VIDEO: Nick Cave with Leigh Sales

INTRODUCTION LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: In all my years of interviewing I've never had so many colleagues wanting to come along to a recording as this one … with musician Nick Cave.

NICK CAVE: Is that you?

LEIGH SALES: Yep, that's you, that's me.

NICK CAVE: Is that your questions?

LEIGH SALES: It is, but I don't always use them. So it's my security.

NICK CAVE: If you start looking at them, it means it's going terribly, horribly wrong.

There's so many cameras.

LEIGH SALES: We'll wait for your coffee.

NICK CAVE: Do I need any … You'll be on hair patrol.

INTRODUCTION LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: He grew up in Wangaratta and after a wild youth left Australia for the UK 45 years ago.

Life always revolved around music with his band The Bad Seeds … but more recently, after the loss of two of his four sons, he's found new meaning.

NICK CAVE: For most of my life I was just sort of, in awe of my own genius, you know? And I, and I had an office, and I would sit there and write every day and, and whatever else happened in my life was, was peripheral and even annoyances because I was involved in the, in this great work that I was that, you know, and, and this just collapsed completely and I just sort of saw the folly of that. The kind of the disgraceful sort of self-indulgence of the whole thing. It just, look my priorities changed. You know, I still work all the time. I still go on tour, you know, I still piss everyone off because I'm making a new record, or I'm depressed because I can't write songs. The same things still apply. But that, that idea that art sort of trounces everything, it just doesn't apply to me anymore. I'm a father and I'm a husband and a kind of person of the world. These things are much more important to me than the concept of being an artist, let's say.

Title: Nick Cave… with Leigh Sales

(Red Right Hand, 1994)

Take a little walk to the edge of town, go across the tracks.

LEIGH SALES: We found when we were looking at all of the archive an old clip of you when you were 28.

(Krista Krull 'Off Air' 1985)

Reporter: What do you think you'll be doing when you're 56?

Nick: I can't really see myself doing tours of Australia particularly, and I would hope that I wasn't involved in music by then. I've always said to myself, that I would, bow out of it, once I became obvious to me that I was making inferior music to what I'd made before.

(Song: The Weeping Song, 1993)

LEIGH SALES: How unexpected has it been to find yourself now in your 60s, still making music, being creative, doing new stuff?

NICK CAVE: It's difficult to say because I'm here, I am that age so I think my younger self would be impressed in that I've just sort of hung around.

(Song: The Weeping Song)

This is the weeping song, a song in which to weep.

LEIGH SALES: One of the things that's really striking about your career and about the fans is that you have continued to be really innovative. A lot of people in creative life have a fruitful period when they're young, whereas you've continued innovating, being creative, and the fans have gone with you on that. It's not like they're sitting there fidgeting, just waiting for you to play Red Right Hand.

NICK CAVE: No. Yeah, it's been a slow, late developer. (smiles) No, but I mean, I think a relationship is developed between me and my fans. That's developed together.

(Mutiny in Heaven documentary)

Well, you'll know next time not to come up the front when we play won't you. The front row is not for the fragile my dear.

NICK CAVE: It was initially, you know, 40 years ago, an adversarial relationship with my audience. It was, um. You know, you went to sort of war with the crowd in some kind of way. And over the years it's just sort of developed into something that's the opposite of that. And, and is really the sort of, uh, outpouring and incoming of love between within the audience and the people on stage. And that seems to, to really work sometimes, you know.

I've just been talking, you know, reassessing, with my team, my manager and all of this sort of stuff what exactly is Nick Cave? We've been doing that recently because we have a new album coming out, a new Bad Seeds album. That's always been the primary flagship of everything, but something like the Red Hand Files has just grown in importance. It's grown in importance to the way I am and the way that I live my life and the way I communicate with my audience and so forth. And that's interesting. It's interesting that the actual primary function of what I do artistically or creatively shifts too, to some degree.

LEIGH SALES: For people who don't know the Red Hand Files is, it started as kind of like an 'ask me anything' where people would write to you and ask you questions that you would answer.

(This Much I Know To Be True – doco)

There are thousands of questions here. Thousands and thousands. There's 38,065 questions.

My brother David died two years ago he was just 24 and I was 19. It feels like everyone is moving on and forgetting him and I'm afraid of letting go of my anger. What if I don't know who I am without it? For so long has my grief been an inextricable part of me -Alison.

Billy from Scotland: my wife has thrown me out, I've lost my job, all within a week, suicidal thoughts in abundance. How does one handle having seemingly no control over ones life. This is a really beautiful question too.

LEIGH SALES: As you say, it's become very important to you. Why do you think it's become so important?

