View source for Property talk:P1933

{{Property documentation
|infobox parameter      = {{para|id}} in [[:en:Template:MobyGames]]
}}

{{Autofix|pattern=/([a-z0-9_\-]+)|replacement=\1}}
{{Autofix|pattern=/?([a-z0-9_\-]+)/|replacement=\1}}
{{Autofix|pattern=/?game/([a-z0-9_\-]+)/?|replacement=\1}}
{{Autofix|pattern=/?[a-z0-9_\-]+?\/([a-z-_0-9]+?)|replacement=\1}}
{{Autofix|pattern=<nowiki>([1-9]\d*)</nowiki>|replacement=\1|move_to=P11688}}

{{ExternalUse|
* [[:no:Mal:Moby spill]]
* [[:ca:Plantilla:Infotaula videojoc]], [[:ca:Plantilla:Infotaula de programari/prova]], [[:ca:Plantilla:Infotaula de programari]], [[:ca:Plantilla:Infotaula programari]], [[:ca:Plantilla:Infotaula programari/prova]]
* [[:it:Template:Collegamenti esterni]], [[:it:Template:MobyGames]]
* [[:fi:Malline:MobyGames WD]]
* [[:nl:Sjabloon:Link MobyGames]]
* [[:ga:Teimpléad:WD Bosca Sonraí Bogearraí]]
* [[:sv:Mall:Moby Games]]
* [[:ru:Шаблон:Внешние ссылки]]
* [[:de:Vorlage:MobyGames]]
* [[:cs:Šablona:MobyGames]]
}}

{{Games properties}}

== Normalisation & autofix ==

I’m adding an autofix to normalize the slug without the platform prefix − replacing for example <code>dos/bioforge</code> with <code>bioforge</code>.

The reason for this is that the platform prefix is not part of the identifier. MobyGames data model operates at the work level, not the platform-realization level. They do have platform-level information (as releases) but that’s a second-level concept. URL-wise, prefixing with the platform is a UI trick that will switch around the information displayed (eg different publishers or credits). But the prefix can actually be set to anything, meaning [https://www.mobygames.com/game/potatoes/bioforge potatoes/bioforge] will resolve.

And somewhat worse: in the case of {{Q|Q864309}}, it was published on DOS and Windows, which would map (respectively) to [https://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/bioforge dos/bioforge] and [https://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/bioforge windows/bioforge]. However, a URL of [https://www.mobygames.com/game/wii/bioforge wii/bioforge] will resolve, even though that game was never published on that platform.

With only 446 instances out of a total usage of 15K (3%), the current practice is clearly to use the canonical ID, so that seems non-controversial :)

[[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 09:16, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
: {{reply to|Jean-Frédéric}} Totally agree with you, this ID property should contain only a one single value without platform prefix. I think, the platform should be removed also from the qualifiers constraint. [[User:Kirilloparma|Kirilloparma]] ([[User talk:Kirilloparma|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 13:36, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
::{{ping|Kirilloparma}} Thanks for the answer! Looks like the autofix did the trick and all the old-style usage was replaced (eg [[Special:Diff/974801312]]).
::I have now changed the formatting-related bits (properties & constraints) accordingly.
::Regarding the single-value constraint: I agree as well. There is the case of the special/limited-editions, where MobyGames will typically issue another ID − for example {{Q|Q1166232}} has two entries on MobyGames, ''[https://www.mobygames.com/game/dark-souls dark-souls]'' and ''[https://www.mobygames.com/game/dark-souls-limited-edition dark-souls-limited-edition]''. In that case, I think it’s fine to have several values (with maybe {{Property|P548}} as qualifier) − see eg [[Q1166232#P1933]]. But agree that platform is not an okay separator-qualifier, will remove as well.
::[[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 22:08, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
::: Many thanks for normalisation of this property and the new [[P:P548|qualifier]], that seems very helpful :). [[User:Kirilloparma|Kirilloparma]] ([[User talk:Kirilloparma|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 14:55, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

