VIDEO: Flashpoint | Fatima Payman
LEIGH SALES, AUSTRALIAN STORY PRESENTER: Hello, when former Labor Senator Fatima Payman crossed the floor of the federal parliament eight weeks ago to vote against her own party, she saw it as an act of conscience, but her colleagues considered it treachery.
Every MP at some stage struggles to reconcile their private views with their loyalty to the party and its policies.
So what is Senator Payman’s story behind-the-scenes that caused her to choose a path that not only had serious consequences for her and the Labor party but also for her own family?
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Morning, how are you guys going?
GLENN DRUERY, FATIMA PAYMAN’S CHIEF OF STAFF: Welcome to big school as an independent.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Oh my goodness. Very exciting. Today's first day back here in Parliament as an independent senator for Western Australia.
GLENN DRUERY, FATIMA PAYMAN’S CHIEF OF STAFF: We’ve got dodgy pens, we’ve got dodgy pens. Who is in charge of pens in this new gig?
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: It's quite a lot for me to take in. It's like running your own small business when you have to set up your own website, recruit your own team, make your own policy positions on matters.
GLENN DRUERY, FATIMA PAYMAN’S CHIEF OF STAFF: You need to have a look at this NDIS
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Yes.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I feel a bit naive about how politics works. And I may have come into politics with being overly ambitious and optimistic and, you know, soon that was crushed really fast.
GLENN DRUERY, FATIMA PAYMAN’S CHIEF OF STAFF: I don't think the Labor Party are too fond of the whole situation that's happened, but they have to deal with the senator now.
NEWSREADER: She's the face of the new generation of politicians, the youngest senator in parliament and has created history by becoming the first hijab-wearing Muslim in Australian Parliament.
CHANDA PARMA-BONTA, PRESIDENT WA MULTICULTURAL LABOR BRANCH: She had it all. She had youth on her side. She was bright. She was articulate. She was perfect.
ANTHONY ALBANESE: And Fatima. That is what govt looks like and you know what it looks like Australia diverse, strong men and women, people of different backgrounds.
DAVID CROWE: CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NINE NEWSPAPERS: When Fatima Payman got into the Senate this was a big moment for Labor but there was an element of surprise there and she was an unknown factor.
REPORTER: The death toll in Gaza has passed 20 thousand Palestinians nearly half of them children...
PROTESTERS: Labor Labor shame shame.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I was stuck between a rock and a hard place. It felt like my own party is just treating me as you need to look like you but sound like us. I was so conflicted. I have to toe a particular line that doesn’t sit with my conscience and my values.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I ask our Prime Minister and our fellow parliamentarians, how many lives need to be lost before we say enough?
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: It's not often that your wife is in a public fist fight with the prime minister. It was a lot.
ANNE ALY, FEDERAL LABOR MP: I know that she was struggling. I was a bit disappointed that despite every effort to reach out to her, she decided to take the action that she took.
NEWSREADER: Now to some news just in, Labor Senator Fatima Payman has crossed the floor...
NEWSREADER: The senator broke the rules, but gee she has put the Prime Minister in a tricky position.
DAVID CROWE: CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NINE NEWSPAPERS: It's really hard to underestimate just what's at stake in a moment like that.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Thank you for being here today.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: If I'm not in Canberra, I try to make it every Wednesday night. Um, this is my little escape from the the crazy day to day, I can just, you know, blend in. I never thought I would, um, marry a white guy. Amazing shot.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: Thanks babe. When she started to speak out I had a conflict between my work as a state Labor staffer and my supporting my wife.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Sometimes I'm like, how do you put up with my craziness? Like, I bet he didn't think he would end up in a marriage like this.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: There was a conflict in me of, well, this is the best way to do it, is to advocate from within and just toe the line. And we had arguments about it.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: I might be smelly.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: That’s ok.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: And we'd only been married for four months. It creates an unbelievable amount of tension.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: We got married 18th of February this year. I've always just grown up with family. So for me, it was, you know, quite easy to just request him to move in.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: Who's the best boxer?
