Talk:Jewish holidays

Ethnic holidays (Mimouna, Seharane, Sigd)

Moved from my sandbox's talk page StevenJ81 (talk) 13:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Debresser (and others): I already have a sense how you feel about these. I don't completely disagree with you, either.

The complication is that Mimouna is really big enough, and is observed widely enough, and is famous enough, that it legitimately deserves mention here somewhere. And if you look at Talk:Jewish holidays, you'll see there is a nine-year-old request to include it. Whether it merited that inclusion then is a good question, but I think it legitimately does now. With respect to Mimouna, if I put it in the article and you then revert it, I would probably strongly object on the talk page.

So the problem is this: Without Mimouna, it's probably easy to leave them all three out. However, once you include Mimouna, how do you exclude the others? In particular, there is a lot of sensitivity around Beta Israel that as they are accepted as Jews, their customs need to be respected. So my sandbox provides what I think is a workable solution—one that is not excessively lengthy, but mentions everything without too much fuss. I propose to include it as a last section under Israeli holidays, because the Israeli government's recognition of them gives them some tie to notability.

If you would strongly prefer only including Mimouna, though, I can't really argue against that effectively. After all, while Mimouna is widely observed, Seharane and Sigd are really not (outside their core ethnic communities). If we went that way, I would probably prefer to slot Mimouna in as a subheading of Pesach. If you click where it says "[show]" just under the title "Jewish holidays" you'll see what I have in mind there.

I'd appreciate your feedback. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I won't disagree with you. There is one thing lacking in what you wrote, or actually - three things. What the days are about. What do people do on Mimouna, etc.? I know this is in the articles, but at least something minimal should be mentioned here as well. Debresser (talk) 22:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Good point. Will try to get at that, probably day after tomorrow. Thanks! StevenJ81 (talk) 22:48, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

End of moved section. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Beneath the section's heading Main articles: ... Seharane ... appears but there isn't a Seharane article though there is one in French: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seharane. Mcljlm (talk) 13:04, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Update 16:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

At this point, I have completed everything that has been on my to-do list on this article, and I think it is in pretty decent shape. Naturally, it will stay on my watchlist, but I'm going to walk away for a little while and let it sit quietly, and see what others may offer.

At a point where this goes up for WP:GA status, there are some improvements that still need doing. In particular, there are several pieces of this that could stand more/better references. In some cases they feel to me like WP:BLUE issues. This is especially true, for example, in the section on Shabbat. But the truth is that many uninvolved readers are not likely to see them that way, and we should probably do a little better. There may be other places where we might want to tweak the wording of statements or claims.

All that is best left for after the holidays, though, I think. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

A huge "thumbs up" for you, StevenJ81. Debresser (talk) 17:54, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

<embarrassed grin> StevenJ81 (talk) 18:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

discussion of pikuach nefesh

@StevenJ81: At the end of the section on "work" we have

Saving a life. Shabbat and holiday work restrictions are always put aside in cases of pikuach nefesh, which is saving a human life. At the most fundamental level, if there is any possibility whatsoever that action must be taken to save a life, Shabbat restrictions are violated immediately, and without reservation.

I feel uncomfortable with the wording "Shabbat restrictions are violated". Wouldn't "suspended" or "superseded" be a better word here? It's not as if the Law tells us to violate the Law. Rather, it tells us "saving a life is more important than observing Shabbat".

Oh, by the way, StevenJ81: great work! --Thnidu (talk) 02:51, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

This remind the discussion whether shabbat hudcha or hutra in the case of pikuach nefesh, that is to say, whether the shabbat laws are in place but we push them aside, or if the laws are completely removed. In any case, I agree with the proposal to use another word, probably I'd prefer "superseded". Debresser (talk) 11:15, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

[Not really off Wikibreak, but still ...] Fair point. I think the most accurate way to say this without having to actually answer the discussion @Debresser brings up is to say:

At the most fundamental level, if there is any possibility whatsoever that some action must be taken to save a life, that action is taken immediately and without reservation, notwithstanding Shabbat restrictions.