=== P400 as a valid separator for single-value constraint ===
''<small>Making a new section to clarify the scope of the discussion − based on my undestanding, please let me know if I got it wrong :-) [[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 22:24, 15 September 2019 (UTC)</small>''

::::Platform must be an okay separator-qualifier. Sometimes Mobygames makes separate entries for different platforms, while the rest of the world consider them the same game. I mean the unique identifier, not the prefix. --[[User:Bultro|Bultro]] ([[User talk:Bultro|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 17:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
::::Maybe an example helps: this is a multiplatform game on en.wiki
::::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Recall_(video_game)
::::platform versions have some differences, and on Mobygames they consider it as ''four'' separate entries
::::https://www.mobygames.com/game/total-recall
::::https://www.mobygames.com/game/total-recall_
::::https://www.mobygames.com/game/total-recall__
::::https://www.mobygames.com/game/total-recall___
::::Thare are ''a lot'' of cases like this. Mobygames is not an authority, it's just run by volunteers like a Wiki, and they make arbitrary decisions about splitting by platform or not. We just can't consider this a single value property by platform (unless you want to randomly choose one of those IDs in [[Q60738895]] and give incomplete information) --[[User:Bultro|Bultro]] ([[User talk:Bultro|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 18:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
::::: {{reply to|Bultro}} Example that you provided isn't good at all, because it's '''only one example''' of other thousand elements that don't have the underscore symbol ___. For example, {{Q|Q864309}} has no underscore symbol at all ([https://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/bioforge], [https://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/bioforge]), same for {{Q|Q548203}} (see [https://www.mobygames.com/game/ps3/red-dead-redemption], [https://www.mobygames.com/game/xbox360/red-dead-redemption]), so we are always there (same problem mentioned before), going to the preferences is not our intention, so in any case, platform prefix ([[P:P400|P400]]) must no longer be included to the qualifiers allowed for MobyGames ID. Regards. [[User:Kirilloparma|Kirilloparma]] ([[User talk:Kirilloparma|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 21:03, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
::::::{{reply to|Kirilloparma}} I think Bultro’s concerns are not so much about the normalisation (removing the <code>gba/foo</code> for <code>foo</code>), and more about the fact that {{Property|P400}} should be an acceptable {{Property|P4155}} for not triggering the {{Q|Q19474404}} − for example [[Q18940#P1933]]. [[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 22:24, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
:::::{{reply to|Bultro}} That’s a fair concern, thanks for raising it :-)
:::::My own experience has been quite the opposite: I find that Wikipedias have a clear tendency of covering several different games under one article because they share the same name. This is particularly prevalent with tie-in games to movie franchises. Here is an example I unraveled last week: ''[[:en:Over the Hedge: Hammy Goes Nuts!]]'' covers a Game Boy Advance miniature golf game, a Nintendo DS action adventure game, and a PSP platform game. These games really have little in common and should be separate items, so I converted {{Q|Q7113487}} to be a {{Q|Q21484471}} and created three actual Q7889 items.
:::::Now, there might be cases where MobyGames gets it wrong, or too granular for our purposes ; but my experience so far is that MobyGames is more often right in separating actually different games, than they are at separating virtually identical ones − and definitely better than Wikipedia articles.
:::::(Note that I don’t mean that as a criticism − Wikipedia articles are meant to be synthetic and it often makes sense to cover, say, handheld tie-ins to ''[[:en:Tomb Raider: Legend]]'' in one article − in the same way it can make sense to cover 4 light-novels, 3 video game and 2 manga series, anime and OAVs [[:en:A Certain Magical Index|in one article]], a situation which we need to unravel on Wikidata.)
:::::Regarding the constraint: the occasional false-positives can be white-listed with {{Property|P2303}}. Would that alleviate your concerns?
:::::Hope that helps, [[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 22:24, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
::::::Thanks for understanding. Over the Hedge is an extreme situation and en.wiki's choice to consider it one video game is very questionable in that case. But I'm afraid that uncertain situations are not rare. If Wikidata had decided since the start to make a separate item for every platform it would make more sense, but following Mobygame's mood isn't much better than following other Wikimedia projects.
::::::Every time you transform a videogame item into a {{Q|Q21484471}} item, Wikipedias lose all the data they were reading from Wikidata. Are you going to do it with {{Q|Q2337936}} too, just because Mobygames decided to split one version?
::::::Sure there is the {{Property|P2303}} option, but then again we could argue if Mobygames is "right" or not. And it gets complex for users that don't know this issue. Just allowing P400 as a qualifier, like we did for years, seems the more harmless thing to do.
::::::(in any case, [https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q388929&type=revision&diff=1013971272&oldid=1013968179 just deleting IDs] is not the right thing to do, is it??) --[[User:Bultro|Bultro]] ([[User talk:Bultro|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 00:23, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