NICK CAVE: You know, it's, it's a completely unique thing. For me personally, I mean, it came out of, it sort of grew out of sort of personal tragedy that happened within my family.

(ABC News 16 July, 2015)

The 15-year-old son of Australian rock musician Nick Cave has died after falling from a cliff on the South Coast of England. Police in the UK say Arthur Cave was found with life threatening injuries at the bottom of the Cliff. He was flown to a hospital in Brighton where he later died.

NICK CAVE: The Red Hand Files was people writing and saying, look, this has happened to me, this is what's going to happen to you. You know, expect this. It wasn't just, it wasn't just people being sympathetic. It was people, who'd had the same thing or similar things happen to them. But, but it was also a kind of lifeline for me that sort of reached out and collected up these people. It's something that's just allowed me to remain open to the world rather than shut down.

(Song: I Need You, 2016)

I will miss you when you're gone. I'll miss you when you're gone away forever.

NICK CAVE: Now I get, I get hundreds and hundreds of letters a week, all of which I read and a great deal of them are to do with, with grief and personal problems.

(Song: I Need You)

Just breathe, just breathe, just breathe.

NICK CAVE: It's quite difficult to talk about this, but I, but I read a letter that comes in from someone talking about the fact that they're, sorry, this is quite actually quite difficult to talk about. Talking about the fact that their husband's died right. And you're reading it and you realise the husbands died 15 years ago or something like that right, and this sort of sell by date has happened with grief and they've, everyone's gone, look, it's time to move on and all of this sort of stuff and it's just not it's not like that. That's not the way things seem to work as far as I can see. And so, there's a great beauty in, in, in the Red Hand Files that's, you know, it's an extreme privilege to be receiving these letters from people. And it, it is this bizarre sort of opportunity for people to indulge to some degree in, in their grief around things.

LEIGH SALES: How does grief feel after a number of years versus in the immediate aftermath. What does grief feel like several years on, as opposed to when you're in the absolute maelstrom of it straight away?

NICK CAVE: You get practiced at it. That's a terrifying aspect. Today is the anniversary of Jethro's death. The, my second son who died.

(Channel 7 News, 2022)

Breaking news now, the eldest son of Australian singer Nick Cave has died, aged 31.

NICK CAVE: I had an understanding of the process because I'd been through it already. There is the initial cataclysmic event that we eventually absorb or rearrange ourselves so that we become creatures of loss as we get older, that this is part of our fundamental fabric of what we are as human beings. We are things of loss. And this is a, is not a tragic element to, to our lives, but rather a deepening element. And that brings incredible meaning into our life. In general, I think we've become, our lives collect meaning from these sorts of things.

LEIGH SALES: I'm sorry that this interview has landed on the anniversary of your son's death.

NICK CAVE: Okay, It's, it's odd that we're jumping straight into this, too.

LEIGH SALES: Yeah, I'm sorry.

NICK CAVE: Um. No, it's not your fault.

LEIGH SALES: I'm happy to follow where you want to go. But please, if I ask anything that oversteps the line.

NICK CAVE: No, no, it's not that. It's, for me, when I do interviews, it just quickly, it just very quickly lands back at this place.

LEIGH SALES: And that's fine Nick because it's obviously very present with you, all the time. When you've gone through real pain, as you have, it's like you get this understanding that all of the order in the world can just be over like that. How does one live one's life once that has become real to you?

NICK CAVE: This is really, this is quite a, quite a complicated thing. But the sort of void that was left, there was a kind of rushing in of meaning that came into that void in all sorts of different ways. That allowed me to see the world in a different way. Allowed me to be much more, basically compassionate towards the human predicament. Less embittered. It had, it had, was kind of counterfactual response, in fact, rather than made me bitter it, it, it did the opposite in some way. It made me much more connected to people in general.

(Song: Into My Arms, 1997)

I don't believe in an interventionist God.

NICK CAVE: I've always had a religious temperament, even as a child. But no need for it. I was sort of drug addicted for a for a couple of decades, and had a great interest in this sort of stuff, but no need for it. And I think after Arthur died, not immediately, but, you know, it's been quite a while now, but rather than feeling anger towards that sort of stuff or rejecting that sort of stuff, I felt a slow movement towards a religious life that I've found extremely helpful. And kind of a, kind of, kind of widening thing that's happened in my life.

(Song: Into My Arms, 1997)

Into my arms oh Lord, into my arms.

LEIGH SALES: Do you feel sitting here today, like, does that feel like the same person to you, the guy that was, say, on the streets of New York trying to score 25 years ago?

NICK CAVE: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I don't, I don't do, I don't do that anymore. Um, but I recognise the impulse and I don't, I don't, I don't have, this sort of desire to, to use drugs and drink and stuff. I don't struggle with that at all. I mean, those sorts of things are around me all the time. I still live in a rock and roll world, but I'm not tempted to return to that way of life, but I still recognise it and identify with it.