IBRAHIM: Um. Me?
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: Living with the Paymans is very different to what it's like living with my family. It's been an adjustment, but I've loved it.
HORUSH PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S SISTER: Fatima's life in Canberra is quite depressing.
SHOGUFA PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S MOTHER: Sometimes she keeps calling me mum. I miss your rice. I miss your food, Mum.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I was born in Kabul, in Afghanistan. I was the first child of the first son in the family. So, it was a big deal.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Ah, so this is when I was just born. That's me, that's mum.
HORUSH PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S SISTER: And that’s when mum and dad were having the best life.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Afghanistan was a beautiful place. We're talking 1995, 1996 but then the Taliban took over.
HORUSH PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S SISTER: Because of my grandfather's involvement in politics, we were in danger. So, we had to flee. So the whole family, we ran away to Pakistan.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: Where is this?
SHOGUFA PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S MOTHER: Pakistan Yeah. We was cooking together. We had very, very bad days in Pakistan and I said to my husband he has to go to Australia by boat, at least we have to have like, better future for my kids over there and then he left.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: We were living in Pakistan for about three to four years before dad sponsored us over to join him here in Australia.
HORUSH PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S SISTER: This is when we first came to Australia. Dad was working as a security guard. Fatima was like my parents’ best friend really, in a country where they didn't know the language. The eldest child is seen to be the one that carries the most responsibility.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I was the first head girl at Australian Islamic College and I took my role very seriously. Didn't have a great reputation amongst my peers. Um, you know, they all, you know, refer to me as “the snitch”. You know, I was a bit of a loner, but it's okay. I had plenty of teachers to keep me company. I think looking different and being made to feel different you kind of grow up with that unspoken truth of you do have to carry yourself with a high standard. And I'm a walking representation of my faith. Like, I literally not only wear my emotions and my faith on my sleeve, but literally on my head.
SHOGUFA PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S MOTHER: My husband was a politics person. He really liked politics in his life. Always, always it was his dream, one of his kids become a politician.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: But at such a tender age of 47, he's got cancer and a cancer that won't spare him extra years. Dad's passing instilled in me the sense of urgency, ‘Fatima wake up’, you know. Yeah, ‘you may be 22, 23, but you might not have the time that you think you do’. And so for me, it was almost immediately just thrusting myself into volunteering.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I'll just get supplies. How about that? I'm your supply girl. And in 2019 I got involved in young Labor and you know, the grassroots activism, campaigning drew me to wanting to learn more. But Young Labor was very male dominated, very less colour in the room if I can be so blunt.
CHANDA PARMA-BONTA, PRESIDENT WA MULTICULTURAL LABOR BRANCH: When she became the president of Young Labor, she really transformed who Young Labor is. I saw the demographic of Young Labor change.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: It’s ok. Do you remember this?
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: I was always passionate about politics. I got involved with the Labor Party just after the state election in 2017 and I had contact with Fatima for the first time through email.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Jacob was asking are you able to help us door knock for the election campaign and I’m just wondering, who’s this guy and the nerve to just call me up and say, do you want to volunteer? Like, I’ve got my own work to do.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: We had such a different relationship at the time.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: But Jacob had this enthusiasm, this almost contagious energy.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: I do remember thinking she's kind of cute. She, she seems fun.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: In 2021, I started working at United Workers Union. And I was tapped on the shoulder by my then union boss to run as number three on the Senate ticket. I was like, are you are you sure? And he was like, don't worry, Labor hasn't won that seat since 1984. And I'm like, that's before I was born. Phew. Great.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: For the 2022 federal election, I was made her campaign manager. It was just a team of two, the Labor Party didn't give us anything, and rightfully so, because we weren't expected to win.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Gosh, the first time I actually get to see Penny Wong in flesh. Yeah, I was freaking out.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: That's a fangirl face.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: That is a fangirl face. Gosh, oh my god. I was such a little naive girl. My goodness.
