind everyone that it was me who started this thread(s) and it was mainly because Embargo and Matt57 were making a point and provoking the community. Why? Embargo seems to be a Muslim having a Talmudic quote about pedastry in Judaism while Matt57, while being an atheist (as it is stated on his userpage) was quoting a hadith about the treatment of women in Islam.

Many users use the {{Torah_portion}} on their userpages. Is that inflammatory or provocative? NO! Why? Because they are Jewish and do not intend in any way to provoke anyone. So arguing about Itaqallah's Quranic verse is clearly a pointy argument. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 11:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

As Prov said, the simplest and best solution for this to have consistent and easy to follow rules: You either disallow everyone to have religious quotes, or allow them. Allowing them causes factionalization as Prov said - thats why Jimbo Wales said its a bad idea (becuase its campaining for Islam). If someone is going to praise Islam on their home page, that is inflammotory to me because Islam says I'll burn in Hell. I should have the freedom to say whatever I want to say about Islam too, if others are allowed. That verse was offensive to me because it said everyone should die in the state of Islam. If thats true, I should be allowed to say everyone should not die in the state of Islam. Both are equivalent statements; niether is more inflammotory than the other - thats the main point here. The only solution is to keep religious quotes and these kinds of separations out, otherwise the question will always be: What is allowed? And as Jimbo said and he was right: campaining is a bad idea. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 11:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Personally speaking, i'll be supporting the idea. However, you fail to understand Matt that your and Embargo's quotes were an intent to provoke others. As for Itaqallah's verse, as he explained, it was his inspiration as it is the case for many Jewish and Christian and other religious users as well as atheists. What i fail to understand is that why are you insisting on Islam while avoiding talking about how Judaism and Christianity view and consider atheists. Why Itaqallah in particular?! Isn't it your own POINT which i've been refering to since my first post above? -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 12:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

What the verse essentially says is that anyone that doesn't die as a Muslim will be punished and burn in hell. That anyone should see something like that as "inspirational" is pretty much beyond my comprehension, but of course anyone is free to choose. Anyway, what matters here is that I believe that users should be able to visit each others user space without having to be confronted with such unpleasant threats, and the problem is not only with Itaqallahs user page. BrandonYusufToropov's user page also "welcome" non-Muslim visitors with a threat about hellfire, and on his page it is written in plain English. I have no idea what his intention was when he added it, and perhaps it has indeed been very much inspirational to him, but I still believe that is more important that users can visit each others pages without being exposed to any such threats. -- Karl Meier 21:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I strongly support Karl Meier's removal of this material from User:BrandonYusufToropov's user page.[41] According to current policy, material which is religious in nature is neither specially forbidden nor specially protected; the relevant questions are whether the material is inflammatory, polemic, extensive or campaigning. This presence of this quote is naturally interpreted as promising other editors - and perhaps also wishing upon them - eternal torment, and is plainly (and literally) inflammatory and divisive. "Go to Hell" is an uncivil insult in any spirit; how much more so when it is said in all seriousness.Proabivouac 07:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

"What the verse essentially says is that anyone that doesn't die as a Muslim will be punished and burn in hell"- the problem with Karl's point here is that the verse doesn't say that at all, and so i call into question whether or not Karl is aware of precisely what verse is under discussion. ITAQALLAH 08:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

This was another divisive and campaining verse, a stronger one. We must remove all religious quotes. Faysal, my intent wasnt to provoke. Its simple: either everyone should be allowed to have verses or not. The intent is irrelevant. If Itaqallah and BYT wants to educate the public about some aspect of the Quran they want to show to everyone, I did exactly the same. We can end this matter by deciding to remove religious quotes from userpages like Itaqallah's and BYT, because again, that is campaining for an issue, in this case, Islam. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I too would simply like to see a uniform policy in regards to this situation. I got dragged into all of this because of Embargo's case, where he worked out a compromise with one admin, only to have another admin revoke that, as well as decline to apply the same standard to other users. Whether the ultimate decision is "no polemicals" or "some polemicals" or whatever, I just want to see something that is applied across the board. Tarc 13:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it is time to take this to Wikipedia talk:User page and discuss it. I believe that we've achieved somehow what this thread has requested. Now, we need to move forward and archiev this. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 13:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Another userpage has been introduced to the discussion,[42] so archiving is premature.Proabivouac 07:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Are users appearing in user categories disruptive and does it warrant a block?

SchmuckyTheCat (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks) continues to add his user page to Category:Wikipedians by religion, which was the subject of a discussion [43] at WP:UCFD a couple weeks ago. He was warned by User:jc37 on Apr 16. No comments supporting him appeared in a discussion at WT:USER that he started. Nevertheless, he added it again this afternoon [44]. I am inclined to block for 24 hours for disruption and acting against consensus, but I want to get some feedback first. A more gentle solution would be to protect the page until the user agrees not to make such edits. CMummert · talk 16:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Even though I did place the warning on the user's talk page, I'm hesitant to see a block yet for this. It's obvious that he's trying to make a WP:POINT using an attempt at humour, and "civil disobedience", of a sort... I honestly was hoping that the user would just make a red linked variation of the category, and "let it go". I'd like to suggest that you revert for now, and let's see from there. - jc37 17:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence that my reversion wouldn't just get undone, in which case we'll be right back to this page. What about reverting and protecting the page? CMummert · talk 17:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Civil disobedience? Looks to me like this is just about Jc37 asserting his authority, rather than any impact on the actual project. Milto LOL pia 17:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If SchmuckyTheCat disagrees with the UCFD decision, the correct thing to do is to find consensus to overturn it, rather than acting against it. I can't see any good reason why that category should have user pages in it, and "I want to" is not a very strong argument. CMummert · talk 17:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

There's no one who can name a way in which this disrupts the encyclopedia. Milto LOL pia 17:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course there is. That category is only meant to contain other categories - this is clear from trivial inspection and supported by UCFD. Adding user pages directly to it is clearly just making a point, and preventing the implementation of the UCFD consensus. As I said, the right way to remedy the UCFD decision is by discussion, not by intentionally counteracting it. CMummert · talk 17:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Who gave authority to UCFD to define the category? What notice did UCFD give to those who would be affected by its decisions? The answer is nobody and none. Consensus on their decision doesn't exist in the first place; consensus requires discussion, which requires notice. See also, smoke filled room. SchmuckyTheCat 17:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I hate to keep being nosy, but what point is he making by having that category on there? And how does one "disrupt" a user category when they don't even add anything to Wikipedia anyway? But mostly I want to know what point he's making. Milto LOL pia 17:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The point is "I have the ability to add my user page to this category even though there is strong evidence that others find this inappropriate." CMummert · talk 17:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

POINT requires disruption. When did the disruption occur - when I put in the category two years ago, or when you removed it based on your own ideal of what the category should contain? SchmuckyTheCat 17:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus or guideline that says a group of users discussing in an obscure location, who do not give any notice to anyone else about their discussion, have any authority to organize user categories according to their whim. User categories are by extension of WP:USER, a rather informal method by which users may choose to describe themselves. I've been in that category for nearly two years. No notice was put on the category that it was under discussion. No notice was placed on my talk page making me aware of the discussion. The WP:POINT disruption is with those who wish to edit other people's user pages based on their whim - again, without any guideline or consensus.

There is an entire encyclopedia to write, and yet we have this group of editors making decisions about other editors user pages. User pages are the only place we allow users free expression, short of being polemic. I'm not doing anything polemic. It's not confusing anyone. Some members of those making decisions have made no namespace edits in weeks, focusing solely on their fixation on other people's user pages.

What's more disruptive to the community - harmless, silly, expression in user space, or coming down draconian and dictating against it? And remember, there isn't any wide community consensus or guideline behind it.

SchmuckyTheCat 17:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Commenting on the line: "User pages are the only place we allow users free expression". You are aware of WP:NOT#USER, right? AQu01rius (User &#149; Talk) 17:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. That is a paraphrase of WP:USER. By free expression, I mean user pages don't have to be NPOV (while avoiding being polemic), don't have to conform to a prescribed MOS, etc. I know very well what the "What can I not have on my user page?" section says about categories because I wrote it [45]. Even after revision, it still says nothing that gives authority to other users to unilaterally decide whether users belong in certain categories. SchmuckyTheCat 17:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Jc is asserting the "authority" of the "Categories for discussion" process, which is discussed by more users than him. The category has been depopulated because userpages in it make no sense: The users are listed "by religion," which suggests specificity of religion, which is what the subcats are for. We depopulated all the categories of "Wikipedians by (X)", so no individual user pages should go there. I wouldn't argue for a block (this isn't vandalism), but protecting the page seems okay if the user doesn't feel like going through the process of getting the decision overturned, which is obvious how to do. If there's a mistake made, it will be corrected through the normal process, or not, depending on the will of the community.--Mike Selinker 17:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

User Categories for Discussion process has no authority to go beyond guidelines and consensus. Defining user categories and threatening to ban users and protect their pages from themselves for not complying with that definition exceeds any guideline or consensus. It's positively draconian. Your admin tools have better work to do than trying to fit square pegs into round holes. SchmuckyTheCat 19:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually "user categories" are defined by policy/guideline. They are specifically to be sub-cats of Category:Wikipedians. As to "better work to do", how any Wikipedian chooses to contribute to the project is up to them. And I'll avoid the many obvious puns about currently dealing with a square peg : ) - jc37 19:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

So user-cats are supposed to be sub-categories of the top category. Fine and excellent. That has nothing to do with your banning threat to me.

You're right, I don't care how you contribute your time. I care when your volunteer effort intrudes on mine. If you want to obsessively organize user categories go ahead, until someone objects because that is where it ends. SchmuckyTheCat 20:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is serious doubt that CFD decisions should be honored by all editors; UCFD is the place that CFD discussions for user categories are carried out. CMummert · talk 21:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

There is doubt when some sub-sub-sub-discussion of users exceeeds the consensus and guidelines that they operate under. UCFD isn't CfD. CfD is the public face of the project containing articles of the encyclopedia. It's the stuff people come here to read. It's the stuff that will be on hardcopy, DVD, v1.0, etc versions of Wikipedia. There are different standards for the main project and user space. Period.

I was the nominator of the UCFD, and I normally do tag categories and notify the original creator if the category is up for merging, deletion, or renaming, but in this case it was simply for depopulating, and we don't have a tag to place at the top of pages for such discussions. Asking me to notify every user in the category is absolutely ludicrous, there are some categories that have thousands of users in them, and we never do that for any other nominations at UCFD. Now to the point, re-adding yourself to this category after a consensus has been reached on xfd not to should be considered disruptive and I'd support a block if it continues. If you think the decision should be overturned, get a consensus to do so. The UCFD was unanimous and I really don't see why you insist adding your page to the category, it doesn't make sense at all, which is why the nomination was done in the first place. VegaDark 23:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You scare me in your fervor to block people who disagree with anything that you disagree with in user space. Really, you scare me. SchmuckyTheCat 01:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You have an interesting way of interpreting things if you take what I said above as a "fervor" to block people for "anything that I disagree with". Mentioning that I'd support a block for disruption = "fervor"? Block someone for repeatedly going against a unanimous consensus of an xfd debate = "block people for anything I disagree with"? Please stay civil, I don't appreciate false accusations against me. VegaDark 02:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no consensus without involving, or notifying, anyone but a small clique of users gauranteed to mirror your views. The authority behind the result of a discussion can't violate the wider consensus under which the discussion occurs (WP:USER). In this case, no consensus exists that UCFD decisions are binding, and especially not block worthy. And yes, I used fervor after reviewing your contributions. UCFD is all you've done for weeks and your talk page comments go way beyond reasonable in your willingness to disrupt other users pages. SchmuckyTheCat 03:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

So now you are accusing me of disruption? This is getting ridiculous, I see there is no point in trying to have a discussion with you if you are going to assert that all UCFD decisions don't have to be followed based on not liking the result. I'd like to hear what others have to say about that. VegaDark 07:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you've said in talk pages that you think you should delete non-offensive, user page content without any discussion with the users. That is disruptive. SchmuckyTheCat 17:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm assuming you are talking about me supporting removing redlinked categories from userpages? Yes, I support that. No, I don't support doing that without a consensus. I was expressing my opinion on what should be done. If you consider expressing a (quite reasonable, we do it in mainspace) opinion on a wikipedia issue "disruptive" then I'd hate to see what else you also consider disruptive. VegaDark 06:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

In light of the comments above, it seems reasonable to protect the user page, rather than block the user, if the category is not removed in a reasonable period of time. CMummert · talk 02:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe that you or anyone involved in this matter should protect the page. WP:PROT: "admins should not protect pages when they are involved as a party to the dispute". Further, the protection policy outlines only one applicable reason that this page could be protected: to temporarily halt edit warring. And assuming someone does begin edit warring on User:SchmuckyTheCat, such a page protect would not be done to endorse any particular version of the page, and the discussion would continue, so simply from a tactical perspective, that is not a viable route toward your goal. As to blocking, I would ask everyone to consider how sure they are that a block, for what is ostensibly disruption, would not be overturned at WP:CSN (I'm fairly sure that it would). — coelacan — 06:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It's unrealistic to suggest that because I have posted to AN/I before taking action, I am now prevented from doing so. Several other admins (all the ones who have commented except possibly you) support either protecting the page or blocking SchmuckyTheCat, so I would not be acting unilaterally. There has been edit warring, as STC has added back the tag several times after it was removed by another editor.

Let's move the discussion forward. I am taking it as a given, despite SchmuckyTheCat's claims, that UCFD does have community consensus as a process. How would you recommend that the UCFD decision to depopulate the category be enforced in this case? CMummert · talk

Perhaps you should not take that as a given. I note that with the exception of you and I, the only admins who have bothered to give input here are those who close UCFD discussions, who presumably think that the process is important. I don't know exactly what brought you to STC's case, but I'm here because I take a general interest in users' pages. And most "user page is disruptive" cases involve something that is broadly seen as disruptive. Generally that involves polemical statements against a group of people, and indeed I can't think of any case in quite a while that did not (months ago, Jeffpw was asked to remove his then very large picture of Hillary Clinton, and that ANI discussion was an absolute circus, with many people expressing incredulity at the idea that someone thought this important). Now, there was one other admin not involved in UCFD who gave input about STC: Isotope23, who just said at WT:USER#Enforcement of WP:USER, "I don't particularly agree with the way this is being handled by the other editor involved here." The other editor is you, right? (If not then I'm unaware of who else is involved. I haven't been aware of this until you brought it to ANI.) It really does not appear to me that you have any widespread support to use admin tools on this. Maybe a bunch of other uninvolved people are going to show up and tell me that I'm wrong, but this appears to be a case of very narrow interest, which implies to me that the page is not disruptive. If you're going to go outside the usual boundaries of the protection policy, or if you're going to block STC, then you're going to have to make a pretty convincing case that this page's categorization is disruptive to those of us who are trying to write an encyclopedia. Disruption is usually obvious to many people; this is not. Can you quantify the supposed disruption here? — coelacan — 14:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe he became involved in the WT:USER discussion that STC started. - jc37 15:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

No, the "other editor" was jc37. That comment was made before I even edited the page. The substance of the comment was that the discussion ought to be at ANI, which is one reason that I brought it here. It's hard for me to see how responding to STC's question after the UCFD was over makes me "involved" in it. CMummert · talk 17:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

All right, I had a vague misunderstanding earlier that I probably couldn't accurately describe now. You're sufficiently uninvolved, I agree. Which would allow for use of admin tools if you could make a case for disruption. So, can you quantify the supposed disruption here? — coelacan — 19:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

While it appears likely that another edit to implement a unanimous UCfD decision will be reverted by the user, it'd be ABF to make that assumption. If, however, the userpage is corrected for its violation of USERCAT rules, and then reverted without going through the proper channels (i.e., DRV), then the user should be warned for edit warring, and the page protected by an uninvolved admin. Xiner (talk) 13:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Would you be willing to remove it? CMummert · talk 14:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

With much love to my friend Xiner, I have to note that regular UCFD admins are hardly "uninvolved". — coelacan — 14:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Apparently I was writing my comments below while you added this. (I'm surprised there was no edit conflict.) Anyway, I am wondering at your interpretation of how being involved in a process means that a person's "involved" in a dispute? - jc37 15:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

UCFD is an small and insular process that most of the community does not bother to get involved with. As such, the few admins who decide to involve themselves there have a vested interest in maintaining UCFD's ability to make and enforce decisions. This is not a judgment upon any of you; I like all of you. This is an acknowledgement of your humanity, and it is a feature of human behavior to stake out territory. We all have an interest in fighting vandalism, thus we all encourage each other to do so. If an admin who does not close UCFD discussions were to come along and use admin tools to enforce UCFD discussions, then that would be an outside acknowledgement of those discussions' legitimacy. But if no outside admin steps up to do so, well... — coelacan — 17:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, I have never participated in UCFD. So I looked into it when this issue came up. I saw that there is a link from CFD to UCFD, along with directions to take user category requests there. I looked at the history, and the link from CFD to UCFD has been there for a long time. So it appears to me that UCFD does have community consensus to make decisions about user categories, and I am an "outside admin" as you describe. I have no objection to using admin tools to enfore UCFD decisions when it is necessary, which is why I started this thread. But it shouldn't be necessary, especially not in this case. CMummert · talk 17:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Comma, pause, arbitrary section break

I think it's odd the way that this has "moved forward". There is an established process to determine consensus. An editor (me) was going through the minor tasks of following through with the results of that consensus. Another editor, who in the past has chosen freely to be a part of that page's discussion now states that the discussions on that page have no validity.

And further, the suggestion that, since there is a discussion on this page, admins can't take action based on an AN/I discussion because they're involved in that discussion? That would be like saying that by reverting a vandal twice, and then discuss it on AN/I, perhaps for clarification, then means that you can't then block the vandal... (Not that I'm saying STC is a vandal, just using that for example). That seems entirely contrary to the "Wiki-way", in which we often and do ask for advice and help from others.

It also should be noted is that the user makes it clear at Wikipedia talk:User page#Enforcement of WP:USER: "Any perusal of my user page shows that I parody other user pages. My categories are red-links, I have one single joke userbox, instead of barnstars I repost insults and vandalism." - So the things added to their userpage are not accurate. Which, while perhaps tongue-in-cheek humourous, it is clearly contrary to WP:USER#Inappropriate content as well. (Perhaps MfD is the way to go to deal with the larger issues of the user page in question, though on that, I am not certain.) However, I do find the last comment in that section particlularly interesting in relation to this discussion. Oh, and obviously at least one of the user categories is not a red-link, else we might not be having this discussion...

If STC has issues with the process, fine, there are channels for that, but in the meantime, I believe that this is a case of m:The wrong version. As it stands right now, there has been a consensual discussion, and the category is to be removed per that discussion. If STC wishes to take this to WP:DRV, fine, but right now, the user is merely engaging in, first, edit warring, and second, gaming the system. (If in doubt of the latter, read this page, and the user's talk page. And also note that right now there is a discussion to MfD WP:UCFD in direct opposition to this discussion. "Gaming the rules", indeed.)

As such, I'm going to remove the category from the user page due to the original WP:UCFD discussion, and because there is nothing above showing that it should remain. As I noted on the user's talk page, from going through the user's contribution history, one thing is rather clear, this isn't a case where the user is unaware of policy and guidelines. I am going to give User:SchmuckyTheCat the benefit of the doubt despite the above discussion, and presume that the user will follow process rather than this continued disruption. I don't oppose the page being protected, but unless the user continues to revert, I at least won't protect it. Further comments are, of course, welcome. - jc37 15:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would assume good faith on my part. I asked SchmuckyTheCat for that user's opinion on an MFD of UCFD because I saw this discussion, but I've been planning to make that MFD for quite some time. I did not know any of the backstory to SchmuckyTheCat's page, and had I known, I wouldn't have mentioned MFD to that user. I should have known someone was going to conflate these two issues. They should not be conflated; my desire to tag UCFD as {{historical}} stems not at all from SchmuckyTheCat's issue. I will not be making an MFD nomination, nor will I be airing my general concerns at WT:UCFD, while SchmuckyTheCat's page is an open issue. I want to keep these issues separate. Since you knew already from reading my comments that I want to keep any possible MFD discussion free of drama, jc37, I cannot imagine why you would now fire the first drama bullet. Can we please take a step back to the time before I was "gaming the system"? — coelacan — 17:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You misread my intention in what I said about the MfD, but I'll presume that the fault was mine for not being clearer, and apologise. You and I discussed taking it to talk pages rather than MfD, so I was aware of your "good faith" in this, so sorry that that wasn't more clear. And I agree, the question about whether WP:UCFD should be remerged to WP:CFD is immaterial to this discussion. I might point others to the bright banner at the top of WP:CFD in response to questions of "hidden". In a nutshell: User:SchmuckyTheCat has normal process options to voice their concerns. The rest of the complaint is, just as you have called it: Drama. I note in the checkuser link at the top that the user is a member of (and apparently an admin of) Encyclopedia Dramatica. I make no other comment about it than to note it as interesting at least to me. - jc37 17:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, jc37, I'm relieved to hear that I just misunderstood you. — coelacan — 19:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• There is an established process to determine consensus.