LEIGH SALES: This is a very personal question so tell me to sod off if you don't want to answer it.

NICK CAVE: Unlike these other ones.

LEIGH SALES: In the aftermath of when such terrible things happen to you in the death of Arthur and so on and then Jethro. Why did drugs not seem like, well, that would be just a relief or it'd be oblivion, or it'd be something to turn to?

NICK CAVE: You know, it didn't occur to me. You know it's not, it's not a relief. I know that. It doesn't fix anything, but mostly I had responsibilities to other people. It's not, it wasn't just me. It wasn't just about me. It was an honouring of the people that had actually died, for one thing. And, and that I had, had my wife to look after who was going through, who was going through, you know, like, mothers who've lost children go through something different. It's a different thing than, than a, a father that's lost a child. It's a different calibre of suffering. That's, you know, it's a, it's a sort of hell unto itself. And the idea that I would go off and become a junkie again or, or whatever is, it was clearly a bad idea. You know, and, and there were the other children, too, you know, so it just wasn't something that crossed my mind.

(Documentary: One More Time With Feeling)

Oh my god! Hey. Look at you. I've got brown hair. You been alright? What are you doing? Nothing. Oh God.

NICK CAVE: I'm just very, very lucky to be married to someone that I am, remain completely in love with. You know, and, and remains an enormous source of inspiration to me. I'm awed by her.

(Documentary: One More Time With Feeling)

Susie: After Arthur died, I found this in storage, and I just couldn't believe it when I saw it cos it's a painting he did when he was five or something like that. It's of the windmill and it's yeah, just where he died.

NICK CAVE: To see her completely incapacitated, um, bedridden, you know, in a darkened room in a tomb of her own I would say into someone that that that just eventually got out of bed and went to work and to sort of rise out of it in some way I'm forever in, in awe of. So, there's that. We have a relationship that is sort of bound together by both love and like catastrophe. And that once again adds layers of meaning to, to our life that together that I don't think were probably there to begin with.

(Documentary: One More Time With Feeling)

Susie: I try to just keep moving forward. You know since everything that happened, my work became something different, you know. Before it was something I was enjoying and loving it but then it became a real necessity, I really had to work because it was the only thing that would take my mind off everything.

LEIGH SALES: Sometimes I think in life there's a temptation to see it as linear, that things you're happy and then you're sad and so on. But obviously joy and sorrow all kind of coexist all the time. And while you're obviously carrying grief with you all the time, you're also now a grandfather.

NICK CAVE: Yeah, exactly. It's just been the most amazing experience. I, I wasn't quite prepared for how, how much it would affect me. This little guy, his name's Roman, Roman Cave, is such a gorgeous looking little creature it's extraordinary. It's made me extraordinarily, extraordinarily happy.

(Live recording in Sydney from fan, 2024)

Nick Cave: I'm a grandfather so. Yeah! It feels pretty good.

LEIGH SALES: What kind of grandfather would you like to be, what's your vibe?

NICK CAVE: I'm looking forward to being the sort of grandfather that sort of sits in the armchair that says inappropriate things and has a terrible influence over everybody and, but that the child secretly loves.

(Excerpt from Nanni Jacobson 'Straight To You' 1997)

I'm a good dad. I have quite a gift with children in general, I think. I think I've always been quite good with kids and. Um, I find to be. I find being a father really easy. I mean, I, uh, I meet other fathers and other parents and, and they seem, they seem to be kind of exhausted by the whole whole thing, and I don't, I find it really energising and very easy thing to do, to be a father.

(Documentary: This Much I Know To Be True)

I'm talking to Earl on the phone. Oh, let's go say hi to Earl. You're being filmed now so you better hide. No don't hide Early! No, I'm not hiding, I'm right here. I'll call you later dad. you ok, you ok there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep, see ya. Kiss.

LEIGH SALES: In your new album the opening verse of the first song is about a man seeing a woman by a lake, and he talks about the golden light. Made me wonder, have you…

NICK CAVE: Have you heard the record?

LEIGH SALES: Yeah.

NICK CAVE: Oh, the whole thing?

LEIGH SALES: Yeah.

NICK CAVE: Oh, yeah.

LEIGH SALES: It's great. I really enjoyed it.

NICK CAVE: It's not bad eh.

LEIGH SALES: In those lyrics, um, just the use of the word lake made me think of English countryside. But then golden light made me think of like the light in Australia at times. Does Australian imagery, even though you haven't lived here for a long time, still seep through into your work, do you think?

NICK CAVE: Yeah, it does, I'd say so. I mean, it always has.