:::::::I agree that turning items into {{Q|Q21484471}} is a bit extreme and not always the right thing to do − for example, when I splitted off {{Q|Q62396187}} and {{Q|Q62396186}} from {{Q|Q665785}}, I left {{Q|Q665785}} as the Q7889 for the 'main' game − because I think it’s more or less clear that it is mostly what the WP articles are talking about. I think it really becomes weird when in the future we start adding statements for indicating the visual style (side-scrolling 2D, isometric 3D, first-person, etc.)
:::::::I also agree that ''Over the Hedge'' is a bit of an extreme example − but I find milder versions all the time: for example, I just looked up [[:en:Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell (video game)|Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell]] and it also covers a GBA/Ngage game and a mobile phone game, while I think it is clear that there are 3 very different games − which MobyGames gets it right ([https://www.mobygames.com/game/tom-clancys-splinter-cell-] & [https://www.mobygames.com/game/tom-clancys-splinter-cell_]). For Alone in the Dark though, I agree that the difference (if any) does feel a bit thin to me.
:::::::Wikipedia articles 'merge' these games _just/mostly because_ they have the same name: for me, that would be the same as having one item for {{Q|Q2718657}} and {{Q|Q518987}} (which could easily have been called with the same name) or for {{Q|Q6582527}} and {{Q|Q2600361}} (which is actually called MGS in some territories): it’s just not the same game. I’m not saying MobyGames is the gospel, just that I think they are more often right than wrong, often enough to warrant the current constraint setup (with the occasional exception handled with {{Property|P2303}}). But I’m ready to be convinced otherwise though :-)
:::::::(Re: one item per platform: that’s sort of a separate discussion but I really think we will need to do that at some point and have different [https://diggr.github.io/diggr-video-game-vocabulary/#http://vocab.ub.uni-leipzig.de/diggr/Platform_Realization platform-realization]-sub-items to a main 'game', if only to have a sane way to indicate release-dates and distribution formats. It’s not for now though ; I do need to put together a proposal for everyone to discuss. If you are interested I gathered some of thoughts at [[User:Jean-Frédéric/Videogames data model]].)
:::::::Re: Wikipedias losing all the data they were reading from Wikidata: That ''is'' a very good point that I will readily admit, kind of overlooked. While I know that some WP do, I was always under the assumption that it was not many of them, but I’m mostly biaised with the languages I can read (En, Fr, Es, De) or sort-of-parse (It, Nl) − I actually don’t really know which WPs actively use data from Wikidata on games. I still think it should not be a blocker for splitting things, because WP infoboxes (for example) 'just' need to be made a bit smarter in their Lua to fetch data from linked items. I agree though that they should be kept in the loop of these kind of decisions.
:::::::[[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 09:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
:{{ping|BrokenSegue}} − this was the reasoning so far for not allowing {{P|400}} as valid separator. [[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 06:05, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
::I see... this seems at odds with the treatment for {{P|P1712}} [[User:BrokenSegue|BrokenSegue]] ([[User talk:BrokenSegue|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 22:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
:::Some video game databases, like Metacritic (and GameFAQs, UVL etc.) have a data-model with one ID per platform-realization − even if it’s “the same game” − so it’s expected to have more than one ID per item. However Mobygames has one ID per game − which is 'the same' (with caveats) to our own modelling here on Wikidata.
:::Where it becomes a bit fuzzy, is that it’s not always clear how different two products need to be (whether they have the same name or not) to be considered the same game, covered under the same item. Mobygames gets it right (in my opinion) most of the time ; but there’s also cases (as argued by Bultro above) where they’re really splitting hairs − and entries − based on very minor differences − a split we may not want to blindly follow either.
:::[[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 15:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Rightly, the newer [[Property:P11688|MobyGames game ID]] does not have this constraint. Why keep this hindrance in the old id, that represents exactly the same pages? Especially, I can't see the point in [https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q2927458&diff=2087377734&oldid=2087362474 removing qualifiers] without substitutes, leaving there an error and no explanation. Kirilloparma's obstinacy just forces me not to read from Wikidata and do things manually on Wikipedia. --[[Special:Contributions/95.233.202.18|95.233.202.18]] 08:11, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
::::: > ''Rightly, the newer MobyGames game ID does not have this constraint''
::::: [[P:P11688#P11688$61608A9F-03A1-45FA-B57E-7149C1105161|It has]].
::::: > ''Why keep this hindrance in the old id, that represents exactly the same pages?''
::::: It doesn't represents exactly the same pages because {{P|11688}} and {{P|1933}} are not the same thing. P1933 is a property of the former scheme, which has identifiers in the form of URL slugs, and the other has numeric ones (new format), so it is a property of a completely different format. MobyGames' human-readable IDs are now unstable and have turned into redirects that are slowly and gradually dying. Numeric identifiers have a clear priority mainly because they are stable and new entries in the database no longer use URL slugs (as of 20.02.2023, i.e. starting approximately from [https://www.mobygames.com/game/121102 this ID]).