And it wasn't followed. No notice was given to anyone. It's not like UCFD is widely followed, it has a core group of people who make and close all the decisions. Without notice, and without broad participation, you can't say consensus was gained. You can only say you followed your own processes. Where your processes exceed existing Wikipedia guidelines (which do have wide consensus, and should be instructive on how UCFD makes decisions) you DO NOT have consensus to enforce UCFD decisions.

• So the things added to their userpage are not accurate.

And? User pages don't have to be accurate. After the Essjay thing and Jimbo's credential proposal I toned down even the factual things because I don't want anything from my main user page taken as truth or semblance of authority while writing the encyclopedia. If you think parody and humor on my user page matches inappropriate content per WP:USER you've really been living in UCFD for too long. Why don't you leave UCFD and build the encyclopedia for awhile? You seem a little too devoted to witch-hunting user pages you don't like.

I've never had any meaningful participation in UCFD. It is, literally, its own little committee doing its own little thing.

The controlling sentence for removal is "if user page activity becomes disruptive to the community or gets in the way of the task of building an encyclopedia, it must be modified to prevent disruption." And you cannot say my user page does that. A committee that goes out its way to hunt down and find things they disagree with on user pages is disruptive to community building and THAT is what is disruptive to encyclopedia building. This was on my user page for two years - you had to go on a witch hunt based on your own ideals to purposefully decide to disrupt my page. That is where and when the disruption occurred. You are standing POINT and USER on their heads if you claim it is my deciding that non-offensive, non-polemic, non-disruptive content can be on my user page. SchmuckyTheCat 17:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

All of this has been responded to above several times, by several people. If you have further concerns or complaints about an XfD closure, please take it to WP:DRV. It says rather clearly at the top of this page that:"this is not the Wikipedia complaints department." - jc37 17:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't be obnoxious. You're the one who brought this worthless complaint to ANI in the first place, at no benefit to any encyclopedic matter. Just let it go, jc37, and find something marginally useful to do. Milto LOL pia 17:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you look again. I didn't start this thread. The Wikipedian who did, was asking for insight from other admins, which I presume is the appropriate use of this board. My first post was to suggest that STC not be blocked. However, User:SchmuckyTheCat's subsequent posts above are complaints. I offer the same suggestion to you as well: "This isn't the complaints department". If you have further concerns, please take them to WP:DRV. - jc37 18:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that's a fair analysis. CMummert begins the thread by requesting input on a proposed use of admin tools, and SchmuckyTheCat responds that there is no disruption, hence no policy-based use for the tools. The question of what is the disruption is thus pertinent to the purpose of this board and quite on topic for this thread. — coelacan — 19:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Coelacan. These are user categories we're talking about. They're not even part of the encyclopedia. How is the encyclopedia hurt by whether or not user categories conform to somebody's standards? I think those bugging SchmuckyTheCat about this category should let it be and worry about something else. Why would anybody care if he's in a meaningless user category? -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The fact that these categories exist means that the people who use them believe they are not meaningless. And arguments of the form "why don't you find something better to do with your time" are hardly persuasive - I could equally well ask "Why doesn't SchmuckyTheCat find something better to do with his time than edit war to put his user page into inappropriate categories? They are meaningless anyway." And it would be equally unpersuasive for me to do so.

In order to work with a large group of others, it is necessary not to be involved in all the decision making. I don't participate at UCFD, because I prefer to do other things, but I would never claim that this means that I am free to ignore the decisions that are made there simply because I chose not to participate in making them. This is no different than AFD, or RFA, or any of the many other areas where a limited number of users make decisions on behalf of the entire community. CMummert · talk 02:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Delegating decisions is fine. But, those decisions are correctly ignored when they go against prevailing consensus. And they are ignored when they don't bother telling anyone about the discussion. Both of these are true in this case. UCFD is a process without a purpose. SchmuckyTheCat 03:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, if you think the UCFD is invalid, why don't you bring it to DRV? You keep insisting it was invalid but you won't even go through the proper channels to try and reverse it. VegaDark 06:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The title of this section is "Are users appearing in user categories disruptive and does it warrant a block?" If you are not going to use administrative tools to enforce this, then that's great. But if the option of blocking STC is still on the table, then it's reasonable for this discussion to continue. I see that SchmuckyTheCat has not reverted the removal of the category, but if that user does, the original question, "is this disruptive and does it warrant a block" would still be open. I think the answer is obviously "no", but some admins seem to be leaving open the possibility of a block. I hope this will be the last that I say about SchmuckyTheCat's particular issue. Admins should consider whether or not it is likely that a block would be overturned at a WP:CSN discussion. I believe it would, and in the end it would reflect poorly upon the judgment of whomever would stretch the definition of "disruption" so far and so thin. This is not a Nazi flag flying over the state of Israel. — coelacan — 08:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If he can not be blocked for this (I'm not saying he should now, but if he continues to re-add the category I would be open to the possibility), then UCFD decisions would not be enforceable. If someone repeatedly added a category that was deleted via CFD to a page, they would eventually be blocked (if all other measures failed to work first). If someone repeatedly re-created an article deleted via AfD, they would be blocked. If someone repeatedly went against an MfD consensus, they would be blocked. If someone repeatedly went against an RfD consensus, they would be blocked. But if someone repeatedly goes against a UCFD consensus, you are saying nothing should happen, simply because it is in the userspace? If that were the case then there would be no point to even having a UCFD (which is why I take it you plan on nominating it for MfD-doubt it will succeed but feel free to try). But, we do have a UCFD, which tells me that decisions made there need to be enforceable, which means if necessary a block may be justified. If he is allowed to keep re-adding the category to his page without reprocussions, then everybody might as well stop contributing to UCFD, as anything decided there wouldn't matter. VegaDark 10:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

This is my opinion as well - a block could be warranted, but other measures (including discussion. and possibly protecting the page) should be tried first. But it should be restated that user categories are in the category namespace, not the user namespace, and the disputed content is the link in the category listing page, not the link on the user's individual page. If the user can put a link on their own page without affecting the category listing, that is completely acceptable. CMummert · talk 11:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

VegaDark, you say "we do have a UCFD, which tells me that decisions made there need to be enforceable". I disagree with that step of logic. The only reason to have any kind of "rule" on this website is to benefit the encyclopedia. As I've said already in this conversation, making rules about how others may use user categories is even further removed from our project than using those categories in the first place. To block Schmucky for messing up some unencyclopedic user category game would be to suggest that playing such a game is an appropriate use of Wikipedia resources. That's the part I'm not seeing. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If you disagree with that logic, then for what purpose do we have a UCFD? You are saying that UCFD decisions should not be enforcable, and hence useless? VegaDark 20:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Why do we have a UCFD? I'm pretty sure it was created to relieve CFD of hosting discussions on user categories. People who thought it would be a good idea to have a UCFD set it up, and have been running it... right? Nobody ever vested them with any kind of official power, and their decisions don't carry the weight of policy. If we're talking about encyclopedic user categories (like Babel categories), I can see an argument that their misuse is disruptive, but we're not talking about those. I don't know why anybody thinks they have authority to dictate how others participate in unencyclopedic activities unless they're disrupting or damaging the project somehow.

To turn the question around, what gives UCFD the authority to tell people how to use unencyclopedic categories? As far as I know, nobody has any authority here to do anything that doesn't flow from the mandate to build the encyclopedia. You can do unencyclopedic stuff, but when you start telling others how to do unencyclopedic stuff, you're walked off the edge of your authority. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I thoughts I'd clarify what apparently is misdirection, or at least a misconception. "People who thought it would be a good idea to have a UCFD set it up, and have been running it... right?" - Wrong. First, the Wikipedian community is "contributing" to it, no one is "running" anything. But to respond to the intent of the statement: Wrong again. Mike Selinker and I actually opposed the separation of WP:UCFD from WP:CFD (with concerns that fewer people would be commenting there), and VegaDark and Xiner (among others) weren't admins when it was started. However, since then, the WP:CFD page has been refactored, and WP:UCFD (along with Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion, is now listed right with the daily CfD discussion links (which are no longer transcluded to the WP:CFD page). And since then (actually before then) we've seen an influx of contributors, with dicussions roughly the same size as seen in a typical WP:CfD discussion. Not to mention (what I already mentioned) the bright banner at the top of the WP:CFD page informing about the WP:UCFD discussion page. Even [[User:SchmuckyTheCat has been a contibutor there. (22 edits between 12/09/2006 02:27 and 04/21/2007 01:53). And GTBaccus, 9 contributions between 09/20/2006 19:49 and 11/06/2006 21:10. And there have been 451 unique editors with 12 IP addresses. So much for claims of it being someone's personal Idaho... - jc37 09:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

CMummert, you're right. It's equally valid to ask Schmucky why he spends time on this. Schmucky, is this actually worth arguing over? I dunno; maybe it is. The thing is, I tend to the view that it's usually better to let people do as they like, unless it's somehow affecting the encyclopedia. I'm open to hearing how Schmucky putting himself in an inappropriate user category makes the encyclopedia any worse, but it's not obvious to me. What, will people will be confused by it? It's not anywhere near article-space, so... why care?

We generally allow a wide latitude in user space, but we also generally like to use user categories for purposes that are at least vaguely encyclopedic. I'd be happy enough if the whole category and all the subcategories were deleted. Look, here we are, caught up in the disruption these things bring about, and what has any of it got to do with building the encyclopedia? Nothing that I can see.

If we're keeping unencyclopedic user categories around, I see no reason not to let people do what they want with them, within the bounds of WP:USER. Making rules about which unencyclopedic user categories others can and can't put themselves into is even further removed from the project than using those categories in the first place. -GTBacchus^(talk) 09:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't subscribe to or read any of those categories. But I think that a large number of community members do feel they are useful, and I don't think that it would be easy to find consensus to delete them. In order for the categories to remain useful (to the extent that they are), everyone has to respect their clear intent. Moreover, user categories are in the category namespace, not in the user namespace. I feel this is a significant point and appeals to WP:USER are misguided. User pages are, by their nature, individual. User categories are communal and can only function if everyone uses them correctly. (If I wanted to be more lawyerlike, I would point out that the list of "what is your user space" at the top of WP:USER does not include user categories. But I think the distinction between individual and communal here is clear enough.) CMummert · talk 11:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

CMummert, you say, "in order for the categories to remain useful, everyone has to respect their clear intent". This seems to suggest that Schmucky's action is making some user category less useful? How exactly is that happening? Is he preventing users from being able to find each other? Where's the damage? Are the categories actually prevented from functioning by what Schmucky's doing? As for "user cateogories" not being included under "what is in your userspace" at WP:USER, I could just as easily point out that "other unencyclopedic content" is listed under "what you may not have in your user space". Are any of the categories in question encyclopedic?

I repeat: making rules about what other users can and can't do with user categories is even further removed from our project than using those categories in the first place. Unless you can tell me how these categories benefit the encyclopedia, I'm going to go ahead and not care if Schmucky uses them however he wants to. No harm to the project; no foul. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that "not encyclopedic" is a common argument in deletion debates about these categories (from scanning UCFD in the last two days), so my guess is that the categories are "encyclopedic" under whatever the prevailing meaning of that term is at UCFD. I think the standard argument is that the categories benefit the encyclopedia by encouraging collaboration.

Yes, Schmucky's userpage being listed in categories where it doesn't belong makes them less useful. The opinion "I can do whatever I like with user categories", if left unchecked, would lead to them being useless for their purpose of categorization. Moreover, there was a unanimous UCFD decision that agreed to remove all user pages from the category in question, and acting against consensus is disruptive by defintion. CMummert · talk 20:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Consensus only derives its authority from its support to the encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not an exercise in consensus governance. I'm aware of the line that categorizing users by religion encourages collaboration, but it's nonsense. WikiProjects encourage collaboration; user categories encourage identification of oneself along partisan lines. That's why one's called a "project" and the other's called a "category".

Finally, if the prevailing attitude in UCFD is that these categories are "encyclopedic", that's a pretty good indication of how far the walled garden of UCFD is from the reality of Wikipedia. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I missed one point - you make a slippery slope argument, that such category abuse left unchecked will lead to rampant abuse, and a decline in so-called usfulness. I see no evidence of that. I think most people who use user categories use them to categorize themselves because they enjoy categorizing themselves. The proportion of people using them to make little jokes is going to be negligible; at least, that's what my impressions of Wikipedia's demographic tell me. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

(unindenting a bit) To GTBacchus: Yes, it's worth arguing over. My issue is a single tree in a big forest. The forest is that a small minority of editors is attempting to lord authority over hundreds of others, mostly based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. That is a a serious problem. It is the exact opposite of consensus and drives away users. It's anti-wiki, power for the sake of having power.

To CMummert, this is based on this last entry of yours, and one above a bit. WP:UCFD was driven out of WP:CFD because the users that cared about mainspace were sick of it, not because it has consensus to perform the actions they are doing now. It was created out of spite to get the UCFD busy-bodies out of the serious work of mainspace category discussion. A guideline was proposed, Wikipedia:Guidelines for user categories, which now has the red X for rejected, as it never gained any consensus.

User categories being in [[:Category:]] is a red-herring. User categories were driven out of CfD because they are fundamentally different than mainspace categories. User categories won't be in Wikipedia 1.0, hardcopy versions of Wikipedia, or CD/DVD versions. They do not appear on articles, and they are entirely separate tree of categories from articles. They only exist to serve users, however users see fit. SchmuckyTheCat 16:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Schmucky, you suggest that users exercising arbitrary power over others in user categories drives away users... I guess I can see that, but I'm not sure I really care about users who think that it's appropriate to spend their time on Wikipedia messing around with unencyclopedic user categories in the first place. Direct question: how do these benefit the encyclopedia? -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Amended, per the rudeness of my earlier statement. Schmucky, I'm sorry; that was inappropriate, what I said. I know you to be a good Wikipedian, and I certainly do care whether or not you are able to enjoy your experience here. Please accept my retraction. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

GTBacchus, I think you'll find that many of our best contributors use these unencyclopedic user categories. I'm not going to tell you who to look for, but think of some of the editors you consider top-notch contributors here and go look at the bottoms of their user pages. If you're going to propose the elimination of all user categories in one fell swoop, that's a fair discussion to have (I would oppose it, but it would be fair). But as it is currently, all these decisions seem arbitrary, and arbitrary feels unfair, and unfair drives away otherwise good editors, newbies and regulars alike. Everyone who's used Wikipedia for more than a month has seen User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me. That user is in Category:Wikipedians who fear clowns. Anyone looking at CSCWEM's userpage realizes that it's okay to use unencyclopedic user categories. But then their Category:Drug-free Wikipedians or Category:Fishless Wikipedians are suddenly and inexplicably deleted and removed from their userpage. It's unfair, and continually upsetting since no one is informed ahead of time that they need to give arguments for keeping the categories they reside in.

But! The real problem lies in the logical fallacy you've presented with "I'm not sure I really care about users who think that it's appropriate to spend their time on Wikipedia messing around with unencyclopedic user categories in the first place." This supposes that there are two non-intersecting kinds of Wikipedians: those who build the encyclopedia, and those who use unencyclopedic user categories. The fact is that there is a nearly 100% overlap. I have threatened to block users who edit only their userpages and do not contribute to the encyclopedia, and I will follow through on that threat if it's ever necessary. But otherwise productive users are not obliged to spend all of their time here in the mainspace. If a handful of "clever" or "cute" user categories boosts someone's enjoyment and morale, then what's the harm in it? If it makes them want to come back to Wikipedia, then they make more encyclopedic contributions and we all benefit. (Workplace studies show this is true, which is why employees are allowed to decorate their offices and cubicles.)

It's not just a neoliberal economic dictum: when you micromanage what people should and should not do to achieve their goals, you very often end up retarding their potential to work toward those goals. We can always get rid of blatantly offensive user categories by speedy deletion and those concerns can always be raised at ANI like they are for Nazi flags flying over the state of Israel. Outright disruption does inhibit the encyclopedia. But aside from polemic, it's very hard to know whether a particular category benefits the encyclopedia or not. Whenever possible, we should assume good faith on the part of the invisible hand, and be laissez-faire about this sort of thing. Your, or UCFD's, micromanaging judgments about what is and is not beneficial are as likely as not to be wrong, and often, unnecessarily stripping away a bit of fun is most certainly detrimental to the encyclopedia. Are we paid to be here? I'm not. I'm a volunteer. I'd rather not work in a barren cubicle. From time to time I'd like to have a giant picture of Jefferson on my user page and I normally categorize my page in Category:Wikipedians who love cats. Silly? Yep. Unencyclopedic? Sure. But a lot of people seem to think that I'm doing good work here anyway. So let's not pretend that we shouldn't care about editors who are using unencyclopedic user categories. Nobody is only doing that, and if they are, I'll personally block them. For the rest of us, live and let live. Otherwise you might as well blank all userpages or insist that they only carry quicklinks to policy pages and the new issue of the Signpost. — coelacan — 21:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Lest that last paragraph imply that you really only care about Wikipedians who don't use user categories, I do realize you weren't exactly saying that. Sorry if I'm flagrantly off-target there. — coelacan — 22:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Coelacan, you're right to call me out on my careless statement about not caring whether contributors are driven away. That was unfair, as you explain, and intemperate, and furthermore, it's not what I really think. Thanks for making sure I noticed my error.

Regarding your point, though, I'm not micromanaging anything. I'm not doing anything. I'm one person, stating opinions. I'm certainly not going to block anybody, or use any of my buttons to enforce my opinions that I know aren't shared by a consensus. However, I'm going to state my opinions aloud, because I have to do what I think is best for Wikipedia.

I'm not suggesting that people not be allowed to have user categories, or that they all be deleted without community consent. I would be happy if we voluntartily gave up certain of them, which are damaging, but "users who fear clowns" and "users who love cats" aren't divisive. (Unless perhaps you're a clown, or a mouse...)

As for your "live and let live" argument, you'll note that I'm arguing for precisely the same thing. I'm just pointing out that the unencyclopedic nature of certain user categories is precisely why no other user has authority to dictate how they're used. I don't have that authority, and neither does UCFD. I'm sorry if I was unclear on that point. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if you think I would want userpages to be blank and without creative content, then I really misrepresented myself. The best user pages I've seen here are extremely creative, interesting, expressive, full of personality... and yet, lacking anything that would be taken as flag-waving for some political or religious faction. That's the only thing I've got against the category we're currently talking about. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Raul654's failure to assume good faith for good-faithed edits

I'm here to raise my concern with Raul654's behavior as of late. Most of this has to do with his failure to assume good faith for good-faithed editors, such as myself (and probably others).[46] Also are the personal attacks he has resorted to.[47] While, of course, this is a result of his recent incivility and disruptive editing[48] and subsequent block[49], this is no new problem that he has had. His actions with respect to his status within the Wikipedia community should be questioned. ~ UBeR 19:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not find that there is any concern with Raul654's behavior as of late, or at any earlier time. He understands his business well, and is able to understand and implement the spirit of all the instruction creep. We can not run the wikipedia by making it look and sound like court deliberations. Certain decisions are always required to be taken very promptly to protect the integrity of wikipedia, and good faith does not mean a license to do whatever one may desire to do here! Perhaps, final rule is to IAR and move forward to protect and value add to the project. --Bhadani (talk) 20:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Raul654 is one of the most trusted people on Wikipedia. He is not only an admin, but a bureaucrat and an arbitrator, and has Oversight privileges. You're going to have to go some to get him removed from those important, and well-earned, positions. Corvus cornix 21:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Uber has been a problem user on Wikipedia since about 5 minutes after he got here. He's previously been warned for it, both on his user page and on this noticeboard. His edits to the global warming article have been detrimental, and then have been done in conjunction with a cadre of other users who share his anti-science POV. Using tactics I've outlined here, they repeatedly attempt to whitewash the article, water down the science, and play up the skepticism. While giving lots of lip-service to good faith and a desire not to revert war, they do exactly that in spades. Uber himself has been warned about this repeatedly: [50][51][52][53] Or, to put it a bit different, "This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary." - Wikipedia:Assume good faith In short - Uber's privilege to edit Wikipedia deserves re-examination. I think a community-ban is in order. Raul654 20:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

This is yet a further example of how Raul654 is perniciously attacking me, and in a very deceitful and ignorant manner. Raul654 is wrong on many factors. For example, his report of "incidence" against my "trolling" was without foundation, despite repeated request for evidence of any such behavior on my behalf. Needless to say, this was not forthcoming. Next is his attempt to demonstrate my "detrimental" and "repeated attempts to whitewash" the global warming article, while having "been warned about this repeatedly." But lets look at his examples (none of which demonstrate any such behavior) he provided: Skyemoor's contribution to the FAR. The edits that this user provides were found to be in accordance with the consensus of the editors of that article, brought about through discussion on my behalf. Of course, Raul654's involvement in actual discussion to amend that article are nonexistent, and instead he chooses to assume bad faith for every edit I make, despite near unanimous agreement among those who actually choose to involve themselves in discussion, rather than disruptive revert wars. So thus it appears Skyemoor's edits were the ones that were contentious, and is a further demonstration of bad faith in my contributions, which have overwhelmingly been beneficial to that article. Of course, then, is YFB's innocent inquiry on my talk page. He came to me asking about a specific edit I made, and I replied with my response and reasoning. He, nor anyone else (save, maybe, Raul654), disagrees with me regarding that edit. So what Raul654 was trying to demonstrate with that example, I do not know. Third is Mr. Salsman's unfounded and retracted attack on me. He believed I unfairly deleted content, but of course I did no such thing. Perhaps this is why Mr. Salsman withdrew his comments?[54] Of course, Raul654 wouldn't like that to be mentioned. (Also note Mr. Salsman is now banned from editing that article for a period of three months.) Last, then, was Dmcdevit's discussion on my talk page. I'll leave this one for the reader to interpret.

