Talk:Babrak Karmal

SPANISH VERSION

Babrak Karmal (1929-1996) Líder político comunista, que ocupó los cargos de Primer Ministro (1979-1981) y Presidente (1979-1986) de Afganistán. Realizó sus estudios superiores en la Universidad de Kabul, donde comenzó su acercamiento al marxismo. A principios de los años ‘50 fue encarcelado por realizar actividades antigubernamentales.

Luego de ese período, sirvió en el ejército y retornó a la universidad a titularse de abogado. Fue miembro fundador del Partido Popular Democrático de Afganistán (PDPA, comunista) y desde 1965 hasta 1973 lo representó en la Asamblea Nacional. Cuando en 1967 el PDPA se divide en las facciones Khalq y Parcham, Karmal se convierte en el líder de este último, más moderado y pro-soviético. En 1977 ambas facciones se reunifican y un año más tarde –con la ayuda de URSS- el PDPA toma el poder.

Entonces Karmal es nombrado Primer Ministro adjunto, pero sus rivalidades con el gobierno provocaron que en poco tiempo fuera designado embajador de Afganistán en Praga (Checoslovaquia); medida tendiente a alejarlo del poder. Sin embargo, la drástica transformación de la sociedad afgana bajo los lineamientos marxistas llevada a cabo por el PDPA, provocaron una fuerte oposición armada que deterioró al gobierno. Por ello es que en diciembre de 1979, el ejército soviético invadió el país para sostener al régimen comunista, llamando a Karmal a ocupar los cargos de Presidente y Primer Ministro.

Sin embargo, la oposición armada comenzó a recibir ayuda de las potencias occidentales que ya consideraban el conflicto como parte importante de la Guerra Fría. Esta situación originó fuertes críticas por parte de URSS, que consideró a Karmal como una carga, y públicamente lo culpó de los problemas que enfrentaba Afganistán.

En noviembre de 1986, Karmal renunció a todos sus cargos aduciendo problemas de salud y se retiró de la vida política, autoexiliándose en Moscú. Retornó a Afganistán en octubre de 1991, donde residió hasta noviembre de 1996 cuando es trasladado de urgencia a un hospital en Moscú. En esta ciudad fallece de cáncer al hígado el 1 de diciembre del mismo año, a los 67 años de edad.

(contribution from Germán Castro Besnier, webmaster of www.sigloxx.org)

Ethnicity

On 12 January 2008 Cruizi had added "According to most people in Afghanistan, he was an ethnic Tajik or Qizilbash." to the "Early years" section without providing a citation. On 12 January 2008 Anoshirawan substituted the following for Cruizi's material the "Early years" section, again without citation:

According to most people in Afghanistan, he was an ethnic Kashmiri from his father's side and an ethnic Musakhel Pashtun from his mother's side.

The next day, 13 January 2008, Cruizi replaced Anoshirawan's version with the following text that included a citation:

His ethnicity is unclear but many claim that he was Persian-speaking Tajik or Qizilbash.<ref>Biography of President Babrak Karmal</ref>

The Biography said "Karmal's ethnic background is rather hazy, as was common among those born in or near Kabul, but most agree that he was Tajik or Qizilbash, Persian-speaking background." Again on 13 January 2008, Anoshirawan deleted Cruizi's version and restored his own version, adding a citation:

<ref> Mohammed Kakar , P: "Afghanistan: The Soviet Invasion and the Afghan Response, 1979-1982", University of California Press, 1997</ref>

However, the book cited doesn't quite say what Anoshirawan shortened it to. The text cited to, begins in the middle of page 65 and continues briefly onto page 66. It starts with "Karmal was born in 1929 in the village of Karmari to the east of the city of Kabul," and may be read in its entirety at Google Books, HERE. The fact remains that ethnicity is disputed and hazy, and should be acknowledged as such, if it is important to the article, or otherwise it should be kept out of the article. --Bejnar (talk) 06:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It is sourced with a reliable reference published by University of California and it is important to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RussianRoket (talk • contribs) 07:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The preceding comment was by a sockpuppet of banned editor Beh-nam. But to answer it, if you read the Afghanistan: The Soviet Invasion and the Afghan Response, 1979-1982 text you can see that it is mostly inuendo. For example, "The fact that Karmal's ancestors had immigrated to Kabul, Karmel's statement that he was Pashtun, the fact that his father was not a Pashtun, and his father's reluctance to admit that he was a Tajik -- all these make it doubtful that the family was Tajik originally, although they were integrated into that group. It is the custom in Afghanistan for a person of no ethnic significance to relate himself to the thnic group into which he has been intergrated. Not all Pasto-speaking Afghans are Pashtuns, and not all Persian-speaking Afghans are Tajiks. Karmal went against the custom. This means that, ethnically speaking, the family was insignificant." pp.65-66. Karmel's ethnicity is hazy and in doubt. It would only be meaningful or important if the politics and inuendo was addressed in the article, not just one side or the other. Write a proposed balenced statement here on the talk page and maybe we can reach consensus. Meanwhile, his ethnicity remains contested, with each side siting a source, neither of which is entirely unbiased. --Bejnar (talk) 17:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