::::: By the way, in September 2023, the same thing happened to Metacritic. They decided to get rid of the platform prefix and, as it turned out later, switched to numeric identifiers (as an alternative). On Wikidata it was decided to create a separate property for games to avoid using the {{P|1712}} property, which has a wide range of uses. P1712, which is now deprecated, is still used for movies, TV series and music, but no longer for video games. Additionally, a property for [[P:P12078|numeric IDs]] was created (used as a qualifier for the main one).

::::: For more information, see.
:::::* [[:d:Property talk:P1712#Change in format for game identifiers|Property talk:P1712#Change in format for game identifiers]]
:::::* [[:d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Metacritic game ID|Wikidata:Property proposal/Metacritic game ID]]
:::::* [[:d:Wikidata talk:WikiProject Video games#Metacritic (IMPORTANT_UPDATE)|Wikidata talk:WikiProject Video games#Metacritic (IMPORTANT_UPDATE)]]. 

::::: > ''Especially, I can't see the point in removing qualifiers without substitutes, leaving there an error and no explanation.''
::::: No explanation? You cited the [[Special:Diff/2087377734|diff]] in which I said how MobyGames identifiers should be handled. Some specific examples? Here: [[Q20095751#P1933|1]], [[Q29045915#P1933|2]], [[Q17185964#P1933|3]], [[Q76255#P1933|4]], [[Q55602944#P1933|5]].