(Fatima watching Albo clip on phone)Anthony Albanese: “We are really, really hoping that Fatima Payman is able to join us, uh, as a senator, uh, going forward”.
Fatima: Sighs. Oh man.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: Usually with candidates you can sort of pack a day from 9 to 5 and just hit something from 9 to 10, 10 to 11. But for you it was, well, no, I can't do that because at 12.30pm I need to pray, or then at 3.45pm I need to pray. And so yeah, I did have to learn, but wanted to learn about how I could move things around and make sure they fit with the faith.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: With Jacob, I felt like some of the traits that I admired in my dad, I could see reflected in him. But I've made it a very clear point that I would like a Muslim partner.
ANTONY GREEN, ELECTION ANALYST: The one state where there has been a shift across the spectrum is Western Australia. There's no doubt about what Western Australians are voting for at this stage.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: On election night when it felt like I was winning it was almost hard to believe - I was like, no, this can't be happening.
NEWSREADER: Counting has concluded for the 6th WA senate seats with Labor’s Fatima Payman picking up the final seat.
DAVID CROWE: CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NINE NEWSPAPERS: She was brought into the Senate on the strength of that Labor vote as a whole, rather than just the strength of her own brand, because she was relatively unknown.
ANNE ALY, FEDERAL LABOR MP: When Fatima got elected, there was such joy within the party.
LABOR MP IN CAUCUS: And now a very warm welcome to our third Senator for Western Australia which is very exciting. Please give a big shout out to Fatima Payman.
ANNE ALY, FEDERAL LABOR MP: I believe that Fatima could have gone very, very far and achieved so much in this party, And I had always hoped that she would.
HORUSH PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S SISTER: I remember Fatima was never really keen on getting married. She didn't want to be held down and she wanted to work towards her goals.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I was mostly in Canberra and I felt like that absence made me reflect that I think there was something there with Jacob.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: These are my, uh, Quran learning books, basically my Arabic. When I started exploring the Islamic faith it was probably around the time that I was becoming Fatima's campaign manager. There are a lot of parallels between how I was raised sort of as a Christian and then and then Islam, but a lot of it is just focused on family and good values and just do good things and good things will happen to you.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: He'd approached me middle of last year and he was like, look, I've accepted the faith and, um, I would like to ask for your hand in marriage. And I was I was overjoyed, firstly because I was praying for this to happen but I remember being super excited but also a bit nervous, like how’s mum going to react how are my siblings going to react?
SHOGUFA PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S MOTHER: And first, I must say, no, it's impossible. We are Afghan. Um and he's Aussie boy, it's impossible. After when I find he's a Muslim guy, he's reverted to Islam. And then I said, no, I think he's the right person for her.
SALMAN PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S BROTHER: He got down on his on one knee, on one knee and proposed in front of everyone. Everyone, which was quite shocking, to be honest.
HORUSH PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S SISTER: It's not something normal in our culture, but it was so cute. I think that was genuinely really a sweet gesture.
SHOGUFA PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S MOTHER: Alhamdulillah. I'm very happy now. He's very good boy, basically he's Afghan boy now.
DAVID CROWE: CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NINE NEWSPAPERS: During Fatima's first year in parliament she wasn't high profile. October 7th changed all that.
NEWS REPORT: Allah-u-Akbar! Israel and Gaza are at war, Palestinian gunmen have crossed into Israel.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: October 7th was a tragic day. The perpetrators should be condemned. And it's an atrocity that needs to be called out.
NEWS REPORT: The large-scale surprise attack by Gaza militants has left at least 250 Israelis dead.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: And then within a few hours, you know the main monuments around the country are lit up with the Israeli flag colours and then the onslaught of Gaza starts.
NEWS REPORT: Israel vowed retribution, and the retaliation was swift.
REPORTER: The federal government officially backs a two-state solution. That’s left some within the Palestinian community questioning why they aren’t receiving the same show of solidarity for the lives lost in Gaza.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: The outrage was reverberating throughout. Community members, people I'd grown up with were messaging me and saying, what's your government doing?
