Talk:Western tulku

Neutrality

Western tulkus are being taken out of context here. The context at Tulku shows that criticism of tulkus is not limited to Westerners. Further discussion at Talk:Tulku#Neutrality. Skyerise (talk) 19:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

This page discusses Western tulku, not tulku more generally. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!_{(talk or whatever)} 19:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

We don't split pages by ethnicity. We don't have pages for Western guru, Western shaman, Western swami or Western yogi. There is a reason for that. This is an attack page focused on the deficiencies of ethnically Western people who happen to have been formally recognized by Tibetan lamas in the context of a Tibetan system of a Tibetan religion. It is completely inappropriate to separate the article by ethnicity. Honestly I should speedy it as an attack page. Skyerise (talk) 19:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Speedy it then. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!_{(talk or whatever)} 19:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Maybe. But first I'll bring it up at [[WP:BLPN], since it is ultimately a BLP issue. I'd rather an uninvolved editor speedy it. Skyerise (talk) 19:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Do both. Call up Jimmy Wales and complain to him, too. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!_{(talk or whatever)} 19:18, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Why? The last time you told me to "bring it on", you immediately started whining about it when I did and haven't stopped since. I doubt your sincerity due to that. Skyerise (talk) 19:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Are you going to do it or not? Speedy it or bring it up at BLP or write Jimmy Wales an angry letter about how white people are being slandered on his website. I'm still going to defend the page and will gladly do it in a WP:SPEEDY discussion. I tell you to "bring it on" because I'm not afraid of Wikipedia talk page threats about how you'll flag this reverse racist page for DELETION!!!!! MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!_{(talk or whatever)} 19:25, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

What's your hurry? I'll get around to it when I get around to it. Skyerise (talk) 19:30, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Not all tulkus are lamas

Not all tulkus are lamas. They are independent categories. The title of tulku is bestowed on reincarnations. Most are recognized as children. The title of lama is bestowed on completion of training including a three-year retreat. Unless a recognized tulku completes this training including the three-year retreat, they are not also lamas. Most, but not all, Tibetan tulkus complete this training. Of the "Western tulkus", Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo has completed training as a lama. Tenzin Ösel Hita completed some of the training, but ultimately opted out. He has not been made a lama. As for Steven Seagal, I don't believe he has undergone training to be a lama either. Tulkus are not automatically lamas, and I've changed the lead sentence to remove this erroneous assumption. Skyerise (talk) 12:38, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Abuse of {{in use}} and {{under construction}} templates

The article does not appear to be under extensive expansion or major restructuring. The sources have been exhausted, and the editor who created the article has been adding material which is not specific to Western tulkus, but rather belongs in Tulku. The {{In use}} template has been repeatedly abused to prevent editing while the creator was sleeping, not changing it to {{under construction}} as is proper. I request that another editor remove this template, as it is being abused. Skyerise (talk) 15:06, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Current sources have not been exhausted and I still have sources to add -- hence why I have declined to alphabetize them (it will be easier to run them all together through a script when I am finished adding sources rather than doing it in situ one-by-one.) Also, assume good faith: falling asleep after (or during!) editing while a bot or other users remove a stale WIP template is not using it to prevent edits -- especially when a certain user doesn't seem to care about those templates, anyway, and will disrupt what they see as a racist article by any means possible. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!_{(talk or whatever)} 15:13, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Requests to assume good faith fall flat when the poster is not assuming good faith. Skyerise (talk) 15:15, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Can't assume good faith when you've consistently made it obvious you have a personal issue with the page -- i.e. you think the page is racist. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!_{(talk or whatever)} 15:19, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I have clearly stated that my issue is that tulkus are tulkus and that the division is ethnically motivated. I have no problem with criticism of Western tulkus, a position which you have repeatedly misrepresented. You have gone so far at to accuse me of "white Buddhist rage" - even though you have no knowledge of my race or my gender (I am a woman, by the way, you have misgendered me repeatedly). Stop putting words in my mouth and making up motivations for me. I don't believe the topic should be divided by ethinicity: you refuse to address that and continue to mischaracterize my motivation as objecting to valid criticism of Western tulkus. You haven't shown good faith since the very beginning, instead choosing to mischaracterize my actual objection with your own strawman. Skyerise (talk) 15:26, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

You have outright called the page racist, accused it of singling out white people, and censored information about race, racism, and cultural appropriation. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!_{(talk or whatever)} 15:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, dividing a topic by race is racist (see racial segregation and apartheid). Tibetan lamas freely give their teachings and recognitions. Cultural appropriation is not being done by Westerners here. The term only applies when cultures are appropriated without permission. It does not apply to this situation at all. No Westerner discussed here has claimed a title; they were given it. Skyerise (talk) 15:33, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I cannot believe you just compared this to apartheid and segregation. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!_{(talk or whatever)} 15:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

You are attempting to divide a topic by race. Both your accusation of "white Buddhist rage" against me as well as statements which you added to the article which equate "fully Western" with "white" exposes your racist intent. You replaced it with a link to white people - and yet "Western" is a cultural term. I'm sure fully Western African Americans and Latin Americans would object to your characterization. "Western" includes all people brought up in Western cultures, not just "white people". The fact that you could write material that assumes otherwise exposes your racial motivations. Skyerise (talk) 15:58, 5 November 2023 (UTC)