Wikidata:Property proposal/Deutsche Biographie person ID
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Deutsche Biographie person ID
[edit]Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Authority control
Not done
Motivation
Major German project see de:Deutsche Biographie, operated by Historische Kommission bei der Bayerischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, can help to identify humans in WD. 92.230.132.107 10:38, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion
Oppose This is GND ID (P227) (see Q40904#P227). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- Since when is that a reason to reject a property? Sächsische Biografie (Property:P1710) has it too. @Jonathan Groß, Conny, TMg:, is SäBi ID different here? Property:P5115 (Directory of Open Access Journals ID) was created too, despite it is an ISSN (Property:P236). 92.230.132.107 14:50, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, but that was after a long discussion that still left some doubts there should be a better way. third-party formatter URL (P3303) was designed for this - so I guess the question here is whether there's a similar issue that this dataset covers only a subset of what's in the full GND identifiers list (which I'm guessing is the case). ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Pigsonthewing, ArthurPSmith: The GND on the site could differ from the GND offered on the official GND site. If a record in the GND register is changed then GND users may still have other values. There could also be errors due to processing, the Dt.-Biographie could have a value not even found in the GND register. 92.230.132.107 23:10, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, but that was after a long discussion that still left some doubts there should be a better way. third-party formatter URL (P3303) was designed for this - so I guess the question here is whether there's a similar issue that this dataset covers only a subset of what's in the full GND identifiers list (which I'm guessing is the case). ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- It seems that this proposal is now conflating two identifier schemes, GND and SFZ. Also note that the site offers a third type of ID for Ernst Johann von Biron (Q57768); pnd118685325. And I'm doubly opposed given the Haxthausen (Q1591783) example: an ID exists, but for some reason we are told "Do not add"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:21, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
- User:Pigsonthewing, Kolja21 wanted to mix SFZ and GND, but the proposal was made related to the GND. There are only two types of IDs, the SFZ-IDs and the GND-IDs. Regarding Haxthausen, the Q-item you mentioned can be linked via GND https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/gnd189540648.html , but "Haxthausen, Freiherren von" is currently only linkable via SFZ (https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/sfz50814001.html#indexcontent) and no item in WD seems to exist. The example in the proposal has been fixed. 2.245.11.89 18:02, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Since when is that a reason to reject a property? Sächsische Biografie (Property:P1710) has it too. @Jonathan Groß, Conny, TMg:, is SäBi ID different here? Property:P5115 (Directory of Open Access Journals ID) was created too, despite it is an ISSN (Property:P236). 92.230.132.107 14:50, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Support David (talk) 15:24, 27 June 2018 (UTC)- ADB and NDB articles should almost all have a GND. 92.230.132.107 23:25, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- support withdrawn --Kolja21 (talk) 00:55, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- ADB and NDB articles should almost all have a GND. 92.230.132.107 23:25, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Comment There is a difference between all GNDs that they have in the database and those they offer own information for. The following official but a bit outdated beacon files offer ~140 000 GNDs.
- http://www.historische-kommission-muenchen-editionen.de/beacon_adb.txt / 25782 // https://tools.wmflabs.org/mix-n-match/?#/catalog/1042 Deutsche Biographie ADB
- http://www.historische-kommission-muenchen-editionen.de/beacon_ndb.txt / 22217 // https://tools.wmflabs.org/mix-n-match/?#/catalog/1041 Deutsche Biographie NDB
- http://www.historische-kommission-muenchen-editionen.de/beacon_db_register.txt / 99192
- These, or the catalogs, can be used for first filling. Later one can mark with qualifiers what is in ADB/NDB or elsewhere. 92.230.132.107 23:10, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- Comment this seems to be a duplicate of another proposal at Wikidata:Property_proposal/Deutsche_Biographie_Identifikator.
