Wikipedia talk:Image use policy
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Collages in infoboxes
editI have observed a recent spate of editors adding collages to infoboxes for military conflict articles. These might consist of four, six and sometimes more images. In my view, these are too noisy. If they do not significantly increase the footprint of the infobox, they are too small to be viewable. Furthermore, detailed captions add to and bloat the infobox. Infobox size is a particular issue for mobile devices. It is my view that collages as a lead image are generally inappropriate and contrary to P&G on several points.
- Per WP:COLLAGE, collages
are single images that illustrate multiple closely related concepts, where overlapping or similar careful placement of component images is necessary to illustrate a point in an encyclopedic way
[emphasis added]. Such collages do not satisfy image use policy. The rationale for use appears to be largely decorative. - Per MOS:PERTINENCE:
Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding.
This is consistent with WP:IMGCONTENT (policy):The purpose of an image is to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter, usually by directly depicting people, things, activities, and concepts described in the article. The relevant aspect of the image should be clear and central
[emphasis added]. - WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE would tell us (in essence) not to try to write the article in the infobox and that,
[t]he less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose ...
Collages would appear to be inconsistent with this. - Cognative theory and good presentation practice would tell us that too much visual information in one place is counterproductive (ie a sensory overload) and hence, my view that such images are too noisy.
- Editors adding such collages would apply a justification of other stuff. However, this is only a reasonable justification if it represents best practice represented by our best quality articles. Very few (if any) of our best quality articles use collages for a lead image.
My reading of P&G and best practice is that the use of collages as lead images/in infoboxes generally and for military conflicts more specifically, should be exceptional.
Comments please. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- On one hand, I understand that you can't cover the breadth and scope of many wars with a single image, let alone massive conflicts like World War II. On the other, I agree that generally you see very little in most montages and that many don't feel effectively chosen for their significance versus the "niceness" of the image itself or the decoration they provide (to use the WWII example, the atomic bombing of Japan makes innate sense to me as a major element of the end of the war, or a shot of Stalingrad for its considered role as the "turning point" of the war. Images of tank or aircraft make some sense in terms of the mechanization of war but the choices seem overall random, and the entire collage doesn't do a great job illustrating the global nature of the conflict, its civilian toll, etc. Some of this feels like it wouldn't be as much of an issue if people didn't want an infobox over all else (I've got a collage image as the lead for Art Deco architecture of New York City to demonstrate the different styles the form took in the city across the boroughs it's prominent in, but it's allowed to be more than 30% larger by virtue of not being in an infobox.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 13:00, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- In most cases I've seen in these infobox collage discussions where the topic couldn't be covered with a single image, it couldn't really be covered by 3-6 images either. The exact same problem is faced. There are probably some topics out there which are very well summarised with 3-6 images, but perhaps by that very nature they don't lend themselves to extended disputes about image inclusions. CMD (talk) 02:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Cinderella157, it might be worth making this a broader proposal rather than specific to military conflicts. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- In most cases I've seen in these infobox collage discussions where the topic couldn't be covered with a single image, it couldn't really be covered by 3-6 images either. The exact same problem is faced. There are probably some topics out there which are very well summarised with 3-6 images, but perhaps by that very nature they don't lend themselves to extended disputes about image inclusions. CMD (talk) 02:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. They are awful and should be banned. Otherwise the number of them will inexorably grow, as they are (like over-loaded infoboxes) another thing that editors who can't or won't add text love to do. Johnbod (talk) 13:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- There are good clean examples of info ox collages like in most city articles. But this is generally based on using images that have strong contrast and clear features like city skylines and key buildings or infrastructure, so that as a thumbnail it's still easy to read. Pictures from WWII aren't going to have the same contrast or clarity at small sizes so, a collage doesn't make sense here. Masem (t) 14:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- Collages have long been controversial. There are some editors who wish that our policies and guidelines did more to restrict their use, but to say that the present language of PAG restricts them is a major stretch/overstatement. Please don't conflate an argument with what you'd like them to say with interpretation of what they presently say. Sdkb talk 14:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- There's some policy based arguments to be made against certain collages, but I don't think current policy prohibits them. Certainly poor contrast collages and those that poorly illustrate the subject are bad, and probably a poor choice according to policy. Infoboxes are poor at handling complexity (this isn't just related to images), but that is because they are meant to show simplified information. Dispersing images through out article is a better way to illustrate the subject, but that doesn't mean all collages should go. It certainly seems as if some collages are being added because they are collages, and that doesn't look like careful consideration of the subject or the articles needs. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Cinderella and infobox collages should be strongly discouraged, and certainly not expanded. One good image is better than 6 postage stamps; Actual Studies done by real UI / usability types show that users like Big Images. A collage can be acceptable (if not encouraged) for truly gigantic conflicts where only showing a single image might provoke a nationalist reaction (World War II the canonical example here), which is unfortunate because WW2 is probably the most viewed war article, but it should be the exception, not the rule. That being said, I think that the old hesitance regarding galleries in some policies was misplaced, so I'm fine with the laudable goal of moving more images into articles - just create a gallery section to throw them into, and since the current gallery defaults are still unfortunately postage-stamp size, throw in a custom widths & heights parameters so that they're legibile. Galleries also display nicely on the mobile app, which is how a lot of readers see Wikipedia. On mobile, they can easily be scrolled through, or scrolled past if a reader isn't interested, unlike an infobox collage. SnowFire (talk) 22:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- The question is specifically about "military conflicts", and I think this (i.e., "only showing a single image might provoke a nationalist reaction") is the key difficulty: you can't put up an image from "one side" and claim that inherently biased choice will "illustrate [the] point in an encyclopedic way". Multiple images could, however, be an "important illustrative aid to understanding" – by illustrating that there isn't just one, single important thing to know here. It is perhaps a literal case of the medium is the message: Giving multiple images shows that there are multiple viewpoints.