What the book is saying is he a "Tajikized" Kashmiri/Pashtun. BEIJINGBOY2 (talk) 17:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say book, I said source. The source cited by Cruizi was the Biography of President Babrak Karmal at Afghanland.com; which source said, "Karmal's ethnic background is rather hazy, as was common among those born in or near Kabul, but most agree that he was Tajik or Qizilbash, Persian-speaking background." Another source is Rasanayagam, Angelo (2003) Afghanistan: A Modern History: Monarchy, despotism or democracy?: The problems of governance in the Muslim tradition I.B. Tauris, London, ISBN 1-86064-846-0, which says on page 47: "Karmal (a Ghilzai Pushtun, although it has been alleged by his detractors that his family was of Tajik origin)". --Bejnar (talk) 20:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

another source, Hussain, Rizwan (2005) Pakistan and the emergence of Islamic militancy in Afghanistan Ashgate, Aldershot, England, ISBN 0-7546-4434-0, says on page 95 "Babrak Karmal came from a mixed Pashtun-Tajik ancestry." --Bejnar (talk) 21:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Afghanland.com is NOT a reliable source. All the other three sources (including your sources) say he was atleast half Pashtun. BEIJINGBOY2 (talk) 21:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The point is not so much what exactly they say, the point is that reliable sources do not agree. Asserting that his father's family had Kashmire roots is not helpful in this environment. --Bejnar (talk) 01:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Muhammad Hassan Kakar is an ethnic Pashtun and he clearly states Karmal's ethnicity. Karmal and his brother Mahmoud Baryalai openly declared themselves Pashtun on TV(kakar). Just because they were Persianized, doesnt mean they were Tajik.--Anoshirawan 09:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan (talk • contribs)

Introduction POV

The introduction of this article POV. It is also excessively long, and digresses from the point. I am changing it to an NPOV introduction that sticks to the aim of such an introduction. CMarshall (talk) 12:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Death Date

I changed the date of his death from 3 December 1996 to 1 December 1996, referenced by a NY Times article. In searching the web, I found many articles that used the 3 December date. I am guessing that most of those based that on the Wikipedia article. Does anyone have a good reference for 3 December? Peter Chastain (talk) 14:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica (I got a one-week free trial, normally about $70/year) gives the date of his death as 3 December. I sent them feedback, based on the NY Times article, and in their reply they referenced a Washington Post article which says he died on 3 December. I will edit our article to reflect this uncertainty. Peter Chastain (talk) 12:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

High School

This article states that Karmal was an indifferent student in high school. Do we have any references for this? Also, the current Spanish version of this article states that he attended a German high school in the Nazi era ("durante la época de influencia nazi"). Karmal indeed was graduated in 1948 from Amani High School (aka Lycee Nejat), which, according to the English Wikipedia article, received support and staffing from Germany. In a brief web search, I could not find when he entered the school, nor any indication that there was Nazi activity there or that Karmal was influenced by it, which leads me to believe that the Nazi reference is irrelevant and should be removed from Spanish Wikipedia (or at least not added here). Does anyone have information about this? Peter Chastain (talk) 14:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Birth name confusion

In 'Early life' he is born as 'Sultan Hashem' but this is contradicted in the lead, which states 'Babrak Hashem'—can we resolve this? --Greenmaven (talk) 07:49, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Babrak Karmal/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Pyrotec (talk · contribs) 11:40, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I will review. Pyrotec (talk) 11:40, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Initial comments

After an initial reading, this article appears to be at or about GA-level based on its scope, references and citations. I'm now working my way through the article, starting at Early life and career, working my way to the end and then going back to do the Lead. This should take most of today. At this stage I will be highlighting mostly "problems", if any. Pyrotec (talk) 11:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

• Early life and career -

• Y Pyrotec (talk) - There seems to be some inconsistency over his last name. In the first (unnamed) subsection, he is called "Sultan Hashem" son of "Muhammad Hussein Hashem"; it then states in the same place that "Sultan Hussein, is a common Indian Muslim name". Also, in the same paragraph, his brother is named as "Mahmud Baryalay". In the following subsection, Communist politics, it states: ...changed his name from Sultan Hussein to Babrak Karmal".

