Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 421

Archive 415

←

Archive 419

Archive 420

Archive 421

Archive 422

Archive 423

→

Archive 425

Al Jazeera - 2023

No consensus is going to come from this thread, and editors seem unable to restrict their comments to details of the source and not other editors.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
According to WP:RSPSS, the last discussion was on 2020. From reading the material in the discussions and supplementary material in different ones that refer to Al-Jazeera, it seems like the current consensus is that although biased in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Al-Jazeera is "generally reliable". The owner being Qatar (which directly funds a side in the conflict) according to the guidelines does not change the reliability of the source (although in other sources the person running it does change the consensus for some reason). I've seen some maps for example of Hebron published by Al-Jazeera, which were "exaggerated" to say the least, or showing a completely one sided picture ignoring history, but what brought me here was the quickness of their conclusions regarding the al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. During their coverage [1], Al-Jazeera made pretty bold claims. First of all, in large portions of their links, they state things as facts, e.g. You can also read more about the deadly Israeli bombing of a hospital in Gaza City here and see photos of the aftermath of the attack here. Second of all, they add the personal stories of course in order to encourage a certain narrative, while once again, stating the "facts": The Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital not only treated the many wounded in Gaza, it also sheltered people ordered by Israel to flee the north to “save themselves”. Thousands of children, women and the elderly believed they would be safe. But an Israeli air attack shattered that notion, killing at least 500 people and wounding hundreds more in what is widely being described as a massacre. The hospital was engulfed in flames with mutilated bodies scattered among the destruction – many of the victims little kids. Lastly, they add their own "investigation": Al Jazeera’s digital investigative unit has pinpointed the exact moment of the deadly attack through video analysis. There is only one problem. The majority of RSes right now, agree that the attack might have never happened. A discussion is happening right now at Talk:Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. As a person who is extremely familiar with the conflict, and studied it extensively for years, I already know that Al-Jazeera is many times dubious at best (and extremely opinionated), but seeing it with a green check-mark indicating that its investigations of what looks like an invisible attack might mistakenly count as reliable, is rather far fetched. They have later reported that a large number of countries and bodies investigated and concluded otherwise, but it seems as if they first take a side of the conflict as a sole source of truth (Gaza health ministry, run by Hamas, of dubious reliability), bolstering it with emotional view, adding investigations for things that might have never happened, and later reporting on the aftermath, of what might be their formation: The fallout from the air strike continues, with dozens of demonstrations in the region. Protests outside Israeli, US and French embassies immediately erupted in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan and Tunisia. I'm not aware of any correction made by Al-Jazeera of the subject, although I might be mistaken. I'm also not entirely sure about their reliability in other fields, but that's where my expertise ends, and I cannot attempt to deduct either way. I do know the DOJ ordered Al-Jazeera to register as a foreign agent of the government of Qatar, noting that the company’s style guide “reveals AJ+’s intention to influence audience attitudes with its reporting” and noted that its journalism count as "political activities" even if it views itself as "balanced".[2] I know it is a highly contentious topic, and for that reason I propose changing the green-checkmark to a warning (adding the reasoning in the appropriate description), and nothing more than that. Bar Harel (talk) 03:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC) A source can be generally reliable and still make mistakes, so long as they retract mistakes and issue corrections. We've seen that with the New York Times and other agencies who made the same mistake; the fact that we haven't seen that with Al Jazeera, who still has stories like Outrage spreads across Middle East after attack on Gaza hospital up, which says ...show their outrage in the aftermath of a deadly Israeli air attack on the Al-Ahli al-Arabi Hospital in Gaza, raises significant concerns about their reliability in this topic area. This article was also published after Israel claimed it wasn't responsible; it even mentions that, saying Israel has denied responsibility for the attack. The fact that they continued blaming Israel in their own voice with no evidence despite Israel claiming that it wasn't responsible amplifies these concerns. At the moment, we consider Al Jazeera generally reliable for all topics, with the note Some editors say that Al Jazeera, particularly its Arabic-language media, is a partisan source with respect to the Arab–Israeli conflict. I don't think this assessment is correct anymore; I suggest we continue considering Al Jazeera reliable generally, but within the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area we asess it as "additional considerations apply", to give space for editors to properly evaluate their reliablility for specific claims. BilledMammal (talk) 04:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC) It certainly isn't great, but status as an WP:RS is based on a source's reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; it's not appropriate to change a source's status over one event until / unless there's significant secondary coverage showing that that event has significantly impacted their reputation. --Aquillion (talk) 05:51, 24 October 2023 (UTC) It is not the first time such things happened. Even if we leave the DOJ or the video and the corresponding report I've attached here - within Wikipedia itself we've previously stated it is biased within the conflict. It just adds more and more evidence that the bias is so strong to the point that the accuracy or reliability can be questioned. Bar Harel (talk) 06:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC) If it’s not the first time, can we see some more examples? Downgrading a source should be based on a pattern of behaviour rather than a single incident - especially a recent incident. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:21, 24 October 2023 (UTC) The video I've posted is from a few months ago. The DOJ is from 2020, and the Wikipedia discussions are from what seems like years of discussions, with the final conclusion that it is biased in the conflict, as written on the WP:RSPSS. The downgrade of course is only relevant to the AI conflict. It's not new that it's partisan, we state it ourselves. Here I provide just another problem with the reliability, due to it being partisan. Bar Harel (talk) 12:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Like I said, the key point is the source's reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. "Here's some stuff they got wrong" (or even "here's some stuff that we can all agree they definitely got wrong) isn't a strong argument. The strongest argument is secondary coverage from high-quality sources discussing how reliable the source is. Al-Jazeera is a high-profile enough source that it should be easy to find secondary coverage of it. I'm just not seeing that in current coverage, which looks like [3][4][5][6]. That's reasonable WP:USEBYOTHERS and I feel we'd need more than a list of articles editors here take issue with to change their status in the face of that. Basically, if these things are significant enough to impact Al-Jazeera's reputation, there ought to be secondary coverage demonstrating that. --Aquillion (talk) 18:29, 24 October 2023 (UTC) I have no idea what Bharel means by "The majority of RSes right now, agree that the attack might have never happened." Everyone agrees the explosion happened (there are small craters and dead bodies to prove it happened). The question is one of who caused it to happen.VR talk 05:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC) The majority of the RSes agree that the "Israeli airstrike" never happened. Bar Harel (talk) 11:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC) The majority of RS actually agree that a conclusive determination is not possible. Selfstudier (talk) 12:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC) Agree with BilledMammal. A single event doesn't change a sources reliablity, but given the specifics "additional considerations" should be strengthened for the conflict area. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:08, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Agree with BilledMammal. I think many of us remember weapons of mass destruction that never existed and were an excuse for a war to make a bunch of money for some corporatisations. TarnishedPathtalk 23:52, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Would we say "additional considerations" in regards to NYT when it comes to US Foreign Policy given the weapons of mass destruction which clearly didn't exist? TarnishedPathtalk 23:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Support - Unreliable (especially in Israel-Palestine conflict). Al Jazeera is state owned. It's owned by the Qatari Government. Qatar is not considered a free country with freedom of press [Freedom House]. Qatar is known to have favorable relations to organizations such as Hamas, Qatar funded Hamas for multiple years.[7] [8][9] Therefore, one must assume that one cannot trust a state owned newspaper in a topic that it's owner (The Qatari Government) has a clear interest.[10] [11][12] Jazeera is also a significant soft power asset of Qatar.[13] In topics in which the Qatari government has of a less clear interest. One can assume it's commentary is more reliable, yet still ought to be read with warning. Homerethegreat (talk) 15:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC) State owned or otherwise, it's reliable (especially in Israel-Palestine conflict) and will remain so until proven otherwise. M.Bitton (talk) 15:39, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Support - Unreliable: @Bharel has made some very valid points. Have seen Al Jazeera making dubious claims. There have been various studies suggesting that. Would either mark the outlet as State Sponsored outlet or an Unreliable Source. SpunkyGeek (talk) 07:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC) Unreliable for Middle East, generally reliable for other regions For instance, their coverage of RUSUKR often adheres to higher journalistic standards than many Western outlets. To be clear, this discussion is just about the English-language version, right? I know almost nothing about the original Arabic edition. Cheers, RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 19:37, 17 November 2023 (UTC) I've also made a somewhat bold, non-substantive change to RSP mentioning that Al Jazeera is state-owned, in line with the descriptions of other outlets like Deutsche Welle. Most people not familiar with the Middle East (and Al Jazeera is increasingly used for worldwide topics) don't know that. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 19:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC) Generally unreliable for the Israel-Palestine conflict. Al Jazeera never publishes corrections of any sort and frequently publishes controversial articles without any bylined authors. These and other practices make Al Jazeera one of the least reliable regular sources for any issue where accountable news organizations can be expected to weigh in, and it should never be used where accountable sources are available. Aside from that, here are three things I noticed today: Al Jazeera claimed today that "the number of those deliberately targeted and killed in Gaza has now reached 60 journalists and photographers since October 7, 2023". No evidence has ever been provided for the claim that Israel targets journalists deliberately, or that they are more likely to be killed in the current war than members of any other profession. Included in their list of recent targetings is Ayat Khaddoura, a voice-over artist and Instagram influencer who has never worked as a journalist except for a two-week college internship in October 2019 (when she provided voice-over for the dooz.ps YouTube channel). Today called Benny Gantz "opposition leader" even though he is currently in government and, even before that, was not the opposition leader, who is and was Yair Lapid. Today described Zvi Greenspan, an American tourist walking in Jerusalem, as an "Israeli settler". Also in this article, leaving aside the overall narrative of the confrontation, "she pushed back" equals, she stabbed him twice in the neck with a curved knife, and "Shorouq is delicate and cannot harm an animal" means, she posted her violent fantasies on Facebook in the days before the attack. GordonGlottal (talk) 19:59, 22 November 2023 (UTC) Israel killed journalists, including Al Jazeera's. That's a fact No mention of "opposition leader" in that live blog. All settlers are "tourists". Basically, this is another "I simply don't like it" !vote. M.Bitton (talk) 23:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC) AJ does not only report on the AI conflict. The current entry says "Some editors say" for a reason (slightly different wording but similar background for Amnesty). An RFC will be required to show that there is a consensus among editors for something else, "many editors" for example, or a "warning" which will merely be used to argue against AJ reporting at every turn. Selfstudier (talk) 11:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC) I agree, I think adding a warning or "additional considerations" is relevant, but with the specifics of the Arab-Israeli conflict. I don't know if it's reliable or not in other areas (haven't really consumed Al-Jazeera for other information). Of course it will be used to argue against AJ reporting (specifically on contentious topics within the AI conflict), but if AJ reports incorrect (or at least unknown) information as a fact, then arguing against AJ reporting is rather valid unfortunately. Bar Harel (talk) 12:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Comment. Making honest mistakes and correcting them is one thing. But publishing lies to promote a political case (that is what had happened here) is something entirely different. So, yes, I agree with the original posting on the top of the thread: not only this source is biased, but it is also not particularly reliable, at least based on the example provided. My very best wishes (talk) 17:09, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Just to clarify, AJ is definitely a biased source, which is not a problem per se. We can use biased sources. But the problem in this specific example is that they widely published incorrect or at least strongly exaggerated claims to support their bias. I think this is rather problematic. My very best wishes (talk) 17:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC) So, I am saying this is a generally unreliable source for factual information about the Arab-Israeli conflict - at least based on the example provided. It does not mean it can not be used in this area. And it well could be an RS on other subjects. My very best wishes (talk) 21:24, 27 October 2023 (UTC) RSN is not the appropriate venue in which to wage the geopolitical battle de-jour. AJ is generally reliable, that doesn't mean that they're sacred or infallible... It means that they're generally reliable. The generally agreed upon point is that there has never been either a long form journalistic or academic article without a single error (even if those errors can only be determined in hindsight) in the history of the world. Perfection is not the standard, generally reliable is. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC) So that is why news sources send corrections [14][15]. In this case for example, not only corrections are not sent, but there's more and more one-sided reporting [16], without any factual checks on other claims. When a news agency reports an "investigation" on one side, but doesn't investigate different claims while reporting them as truth, the reliability becomes questionable. Bar Harel (talk) 03:08, 25 October 2023 (UTC) No it doesn't... You're bludgeoning and abandoning impartiality. Stop. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 25 October 2023 (UTC) To be fair, after I raised BLUDGEON Bharel committed to not responding anymore and has kept that up, so lets chalk that up to being unfamiliar with our processes and let it go. nableezy - 16:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC) That is my mistake, I did not see that you had already admonished them for that. Did not mean to dogpile. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Chill out a bit. Unless there is a lot of context about OP that I’m not aware of, that was slightly out of line. If this does go to RfC, it won't be just about ARBPIA. OP makes a valid point about three years having passed. A lot has happened in the world since then. On RUSUKR talk pages, where even the most partisan editors usually have little personal stake, we are generally very civil to each other, at least superficially. I don’t really want to see AJ go yellow on the list. But I’d be willing to support stronger disclaimers about the Middle East. If I can make time, I want to examine, in detail, their coverage of Yemen and other non-Israel-related regional conflict zones. Lastly, do you really expect Qatari state-owned media to be impartial about Hamas? I don't think anyone else does. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 05:26, 19 November 2023 (UTC) It is absurd that people are attempting to redefine reliability and npov as "agrees with the sources I like" and "agrees with the POV I espouse". Al-Jazeera is widely cited among other reliable sources, they are one of the very few press agencies that even has reporters in Gaza, and they make corrections as needed. And it is absurd that sources that peddled claims that were never retracted despite the evidence (eg this) are continued to be used without question, but one of the very few Arab-based sources is repeatedly challenged. Al-Jazeera remains a reliable news source with a reputation for fact-checking and it remains widely cited in other sources, the entirety of the complaint is a dislike of their reporting. nableezy - 17:31, 24 October 2023 (UTC) So according to you, the factual issues provided here are a "dislike of their reporting", and their biased inaccuracies are because they "don't agree with my view" and with the rest of the views on this board? Giving examples that other unreliable sources exist, does not make Al-Jazeera reliable. Bar Harel (talk) 02:28, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Dont believe I said that, no. Also, please see WP:BLUDGEON. You have now responded to everybody who has disagreed with you. nableezy - 03:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC) I apologize. You have said that the entirety of my complaint is a dislike of their reporting, and that AJ-Arabic has that notice but the report is not on AJ-Arabic. I will refrain from WP:BLUDGEON. Bar Harel (talk) 03:41, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Unless anybody can demonstrate that this is a systematic issue with Al Jazeera's English language coverage of this conflict, then I don't think anything should change for now. I agree with the RSP warning that Al-Jazeera Arabic is more biased than the English-language coverage, which is endorsed by the BBC [17]: Al Jazeera English is known to audiences worldwide for its varied coverage, which often sheds light on underreported stories. But its reporting - which only occasionally hints at the affiliations of its Qatari owners - comes in stark contrast to Al Jazeera Arabic. AJA's obvious stance on key regional crises and rivalries heavily colours its output. Its friendly coverage of Islamist groups - particularly favouring those aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood - came to the fore particularly with the 2011 uprisings in the region. Some of its correspondents have adopted a still harder line. In 2015, prominent anchor Ahmed Mansour offered a sympathetic account of the activities of al-Qaeda's Syria affiliate in a lengthy interview with its leader. Since a major rift between Gulf states erupted in 2017, AJA's coverage has also shifted closer to Iran. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:43, 24 October 2023 (UTC) I do think we might want to distinguish between Al-Jazeera English and Al-Jazeera Arabic, if the sources make that distinction. --Aquillion (talk) 20:26, 24 October 2023 (UTC) We already do. From RSP: Al Jazeera is considered a generally reliable news organization. Editors perceive Al Jazeera English (and Aljazeera.com) to be more reliable than Al Jazeera's Arabic-language news reporting. Some editors say that Al Jazeera, particularly its Arabic-language media, is a partisan source with respect to the Arab–Israeli conflict nableezy - 22:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Some editors and dubious sources also accuse the BBC of taking sides. M.Bitton (talk) 23:11, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Unfortunately, I don't even know Arabic. This entire report showing reliability issues is about Al-Jazeera in English. Bar Harel (talk) 02:56, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Just a reminder this board is for discussing the reliability of sources, it's not for discussing other editors or their possible motives. Other boards are available if those discussions are to take place. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:55, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable. I don't see anything here that would suggest that Al Jazeera (English and Arabic) is not generally reliable. M.Bitton (talk) 23:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable by our standards. Also, the demands of NPOV require us to use sources that provide a variety of viewpoints on contentious subjects. Note that a large number of Israeli news sources are used all the time, even some in the extreme right wing, and some balance is needed. Zerotalk 23:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC) There's a difference between a different viewpoint, and a problem with inaccuracies as written here. We have plenty of news sources on the RS board, showing a variety of opinions. When the news source goes beyond just showing an opinion, to a point where it publishes inaccurate information in what looks like an attempt to garner political influence, it is marked with "additional considerations apply". It is even more problematic when the mistakes were never corrected. Bar Harel (talk) 02:38, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Also don't see anything that would make Al Jazeera less reliable here, especially since we already have the note about bias regarding Israel. This is a pretty reasonable case for bias, but interpreting ambiguous facts in an uncharitable way for Israel is not a case for unreliability as to what the facts are. Loki (talk) 02:35, 25 October 2023 (UTC) We note the bias particularly in AJ-Arabic. I don't even know Arabic. This is Al-Jazeera in English. Interpreting ambiguous data is fine, but there is no notion of ambiguity, unlike the majority of other reliable sources. There's a notion that the interpretation is the sole truth, and is provided as fact. Even when some other sources realized that they reported without much fact checking, they sent corrections as a reliable source does.[18] Al-Jazeera is giving here a prime example of what a reliable source is not supposed to do. Bar Harel (talk) 02:50, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally unreliable. The fake news they promoted to drive street demonstrations on the hospital explosion is not an isolated incident. As Karim Pourhamzavi and Philip Pherguson point out in this media research publication: "The results indicate that, on foreign policy issues which the Qatari elite regards as particularly important, the network promotes the perspectives of the state. The relationship between the Qatari state and Al-Jazeera also constrains the network's independence and objectivity". On anything the Qatari state is involved with, the Al-Jazeera distorts to fit the state view. It is the same as RT (TV network). Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 06:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC) That paper is specifically about Al Jazeera Arabic. nableezy - 12:27, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable of course. This discussion is obviously born out of Al Jazeera's offering of a contrarian position to that of Western media in the current, ongoing conflict - when it is actually an especially good thing for NPOV and the world to have a range of sources. This isn't a 'the nail that sticks out must get hammered down'-type situation. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:28, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally unreliable That what's Arab governments says about Al Jazeera: Egypt blocks 21 websites for 'terrorism' and 'fake news' - Egypt has banned 21 websites, including the main website of Qatar-based Al Jazeera television and prominent local independent news site Mada Masr, accusing them of supporting terrorism and spreading false news. Al Jazeera blocked by Saudi Arabia, Qatar blames fake news - Al Jazeera has been blocked in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. Egypt arrests Al-Jazeera producer on fake news charge - Hussein was being held on charges of “incitement against state institutions and broadcasting false news with the aim of spreading chaos.” Why Malaysia Is Angry With an Al Jazeera Documentary on Undocumented Migrants - The Malaysian government reacted very strongly to the allegations, calling them baseless and sought an apology from the Qatari TV news network. Aljazeera spreads fake news over Al Arabiya UK operations Ovedc (talk) 13:48, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Qatar diplomatic crisis much? Saudi Arabia and Egypt, among other countries, had a major conflict with Qatar that included the demand to close Al Jazeera. Plus the Malaysian government pushing back against criticism... starship.paint (RUN) 13:59, 25 October 2023 (UTC) What's that got to do with the reliability of Al Jazeera? M.Bitton (talk) 14:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Lol, did somebody really cite the [Committe to Protect Journalists saying that Egypt (that bastion of an honest and free press) arrested an al-Jazeera reporter on saying “Egyptian authorities are waging a systematic campaign against Al-Jazeera, consisting of arbitrary arrest, censorship, and systematic harassment,” said Sherif Mansour, CPJ’s Middle East and North Africa program coordinator. “Egypt must release Mahmoud Hussein immediately and ends its crackdown on the press.” as evidence that al-Jazeera is unreliable? Wild lol. nableezy - 13:59, 25 October 2023 (UTC) This is not a formal RFC, "!votes" are unnecessary, if someone wants to open an RFC to see if the consensus has changed, go ahead and do that but based on the above, I am not seeing much appetite for it.Selfstudier (talk) 13:54, 25 October 2023 (UTC) I'd agree, an RFC is likely to result in the exact same outcome as is currently listed at WP:RSP. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 14:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable does not mean always reliable. The evidence shown is neither voluminous enough or strong enough to degrade the general rating of this source, given the murkiness that comes with war. starship.paint (RUN) 13:53, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Interesting, 3/3 (6/6 now) Hebrew Wikipedia editors having a similar opinion? starship.paint (RUN) 14:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Comment on the reliability of the source, not other editors. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 17:28, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Idk, they have a point, this is just turning into a parade of pro Israeli editors asserting generally unreliable. Selfstudier (talk) 17:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Maybe but any disruptive editting can be reported elsewhere. Adding fuel to a fire doesn't help anyone. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 17:57, 25 October 2023 (UTC) @ActivelyDisinterested: - within the last two weeks, an experienced and persistent sockmaster [19] [20] [21] improperly canvassed over 190 editors [22] to an AFD in this topic area. As a result I am left more suspicious than usual. There's even a suspected sockpuppet who participated below, I hope that this suspicion is false, of course. starship.paint (RUN) 00:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC) I'd hazard a guess that this thread has attracted some sleepers, but this is neither WP:SPI or WP:ANI. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 10:50, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Generally Reliable with Conditional Notes: Per [23] there "Mixed for factual reporting due to failed fact checks that were not corrected and misleading extreme editorial bias that favors Qatar." Al-Jazeera is considered marginally reliable and generally does not qualify as a "high-quality source" for Due to direct ownership by Qatar and extreme editorial bias , including being subject to Qatari laws that bar any criticism on the government. It should be considered a partisan source in topics related to Qatar, The Arab/Israeli conflict, and Minorities of India, and its statements should be attributed in such cases. Editors may on occasion wish to use wording more neutral than that used by Al-Jazeera in topics related to these areas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marokwitz (talk • contribs) Not certain but I think we don't actually use MBFC for RS assessments. Selfstudier (talk) 14:59, 25 October 2023 (UTC) We do not, it is generally unreliable for being self-published. nableezy - 15:37, 25 October 2023 (UTC) If we used MBFC, most of the western media outlets would qualify as highly unreliable for certain subjects (that you can guess). M.Bitton (talk) 15:48, 25 October 2023 (UTC) I’m not sure why minorities in India is mentioned here. There don’t seem to be any reports of unreliability on this topic. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC) @Bobfrombrockley A quick search on Google shows that India also bans them from time to time on reliability issues. Not sure why minorities specifically, but they seem to get banned on and off from a large amount of countries. Bar Harel (talk) 07:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC) India has been giving Wikipedia grief over maps too. The reason is that the Indian government makes maps showing de facto foreign control over territories it claims illegal. We shouldn't be downgrading Al Jazeera because it uses maps that accurately reflect reality. Hemiauchenia (talk) 07:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC) @Hemiauchenia Interesting, I didn't know that, thanks. Regarding specifically the accuracy of Al-Jazeera maps, it was actually one of the complaints in this report up top. Bar Harel (talk) 07:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Actually I was somewhat wrong reading the Time article. In that case, Al Jazeera was banned for making the minor mistake of forgetting to include the Andaman Islands, and other minor islands and the somewhat more serious omission of the disputed borders in Kashmir in a handful of 2014 maps. Wikipedia has actually been threatened by the Indian government over maps that accurately depict the borders though. I don't think this a serious reason to dispute the reliability of its reporting. This sensitivity regarding maps is more to do with the Indian government rather than Al Jazeera. Hemiauchenia (talk) 07:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC) I'm not sure if it's only India. I can check that, but the Hebron map I've linked above seems to be inaccurate, and from a quick look, I found some more map infographics, where the British Mandate is set at 1917 (before it existed) and the 1948-1967 section, where the "Palestinian Control" of the West Bank, was actually under Jordan (PA did not exist at the time). Bar Harel (talk) 08:27, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Clarifying my statement regarding Al-Jazeera being unreliable on India minorities related matters, specifically Hindu/Muslim. In one example, on November 6th, 2017, Al Jazeera published an article titled “The forgotten massacre that ignited the Kashmir dispute,” claiming that thousands of Muslims were killed in Jammu by paramilitary forces under Dogra ruler Hari Singh's command. However, the picture accompanying the article was misleadingly taken from an unrelated event, depicting a family from Amritsar relocating to Lahore, having no connection to Jammu and Kashmir. . See also [24] and [25] Marokwitz (talk) 13:16, 26 October 2023 (UTC) This source gives another view and mentions the fact that India also banned India: The Modi Question (for the same reasons). M.Bitton (talk) 13:34, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Generally unreliable. Qatari state-propaganda. At this point no different than RT for Russia-related news.Dovidroth (talk) 17:08, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally Unreliable Pertaining to Arab-Israeli conflict AJ (and especially their video outlet AJ+) let’s some wildly dubious, biased, and - at times - manipulative - reporting slip through the cracks far more often than any media observer would feel comfortable with. In my experience it is often subtle and doesn’t show steady consistency, so it’s very hard to call this and claim they are generally unreliable, as opposed to occasionally unreliable (also whether in general nor just on certain subjects) Doing more research on my end before I cast any final opinion on this, but submitting this report for editor review/consideration in terms of AJ bias/reliability: https://www.arab-reform.net/publication/framing-whats-breaking-empirical-analysis-of-al-jazeera-and-al-arabiya-twitter-coverage-of-gaza-israel-conflict/ Mistamystery (talk) 17:40, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally unreliable. Arab countries, and other non-"western" countries have been toying and influencing this network according to their interests, banning and un-banning again and again, while demanding the network to improve the bias towards them. This network cannot be trusted and is not a reliable source. Few examples: Robert Booth. "WikiLeaks cables claim al-Jazeera changed coverage to suit Qatari foreign policy". The Guardian. Retrieved October 25, 2023. Bangladesh: David Bergman and Tasneem Khalil (22 Mar 2019). "Bangladesh blocks access to Al Jazeera news website". Al Jazeera. Retrieved October 25, 2023. Bahrain: "Why did Bahrain ban Al Jazeera from the GCC summit?". Https. Retrieved October 25, 2023. Egypt:"Al Jazeera slams naming of its journalists on Egypt 'terror' list". Al Jazeera. 25 Jul 2023. Retrieved October 25, 2023. Iraq: "Iraq shuts down Al Jazeera Baghdad bureau". Al Jazeera. 27 Apr 2016. Retrieved October 25, 2023. Kuwait: Ciar Byrne. "Kuwait shuts down al-Jazeera bureau". The Guardian. Retrieved October 25, 2023. Morocco: "Morocco bars al-Jazeera for 'unfair' coverage". The Guardian. Retrieved October 25, 2023. Saudi Arabia: "Saudi Arabia bans Al Jazeera channels in hotels". Al Jazeera. 9 Jun 2017. Retrieved October 25, 2023. Sudan: "Sudan bans al-Jazeera as pro-democracy demonstrations continue". The Guardian. Retrieved October 25, 2023. and the list goes on an on... TaBaZzz (talk) 19:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Youve given a list of repressive regimes banning a press agency and are using that as evidence that the press agency is unreliable? This is getting surreal tbh. nableezy - 19:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Exactly. If that's the standard, I guess we'd have to deprecate every news organization that Trump accuses of "FAKE NEWS!!!!. al-Jazeera is appropriately classified at RSP as a generally reliable newsorg with appropriate notes. Banks Irk (talk) 19:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC) oddly enough, they are even citing al-Jazeera as the agency reporting that they were banned. Guess they reliable for that news? nableezy - 19:36, 25 October 2023 (UTC) When noting "western world" sources, they are dismissed as biased. When noting repressive regimes toying on and off with AJ, they are dismissed. When citing Al-Jazeera itself, it is dismissed as well. So nothing is true for you? isn't there any truth somewhere, or would it be you to claim to be bearer of truth? TaBaZzz (talk) 20:40, 25 October 2023 (UTC) If anything, what you cited above proves the exact opposite of what you're claiming. M.Bitton (talk) 20:43, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Their self proclamation proves they are part of the interest and bias game themselves. Not a reliable source. TaBaZzz (talk) 20:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC) i suggest you read what has been said about the perceived bias and its irrelevance to the reliability assessment. M.Bitton (talk) 20:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC) How does it do that? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Being a toy in the interests of (repressive) governments is by definition being unreliable. Cherry-picking information is misleading the audiance. And being misleading is being unreliable. TaBaZzz (talk) 16:31, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Nope, being unreliable has a specific definition that does not apply to it. M.Bitton (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2023 (UTC) From Questionable sources: expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist - YES. as was shown by across this talk page. promotional in nature - YES. Paid by Qatar and toyed by its interest and other countries interests. sound reliable but do not have the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy - YES. They cherry-pick the information they publish in a way that mislead their audiance. questionable business practices - YES. Paid by Qatar and toyed by its interest and other countries interests. Therefore this network cannot be trusted and is not a reliable source. TaBaZzz (talk) 20:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC) "Cherry-picking information is misleading the audiance." does that apply to this discussion as well? Because whether one agrees with it or not the OP here is full of cherry picking. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:51, 26 October 2023 (UTC) @Bharel: do you agree with TaBaZzz that "Cherry-picking information is misleading the audiance. And being misleading is being unreliable."? I imagine you strongly disagree given your argument's reliance on cherry picking information. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:51, 28 October 2023 (UTC) Reliable except in matters related to Arab-Israeli conflict The concern regarding Al-Jazeera appears to be towards is standpoint on the Arab-Israeli conflict. It should be considered generally reliable on other subjects but should be attributed in controversial/disputed topics. Ecrusized (talk) 20:37, 25 October 2023 (UTC) The only so-called "concerns" are about a perceived bias (by some editors), which even if proven to be factual would still have no impact whatsoever on the fact that Al Jazeera meets the normal requirements for reliable sources. M.Bitton (talk) 20:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable. I recall back to the Iraq War beginning in 2003-2004 in which Al Jazeera was far more "reliable" than the U.S. media which was a cheering squad for the war. Since then I've relied on Al Jazeeera to give a more in-depth view of events in the Middle East than the often simplistic treatment we see in the U.S. media. Smallchief (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable certainly as much as any other mainstream outlets are. I know I'd trust it at lot more than most other US mainstream sources on that topic. They might have a bias, but bias and unreliability are different things. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:41, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally unreliable Almost by definition, a media outlet in a dictatorship, with virtually no freedom of press, is not reliable. It doesn't mean everything such media posts is false, but it makes in unreliable for any claim not reported elsewhere. As an additional comment, the WP:BLUDGEONING of some users in this very thread is concerning. Jeppiz (talk) 22:54, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable They have a long history of accuracy and I don't see how we could mark them as unreliable for some slight occasional bias and slip ups. If we were to apply that same logic to the New York Times in regards to weapons of mass destruction or US outlets in general for believing a lot of what the US establishment wants them to believe that serves US foreign interests then how many US outlets would we mark as unreliable? TarnishedPathtalk 00:30, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable Please don't bring nonsense political disputes to RSN. If we're going to be discussing the hospital as with the beginning of this section and OP, then where does the New York Times group putting out new analysis in the past 48 hours saying the explosive device came from the direction of Israel fit into things? It's precisely because of this evolution of new information over an ongoing event that previously considered reliable sources should not be brought here until after an event. Otherwise we'd be having a discussion as well right after Shireen Abu Akleh's murder where, if Al Jazeera said Israel was responsible, that they're unreliable because of that reporting. And, well, we know how that turned out. Hence why current events are not something that should be brought to RSN. SilverserenC 00:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable It is a work that gets embroiled in political issues but its not the one creating the drama around, it is simply a matter of being a respected paper from the Middle East where there is a lot of politics at play. It tries to maintain itself above said conflicts. --Masem (t) 01:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Generally unreliable with respect to the Arab-Israeli conflict - Per the points that have been made. Way too partial to Hamas-controlled sources here without correction. -- Veggies (talk) 05:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Once again for those missing the memo, partiality is unrelated to reliability. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Of course it is—are you kidding? That's why we've deprecated sources like Sputnik and RT. They're singularly deferential to a certain point of view and divorced completely from reality. I'm not arguing that Al-Jazeera should be deprecated. Simply that, as regards the Arab-Israeli conflict, they're demonstrably unreliable. -- Veggies (talk) 14:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC) When you have demonstrated that, please let me know. Selfstudier (talk) 14:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable but could more strongly state the additional considerations applying to coverage of Israel-Palestine and of Saudi-Qatar conflict. Worth noting that the former includes the global spillover of the conflict in terms of Israel-related antisemitism: Al Jazeera Investigations documentaries about alleged an Israel lobby in the U.K. have been condemned as misleading and even antisemitic. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Comment To all the editors bold voting, and to reiterate Selfstudier earlier comment, this is a discussion not an RFC. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 10:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Comment: As pointed by some editors above, this is a discussion not an RfC. Al-Jazeera is a very popular Arab media outlet and generally reliable in news coverage, including in topics related to Israel-Palestine conflict. Al-Jazeera is regularly cited in other global media outlets as well as academic publications. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 13:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC) This should probably be an RfC... — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC) I think this discussion should be read as an additional substantial discussion which should be logged and linked in the third column at RSP, with the fourth column updated to 2023. So far, it clearly affirms previous consensus, but it might be sensible for an editor to tighten up the additional considerations mentioned in the final column at RSP. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:25, 27 October 2023 (UTC) to tighten up the additional considerations mentioned in the final column at RSP "Some editors say that Al Jazeera, particularly its Arabic-language media, is a partisan source with respect to the Arab–Israeli conflict." seems fine to me. Selfstudier (talk) 11:33, 27 October 2023 (UTC) Isn't it high time that Al Jazeera English and Al Jazeera Arabic were treated as the extremely distinct sources that they actually are? Having a blended entry for both is just a source of confusion. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:14, 27 October 2023 (UTC) When a network gets asked by a western governments to "tone it down" (euphemism for self-censorship), you can rest assured that whatever the network is doing is right. M.Bitton (talk) 18:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable and any mistakes or blatantly biased reporting coming from AJ are individual cases that correspond with frequency occurring in any other reliable source including the Washington Post or the New York Times.Makeandtoss (talk) 16:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable Much has been made about the reporting of the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital explosion and RS have been largely believing the IDF explanation of a Palestinian rocket. Only the recent NYTimes analysis indicates that the Palestinian rocket blew up two miles from the hospital and wasn't the cause. The cause is unknown. We shouldn't take the word of either side in the war and the mainstream press likely got it wrong.[26] O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:17, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Comment. I think it's clear that AJ has a bias and that it's influenced by the government of Qatar [27], its owner, one of the most repressive states on Earth and a friend of Hamas. On the other hand, I don't see many examples of the actual lack of reliability, which is the main question here. Their treatment of the Al-Ahli hospital strike indeed raises questions. They automatically accused Israel in the live feed [28]. Then they published an investigation that, while contradicting some of Israeli claims, does not accuse Israel of performing the strike. However, they haven't added any kind of disclaimer or note to the earlier coverage, which isn't supported even by their own investigation. I think that the RSP note should reflect this, perhaps advising against using their live updates. Alaexis¿question? 16:17, 27 October 2023 (UTC) I would say people should be cautious in using live updates and other breaking announcements in general, from any news source, per WP:RSBREAKING. No strong opinion on whether this should be emphasised on the RSP entry and no comment on anything else. Alpha3031 (t • c) 03:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC) Comment: do we have research showing they are reliable with regards to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? There are the issues that we've brought here. There are plenty of more reliability issues in other countries where they banned and unbanned Al-Jazeera constantly. There's a Wikipedia page for controversies surrounding Al-Jazeera and its bias. Up until now, I haven't really seen sources that show that Al Jazeera is reliable with regards to the conflict. What are we basing the reliability on? I've searched, and found a single research article showing that Al-Jazeera viewers regard it as reliable, but that's not too helpful. I've seen research showing the bias and framing. I'd appreciate some research showing that it's reliable. Bar Harel (talk) 15:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC) It is GR per prior discussions and the evidence presented in those except for "some editors" who think it isn't with regards to the IP conflict. If the question was being asked about the Jerusalem Post, there would probably be a different "some editors" who would consider it unreliable as regards the IP conflict. Do you have RS evidence that AJ is generally unreliable? Selfstudier (talk) 15:58, 28 October 2023 (UTC) Never said AJ is generally unreliable, only presented problems with the English version about the IP conflict. I'll check the evidence in prior discussions. Bar Harel (talk) 21:39, 28 October 2023 (UTC) Alright, I'm a hard worker and accepted the challenge. I've read all of the past discussions in RSN - 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1, and came out quite frustrated. In the majority of them the reliability of Al Jazeera is disputed in one way or another, and in all of them (100%) the reason that Al-Jazeera is stated as a reliable source, is because "Al-Jazeera is a reliable source". That statement is sometimes given by blocked sockpuppets, sometimes given by users in this very conversation, reiterating "Al-Jazeera is a reliable source" or "widely regarded as a reliable source". There is only one reply presented with "evidence", and the sources they link to actually state that AJE fully adopted the Hamas humanitarian disaster framing and casualties’ strategy. It accepted without any questioning the Hamas causality figures and didn’t make any effort to investigate who were killed and wounded and under what circumstances.[29] (p.152), so even the very source presented actually questions the reliability regarding the conflict. I've searched the web even more, and like I said, found a single article showing that Al Jazeera viewers regard it as reliable [30], and even there, they show the limitations of the study: Only age and Al-Jazeera reliance directly predicted credibility of the network and Our results suggested that Al-Jazeera users judged the network as highly credible. This study did not directly explore whether westerners who have viewed Al-Jazeera would differ in their judgments of credibility from those viewers in the Arab world. If viewers of a network regard it as reliable, it does not mean a network is reliable. They probably wouldn't have viewed it otherwise. In fact-checking websites, I see Al-Jazeera all over the place, sometimes as reliable, sometimes as not, almost always biased in the conflict. If you don't believe me, read the past discussions yourself please. Bar Harel (talk) 12:58, 29 October 2023 (UTC) As a couple of people have already said, there is the option of a formal RFC. Selfstudier (talk) 13:03, 29 October 2023 (UTC) I think I will call for the move of a formal RFC. The more I search about it, the more I find that it is systematic and widely covered: The fiction they concocted - that Israeli snipers targeted Abu Akleh-suits Al Jazeera's general narrative and the one that the Qatar-owned broadcaster has been conveying about its veteran staffer in particular. To pepper the propaganda and make it even more internationally palatable, most reports of this nature highlight that Abu Akleh and her cohorts on the scene were wearing signs clearly marked "PRESS"on their protective vests. — Blum, Ruthie. 2022. “The Workings of the Palestinian Propaganda Machine.”[31] The more Al Jazeera courts controversy, the more attention it receives and the more viewers it attracts. This makes it doubtful that Al Jazeera genuinely wants to improve its reputation or alter what the public thinks of it — Zayani, M. (2008). Arab media, corporate communications, and public relations: the case of Al Jazeera. Asian Journal of Communication, 18(3), 207–222. https://doi.org/10.1080/01292980802207074 Al-Jazeera framed their pictorial coverage in a manner that aligned with their governments' interests in the crisis. — Tayler J. The Faisal Factor. Atlantic Monthly (1993). 2004;294(4):41-43. Accessed October 29, 2023. Our research results suggest a significant difference in news framing between TOI and AJE and indicate that these differences are statistically significant. The textual and visual analyses substantiated the validity of assumptions of biased coverage and showed that the two transnational news media were clearly ethnocentric in their news reporting on both textual and visual levels. — DOUFESH, BELAL, and HOLGER BRIEL. “Ethnocentrism in Conflict News Coverage: A Multimodal Framing Analysis of the 2018 Gaza Protests in The Times of Israel and Al Jazeera.” International Journal of Communication (19328036) 15 (January 2021): 4230–51. The bias and reliability issues shown are in Al-Jazeera English. Bar Harel (talk) 13:58, 29 October 2023 (UTC) The first source you cite (p. 152) is from one chapter of the book on Al Jazeera; the chapter is called "An Israeli View" on AJE's coverage of the Gaza War (2008–2009). Though well-argued, its arguments are very much out of line with mainstream sources (like criticizing AJE's use of the term Israeli occupation as misleading because Israel withdrew). In the passage you quote, he doesn't only criticize Al Jazeera English, he also accuses human rights organizations, Palestinian, Israeli, and global, including, for example, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, as well as the UN, of being guilty of citing the false figures of Hamas, and criticizes the Goldstone report of being discredited and filled with fabricated facts, questionable testimonies, false accusations, and baseless conclusions and having already made up their mind even before the investigation started. These talking points are not accepted as true by mainstream experts. One of the footnotes it cites in support is NGO Monitor, a bad source. If you read the other chapters (including the "A Palestinian View" counterpoint) you'll find the overall report is rather positive about AJE, and this quoting is rather selective. Downgrading AJE would only create WP:SYSTEMICBIAS is our coverage. DFlhb (talk) 14:05, 29 October 2023 (UTC) Its worse than that, the first one is an opinion piece by Ruthie Blum, a non-expert in media or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And CNN likewise concluded Abu Akleh was intentionally targeted. The last one shows that Israeli and Arab news sources have different perspectives. Shocking development, but why would that mean only the Arab one should be removed? nableezy - 14:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC) Check the indentation (which is confusing due to bullet points); I'm referring to this source, quoted above as criticizing Al Jazeera English for adopting Hamas's so-called "casualties strategy". DFlhb (talk) 14:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC) @DFlhb I purposefully added that source, as it was used in the previous discussion "showing" the credibility of AJE. I quoted the Israeli view, as for some reason it was completely omitted, claiming AJ is reliable. Showing only the other parts of the report isn't necessarily adding credibility. Right now we have no claim in the RS page regarding the AJE bias, only about the arabic version, and consider it reliable for the IP conflict. If there are so many sources claiming there's bias in its reporting of the IP conflict, how can we ignore all of them? What do we base the reliability on? @Nableezy Remember, my suggestion was to add an additional consideration notice, specifically about the IP conflict. There are plenty of sources showing the AJE bias, some of them further claiming it is not reliable. I, and other editors, have added an endless amount of citations, sources and evidence. So far I haven't seen sources claiming it is accurate or neutral on the conflict, apart from people stating "AJ is reliable" endlessly. I thought we like citations. Instead of bashing every source I bring, how about we'll add some that say it is reliable? None of our prior 10 (!!!) discussions have that (except that one reply). Even this very discussion has dozens of sources claiming Al-Jazeera is biased, some claiming it is unreliable, but none showing anything that gives a shred of hope that I might be wrong. How can we bring a statement in 10 discussions spanning over multiple years, making decisions based on it, and not back it up with any source - by simply claiming it's the truth? Is this how Wikipedia works and I didn't get the memo? Look, I'm trying to stay as neutral as possible, but right now I'm facing with a huge amount of evidence to one side, and barely any to the other. I'm doing all the work searching for sources to both sides, and I'd appreciate the help. Replying "It's reliable" is not an argument, and honestly, so far it feels like an OR. If you're claiming why would that mean only the Arab one should be removed? then I agree with you - let's do it on both then. Times of Israel is probably biased towards... Israel, in the PI conflict. Bring relevant sources and we'll write it accordingly. Bar Harel (talk) 17:19, 29 October 2023 (UTC) From WP:OR "This policy does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:42, 29 October 2023 (UTC) let's do it on both then first of all, there is no reason to do such a thing for any of them and second, should we decide to apply it for whatever reason, then it will be done for every single source out there (there will be no cherry picking or baseless comparisons). M.Bitton (talk) 17:44, 29 October 2023 (UTC) I'm saying that we can't dismiss a source on the basis of allegations that are widely disputed by reliable sources (and that are also lobbed at the UN, HRW, Amnesty, and even "Israeli and global" human rights organizations). That chapter's whole point is to explore a partisan viewpoint. The rest of the book presents AJE as a proper journalistic outlet, which is our criteria for being "generally reliable". DFlhb (talk) 17:53, 29 October 2023 (UTC) @DFlhb I would have agreed with you and would have preferred to close this discussion, but there are 5 others that I've added, with some actual research done, showing AJE is biased (and the thread started with additional evidence for the unreliability + DOJ reference). Other editors also added sources. The allegations are not based on a single book's chapter, and atm we're stating the bias only exists on AJ Arabic.Bar Harel (talk) 18:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC) Israeli media, also traumatized by Hamas attack, become communicators of Israel’s message "But in wartime, Israeli media, like other components of Israeli society, set differences aside and rally behind the military leadership. Some critics who don’t are dubbed traitors. Coverage of the other side’s plight is kept to a bare minimum." Should we now caveat all Israeli media based on this? No, because there is a presumption of reliability for major newsorgs (WP:NEWSORG "News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact"), that includes AJ unless there is conclusive evidence of unreliability or until there is a consensus of editors that it is unreliable, neither of which is evident at the moment. Selfstudier (talk) 18:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC) I haven't really seen sources that show that Al Jazeera is reliable with regards to the conflict. Not sure what you are looking for. Do we even have any sources that show that any particular news outlet is reliable with regard to the I/P conflict? Meanwhile Al Jazeera reporting is in line with others on major events [32] e.g. According to Israeli officials, at least 1,400 people were killed in the attacks on southern Israel on October 7 starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 30 October 2023 (UTC) Al Jazeera, I noticed: promoted Jackson Hinkle (an RT contributor who is a North Korea supporter, denies the Douma chemical attack, the Uyghur genocide, the Bucha massacre, the fact that genes exist... you get the picture) as a reliable source (see here, timestamp 1:47). They also contributed to the spread of misinformation by claiming that a photo of a dead infant released by the Israelis was AI-generated (see here). That claim, too, was originally spread by Hinkle (see here, here), and they cite him in their video. VintageVernacular (talk) 19:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC) You mention two examples. The first, of "promoting" Hinkle, is them using a screenshot of a Hinkle tweet as B-roll footage to illustrate a video of a journalist debunking various claims. Hinkle's tweet is factually accurate, and the journalist never mentions Hinkle. They likely just looked for a popular tweet (that one had 10mil views) to illustrate a point. If we interpret that as promotion, we've about to declare a lot of news outlets unreliable. Your second example, "AI-generated", was from Al Jazeera Arabic, and it's in a tweet; we would never have used it for those two reasons. DFlhb (talk) 20:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC) Marked unreliable would be jumping the gun, I wouldn't have !voted that had this been an RfC. Currently I think it's yellow tier (in my books, that is). These incidents were just recent occurrences that worried me about their reliability, and I felt could use bringing up. Although I'd already been somewhat skeptical of them. But: why would a Twitter post by a news org marked reliable by WP not be a valid citation? Many news orgs publish good reports through social media, especially YouTube but sometimes Twitter as well. There's no reason to consider those unreliable simply because they're there instead of the news org's site. VintageVernacular (talk) 20:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC) I don't think it's a good sign that they used Hinkle's tweet in their "fact check" video there, but it's not quite "promoting". I think this supports the idea we might need more stringent phrasing of our caveats in relation to Israel/Palestine, but doesn't suggest they should be demoted from generally reliable. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2023 (UTC) They actually cited him as some sort of reliable source on their website, which I didn't know about before, simply referring to him as "[an] American journalist [who] soon discovered that it was a fake photo" in this recent article for their Bosnian edition. Is there some kind of exception carved out here for Al Jazeera English? I'm aware their coverage is significantly different between languages. VintageVernacular (talk) 16:40, 2 November 2023 (UTC) This does not support the idea we might need more stringent phrasing of our caveats in relation to Israel/Palestine until there is an RFc, no matter how many times that is repeated, it remains "some editors".... Selfstudier (talk) 17:06, 2 November 2023 (UTC) I'm not sure what you mean by "until there is an RfC". RSP says This list summarizes prior consensus and consolidates links to the most in-depth and recent discussions from the reliable sources noticeboard and elsewhere on Wikipedia. This discussion - the most in-depth here for a decade I think - doesn't need to be a formal RfC for it to be registered in the summary in RSP. It seems to me that there is something slightly more here than "some editors say it is partisan": about 50% of editors here are saying that "additional considerations" or "general unreliability" should apply to its I/P coverage? BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Open an RFC, so that the matter is widely advertised. That was how it was done to begin with and the editors here can comment there, that will serve to quantify what "some editors" means and if that has changed. Selfstudier (talk) 17:34, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Why wouldn't they if his tweet happens to be factually accurate? Don't we do the same thing (i.e., judge sources in context) or are we now expecting the secondary sources to check with us first? M.Bitton (talk) 17:36, 2 November 2023 (UTC) His tweet about the supposedly AI-generated photo was not factually accurate, as several sources I linked showed quite thoroughly. VintageVernacular (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC) That's not the tweet that was used. M.Bitton (talk) 17:43, 2 November 2023 (UTC) It was used by AJ Arabic here, where they describe Hinkle as an "expert". Another source they cite there is an anonymous post on 4chan. VintageVernacular (talk) 18:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Apart from the fact that they (the secondary source) can describe him however they wish and their analysis seems accurate to me (that's my opinion, others can have a different one), that's not what is being discussed here (see the link given by the OP) and Al Jazeera Arabic is another subject. M.Bitton (talk) 18:55, 2 November 2023 (UTC) If you hold the opinion that a report citing repeat disinformation purveyors Jackson Hinkle, and 4chan, by a news org funded by a government with links to a major party in the war the report concerns, is accurate versus the multiple analyses by AI experts and fact checking websites... that's your right, too. But this is not in any way off-topic as you suggest. VintageVernacular (talk) 19:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Talking about a Tweet that wasn't mentioned by the OP and in Arabic to boot is definitely off-topic. Of course it's my right (I don't have to believe parti pris experts). Incidentally, the Al Jazeera Tweet is about online propaganda (they even mention someone who tried to pass himself off as an Al Jazeera employee). I guess, this is what happens (the price to pay) when an information blackout is created. M.Bitton (talk) 19:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC) If you had read my sources, you'd find that the company behind the AI detection tool (used by Hinkle) stated it was a false positive, and the creator of the puppy photo (which was reposted to 4chan by a self-proclaimed insider) stated that was the one that was the fake photo. Al Jazeera was unambiguously spreading misinformation. Even if they did so in Arabic, it is worth considering if only because they're owned by the same network; the fact that the exact same misinfo was posted to their Bosnian website indicates a possible wider issue. VintageVernacular (talk) 19:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Exactly. Anyone can make a photo a post it without context (like they did). Until proven otherwise, that photo is simply fake (to millions of people who have no reason to believe otherwise and every reason not to trust anything coming from the side that holds all the cards). Like I said, creating an information blackout comes with a price tag. M.Bitton (talk) 19:31, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Comment - Al Jazeera is an invaluable source for factual reporting, analysis, and political opinions coming from some segments of the Arab world. It is one of the best sources at our disposal for this critical region of the world. Any suggestion that Al Jazeera should be labeled "generally unreliable" is absurd to the point of suggesting POV pushing. Unless we want to just come out and explicitly state in our policies that Wikipedia is an explicit reflection of Western points of view, the war against non-Western points of view has got to come to an end. Going after Al Jazeera is a bridge too far, and I'm glad to see that many editors agree. Obviously it should not be taken at face value if it's "debunking" corruption or abuse allegations against the Qatari government. Other than that, it should be used as much as possible. Philomathes2357 (talk) 02:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Again please keep your comment to the reliablity of the source, not other editors. If you believe other editors are behaving in a disruptive manner you have the option to report them to WP:ANI -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:02, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Marginally reliable. Unreliable in Israel-Palestine conflict Softlem (talk) 18:27, 3 November 2023 (UTC) References Reliable but should be only be used with a second source for the Israel-Palestine conflict and other Quatar involved middle eastern conflicts based on ownership. Esolo5002 (talk) 00:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC) For international, nonpolitical items I would say Reliable but for things on local Arab & Middle East politics and especially the Israel/Palestine conflict I would be extremely careful. There's a lot of reporting that says it's getting pushed or threatened with banning if it doesn't follow authoritarian party lines from some of the Islamic-Nationalist-dominated countries and the reporting on Israel&Palestine shows that it's failed to correct reported false information.— Preceding unsigned comment added by USNavelObservatory (talk • contribs) 00:15, 6 November 2023 (UTC)blocked sock/arbpia 30/500 Reliable with conditions that being not to use it for Qatari-government domestic issues. Given the nature of Israel Palestine, I'd be careful with that as well. Anything outside of it though is generally good in my view. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:57, 6 November 2023 (UTC) -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- The following was moved here from a duplicate section. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Al Jazeera is a Qatari-funded news organization which shows clear bias. I move to have them deprecated as a reliable news source Pburkart (talk) 03:58, 10 November 2023 (UTC) Examples of unreliable reporting? Softlem (talk) 04:02, 10 November 2023 (UTC) There is literally already a discussion up above on reliability and the general consensus definitely doesn't seem in agreement with you. Also, as has to seemingly be pointed out over and over again on RSN, bias has nothing to do with reliability. SilverserenC 04:05, 10 November 2023 (UTC) Information suppression and WP:RECENT Al Jazeera keeps doing what it has been doing all along and is something that is literally relied on quite heavily for all the years inbetween the major conflict flare-ups, and the timing of when RFCs and discussions occur on it is very telling. The fact is that there are not enough alternative sources in places like Gaza and Al Jazeera is the best we have, most certainly in the English language. It would be "easy" and "comfortable" for people to switch I feel, if suddenly Reuters and AP had the dozens/hundreds of boots on the ground in Gaza that it would take to be alternatives but this never happens even during the years in between the wars of Israel and Hamas. We need Al Jazeera to have as much English language information as we need to be usefully dealing with the subject in the English language Wikipedia, which is also relevant as it's the English language Wikipedia that is Wikipedia's "face" to the world at large generally. Al Jazeera English has repeatedly been awarded for its coverage in this highly contentious conflict area and I believe that is to their credit, they have already had the world's eyes scrutinize them quite heavily and the scrutiny has not abated. If there were true problems needing us to reduce our Al Jazeera usage, they would be writ large by other international sources because there have been those desperate to prove it for its entire existence. Sumstream (talk) 00:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC) Additional considerations apply/unreliable and non-independent for topics related to areas where the Qatari government has key interests - for example, the recent Men's World Cup and the Arab-Israeli conflict. Qatar is an autocratic state, and Al Jazeera lacks independence from that state; given this it would be unreasonable to consider it reliable and independent on topics that are considered key by that state. Evidence for this goes back decades; for example, look at this 2013 article by the BBC, which explains that the website is a standard bearer for the Islamist movement. BilledMammal (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2023 (UTC) That 2013 BBC article is specifically about Al Jazeera Arabic, which is editorially separate from Al Jazeera English. See: The battle over the media is a key factor in the struggle for power in Egypt and almost every Arabic language channel viewed as sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood has long since been shut down. and Only Al-Jazeera has continued to deliver the Muslim Brotherhood point of view in Arabic. which a 2019 BBC story noted is much more partisan than Al Jazeera English [33]. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:33, 14 November 2023 (UTC) @BilledMammal: even if Al-Jazeera English was sympathetic to Islamists, that doesn't mean they are any more unreliable than a source that is sympathetic towards Zionists, or any other political group. See WP:POVSOURCE.VR talk 05:46, 19 November 2023 (UTC) generally reliable : According to Wikipedia:Reliable sources - Reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. I will post more of my thoughts later. Very busy rn.Gsgdd (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable, including on the Arab-Israeli conflict. Al-Jazeera is among the few news organizations with reporters on the ground interviewing witnesses etc. Also see list of List of awards awarded to Al Jazeera English. I want to remind everyone that it still has not been conclusively established who caused the Al-Ahli Hospital explosion.VR talk 05:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC) So it has not been conclusively established, except by Al Jazeera, which claimed without doubt, in multiple instances, and according to their "investigations" that one side caused it, per the exscripts brought above. Bar Harel (talk) 12:26, 19 November 2023 (UTC) Keep chewing on this solitary bone, this does not make AJ unreliable. Selfstudier (talk) 12:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC) Comment - Just a possible alternative -- a specific topic concern might do better to ask about adding a note in their RSP entry on that specific topic, not for a generic and broad "Generally reliable" vs "Unreliable". Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC) Generally reliable including on the Israel Palestinian situation. This is amazing stuff, I have never seen so blatant an attempt to ban something for political reasons. I'm particularly impressed with the comment above which states that various Arab dictatorships (What's the difference between a dictator and a king? A crown.) banning Al Jazeera shows it is unreliable. The only consideration may be that it is unlikely to report fairly on the domestic politics of Qatar in the event of major political turmoil in that country, however its general record up to now is excellent, similar to a a major Western outlet such as the Times or BBC.Boynamedsue (talk) 04:34, 22 November 2023 (UTC) Support - unreliable + generally unreliable. This Qatar government-funded source has repeatedly demonstrated that they are not reliable. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC) Prove it. M.Bitton (talk) 23:24, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