CHANDA PARMA-BONTA, PRESIDENT WA MULTICULTURAL LABOR BRANCH: Labor Party members were very critical of the government. We were very dissatisfied with the responses that we were receiving. We wanted a permanent ceasefire, we wanted sanctions.
TREASURER JIM CHALMERS: A two-state solution is a good place to focus our efforts.
PRIME MINISTER ANTHONY ALBANESE: support for a two-state solution
FOREIGN MINISTER PENNY WONG: will only come with a two-state solution.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: How can we advocate for a two-state solution when one of those two states isn't even recognised by the country?
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I was hearing from people that were leaving the party over our stance on Gaza, and it just felt like more needed to be done. I remember feeling really scared and talking to Jacob and saying where is this going to go and what kind of role am I going to play in this?
NEWSREADER: An Israeli air strike has killed four international aid workers, including an Australian.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: When Zomi Frankcom was killed I was like this has got to be our turning point as Australia stands. I called the Foreign Minister and I said I would like to say that, you know, I call on the government to um either apply sanctions or pause trade. And the response I got was, no, we can't because you're going to put us in a precarious position. You're going to corner us.
GRAPHIC: Foreign Minister Penny Wong declined to comment on private conversations.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: When Fatima started taking the steps to speak out I wanted to support my wife, but sometimes I'd have to say to her, like, I don't want to get in trouble. I don't want to put my boss in a bad situation. We spoke about it, we had arguments about it. I was definitely in the I guess you'd call it the camp of raise your voice within caucus.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I had senior colleagues tell me, if you don't want anything to be leaked, don't bring it up in caucus. And so I was directly speaking with the Foreign Minister. I would literally cry and say, what do I do? And the Foreign Minister would acknowledge the suffering and then say that Australia is a small fish in a big pond we don't really have power over the Israeli government. But my intention was never for us as the Labor Party, to go into Israel and tell Netanyahu to drop his guns. Um, it’s how do we maintain the social cohesion amongst our communities? Because they were just so disappointed with the party.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: We would go to the mosque just as regular members of the community to go and pray. And people would just turn their backs, or everyone would just give you stares from a distance. And it felt like I was a stranger to my own community.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: People were questioning whether I'm a real, true Muslim because I'm not doing enough.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: I would wake up in the middle of the night and you would be scrolling on your phone, reading nasty messages from people who were upset that you weren't speaking out. And that was every day. It was every single day for seven months.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: My health was deteriorating. I felt like I was in this depressive mode.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: There was a point where maybe in a week period, we took her to hospital two or three times for just intense migraines that were causing her almost to pass out and vomit.
ANNE ALY, FEDERAL LABOR MP: There was an incredible amount of empathy and compassion for Fatima's position. I am in that same position. Ed Husic is in that same position. This is our community. It's our people. But being in the caucus, being in the government is how you make change.
DAVID CROWE: CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NINE NEWSPAPERS: Through the early months of 2024, the pressure over policy on Gaza really built. The student encampments were happening across the country.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: There were some very chilly early mornings. And so I was like, you know what, I'm going to take breakfast and some hot Afghan tea to these students because I feel for them. I hadn't told anyone because I didn't want this to be a photo op.
CHANDA PARMA-BONTA, PRESIDENT WA MULTICULTURAL LABOR BRANCH: The students weren't interested in the tea they weren’t interested in the croissants. They were so angry. What power do you really have? Are you willing to call it a genocide and are you willing to lose your job over this?
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: A few hours later I get a call from a WA federal colleague and she was basically like, you know, did you get clearance to attend this encampment? Did you get lines on what to say, what not to say?
ANNE ALY, FEDERAL LABOR MP: I don’t know that I called her I might have messaged her. Yeah I was surprised that she went without telling anyone. Nobody knew. And I just I think that, it's a courtesy, right? It's a courtesy to your colleagues to let them know. When people say caucus solidarity, it's not just that you shut up and do whatever the caucus wants, right? It's not even that. It is a mutual respect among us all.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: When I decided no longer to stay quiet, I knew that it was the right thing to do. I read out my statement, calling on the government to do more.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: My conscience has been uneasy for far too long and I must call it out for what it is. This is a genocide and we need to stop pretending otherwise.