(Song: Muddy Water, 2009)

Mary, grab the baby, the river's rising.

NICK CAVE: I've always sort of thought of my songs as Australian.

(Song: Muddy Water, 2009)

Muddy waters taking back the land.

NICK CAVE: The particular sort of locus of my childhood was the river, um, where we used to hang out as, as kids on our bikes. And there's, in Wangaratta, and there's a railway bridge that goes over that. And I often think about that place. It appears in a lot of songs.

(Song: Muddy Water, 2009)

Take the child, the river's rising.

LEIGH SALES: Have you been back to the river and the railway?

NICK CAVE: Yeah, I actually did. I don't know how long ago it was. I've said over the past, as a young person, terrible things about Wangaratta, which as a, as now that I've grown up a bit, I kind of regret, um, but it was, it was, it was fun to go back there and to stand on a stage and sort of apologise to, to Australia, to, you know, the Australian police force, everyone else that I've sort of, um, haven't had kind things to say about and it was, it was quite a beautiful thing.

LEIGH SALES: And what was their reaction to that that?

NICK CAVE: They were fine about it.

(Song: Muddy Water)

Lord these muddy waters taking back my home.

NICK CAVE: I haven't lived here for over 45 years or something like that, but I get at times a great nostalgia for Australia. Things fall away when I get back to Australia, and I feel relief, like I'm back in the place that I should be. I love Australian people, and I understand the people and stuff like that.

LEIGH SALES: Your collaboration with Kylie Minogue, how did it come about?

NICK CAVE: Well, I was just a fan and I always sort of watched her and as a sort of pop icon and kind of wished at some point she just sort of slows stuff down a little bit. And I had this song that was a duet and I just felt, wow imagine if I sang that with Kylie Minogue.

(Big Day Out, 1996)

Hello Kylie, how are you today?

(Kylie Minogue on ABC)

I was a bit, duh, really naive and didn't know about the legend of Nick Cave and said, oh, that's really nice.

(Big Day Out, 1996)

Kylie Minogue: How are you?

Nick Cave: I'm a hell of a lot better for seeing you.

(Song: Where The Wild Roses Grow, 1995)

They call me the wild rose. But my name was Elisa Day.

NICK CAVE: For her to do it required something of her.

On the third day they took me to the river, he showed me the roses and we kissed.

NICK CAVE: It was, I think, hugely controversial within her own management. They're like, 'You don't want to be doing a record with this guy'. You know, I wasn't in remotely in showroom condition at the time.

(1997 interview with Nanni Jacobson)

Do you actually mind taking your glasses off?

NICK CAVE: And so, it was something for her to, to, to sort of step into this, you know, male drug addicted world, which she did, to sing this song as, and she just was showed extraordinary courage, I think, to do that. You know I think most people just thought it was beautiful and bizarre and, and liked it. Maybe there were, were some people who, who just like, what are you doing with Kylie Minogue or whatever? I don't know. But I tell you who objected most was the Kylie Minogue fans.

(1997 interview with Nanni Jacobson)

A lot of people would have bought the album on the strength of the Kylie song. And the album isn't really like that at all. And so, there was a certain kind of satisfaction about, about knowing that you could get, that we could get our records into, into the kind of living rooms of people that where they would normally, where they don't really belong.

(Wild God Trailer, 2024)

Let's see what happens.

LEIGH SALES: Wild God's your 18th album with the Bad Seeds. What is it like to be in a band for, for such a long period of time?

NICK CAVE: Well, I have a lot of pride in the Bad Seeds, and I have a lot of pride that we're still around.

(Wild God Trailer, 2024)

Wait till it comes in on ahhh.

NICK CAVE: I think all of the Bad Seeds pretty much feel the same way that very often, if you're in a band, it's like a kind of marriage or something like that that becomes stuck. And I've tended to move people around. People have come, people have gone. The Bad Seeds remain a fluid thing. There's an implicit understanding within the Bad Seeds that the music will always be different. And so, no one's sitting back, uh, complacent within, within the group. And that just keeps the music inventive and going in different places.

(Wild God Trailer, 2024)

Bring your spirit down. I don't like to write songs. It's the last thing I want to do because it's, it's difficult to write songs and it really requires something of you. And so, I set a date, um, and think, all right, I've got to make a new record. This this one was January, the first of last year. I sat down. I don't haven't written a song in years, um, and start to put together ideas for a record.

I'm always aware that the next record, if it's any good, it's going to lose some fans. But I don't know, I just feel like I still got things to say and I feel energised about things and on it goes (laughs).

(Song: The Ship Song, 1990)

Come sail your ships around me. And burn your bridges down. We make a little history, baby. Every time you come around.