Taga guinpucan

Actually I am addressing this message to the administrator of Wikipedia. My recent article about Carmen, San Agustin, Romblon was deleted. The reason was it contains copied table of contents.

Please recheck again the deleted file and review again if it merits to be deleted. This article is for the benefit of Carmen's and environs close to 10,000 residents who are denied of any printed historical account of their community. If this is what you think is good for them, then I can't do anything. I am afraid the article about Sugod , San Agustin, Romblon will be deleted as well though I'm still planning to create articles for Mahababangbaybay, Sugod, Cawayan and Caboulutan, all in San Agustin, Romblon, now I have second tought about it. I don't want to waste my energy anymore.

Please let me know if you are going to delete article Sugod, San Agustin, Romblon so at least I can copy it first. Please forward any action to my email taga_guinpucan@yahoo.com before any actions. Thank you.

I only noticed this message because I was watching the Special:Recentchanges page... I'm not a mod, but you'll have a LOT more sucsess if you use the Wikipedia:Deletion review process.--AgentCDE / Talk / 13:47, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Fixing your page

Hi Taga guinpucan,

There's a lot of good information on your page, but a lot of problems, too. A few fairly easy things you can do:

1) Entirely delete or replace phrases such as "very much concerned about developing" and especially "epitome of progress". Wiki isn't the place to use marketing language.

2) Cite things correctly. It's not very difficult to do, but putting stuff like "Source of Information: Romblon Historical Data..." definitely shows you are doing homework. But you need to make it easy for other editors to find that information and check it. (It doesn't seem to me at all that you are misquoting, but you would be surprised at how many Wiki citations are misquotes!) Here's a couple examples (click "Edit this page" on the tabs at the top of this talk page to see what the look like):

They come from this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_depictions_of_ravens

3) While you are on the above page, look at the layout. Change your layout so it looks more like the ravens one.

To the moderator,

Thanks for your advices and tips. I am not very good in grammar but I'm learning fast. I will follow those pointers and guidlines to make it more wikified. However, I would like to complain one user who vandalized Santa fe, Romblon web page signed as 125.212.78.159, he changed the names of barangays to offensive names and wrote that Santa Fe is the hometown of whores and prostitutes and it is the worst place here on earth. Please blacklist him to prevent from similar damages and from futher damaging the good wikipedia site. Thanks and best regards

It was Great

From the article Ravens I learned how to make reference list. I will update my other contributions to appear it more professional and reliable. I stand firm that entries here are correct and deligently researched even to resorting interview with the old folks in the villages. It's great to learn the history of your birthplace and imparting your knowledge to your 'Kabayan' or 'Kasimanwa' as we say it in Romblon language. The site is great! (This is not a marketing comment, but my own opinion) Thanks..

Cawayan, San Agustin, Romblon

Another editor has added the "{{prod}}" template to the article Cawayan, San Agustin, Romblon, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the {{prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. BJBot (talk) 07:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Google Earth Map Label for Sta. Maria, Romblon was misapplied as Concepcion, Romblon. Santa Maria's former name was Concepcion Norte which was changed to Imelda when it baecame a town and replaced into santa Maria after the people power revolution. Concepcion Norte, Santa Maria is a different entity with Concepcion municipality located in Maestro de Campo Island. Please correct.

To the Moderator, Intruder pls Help

There is one vandal 125.60.243.104 who is adding nonsense historical contribution about world war II events in the municipalities of Alcantara, Banton, Cajidiocan, Calatrava, Concepcion, Corcuera, Looc, Magdiwang, Odiongan, Romblon, San Agustin, San Fernando, and Santa Fe by adding and editing events allegedly that in 1945 Filipino guerillas defeated the Japanese during world war 2. My Uncle was a veteran and he spoke to me that these are not true besides it is out of context. He too is not native english speaker. Please help block this vandal I plead!.

Sources

Hi, thanks for your contributions, but please include sources for the information you add. Unsourced and questionable information added to wikipedia is likely to be deleted. See the policy on Verifiability. Thanks! TheCoffee (talk) 06:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Sourcing and copyright status of your additions

I just noticed your recent additions of a large amount of material to the Romblon, Romblon article. The material had some problems with wikification, which I began to try to improve. Working through the material, I became more and more concerned with lack of sourcing, and concerned about its copyright status. I commented on that here. Looking at your edit history, I see the following:

mainspace edits
61	Alcantara, Romblon
57	San Fernando, Romblon
55	Looc, Romblon
55	Cajidiocan, Romblon
35	Concepcion, Romblon
31	Magdiwang, Romblon
27	Santa Maria, Romblon
25	San Jose, Romblon
25	Santa Fe, Romblon
18	Romblon, Romblon
16	Mahabangbaybay, San Agustin, Romblon
15	Cabolutan, San Agustin, Romblon
14	Banton, Romblon
11	Corcuera, Romblon
11	Calatrava, Romblon
talk page edits:
9	Taga guinpucan
3	Mike Rosoft

I see that your exchange with User:Mike Rosoft on his talk page involved citation issues and copyright concerns regarding an article about Carmen, San Agustin, Romblon. Going by the edit dates,it looks like that resulted in the unsigned anonymous response which begins the Fixing your page section of this talk page.