--- Jura 04:52, 28 June 2018 (UTC)- That gave an example with SFZ, not with GND. And it had GND and SFZ mixed in one property:
- Allowed values quite varied, e.g. gnd118599631
- Example Johann Gottfried Quistorp (Q1694137) → sfz75422
- Formatter URL https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/$1.html
- But the proposal here is only about those records in Deutsche Biographie that have 1) a GND and 2) an article in ADB (ca 25 000)/NDB (ca 25 000) or a mentioned in the register (ca 100 000). 2.247.46.35 10:13, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Comment Why should the records with no GND value left out? Imho it is advantage of this property that is covers all records. Of cause a bot should choose carefully what records are imported but the property is open for all. --Kolja21 (talk) 13:31, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Kolja21, do you propose mixing GND and SFZ in one property? That looks like road to problems. If the preferred URL changes (they could change it to example.com/gnd/<ID>) then with a dedicated property it is an easy change in the formatter, but otherwise maybe 100 000+ edits have to be made. There could be a different property for the SFZ, though the SFZ seems not to be visible on a record reached via GND-Link. 2.247.46.35 16:05, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes I support what you are calling "mixing GND and SFZ". I call it "Deutsche Biographie person ID". Just take a look at this example: Ludwig Kiessling (Q1874660), GND 125177828 → deutsche-biographie.de/gnd125177828. Try the link. It wouldn't work. --Kolja21 (talk) 17:27, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Kolja21,
- @"mixing GND and SFZ" - And what is your solution to "If the preferred URL changes (they could change it to example.com/gnd/<ID>) then with a dedicated property it is an easy change in the formatter, but otherwise maybe 100 000+ edits have to be made."? Every time someone wants to obtain the GND or compare it to the GND P227 the query will be more complicated, including working on strings, which needs more processing (CPU time). The SFZ is not officially promoted by the publisher for records that have a GND, support it may just disappear.
- @Ludwig Kiessling (Q1874660) - the search ( https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/search?name=Kie%C3%9Fling%2C+Ludwig ) reveals that there are two SFZ records, sfz125311, sfz40917, both connected to GND 125177828. I just reported this - and that the GND link is not working - to the staff, that looks like a candidate for a merge. One could store gnd125177828, sfz125311, sfz40917, but SFZ and GND are of a different nature, and one does not know how the future formatter will look like.
- 2.247.46.35 19:15, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- You reported it to the staff? What staff? As far as I know they have a secretary, that works for the printed edition of the NDB and sometime they hire students. --Kolja21 (talk) 23:45, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- Before you hand out more questions, could you answer the ones posed to you? The staff was happy to receive the report and said a search for all such cases will be done. And it was emphasized that their policy is to promote the GND, not the SFZ. I don't know what happens if two SFZ are merged, redirect, removal. And if they have bugs here, maybe they also have bugs with the GND, i.e. their GND value can differ from the GND value found in the official register. Waiting for User:Pigsonthewing and User:ArthurPSmith to explain in light of this how they propose to handle such cases. 92.230.142.158 17:11, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
- You reported it to the staff? What staff? As far as I know they have a secretary, that works for the printed edition of the NDB and sometime they hire students. --Kolja21 (talk) 23:45, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- Kolja21, do you propose mixing GND and SFZ in one property? That looks like road to problems. If the preferred URL changes (they could change it to example.com/gnd/<ID>) then with a dedicated property it is an easy change in the formatter, but otherwise maybe 100 000+ edits have to be made. There could be a different property for the SFZ, though the SFZ seems not to be visible on a record reached via GND-Link. 2.247.46.35 16:05, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- That gave an example with SFZ, not with GND. And it had GND and SFZ mixed in one property:
- Support--Oursana (talk) 11:42, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Comment I find this discussion highly confusing - is there one IP user with various different addresses who has proposed this property, or is it multiple different people? I don't know who is advocating for what at this point. If anonymous users could at the least identify themselves clearly on each post (use a consistent signature for example in addition to the standard one) - or preferably open an account here, that would help a lot. Is the original proposer in favor of the current name and the apparent proposal to use whatever Deutsche Biographie is using as an identifier, whether or not it is GND? I think that's ok with me. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:17, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