I think this finesses the point of whether they are "pushed aside" or removed. If you two are ok with that language, someone please go ahead and edit it.

If you'd rather just leave it as it is, replacing violated with superseded, I'm ok with that, too.

חג שמח! StevenJ81 (talk) 18:37, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and @Thnidu: Thank you for the compliment!

When I return from Wikibreak, I need to go back and fix Shemini Atzeret again. I got it promoted to GA, then had a couple of GA experts with little understanding of classical halachic literature tear it back apart. So I need to go back and try to put all the pieces back together again. I'm no longer aiming for GA—too frustrating—just for a cogent and coherent article. Any help you gentlemen can provide, either now or when I come back, would be appreciated. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:43, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Title of article

I wish to call your attention to the fact that the title of this article, "Jewish holidays," is wrongly translated in the page's title as "Yom Tov" / "Yamim Tovim." It is a misnomer, and should have rather been translated as " Chagim Yehudim " (Heb. חגים יהודיים). This is because, in classical Hebrew (or in rabbinic Hebrew), the word "Tom Tov" has a limited meaning, and excludes some Jewish holidays, such as Purim, Hanukkah and Yom Kippur.Davidbena (talk) 20:43, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

What David is saying is true. There is a distinction between jewish holidays (chagim) and yamim tovim, which include another set of restrictions. This is the first thing someone reads on the article, and it is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maddogpc (talk • contribs) 05:09, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

In Israel I have also seen the translation "Mo'adei Israel" or "Chagei Israel". I think that is better than "Chagim Yehudim", which isn't an official term. Compare the Hebrew Wikipedia article "חגי ישראל ומועדיו". Debresser (talk) 09:08, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

"Jewish holidays" is the right name in English (or at least "Jewish holidays and commemorations"). § Terminology used to describe Jewish holidays goes through the terminology issue. So is it better not to put anything in the lead? If we're going to put something in the lead, I'm going to vote for מועדי ישראל, because we start with Shabbat. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:00, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

That section actually makes the case that "Chagim" is a more universal term than "Yamim Tovim". Debresser (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

It does, and it is. I actually didn't add that translation in; it was one of the few things that existed before I reworked the page, and I just left it alone. I would argue that moed is most general (and can include Shabbat and fasts), chagim next, and yom tov last. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:15, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Section links

@StevenJ81: When readers click on a wikilink, they expect it to take them to the article on the linked topic, if such an article exists. That is the way the vast majority of wikilinks on Wikipedia work. So, for example, if the text "Rosh Hashanah" is linked, the link normally leads to the article Rosh Hashanah. The links in this article that work differently are confusing and disorienting, and I see no benefit to them. I tried to fix that with these edits, but you reverted them. Could you please explain why?

To be clear, I'm not objecting to the use of section links altogether. There are some section links in this article that I think are appropriate. The problem is when a link that looks like it should go to Rosh Hashanah instead goes to Jewish holidays#Rosh Hashanah, for example. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:34, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

@Mr. Granger: I certainly take your point. However, this article is relatively unusual, in that it contains material summaries on each of the holidays. It's more than a list article, yet is not a fully detailed article on any one particular holiday. My assumption in building the article this way—and it was done intentionally—was that people might or might not be looking for full-blown articles on particular holidays. Instead, they might equally be looking to see how the individual holiday fits into the overall scheme of holidays. Therefore these links go to sections, which in turn all have links to the full article on the linked topic. Someone wanting to go forward to the full article has to click twice instead of once—not a great strain—while someone wishing to stay in the general article can easily navigate around.