So I believe it's quite obvious Raul654's sentiments based purely on personal feelings and misguided vendettas are completely inappropriate and unbecoming, as are his calls for my banishment from Wikipedia. ~ UBeR 21:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, Dmcdevit and Raul654 are both notorious POV-pushers and trolls. For sure. And UBeR has never been blocked for edit warring on the Global Warming article, apart from the once. Guy (Help!) 21:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Zomg JzG is right! How'd that escape us! Someone set us up the bomb! *cough* -M^ask? 21:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Your sarcasm here isn't very well appreciated. Your misrepresentations (i.e. straw men) do little to help this discussion. Dcmdevit came to me to noting the ongoing tensions, and I respected and acknowledge his comments on my talk page. I haven't really a clue of what you're trying to suggest here. ~ UBeR 22:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It's our way of saying your complaint is ludicrous. -M^ask? 22:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect to both Raul and UBeR, and without taking any position whatsoever on the merits of either editor's actions, I would prefer not to be used as ammunition by either side in this debate. UBeR, the main reason I haven't added further to that thread is not necessarily because I agree with your (re-)addition (I remain dissatisfied with the wording, notably the use of the word primarily), but because I have been extremely busy IRL and not had an opportunity to discuss it further. I am also beginning to see that getting involved in "discussion" about the Global Warming article is a very good way to get a black mark in one's metaphorical copybook, get drawn into long and unhelpfully pedantic arguments which rapidly diverge from the point at hand, or attract terse dismissals of genuinely good-faith queries. The article has become a battleground where mere mortals (you know, those normal types who don't have a POV to push but would like a good article... remember them?) are ill advised to venture. Every editor at that article/talk page needs to take a good hard look at their contributions and see whether WP:POINT, WP:KETTLE and WP:DICK strike any familiar chords. --YFB ¿ 17:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with YFB.--Blue Tie 18:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, I sadly believe that UBeR seeks to undermine, harrass, and demote admins active at Global warming that do not hold his POV on global warming[55]. To present a complete synopsis of his antics would require a full time job, so I'll simply show some recent examples. His manner is often sharp and derogatory (here concerning Durova[56]), and he "rapid fired" contentious POV edits[57][58] during a Dmcdevit method event to draw edit warring, wants those who revert his editting blocked, [59], then castigates Dmcdevit for recommending level-headed editting [60]. He's back at his usual games again, so I recognize his tactics for what they are. --Skyemoor 13:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this a violation of WP:CANVASS? --Akhilleus (talk) 22:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Or any more so than this? ~ UBeR 22:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Uber spent several months specifically targeting his harassment towards WMC (including Uber's now deleted "hit list"; hit list pt 2). That's why I notified WMC. Uber's multiple canvassing notifications [61][62], on the other hand, cannot be so easily explained. Raul654 22:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment Whilst I side totally with the well respected Raul I wonder if just two citations really can be used to invoke WP:CANVASS when the policy/guideline itself references the following - Briefly, I think a reasonable amount of communication about issues is fine.. Just my tuppence worth. Pedro |  Chat  22:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not really a big deal, I think, but the particular phrasing of the message here isn't appropriate--"I understand that your involvement, albeit recent, has come under tremendous amount of attack, despite acting genuinely good-faithed. Recently, I have raised concern with these editors who attacks those who innocently look to amend the article through good-faithed contributions." --Akhilleus (talk) 23:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed not a big deal. But your cite is better covered by wp:civil so I still feel WP:CANVASS doesn't stand under Raul's comment. But this is pointless and pedantic considering the standing Raul has in the community. Surely time to archive this debate?Pedro |  Chat  23:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It is a sad day when the administrators have to resort to fallacies, like argumentum ad verecundiam, to defend their fellow peers. Look not at your perceived notions, but rather the content of the issue. Do you mean to tell me these remarks are inline for a so-called "arbitrator?" Since when has Wikipedia allowed for personal attacks. This is not the Wikipedia I know. And to quickly address my "inappropriate wording" to Blue Tie brought up by Akhilleus, it is the same wording Blue Tie has used to describe how he has been treated since the get-go on that article, despite his musing and well faithed contributions. ~ UBeR 01:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

That may well be, uBeR, but if your note on Blue Tie's talk page can be summed up as "you've been attacked by a bunch of people, and I started a complaint about one of them--come join in," that's a violation of WP:CANVAS. At least, that's the way it seems to me. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought it might be Canvassing when I saw it, but I have only read that policy once and I am not deeply familiar. When I read it the first time, I did not think it was a good policy. I believe that notifying ALL concerned individuals is ok. I do not believe it is such a good thing to bring in unconcerned or marginally concerned individuals. I tend to think a targeted focus to just your "friends" is probably not in the best interests of wikipedia most of the time. Sometimes I could imagine exceptions. I think it is likely that things go on in email that do not make their way to the discussion pages. As an aside, I would point out that UBeR does not always agree with my edits. I am unaware of any that he has done that I disagree with. Not sure how that adds to the discussion but perhaps it indicates the degree of separation between us. I think that there is no substantive connection but I did post here based upon his notice to me. Otherwise I would not have known about this complaint.--Blue Tie 18:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

UBeR has pulled the rug from under my feet with regards to a couple of edits I've made. And I certainly don't belong in the man-is-causing-global-warming camp. UBeR is consistent in making good-faith edits and certainly discusses possible solutions on how an article should read on talk pages before making the edits, a good example was yesterday on how to formulate an article relating to Global Warming deleting POV and weasel wording. The problem as I see it is that the actual POV pushers who think they know whats best for the Planet naturally feel they know what is best for Wikipedia. Banning UBeR (short-term or long-term) does the community no favours. --Dean1970 22:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Just curious, why is this relevant to ANI? What administrator action are you asking be taken, UBeR? --Iamunknown 23:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Can't you read? It says so right on the top opf this page: "This is [...] the Wikipedia complaints department"! ;-). Seriously, UBeR is a very weird editor. In contrast to most of the other "sceptical" editors on global warming (and surrounding articles), a lot of his edits are actually improving the articles. He is incredibly pedantic (which can be good sometimes, e.g. when hunting typos) and relies heavily on rules (and his interpretation of them). He also seems to have take a strong dislike against certain editors, and tries to needle them with irrelevant or plain wrong complaints. See my editor review of him for a slightly older perspective. I would hate to lose his good qualities, but sometimes he becomes unbearable. I don't know what would be best here. --Stephan Schulz 00:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Well to be fair, I went to a different page that read, "If you want to make an open informal complaint over the behaviour of an admin, you may do so [at AN/I]." :-) ~ UBeR 01:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It does say that. But it's still a fair question to ask--what result are you looking for? If your complaint is valid, how could it be solved? --Akhilleus (talk) 01:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I've had the same experiences as Stephan Schulz, but more experience of the bad side than the good. UBeR consistently engages in abuse of Wikiprocesses in the attempt to push his POV. For example, having canvassed votes (Rameses, Brittainia and the rest of that crew) in an unsuccessful attempt to delete Global warming conspiracy theory he justified dispute tags on the article with reference to a post made on AfD by another editor who later changed his vote to Keep. He uses the rules, but he needs to learn to play by them. In these circumstances, it's unsurprising that his good faith gets called into question. JQ 02:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Uber asked me to comment, so here goes. If I have to choose between the two, I'd take Raul in a heartbeat. I voted for him to be an arbitrator, and I support his arbcom rulings (including, paradoxically, the one under which I currently chafe). I'm a believer in the system.

On the other hand (paradox #2?) I also think that Raul fails to understand the complexity of Global Warming. I have read several books over the years on the topic. And the folks here are simply gaming the system on the subject. It's simply a case of might makes right (which I disagree with), but at Wikipedia "consensus rules". And as the bishop of my church says, "You can't make people change."

Bottom line: the global warming articles will remain biased until "enough" editors want it to be neutral. --Uncle Ed 03:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

As others have said, Uber does have a good side but the bad outweights the good. He is one of the worst examples of endless pointless talking that amounts to trolling I've seen - his editor review provides good examples of this William M. Connolley 07:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, editors such as User:Ed Poor and User:UBeR are some of the biggest problems we have at Wikipedia. It often takes years to get to the point where actions are assertively taken against them and in the meantime they wreak havoc trying to "balance" articles by inserting their own unduly weighted opinions in hopes that "both sides" can be presented -- even when there are not two sides to present. --ScienceApologist 18:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Gee, that's funny, the last email I got from Jimbo praised my "wisdom". Do you think there are not "two sides to present" on Chinese communism? Or just on anthropogenic global warming? --Uncle Ed 18:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't rest too heavily on your laurels, Ed. Riddle me this: why do you think that you have been so focused on the existence of two and only two sides for the "issues" you name? Why not three, four, ninety-nine, or a million? Are you maybe thinking too highly of yourself as the king of neutrality? I think so. --ScienceApologist 18:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one put off when editors repeatedly drop the J-bomb? --Minderbinder 20:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it irks us all and comes across as very 'my dad can beat up your dad'-ish. I believe we have WP:JIMBOSAID for this. -M^ask? 20:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem here seems to be widely differing standards for what a ReliableSource should be for an assertion allowed in the global warming page. One side seems to require that ReliableSources have applied a standard like "Verifiability, not truth" among those in the profession in their own work. The other side seems to require only the very weak standard of "Attributability, not truth" in being able to insert to the global warming page whatever unsubstantiated political propaganda some Senator or political operative has asserted on television. So we might have a timely discussion about what the standard for ReliableSource for insertion to the global warming page should be. --Rednblu 21:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely - this is the very cusp of the problem. And i'm sad to say that WP:RS,WP:ATT etc. doesn't help much in this case. My personal POV on this is to go for the "verifiability not truth". At the same time i also believe that it is important to gain consensus for the amount of needed documentation - ie. there are trivialities that can be fought out on the Talk pages which do not neccessarily need to end up in a sentence massively overloaded with references for each little nuance. Just my 2 cents. --Kim D. Petersen 22:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you think we could get everyone involved with the global warming page to agree on some standard for the ReliableSources, perhaps in the direction of "Verifiability, not truth"? It somehow does not seem fair to exclude "Attributable, not truth" statements just because the editors disagree with what the ReliableSource says, would you agree? --Rednblu 23:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if you can do it (I certainly hope so), but that sounds like a good idea. --kingboyk 23:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

But even if we would get everyone to agree to the phrase "Verifiability, not truth," there still would be about half of the Wikipedia community who would vote in a straw poll that "Verifiability" means the same thing as "Attributability", is that not true? So how do we resolve this? --Rednblu 23:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Blue Tie's Experience

I have been asked to comment here. Rather than go into extensive unsubstantiated commentary, I will provide an annotated history of my encounters with Raul, whom I have never had any dealings with prior to March. Despite never having dealt with me before, he was uncivil with me from the start and refused to consider an assumption of good faith even as I asked for it.

Initial Interaction

• 19:54, 26 March 2007 here. Our first “Interaction”. Raul conducts a Personal Attack / Failure to assume good faith.
• 23:45, 27 March 2007 here I post a day later, (but not directly to Raul). In the post, though specifically focused on another subject, I deny that I am a POV Pusher which alludes to Raul’s previous statement but it is indirect.
• 16:27, 28 March 2007 Raul responded to my post, again with accusations of bad faith and declared that my statements were “transparently disingenuous”.
• 17:01, 28 March 2007 I then address Raul directly on that talk page. I describe Raul’s behavior toward me as unethical and ask him to apply standards of good faith. This was AFTER I had attempted to take the matter to his talk page and was rebuffed. (see below)
• 18:02, 28 March 2007 Raul replies that he does not have to assume good faith if he does not think it is merited. That is the second time he tells me this. (see below).

I try to talk with Raul directly

• 23:57, 27 March 2007 I take my complaint to Raul on his talk page - this is the first time I address him directly. I request that he refrain from personal attack and tell him that in his position, he should set a better example.
• 01:34, 28 March 2007 he replies to me declaring my edits to be detrimental, that the people who object to me are all good editors and that my claim to be npov are irrelevant. He apparently is again telling me why he does not have to assume good faith or treat me well. He provides some diffs where he believes my edits demonstrate that I deserve the bad treatment.
• 02:03, 28 March 2007 I respond that he is still being unfair to me but at least he is up front about his hatred for me. Recognizing that he is not open to discussion about it, I let it go.

I present a concept for an article

• 20:30, 31 March 2007 I initiate a topic by describing a new outline that I believe will work better for the article.
• 20:35, 31 March 2007 Raul objects to the order, labeling my outline as a “massive” “POV whitewash” rewrite.
• 10:19, 2 April 2007 I reply that I did not intend a rewrite and was not trying for a new pov.

Raul participates in edit war and is blocked

• 02:11, 14 April 2007 I edit Count Iblis’ entries in the article, based, chiefly, upon lack of cites.
• 02:15, 14 April 2007 Raul reverts my edit calling it “POV whitewashing. This is one of the reverts that led to Raul being blocked for edit warring.
• I had observed his excess editing but was not inclined to report it until I saw him engaged in personal attack, so I contributed one diff to the 5 already presented for edit warring.

Raul has not covered himself in glory in this area. I think a member of Arbcom should behave better, but he is honest in expressing his feelings and biases.

And just as importantly, he is not the only person who has behaved in this way with respect to Global Warming (and related pages). There are other long-time editors there who refuse to assume good faith, who attack new editors, remove comments from talk pages and who, as a group, work to revert the article to their standard. This has deeply hurt the article and the project, in my opinion. There are editors who could be handled, probably by Arbcom, if a complaint were made. I could supply some diffs that show a consistent pattern of egregious behaviors. Instead of trying to go that route, which I believe is hurtful, I attempted a mediation, mentioning behavior and Ownership problems with that page. That mediation closed without even attempting to address the issues I raised. A second mediation was opened and I responded with similar but stronger complaints here and here. That too has just fizzled. No matter how politely I ask for positive responses, no matter how gently I seek redress, nothing happens. I suppose I could take my concerns to arbcom, but I am not sure I want to take the time to do that. Instead I am considering other options. Maybe just leaving the project. It is horrible to spend good time in such a waste. Or perhaps I will just ignore any page where ownership issues are rampant like this. I have not made up my mind, and one reason is that I am not sure just abandoning that page is in the best interests of the encyclopedia. I am not sure. But, on that note, I have found several other good editors who have left that global warming page or others like it, or even left the project, directly due to the problems with ownership that I mention here or other conflicts on that page that I have not mentioned. I think that is hurtful to the project. I have previously complained about how that page is "stable" only because a dedicated cadre of "Owners" turn away anyone who is not in perfect harmony with their views. They make it a war zone when it does not have to be. It is sad that it has been permitted to go this way. And I believe that it was not simply neglect but admins and maybe higher authorities have simply turned an eye away from these activities that has led to this damage because it is being done by people within their own ranks. I believe Raul was sucked into this but he is not the only one. It is very sad.

--Blue Tie 22:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Do not be fooled. What User:Blue Tie fails to mention is his own willing participation in the Global Warming Wars. WP:KETTLE, in spades. Raymond Arritt 04:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no attempt to fool anyone. I have not left anything out of my interactions with Raul. I engaged in complete and full disclosure of my interactions with him, to the best of my ability, except for a brief question and answer process on 17 April that was somewhat irrelevant. (Raul, oddly, challenged me on an issue where I was not disagreeing with his view and I pointed that out to him so the discussion ended. I considered it irrelevant to this topic.) In all of the above incidents, I have presented all of the diffs, so editors and admins may judge my actions and statements as well.

As for being a willing participant in the "Global Warming Wars" as you call them, I have worked hard to seek resolution, to discuss things on talk pages. I tried to engage in mediation and actively took all of my concerns to the talk page. I have been polite to the other people on that board and tried to show respect to everyone on all sides. As for being a "willing" participant, everyone is "willing" to edit on that page. I am not different from the rest in that regard. But I am not the cause of problems. I have consistently sought for solutions and resolutions and the response has been that I have been treated badly. Such as this post where I am accused without evidence. I believe a review of my edits will show that I have been polite and reasonable with everyone and sought for resolution without hostility or acrimony. I have made some mistakes, but they were made in ignorance and I do not think I have been harsh or unkind to anyone. I have also repeatedly asked that if I have offended or been harsh with anyone that they would please bring it to my talk page so that I could make some sort of restitution. No one has brought any complaint to me. So if Raymond Arritt has a problem with me, I also ask him to bring it to my talk page so that I may redress the issue. --Blue Tie 14:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Chuckle... Blue Tie has been a breath of freash air to the dictators who roost at GW and have driven off most anyone who cares about the article but doesn't always share their views. I wonder what camp Raymond Arritt is in? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.81.20.11 (talk • contribs). — 66.81.20.11 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Blue Tie has been the only voice of reason at Global Warming. i am absoluterly amazed that Raymond Arritt is taking any position against Blue Tie. this makes me wonder if Arritt is interested in contructive outcomes, since Blue Tie was the main advocate of a positive approach. --Sm8900 15:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

This is really so very simple

WP:NPOV in a nutshell: we report the established views from reliable sources, giving them due weight as to their prevalence.

It doesn't matter if the scientists are wrong because Wikipedia doesn't publish what is necessarily fact, nor does it undertake original research to find out if the so-called experts are correct. We merely collate and compile our articles from the reliable sources.

Right now, the "scientists' argument" is the overwhelmingly prevalent one, and should occupy (I'd estimate as a lay observer, who only knows of this topic through the non-specialist media) about 90% of the article. The counter-arguments are not widely accepted, and should not get undue weight.

Any editor who is here because they "know the truth" is likely to be blind to the above. Any edits which seek to give undue weight to any argument which isn't supported by the sources is a discredit to the encyclopedia.

The bottom line: in 50 years "we" may have a good laugh at those global warming freaks, but right now the case that global warming is happening and it's happening due to human factors, is the prevalent one. --kingboyk 13:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If it were so simple, it would have been solved by now. It has been called "complex" by the mediator. Anyway, I do not think the problem is just "science vs non-science". In addition to scientists not being in full agreement, there is also the issue of wikipedia standards. So it might not be so simple. --Blue Tie 14:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not so simple because we're not here to discuss the merits of inclusion for particular information on a particular article. That may be reserved for the article discussion page. I'm here to bring attention to the rude and incivil behavior and attacks brought upon by Raul654, your so called "arbitrator." ~ UBeR 17:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

As the above comments have repeatedly pointed out above, not only is your complaint totally without merit, but a more pressing concern is your repeated trolling on Wikipedia. Raul654 19:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope. I provided two clear examples, Blue Tie, a dozen or so. Whether you and your cronies choose to ignore them is not up to me, however. ~ UBeR 21:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to second that. Minority views on topics such as global warming must follow the undue weight clause of NPOV. The minority view (and we can name the number of prominent scientists that refute GW on our fingers and toes and even most of them only refute parts of the majority findings) should be relegated to a brief mention and a link to expansion in subarticles under appropriate titles.--MONGO 20:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually the number of scientists that we have counted on wikipedia is larger than that. And the Oregon Petition suggests it is thousands. But here is the real problem: describing it as a minority view on the basis of counting (as you suggest) regardless of many or few, requires Original Research. However, I do agree that minority views should not be given undue weight. But even that does not make the issue simple.--Blue Tie 21:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

One has to wonder why UBeR is spending so much of his time suing people in the wiki courts. Why not argue about edits to the global warming page on the talk page. Even if UBeR is right about Raul, it is not very relevant because if Raul were the only problem then that would not prevent UBeR from eding the global warming page if his edits are reasonable. Raul not assuming good faith? But then why behave like a three year old child and cry? Count Iblis 14:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin violation of Wikipedia:Blocking policy

SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · count · api · block log) blocked User:Tsunami Butler to gain an advantage in a content dispute. This appears to be part of a pattern of behavior on SlimVirgin's part.

There has been a content dispute brewing since last fall. The background to the dispute is that one week after joining Wikipedia in November of 2004 [63], SlimVirgin authored the article Jeremiah Duggan, which she has OWNed ever since. This article is essentially a mirror for the "Justice for Jeremiah" website. That website is a compendium of libels and harsh attacks on Lyndon LaRouche, issued primarily by Chip Berlet and Dennis King, two former leftists who, twenty years ago, received relatively prominent press coverage for their polemics against LaRouche. Not long thereafter they faded into obscurity and the Duggan affair was an opportunity for them to get back into the public eye.