Looking at some of the other articles which you have edited, I see more detailed and unattributed material. Thank you for contributing to wikipedia, but much of the material you added needs to be attributed. I am concerned about possible copyright infringement issues.

Comments? Just add your response here -- I will keep this talk page on my watchlist and will look for your response. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 02:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

On your Comments

Thanks for citing your concern. I firmly believed that there was no violations made on my contributions in as much that most of my contributions were gathered from my own personal research on local records of each municipalities for its local civil registries of bautismos, casamientos, defunctiones, military and taxition records during Spanish times, data on schools and many others from the microfilm files found at the family heritage library of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later day Saints in Whiteplains central temple in Quezon City, Philippines. I did not copy on other websites, if however the stories or my narrations might be similar to the rest, it is because it had been our oral history that eveyone in the province already knew which our old folks has narrated to us already.

It seems to me as if what you are doing is what is called in the Wikipedia community Original research. Original research is valuable, but is not acceptable in Wikipedia articles. Please read Wikipedia policies WP:NOR and WP:V and guidelines WP:RS and WP:CITE. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 11:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

On Original Research

I agree with you. In my next visit to this website, I'll post my references and improve my article to meet wikipedia standards. Thank you for commenting. Most of the articles I mentioned are also available in the Historical Data of Romblon found at the Filipiniana division National Library in Manila, Philippines. Thank you

I've re-edited this section to put in the customary talk-page conversation indents.

I see that the article has been edited to add some References. The citation format doesn't conform to WP:CITE guidelines, but that could be fixed if the citations contained sufficient information to do that — which they do not. Info about author, publisher, publication date, etc. needs to be provided. Enough information needs to be provided that other editors can locate the source, make a judgement about its reliability (see WP:RS) and verify that the info from that source does support the info in the article (see WP:C and that the article does not violate copyright restrictions by, for example, copying large belock of text verbatim from copyrighted sources (see WP:COPY. Incidentally, just by chance I happen to be in Romblon, Romblon at the moment. I stopped by the municipal library (so-called), and could not find any of the referenced sources there. I'll be passing through Manili in a couple of weeks and will try to find time to visit the national library while I'm there. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Personal Letter to Mr. Boracay Bill Good day to you Bill, To be honest, there are many writers and website designers from my home province Romblon asking me about source of my information, honestly, I am feed-up of the current available local histories found in most Romblon websites saying Romblon was formerly Lomlom then Donblon from the word Lomlom or hen hatching its eggs, but the story stops there, as if a fairy tale since nobody bothered to research on what really happened to these islands in the past. I am a history lover that even during my college days, I keep on compiling interesting data about Romblon and it is only now or just very recently that I finally organized it into one whole book, entitled the “History of Carmen including Historical and Cultural background of northeastern barangays of San Agustin”. I donated personally one copy to the chief librarian at the municipal library in Romblon, Romblon last 2006, perhaps around month of July. I wonder why you are telling me now that you cannot find the book since this was the only prized book in their library according to that lady librarian (I’m quoting exactly her words) this when I handed it to her. I learned about the many available microfilm documents at the Mormons Family Heritage Library when I was doing research on our family tree prior to our grand Marin’s clan reunion held last 2000. While digging into old files, I stumbled on many valuable historical files regarding Romblon’s history which were reproduced from the original books and manuscripts found at achieves from the National Historical Institute and from the National Library. Therefore, I did two researches, one for our Marin clan and another for the history of Romblon particulary Carmen. I’m glad to tell you that church records I found for Cajidiocan is intact and in good condition beginning 1779 (microfilm). From there I traced our family tree and reproduced copies related to history. I did contribute histories on several Romblon towns out of these files. For the data on Romblon’s provincial executives, I took it from the schools data of Capiz, again from Mormons library from earliest time until 1853. And from Romblon school’s records until 1898. It was in Spanish but anyway I can understand little Spanish. Data on census during Spanish time was also from there including information on taxation, rebeldes (katipuneros) who were imprisoned during Spanish time, military records, census of foreigners staying in Romblon during Spanish time, commerce and trade on goods imported and exported from the province. And mind you, librarians at |Mormons library are very helpful and kind to assist you unlike in our National Library and at the National Historical Institute where staff are very lazy, arrogant and very selfish (sorry to tell you this, but this was my observation). On the other hand, Singapore national library has many books pertaining to Spanish Philippines where I gathered articles on the establishment of pueblo Sibuyan in 1744. I worked in Singapore from 2000-2004. Old pictures in my book were gathered from Singapore national library, also I got many documents from the former GSIS library, but the library now and its books are gone, I don’t know what happened with it. As to the establishment of Romblon pueblos, census records for Romblon before it became a PMC are from the microfilm of “Guia official de las islas Filipinas” found at rare books (microfilm) section of the nat'l library, while old maps attached to my book are from the map section of the National Library at Filipiniana with the librarians there again very lazy and arrogant and unwilling to help me because the old maps are very dirty and dusty according to her. At Filipiniana section, you will find “Historical data of Romblon” For data on land area for each barangays and municipalities I took the records from the defunct bureau of coast and geodetic survey, forerunner of NAMRIA, because data here are more accurate than that one found at the bureau of Lands and from the National Statistics Office or census (NCSO) because I don’t believe on their figures, say Calatrava is larger in land area than San Andres town, impossible. If you need further information, please email me at taga_guinpucan@yahoo.com. Thanks, Ray