Additionally, the article has generally been stable for a while. So I'd like to give others who watch this page an opportunity to comment. If they prefer your approach I'll be more than happy to go along. But I'd like to leave it open for discussion for a few days first, if you don't mind. Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:47, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I do see your point. I'll keep this page on my watchlist, and we can see if anyone else weighs in. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:54, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

a calendar widget would be great in this article

A calendar widget would be great in this article - one that is automatically updating (per month) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Rosenberger (talk • contribs) 22:06, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

What are you thinking of? A widget that would update on each Rosh Hodesh showing the holidays for that month? StevenJ81 (talk) 15:11, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

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Checked. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Yom Ha-Aliyah (and other odds and ends)

@Debresser: Of course it was unsourced; I said as much. Part of the issue is that there just is not much evidence for a religious component to it right now. That makes its inclusion here a little dicey, and of course finding sources to prove a non-event is always a challenge. At the same time, the date does have religious significance, and that gives some justification to its inclusion. So what if I propose the following: Add it back, tag it as "citation needed", and see if that stimulates someone who knows more about it than we do to add a reference. (I think we've been pretty good about keeping this article sourced, but I'm willing to do this over a short stretch—maybe 2–4 weeks—to see if we can get some help.)

At the same time, I think I'll see if I can rescue or replace some of the sources outlined just above.

I hope you enjoyed yom tov. Shabbat Shalom. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:08, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Okay. No problems here.

I did, thank you. How was your yom tov? Apart from being twice as long as mine, I mean. :) Debresser (talk) 14:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I read Megillat Rut twice, and Yetziv Pitgam (hard!) twice. (Youth minyan wasn't adequately prepared. Sigh.) (I guess Yetziv Pitgam disappears in Israel, doesn't it?) I read both the megillah and the haftarah out of a Tanach that my wife and I donated to the shul on the occasion of the birth of my son 25 years ago—and the second day of Yom Tov was the 25th anniversary of his Brit Milah, which was the last time I actually read that haftarah in shul. So that was pretty cool. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:49, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

A festival loaden with symbolism. :) I never heard of Yetziv Pitgam, and since I lived outside Israel too for many years, that probably means it is not Chabad custom to read it. Debresser (talk) 16:13, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

It may well not be a Chabad custom. See Yetziv Pisgam and this article at YU Torah. Just by happenstance, because I wasn't looking for it, the young woman who wrote the YU Torah piece (or delivered it as a talk, I'm not sure) is from my hometown and a family friend. She's a dead brilliant Torah scholar. The piyyut is in Aramaic, and is quite difficult. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:22, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Israeli Days of Remembrance and Jabotinsky & Herzl Days

After comparing Public holidays in Israel and Jewish holidays to the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays, there are some noted differences. Specifically, "Victory Day over Nazi Germany" and "Memorial day for Yitzhak Rabin", is on Public holidays in Israel, but not on Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays. Furthermore, "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day" is not on Public holidays in Israel. I propose that both the pages Public holidays in Israel and Jewish holidays and the template Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays must be identical for factual consistency.

So the question becomes, are "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day", "Memorial day for Yitzhak Rabin", and "Victory Day over Nazi Germany" truly Israeli holidays? The Knesset passing a law to note important date or personage happens from time to time, although I do not believe in most of these cases, such days are meant to be national holidays, just "observances".

As well, there are a few Knesset legislated days of remembrance (observances) absent from all, such as Herzl Day (http://knesset.gov.il/vip/herzl/eng/Herz_Law_eng.html) and Jabotinsky Day (http://knesset.gov.il/vip/jabotinsky/eng/law_eng.html)

In conclusion, all of these Israeli "days of remembrance" or "days of observance", I do not believe were created by the Knesset to rise to the level of Israel's actual National Holidays akin to Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom HaShoah, Yom HaAliyah and Yom Yerushaliym. Thus, although I appreciate their value, "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day" etc... should not be on the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays, nor should they be on Jewish holidays and Public holidays in Israel.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alanadrubin (talk • contribs) 7:47, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• Solved I believe by adding to the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays "Days marked by the Knesset of the State of Israel", and shifting "Mizrahi Expulsion", "Herzl Day" and "Jabotinsky Day" there. :::— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alanadrubin (talk • contribs) 15:29, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• That's a potential solution. But I've reverted for the time being, pending a further discussion here. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:30, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• Looking forward to the addition of "Days marked by the Knesset of the State of Israel" to the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays Alanadrubin (talk) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• You raise an interesting point, Alana. When people first added Yom Ha'Aliyah and Mizrahi Expulsion Day to the Jewish holidays article, I didn't quite like how it worked, and rewrote things a little bit to try to make them fit a little better.