Jeremiah Duggan was a college student who was a casual attendee at a LaRouche conference in Germany. During the conference he committed suicide, for reasons that have never been explained. The "Justice for Jeremiah" project has implied that the LaRouche group somehow caused his suicide, although no motive has ever been suggested. Also, no reliable source has ever specifically alleged that the LaRouche group caused his death, although as SlimVirgin put it, "almost every single source that has written about this implies that it is somehow involved in his death."[64] The idea of an article for the sole purpose of promoting "implications" of involvement in a murder is troubling from the standpoint of WP:BLP. SlimVirgin has insisted on inserting material from this article in other articles, including: Helga Zepp-LaRouche,Schiller Institute, Lyndon LaRouche, Jacques Cheminade, LaRouche movement, and Worldwide LaRouche Youth Movement. Meanwhile, during the latter part of that same year, Chip Berlet had begun to edit Wikipedia as Cberlet (talk · contribs · count · api · block log), and began working as a team with SlimVirgin in POV disputes. Along with Will Beback (who used the username Willmcw) they began to assert ownership over the articles on the "LaRouche template." In June of 2005, Dennis King opened an account as Dking (talk · contribs · count · api · block log), but he did not begin to edit LaRouche articles until November of 2006. His edits of those articles developed into a frenzy of self-citing (see [65], [66],[67])

Tsunami Butler (talk · contribs · count · api · block log) began editing in October of 2006. Among her first edits is a question on a talk page, where she receives a personal attack from Cberlet in response:[68][69]

Tsunami Butler began to put together evidence that Cberlet and Dking were in violation of numerous policies, including WP:COI#Citing_oneself, WP:LIVING#Biased_or_malicious_content, WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE, and WP:RS. This became the basis for a MedCab case (see Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/medcab06-07.) Four days after SlimVirgin first took notice of this case [70] it was closed without any explanation[71]. The essential content dispute between SlimVirgin and Tsunami Butler was over whether Wikipedia articles should be a soapbox for the theories of Chip Berlet and Dennis King, in violation of WP:NOT.

Here is the chronology of SlimVirgin's ban of Tsunami Butler:

• April 1, 2007: SlimVirgin asks for ArbCom permission to ban Tsunami Butler. [72]

I won't list all the diffs for the following section, as the material has been neatly archived here: Tsunami Butler ban discussion.

The reason given for the proposed ban is "acting to promote LaRouche," under the "LaRouche 1" ArbCom case, where it says: "Supporters of Lyndon LaRouche are instructed not to add references to Lyndon directly to articles except where they are highly relevant, and not to engage in activities that might be perceived as "promotion" of Lyndon LaRouche." However, SlimVirgin was unable to produce any evidence that Tsunami Butler had violated this remedy. As ArbCom member Kirill Lokshin put it, "The various LaRouche rulings have not really been kept up-to-date with the evolution of policy—even the most recent considerably predates a number of significant policy developments in 2006 and 2007—so I do not think they should be interpreted as providing for broad restrictions on behavior; the main remedy imposed in them that was not applied to specific parties covered only the introduction of LaRouche-originated material into unrelated articles, in any case."

Consequently, SlimVirgin changes her rationale for the ban. Unable to find evidence of a violation of the ArbCom decisions, she falls back upon the old stand-by, accusations of sock-puppetry. Tsunami Butler has informed me by e-mail that she edits using AOL in Los Angeles, meaning that she has a dynamic IP address. As I understand it, this means that any check user evidence linking her to another user is circumstantial at best; I don't know how many people edit Wikipedia using AOL in Los Angeles, but my hunch is that it is quite a substantial number. SlimVirgin chooses her words carefully when she says: "A check user has confirmed that Tsunami Butler appears to be sockpuppeting."

The relevant policy that has been violated by SlimVirgin is the following: Blocking to gain an advantage in a content dispute is strictly prohibited. Admins must not block editors with whom they are currently engaged in a content dispute. If in doubt, report the problem to other admins to act on. (Wikipedia:Blocking policy)

From the time she launches the campaign to ban Tsunami Butler, to the actual banning 10 days later, I count 133 edits by SlimVirgin to LaRouche-template articles and talk pages, mostly of a contentious nature.

• Example: on April 6, 2007, Tsunami Butler requests that quotes from King and Berlet "be reduced to a level that is commensurate with their notability." April 7, 2007: SlimVirgin adds new attack material from Chip Berlet, alleging that LaRouche is guilty of secret, coded anti-Semitism: "You would have to listen over time to a ... set of patterns, and you would begin to hear the echoes of the classic antisemitic conspiracy theories." This material is added to Schiller Institute.[73]

This ban should be overturned, and POV pushing at the Jeremiah Duggan article and related articles should be scrutinized. --NathanDW 05:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• This is pretty much the same info that was on the now deleted Wikipedia:Requests for comment/SlimVirgin...it was deleted for a reason.--MONGO 05:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• Yeah, NathanDW's post appears to be vexatious. As was clearly explained to him already, Tsunami Butler was blocked for sockpuppetry, confirmed by Checkuser. The block is clearly valid. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• I know virtually nothing about LaRouche; he sounds like a political cult figure similar to Ayn Rand, with a small cadre of devoted followers, a few equally devoted opponents, and a majority of the public who has never heard of him. But I find the claims about LaRouche in Jeremiah Duggan to be problematic. There are some weasel words ("The group is widely seen as a fringe political cult"). I'm also not sure whether it's appropriate to mention LaRouche's prison term for tax evasion in an article this distantly related (it is, of course, appropriate to note this reliably sourced fact in LaRouche's own article). I think it's questionable whether allowing significant influence in the LaRouche article from relatively minor figures (Berlet and King) is appropriate under WP:BLP, especially since Berlet and King are Wikipedia editors themselves, and we usually don't allow self-promotion of this nature. While we must be on the lookout for LaRouche POV-pushing (I've seen enough Ayn Rand POV-pushing to know the kind of stuff that got people pissed off here), we must be equally diligent to ensure the articles do not tilt too far in the opposite direction. I would urge Arbcom to revisit their cases on LaRouche in light of WP:BLP, which didn't exist when some of the cases were initially heard. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 05:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
• tl;dr, and please, cut it out with that funky formatting, it looks like you cut and pasted from a 40 column C64. SchmuckyTheCat 06:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• SlimVirgin explained her TsunamiButler block to User:Don't_lose_that_number, another Larouche rep on WP:

  The permanent block was for a violation of the ArbCom rulings and for WP:SOCK. The accounts are believed to be operated by a banned user. The ArbCom does not distinguish between sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry, and they made that explicit in their LaRouche2 ruling. However, as I said, I'm perfectly willing to have another admin review the block — bearing in mind that seven admins apart from me have commented already — and then it will be as though that admin instigated it; or they may agree with you and unblock. If you want me to pick one, let me know; otherwise you can choose an admin and ask him or her to e-mail me for more information.[74][75]

  I also see no problem at all with this block. It is very common for ArbCom to not distinguish between sock and meat puppets based on their behavior pattern, and once there is such pattern any admin can block, regardless of any content disputes or involvement. SlimVirgin makes it clear that multiple admins reviewed and supported her decision, both before and after, so I think bringing this issue here, without mentioning these reviews and support, including the certification of the action by an ArbCom member, is misleading at best. Crum375 13:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the block looks good to me, it has received plenty of attention. I do wish you would keep your complaint much briefer though. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 13:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Seems to have been handled properly. Not a content issue, but rather violation of Arbcom rulings. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Same as this? -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 13:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I think every i's been dotted here. I would also hope that arbcom can make it crystal clear what LaRouche supporters can and cannot do (apologies if they have clarified earlier rulings somewhere already). IronDuke 13:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I know absolutely nothing about the content dispute, but it seems pretty clear that SlimVirgin was on absolutely solid ground here. Let it go. --Leifern 14:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. Khoikhoi 05:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

<--Multiple clarifications have been issued, see Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche and Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche_2, as well as the case decisions themselves, which establish a bright line test. Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from any Wikipedia article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles. In other words, sources tied to the LaRouche movement are not considered reliable for use in articles except those that are closely related to LaRouche. I don't see how this is ambiguous, except as you can see from the talk page links, this seems to come up over and over again. Thatcher131 14:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

And it's utterly irrelevant to the issue at hand. SlimVirgin initially posed her desire to ban as an ArbCom violation, but she dropped it like a hot potato after Kirill Lokshin pointed out that there was no ArbCom violation. After that, she had to resort to the all-purpose, "one size fits all" excuse of the ban-happy admin, sockpuppetry (or in this case, meatpuppetry.) But I would also point out that Herschelkrustofsky was banned for very specific reasons, not simply disagreeing with SlimVirgin on content. If anyone who has a content dispute with SlimVirgin is a meatpuppet, then you are giving her a virtual 007 "license to ban" which it looks like she has abused more than once. Please remember that, lacking a valid claim of a violation of ArbCom rulings, the operative policy is Blocking to gain an advantage in a content dispute is strictly prohibited. Admins must not block editors with whom they are currently engaged in a content dispute. If in doubt, report the problem to other admins to act on. (Wikipedia:Blocking policy) If the basis for banning is supposed to be so solid, what is preventing her from having another admin do it? --NathanDW 15:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

So if some other admin just does it, does that satisfy your complaint? --Rednblu 16:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Surely you jest. We are looking at major league POV-pushing by SlimVirgin, Cberlet and Dking, aggravated by the misuse of admin authority to silence any opposition. In my opinion, this is an abuse of trust where the only appropriate remedy would be de-sysopping. The use of admin authority must be rigorously POV-neutral, or it undermines faith in the whole system. --NathanDW 15:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, then your issue is POV-pushing, is it? I don't have independent knowledge of what the truth is. But when I look at a page like Jeremiah Duggan, it looks just about right in terms of a 50-50 turf war over what rumors and hearsay will be allowed on the page. There is a lot of OriginalResearch there--on both sides. I'm not sure it is good for Wikipedia to have such a page--because, by my standards, there are no ReliableSources that have adequately Verified their assertions. Notwithstanding my questions about whether the page Jeremiah Duggan should be deleted, judging from the HistoryRecord and the TalkPage, it does not seem that the honorable User:NathanDW, User:SlimVirgin, User:Cberlet, or User:Dking have any of them singly or together done POV-pushing that is not completely justified from the best available rumors and hearsay attributable to the best ReliableSources. Can you suggest a step-wise procedure that we could both use to detect this "major league POV-pushing" that you see? --Rednblu 18:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I would be very enthusiastic about removing the rumors and hearsay from said article, which would leave it as a stub. The article was put up for deletion by one editor, who was promptly blocked by SlimVirgin (see User_talk:IAMthatIAM.)

But, to the larger issue of POV pushing. It's a perennial problem, and there are lots of policies here to discourage it. But my real issue is POV-pushing with abuse of admin powers, which is intolerable, and when someone is caught red-handed doing this, there ought to be consequences. --NathanDW 03:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

So what is your stepwise procedure for detecting "POV-pushing with abuse of admin power"? I would be glad to try it out. --Rednblu 08:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Another question, why was the original RfC oversighted? What policy did it violate? Or are all RfCs permanently deleted once they run their course? If not, why was this one the exception? Cla68 13:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I just answered my own question...although several users (including myself) endorsed the RfC, only one was listed in the block for attempting resolution with the object of the complaint. Therefore, according to the rules, the RfC was deleted. If I'm wrong on this, please let me know. Cla68 14:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

talk page of user: Grace E. Dougle being blanked

Need help with how to leave the talk page of an user who has left Wikipedia: [76]. --Mihai cartoaje 08:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Of course, that is the user's preferred version; it's filled with warnings, but seeing as how they're the subject of an ongoing RFC, I don't think it's the right time to blank this particular talk page. If they were to return unannounced finding the evidence of the previous warnings would be impossible unless you know where to look. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

That user is not the subject of an ongoing RfC. --Mihai cartoaje 08:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• I stand corrected. I striked out that bit of my comment. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The user is the subject of an RfC [[77]] and is involved in an RfC involving mihai cartoaje, who has been stalking me and harrassing me [[78]] DPeterson^talk 12:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The usernames are significantly different. Could this just be inattention? --Mihai cartoaje 13:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

But the warnings were undeserved. The warnings from RalphLender and DPeterson were for moving threaded replies to comments in a RfC to the talk page, which the RfC rules say we must do.

I think I understand what happened now. At the time I went on a wiki-break to catch up with my income tax filings. Also, I didn't know what to answer the user: being disdainful would be hurtful, but being friendly would make people say "the user wrote a positive comment about you because you are friends." My unexplained wiki-break combined with an user writing a positive comment about me in the RfC made people think that it was an alternate account I had created. That is not true: look at this thread [79]. I'm a guy; hardly a discussion I would participate in. But the suspicions made people bite the user, and Mr. Darcy write a very vitriolic warning which reads "If you don't alter the way you deal with this user, I'm going to have to block you to prevent further attacks" which may have meant, "if you don't stop complaining, I'm going to indefinitely block you because I think you're a sockpuppet."

I hope you understand now why the warnings were undeserved. --Mihai cartoaje 13:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, I find it bizarre that RalphLender and DPeterson were tag-team edit warring to add threaded replies to the RfC, clearly against RfC rules, with similar edit summaries (and similar fake warnings). It's almost as if they were trying to push the user into making a mistake. Here are the relevant edit summaries with a name starred out:

(cur) (last) 13:57, 23 February 2007 RalphLender (Talk | contribs) (→Outside view)

(cur) (last) 15:18, 23 February 2007 Grace E. D***** (Talk | contribs) (→Outside view - moving comment to talk page, it clearly says users who post in other sections should not post here.)

(cur) (last) 16:02, 23 February 2007 RalphLender (Talk | contribs) (I may be wrong, but I don't believe it is the editor Grace's place to edit this Request for Comment page.)

(cur) (last) 16:06, 23 February 2007 Grace E. D****** (Talk | contribs) (rv and stick to the rules, cut out misleading edit-summaries: I did not edit other peoples comments of course)

(cur) (last) 20:12, 23 February 2007 RalphLender (Talk | contribs) (→Outside view - PLEASE do not edit this page. Leave other's comments alone.)

(cur) (last) 20:43, 23 February 2007 Grace E. D***** (Talk | contribs) (stick to the rules and post in appropriate section, and don't yell.)

(cur) (last) 20:54, 23 February 2007 DPeterson (Talk | contribs) (Please do not move or change my comments. That is for an uninvolved administrator to do.)

--Mihai cartoaje 17:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I've followed this and other disputes of Mihai cartoaje, particularily on the mental illness page and schizophrerna article. He does seem to be hounding DPeterson with something like a vendetta. Mihai's blanking of another user's page is odd and the fact that both he and Grace E. dougle have/had RfC's about their conduct almost makes it appear that he is retailating against DPeterson. JohnsonRon 21:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I have never edited the Mental illness article or associated talk page. And Grace E. D was never the subject of a RfC. Please stop twisting facts. I restored that user talk page to the version it was when the user left Wikipedia. I note that you have changed the section title: [80]. --Mihai cartoaje 01:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Robdurbar

The user account of Robdurbar has gone crazy. Deleted the main page, blocking everyone in sight. His admin powers need to be taken away quickly. — Lost^(talk) 10:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I was just looking where the stewards are. Agathoclea 10:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Desysopped. – Riana ^ऋ 10:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

And thanks for unblocking me. Agathoclea 10:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about any rude unblocking summaries I may have left. – Riana ^ऋ 10:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

What the fuck happened there? Was that someone saying goodbye in spectacular fashion, or did a vandal hack the account? Moreschi ^Talk 10:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I highly doubt it was a vandal; that user left several weeks ago. A vandal would probably choose someone who is at their peak of activity. — Deckiller 10:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The block of Jeff makes it quite clear that this wasn't a comprimised account, for me anyways. Daniel Bryant 10:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I wonder how much this will shake up the RfA reform debates. — Deckiller 10:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's go and see... Carcharoth 10:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Merged from separate thread directly above.

What's going on? --Dweller 10:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Emergency desysopping of USer:Robdurbar??? The accounts either compromised, or he's taking the **** Ryan Postlethwaite 10:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Desysop please ASAP. He is unblocking himself, blocking other users (just got me), and creating havoc. Anyone on IRC? – Riana ^ऋ 10:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Desysopped by Jhs. MaxSem 10:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I reverted all his blocks, hope that's OK. – Riana ^ऋ 10:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You're too fast. A pity, I had hoped I'd get an opportunity of unblocking Jimbo once in my life. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Fast? Tabbed browsing, my friend ^^ – Riana ^ऋ 10:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Cheese needs to be undeleted. MaxSem 10:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Good going Riana!--cj | talk 10:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

What now then? Leave him desysopped and blocked, or take it to arbcom to make it official? Ryan Postlethwaite 10:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

No formalities needed. He'll just remain blocked until he comes back with a plausible explanation how this was not him. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we'll need a rather good explanation... no vandal goes and blocks a bunch of established users, not to mention a user the admin has blocked previously. – Riana ^ऋ 10:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Continue :) Daniel Bryant 10:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Should this be documented somewhere? Has this ever happened before? An admin goes rogue and got in three edits before being blocked, got in 25 blocking, unblocking, unprotecting, and deleting actions. Can someone confirm all the mess has been tidied up? Carcharoth 10:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It has. Good thing he wasn't pissed off enough to do something that's actually damaging. —Cryptic 10:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Shake up RFA? After this, we'll have people saying that the crats should be able to desysop...which will lead to even higher standards at RfB....arrrrrgggghhh....Moreschi ^Talk 10:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm one who thinks the crats should be able to desysop...but then again, I also feel we shouldn't raise the standards either :) — Deckiller 10:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we need more stewards who are highly active on WP? None of the stewards seem to be half as active as the folk you see on ANI everyday. Standards for stewards seem to be lower than for crats... who wants to have a go next year? :) – Riana ^ऋ 10:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Lower? As in, like, needing to speak ten languages, active participation on 50 WikiMedia projects, and accounts on more? Moreschi ^Talk 10:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the criteria are different; because of that, I think it might not be a bad idea to consider giving crats the right to desyssop. But I agree that we need more tools to fight hacked or crazy admins. — Deckiller 10:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Before we get too hung up on the idea that we need more stewarts or drastic measures to prevent a rare sysop rampage, remember that this mess started at 09:57 with the unprotection of "cheese" and was over by 10:14 when Robdurbar got desysopped. I'd say the stewarts (and JHS in particular) did a good job. As to bureaucrats getting the right or technical ability to desysop, I have no opinion.--Chaser - T 10:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah apparently they were alerted on IRC [81]. Will (aka Wimt) 10:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

But is it good or bad that it took 17 minutes to deal with this? To be fair, the smoking gun of Main Page deletion (and edit summaries like "I wonder how long I can get away with this") didn't occur until about 13 minutes before he was desysopped. But is 13 minutes a good response time or a bad one? Carcharoth 11:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

He got in more than three edits. Some of them remained deleted when I restored only the revisions of the main page from before the incident began. —David Levy 11:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I've just submitted a patch that disables main page deletion, please vote/comment. MaxSem 10:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

WT:RFA thread is here. Carcharoth 10:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow... First case of rogue admin I've ever seen. Have to thank your for your quick actions Riana, before he deletes the whole Project... --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 10:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

RFCheckUser started at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Robdurbar ^Thanks, _{Luc "Somethingorother" French} 10:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the trouble couldhave been avoided if admins could not unblock themselves or .... there would be a 30 minutes delay in unblocking. Agathoclea 10:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I just said exactly the same thing at WT:RFA at exactly the same time! – B.hotep ^u/_t• 11:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW, his autoblocks should also be undone. MaxSem 11:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I think I just undid the autoblocks. Can someone check if I've done it correctly? – Riana ^ऋ 11:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Done. >Radiant< 11:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Gah! That's a mess. From 10:01 to 10:14 on 19 April 2007, in case it scrolls off the screen. Hang on, they are vanishing in front of my eyes. Weird. How does that list work? Carcharoth 11:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You gotta show me how to do that sometime :) – Riana ^ऋ 11:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Tabbed browsing, of course :) Firefox FTW! >Radiant< 11:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

That was a rather freaky demonstration of aberrant behavior... (→Netscott) 11:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser results in - account seemingly not compromised. Moreschi ^Talk 11:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe Robdurbar had logged in with the "Remember me" option enabled, and someone got onto his computer? --Ixfd64 20:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

---

According to someone (I can't remember whom, I thought it was in one of the IRC channels, but I can't find anything there), people in #wikipedia were panicing for quite some time before someone knew whom to contact (e.g. stewards). What is needed for this kind of situation isn't more stewards or ability for bureaucrats to desysop; what's needed is for people to know where to go when something like this happened, which luckily Peter Isotalo did (and also five or six other people who came in too late). When (or, more optimistically, if) an admin goes on a havoc spree like this, you should go to #wikimedia-stewards and write !steward, and someone will usually respond within seconds (there are stewards from many different time zones). If there are none, developers (in #wikimedia-tech) will be able to do a desysopping. Jon Harald Søby 12:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

My problem was I couldn't remember the name of the stewards IRC channel: by the time I remembered it, he'd already been desysopped. Thanks for the reminder. Moreschi ^Talk 12:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem

Of course we did not follow proper process here, because Robdurbar should first have gotten a standardized warning template that deleting the main page is considered inappropriate, and that repeat actions may result in deopping. I have taken the liberty of designing this, Template:Uw-delmain1. >Radiant< 12:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Very well done, Radiant. I'm a bit puzzled regarding the "Welcome to Wikipedia" bit — admins are not new users as far as I'm concerned (unless the RfA reform goes a little too far, heh). Michaelas¹⁰ 12:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