GNIS for "populated place" list entries

According to the 2021 RfC, the GNIS database is unreliable for "feature class" designations such as "populated place". A question was raised at Talk:List of populated places in Colorado: A–F and Talk:List of populated places in Colorado: P–Z about whether it can be used to support list entries that have no other sources. Does the reliability issue only apply to notability for standalone articles or does it cover all uses including lists? (pinging involved user Buaidh) –dlthewave ☎ 23:11, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

The RFC was clear that the GNIS was unreliable for feature classes like 'populated place'. Not sure how anyone can twist that to mean its not okay to use as a reference for notability on an article on a populated place (because its unreliable as to if its populated or not), but can be used in a 'list of populated places' as a reference somewhere is a populated place without some major mental gymnastics.

Those lists are 'List of populated places' with the scope being 'current or former inhabited places' and 'current and extinct populated places', which the GNIS has found to be unreliable for. If the GNIS is the only source for it being a populated place, its not reliably sourced and should be removed from the list per WP:V. Those lists are not named 'Lists of places GNIS says are/were populated places but probably are not'..... Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:29, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Geographic Names Information System#Populated places has several interesting links We have found that a significant number of these Populated Places are road intersections that may have been more populous or otherwise significant in the past.p. 5 and Some entries in the GNIS or on maps are erroneous; or refer to long- vanished railroad sidings where no one ever lived or have fallen out of use and memory.p. 3. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:04, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

In my humble opinion, GNIS is generally unreliable for everything: Articles, lists, claims that the sky is blue. See WP:GNIS for a description of cases in which manual errors in the GNIS have led to ridiculous WP content. I'm in the middle of a long campaign of eliminating articles on nonexistent California locales based on one user's liberal overinterpretation of the "unincorporated community" category in GNIS. If GNIS says New York City is populated, I would consult a second source. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 02:50, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Misunderstood: As a retired Professional Engineer and former surveyor, I’ve worked with United States Geological Survey benchmarks and maps, National Geodetic Survey benchmarks and datasheets, and the Geographic Names Information System for more than 50 years. I believe that many Wikipedia editors misunderstand what the GNIS domestic names feature class “Populated Place” means.

Populated Place - Place or area with clustered or scattered buildings and a permanent human population (city, settlement, town, village). A populated place is usually not incorporated and by definition has no legal boundaries. However, a populated place may have a corresponding "civil" record, the legal boundaries of which may or may not coincide with the perceived populated place. Distinct from Census and Civil classes.

Once a place becomes populated, it remains a GNIS populated place even if it loses all of its population. Thus, any of the more than 1,500 Colorado ghost towns may be assigned a GNIS populated place class (although many ghost towns disappeared before the USGS could locate them.) I track these ghost towns which are very important to the history of the western mining regions.

Many towns were built during the construction of the western railroads, mines, mills, tollroads, tunnels, and later, highways. Most railroads established section houses for housing maintenance crews at intervals of approximately 6 miles (10 km). Section houses were often located near stations, road crossings, or sidings, but many had to be located in remote areas. Sometimes an extended community would develop around the section house. Most section houses were eventually abandoned, thus creating an extinct populated place.

As discussed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 357#RfC: GNIS, no article should be created for a GNIS populated place unless at least one other reference confirms the GNIS entry. If I find a GNIS populated place in a list for which I cannot find another reference, I mark it as a [[Geographic Names Information System|GNIS place]]. It is a mistake to delete list entries unless you can prove that a GNIS populated place has never been populated. (Proving a negative is almost always impossible.) Deleting a GNIS populated place list entry could destroy valuable historical information.

If you are certain that a GNIS populated place has never been occupied, you should contact the United States Board on Geographic Names at BGNexec@usgs.gov to identify the error before deleting the list entry. I know many of you like to sneer at the GNIS, but over the years, I’ve found it to be remarkably accurate. Yours aye,  Buaidh  talk e-mail 03:03, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

But academic sources have questioned the the reliability of, and shown errors in, places marked as 'Populated Places'. Including showing that the published form and the database don't align, and some places were never populated. If you want to go through and help USGS find and correct any errors in the database that's up to you, but until they are the use of the database is in question. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:01, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Like all government agencies, the USGS and the USBGN have limited resources, so I think it is incumbent on all U.S. editors to provide whatever assistance we can. Thank you,  Buaidh  talk e-mail 14:21, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I'm one of the four editors who isn't in the US. Reliable sources are one known for having a history of fact checking, not ones that editors have check the facts for. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:08, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

No, but i think this is really the wrong question to be asking. GNIS is really just a convenience, and the sources (in an outside of WP sense) are the USGS products and and the Board on Geographic Names work cards. In my (limited) experience if a name appeared on a USGS map product there will most likely not be any problem finding a bunch of sources. The work cards are a different story tho, the ones i've seen are a pretty skimpy bit of documentation, with penciled in notes and no real indication where any of the names came from. But in many cases, by searching state or county historical societies, Chronicling America or the WPLibrary newspaper achives, and using alternate names found on the card, something will probably to turn up. But that still doesn't warrant including in a "Populated Place" list. A nineteenth century town, maybe with big dreams for growth and important for a couple of years, but eventually abandoned is the usual story, and maybe could generate a few sentences of prose for content. So where should you put that prose and those sources within WP and is the effort even worthwhile?