Part of this touches on an issue that has been discussed here frequently, and part of it is starting to expand into a little bit of new territory. Let me explain:

• A point that used to recur here from time to time was whether or not to completely separate "Jewish holidays" from "Israeli holidays", both in the article and in the template. Over time, a consensus evolved, albeit with some participants more enthusiastic than others—that they should stay together. The reasoning, in brief, was this:

(a) The major Jewish holidays are also Israeli public holidays, and

(b) large parts of the Jewish world consider the earlier holidays established by Israel—i.e., Yom Ha'Atzma'ut and its associated Yom HaZikaron, Yom HaShoah and Yom Yerushalayim—to have accreted a greater or lesser religious component to them, including to Jews outside the State of Israel. Accordingly, they have become, to some extent, "Jewish holidays" alongside the others. To the extent that we limit the discussion to those four days, I don't think that consensus has changed much.

• Yom HaAliyah and Mizrahi Expulsion Day become more problematic, from the point of view of the article Jewish holidays:

• The dates of Yom HaAliyah were selected with definite religious forethought—10 Nisan, the day of Joshua's aliyah, and 7 Heshvan, during the week of Parashat Lekh Lekha. And Aliyah is certainly a core Jewish religious value, at least traditionally. (I state it that way to avoid an involved discussion of that here, which would not be appropriate.) Yet there is no evidence so far that the day itself has taken on any religious significance whatsoever. (If someone has such evidence, that could change my opinion on this one.

• Yom HaAliyah is an actual Israeli National Holiday on the level of Yom Yerushalayim and Yom HaAtzmaut etc... As for the religiosity of Yom HaAliyah, it's context is fully based in the Torah/Tanach/Bible, and on God's commandments to both Abraham and Joshua, as well as God's prophetic blessing in the Torah to return the Jews to the Land of Israel from the "four corners of the world", also known as the Gathering of Israel or "in-gathering of the exiles". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alanadrubin (talk • contribs) 15:29, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• I accept that up to a point. And you really don't have to sell the religious underpinnings of the day to me, Alana. (Look at my user page.) Still, there are a couple of differences here. First, while the concept of Aliyah has religious underpinnings, I've seen no evidence of any special religious observance on Yom Ha'Aliyah (yet), such as one sees for the first four days. Second, I've seen no evidence that there is any interest in it—especially religious interest—outside of Israel. So it's a still very much a borderline case. Look, it's a pretty new day, and may evolve to that point; we'll see. At this point, there would have to be consensus to remove it, so let's see if that happens. (I'm on the fence.) I'll add: I removed the other Knesset days here because we began the discussion before those were added, and that makes the status quo ante to leave them out for now. If consensus evolves to add them then we will do that. (I don't favor that; see the rest of my reasoning elsewhere.) StevenJ81 (talk) 16:42, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• My opinion is that as long as Yom HaShoah, Yom Yerushalyim, Yom HaAliyah, and Yom HaZikaron have no liturgical aspects to them during a Synagogue service, beyond possibly being references in a rabbi's sermon, and they do not have any observances that involve actual halachic aspects, they do not rise to the level of a Jewish holiday, beyond being Israeli National Holidays. I personally am happy to consider all five Israeli National Holidays created by the Knesset beyond the traditional Jewish holidays, as "Jewish holidays" as well for the purpose of Jewish holidays if they are explained as Israeli national modern inventions. Unlike those four, I think many religious Jews would agree that since there is a vibrant good faith debate on whether to say the Hallel prayer, and shave, on Yom HaAtzmaut, it may be worthy of transcending Yom HaShoah, Yom Yerushalyim, Yom HaAliyah, and Yom HaZikaron to become an actual holiday within Judaism. Alanadrubin (talk) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• For the record, in some circles it's actually less controversial to say Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim than on Yom Ha'Atzma'ut. In the appropriate circles in both Israel and the Diaspora substantial changes are made to the liturgy on Yom Yerushalayim, too. Yom HaZikaron and Yom HaShoah have small liturgical references (memorial prayers, mostly), but are also widely observed outside of Israel in some way or another. So I don't even have an issue with those three. I'm still struggling with Yom HaAliyah. But, as you say, if it's a holiday, while the others aren't, I could probably be convinced. Let's give this a few more days; there are a couple of other people out there who may weigh in. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:47, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