ROFL :D. MaxSem 12:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to disagree with the assessment. By the time I blocked him he had already been vandalizing on top of deleting. Even though the main page was involved I did check if there was a particular issue that needed an emergency deletion. The subsequent re-creation of the page showed a vandalizing intend. I knew that he could unblock himself, but the block would stop further deletions to bridge the time until a steward could be alerted. Agathoclea 12:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, if this shows us anything it is that the whole emergency de-admining system works. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 12:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, it's very encouraging. By the time I'd logged into the stewards IRC channel it'd already been done. – Steel 13:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd venture a guess that any admin that deletes Main page will be desysopped (probably emergency desysopped) whether the actions are repeated or not. I see no need for a warning for such actions. -- Renesis (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's not be overly dramatic. As the admin who recently deleted the mainpage said, "Indeed, it was my terrible mistake. Looked at the wrong page, pressed the wrong button. Restored immediately, so no damage was made." They weren't desysopped for it, and rightfully so. Zocky | picture popups 13:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Before today, main page deletions were entirely accidental and were reversed with no warnings. Bad-faith deletions of the main page require emergency de-sysopping. Period. // Sean William 13:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

To be clear, I was referring to bad-faith deletion, not accidental. And I agree with HighInBC below. -- Renesis (talk) 13:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we can all tell the difference between an emergency and something that can be discussed prior to desysoping, this would be the former. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 13:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, deletion of the Main Page is such a big deal that, even if it was accidental, it wouldn't kill the offending admin to be desysopped until such time as he explains that it was a mistake. If it appears to be an emergency, shoot first and ask questions later. The desysopping "bullet" does no permanent damage. --Richard 14:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Except, it leaves the "offending" admin with no way to correct his/her mistake. --Edokter (Talk) 14:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There are a few hundred others willing to correct that mistake, though. – Riana ^ऋ 14:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Availability of stewards and emergency procedures

Jon Harald Søby indicated that there will probably be stewards available at any time, as they are in different time zones, but that seems a little bit like wishful thinking to me. There probably are quiet times when no stewards are available, but the only way we will find out, unless a system is set up, is when something like this happens and we find all the stewards are asleep/away/inactive, or whatever. Can we be sure that stewards or developers will always be available? The other point Jon Harald Søby raised was that the people active in #wikipedia at the time didn't seem to know they needed to find a steward. I'm sure a whole generation of Wikipedians will now have this fact burned into their psyche! :-) But seriously, what other enculturation problems might lie ahead? Is there something that you personally don't know how to handle, and who would you go running to if you encountered something big you couldn't handle? The obvious thing that springs to mind is the dark mutterings made by people who, always invoking WP:BEANS, say that there are really destructive things that a rogue admin can do. I have no interest in knowing what those things are (and please don't try and guess), but can I ask if the solution would be obvious if the unthinkable started to happen? Carcharoth 14:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

More Stewards are not necessarily the idea. After all, does it make sense for an incident on the English Wikipedia that lasted only a few minutes warrant more Stewards to cover all time zones? Short of designing a new protection policy where only Bureaucrats can edit a certain page so that people know what to do when an Administrator goes wild (ugh) or a Steward-power bot that desysops Administrators that unprotect the Main Page (ugh), the easiest solution is, of course, make sure it doesn't occur again. Either way, Stewards are a meta thing and whether or not more Stewards are needed will be a meta consideration. x42bn6 Talk 16:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Steward bot = bad idea. People mess up. Prodego ^talk 01:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think I have an alternative idea that could get us along without stewards. What if we made it possible for someone to effectually block an admin (i.e. self-unblocking would be impossible), but only with the agreement of several other admins. The likelihood of more than one account being compromised at any one time would be rather low.--Pharos 00:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Self unblocking needs to be possible, lest someone manage to block all active admins. Which, by going backwards through the logs with a bot shouldn't be too hard. Having no admins and no Stewards would be pretty bad. Prodego ^talk 00:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but the idea would be that it would take the agreement of multiple admins (possibly three) to make an effectual block. And then, to guard against the remote possibility of more than one rogue, we could also limit the number of such accounts that could be blocked in this way (also maybe three).--Pharos 01:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Going back to Carcharoth's question, I firmly believe that the solution to the really destructive thing we never state is not immediately obvious. How to describe the solution without describing the problem is an issue beyond my current leaps of intuition. GRBerry 00:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I can think of two really destructive things, but probably not what you are thinking. What are you thinking? Prodego ^talk 01:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

E-mail, please, guys... :-) Anyway, I'd hope the developers are aware of any really big loopholes in security and/or vandal possibilities. I suspect some bot-operated thing is one of the big scary things (going backwards through the logs is a clever idea), but the specifics are beyond my intuition as well. Interesting Wiktionary story below, the idea of timing things for a quiet period like that is a good idea. Of course, some planes now allow internet access (I think), so that will soon no longer be a problem. Carcharoth 04:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh geez yeah. WP:BEANS and all that - Alison^☺ 04:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

This has happened before on Wiktionary

The same thing happened twice before on Wiktionary. wikt:Wonderfool (talk • contribs • page moves • block log) Local: User:Wonderfool on Wiktionary did the same thing twice, once using the sockpuppet wikt:Dangherous (talk • contribs • page moves • block log) Local: User:Dangherous because no one in their right mind would ever sysop Wonderfool after his first rampage. On the second time around, "Dangherous" blocked all of the other admins and deleted the main page. This vandal timed it just right so that all of the stewards were on airplanes coming home from WikiMania 2006, so a developer had to directly tweak the database to remove Dangherous's sysop bit. See wikt:Wiktionary:Administrators/Former#User:Dangherous for some of the details on the Dangherous case. Jesse Viviano 03:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Possible technical solutions

If anyone has any ideas on how to allow regular administrators or bureaucrats to solve this problem, please post them in this section.

I am proposing a somewhat technical solution to the administrator turned badministrator (yes, the pun is intentional) problem. If an administrator turns bad, we should have some measure to allow other administrators to temporarily take care of the problem. We should have a system that temporarily remove all rights beyond regular editor from someone for 24 hours if 24 different administrators, or two bureaucrats, give a strike to an administrator in the same minute. I feel that this will give us time to find a steward to fix this problem. I chose 24 because 16 different administrators in one minute will be too easy to overcome for things other than true emergencies, but 32 different administrators in one minute might be too hard to overcome in a true emergency. Jesse Viviano 22:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I have a simple idea, why not write a tool that blocks a user every 5 seconds untill a steward can desysop? I could whip one of these tools up in about 10 minutes. Betacommand ^{(talk • contribs • Bot)} 05:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

But can't an admin still block users while being blocked? (I don't think they can protect or delete when blocked). --TeckWiz is now R ^ParlateContribs_@(Lets go Yankees!) 05:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard of an admin acting like this before.

This might take a bit of work, but what if there a way to flag how many times within, say, 5 minutes, a user was blocked, so that if (for example) 3 different administrators blocked a rogue admin within a 5 minute timespan, the rogue admin would be automatically desysopped for a period of time, and the actions of everyone involved could then be reviewed? --Kyoko 05:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I like this idea of auto-desysopping. I hope you mean a software feature though. (I don't think we want a steward bot going crazy. --TeckWiz is now R ^ParlateContribs_@(Lets go Yankees!) 05:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I meant a software feature. I wouldn't want to see a malfunctioning steward bot desysopping people... or granting admin tools to everybody in sight, either. --Kyoko 05:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack by IP 61.9.219.49

See see diff here

Anon wrote Don't worry Iwazaki, Raveen is a certified racist who hates the Sinhalese and tries to demonise the Singhalese in all of his Wikipedia contributions. Thanks RaveenS 12:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Warned. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 13:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

What happens to to the slanderous and personal attack sentece. Do we leave it there ? Look the behaviour is escalating

Hereand See diff

Please read the removal of personal atacks essay. I refactored it. I also suggest you ignore them and avoid escalation. In case the IP escalates that further, the account would be blocked according to WP:NPA. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 15:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I blocked their sock for 31h for reposting the personal attack once again after i reformulated it. I also gave another warning to the original poster. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 14:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Reporting continous insertion of unsourced material

Sc4900 (talk · contribs) has been adding unsourced and unverifiable movies to the filmography of Hrithik Roshan. The trouble started from here - one, two.

Sc4900 (talk · contribs) again added it, with this edit - three. Please note, Sashank-part1 isn't verified and he added Sashank-part2. Moments later zie repeated that - with this edit.

It was after this that he made the page Sashank. Sc4900's added in whoever zie feels like - Arnold S, Hillary Duff, Jackie Chan, and Cameron Diaz! Not a single reference on the entire page, seems like fantastic fictional writing on the part of Sc4900.

A search on Google, such as this one. The only result on the first page that even mentions Roshan is this page, which in fact is an older version of WP, with this rumour attached. Another Google search - this, reveals all the sites which suggest Sashank as a real film are in fact copies of older versions of the WP page of Hrithik Roshan.

I requested Sc4900 to stop adding it, by posting messages on zir's talk page - no response. Instead, these edits were made - again, again, and again, this time reverted by another user.

Recently, Sc4900 has made Killer (hindi film) which also seems to be entirely made up, as noted by Shakirfan (talk · contribs). An entire string of edits to London Dreams, The Time Machine (hindi film), Kabhie Jeene all show the user is trying to propagate rumours.

All of us working on the Bollywood bios would be grateful for any help in this matter. Regards, xC | ☎ 12:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The only positive entry I could find was one that said that Illeana(allegedly to star in Killer) has signed for a Hindi Film(it doesn't metion what and opposite whom). And how can this guy give a definete release date for a film whose Muhurat has not taken place? --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 14:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The user is clearly disruptive and totally uncommunicative. I'll leave a stern warning on his talk page and block him upon next violation if I'm online. A Train^talk 15:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

User continues to add unsourced material after last warning. Looks like vandalism to me. TwoOars ^{(T | C)} 02:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Update:I'd like to draw your attention to zie's latest edits -

• Adding non-existant movies again
• Here the same
• Newest fictional creation of the editor is Kaal 2. A google search further proves that the film does not exist.

There are more, of course, please have a look at Special:Contributions/Sc4900. Please stop this editor, zie's run amok! :P

Regards,xC | ☎ 06:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this guy is doing it as some sort of experiment or bet: to see how far he can go writing unverifyable stuff without hinderance.

This reminds me of a similar incident that happened with Nature magazine a few years back. They had published an article from a researcher who wanted to prove that you just have to write anything that seems scientific, with a lot of jargon for Nature to publish it even if it didn't make sense. He then promptly went to the press having "proved" his theory ; to the great embararrasment of Nature magazine.

I feel this guy is also trying the same. I suggest that he be blocked immediately and the articles deleted. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 06:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Further update:

• Sc4900 had added nonsense to the Priyanka Chopra article.
• Kareena Kapoor was also defaced - one,two.
• This edit shows addition of the same non-existant films.
• Esha Deol also suffered - see this edit.

Clearly, this editor is trying to disrupt the bio and film pages. I've given about a dozen references proving zie's (mis)behaviour. What will it require for an admin to end this disruption, and block this vandal?

Any guidance in this matter would be appreciated. Regards, xC | ☎ 06:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

These movies have been made up by Sc4900 -

• Kaal 2
• Kabhie Jeene
• Sashank
• Killer (hindi film)
• The Time Machine (hindi film)
• Untitled Sangeeth Sivan Project
• Sashank Mavayya

This page is also entirely made up by Sc4900 - Shashank (hero)

How many more nonsensical edits will we have to revert? When will this vandal be blocked?

I was blocked for a revert war on Rani Mukherjee, when I was trying to cleanup the article, remove POV and throw out fangush. Here this vandal's given free reign and allowed to vandalize for almost a week. His first edit as a registered editor was on 16 April, 2007. However vandalism of this nature has been affecting Bollywood bios for many weeks now, thanks to several anon IPs. It may be the same, or someone else, fact is today is the 21st of April. Its been five days (minimum) and nothing has been done yet.

There is a fatal flaw in the system. Vandals, trolls and malactors are given respect, whereas those who are here to actually create an encyclopedia, and to do meaningful work, are slapped in the face and not given the support needed to do the work they need to do. - RickK

Best regards,xC | ☎ 07:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

User:131.215.220.112 and User:Michaelbusch and Teslascope

• Me and User:Michaelbusch (a graduate at Cal Tech University ... this info becomes useful below) have had our debates over Topics in ufology , and I had previously had added Teslascope to the Topics in ufology which was later removed by User:Michaelbusch here [82] ... the problem is that after the Teslascope link was removed from Topics in ufology, the Teslascope article was deleted very quickly and I didnt even get a change to actually re-write and add citation to the article which someone else had previously written ... so I re-wrote the article and added good citation (including a classic 1931 Time magazine citation and a more specific Scientific American citation with the actual page number and what was actually said ... not what the previous writer of the article seems to have partially made up) ... after republishing the Teslascope article it was resubmitted for deletion because it had been deleted in the past, and the deletion request was submitted by User:131.215.220.112 (which is a Cal Tech School IP) and I instantly saw there may be a connection between User:131.215.220.112 and User:Michaelbusch and I am very saddned because it seems my re-write of the article was just ignored and it was requested for deletion without any reasoning... I thought I should report it because it felt "fishy" if you catch my drift on this one? (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 20:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak for Michaelbusch, but the complaining editor Nima Baghaei is currently at Way-More-Than-3RR on Topics in ufology [83]. Gavia immer (talk) 15:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Constant attack from user:MarshallBagramyan and user:Fedayee

Upon advise of Arbcom member Thatcher131 I filed RfC request for page Armenian Revolutionary Federation. During deliberations, instead of discussion, my opponents User:MarshallBagramyan and user:Fedayeeare continuesly making personal attacks

• 1 - [84]
• 2 - [85]
• 3 - [86]

--Dacy69 22:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, but wtf is this? Why don't you stop whining and engage in some conversations. Complaining isn't getting you anywhere and your falsified accusations are inimical to your own cause.

We have already wasted enough of the Administrators' time. What are you really reporting? What personal attacks? Stop considering Armenian editors as your opponents and stop poisoning the well, all of us had a difficult arbitration case; why are you continuing with this? I am willing to discuss when you stop considering Armenian editors as your opponents, when you stop making such remarks: “You are just desperately trying to protect this page from truth.”[87] Or “Editors who refuses to go for DR perhaps have poor reasoning or simply are afraid and protecting pages just like they own them.” [88] Or stop accusing me of ignoring history because I disagree with you. “Fedayee - You don't know the history of that period well.” [89]

Stop dismissing authors because of them being Armenian: “Well, how Armenian origin author Bournatian is reliable.” [90]. Stop considering Armenian editors as your opponents, like the above, or like this “Opponents think that some sources are politically charged. I agree to remove some of them - like Papazian. But the opponent editors seems are not willing to accept any edit in this line from me.” [91] Or this: “I made edit, opponents questions its reliability. I am ready to prove it. That's it. I have 5 references. I am ready to stand behind them and support them with additional references.” [92]

Start measuring your own words and stop accusing organizations of extermination because of them being Armenian (“participation of ARF in terrorist activity and extermination of civilians”) [93]

You already reported us to Tatcher [94], [95], [96]. You already reported us to Arbitrator Kirill [97], [98], [99].

You have reported us here, where will it be next. Fedayee and I were able to debate with people who disagreed with us without major complaints, if there is something wrong it could very well be that your behavior. You came without discussion, you added something very controversial. If you were really expecting to improve the article you would have came and debated with us. You preferred threatening us with this kind of mentality: “If you don’t accept my wording, I will do thist” and started accusing us of suppressing the truth. Hasn't the ArbCom taught you anything?--MarshallBagramyan 23:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. There's only one common denominator here.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 23:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I second all Marshall has said, it is exactly what is happening. All that user:Dacy69 has been doing is creating more rift and tensions (how he is doing this is covered by Marshall above). All the reporting games he tries so he could game the system and "silence his opponents" (opponents being a word Dacy69 likes to use, as if we are playing a game or in a battleground...) and all those "this scholar/author is pro-Armenian, he must be bad" dismissals do not help the situation. - Fedayee 12:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It is all started with you and Fedayee. You just deleted my edit even without any explanation. After I comlained you step forward with accusation along ethnic lines. So, you are asking why I haven't debated? Whole ARF talkpage is discussion - look around. But you again - over and over make attacks on editor's personality.

Opponent is a word for person who have different opinion. That's it.

As far as Bournation is concerned - this remarks related to NPOV. I don't have anything against Bournatian. But in issues like this he can be biased. Apparantly we can't use Azeri author for that article. Would you agree to use?

You are refusing mediation. And complaining why I am not engaged? I filed RfC exactly for the purpose of discussion. And what? You and Fedayee continued personal attacks instead of discussion content. this is because you haven't been a part of Arbcom, and Fedayee did not draw lessons from it.--Dacy69 00:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You never debated on the rational of your wording; you soapboxed the page and then filed for an RfC. We already debated on this particular subject before the arbitration. You came along and threw something and justified that edit by saying that you had provided 5 sources, with the rational of us either taking it or being reported. The discussion you so much talk about has little to do with the edit you have been trying to enforce, but was to use the talk page as a soapbox and pushing us in this too.

Bournoutian is a Western scholar, you could have provided a western Azerbaijani scholar who was peer reviewed and was not accused of bias; you were never prevented in doing it. But you kept accusing scholars because ethnically, they happen to be Armenian. You did this for months and you continue doing this even after arbitration. You are heating the atmosphere and burning it like hell; you are attacking others and blaming them ,then leveling false charges against them.

I refused mediation for a good reason; I refused to your misconception of what mediation is. You implicitly claimed that mediation will prove you right; you won’t be able to convince me to try mediation when you are unwilling to concede anything because such mediation will be a waste of time. I won’t throw my time like this for something which will at the end be a failure (because your mentality of "my way or highway" and the way you view Armenian editors as if we are enemies) for one article. Stop viewing Wikipedia as a battleground.--MarshallBagramyan 01:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I'm not a member of the Arbitration committee, but a clerk. My role in enforcing these kinds of disputes is as any other administrator, except that I seem to be willing to take on some disputes that other admins won't touch. I'll look at this tonight I guess, although anyone else feel free to step in. Thatcher131 02:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Jiminy Christmas. I want all of you in this edit war to read [100]. Come back here when you have, and comment on it. There may be a test. I continue to be astonished at the rampant ... immaturity, that is easily the best word for it. This is such a basic, mindless "us vs them" argument, that it's anathema to the very notion of an encyclopedia. It discards all logic in exchange for blind emotion.

Maybe we need enforced mediation/handlers here, and ban these users from all related articles; require them to use the talk page and be civil about it, and their handler will post requested changes. Yes, it's a lot of labor, but the alternatives are less sound - total banning, blacklisting them from all related articles altogether, whitelisting approved Armenian/Azeri editors for this suite of articles, or letting this mindless prattle continue.

I propose that, if these fights have not calmed down in the least within 60 days of the arbitration ruling, that it be brought back before Arbcom for stronger and wider penalties. --Golbez 08:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect Golbez, the only immaturity and blind emotion I see, is all that user:Dacy69 has been doing, which is covered by Marshall above. All the reporting games he tries so he could game the system and "silence his opponents" (opponents being a word Dacy69 likes to use, as if we are playing a game or in a battleground...) and all those "this scholar is Armenian or this scholar is pro-Armenian, he must be bad" kind of ethnic divisions he creates... - Fedayee 12:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the link I gave? --Golbez 10:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

See my answer here. Thatcher131 14:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Yanksrule80

Resolved

 – Killed 'em—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Yanksrule80 (talk · contribs) is uploading several images of himself which he is properly releasing to PD, but then is using the images in several articles which are only tangentially related to the subject of the image. Is his activity proper, or is this verging on vanity? Corvus cornix 23:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't hurt anything where there aren't images, but it does when he replaces valid images with his own, and some are just out of place. SchmuckyTheCat 23:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The images, after a brief review aren't him, unless he's a shapeshifter, going from a stocky, scruffy brunette to an anorexic much younger blonde, and so on. This guy probably lifted half a dozen MySpace images of his friends, and is posting them. The netire load should be speedied for privacy and copyright reasons ASAP. Probably should also ban the user too. ThuranX 00:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Nom'd them for normal deletion, would prefer admin act to speedy them? ThuranX 01:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Requesting guidance and/or mentoring

While patrolling recent changes a few days ago, I noticed this edit. Because it seemed whimsical and was linked to a completely unrelated article, I left the {{uw-joke1}} template on the talk page of the anonymous editor here and reverted the edit.

The anon's response to this (as it sometimes is, of course) was to leave an abusive message on my talk page and to restore the edit, with a rude edit summary for good measure.

In conjunction with another editor, I continued to warn and revert. Along the way, the anon vandalized my user page. I reported them to WP:AIV, which resulted in a block.

I signed off for the night.

A few minutes later, the anon restored his edits from another IP, again with an abusive edit summary. The other patroller reverted, and the anon returned from a third IP.

The next time I logged in, I noticed the new activity and reported it to WP:AIV again. In response, Pilotguy implemented a rangeblock. I reverted the anon's most recent changes.

Yesterday, User:Anonywiki appeared and restored the anon's edits, using the edit summary to refer to me as a troll and agreeing a bit too conspicuously with the anon on the article's talk page.

I don't think there's any question that it's the same person, but I also think that along the way this may have evolved from a vandalism incident to a content dispute. I'm not comfortable reverting the edits again. They're silly and stupid, but I can see how some people may view them as valid. On the other hand, I feel that the user's edits at this point are clearly a variation on WP:POINT, as well as a probable violation of WP:SOCK.