- That said, it's possible that these collages would be better placed outside of infoboxes, so that they can be larger. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:53, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Strongly concur with Cinderella157, on every point. Infoboxes are for ultra-concisely convenying the key-facts gist, and absoltely do not serve an image-gallery function. WP even discourage (per MOS:GALLERIES) image galleries at all (in the body) unless there are one or more prescribed good reasons for adding one. It's completely inappropriate to make what amounts to one in an infobox, where doing it is also a serious accessiblity problem for anyone without amazing eyesight. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)`
- I usually enjoy these collages in articles about cities. With military conflicts, it is different: to give an example, the infoboxes of the Coalition Wars all look essentially the same to me: First, Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh: some paintings of battles, sometimes involving ships. The twelve infobox images in the Sixth Coalition article might be better placed in the sections discussing these battles. —Kusma (talk) 11:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Discussion at WT:CSD § F8 and keep local
editYou are invited to join the discussion at WT:CSD § F8 and keep local. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Privacy protection
editHi I have question. Is there any policy that protect a person's photo privacy (found in the article/page)? I.e. Elizabeth is a former actress that worked within adult industry. On her article, the infobox has an image showing cleavage. Elizabeth is however no longer works within the adult industry and regret doing so, and find the image inappropriate, considering many users everyday is reading her wiki page and she believe it's a breach of her privacy. She wants to replace with another picture or without any picture. Is there any Wikipedia policy/guidelines that allows to replace the image and protects her rights? 2A00:23EE:10B0:7735:A55E:46DC:804A:949F (talk) 21:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:Not censored; WP:Outing would be relevant. Wikipedia is timeless, so if something is of encyclopedic interest then it remains so. But if a better image is available then that could be the lead image. Images can only be used if appropriate permission was supplied, and that means that the right to "privacy" is forgone. Some rights may be retained by the law, eg right not to be used in an advertisement. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Donald J. Harris
editDonald J. Harris is the father of Kamala Harris. Pictures of him seem hard to find. There is one proposed in this discussion] on his article's talk page. It is from the Stanford Economics Department. I'm guessing Stanford has the copyright. How does one verify this? If it is copyrighted, what are our options? How long can fair use be employed? Any help with these questions or with finding a public domain image of Donald Harris will be greatly appreciated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- The page on which that image appears has a Stanford University copyright notice, so lacking any other information we assume that to apply to the image - you could certainly ask them directly to verify, or check whether the image has been published elsewhere with other details. Generally speaking, fair use wouldn't be possible for an image of a living person since (in theory) a free image could be created at any time. (Given that his daughter is a US federal officeholder, possibly he appeared at an event where he might have been photographed by a federal employee?) Nikkimaria (talk) 02:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for this great reply Nikkimaria. Sadly, I don't think father and daughter are close. They might even be estranged. He seems to have a low public profile, even though he was a Stanford University professor. But maybe if she triumphs in November, they'll make up and the possibilities thereafter will skyrocket. Thanks again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:54, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- PS I take back some of what I said above. Donald J. Harris has written a warm family memoir here, which has more recent family pictures, but sadly all copyrighted. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hello again, @Nikkimaria: The Lawrence Berkeley National Lab is a Federal lab. Is the picture in this newsletter public domain? Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not KH's father, but a better picture of her mother. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- The lab is federally funded but is not a federal agency. The photo is copyrighted and the credit specifically indicates a copyright held by the university regents. Whpq (talk) 18:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not KH's father, but a better picture of her mother. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for this great reply Nikkimaria. Sadly, I don't think father and daughter are close. They might even be estranged. He seems to have a low public profile, even though he was a Stanford University professor. But maybe if she triumphs in November, they'll make up and the possibilities thereafter will skyrocket. Thanks again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:54, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sometimes, if you contact the person or employer, they will provide a suitably licensed photo. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:36, 6 August 2024 (UTC)