• Mizrahi Expulsion Day is also pretty much secular so far, as far as I can tell. It has the potential to become (to some extent) a Mizrahi counterpart to Yom HaShoah, and could become more of a religious observance. But it's new, and it hasn't, yet.

• Mizrahi Expulsion Day is on the level of Jabotinsky Day and Herzl Day. They are all merely days of note marked by the Knesset. Thus should not be included in any listing of Jewish holidays, but should remain on Public holidays in Israel if referenced properly. Alanadrubin (talk) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• And then there are the individual remembrance days, for Rabin, Herzl, Jabotinsky, and so forth. I personally see those as no more than yahrzeits of a more-public-than-usual character, but there is plenty of history to suggest that religiously, yahrzeits are something different from holidays. (Hassidim may not entirely agree with that, and the yahrzeit of Moses may be a slight exception to that rule.) If so, from a religious perspective, they probably don't belong here. Yet, from the point of view of Israel as a nation, I'm not sure they would be any less appropriate than, say, Washington's Birthday or Lincoln's Birthday in the US.

• The US Congress has had many votes creating days marked as noteworthy, but they are not considered US National Holidays. Beyond the traditional religious Jewish holidays, Israel's Knesset has only created five to date, Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom Yerushalayim, Yom HaShoah, and most recently, Yom HaAliyah. Alanadrubin (talk) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

So the new ground that we are starting to cover is this: To what extent do days with arguable or no unusual religious significance belong in this article. And if they don't, can the template, or Public holidays in Israel, be different? Or do the three need to be the same?

• I would argue that they can and should be different. Whether I would prefer this to be true or not, there are aspects to the State of Israel that are secular. It seems to me that some of these days are really secular, and don't really belong in this article—yet probably do belong in the article about public holidays in Israel. Similarly, there probably needs to be a second navigation template covering Israeli holidays. But differently from the way a second template was proposed in the past, I will suggest an approach in which the two templates, and to some extent the two articles, overlap to a notable extent. Here's my proposal:

1. As things stand now, the only days "created" by the State of Israel that belong in this article are Yom Ha'Atzma'ut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom Yerushalayim, and Yom HaShoah. Others, at present, should only be included in the article Public holidays in Israel. If evidence starts to appear that other days are starting to take on a notable religious component, we can revisit that on an item-by-basis.
   • As noted above, Yom HaAliyah is the fifth holiday created by the State of Israel, and thus wherever Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom Yerushalayim, and Yom HaShoah appear, Yom HaAliyah should as well. All other "days" created by the Knesset are merely days marked as noteworthy. Alanadrubin (talk) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
2. The template "Jewish and Israeli holidays" similarly includes only those four. But there is a link to a navigation template for Israeli holidays as well.
3. The article on public holidays in Israel properly includes any day widely observed in Israel, at least consistent with the practice of other "Public holidays in ..." pages.
4. The new template "Israeli public holidays" would include any Israeli public day listed on that page, which includes many, but not all of the days mentioned here. It would be linked to the original navigation template, too.
   • I very much like the idea of a new template called "Israeli public holidays", but would still like to see Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom HaAliyah, Yom Yerushalayim, and Yom HaShoah appear on the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays under the proper heading. Alanadrubin (talk) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Those are my thoughts. Others' are welcome. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:37, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Specific details about Herzl Day and Jabotinsky Day from Knesset legislation