After spending a year or so quietly editing articles of interest, I've only recently become more involved in change patrol and I'm still learning about best practices. I'd like some feedback on whether my actions have been appropriate and whether additional action (preferably not involving me) is warranted. Thank you. Dppowell 01:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the incivility of the anon-editor, I think the reference was valid. The edit war that followed however, is defenitely a candidate for Wikipedia:lamest edit wars. You don't want to end up there. So my advice: let it rest. --Edokter (Talk) 12:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Recommended response to possible joke about the Virginia massacre

The only edit from 75.8.60.237 (talk • contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • RBLs • block user • block log) was to state that the incident was "awesome". While this may be simply juvenile humor in poor taste, Wikipedia could look very bad if this turned out to be something. The IP addresses traces back to Green Bay, Wisconsin. Does anyone think we shoud alert the police there? JoshuaZ 02:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

No, why would we? Even if they said "I'm going to do this too!" I wouldn't think we should do it. Think how easily we would be disrupted if that could happen. Prodego ^talk 02:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Concur. Vandalism is vandalism. We get people writing "kill all niggers" on the nigger article on a regular basis, that seems as disturbing to me as this example. Issue the standard warning. Rockpocket 02:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Apply common sense liberally here. Lots of anonymous nitwits come here to stir the pot and see what boils. Barring specificity (a location, a plan of attack, a manifesto or screed mentioning names or places, and so on), assume it's another moron, revert and warn as per 'I hate XYZ' idiots of all sorts. ThuranX 03:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

We are not the GDI. Wikipedia gets countless vandalism on a daily basis. If we were to alert the police per every case of vandalism things would turn ugly pretty fast. -- Cat ^chi? 03:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Alert the police? For what crime? Having no taste? --Golbez 08:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It's worth noting that in Wictionary the first and formal-language meaning of "awesome" is "causing awe or terror". Thus, "Causing terror" is the simple and literal meaning of the term in formal (if now arguably slightly archaic) English. One might as well call the police if the editor used the adjective "terrorist". "Remarkable", "causing excitement", etc. comprise the second meaning of awesome listed in Wictionary -- a meaning that in some dictionaries is still considered slang. If our policies require a "formal" tone, we are obligated to consider the formal as well as the colloquial meanings of words. Best, --Shirahadasha 19:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Alright, saw the rest of this IP's "contributions", it's a vandal all right. Best, --Shirahadasha 20:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Of course it is a stupid vandal but Awesome does mean scary, terrifying, bewildering, frightening which of those adjectives does not describe this tragedy? In my view, If there is bad taste here it is having a page so soon on this subject while emotions are so poignant - at least let the dead be buried and a decent interval elapse. This is an encyclopedia not a news program. Giano 20:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad

• Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan
• Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Artaxiad

User has been creating even more sockpuppets. As of this post two waves of sockpuppets have been confirmed and blocked. I have already requested clarification on the matter by arbcom but in the mean time was wondering if measures can be taken to minimize disruption - whatever these measures may be... -- Cat ^chi? 03:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

What is about your socks. You should check this realty too. --Bohater 12:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Trust me, if I had sockpuppets, I would know about them. I find your overall attitude disruptive. -- Cat ^chi? 20:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Bohater

Stalking and disturbing the Cat in all the areas of en:wiki and also in common. One evidence is at above section.Must.^{T C} 13:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

MyWikiBiz style PR accounts need blocking

Please block Century1901 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Centurypr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and delete all their contribs. Their contributions have been nothing but blatant spamvertising for various people. They have admitted to being a PR company, see here. This sort of behaviour is completely unacceptable. MER-C 03:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Also see [101] - Alison^☺ 03:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Blocked both; not quite sure what should be deleted, though.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 04:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I speedied both of the articles under G11, as they were both severely POV astroturfing efforts. For example, the first line from Howard Fine: "Howard Fine is one of the most sought after acting coaches in the entertainment industry". Q.E.D. // Sean William 04:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is another resumearticle that needs attention: Carter Oosterhouse. Anynobody 04:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Isn't that the same Carter who is part of the presenting/makeover team of Extreme Makeover: Home Edition? Seems article-worthy. - Mgm|^(talk) 11:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

  Stubbed by Ryulong. // Sean William 21:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

This is what it looked like when I found it: resume. I don't think it should be deleted, but the version I cited violates Verifiability (saying stuff like "always excelled at sports" is hard to prove), Reliable sources (The stuff that was cited came from his website) and was written by a paid representative of a pr company which itself is also several violations. Ryūlóng (竜龍) did the right thing. Anynobody 01:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

User:B.Soto and Rob Liefeld and WP:POINT

User:B.Soto was blocked yesterday for 3RR on Rob Liefeld, specifically for introducing the phrase "most hated man in comics" into the lead, without any kind of real citation, and without edit summaries. His reverts here (rv my edit), here (209.214.97.66's edit), and here (User:Mordicai's edit). And he continually deleted {{fact}} tags put on the statement in an attempt at a compromise. While he was blocked he removed the live block notice from his user page once, and then did it again after an admin specifically warned him not to.

Okay, so that's yesterday's news. But as soon as his block is over, he immediately reverts the article again, replaces the POV language, and leaves a deliberately misleading edit summary, saying "Cited valid source for the original lead-in version", when no source has been cited at all, valid or otherwise. So my question is this...do I (and the other editors on the article) just continue to revert this down? Continually edit-warring him into 3RR does not seem a terribly healthy or productive way to maintain an article. I am requesting a further block of this user. Ford MF 06:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Blocked 48h for gaming the system and repeatedly violating BLP, let us know if this continues. --Golbez 08:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

His additions aren't deliberately disruptive, but they violate the attribution and neutral point of view policies solely due to the manner they are added in — I've given a message on the talk page further explaining this. Michaelas¹⁰ 09:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that they aren't deliberately disruptive - if he wasn't using false edit summaries. --Golbez 09:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd assume good faith when saying he did cite his sources on the talk page and probably wasn't aware of properly citing them inside the article itself. A protection would be a better solution here than a block, to allow him discuss his (rather valid) changes. Michaelas¹⁰ 09:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Well now he has a few hours to read WP:CITE. I will not object if others want to unblock him, but hopping right back in to the reverting as his first edit when getting back from 3RR? No, sorry, not good form. I am assuming good faith - I'm assuming he's horribly ignorant of our standards and pracices. He has another 46 hours to learn them before my block expires. --Golbez 11:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm shortening the block to time served. --Golbez 11:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

User_talk:JEWSDIDWTC_is_an_invalid_nick_on_Freenode...

JEWSDIDWTC_is_an_invalid_nick_on_Freenode... (talk - contribs) is indef-blocked but continues to post repeated and egregious WP:NPA vios on his User Talk Page, including (at one point) a "hitlist" on various editors. [102] Seems to be using massive HTML tags in an attempt to make the page so laggy as to be uneditable. User also just today reverted another editor's WP:AfD template on the same page. [103]

I'm entirely uncertain precisely who's domain this falls into or what the options are (since he's already indef-blocked), but it seems to pretty clearly violate Jimbo's directive on WP:NPA vios in User Spaces, to say nothing of the "hitlist" reference... Bullzeye^{Complaint Dept./Contribs)} 09:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Page deleted and protected from recreation. - Aksi_great (talk) 09:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Nothing to see here, move along. MER-C 10:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Rules on RfC

Need help in keeping this RfC in accord with the rules: [104]. --Mihai cartoaje 10:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

This individual seems to be continually attacking DPeterson in a variety of venues. See above filing by him.JohnsonRon 17:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not the one who filed the RfC [105]. --Mihai cartoaje 06:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

These are accounts which are reminiscent of a special-interests agenda in the field of psychiatry. They are probably different editors, as shown by this checkuser. Until recently, they had the strategy of imitating each other, trying to trick one or more other editors into calling them sockpuppets. --Mihai cartoaje 09:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

sock puppet of banned user Cleargoing

User:Cleargoing2 is a sock please ban.--Lucy-marie 11:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Disruption

Makalp (talk · contribs) is still being disruptive after I filed a complaint he needs to abide by the rules. He reverts me with no discussion if I revert him he will revert me automatically so I bring this to admin attention not the first time. The context is not third party nor neutral. [106]. I told the info adder what to do in his talk page and on the articles talk while Makalp just reverts causing edit wars. Ashkani 12:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Also here he insists on adding "Terrorism" [107] Ashkani 12:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Repplied at below( Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Ashkani).Must.^{T C} 13:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Ashkani

Distruptive in edits and in attractions. I dont know what is the motivation behind. Above; in ("Distruption") section Please note His/her tone; He/She supplies fake evidences. I only reverted back to original, His/Her unnecessary Rv's.

• He/She is playing with Wiki rules.
• He/She made personal attacks to me.
• He/She is stoling the community's time.
• Here the evidences;User_talk:Michaelas10#Page_Protection.3B_Kaymakl.C4.B1_Monastery and Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard#User:Makalp

Regards.Must.^{T C} 13:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

There not fake evidences your still adding it when you revert, unless you reverted while not looking which is disruptive you don't even discuss it while I did and contacted the person who added it your nonconstructive edits are helping no one. Ashkani 13:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Your still being disruptive by trying to attack me, I file a report on you than you file one on me this isn't a cat and mouse game explain your actions. Ashkani 13:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ashkani was being rather disruptive yesterday. He undid my addition of tags to User:Istia[108] but then reverted himself after Frederick day asked why he did it[109]. I then asked him how he even ended up there anyway[110]. There was a back-and-forth where I asked him again, and he would respond 'tell me why you think I did'[111]. I continued to demand an answer, so eventually an IP posted a rude message on my talk page with edit summary 'answer'[112]. I can only assume that this was Ashkani answering under an IP. As the entire incident was a disruptive waste of time because of his conduct, and also because he appears to have finished it with a rude post where he calls me 'badnam boy' and an idiot, I think he needs something educational. The Behnam 18:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

User is a possible (bordering on likely) sockpuppetof Artaxiad according to recent checkuser. -- Cat ^chi? 20:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely someone else who has been around here before - check FPaS's conversation with him [113]. I really had enough of all these socks and users who keep on resurrecting themselves in different forms - if you are banned, you are banned people! I even had a previously banned user who left a note at my talk two months ago along the lines "yes, it's me, I like trolling and morphing into various ids all the time". I am seriously getting paranoid and seeing socks around every corner! :) Is Wikipedia a madhouse? Am I really me or am I a sock of myself?

As for the case at hand, it could be a wide array of previously banned users. ParthianShots (Ex-Surena), Ararat arev, Artaxiad, GreekWarrior - we aren't short of trolls.. :) And Mustafa, please be careful not to fall into a provocative trap by socks. Dikkatli ol, tuzak kurup yasaklatmaya calisanlar var. In fact, I am seriously thinking that certain users who have been around for a while could be long-time parallel socks of other users as well. This whole thing is really getting weird. I suppose the whole ArbCom decision with Ar-Az will continue to create headaches for a while as well.. How many socks is Artaxiad up to now? :) Not to mention the utter and boring harassment by Ararat arev who has already hit 150 socks I think.. Baristarim 21:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The Behnam that is not my ip. Ashkani 22:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting point. How he/she knows?.Must.^{T C} 10:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

sock puppetry on IFD discussion

There is an issue with sock puppetry regarding a discussion at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2007 April 14 and specifically around item 1.62 Image:Coapon.JPG. The keep !votes are by either single purpose accounts or an anon IP. Tagging of the comments with the {{spa}} template was reversed by one of the editors.--User:Gay Cdn (talk) (Contr) 13:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ouch, there's a lot of it going on there. The user who uploaded the picture, Annrex (talk · contribs) was blocked indefinitely about a week ago for persisting in his irrelevent criticism of the Polish Wikipedia (where he has also been blocked) here at ANI. Will (aka Wimt) 13:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser called for? --kingboyk 10:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

On second thoughts, they're so obviously single purpose sockpuppets they can all be blocked and the !votes removed. It might be an idea if the IFD gets closed now (as delete, obviously), if somebody wants to do it. --kingboyk 10:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandal's move needs reverteing

New user/vandal Moved artcioel about band to bogus name Andy Mabbett 13:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. You don't need sysop buttons, which I don't have, just move the article back. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 13:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism warnings being changed by vandal

I noticed ([114]) this and reverted it. The vandal has subsequently reverted me, with an edit summary that I've vandalised his talk page. Admin intervention requested. Furthermore, if my action was inappropriate, I'd be grateful for constructive criticism. --Dweller 13:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Well, it's his talkpage and I think any admin will see through this very easily if he starts vandalizing article space again. I say block the next time he vandalizes. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

He was already indef blocked. I've tagged his user page as such, and protected his talk page so he can't write more nonsense there. Blatant vandalism like this can go to WP:AIV in future (but check the block log first). --kingboyk 13:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, good point. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Whether it's his talkpage or not, nobody is allowed to change other people's Talk page comments to say something the originator didn't intend. Corvus cornix 15:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Persistent abuse by IP 64.83.143.13

Please help with the repeated and persistent abuse from the IP 64.83.143.13! Please see the numerous warnings and previous blocks at User_talk:64.83.143.13. Вasil | talk 15:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Threat of violence by IP 82.47.160.142

Someone with this IP threated to shoot up Niagra Falls here. I think making claims as such goes beyond vandalism. Someone may want to look in to this IP address. —MJCdetroit 15:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ordinary vandalism IMO. We should ignore it. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Possible incoming Colbert-related vandalism; be careful

See this video. Its funny, but in it he asked that his viewers "make [this poem] into the most famous poem in America!" Watch Samurai song or Samurai Song. I'm not sure whether its notable enough for an article, as it is a real poem, but especially if it is, we need to be careful. —Dark•Shikari^[T] 16:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If it gets bad, they can always be salted for a few days. Natalie 19:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Message found on Recent changes

User talk:Crazytales This could be related to recent vandalism. --Savant13 16:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? My Nancy Dre- er, Hardy Boys gene is on vacation today. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 16:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, this is pertaining to me. How about dropping a message on my talk page?? Anyway, I posted in an earlier AN/I thread about that user - scroll; up. ~Crazytales 21:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Anon-user removing warnings from talk page

See User talk:85.233.183.210, and [115]. --DrBat 16:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It's still not illegal for people to remove warnings, partially because you can assume that if they remove it, they've read it, so the warning has done it's job. If you want a 'permanent record', use an edit summary that references the problem. There's an argument that if you have to add a new warning, it might be useful to recover the old ones for context, but really, is it worth edit warring about? It just escalates the situation... -- nae'blis 17:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a big deal. The warnings are in the history and he or she is (within reasonable bounds) free to edit his or her Talk page with great latitude. --ElKevbo 17:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

"Demonstration" vandalism?

User:Tusitala is making "demonstration" edits to Yosemite Sam [116], Lyman Maine [117], and Saint Fina [118] with comments such as "Actually Handicapped people. Temporary change made for demonstration purposes not feasible in sandbox. Please leave until 20 APR 2007, 15:00 EDT. Tusitala.". Earlier change to Yosemite Sam was done anonymously, which I reverted and left a message on the IP talk page; Tusitala has emailed me since making these new edits. I don't believe vandalism for demonstration with the intent to repair is any less vandalism, but would like some admin input. -- JHunterJ 17:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

"Vandalism for demonstration purposes" sounds like vandalism, plus disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted his or her edits. I empathize but vandalism is not an appropriate way to teach information literacy. --ElKevbo 17:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Tusitala appears to be an educator, and in cases like this it might be helpful to direct people to the WikiProject Classroom coordination--if we can get professors and teachers to focus on the positive aspects of Wikipedia, we just might get a crop of new, constructive editors. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I have left him a note. Perhaps we should add a section on 'don't do that' to the WikiProject, with examples... PS. Done.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

i suggest someone pull a Zoe El hombre de haha 20:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Huh?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Look, if this teacher continues to illustrate to his or her students vandalism on Wikipedia through example, we can just illustrate our enforcement of our policies through example - by blocking the account. Natalie 22:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks, vandalism etc on user talk:DukeXI

There is quite a mess on User talk:DukeXI. There is a combination of vandalism, personal attacks, uncivility, soapboxing and most likely some other innaproriate behavior. If an administrator could sort through it and impose apprioriate sactions or warnings I'd appreciate it. (I have no personal involvement) Thanks -- Monty845 17:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the personal attacks, but the talk needs to be salted by an admin, if he continues to add attacks and other nonsense to it. --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 22:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk page full-protected for a few days to prevent personal attacks / timewasting. User is already indefblocked - Alison^☺ 23:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Recreation of Spam articles

Last day I marked three new articles made by User:Megaforcemedia as candidate of speedy deletion. They were quickly deleted, now he/she recreated them. What should I do? --Pejman47 18:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Those pages are: Ahmed Obali , Gunaz TV , Saleh Ildirim and by the way see this too. --Pejman47 18:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Could go through the template warnings. {{nn-warn}}, {{recreated}}, {{uw-create1}}, {{uw-create2}}, {{uw-create3}}, {{uw-create4}}, etc. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 18:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Request to block sockpuppet of banned editor

Resolved

 – reviewed and blocked - Alison^☺ 22:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

216.194.4.132 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is a clear sockpuppet of Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), please block. Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Another C&P Page Move to fix

Someone has c&p'd Rusty Allen to Rustee Allen, then redirected the former to the latter. Can someone check the correct spelling of this name and fix this so the page history is preserved? exolon 18:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

According to this, it's Rusty. I've never seen it spelled any other way.

Ispy1981 19:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Both sources cited in the article use "Rustee" so i moved it there and re-joined the page histories. Didn't see your note until afterwards. Please discuss moving back on the talk page, and use WP:RM if you decide to move back and need halep, or leave me a msg and I'll be glad to help. DES ^(talk) 19:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi there! I'm the user who redirected the page, although I admit I didn't know the proper way to redirect. Rustee's own official home page spells it "Rustee," so I assumed that's the correct spelling. [119] I'll gladly take back my edits if I'm wrong. Also, I didn't just do a hack "copy and paste" job. I spent a bit of time adding information to the original page, including the info box as well as a photo of Rustee (the page was pretty bare). THEN I copied it to the new page and redirected. I am new here, though, so if you have tips, please let me know! I just thought the article wasn't doing Rustee justice. Didn't mean to break any codes. Thanks! -- Sydscotch 21:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I commented on the talkpage, but I'm also commenting here. What it seems to me is that we have one person (Rustee Allen) going by two names at two different times. When he was with Sly and the Family Stone, he was "Rusty". Today, it appears, he is "Rustee". How does Wikipedia solve that? Do we leave the "Rustee" and redirect "Rusty" or go with the name he's more famously known by and redirect "Rustee"? I must admit, I'm a little rusty here. :)

--Ispy1981 22:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If you need a copy and paste move repaired in the future, you can list it on Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen. -- Kjkolb 14:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Xenophobic Attacks by User:Alex Kov

When talking about other peoples backgrounds and cultures are the following comments acceptable?

• Like insulting a whole ethnic group of 20 thousand Those so-called "Russian Cossacks" of Kuban are just a small part of Cossack traitors who supported Bolsheviks and Red killers.
• Go on, keep your allegiance to KGB-sort politician, those who have riped and mudered true Cossacks
• And finally threats I:ll still revert you POVish remark

With respect to WP:NPA I find such comments deeply insulting just because I happen to be a Cossack in way that this person does not like...'nuff said about who is right and wrong, but this is just appaling, and this user claims to be an educated historian. --Kuban Cossack 20:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

GowsiPowsi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can someone possibly have a polite word with this new editor please? I noticed he'd removed several redlinks, and left a polite message on his talk page. He then removed it without reply, and is continuing to remove redlinks. Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I've left him a little more detailed note, with a quick summary of WP:RED and a link to an MoS page about links as well. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 21:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

He's replied to both messages. So it looks like thisis resolved. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 21:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

User talk:zzuuzz

Could someone protect this as it is getting ridiculous. Thanks. GDonato (talk) 22:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Admins are like buses, you wait ages for one then three come along at once :-) GDonato (talk) 22:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Now that's what I call efficiency!! :-) Ryan Postlethwaite 22:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ha! Awesome :) I answered the call over on WP:RPP and hit the page at almost the exact second that Ryan did - Alison^☺ 22:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. -- zzuuzz^(talk) 22:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

While you are still here...Can someone semi-protect DerHexer's userpage, as it's getting destroyed by vandals, due to his anti-vandal work... --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 22:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Better to let the users request this themselves, here. Prodego ^talk 22:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ooops! Too late. The level of mindless vandalism was just ludicrous - Alison^☺ 22:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I have arrived! (Impersonator, need indef block for him/her/them/it/other.)