REPORTER: Israel insists it is acting within international law and has strenuously denied allegations of genocide.
PRESENTER: What should Albanese do with that Senator?
ALEX RYVCHIN, co-Chief Executive Officer of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry: He needs to ask her to apologise or retract or resign.
PRESENTER: But is it appropriate for a member of your government to use the word genocide?
Richard Marles: Well, it's not the word I would use.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: Once you do something like that in the Labor Party, that that is the beginning of the end.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: The reaction from my colleagues, they came up to me and told me that they felt betrayed.
DAVID CROWE: CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NINE NEWSPAPERS: Every member of the caucus elected to Parliament commits to abide by the decisions of that caucus, even if they're in the minority on a vote by that caucus. That's what solidarity means, and it's fundamental to the way the party works.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: Her staff were leaving, caucus was isolating her, she's getting booted from group chats. In the end, I had to make a choice, and it wasn't a hard choice. I love my wife and I support my wife.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Tuesday 25th of June was the day when the Greens put up the motion calling on the Senate to recognise the state of Palestine. The day prior, I was sat by a few colleagues who were like, how are you going to vote? And I said, I haven't made up my mind. And they were like, well, we're thinking of pairing you out, and that means, you know, you don't need to be in the chamber when this vote is happening.
GRAPHIC: The Chief Government Whip in the Senate says Senator Payman had previously asked to be paired out on votes regarding Palestine.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: And then I remember getting a message from the whip saying, we've paired you out from this time to this time. I reflected on it, and I thought, what would happen if I just rocked up to the chamber?
UPSOT IN CHAMBER: Division required, ring the bells for one minute
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I looked at David Pocock and I was like, I think I'm gonna cross. And he was like, do you want me to walk with you? That's when I just got up and crossed the floor, knowing that this could be the end of my career as a member of the Labor Party.
REPORTER: Senator Payman wasn’t born the last time a Labor Senator crossed the floor, tonight she’s made history but it is her future in the party that is now unclear.
DAVID CROWE: CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NINE NEWSPAPERS: Crossing the floor, it's a big move because it's seen as an act of disloyalty, and it's a seen as a rejection of the major party that brought you to Parliament.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I was not elected as a token representative of diversity, I was elected to serve the people of Western Australia and uphold the values instilled in me by my late father.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I was called into the Prime Minister's office. He had told me I would be suspended from attending the caucus the following week
FOREIGN MINISTER PENNY WONG: The prime minister has dealt with this matter with great restraint on this occasion. Caucus solidarity matters to us and our expectation is Senator Payman will abide by caucus decisions.
ANTHONY ALBANESE: I’ve made my position ah clear to Senator Payman.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: He had told me that I need to reflect on whether I want to be a team player and toe the line.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: She said to me I can't back down now. I need to keep going. And so I drove her to Insiders because there's nobody else in the team that's going to do it.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I felt like if they were going to expel me and they're already phasing me out, then there's no point in me seeking permission to do Insiders.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: If the same motion on recognising the state of Palestine was to be brought forward tomorrow, I would cross the floor.
Speers: You would cross the floor again.
Payman: Yes
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: It then spiraled down real fast. I got a call from the Prime Minister's office. Um, you've got to be at The Lodge at two.
SCOTT STOKES, JACOB’S FATHER: We went to Canberra thinking it was a nice holiday and we just got swallowed up by it all.
NICOLA STOKES, JACOB’S MOTHER: She said, we just have to make a stop at the Lodge. I'll go in, you wait in the car.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: It didn't feel like 45 minutes.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: Yeah, it felt like 4.5 hours.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I felt like a little student in trouble and taken by the teacher to the headmaster's office for a telling off. You know it was a stern conversation. I get out and all of a sudden there's like ‘Senator Payman, Senator Payman!’. What is this, an ambush?