- User:ArthurPSmith maybe just judge based on message content, not message meta data? WD:NPA: /Comment on content, not on the contributor./ Deutsche Biographie is a major German-language website, they promote linking by GND and want to phase out their own SFZ. But their statement on person-GND relation is not the one made in the GND authority file, it can be different, even if it should normally be the same. They don't cover all GND and there is no public plan that they intend to do so. The focus is on humans related to the German-language area. https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/ueber?language=en 2.245.11.89 17:55, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not commenting on the contributor, I'm trying to understand whether the original proposer of this property, who did so from the 92.230.132.107 address, is in agreement with this discussion. Normally in evaluating proposals the opinion of the proposer as an individual is important. Reviewing the comments, I do see several more from that same IP address, so I'm guessing the answer is yes, but it's hard to tell. But now looking at the examples in the template it looks like they need further work anyway - the 'sfz' cases should be removed if they are not wanted as real example cases for this property, and the examples should be formatted properly to show what ID you expect to be entered (just the numeric value it looks like?) Also, ideally I would like to see specific examples of where the ID differs from GND, and a note somewhere of a case where GND has an entry that this is missing, to cover the range of possibilities here. ArthurPSmith (talk) 14:26, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
- User:ArthurPSmith, the IP-Team is fine with the removal of the SFZ examples. They had been inserted by User:Kolja21 [1] who tried to turn the proposal into a mixed parameter property proposal, similar to his ill-fated de:Vorlage;Deutsche Biographie. Due to the latter a maintenance category was created 2018-07-07 de:Kategorie:Wikipedia:Vorlagenfehler/Vorlage:Deutsche Biographie, and users are now removing SFZ. 78.52.117.208 10:57, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not commenting on the contributor, I'm trying to understand whether the original proposer of this property, who did so from the 92.230.132.107 address, is in agreement with this discussion. Normally in evaluating proposals the opinion of the proposer as an individual is important. Reviewing the comments, I do see several more from that same IP address, so I'm guessing the answer is yes, but it's hard to tell. But now looking at the examples in the template it looks like they need further work anyway - the 'sfz' cases should be removed if they are not wanted as real example cases for this property, and the examples should be formatted properly to show what ID you expect to be entered (just the numeric value it looks like?) Also, ideally I would like to see specific examples of where the ID differs from GND, and a note somewhere of a case where GND has an entry that this is missing, to cover the range of possibilities here. ArthurPSmith (talk) 14:26, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
- User:ArthurPSmith maybe just judge based on message content, not message meta data? WD:NPA: /Comment on content, not on the contributor./ Deutsche Biographie is a major German-language website, they promote linking by GND and want to phase out their own SFZ. But their statement on person-GND relation is not the one made in the GND authority file, it can be different, even if it should normally be the same. They don't cover all GND and there is no public plan that they intend to do so. The focus is on humans related to the German-language area. https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/ueber?language=en 2.245.11.89 17:55, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Comment Obviously the same IP has started or caused multiple discussions on this topic in the German Wikipedia:
- de:Vorlage Diskussion:Normdaten#SFZ - Deutsche Biographie (18. Jun. 2018)
- de:Vorlage:IDB (28. Jun. 2018)
- de:WP:FZW #Links zu Deutsche Biographie - SFZ durch GND ersetzen (4. Jul. 2018)
- That's not very helpful (see also de:Vorlage Diskussion:Deutsche Biographie). I withdraw my support. --Kolja21 (talk) 00:55, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks to the initiative of several IPs in dewiki, users are now cleaning up the mess created by User:Kolja21. 2015-05-09 Kolja21 had created de:Vorlage:Deutsche Biographie, which on 2018-07-07 got a tracking category [2] [3]. Users are now mass-removing the errors [4]. The withdrawel of support by User:Kolja21 for the property proposal says something about the personality of User:Kolja21 and can be taken as a sign of quality of the proposal. He doesn't get his mixed parameter property and the mixed parameter template in dewiki is converted to GND-only. 78.52.117.208 11:33, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Just for the records: As you mentioned I have created de:Vorlage:Deutsche Biographie in 2015. The template worked perfectly fine till you've started flooding deWP with demands and proposals (using different IPs and talk pages) and we, not you, are cleaning up the mess you've created. --Kolja21 (talk) 14:10, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- All the IP's who participated are probably the same person: The long banner user known as "Tobias Conradi". Blocked some ranges and protected this page.
- I don't really have an opinion about this property, but I don't see a consensus in favor for creating it at the moment. Multichill (talk) 19:44, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Just for the records: As you mentioned I have created de:Vorlage:Deutsche Biographie in 2015. The template worked perfectly fine till you've started flooding deWP with demands and proposals (using different IPs and talk pages) and we, not you, are cleaning up the mess you've created. --Kolja21 (talk) 14:10, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
@Kolja21, Multichill, ArthurPSmith, Pigsonthewing, Jura1: will not be created -- JakobVoss (talk) 20:25, 15 August 2018 (UTC)