Ray, I'm interested in WP generally more than I am in Romblon specifically. As I said, though, I happened to be in Romblon, Romblon earlier this month and stopped by the tiny municipal library there to ask about books on the history of Romblon. I was shown half a dozen or so shelved books on general Philippine history — Agoncillo's History of the Filipino People, etc. That's as far as it went. I could have spent more time at the library, but I didn't. I could have dug deeper, but I didn't. I had other things to do, and I did those other things instead.

I expect to be back in Romblon in late June. Perhaps you and I can get together then, and you can help me locate supporting sources for the info in the WP articles about the various Romblon province municipalities. I'll be happy to sit down, read the articles with the supporting sources in hand, and try to insert appropriate supporting cites.

I don't want to question your expertise or your dedication. However, where Wikipedia is concerned, Wikipedia policies and guidelines apply. Regarding your book, WP:SPS (part of the WP:V policy) probably applies. Regarding your research, WP:OR (also a WP policy} probably applies. The WP:RS and WP:CITE WP guidelines, among others, are also relevant.

Where is this "Morman library" which you mention above? -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Bill, I am very willing to sit down with you and to help me organized my seond book which I love also to post some articles in WP. However, I am an OFW or overseas Filipino contract worker, presently working here in doha, qatar in an australian contracting firm Leighton. Mormons library is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints - Family Heritage Library at White Plains, Quezon City near EDSA shrine. From Ortigas you may take taxi and while in the library, look for Sis. Rose, she is an old lady and an old timer in the library and she is very kind to assist you. Almost every documents found in archieves are also reproduces and deposited in their vault. it is very interesting and exciting especially if you dig on something that everybody are craving for. By Feb, 2009 i'll be on vacation for one month. I hope to see you in Romblon or in Boracay. thanks for the help.

San Fernando, Romblon

There was an intruder again to the wikipedia site of San Fernando, Romblon signed as Logano. Please monitor his activities on other wikipedia sites as he is creating nonsense insertions and editions.

Cabolutan San Agustin Romblon

Does it merit to delete important information on certain locality in the Philippines because as you perceived it, it doest meet your standard? I believe it is more constructive to help edit and wikify it rather that delete it partly or totally from your pages. The history of Cabolutan is being used by Primary, Secondary and even Tertiary Students of Cabolutan and even other students in the big cities of Manila and Roxas City where Romblon is attached under its Arch-Diocese who are doing research on this historical place most especially those enrolled in the seminary for their history subject.

In fact, there was one Spanish national who was very interested to know about this place. When he sent email to me as recommended by my cousin who is now a Spanish citizen, I directed him to wikipedia to do his own reasearch. I spoke to him that since Caboultan is the oldest settlement in Tablas Island and the 3rd town or pueblo to be created in the what is now Romblon province, Philippines, records and munuscripts I believed are available in your Spanish libraries and archieves, I told him. But your wikipedia guided him for the idea where he would start with.

Mga Kasimanwa and to All who needs historical info on Cabolutan

Please send your quiries via email to taga_guinpucan@yahoo.com. I will send to you the original postings on Cabolutan.

Odiongan, Romblon wikipage

Please do not alter the population/census by summarizing it. There are many researchers who want to gather information with it.