REPORTER: Have you been expelled?
PAYMAN: No
REPORTER: You haven’t been?
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: You got in the car and you said indefinitely suspended.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I didn’t even know what that meant.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: And then the journos were there and we drove off. I thought she was going to come out and say, I've been expelled. But an indefinite suspension was almost worse. It's purgatory.
REPORTER: Just what Fatima Payman does next is unclear.
REPORTER: News she is courting new political advisors and Muslim community groups is fueling speculation she may be about to cut ties with Labor.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Am I going to resign? Am I going to give the seat back to Labor? Am I going to come out and say no, I'm going to toe the line from now on, like, what do you do? It was overwhelming.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: My family did not flee from a war-torn country to come here as refugees for me to remain silent when I see atrocities inflicted on innocent people. I am torn, deeply torn. With a heavy heart but a clear conscience, I announced my resignation from the Australian Labor Party. I will sit on the crossbench to represent WA.
SHOGUFA PAYMAN, FATIMA PAYMAN’S MOTHER: As a mother I really proud of her. She did something big for humanity.
JACOB STOKES, FATIMA PAYMAN’S HUSBAND: In the end I had to resign by choice and I just said, I can't keep these two worlds apart. But I'm proud of what I did and I don't regret it at all.
DAVID CROWE: CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NINE NEWSPAPERS: There's certainly been some damage to Labor because there's an entire community now that is disaffected with Labor over its stance on the Middle East. And it’s become a flashpoint that highlights a longer-term question about caucus loyalty, party loyalty on all sides really.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I feel like the Labor Party really needs to review their rules, because I don't think they're ready to have diversity with a voice.
ANNE ALY, FEDERAL LABOR MP: I disagree. It has been my experience that not only am I given a seat at the table, I am also given a voice.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: It's day one back here in Canberra. I've caught the red eye, so I'm a bit tired. Coming back as an Independent senator I don't know what to expect in terms of how my former colleagues are going to treat me. I'm not here to play games or be obstructive.
GLENN DRUERY, FATIMA PAYMAN’S CHIEF OF STAFF: You’ve come from a big corporation, you’re now self-employed.
DAVID CROWE: CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NINE NEWSPAPERS: Her first big call is a controversial one. She's hired Glenn Druery as her chief of staff. Now Glenn Druery is no friend of Labor. They'll be deeply suspicious of his motives and his agenda, and I think it will widen the gulf between Labor and Senator Payman.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: Two-minute statements for today, Wednesday and Thursday all locked in. Glenn has previous experience with independent senators and minor party senators, so he knows what he's doing.
GLENN DRUERY, FATIMA PAYMAN’S CHIEF OF STAFF: My plans are to work with the senator. I mean, I don't have any plans, per se, that are Glenn Druery's plans.
REPORTER: Are there plans to form a party?
GLENN DRUERY, FATIMA PAYMAN’S CHIEF OF STAFF: It's certainly a discussion we need to have. Yes, it's a discussion we must have.
FATIMA PAYMAN, INDEPENDENT SENATOR WA: I do not have any plans on forming a party, but I will not be joining the Greens and nor will I be forming a Muslim-only party. Something I've learnt about politics is you never commit definitively to anything, because it will come around and bite you in the backside.
When former Labor Senator Fatima Payman crossed the floor of the federal parliament eight weeks ago to vote against her own party, she saw it as an act of conscience.
Her colleagues considered it treachery.
So why did the first-time senator choose a path that had serious consequences not just for her and the Labor party but for her new husband?
Additional camera
Jack Stevenson
Tom Hancock
Rick Rifici
Cason Ho
Aran Hart
Nicholas Martyr
Billy Cooper
Sound
Christopher MacGregor
Related links
Feature article | Former Labor senator Fatima Payman defied her own party and crossed the floor. Her husband's career was collateral damage
Stream this episode on ABC iview