— Provided by Alanadrubin (talk • contribs) 7:47, 9 June 2017 (UTC) Herzl Day http://knesset.gov.il/vip/herzl/eng/Herz_Law_eng.html Herzl Day shall be held once a year, on Iyar 10, the birthday of Binyamin Zeev Herzl. On this day - (1) A state memorial service shall be held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem; (2) In IDF camps and in the schools time shall be devoted to learning about the achievements and Zionist vision of Binyamin Zeev Herzl; (3) A symposium shall be held in Jerusalem in memory of Binyamin Zeev Herzl. The symposium shall be organized by the Public Council. At the symposium issues from the world of Zionism and in the spirit of the vision of Binyamin Zeev Herzl shall be discussed. (b) The Knesset shall hold a special debate to mark Herzl Day on its exact date, or a date close to it. (c) Should Iyar 10 fall on a Sabbath, Herzl Day shall be held on the following Sunday. Jabotinsky Day http://knesset.gov.il/vip/jabotinsky/eng/law_eng.html Jabotinsky Day shall be held once a year, on Tammuz 29, the day of Ze'ev Jabotinsky's death. On this day - (1) A state memorial service shall be held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem; (2) In IDF camps and in the schools time shall be devoted to learning about the achievements and Zionist vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky; (3) A symposium shall be held in Jerusalem in memory of Ze'ev Jabotinsky. The symposium shall be organized by the Public Council. At the symposium, issues from the world of Zionism and in the spirit of the vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky shall be discussed. (b) The Knesset shall hold a special debate to mark Jabotinsky Day on its exact date, or a date close to it. (c) Should Tammuz 29 fall on a Sabbath, Jabotinsky Day shall be held on the following Sunday. 11. Once per year, on the day of Tevet 12, school programs will be dedicated to Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s achievements and Zionist vision.

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The link modification was accurate. However, as it was an external link to a list of holiday dates from several years ago, I deleted it as unnecessary. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Founding myth

@79.177.85.13: your edit does not reflect the academic consensus. Passover is a celebration of the Exodus, the founding myth of the Israelites' slavery, not a celebration of the Israelites' slavery. I'm not trying to address the topic in this article, I just want to add 6 words, "the Exodus, the founding myth of"... to accurately represent the academic consensus. "The Exodus" is linked so people can read about it on the Exodus page. Fajkfnjsak (talk) 16:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I more or less agree with the IP editor, that this is not the right place for such details. Especially since "Exodus" is linked, and this information is available there. Debresser (talk) 22:14, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I meant that "The Exodus" is linked in the 6 words that I added and that the IP editor removed. "Exodus" is not currently mentioned at all. At the least the Exodus should be mentioned and linked. Fajkfnjsak (talk) 02:45, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I hope this edit resolves all the issues, to both your and my content. 15:01, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

The academic consensus is clear that the Exodus is a myth, regardless of who has faith in it. You wrote that those who celebrate it do not consider it a myth, we do not know that, but I would be interested to see a source saying that if you have one.

I literally just added 2 words, "myth of". Do you have a reason to exclude these 2 words that I provided a source for? Some people may not have faith in the academic consensus is not a valid reason to exclude it. Fajkfnjsak (talk) 01:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Fajkfnjsak: It is unnecessary to add "myth" to every page or mention of the Exodus. That is undue and not how Wikipedia handles religions or religious holidays. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi, weird that you're following me around wikipedia, but anyways now that you're here- Clearly this is within the confines of WP:UNDUE as there is overwhelming academic consensus that the Exodus is a myth. I linked a source and can add more if you'd like. It is literally a 1 word addition. Fajkfnjsak (talk) 02:07, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Many things are mythical, but mentioning that fact every time an event is named is unnecessary. Why do you feel this is so important to add the term "myth" to mentions of Exodus? There is are reasons why the Wikipedia article is titled The Exodus and you had to pipe link your addition. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 02:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

what is a pipe link?