An online historical WP:Gazetteer would be a tremendously useful thing, but WP:Wikipedia is not a gazetteer until it can figure out how to be one, and per Only in death lists of "Populated Places" are not right and not really useful. fiveby(zero) 14:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Questionable GNIS populated places in a list can be marked with {{efn|name=GNISpp|This [[Geographic Names Information System]] place may require additional verification.}}. This preserves the location for further examination. I've done this for the List of populated places in Colorado. This is certainly preferable to deletion. Yours aye,  Buaidh  talk e-mail 17:34, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate the effort to preserve information, however the entries I removed have already been checked and no other sources were found. We really shouldn't leave these in mainspace indefinitely after verification attempts have failed. As an alternative, would you like me to start a separate list or table in wiki space to save the deleted information? –dlthewave ☎ 20:01, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. That is a good idea. Please see below. Yours aye,  Buaidh  talk e-mail 23:49, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I think the issue is that the tags aren't absolutely dictionary definitions, and the details state they are not meant to be. So places of human activity get marked with 'Populated Place' even if no human has ever lived there. This is all fine for the database, but once you start building articles or lists of places of human habitation off of that tag there's a problem. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:12, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Colorado repository: Following the advice of User:Dlthewave, I’ve created a repository for questionable Colorado GNIS populated places at Wikipedia:WikiProject Colorado/GNIS places needing verification. I’ve moved the places Dlthewave identified in the List of populated places in Colorado to this new repository for further investigation. I would appreciate the help of anyone who can identify questionable GNIS populated places in Colorado. Other U.S. states may wish to do something similar. Thank you,  Buaidh  talk e-mail 23:49, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Whole Life Times

I'm looking for secondary sources that might be helpful while revising the wikipedia article on Kriyananda, which currently relies heavily on primary sources. Is Whole Life Times [34] a reliable secondary source for information about the life of Kriyananda? For example, could I use this article [35] to support the claim that Kriyananda wrote 150 books? Perception312 (talk) 01:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

That "About us" section is really discouraging for treating it as reliable, as that article is presumably from 2013, and the history of the mag says absolutely zero about who was running it when it was revived in 2008, until its takeover by a new head in 2016. Better information would be needed to give this status as reliable. The "150 books" claim is aggressive, and is open to wide interpretation (even if there is some basis for the count, it may rely on treating translations as separate titles.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 01:37, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that's a reliable source. It looks like the kind of page that would copy from Wikipedia. Cortador (talk) 07:57, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

According to its Writers Guidelines, this magazine relies mostly on freelancers but it asks for verification info, so there's some level of fact-checking and editorial oversight. However, I'm leaning toward no for the Kriyananda article with respect to the 150 books, as "150 books published in 30 languages in more than 100 countries" seems a bit generic and vague to me. 23impartial (talk) 21:22, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, all! Perception312 (talk) 22:19, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I will also note that the writer guidelines you cite first showed up in that location in February of 2015, so we cannot be sure the same guides were in place in 2013... although it should've been under the same regime, so it's likely. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:24, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Nice catch. Thank you. 23impartial (talk) 03:36, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

WhatCulture

Years ago, I started a thread for WhatCulture, a low-quality entertainment website that should be written off as unreliable. I made the same point then in seeking to build a solid consensus about its usability, and if memory serves, I was also asked whether I favored deprecating it, and perhaps also blacklisting it. I never responded, which I regret. Anyway, it was unanimously declared unreliable, a verdict I stand by.

A bit has changed since the 2020 discussion. In 2022, Future plc ignominiously acquired WhatCulture. "Ignominiously" is an understatement, considering that Future is behind many, generally high-quality publications. A reader familiar with the company and its publications should thus be assured of the quality of this website's content. Instead, what one gets is still the same old farmed content whose authors attempt little, if any, serious journalism and which is comparable in contemptible ways to what one sees from YouTube channels like WatchMojo, which is not listed at WP:RSP, but has been found useless by WikiProject Video games and previously here on the RSN. A word of note—and it still surprises me—is that at least one author, as was brought to light in this discussion, apparently has worked for other websites (though I could not verify whether they are the same person). On top of that, the policy that "You do not need to have any relevant experience or hold any particular qualifications" seems to have disappeared in mid-2023—the good part. The bad part is that it still exists in a different flavor: "Experience isn't necessary, but it helps."

All things considered, WhatCulture has been, and still is, a classic stereotype of McJournalism. It prioritizes article quantity over quality, utilizes clickbait, and at the expense of that seeks to maximize article views and profits. It is not another New York Post Metro, or The History Channel, but the equivalent of the Daily Mail, The Sun, and other sources of information that we wish did not appear in our search results. I suggest we deprecate it. It may also be prudent to put an edit filter over the source since I suspect it has been inserted into articles by users either engaged in spam or not knowing Wikipedia's concept of reliability. FreeMediaKid$ 01:23, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

No disagreement from me that this is a trash source. For anyone interested it's currently used in ~850 articles.[36] -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:08, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Appears problematic. However, I do not think it is the equivalent of the Daily mail or the Sun since its scope and focus is different. Homerethegreat (talk) 11:35, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

NGO Freedom House citing Falun Gong sources (Epoch Times, etc.)

First, a bit of context: The Falun Gong is a new religious movement centered around China-born Li Hongzhi. It is headquartered out of a compound called Dragon Springs in Deer Park, New York, where Li Hongzhi also lives. For more on the extremely controversial Falun Gong and its various media arms, like the conspiracy/Qanon superspreader The Epoch Times, here's a very recent article from NBC News on the whole matter.

As you can probably picture from that read, our Falun Gong and related articles are rough corners of Wikipedia. This is solely because Falun Gong and related articles are actively lobbied and edited by groups of adherents. We know this because (1) what would otherwise be totally normal edits and even praised additions of new WP:RS instead typically provoke intense backlash, taunts, and insults, and (2) because scholars have outright written about the Falun Gong's and their leader's Li Hongzhi's attempts at controlling Wikipedia coverage (see for example Lewis 2018: 80).

On to the matter at hand. Like many other religious groups, Falun Gong is persecuted in China. Li Hongzhi started it there in the 1990s before moving his operations to the US. Yet it is tough to get objective information about what exactly is going on over there today. This is partially because over time the group has cultivated a very cozy relationship with NGOs like Amnesty International and Freedom House. This friendly relationship has also attracted the attention of scholars, who have noted for example that "the press often quote Amnesty International, but Amnesty's reports are not verified, and mainly come from Falun Gong sources" (Lewis 2018: 80 & Kavan 2005).

Freedom House frequently also uncritically cites Falun Gong sources, especially Falun Gong's "Falun Dafa Information Center". Here is for example Freedom House citing Falun Gong for demographic information (specifically falundafa.info, ref 31, p. 126), for example.

Now, Wikipedia does not allow for citing Falun Gong arms like The Epoch Times—we've had enough Qanon, Trump truther, vaccination conspiracy, anti-evolution this or that, and January 6 stuff over the years, just as the tip of the iceberg—but we have editors over at the Falun Gong article that say we should be citing the Falun Gong's claims if Freedom House cites them. Personally, I see this as little more than laundering a source, the same source no less that brings us all stripes of conspiracy theories via the Epoch Times and by way of various other less visible organizations.

So, to put an end to these tedious discussions, should we cite claims from Freedom House that come from the Falun Gong, including information that Freedom House takes directly from Falun Gong websites? :bloodofox: (talk) 15:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Cutting through all the irrelevant background on the topic, the issue at hand is that Bloodofox wants the article to use only sources that are hostile to Falun Gong, regardless of publisher. Sennalen (talk) 15:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Apparently that translates to all media coverage of the group from the past several years. I rest my point. Anyway, note that this is clean start account that has quite likely edited extensively on this article in the past. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Thats an important thing to note... There appears to have been a significant difference in how sources treat FG as they've gotten more and more fringe and more and more involved in American and European politics over the last half decade or so. An insistence on overusing sources from before then instead of the most modern ones would be a WP:FALSEBALANCE issue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Blocked 31 hours for the above unsubstantiated personal attack. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

• Freedom House is a long-established reputable advocacy think tank that has been discussed many times before at RSN. It is a reliable source, but because many, of not most of its articles are opinion pieces reflecting its editorial position, citations to it as a source should be attributed. Looking at the specific article and reference in the OP, the Freedom House article appropriately attributes the demographic figures to their sources, which to a discerning reader is neither endorsement nor criticism. I do not think that this objection is well-taken. Banks Irk (talk) 16:24, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

In addition to the secondary sources we have about similar NGOs, I note that Freedom House does not inform the reader that "The Falun Dafa Information Center" is in fact simply just another arm of the Falun Gong. It takes some digging and familiarity with the topic to know this. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I actually disagree with that, I think its so obviously a part of Falun Gong that saying so is almost redundant. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:37, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Most readers are not going to know that the Falun Gong and Falun Dafa are the same thing, and the site does not clearly identify itself as a Falun Gong entity. RS usually identify such sources as at least 'Falun Gong-aligned' or 'Falun Gong-associated'. Freedom House does not. It's the same situation with The Epoch Times: we know it's Falun Gong because we're used to the grou's approach and have plenty of RS on it but nowhere do they inform the public. :bloodofox: (talk) 10:04, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Honestly I don't think most people will even notice that they're significantly different. Epoch Times is a different story, if it was the Falun Times I think people would get it... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• It seems like more a due weight issue than a reliability one, yes Freedom House cites FG sources... But cherry picking just that info from those sources to include in the article isn't due. I hear your concerns in terms of Freedom House being used to get FG sources which we otherwise couldn't use in the "back door" per say. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:31, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  Here is the entire Freedom House report which has separate chapters focusing on religious freedom of Buddhism and Daoism, Christianity, Islam, Falun Gong, and Tibetan Buddhism. The chapter on Falun Gong cites from The Falun Dafa Information Center among other sources. Other chapters cite the reports of victim organizations as well. For example, the chapter on Christianity cites from China Aid, a Christian human rights organization; the chapter on Islam cites the Uyghur American Association's report "China's Iron-Fisted Repression of Uyghur Religious Freedom"; and the chapter on Tibetan Buddhism cite sources including The Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and interviews of Tibetan Buddhists. Thanks. Path2space (talk) 18:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  And why should we treat their coverage of FG different from their coverage of all of those other topics? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  Exactly. There is a well established protocol in this kind of situation. The source is reliable, and it should be used with attribution both of the source and of it's own attribution, e.g. "Freedom House reports that FG claims # of X". This is exactly like conflicting casualty claims by combatants for a battle or war. If some other reliable source has a different figure for the same stat, also reflect that. Banks Irk (talk) 01:38, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• Bloodofox are you aware of Ownby's opinion here? Probably appropriate to consider, tho not specific to Freedom House. fiveby(zero) 17:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

You might provide some kind of quote or page number for what exactly you're referring to. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:15, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh, sorry i was referring to his discussion in the preface on the use of Falun Gong sources by the human rights advocacy orgs. His is probably still the most respected general introduction to the topic. He fully admits to a "sympathetic" view, that there is no "proof" of many things, and that he is really unqualified to add anything more. There are of course other perspectives, to the extreme of accusing Amnesty International of being a "mouthpiece of Falun Gong". The quality sources are well-aware of the heavy bias and propaganda efforts in the sources of information we have, from both CCP and Falun Gong. So what are we doing here in this RSN thread but attempting to substitute our own opinions for those of the sources we should be looking to build content?

I can only go by the edits you made to the lead section, and have to say those edits look very bad. Freedom House on it's own doesn't warrant a prominent placement probably, but given the totality of sources and discussion, i think you are way out on a limb with what seems to be an effort towards complete removal. fiveby(zero) 14:46, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm aware, as you are, that we have several sources discussing the very cozy relationship between these NGOs and Falun Gong. I've brought the reports from Freedom House and Amnesty International in question because they cite Falun Gong websites for data, and we have RS discussing how this relationshiop is problematic. Neither the Chinese government nor the Falun Gong are reliable source for information on the Falun Gong. Full stop. As always, find some reliable, recent sources or expect pushback. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:56, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

A disappointing yet common attitude in my opinion, push back against other editors before attempting to serve the reader first. There's an MOS page out there somewhere which advises as to how to craft summary sections. When introducing an article for something like a car model, first tell the reader it's a car. I think in general, seeing the resulting summary you've created, you are neglecting the reader and forgetting that there is first a car here to describe. fiveby(zero) 15:22, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

You'll likely get better results if you don't speak in riddles. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, consider my feedback—or don't— i really could not care less which. But by posting on a noticeboard you are asking for feedback, and i don't really have the time or motivation for unproductive argument. fiveby(zero) 15:29, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Are you disputing that the Falun Gong is a new religious movement centered around Li Hongzhi and based in Deer Park at the Dragon Springs compound? That's what the lead says. I am honestly at a loss about what on earth you're complaining about. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Rfc: Should the Eras Tour be mentioned in the lead of Sabrina Carpenter?