I recently stumbled across User:ThuramY, who has rather obviously set up an impersonation account. (Impersonating me, obviously.) I would appreciate an indef block with a delete and salt of his copies of my user and user talk pages. Thank you. ThuranX 22:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sending the request to AIV will be faster... --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 22:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

 Done - indefblocked & pages blanked. How utterly weird - they copied your entire user and talk pages - Alison^☺ 22:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

another sock of Cleargoing

User:Cleargoing3 is the latest sock please monitor the noel Edmonds page to catch future sock puppets and attack images which keep being uploaded.--Lucy-marie 22:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

AIV will be faster in the future for obvious sockpuppetry. I'm monitoring the page now. --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 22:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring over tags

I am having edit wars right now with another long time regular user User:Jim62sch over the appropriate placement of needed project tags at the article Noah's Ark. There are other serious neutrality disputes with the article, with concerns raised not only by me but several other editors. However the anti-religious point of view championed by other editorssuch as Jim62sch is getting out of hand. They say that people of faith are insignificant, therefore that POV doesn't count, and only theirs does, and since they consider religious POVs are all invalid, they say therefore I have no right to dispute the article and have reverted me to the point of 3RR by removing the NPOV tag. There needs to be a NPOV tag on the article, because several editors are disputing the neutrality, but they have the upper hand and are keeping the dispute tag from even showing on the article, because they have proclaimed themselves right and are denying the validity of the dispute. If the dispute cannot even be heard or acknowledged as a valid dispute, this will only end up in ArbCom. The second problem with Jim62sch is that I added the article's talkpage to WP:RELIGION because it is an article involving three major religions. Now he is edit warring with me by delisting it from the religion project. The WP:Religion banner certainly belongs there, since this is a belief currently found as part of the sacred texts of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and a number of other sects that call Noah a Prophet. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 22:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you for reporting yourself, your edits are indeed problematic, I am happy to confirm that Jim appears to be right in this case. Guy (Help!) 23:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to get some more opinions, sir. I am not reporting myself, I am reporting Jim. The article Noah's Ark unquestionable falls within the scope of WP:RELIGION as an article of faith in THREE of the major world religions. OIn what way is my adding it to the category problematic? The article itself is opinionated and POV, and I can name the other editors who agree with me on this, but we have been over-ruled by the likes of Jim who say the Bible is so unquestionably mythological that no one may disagree. I am not afraid to make my case before ArbCom because I am in the right, have done nothing wrong or problematic but try to achieve neutrality and an end to this blatant anti-religious bigotry, and my NPOV concerns with declaring the Bible and / or the Quran myths are still there. If they are not addressed, it will confirm the impression of many that Wikipedia is far from neutral and only a joke controlled by bigots and opinionated people. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

84.211.71.5

Suspected edit by a bot. He/She is removing legitimate fair use images at a impossible pace. See contributions--Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 23:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Blocked 24 hours. Martinp23 23:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

His edits replaced all the fair use images with Replace this image1.svg. Should the edits be reverted or left? --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 23:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Should we rollback their changes? Looks like (almost) all those Fair Use images are legit right now - Alison^☺ 23:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to roll them back. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 23:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Looking through the edits, it seems that he was iterating through various categories (or some other system) of Japanese musicians and bands, filling in the infobox with the "no image" placeholder (see [120]), seemingly regardless of whether something was there already or not. Mass rollback is probably appropriate here, as long as the images are checked after restoration (those that I've looked at seem to be valid uses). Thanks, Martinp23 23:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

All edits seem to be reverted. I just don't know how you guys rollback so fast, it was all done before I got there... --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 23:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Veinor is faster than any of us :) I didn't have a chance! - Alison^☺ 23:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Lots of twitch gaming really helps. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 23:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You got to be kidding...I was using 8 tabs and didn't get one edit in...Maybe I should play more games. --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 23:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the problem is. All of the images removed by 84.211.71.5 failed item #1 of Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria. I seriously doubt it is a bot. this edit where he pastes "| Img = Replace this image1.svg into the incorrect line looks like the result of human visual error to me. Also, in this edit he spontaneously also adds the {{unreferenced}} tag at the top. I am going to restore most, if not all, of 84.211.71.5's edits. Please unblock the IP address and apologize for assuming bad faith. — CharlotteWebb 05:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It seemed to be an obvious bot edit to me. Bots make mistakes, if the formatting of the article is wrong, which it is. No person could edit six times in one minute while retaining that amount of accuracy when checking the tag for fair use. Even someone with AWB couldn't edit so fast. --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 07:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Veinor reverted him fifty times in about 2 minutes. Fast editing is easy with a tabbed browser. Even if it is a bot (which I doubt because a real bot would have probably added the "unreferenced" tag to almost all of the articles, not just one or two) why would you revert it to restore images that have been tagged for deletion for roughly a week? — CharlotteWebb 07:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC

Reverting is far easier than making "real" edits, so I don't think you can compare the two quite so directly. Isn't accusing someone of making an assumption of bad faith, in itself an assumption of bad faith? (Not that WP:AGF is a suicide pact, IMO most good faith editors caught in such a situation would be understanding of the reasonable caution being exercised by blocking, hanging around discussing if something is a bot or not, or is doing damage may not be sensible if it genuinely is doing damage, unblocks are cheap if after looking it turns out all to be ok.) --pgk 08:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no excuse for personal attacks like this. The anonymous user 84.211.71.5 was removing copyright infringement (specifically a replaceable non-free image with no "fair use" rationale), because he apparently understands image policy and is perhaps more willing to actually enforce it than some of our admins. pgk could you please review the edits, as you have suggested, and unblock the IP address? — CharlotteWebb 08:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

In the instance you point out, note that there was no edit summary on the deletion of the image by 84.211.71.5. I don't think that it is so totally unwarranted to believe that an anon IP deleting material without any explanation might just resemble to a very large degree 'vandalism'. No excuse? Would you care to rethink that? Shenme 08:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he knows image policy but doesn't know the English language (shrug). — CharlotteWebb 09:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Charlotte. The anon's edits were good. We need all the help we can get in fighting fair-use abuse. I'm unblocking. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, but what has that got to do with the blocking admin? They certainly didn't do that revert. Really that is actually part of my point, "bad faith", "vandalism", "abusive" etc. are terms which seem to be becoming increasingly commonly thrown around, they are rapidly all degenerating to the same meaning, "did something I disagreed with" --pgk 09:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Point taken, but Charlotte's initial point still stands. Martinp should have checked more carefully whether the anon's edits were in fact good before he blocked him. He made a blatantly mistaken judgment when he said that the anon was removing "legitimate" fair-use images. And if he was concerned about it being a bot he could easily have given the anon a talkpage message and see how he'd respond first. His blocking without a warning and without careful fact-checking was indeed a failure to assume good faith. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Looking at martinp's comments above, it looks to me there was an apparent problem with a bot, he blocked, within 10 minutes he had looked more closely and believed he had seen some pattern to the changes (going through a category), which then suggests the replacements may be little more than automated rather than given due consideration. The bot policy states "Sysops should block bots, without hesitation...". Now if I agree with Martinp23's interpretation of the situation or not isn't that important, I do believe that he was acting reasonably, and as I say in my original comment, most people (who are also interested in building the encyclopedia) are actually pretty understanding when mistakes happen, or actions are over cautious. So yes the real thrust of my comment was about being constructive in commenting on other peoples actions, and yes that cuts both ways (so in terms of comments about the IPs actions also). (As an aside when I posted I hadn't realised the block was still outstanding, if I had done perhaps I'd have looked closer at the edits and perhaps unblocked.) --pgk 10:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Martin is a member of the Bot Approvals Group. Somebody here posted that what looked like an unauthorised bot was active. He blocked, pending a response from the operator (or editor, if manual). All the person has to do is say "I'm not a bot" or "I forgot to log in but actually have bot approval". End of story. Please don't make assumptions that are not supported by the facts, as I know for a fact Martin is very much in the "free images" camp (we discussed it only recently). --kingboyk 09:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC) (e/c)

I said that I suspected it was a bot, not that it was confirmed to be a bot. The only reason I put this here is because I wasn't sure. And also, I did not refer to his edits as vandalism. --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 10:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

<rant> I suppose I should help to clear up why I blocked the user. Basically, it was making many bot like edits in quick succession, removing all sort of images - not just those tagged for deletion, replacing them with a placeholder. As kingboyk stated, all it would have taken would be a message on the IPs talk page demonstrating that he/she was an editor acting manually for me to unblock. As is also noted above, I *am* an admin who will go around deleting images, and am not one of those "nobody's going to sue, so who cares" folks, and hold images to a high standard. That said, a majority of the images removed were ready for deletion under some criterion, though there are a couple of somewhat confusing cases in the contribs where images are removed where they have no deletion tags, hence my concern about the user running a bot. As can be seen above (and my contribs), I didn't revert an of the user's edits, and did advise some degree of caution above - by the time I had done so, all of the edits had been rolled back. This was a borderline case, and had I seen certain edits when I took a quick look through the contribs, I would probably not have blocked - unfortunately this time I didn't see those edits, only "incriminating" ones, which lead me to block. If I must go for full diclosure to stop people screaming "bad faith!" at me, I shall: I pened several (c 20) of the user's edits in tabs in firefox, choosing these randomly from the contribs list. Whilst checking through them, FF crashed and I had to kill it. The impression I had got up until then was that the users was arbitrarily inserting the placeholder image, regardless of the status of the image (as tagged - though I would agree in almost all cases that the images were bad, even if not tagged as such). When I ghads restarted FF, I went to issue a block, and gave one based on the facts I had at the time, before posting back here. I took some time thinking about the block, and took it in the best of faith, so do resent the accusations of bad faith. After the block, I started to look carefully through the contribs again, following which FF crashed, so I went to bed :). Pgk and Kingboyk do sum up rather well, and in hindsight I do regret that I blocked, but there were a number of factors present at the time, which hindsight (what I wonderful thing) takes no account of. As it is, the IP is (probably rightly) unblocked now, and if I was being over-cautious at the time, I see it as nothing to be ashamed of. </rant> Martinp23 11:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Spontaneous block of DreamGuy by David Gerard, please review

On April 15, 216.165.158.7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked for a month for POV-pushing by Theresa Knott, which I thought rather draconian, and reduced to one week. ANI discussion here. This is the IP of DreamGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), as he has amply acknowledged. It's not an abusive sock. My week's block was about to run out today, when David Gerard re-blocked for a month, giving the reason that the IP is "a sock of a banned user" (? no), and that it has been making ""Continuing personal attacks using talk page as platform". (I agree DreamGuy has been surly on the talkpage; blocked users tend to be.) David has also blanked and semiprotected the talkpage. So, a one-month block plus the talkpage gag? Was this guy making personal attacks to the extent that it disrupted the encyclopedia? On his own talkpage, that nobody has any need to go to and be disrupted by...? Well, I think that would be an overstatement, please check the History and see if you agree. Theresa, prompted by DreamGuy's old adversary Elonka, has subsequently blocked the DreamGuy account for a month also. The DreamGuy block actually seems merely redundant, as a comparison of the IP block periods with DreamGuy's contributions will show that DreamGuy is blocked when his IP is. But perhaps, if Theresa's double block hadn't been placed, he could have used User talk:DreamGuy to communicate, say post an unblock request? Not sure if that would have been technically possible. It's moot now, anyway.

David's block seems excessively spontaneous to me. I'm hoping he will reconsider it. A hurried proceeding is suggested by the way he placed it last thing before going offline, apparently — I have posted on his page without response, and his contributions list ends with the 216.165.158.7 semiprotection — and also without a block message and without any report here.

Please note that DreamGuy, while not our sweetest-tempered user, is a constructive editor and certainly no vandal. As I wrote in the original ANI thread a week ago, he has done good work for the encyclopedia for a long time, in staunchly resisting spam, nonsense, conspiracy theories, and pseudoscience. A silent phasing-out of this useful contributor by means of longer and longer blocks is quite wrong in my book. Take him to WP:RFAr if measures are needed. Or perhaps a mentor? Anyway, this is no way of doing it. That's what I think, what do you think? Please review. Bishonen | talk 00:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC).

You know, DreamGuy may have his share of positive contributions, but so do most people who get blocked. From what I've seen, DG is obsessive about Elonka and actively tries to remove each and every mention of Elonka and her works from Wikipedia, taking the opportunity to spread incivility and bad will. Besides, I've always heard that RfAr (and our dependence on it) indicates that we're unable to solve our own problems.

DG should have no problem posting to his talk page, blocks or no blocks. If he expresses a willingness to discontinue his problematic editing patterns, he should be unblocked and monitored. What *isn't* productive is shrugging off these problems as "not being our sweetest-tempered editor". Philwelch 01:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but you are being overly naive regarding this case, Bishonen. Both the anon and DreamGuy are not productive editors, and their negative impact far outweights the positive ones. The Wikipedia isn't in such desperate need of editors that we have to take whatever comes... we can easily let go of editors who, despite having some postive contributions, are both agressive and disruptive. Not to mention completely impolite and confrontational. I don't know about other admins, but I am perfectly willing to move forwards with a community block or other such radical measure in case Gerard's decision is overturned. --Sn0wflake 02:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless I am missing something, the IP block for being a "sock of a banned user" appears to be based on a factual error, in that DreamGuy was not blocked or banned and no one else has been identified whom 216 could be a sock of. The necessity for the block and its length should be reassessed, after taking this correction into account, by the blocking administrator, whose attention should be drawn to this thread if it has not already been. I do not see that at this point, a case for a continued block, let alone a block of one month, has been made out. Note that I have not reviewed all the contributions and I am not opining that a further block could not be justified, simply that it has not been thus far. Having said that, enough concerns have been raised about the user's editing under both the DreamGuy and IP accounts that it would be good to see improvements in his approach whenever he resumes editing. Newyorkbrad 03:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Philwelch: "DG should have no problem posting to his talk page, blocks or no blocks"? I guess you didn't notice my several references to the IP talkpage being semiprotected by David Gerard (confusingly, another DG) ? Semiprotection means an IP can't edit the page. That's why I also refer to it as "the talkpage gag". Thanks for giving me an opportunity to explain this perhaps little-known facet of semiprotection. A combined block-plus-semiprotection-of-Talk is the strongest way we have of locking up and silencing an editor. It's rare, as it's only appropriate in very extreme cases. I wish somebody would unprotect the page right now. I have probably performed enough admin actions in this context, so I won't do it. I have appealed to David to undo his protection himself, but he's not here. I'm disappointed nobody has thought appropriate to do it yet. Brad? Bishonen | talk 03:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC).

He doesn't need the IP talkpage. He can log in as DreamGuy and post on his own talk page. Philwelch 04:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

David is probably asleep. I don't see any problem with a cautious unblock here. Certainly David wouldn't object, he's not a nitwit. --Tony Sidaway 03:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Tony, did you mean unprotect, instead of unblock? David Gerard appears to have blanked and semi-protected the page, because DreamGuy was using it as a platform to generate personal attacks. However, it's true that Gerard didn't issue any kind of, "This is your last warning" message. So, if DreamGuy would agree to be civil, I'd say to go ahead and unprotect the page, as long as he behaves himself. The block, however, should stay regardless, as it's for personal attacks, of which there were plenty. I'd be against removing the block, until/unless DreamGuy could prove that he was willing to participate in a cooperative and civil fashion with other editors. --Elonka 04:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I meant the block. It is the block that Bishonen has asked us to review. If this user after unblocking continues to be a pain in the wiki, he can be blocked again. --Tony Sidaway 04:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, unblock him.--MONGO 04:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I've undone both blocks because DreamGuy isn't a banned user. Actually I feel that my original 1 month block wasn't OTT at all. He was behaving awfully and needs to be told firmly that if he cannot edit cooperativly with others then he cannot edit at all. Anyway, that is done now, and we cannot block people as banned when they are not.Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 07:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The talk page was being used as a platform for vicious personal attacks - see its history. That's why I semiprotected it, specifcially so the IP couldn't continue in this manner. Bishonen, I hope you're not yet again offering undue protection to someone who makes good content but is given to vicious personal attacks on the wiki - David Gerard 09:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, David. That's rather disappointing as a thank-you note to me for sweeping up after your careless block late last night, when I would much rather have gone to bed. Please be more specific about my past and present undue actions, I'd like to know what they have been. Bishonen | talk 12:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC).

• I suppose the "someone" David Gerard is referring to above is me - though he is too timorous and polite to say it outright - or has he someone else in mind? - Whatever, perhaps we should be told - and more importantly how precisely Bishonen is "offering undue protection". If David Gerard does not want to put some diffs where his mouth is then he should shut up or cease his attacks - such as this one [121] on Bishonen and her integrity. Giano 12:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

David Gerrard's actions were outside of policy, and, honestly, so were Theresa's. If a person is being hateful, etc., we still have AN and AN/I. We still have warnings. Even if the person in question is notorious, etc., we have the same requirements. It takes a minute to do things the non-controversial way. "Personal attacks" are indefinable and are especially indefinable when we get to user talk pages. Talk pages are not article pages, and blocking someone without warning and then blanking and protecting the talk page because of self-identified "personal attacks" is not proper. Doing so and then going deaf to the appeals is only slightly worse. Geogre 13:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

As a user who had to deal with both DreamGuy and 216.165.158.7, I must comment: I think that this user has been repeatedly warned and given chances to reform, if not by warning templates, manually - I do not contest the block(s) itself. I do agree, however, that no user deserves to be silenced as such, especially given DG/.7's claim that the IP shifts over time. Since the block is reasonably justified, can we leave it as that, a simple block, and unprotect applicable talk pages? Besides, DG is a good editor, if extremely uncivil. I'd recommend leaving this block stand, but a warning that future cases may lead to a WP:RFAr. Nihiltres^(t.c.s) 13:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Bishonen, Geogre: if you think DreamGuy's work is of value and are this keen to stand up for it, I hope you'll both go to extra-special effort to get him to stop being abusive to others and to attempt to mitigate what damage he causes. If he can't work well with others - and his behaviour so far indicates he has no interest in such - then he should be writing GFDL text all on his own, not attempting to work on a site that requires massive collaboration - David Gerard 14:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Request to reblock 12.19.132.219

This IP address was blocked earlier in the week and after the block was lifted the person continued to vandalize pages most recently the article Drew and Mike; which I reverted. User 12.19.132.219 responded to this by vandalizing my user page, which thankfully User:CambridgeBayWeather caught it and reverted. —MJCdetroit 01:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Juro (talk · contribs)

User continuously deletes my comments with accusatory, derogative comments ("liar") [122] (all), based on that my IP is similar to a banned user's. I haven't run into autoblock, or whatsoever, but since mine, and banned user (User:VinceB) has the same internet provider, wich does not give fix IPs to it's users it might have happen that checkuser will find us the same. (What to do in this case?) I also got a checkuser request against me ([123]), just because my IP is 195... and because if two individuals talk similar, then they are the same... Intresting logic, however it may happen, that VinceB used this IP before, as many other users may did it, but I repeat, I haven't run into autoblock, according to the block log of my recent IP [124], it was never blocked, and nor the "what links here" (to my IP userpage) gave any sign of that this IP was listed on a checkuser page (except the recent one, based on the logic described above), or banned before...

Despite my kind requests, attempts to start a conversation and warnings (npa) to Juro [125], [126], [127], User:Juro continued the personal attack, didn't replied to my questions, and responses, (see previous difflinks) instead initiated a revert war [128], and deleted them all, including my talkpage comments [129], [130].

Checking his block log [131], I found something... funny. Not the 3 blocks for personal attacks and 3 other blocks for breaking the 3RR (six total for the action he/she just repeated above), plus one for evasing ban, but the indefinite block, he got for being a puppetmaster, maintaning 10 sockpuppets (!), but that indef. ban was lifted (!!!)