It's not like I'm trying to address it anywhere but the actual Exodus page. I just want it referred to as it is, with 1 word. The Exodus myth, as opposed to just The Exodus. The academic consensus is clear anyways, so why avoid that one word? Fajkfnjsak (talk) 02:46, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

A pipe link is when you change the name of a Wikipedia link. The vast majority of academic sources do not refer to Exodus as "the Exodus myth", including the source that you provided. When appropriate, they mention or discuss its historicity, as does Wikipedia. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 02:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I see, thanks. Normal link is fine with me. I am just saying that it is consensus that it is a myth. Why avoid 1 word? There is consensus, and its just 1 word. Fajkfnjsak (talk) 03:57, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The academic consensus is against calling it "the Exodus myth". Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 04:03, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The academic consensus is clear in that it is a myth. It is not "against calling it The Exodus myth". The academic sources call it a myth. The question is how do we write this wikipedia article. The 1 word, myth, accurately labels it in accordance with what the academic consensus says it is. Why do you want so badly to remove 1 word? To not describe what it is according to academic consensus? Fajkfnjsak (talk) 04:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

What sources use your suggested term? Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 04:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

You mean myth? - The source that I posted that is still on the page, for starters. Fajkfnjsak (talk) 04:21, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

It does not use the term "the Exodus myth" and it does not connect Exodus being a myth to the Passover holiday. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 04:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

It clearly says its a myth. Since "its" means the Exodus, this is where I got "the Exodus myth". But if you prefer it, I am fine with "the Exodus, the founding myth..." which if you look at the edit history for the page is what I originally posted before the IP editor reverted it.

As far as the connection to Passover, the article spoke about the Exodus, but without mentioning the name, before I edited it. Fajkfnjsak (talk) 04:35, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Your proposed change is undue and unnecessary. The source you added doesn't even mention Passover. Wallyfromdilbert (talk) 04:41, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

At the least it's clearly not undue. There is clear overwhelming academic consensus for it being a myth. As far as unnecessary, its literally 1 word. and it reflects academic consensus. I do not see why you want so badly to avoid that 1 word? Fajkfnjsak (talk) 04:44, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

And I do not see why you want to add it so badly. I gave you good reasons not to have it: 1. it is present in the linked article The Exodus 2. that article is not called the Exodus myth for a reason. 3. in the sentence "Passover commemorates the Exodus, the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt." the word myth is out of place, as those who "commemorate" it do not see it as a myth. I think your proposed change is WP:POINTY, and am not charmed by it at all. Debresser (talk) 08:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Fajkfnjsak: Please understand that the descriptions of holidays here are brief and intentionally incomplete; they are intended to show how each individual holiday fits into the overall scheme of holidays in Judaism. They are not supposed to provide exhaustive description of each holiday; note that each and every holiday's individual page is individually linked here. Emphasizing "myth" on this page is, as @Debresser notes, simply POINTY; it is no more appropriate here than describing all of Judaism (or Christianity or any other religion) as a "myth" on this page. I'd say that one thing you could change, if this section is bothering you that much, is that you can change the copy in the next line from "...in commemoration of the fact that..." to "...in commemoration of the narrative stating that..." But this page is not the page to debate the "myth"-ness of this topic. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:05, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

My response to Debresser is the exact same as last time. Faith does not eliminate academic consensus. We do not know that those who commemorate it do not view it as myth. Feel free to provide source to the contrary. Not trying to charm you. Trying to edit wikipedia to reflect academic consensus.

Steven - "exhaustive description"? "debate the myth-ness"? I wanted 1 word. About something that is not debated in academic circles at all.