Partially done, I can't do anything with his name being a common Indian name or that is brothers name is "Mahmud Baryalay"; Its according to the sources, and thats the only thing I can say on that subject. --TIAYN (talk) 09:18, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

• • Communist politics -

• Y Pyrotec (talk) - Done It's not clear what ".... No Khalqists were elected to the lower house of parliament; albeit, Amin was 50 votes short." is saying. It's presumably stating that Amin was only 50 votes short of a draw (or a win)?

• Sorry, I can't see any change here. Pyrotec (talk) 19:57, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• Done Refs 16 & 17 (also ref 21 ) are listed as Gladstone, Cary (2001). Afghanistan Revisited, but that is the title of the book and the author of the book. The references come from Chapter 5, whose title is Afghanistan: a country study and the editors are Blood, Baxter, Dupree, Gouttierre & Newell. (see {{cite book}}).

• I can't see any change here, its still quoting Gladstone: Blood, Baxter, Dupree, Gouttierre & Newell are not mentioned. Pyrotec (talk) 20:00, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• What I was suggesting was this:

but since the references are verifiable I'll let these go. Pyrotec (talk) 10:25, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

But I can't do that anylonger, all the references are referenced in SFN template format, which makes that impossible. --TIAYN (talk) 10:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• • The Daoud era -

• Looks OK.

• • Taraki–Amin rule -

• Y Pyrotec (talk) - Done There is a {{clarification needed}} tag in the first paragraph.
• Y Pyrotec (talk) - Done The third paragraph contains a direct quotation ""Today the torture machine of Amin has been smashed, his accomplices – the primitive executioners, usurpers and murderers of tens of thousand of our fellow countrymen – fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters, children and old people ..." which is unreferenced.

• Presidency -
  • Domestic policies-

• Done Refs 40, 41, 42, 43 & 46 are listed as Weiner, Myron; Banuazizi, Ali (1994). The Politics of Social Transformation in Afghanistan, Iran, and Pakistan, but that is the title of the book. The pages cited appear to be from Chapter 1: The Ephemeral Elite: The failure of Socialist Afghanistan, whose author is Anthony Arnold. (see {{cite book}}).

• See comments above about Refs 16 & 17. Pyrotec (talk) 10:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• Otherwise, looks OK.

• • Foreign policy -

...stopping for now. To be continued. Pyrotec (talk) 17:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

• Done Refs 59, 60 & 61 are listed as Leird, Robbin; Hoffmann, Erik (1986). Soviet foreign policy In a Changing World, but that is the title of the book. The pages cited appear to be from Chapter 18: The Soviet - Afghan War: the first four years, whose author is Jospeh J. Collins. (see {{cite book}}).

• See comments above about Refs 16 & 17. Pyrotec (talk) 10:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• Otherwise, looks OK.

• • Fall from power and succession -

• Looks OK.

• Later life and death -

• Looks OK.

• WP:Lead -

• Looks OK.

At this point, I'm putting the review On Hold. The corrective actions appear to be relatively minor. Pyrotec (talk) 18:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm finished. --TIAYN (talk) 12:30, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I must have edited out my changes somehow... Wow, ok --TIAYN (talk) 20:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

An informative article.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well cited and referenced.

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   All images, except File:Babrak Karmal afghan statesman.JPG which has been tagged for speedy deletion on 23 July 2012, are compliant

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

This is an informative and well referenced article, so I'm awarding it GA status. Congratulations on getting this article thorough GA. Please Note; there is one image in the information box that is tagged for speedy deletion, but the loss of this image (if it occurs) will not substantially impact on the article. Pyrotec (talk) 10:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Copyediting

Good morning,

I have undertaken the request on the GOCE page to copyedit this article. I intend to finish today, by evening EST, and will submit the overall completed edit for review. At this time, you may view version changes to the lead section and the section on early life and career. Thank you. TheFurorDivinus (talk) 16:40, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

@TheFurorDivinus: Excellent work! :) --TIAYN (talk) 08:30, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Babrak Karmal/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Avoid bolding. Also needs refs. Lampman 20:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 08:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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