An RfC has been made here regarding whether Carpenter opening Taylor Swift's Eras Tour should be mentioned in the lead of Carpenter's biography article or not. You are invited to participate. ℛonherry☘ 17:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Kingship and Colonialism in India’s Deccan 1850–1948

Is this a reliable source? Kingship and Colonialism in India’s Deccan 1850–1948 for citing historic events? Ajayraj890 (talk) 12:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The author is a history professor (Benjamin B. Cohen) and the work is published by respectable publisher (Springer), so it should be reliable. Is there any particular detail that you're interested in? No source is always reliable, so context is important. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I am checking about the military conflicts between the kingdoms of Deccan during 16th century. Ajayraj890 (talk) 13:39, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

By context I meant an specific details, rather than the whole subject. As an example the book might be generally reliable, but include one specific statement that goes against academic consensus and so would be unreliable for that claim. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:10, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I would like to utilize the information from the second paragraph on page 47. IA (talk) 01:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Which information specifically from that paragraph do you want to use and what statements to you propose to add to the article? Banks Irk (talk) 02:09, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

For anyone interested page 47 should be available here. I can't see anything exceptional, but it could be taken out of context. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

BNN Breaking

While looking for information regarding the Venezuelan opposition article, I encountered this article. Having encountered this source multiple times before I decided to look into it.

BNN Breaking has been linked over 200 times on Wikipedia. The website is a product of Gurbaksh Chahal.[37] It has over 100,000 subscribers on YouTube, 140,000 followers on Facebook and on Twitter, it previously had billions of impressions per month (according to BNN). Recently, BNN Breaking got into a legal dispute with Twitter (X) and was removed from the platform. This resulted with the personal Twitter profile of Chalal receiving half of a million followers.

An October 2023 article titled "'Fake news' site publishes more false stories about San Francisco Supervisor Dean Preston" by the SFGate said that Twitter accounts linked to BNN Breaking "were banned last year for violating policies on spam and misinformation" and that three BNN articles about Dean Preston were "negative" and "each contained misleading or false information." SFGate goes on to write: "One of those stories, which was bylined by BNN Breaking founder Gurbaksh Chahal and was riddled with inaccuracies, referred to Preston as 'arguably the most attention-seeking, spineless, and downright insufferable politician the city has ever seen.' Two sentences later, Chahal boasted that BNN maintains a 'commitment to impartiality.'"

Is there more we can do to determine the reliability of BNN Breaking? Should we take a look at the articles that contain information from BNN Breaking? Or, should we just keep and eye on the BNN Breaking for now? WMrapids (talk) 22:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

They sound like a fake news site but if not it should be easy to find out because they say Day after day, esteemed outlets like The Washington Post, Al Jazeera, Bloomberg, CNN, The Daily Beast, and Yahoo News, turn to BNN Breaking for credible insights. [38] Softlem (talk) 22:26, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Reliability issues at the POV Venezuelan opposition could keep this page busy all month.[39]

Like the other sources used to cite the undue content: "During her speech following her victory in the 2023 Unitary Platform presidential primaries, María Corina Machado used the seven-star flag of Venezuela on stage behind her":

• https://primiciasvenezuela.com/2023/10/24/usuarios-de-las-redes-sociales-estallan-contra-maria-corina-machado-por-mostrar-bandera-de-7-estrellas/
• https://www.elinformadorve.com/24/10/2023/destacada/maria-corina-machado-aqui-todos-estamos-convocados-a-un-proceso-de-construccion/
• https://el-politico.com/actualidad/noticias-el-politico/maria-corina-machado-los-venezolanos-derrotaron-una-forma-de-hacer-politica/

... there are no About us or Contact pages upon which we can judge things like staff, editorial oversight, fact checking, and they all have the same look and feel, designed to push info via clickbait for social media like Facebook.

Perhaps these websites provide a new extension of chavista propaganda (the Venezuelan branch of "fake news"). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

While we're at it, I should also point out to one of the latest reports of the Venezuelan fact-checking coalition C-Informa: #CiberalianzaAlDescubierto: El Mazo y las redes anónimas se unen para desinformar. ("#CiberallianceUncovered: El Mazo and the anonymous networks join forces to misinform"). It dsicusses how government astrosurfing campaigns and disinformation networks, which previously targeted leaders such as Juan Guaidó or Leopoldo López, now take aim at María Corina Machado shortly before and after the opposition presidential primaries. One of their tactics is precisely impersonating reliable news outlets, and an eye should be kept out for the upcoming presidential elections next year. --NoonIcarus (talk) 14:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Sample, note:

• https://web.archive.org/web/20090824115648/http://www.elinformador.com.ve/quienes-somos

Versus:

• https://www.elinformadorve.com/ (no about page)

And then there's Bolivarian Army of Trolls.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

WMrapids, the sources all look similar and may be related; don't unilaterally close off discussion (there are plenty of well-informed editors who can and will do that here if/when necessary). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

GNIS regurgitators

background Project:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 357#RfC: GNIS and Project:Reliability of GNIS data

• Sprekelsville, California (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System: Sprekelsville, California — "Original Citation: Occidental College. Accessed from classic.oxy.edu on 15 December 2005"
• http://classic.oxy.edu at the Wayback Machine (archived 2005-12-15)
• Stockton, Arizona (AfD discussion)

Failing the Sprekelsville test:

• https://california.hometownlocator.com/ca/el-dorado/sprekelsville.cfm

Failing the Stockton test:

• https://roadsidethoughts.com/az/stockton-xx-mohave-profile.htm — The non-existent people at an uninhabited former mine from the 1890s don't self-identify as "Stocktonians".

The subject of GNIS regurgitators has come up again at Alden, Colorado (AfD discussion). Dlthewave has mentioned these before; and hometownlocator and roadsidethoughts are two of the frequently used ones, cited as sources to — ironically — bolster or replace the known-unreliable GNIS. roadsidethoughts in particular makes it very clear that it is a GNIS regurgitator, and they all have all of the problems associated with the underlying GNIS data.

Aside: The Sprekelsville Test is quite useful in other ways. There is a Spreckels family in California associated with a lot of stuff, historically, some of which is linked from that page. But that is Spreckels, with a c. On the presumption that someone from Occidental College did say something about the Spreckels, even though that doesn't pan out when one consults the Wayback Machine's archive, the fact that they got a mis-spelling and the site of the El Dorado Limestone Mine on Shingle Mine Road by Deer Creek south-west of Shingle Springs, California into the GNIS by a wholly wrong name in 2005 should be telling us that the GNIS, which famously mangled names for EBCDIC purposes anyway, is unreliable for even names.

So we really should have something in the Reliable Sources lists that points out that the GNIS regurgitators are just as bad as using the GNIS directly — which effectively one is as it's all machine-generated from the GNIS computerized records.

Uncle G (talk) 09:33, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed; in fact (as creator of the Sprekelsville PROD) I wouldn't be averse to a "generally unreliable" evaluation of GNIS, RoadsideThoughts, and HometownLocator (and the like) all around. The latter sites are SEO garbage, and I'm appalled by the number of United States geographic articles sourced only to them (see my recent PROD nominations for examples). And some of these sites appear to get data from Wikipedia, creating an Ouroboros of trivial (if not patently false) geographic misinformation. This is as much a WP:GEOLAND issue as it is a reliable sources issue, but if we can get sources declared unreliable for geographic purposes, that's a step in the right direction. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 01:20, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

• Delete - These aggregators are worse than the databases they draw from because the sources are unclear and there's no apparent effort to fact-check or maintain accuracy as required by WP:RS, they're simply duplicating the data along with all errors. I can't imagine a situation where an aggregator is a better source than readily-available GNIS or census records. –dlthewave ☎ 14:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

GNIS is really not that bad, you just have to use your head a little. Normally I wouldn't comment on a thread like this, but I happen to specifically climb mountains using GNIS quadrangles of Shingle Springs, and they're fine for all my own purposes. I agree that sources which obviously procedurally aggregate and republish GNIS data are no more accurate than GNIS itself, though. jp×g🗯️ 23:50, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The quad maps are a USGS product which predate and were one source for GNIS. I don't think anyone has questioned the reliability of the topo quads. fiveby(zero) 02:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Err, Sprekelsville is on the recent quad map! Never seen this before. Did anybody ever figure out what happened here? Hmm, El Dorado Lime and Minerals Company "also known as Sprekels Quarry" fiveby(zero) 03:19, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Uncle G is there a discussion of this "Sprekelsville Test" anywhere? Not that it shouldn't have been deleted or that GNIS doesn't have problems or the aggregators are junk etc. ,but just for my own curiosity as to how this ended up in a quad map. Claus Spreckels is spelled as Sprekels often enough in newspapers to make me think it possibly wasn't a misspelling and the family might have just changed the spelling. There were works in the area before the El Dorado Limestone Company and limestone is used in the refinement of sugar beets. It's not too improbably that there once was a place called Sprekelsville and GNIS is correct, i'm just wondering how it ended up on a quad map. fiveby(zero) 04:48, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Is http://afe.easia.columbia.edu a reliable source for info on asian history?

I've been trying to find a reliable source for the Mongol Battle Standard shown in vexilla mundi, and this website has an article on just that. Is this website a reliable source? Sci Show With Moh (talk) 01:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Vexilla Mundi is a hobby site run by a non-expert, the relevant policy is WP:SPS. It not a reliable source for Wikipedia's purposes. I can't find any use of it by on afe.easia.columbia.edu, could you clarify what you're asking? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:41, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I want to source the use of war tugs by the mongols, and there's an article on there about just that: http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/pop/genghis/standard_pop.htm. I'm not asking if vexilla mundi is a reliable source, only the site I linked in the title. Sci Show With Moh (talk) 14:00, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. I agree with Banks Irk's comments below. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Looks OK to me. Academic site, qualified authors/editors. One caveat: The site is designed for elementary and secondary school educators in developing lesson plans. [40] As such, it is sort of like a textbook. College level texts are recognized as reliable sources, but typically not lower level texts. But, in this case it is probably OK, but I would prefer a better source. Perhaps the references on the site will provide a stronger source.Banks Irk (talk) 15:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)