However since you both dislike "the Exodus myth" as it clearly feels like a change to the title of the Exodus to you, how about this:

"the Exodus, the founding myth of the Israelites' liberation from slavery in Egypt ..." This will make clear the Exodus is the name, and the founding myth is just the academic consensus. Thoughts?

And I will make that edit, thanks for pointing that out Steven. Fajkfnjsak (talk) 22:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

As to "the Exodus, the founding myth...": No. Repeat: No. Please read my previous post. That edit would not be POINTY or UNDUE everywhere on Wikipedia; as far as it goes, when I mouse over "the Exodus here", that very phrase appears in the pop-up box. But it is POINTY and UNDUE here.

• Again: this page is not about the Exodus. The only reason we even need to go so far as to describe the Exodus on this page as related to the liberation from slavery is that the observances of the holiday are closely tied into that point. But whether it is a founding myth or not is entirely irrelevant to what this page is trying to accomplish, namely: that Passover is one of the Jewish holidays, and that the distinguishing factor is that its observance is closely tied to the story of the liberation from slavery. That's it. The nature of the story doesn't matter here. The academic consensus doesn't even matter here, because this page is not about the Exodus.
• We're not particularly arguing the point as to whether there is academic consensus. We're mostly trying to tell you that for the purpose of the description here, it adds nothing, potentially distracts from the rest of the description, and is not useful.
• You clearly have an agenda; that much is obvious from your edits at Passover, The Exodus, Resurrection of Jesus, and others. You have been successful at placing your point about this being a founding myth in the lede of both of the first two articles. I think you ought to take that and be happy with it.

To be sure, we appreciate your taking this up on the talk page once there were objections. The civility is to be commended, especially given how uncivil so much of the world is these days. Still, there is no consensus for this type of change on this page. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Well I don't agree with you about the myth edit but you're right in that there is no consensus for the edit.

Can I change it to how you just worded it?

"...is closely tied to the story of the liberation from slavery..."

ie - can I write "the Exodus, the story of the liberation..." Fajkfnjsak (talk) 03:42, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I think it is perfect as it is now. Debresser (talk) 14:33, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Me, too. Just move on. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:47, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

@StevenJ81: - You suggest this very edit earlier with a different sentence, you describe the Exodus this way for a clear reason, and now you do not want the edit on this other sentence. Why? Fajkfnjsak (talk) 03:56, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

WP:DEADHORSE. Debresser (talk) 15:56, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

This sentence is clearly misleading as to what the Exodus is:
"Passover commemorates the Exodus, the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt.[45][46]"
the Exodus is not the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt
it is a myth, biblical narrative, narrative, story, etc
we need to pick one so that we do not imply that it is a historical narrative
How about this: "Passover commemorates the Exodus, the biblical narrative about the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt.[45][46]"
Fajkfnjsak (talk) 22:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Does anyone else have a comment here? Fajkfnjsak has been indeffed, and I would propose to close this discussion. StevenJ81 (talk) 01:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

?? Day of the Lamb ??

In Exodus 12:3 God gives a command to Moses saying, "Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month [the first month] every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household." It is my understanding that this was celebrated up to the destruction of the Second Temple. What is the history of this holiday? What is the correct name for this holiday? Why did it cease? And, why is it not celebrated today? And why is it not even mentioned on this page? 50.206.176.154 (talk) 17:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

External links

I deleted the Jewish Gift Place link. What appeared in the Section as "2016-2017 Jewish Calendar" and led to Hebrew Calendar/Jewish Calendar ~ 5780 (2019-20) is superfluous in view of the other links. Mcljlm (talk) 01:33, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I greatly dislike the organization of this article

I find that in this article, there is entirely too much detail presented to the reader before the article lists the holidays.

The subject of the article is the Jewish holidays. LIST THEM FIRST. Then get to the details. 2601:200:C000:1A0:9173:441:7651:4179 (talk) 16:40, 19 April 2022 (UTC)