Talk:Legazpi

The existence of Z in Tagalog

@Ysrael214, @TagaSanPedroAko, @Mlgc1998 Do you guys think the phoneme /z/ is used in Tagalog? Let's say someone speaking Manila Tagalog, I just feel that it seems uncommon to me, if ever used. Maybe you guys can think of examples where /z/ would be natural for a Manila Tagalog speaker. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:02, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I hear this just days back when I order KFC Zinger. It's uncommon because words with z are also uncommon in Tagalog. Though that's my personal experience. Ysrael214 (talk) 03:34, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser But yea, for Legazpi, it doesn't sound right. Ysrael214 (talk) 03:35, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Late comer, but I agree we should do away with Z (transcribing it to /s/). Filipinos generally don't distinguish between Z and S, as like Spanish speakers outside Spain don't distinguish S from Z and C before E and I. Also see Tagalog phonological inventories at Phoible which all don't have /z/; one has /v/, which we can keep at least, and most also have /f/. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 07:56, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser it's definitely a non-native sort of phoneme. maybe it's kinda like the case with F, where many people know how Z is supposed to sound but behaviorally, it just becomes S most of the time. I just see Z being used in Tagalog mostly from names, whether given name, surname (i.e. Zamora, Zafra, Zulueta, Zubiri, Zuñiga, Zaragoza, etc), placename (i.e. Zambales, Zamboanga, Zimbabwe, etc), and a few borrowed or taglish nouns (i.e. zarzuela, zinc, zone, zip code, etc), all usually comes from Spanish and English. most in practice, when said by Tagalog speakers, mostly becomes S, but maybe when people try to intentionally pronounce Z, good amount of people can do it, just often defaults back to S kind of sound. For Legazpi, I guess it's rare for me to hear someone intentionally pronouncing the Z in the middle there, usually people I hear say it with S if Z isn't prominent enough in the word, like if not at the start of the word. Mlgc1998 (talk) 07:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998, Ysrael214: Yeah, you guys make good points. It seems like in Manila Tagalog, it's more naturally pronounced as /z/ if the Z appears at the start of the word like "Zubiri", "Zamora", "Zambales", "Zamboanga". What about the end of the word? Like "Martinez", "Lopez", "Paz", "Santa Cruz", do you think it feels natural for people to pronounce the Z there? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:37, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser @Mlgc1998 Maybe start of a syllable? Luzon and Quezon I hear with /z/. Then again santacruzan isn't. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:40, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser hmm it's definitely strange which part of the words tend to have people usually pronouncing the Z. maybe, it really just varies per certain word, like maybe the very old established historical words like Santa Cruz, Legazpi, Luzon, Quezon, etc. the S pronunciation is a little more accepted cuz of how long and widespread they've been used, but with less popular, less widespread proper nouns, people try to maintain the Z sound as the more proper way to say it, but the line from there to older more established words is blurry like the case with Luzon, Quezon, Martinez, Lopez, where people try to more properly say them with Z sound but more relaxed pronunciation occasionally allows S sound. hmmm Then again, for many of these words where S is also sometimes acceptable or behaviorally done might point back to each of their etymologies where the source language where it was ultimately borrowed from also was also phonologically acceptable for it to have turned out into S, like Spanish cruz with Latin American reading /ˈkɾus/ is from Latin crux /krʊks̠/, Spanish Legazpi with Latin American reading /leˈɣ̞as.pi/ is from Basque Legazpi /le̞.ɣ̞as̻.pi/, Latin American Spanish Luzón /luˈsõn/ ultimately comes from Tagalog lusong /lʊˈsoŋ/, and the last syllable of Spanish Quezon would have come from Hokkien 孫／孙 (sun) /sun/. The surnames ending in Spanish -ez seems to also sometimes alternatively use -es like Portuguese -es. For Spanish paz seems to come from Latin pax /päːks̠/, but this is similar to how cruz came to be but I guess maybe Tagalog Santa Cruz is more fine with it cuz of how far back it's been used, enough Tagalog santakrusan exists or Paz being said with an S could just be easily misconstrued with English pass. hmmm The acceptability of an S sound for loanwords with Z among speakers probably points as well to the phonology of ph spanish speakers back then, like which words for them before were also acceptable with Z to S, like some speakers were likely leaning more on phonology coming from Latin America and those that leaned more on those from Spain. Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:09, 17 July 2023 (UTC)