Mahabangbaybay, San Agustin, Romblon wikipage

Someone altered the data entries and figures for Mahabangbaybay. My suggestion, if you want to contribute, please donot alter previous entries, however, you may do so by posting new entries by creating new chapter for Mahabangbaybay webpage, thanks.

To Wikipedia Moderator

I just wonder why all the articles about Romblon Province and all its 17 municipalities were now deleted from the pages of Wikipedia? It is a pity and a great loss to those who are genuinely interested of knowing the province, its history, culture and also to learn about the great people of Romblon. Wikipedia had been a great help among students and researchers alike for years and even among the children of these Romblomanon people who have settled already in other parts of the world, their only way to learn about Romblon is through the e-pages of Wikipedia. Please advise us if we don't have a space here in wikipedia, and that would be alright. In fact lately, we are planning to improve the pages by adding citations, pictures and other entries, but we were surprised to learn that all entries and contributions for the 17 municipalities of Romblon province were now no where to find. Paging wikipedia moderator: Any explaination? Taga guinpucan (talk) 08:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, again. If you want to roll back the pages to previous edits made by yourself, you can always do that. The articles weren't deleted but just redirected to San Agustin, Romblon, so there is a way back. Anyway, if you really plan to, and can make assertion of notability and other Wikipedia core policies by adding additional reliable references and other useful information, that would be an awesome point to start from. Please tell me if you have any issues concerning article managing, and I'll be glad to help. I can understand that you've invested a big amount of time and effort in these articles, and in no way intended to frustrate or irritate you. Regards --Mamaberry11 (talk) 10:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Deletion

Open Message to all of my Townmates and Researchers:

I deleted the remaining undeleted entries on Population at Various Times for San Agustin. It is the only data left after the moderator deleted all our contributions to this page and I believe it will be of no use without its accompanying history. My apology to all of you. Taga guinpucan (talk) 08:17, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Signature

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. Mamaberry11 (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you delete also San Agustin's Population at Various Times, it is of no use now since you deleted already the history of San Agustin where it should be in reference to the deleted history, now removed. I am the one who contributed for both History and Population at Various time. We will leave San Agustin article with only the map and the short introduction with its obsolete Year 2000 census data on population, latest census is 2007, again citation required. I do not think other Romblomanon historians will contribute again to wikipedia after this incidence as I will be alarming them, Kudus! Taga guinpucan (talk) 08:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion , both sections "San Agustin's Population at Various Times" and "History of San Agustin" are two subjects independent of each other. That is to say, each section deserves attention and improvement, but as long as information hasn't met the basic criteria for content (WP:N, WP:OR, WP:V and so on), they shouldn't be included in the encyclopedia. Anyway, the "San Agustin's Population at Various Times" data seemed at least legitimate to me, so I decided to keep it there. Further, I feel that generally speaking, population history data is independent of general history. Oh, and I think it's also better we close this discussion by doing what should be done according to the rules, rather than telling others what they should do.--Mamaberry11 (talk) 09:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Deletion (Last Part)

Lahat ng mga articles ko at ng ibang mga contributors pa para sa wikipedia about Romblon at mga municipalities nito, binura. Dati pag may pinatatanggal, nag-aabiso muna, ngayon, nagulat ako lahat nalang binura. Sa Sanrokan ko nalang i-post ang mga Logo at mga pictures ng Town hall, Church, Public Market at Plaza ng bawat municipalities na mga kinuha ko at sa yong mga pinagawa ko na offical logo at banner ng bawat bayan.

Kahit yong Banton na contribution ni Mr. Ryan Fadri at yong para sa San Andres ni Milex Fabula, di nakaligtas, BINURA rin. Ang sa Ferrol lang ang nakaligtas. Pero yong tabulation ng population, na ako rin mismo ang nag-contribute, di niya binura. Binura ko yong population at various time ng San Agustin kagabi kasi bali wala rin yon silbe kung wala na yong history na reference niya, tapos ngayong umaga, ibinalik din ng moderator. Binura ko nga uli.

Balak ko sana ilipiat sa wikipilipinas, pero napansin ko, lahat ng contribution ni Milex Fabula para sa San Andres, dati ng mag visit ako noon, nandoon pa yon at ang ganda nga, ngayon, binura na rin, kaya isip2 ko, wag nalang, useless din mag contribute sa wikipedia at sayang ang pagod, humihingi pa sila ng mga contribution para daw mapaganda ang mga articles, gusto yata nila blanko lang ang mga history ng mga bayan ng Romblon at ask pa sila ng financial help o contribution pa raw to keep it going, para ano pa, wala ring silbi pala, nakakasama naman ng loob sila.