::::: > ''Kirilloparma's obstinacy just forces me not to read from Wikidata and do things manually on Wikipedia.''
::::: And in turn, your obstinacy in pushing P400 qualifier even when it has been explained several times how to handle MobyGames IDs makes me wonder why you keep doing it. Please note that you are on Wikidata and our modeling may not necessarily match the way it is done on Wikipedia and that's perfectly fine. Wikidata is an independent and autonomous project, with its own rules, different from the rules of the language sections of Wikipedia. Just as Wikipedia does not have to follow our practices. Here you can specify age ratings for a [[Q60850588#P852|particular game]], which is something you [[:en:Template_talk:Infobox_video_game/Archive_11#Propose_removal_of_ratings_section.|can't do]] for example on en.wiki. Regards [[User:Kirilloparma|Kirilloparma]] ([[User talk:Kirilloparma|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 05:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
::::::Hey but in [[Property:P1933#P2302]] there's already "allowed qualifiers constraint" = "platform". It was fixed at some point. So [[user:Kirilloparma]] what are you talking about?--[[User:Bultro|Bultro]] ([[User talk:Bultro|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 18:06, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
::::::: {{Ping|Bultro}} This qualifier is being added back from time to time by different participants unaware of this discussion ([[Special:Diff/982124660]], [[Special:Diff/1302725110]], [[Special:Diff/1298643109]]), which happened [[Special:Diff/1734310587|this time as well]], but that's fine, I guess. The issue here is not even {{Q|21510851}}, but {{Q|52060874}}. This property should not use two or more values ([[P:P1933#P1933$A9B04387-2991-4550-B3C2-278E905A1ABD|best one]] should be used instead). Only {{P|548}} is allowed as a separator if there are video game editions ([[Q20095751#P1933|example]]). It is also possible to split items by platform, taking {{Q|123050113}}, {{Q|113494450}}, {{Q|50385786}}, {{Q|2891551}}, {{Q|21540307}} and {{Q|62019198}} as an example. 

::::::: In brief: there should be only one MobyGames ID and if there are any editions, then P548 qualifier is used, if there are multiple values, the preferred rank is set for the main one. Do you still not understand this from the 2019 discussion? Please re-read discussion on issue raised, it is explained here why P400 qualifier should not be in the statements. See also [[Property talk:P1933#c-Jean-Frédéric-20220923155300-BrokenSegue-20220922221800|this]] clarification from Jean-Frédéric. Also please avoid using dozens of IPs to discuss and undo edits, it looks odd and quite suspicious... Regards [[User:Kirilloparma|Kirilloparma]] ([[User talk:Kirilloparma|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 05:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

== Adding {{Property|P548}} as qualifier ==

Following up on the previous section: I made a QuickStatements batch, {{QuickStatements batch|16620}}, to add the {{Property|P548}} when the Mobygames ID matched a certain regex − here was the SPARQL:
{{SPARQL
|query=SELECT ?item ?value ?versionLabel WHERE
{
  ?item p:P1933 ?statement.
  ?statement ps:P1933 ?value .
  
  FILTER( REGEX(REPLACE(STR(?value), "%20", " "), "^.*?(:?limited|special|collectors)-edition$") )
  OPTIONAL { ?statement pq:P548 ?version}
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
}
}}
My mapping was:
* <code>limited-edition</code> → {{Q|Q6549529}}
* <code>special-edition</code> → {{Q|Q1341283}}
* <code>collectors-edition</code> → {{Q|Q58806721}}
* (Should have added <code>deluxe-edition</code> → {{Q|Q58482603}})

(Although I’m not sure how precise these terms are − they feel very interchangeable to me… And there’s even <code>limited-collectors-edition</code> ;-D)

And then there’s going to be a long tail of random names, <code>titanium-edition</code>, <code>survival-edition</code> that I guess will have to be processed manually…

[[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 12:01, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
:Also did {{QuickStatements batch|16622}} ; maybe I was a bit heavy handed though: {{Q|Q16258862}} does not seem to be a paricular edition, just an annoyingly named game >_> [[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 12:07, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
::And another one: {{QuickStatements batch|16930}}. [[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 14:24, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

== Imports ==

I had imported in the past a bunch of IDs from Wikipedias, using [[toolforge:pltools/harvesttemplates|HarvestTemplates]] − see [https://tools.wmflabs.org/editgroups/?tags=prop-P1933 the editgroups list]. It looks like I had forgotten some:
* Japanese-language Wikipedia − now done via {{HarvestTemplates batch|cd7f9ec0e9b0}} & {{HarvestTemplates batch|37cc870c3cd5}}
* German-language Wikipedia − now done via {{HarvestTemplates batch|d356b4684279}}

[[User:Jean-Frédéric|Jean-Fred]] ([[User talk:Jean-Frédéric|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 16:15, 1 August 2019 (UTC)