Maybe I'm rude, but imho User:Juro intitiated a revert war, despite the fact, that I bolstered my version with the strongest online sources, Juro placed personal attacks in edit summaries against me ("liar") (but, reading his contrib list, it could be anybody, just look at his/her talkpage comments, for example from march or february) - two significant things, he got 3-3 bans - I think Juro just played that "one more chance", User:Bogdangiusca gave him/her. He was indef blocked, but paroled (why?). I think - from these logs and histories - that Juro is maintaining this behaviour at least since June 2006, and seemingly won't change, despite he got even an indefinite ban. Giving him mére chances won't lead to nowhere, imho. I ask for blocking him, this time, indefinietly indefinite. Thank you. --195.56.91.23 02:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

PS: And please, an administrator revert Juro's last 6 edits (wich are marked "top" - 22:53, 20 April 2007, and five above) to my versions. I do not want to escalate this, or push Juro into a 3RR violation. Thank you. --195.56.91.23 02:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to give some context, a banned user (User:VinceB) has very recently used IPs of the same range (195.56.) and we had to remove his vandalism from articles and personal attacks from talk pages before CheckUser proved that those IPs were sockpuppets. I guess those recent problems, coupled with the fact that 195.56.91.23 had not been active since November and the only IPs from the same range belonged to VinceB, are largely responsible for User:Juro's speedy hands. Unfortunately, a request for CheckUser, the only method available to decide this case, has just been declined. Since there is no proof 195.56.91.23 is a sockpuppet of a banned user, I suggest someone informs Juro about the declined request for CheckUser and asks him no to assume sockpuppetry in this case. Tankred 15:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The context is as follows: 195.56...is 1000% Vince B. It is impossible that an alleged newbie (which the IP claims) simultaneously:

• uses the IP of exactly the banned user in question and,
• knows that he has to talk exactly to user Tankred when dealing with user Juro
• immediately knows how to check whether an IP was banned - I have never claimed the this IP was banned, that what his claim (sic!!), - or even know what a ban is
• immediately knows how to turn to this noticeboard and what to say here
• does not simply create a user account [answer: that would be outright sockpuppetry, an IP is not] * immediately refer to the use of "WP:xy" in one of his first article summaries, while this is not done even by most long-term users
• immediately decides to stalk and basically revert the last edits of a user (user Juro), who is in no conflict with any user whatsoever but user VinceB
• is from Hungary and "interested" in Hungary-related articles, but by a "coincidence" he decides to edit the section etymology in the article Slavic language while having obviously absolutely no idea in that field (just like in any other - iow. like Vince B), and "by coincidence" this section was previously edited by user Juro
• uses exactly the same type of language, style and non-sensical sentences like user Vince B (just look at VinceB's comments before he was banned, the same like above)
• there are currently maybe only 2/3 users from Hungary active in this wikipedia, the last one is always VinceB under different names

Finally, note that Vince B explicitely said one weeak ago that know he is happy to be able to edit as an IP, which "makes him independent" to edit how ever he likes. And this IP is this "independet" user...In sum, if any banned user can come and claim that he is just another person using the IP of a banned user even if the situation is as clear as in this case, then I really wonder why a ban exists at all. Juro 15:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

lilkunta revisited

I have blocked this user for three days due to continued disruption. The original discussion related to Lilkunta can be found in Archive 225 of this page. Despite having been blocked for using nonstandard font and color previously, Lilkunta has continued after numerous warnings [132] [133]. Since the original discussion/block received a fair deal of discussion, I'm leaving this here for review. Also note the user refuses to remove the statement "I think what happened, Virginia_Tech_massacre is very sad. But sh*t happens" from his/her talk page. Maybe adoption could help here. - auburnpilot talk 03:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Torb37 (talk · contribs)

User makes good-faith contributions but they are often content forks (examples: 1, 2, 3), unreferenced, and written in wretched English. These concerns have been raised with him on his talk page several times by a number of readers, most recently myself, but not once has he has replied to a message. Is any action warranted? Biruitorul 05:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Obviously English isn't his first language, but I don't see much that can be done. His edits expand an article rapidly, despite its poor grammar. --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 06:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to appear like I'm on a crusade against this user - I'm not - but might an RfC be more productive, or shall I just let the matter drop for now? Biruitorul 06:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Rfc wouldn't be a good idea in my opinion. Seriously, I have no idea what to do, but a Rfc would probably frighten the user off... Maybe just let the matter drop, and I'll give the user a reminder to follow policy? --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 06:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks for writing those comments on his page - I hope they do the trick. Biruitorul 07:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm concerned about the lack of response. Someone who can generate that much that quickly but without any ability to interact is worrisome. It raises suspicions of ported material, and that raises concerns of running afoul of copyright. Geogre 13:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Dicklicks

Could someone please check the contributions of this user. Wikipedia is not censored, but these images go too far. – Tivedshambo (talk) 05:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• Indefblocked. Images deleted [134]. Not appropriate AT ALL - Alison^☺ 05:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• Same vandal as this guy - Alison^☺ 05:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

A misuse of speedy-delete?

Resolved

 – User:Dmaycock blocked indefinitely as a vandalism-only account.--Jersey Devil 07:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

At 06:15, 21 April 2007 User:Dmaycock ((db-vandalism}}-tagged User talk:Dmaycock in an apparent attempt to get rid of admin admonitions by having the file deleted. I removed the speedy-delete tag. Anthony Appleyard 06:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

This would be a good time to get a clarification on this: do we delete talk pages? I've seen several talk pages of active editors deleted, and I was under the impression this was not a good thing to do (deleting user talk pages). That is, unless the user is indef-blocked. - auburnpilot talk 06:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I deleted a talk page - once - of a user who's privacy was at stake. They'd made a dozen or so edits with an account in their full real name. On request, a 'crat carefully renamed their account & it wasn't logged. They have very serious real-life privacy concerns & had a right to vanish, IMO. They're still about and editing happily so all's well - Alison^☺ 06:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

AuburnPilot, I would generally say "no" but, as in Alison's example, there should be limited exceptions. --Iamunknown 06:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

May be a vandalism only account. I just removed a speedy deletion tag to an article which clearly does not fit the criteria for speedy deletion. [135] I found this edit on the Don Imus article. [136] And he impersonated User:Tutmosis in giving out this barnstar. [137]--Jersey Devil 06:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely does seem to be an vandal account. Impersonations, obviously incorrect information.... I agree with Iamunknown about the view on deleting own talk pages. --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 07:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to block indefinitely as a vandalism only account.--Jersey Devil 07:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

We've never been able to come up with a rule about deleting user talk pages, at least not one that has been even close to rigorously followed. I've had a lot of discussions about it. While many, perhaps most, admins have historically been against it in all but extraordinary circumstances, a few influential admins have been much more flexible. In addition, I asked Jimbo to comment in one discussion on the topic and his feeling, if I remember correctly, was that those who want their talk pages deleted are usually not productive members of the community and if deleting the page will let them go on their way, that it should be done.

I think that talk pages should be deleted upon request as long as the person is permanently leaving Wikipedia and has not repeatedly come back after leaving before. They should also be deleted if there are legitimate privacy concerns and other serious matters. Previously, I leaned toward keeping user talk pages, but since people who vandalize, whine or are well connected get their talk pages deleted (or at least they did in the past, I am less active lately), I think that it is only fair to do the same for productive, well-mannered editors. Also, deleting talk pages often gets trouble makers to go on their way peacefully. Finally, if someone comes back, troublemaker or otherwise, his or her talk page can just be undeleted.

As far as IP addresses go, I think that they should be left undeleted, with archiving done as needed. (Archiving makes information less visible, especially if it is done by providing a link to the version of the page before the content was removed rather than making an archive page. The reason for this is that search engines will not index the content afterwards and will eventually remove the content if it was indexed in the past. The reasons for not deleting an IP address talk page is that a person is not identified by his or her IP address without access to confidential ISP information, and the information on the talk page can be very useful for those investigating the actions, usually vandalism if there's an investigation going on, of the IP address. This helps determine the course of action, such as warning, blocking and contacting the ISP, company or school who owns the IP address. Also, if their IP address is revealed, most people can probably get a new one assigned to them if they just ask their ISP. Of course, if the person is identified on the page, there are death threats or there is some other legitimate reason to delete the page, I do not have a problem with deleting it. However, it is often not necessary to do that. Instead you can remove the information from the page, request an admin to delete only the versions of the page with the information or make a request for someone with oversight access to remove it for you. -- Kjkolb 14:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

AfDs on notable murder victims

User:Proudlyhumble07 is sending a large number of articles on murder victims to AfD. The majority I've seen are of notable victims (Ron Goldman, Leslie Mahaffey, and the most notable murder victim in Japan in 2005, for instance). I have a feeling he's trying to make a point about the redirection of a few articles about VA Tech victims. --Charlene 08:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I closed all the ones with at least one comment. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-04-21 09:12Z

The POINT is off point. We had to deal with this issue after 9/11. Wikipedia has been monstrously inconsistent in applying the "victims redirect to the crime unless they are themselves famous" rule, but that's because it's Wikipedia. When someone makes a POINT like this, we should consider the nominations, but only the ones that actually deserve consideration. Geogre 13:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Legal threats

Please direct your attention to some legal threats made by Rickie_rich (talk · contribs) [138] over here. Thanks, ➪HiDrNick! 08:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely while legal threats are outstanding. If the user is willing to withdraw the threats and moderate his tone, please unblock. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 09:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Lawsonrob

Hi, User:Lawsonrob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has moved the article David Clark, Baron Clark of Windermere to the incorrect title David Clark, Baron Clark on 8 March (see [139]). On the same day, he has changed the opening of the article [140]. I have reverted this move and have corrected the opening on 19 April (see [141] and [142]). Some hours later User:Lawsonrob changed the opening again (see [143]). I reverted him, gave him a source in the summary [144] as well as informed him on his talkpage and explained why he is wrong[145]. I've got no answer, instead the opening was changed again two ours later (see [146]). On the other day, I corrected it, added a source to the article and asked him in the summary to read this source [147]. I also noticed him on his talkpage again, listed several official sources and warned him about the possibility of vandalism. Unfortunately he ignored this and changed the articles opening again [148]. This time he was reverted by another user, who declared User:Lawsonrob's edit as vandalism (see [149]). Today, on 21 April, he has changed the opening a fifth time [150], has changed the title given in the text to a incorrect form and moved the article to David George Clark, Baron Clark [151] (I think, he couldn't move it to David Clark, Baron Clark - because of the missing rights).

User:Lawsonrob has ignored all sources, has ignored any try to discuss, has ignored a warning and hasn't given any reason for his edits, so I think his behaviour on this article is in my opinion clearly disruptive. Please would somebody intervene? Thanks and greetings Phoe 09:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

One of the links above is slightly wrong as [152] was my edit. However Phoe has taken all reasonable steps and provided the official government sources which was why I regarded these continual changes as vandalism not a content dispute. Alci12 11:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

8 reverts at capture bonding by User:Hkhenson

I don’t know if I am at the right place, but there are multiple issues, e.g. WP:3RR, WP:OWN, WP:COI, Wikipedia:Sock puppetry, WP:POINT, WP:SOAPBOX, WP:UNDUE, WP:EW, and others, involved with User: Hkhenson, real name Keith Henson, at the capture bonding article. Basically, he started the article in 2005 with this version, with a 200+ word quote from an obscure article he wrote. He feels that he owns the article and he, including what is invariably his sock puppet account User:Maureen D, has reverted that article back to this 2005 copyvio version, eight total times. Six different users have either added clean-up tags (which were reverted by Henson) or tried to clean and contribute to the article only to get reverted. He has been warned numerous time, including a warning by admin User:Physchim62 here. His last revert removed 14kb of sourced material (as the article currently stands). Please block for at least a week or more. Thanks: --Sadi Carnot 09:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, please don't tell us what punitive action to take. Second of all, 3RR means within a 24 hour period - there have barely been more than 6 edits a day, let alone more than three reverts a day. So a 3RR block is right out. OWN is a more pertinent issue, and perhaps you should go to RFC, but at present I see nothing actionable here. If there's a copyvio, please tell me what it's a copy of. At present, it appears to be a content dispute, try RfC or RfM. Also, the assertion that Maureen D is his sockpuppet is neither absolute nor backed up. --Golbez 10:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I have already made 4 rfcs: here, here, here, and here. A few people have commented such as here. Also, User:Mareen D’s account has been inactive since last year and all of a sudden it becomes active to do reverts while User:Hkhenson makes the comments on the talk page? On April 19, Henson stated: “I will revert the article until the admins rule against me” This is not a content issue, full published sources, new ones added week after week, are being reverted. Please at least block for a day. --Sadi Carnot 11:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Not one of those RfCs, as far as I can tell, are actual RFCs as I know the term. There's a difference between asking for comment, and making a formal request on RFC. As for his statement, that's right out and I'll give him a stern rebuke to that. But I will not block based on a recommendation. --Golbez 15:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Edits by an IP blocked indefinitely

This IP seems (a) to have been given an indefinite block (for a death threat, no less), and (b) to be editing again. What gives? (And sorry for the cop-out, but I must now leave my computer and the net for a couple of hours. Over to youse.) -- Hoary 11:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a dynamic IP as well. It was only blocked for 48 hours. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It had originally been blocked indefinitely by Yamala, but as it isn't accepted to indefblock IPs, the duration was subsequently changed to 48 hours. I generally expect no more than a one month block for such anonymous threats. Michaelas¹⁰ 11:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be resuming his/her vandalism, but without the death threats... --Kz^{Talk• Contribs} 11:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a different vandal. The previous vandal used many IPs and accounts to solely threaten User:Eternal Pink. I have found that 24 hour blocks are suitable for this range. The IP can be changed by either rebooting or simply restarting the browser. -- zzuuzz^(talk) 11:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt reblocked

Recently, as most of you know, particularly if you have seen the hub-bub about it, I unblocked Daniel Brandt as part of a discussion around his appeal of his block. In his appeal, on his website dated April 11, he explained that the main reason he wanted his editing privileges restored was to be able to comment on the talk page of the article about him. This and other indicators of good faith on his part let me to grant that portion of his appeal while continuing a discussion of the other parts.

I still think he is acting in good faith, but for reasons that I do not understand, he now claims that my unblock of him was "the wrong decision." Ok. Well, then why appeal? Hopefully he can explain it to me, but in the meantime as a further gesture of goodwill, I am following his wishes again and reblocking him.--Jimbo Wales 12:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

This is getting sillier.Geni 13:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I dunno, Wikipedia is an excellent spectator sport and a great use of my Saturday afternoon. 86.145.105.149 13:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm so annoyed I'm off to play 3 hours of tennis, I want to sit here following the drama unfold. Beats the hell out of the Super Bowl, never mind the Heineken Cup. Jimbo, with all due respect I'm not sure this was what Brandt was getting at in that email. He stated that, ultimately, he doesn't care about being blocked or unblocked. As long as his bio is up, he wants, however, to be able to comment on the talk page. His fundamental wish, however, is not to be unblocked: he wants his bio gone. He recognises that his state of blockedness doesn't really matter: he just wants the bio to disappear. I think that's what he was getting at in that email, not that he wanted to be reblocked! Moreschi ^Talk 13:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Brandt has never had a problem in making his wishes known to editors editing our article about him, as a review of the history of its talk page shows. Even his comments at WR have been used as clues to improve the article on him. We encourage him to continue commenting at WR and/or on the talk page as an IP# to help improve the article's compliance with WP:BLP - in particlular removing or rewording privacy issue items or poorly sourced items. Comments he makes that are removed are still in history and are read and considered. WAS 4.250 14:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, he didn't do any harm during the brief time he could edit. I also couldn't find the request to re-block him in his contributions on the Wiki. Was it in an email? --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 13:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

He emailed Fred Bauder, and, per Brandt's request, Fred posted it on the mailing list. Moreschi ^Talk 13:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Brandt has an ongoing legal threat against the foundation which is sufficient grounds to block all by iteself. Note that the point of blocking due to legal threats is to avoid introducing bias (POV) based on threats. "Make the article the way I want it or I will sue" is the problem. We do want input that helps us make our articles better. We don't want to give ammo to people with a conflict of interest to interfere with our mission of a free neutral encyclopedia. Balance is key. WAS 4.250 14:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It is good that Daniel's desires came to match the communities, as the communities desire for Daniel to remain blocked did not seem to be enough. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 13:55, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Making anons fill out a Special:CAPTCHA in order to edit

Makes it a real PITA to revert vandalism, since the CAPTCHA only applies to people who add new content to an article, it means anon vandals can still blank pages, but anon vandal fighters have to fill out a CAPTCHA to revert/undo them. I imagine RUs don't have to jump through quite so many hoops just to be able to edit--172.148.109.92 13:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not getting these CAPTCHAS. 86.145.105.149 13:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
  • That's because your edit history is filled with page blanking/vandalism, which as I said, doesn't add new content to wikipedia, thus no CAPTCHA--172.148.109.92 13:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
  • You'll only get the CAPTCHA if there's external links in whatever you're editing. You won't get them everytime; it's to prevent spam. It is a pain for anons trying to revert vandalism, though, I admit. – Riana ^ऋ 13:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
    • In theory aren't all articles supposed to have external links/sources? otherwise wouldn't they be origional research?--172.148.109.92 13:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
      • A citation is not the same as an external link, and it is quite possible for a citation to not contain any links at all. In a citation of a news article, for example, what counts are the publication name, dateline, byline, and article title. With those, a reader can locate the news article being cited, using the publication's archives. An external link to an on-line copy of the article is an added bonus. It is not a necessary nor an integral part of a citation. Indeed, if you see citations that are given as bare external links, please fix them to include the requisite information necessary for a proper citation. Uncle G 15:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• You could just create an account. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 13:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
• Here's why. MER-C 14:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
  • So what stops spammers from creating an account?--172.148.109.92 14:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Same thing, a capcha, but only for the first 4 days. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 14:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Unwarranted move of article

On 12th April, I removed a goodly number of redlinks and incorrectly linked (as in, going to the wrong people) names from List of members of the Irish Republican Army. The changes were reverted. Discussion (including an admin) followed on the talk page about the redlinks. I posted 3 alternative suggestions there on 13th April. After 6 days, noone had proposed an alternate solution, so I posted (on the 19th) to say I was going to go with option 2 (Remove redlinks to WP:IRA's sandbox until the articles have been created). This morning, I created this page (unwieldy title, I know), copied the redlinks there, checked them, changed them where necessary, and removed the dodgy reference. I also removed a couple of bluelinks from the original list that went to wrong people/disambig pages. And then I created a link to the new preparation page here.

User:One Night In Hackney, despite not offering any alternative suggestions in the past, immediately put a speedy delete tag on the new preparation page for "breach of GFDL" and has been reverting my addition of the link to the new preparation page. I placed a 'hangon' tag on the list and debate followed on the Talk page.

User:One Night In Hackney has now arbitrarily moved the article to my userspace, despite his own 'speedy' tag and my 'hangon' tag and a debate on its talk page. When I raised this on the talk page of the admin involved, ONiH responded thusly:

Yes, as a project member I don't want the page in project space. I stated I would do it, and you failed to reply. One Night In Hackney303 13:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that you arbitrarily created it there in the first place, and you're not a project member. We don't need the page, it serves no purpose. We didn't ask for it, we don't need it, you created it, if you want it you can have it in your user space.

This is disruption, for what purpose I'm not sure. Can the page in question please be moved back to its original location, pending the outcome of the deletion debate? Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 13:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

As I've already stated, if you think the page needs to exist it can exist in your userspace. I see no reason for the page to exist for reasons I've already made very clear. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The only thing disruptive is a non-project member creating a page in project space that project members don't want. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Also as I've just noticed you removed what you called a "dodgy reference" (which is actually a reliable source), the entire page is an egregious WP:BLP violation! One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Re the reference - as you are already aware, I stated on this talk page

"A single reference has been added to all of the restored entries: "Tírghrá, National Commemoration Centre, 2002. PB) ISBN 0-9542946-0-2" The referenced book does not appear to exist, at least with that ISBN.[153] [154] [155] Googling further demonstrates that a privately-published, restricted-circulation book does indeed appear to exist [156] [157] - but at 368 pages you're talking what, a page and a bit per person?

Note also that the Guardian article states "The book, meant to be seen only by the relatives of the IRA dead, claims..." (my emphasis added). This, if true, means it cannot be used as a reputable, neutral, reliable reference."

This was never responded to by you or User:Vintagekits even when I asked that the ISBN be checked, and an admin has also stated that it is not a reliable reference. WP:POINT. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 14:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

That's because it's already been addressed elsewhere, the book is available direct from Amazon, and meets WP:RS. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Both myself and an admin have challenged it's validity as a source. Surely if its already been addressed elsewhere the thing to do is link to where its been addressed, not ignore the point? WP:DISRUPT. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 14:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

User:One Night In Hackney has now removed most of the entries from the list, after moving it to my talk page. [158]. Note I can find nowhere on WP:IRA where the project have discussed whether or not they want such a list, but I have found this. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 14:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Given you've accused possibly living people of PIRA membership (which alone is a criminal offence in the UK and Republic of Ireland) with no sources, I'm fully justified in removing the names per WP:BLP. Again, the source is reliable and has been confirmed as reliable by an adminstrator before now. Simply because you disagree is not relevant, it meets WP:RS. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Indefblocked user Mmbabies evading blocks, making threats

(Relisting since original was archived without any action having been taken -- Gridlock Joe 14:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC))

User:Mmbabies was indefblocked and later community-banned.

User is IP-surfing to avoid blocks, and has been for weeks. List of IP addresses:[159]

Last night his edits included two death threats.

He is exhausting the patience of the community. I recommend a block of the entire IP address range. -- Gridlock Joe 12:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

One thing I would like to add is that, as I write this, he has amassed 48 IPs that he used as puppets, including two belonging to the Alief Independent School District. He refuses to listen to us when he posts his falsehoods, assuming his "my way or the highway" attitude. He really needs to be stopped, and I have a feeling that worse might happen. -- azumanga 21:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit war w/User:Stanley011 pushing POV on Cho Seung-hui, 3RR, ignoring consensus

First off I hope this is the right place. It seems trivial, but it is the principle. I have tried to "talk" to this person about his insistence on changing the wording in a particular sentence and I believe it is his POV. He is also bordering on being uncivil, and is ignoring consensus. He has said to have "compromised" by finding a reference to support his POV and changed the wording to "mother's aunt." I know this sounds ridiculous, but he is the only one pushing this and continues to change it despite the consensus, talking, and the many references pointing to a specific term, belittling other editors, and using grammar, vandalizing and accuracy as his reasons for the reverts. Where, hopefully, you can see by the evidence below, that it is none of them.
Evidence:

• On the article's talk page: [160]
• On his talk page: [161]
• His responses on my talk page: [162]
• Google search of the article that uses the term "great aunt": [163]
• An image on google, provided by another editor on the talk page: [164]
• Dictonary says both are correct so grammar cannot be used as reason for revert. Which he has used a number of times.
• Most importantly the article references the term "great aunt" throughout.
  

Hope it's not too much, or too little. I'm begining to doubt the good faith of the editor thus reason I'm bringing it here. Jeeny 15:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Stanley 011's response: I have laid out an argument for the wording I have used, here and thus far, contrary to what Jeeny has asserted, there has been no consensus reached on that particular matter--in fact, he refuses to respond to my argument, instead leveling false attacks such as POV pushing. It cannot possibly be my POV that I am pushing though because everything I have written has been well-sourced. Further, the very fact that this editor questions my good faith, when as you can see from my user page, I have contributed to and created countless articles for wikipedia, should be alone grounds for his suspension from editing. Thank you. Stanley011 15:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)