Talk:Julian Jaynes

Content Migration 12/20

Migrating the "theory" content from "Julian Jaynes" page to "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" as this has been suggested by others and is the standard across Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DRTZ212 (talk • contribs) 02:31, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

External links modified

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Controversy

I didn't make any changes to the article but I wanted to point out that the sentence in bold below is an unsourced opinion and not a fact so it doesn't belong in the article. If someone holds the opinion that something "is not now considered to be biologically probable" then they have a name or names or a source of some kind, I was under the impression that with Wikipedia articles shouldn't have completely unsourced claims or opinions.

Jaynes was a polymath genius, his book and theory is written in a way that some parts of it can be true without the entire theory being correct on every point. Even if the exact neurological process doesn't involve the right temporal cortex, for example, it doesn't mean the entire theory is wrong. Darwin was wrong on some details of his theories, but that doesn't mean that evolution isn't real.

In general, Jaynes is respected as a psychologist and a historian of psychology. The views expressed in The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind employ a radical neuroscientific hypothesis that was based on research novel at the time, and which is not now considered to be biologically probable.[citation needed] However, the more general idea of a "divided self" has found support from psychological and neurological studies, and many of the historical arguments made in the book remain intriguing, if not proven.[23] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akechi77 (talk • contribs) 23:34, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

The Theories

This article is mainly a bio. The theories need attention, but obviously should be expanded in other places in Wiki. Meanwhile, I intend to delete the current 2nd paragraph about "meta-consciousness" and "meta-awareness"... Jaynes tells us on chapter 1, page 1 that "consciousness of consciousness" is not what consciousness is... B.Sirota (talk) 17:11, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

As of 11/19, I hope the Theories section here in the bio will help. It still needs improvement, but not to be overdone. The 'Bicameralism' article is currently the only option to carry the bulk of 'J-con' and 'Bicamerality' and 'Vestiges'. B.Sirota (talk) 16:12, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality

I have not read anything written by Jaynes, but it seems that both this article and the one on bicameralism suffer from the same problems: the articles are mostly about The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind and seem to be biased. The reception section only talks about positive reception, and the criticism just talks about how the critics are wrong or have failed to understand his theory, with every critic being followed by some kind of explanation on why it is wrong. I am not from the field, but his idea seem to be far from the mainstream in psychology and this should be made clear in both articles. Even more, the sentence 'Rejection, of course, is not refutation' is completely absurd in the article, as this is an article an not a debate: if his work is rejected by the scientific community, this should be mentioned and not discussed. Vms42 (talk) 05:03, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I think I can agree with you, partially, but not fully because I don't fully understand your POV complaints: editorial 'bias' might be a problem; but is a discussion of Jaynes's book really a problem in this article? (1) This biographical article would be pointless without some discussion of the book, although the book deserves a complete article to itself (the Bicameralism article is totally inadequate). I think the article makes very clear that different, even contradictory opinions exist about Jaynes's ideas. Concerning POV and balance, that should be enough. If you have evidence that his work is refuted, i.e. that his ideas have been proven false, I'd be happy to hear about it. Otherwise, I think POV is resolved.

(2) The sentence {'Rejection, of course, is not refutation'}, which you say is "absurd" (and have deleted), is perhaps unnecessary, although I think it states a simple truth that may not occur to every reader, and it follows from the direct quotation that preceded it. It is not an opinion about the quoted critic, nor an editor's correction of factual error in the quoted criticism. The direct quotation from that source is not an argument against anything Jaynes wrote, but is an argument that biases will lead people to 'accept' or 'reject' Jaynes's arguments. Even so, I don't protest your deletion if that satisfies your POV complaint.

(3) Perhaps biases have indeed had more influence than people think. There are notable sources who discuss the reaction to Jaynes and the debate about his ideas as an important topic in itself, including the assumption that Jaynes has somewhere, somehow been refuted, and the claim by his 'supporters' that his 'detractors' often make mistakes. So perhaps the editing problem is how to mention this "controversy" without it sounding like POV bias. Can we delete the POV? B.Sirota (talk) 13:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I have the same impression in relation to the criticism section that is more about refuting criticism than presenting it... —PaleoNeonate – 05:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Move to The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind?

When a person is primarily known for one of their works, usually the redirect is towards that work. It's awkward that it's the other way around here. Almost the entirety of the article is about the book. As examples: The ==Jayne's Theory== section starts "In his book[...]", the beginning to ==Reception and influence== is "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, and the entirety of ==Controversy and criticism== is about the book. (Similarly, Bicameralism (psychology) could be merged in; it too is almost entirely about the book).

I don't want to be too bold here (it's a big change). Does anyone have any thoughts or objections? Xavexgoem (talk) 07:45, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

-- I completely agree with you, and I am implementing this change. DRTZ212 (talk) 05:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Edits by 216.106.53.90, 20Feb

‎ On 20 Feb./21, an editor wrote that Jaynes's four hypotheses are "mutually exclusive". If this editor knows what the phrase means, then either the edit is vandalism, or an explicit source should be cited and attributed as someone else's opinion. It certainly is not what Jaynes wrote. This editor's other changes are similarly unhelpful or just confusing, in my opinion. I am ready to revert most of the edits, unless someone offers a good reason not to. B.Sirota (talk) 06:36, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Category: American Zoologists?

Why is Jaynes in this category? The article mentions exactly nothing about any work he did in that field. IAmNitpicking (talk) 02:02, 1 January 2022 (UTC)