Pero di bali, na-copya na rin ng maraming websites ang mga history na naipost ko noon sa wikipedia at lagpas din namang 2 years na nasa wikipedia ang bawat article ng bawat municipality. Ok lang ba sa inyo na ilipat ko yong mga articles ng local history natin sa Sanrokan?

The moderator is requesting citation for the brief description of the 5 barangays mentioned above. It was alleged, it will be challenged and deleted if there is no citation. Don't believe on this! I doesn't happen all the time because when I deleted the brief descripting on the 5 brgys mentioned due to my inabiality to produce citations (since I was also the same person who contributed and posted for it). But after every deletion, the mod repost it again and again. The other way around huh?

Which articles are you talking about? I'm willing to check it out and help you with it.--Mamaberry11 (talk) 11:17, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

It is the brief descriptions of the 5 barangays under San Agustin, Romblon. Brgy. Carmen, Cabolutan, Cawayan Mahabangbaybay and Sugod. I already deleted the brief description since I don't have citation to attach on it. Re: Researchers and Students: This is an announcement, please refer to Sanrokan On-line Magazine for deleted entries on the History of the 17 municipalities of Romblon Province, Maestro de Campo Island, the 5 barangays of San Agustin and many more. It will be posted very soon with added features of Logos and Municipal Flags and pictures. 78.101.119.142 (talk) 13:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.101.202.197 (talk) 12:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I've added those articles to my watchlist, so whenever you decide to edit them I will try my best in order to assist you with the articles' formatting so that they comply with Wikipedia's policies. Regards--Mamaberry11 (talk) 17:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't understand you right before (thought you talked about the individual articles). Sorry --Mamaberry11 (talk) 20:36, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Rest assures you that I will never post again in wikipedia. From now on, I will be posting my views on my talk page only. Other local historians of Romblon that I alerted of your move were also sympathetic with me, so you don't need to add us in your watch list and assure you that no sort of vandalism will be posted from our group. Please delete the brief description of Carmen and four other barangays of San Agustin, Romblon so it will be similar with the rest. 89.211.187.199 (talk) 19:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem doing so, but why you don't want to do it by yourself?--Mamaberry11 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I did that already several times, please check the history, but every time I delete it, another moderator repost it again and again.89.211.187.199 (talk) 20:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, thanks a lot for noticing me. I checked this, and you're absolutely right, the San Agustin, Romblon#Population of San Agustin barangays at various times is already covering the whole "Barangays" section; so this section was unnecessary. The problem is that bots (not a human "mod" but an automatic robot) reverted your edit as it indentified it as vandalism, which it was not. the right thing to do in this case is adding a appropriate edit summary explaining the reason for deletion and then maybe a human admin or reviewer will stop the bot from posting back. Don't worry, I did it already. Regards --Mamaberry11 (talk) 20:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

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added links pointing to Santa Maria, San Fernando, Ferrol, Calatrava, San Andres, Alcantara, San Agustin, Roxas and Sabang

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Romblon, Romblon

Hi,

I see that you are apparently the editor who added the cites of Book: History of Carmen including Historical and Cultural Background of North-eastern Barangays of the Municipality of San Agustin, Romblon. Romblon Municipal Library to the Romblon, Romblon article. Today, I visited the Romblon Municipal library and was told (first visit) that the library did not have such a book and (later visit) that a book inventory was underway and that I should go away. I'm leaving Romblon on Thursday 12 April and will be away for several weeks, so I can't do anything further on this. When I come back (probably sometime in June), I would like to pursue this. Specifically, I would like to add page number information to the cites of this book and, possibly, to identify the book a bit more completely in the citation. Can you help with this? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:56, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

San Jose, Romblon

In tthis edit, an anonymous editor has removed the "in my own opinion only, ..." paragraph which you inserted into this article as part of this edit. Please see WP:NOTFORUM. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 06:22, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

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Missionary Centers Established in Politico-Military Commandancia de Romblon in 1878

The villages and missions in the Recollects’ charge are the following in 1878: Romblon, with 1,341 tributes, and 5,858 souls; Badajoz, with 711 tributes, and 3,356 souls; Banton, with 1,181½ tributes, and 4,717 souls; Cajidiocan, with 1,304 tributes, and 7,132 souls; Odiongan, with 5,705 souls; Looc, with 5,449 souls; and Magallanes, with 283½ tributes, and 859 souls. Total (Reported in 1878) – 33,076 souls

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Nomination of Agdapdap Islet for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Agdapdap Islet is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Agdapdap Islet until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Lenticel ^(talk) 07:36, 23 September 2023 (UTC)