Talk:dangal
Latest comment: 19 days ago by 103.56.148.45 in topic Malay borrowing
Malay borrowing
Hello, @Ysrael214. Are you sure it's not a Malay loanword? Tagalog has a long history of borrowing from Indonesia's ancient languages such as Javanese and Malay. The Javanese and Malay loanwords in Tagalog usually show patterns that are distinct from native words that follow regular sound changes from earlier proto-form. Dangal has similar meaning with Cebuano and Hiligaynon dungog, which is inherited from Proto-Austronesian *dəŋəʀ. @Austronesier @TagaSanPedroAko What do you think? 103.56.148.45 01:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- @103.56.148.45, How do I reply to an IP lol. Anyway, I'm aware of the e > a, r > l correspondence with Malay loanwords to Tagalog. However, it does not automatically mean that the pattern matched that it is true. While, ACD acknowledged this: (https://acd.clld.org/cognatesets/30692#3/-9.09/151.03) "Other meanings that derive from the primary notion of hearing are ‘to obey, heed’, and ‘fame, reputation; famous’ (= ‘heard about, bruited about’)." and David Zorc (linguist) gave a hint that it COULD BE from *dengeR, he linked it as a separate Southern Luzon axis *dangal instead. (https://zorc.net/RDZorc/publications/041=CEDOF%233(1982).pdf) Also, the fame, honor, dignity of *dengeR meaning only exists not in Malay language but only in Visayan language in the Philippines, not widespread, and could just be a chance resemblance. Hence, we still aren't certain that it is indeed from Malay and the burden of proof should be on you to prove this. Anyway should other editors, what do you think? @Austronesier @TagaSanPedroAko Should we make it a loan from Malay or just have comparison and let users decide? 𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 05:18, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- I fully agree with @Ysrael214's comment. If it is a loanword from Malay, it indeed has the expected outcome. Maybe the late Old Malay variety that was the source of borrowing into Tagalog had the same kind of colexification of 'hear' and 'reputation' as found in Bisayan languages. But this is entirely hypothetical as I am not aware of modern Malay varieties that colexify 'hear' and 'reputation'. There are in fact cases where a borrowing into Tagalog preseves a Malay word that doesn't exist anymore, such paraluman from unattested **pejaruman (jarum with circumfix pe- -an); the latter has been replaced in modern Malay varieties with the etymologically identical Javanese word pedoman. The line of evidence for **pejaruman 'compass' is much less speculative though than in the case of dengar with the meaning **'reputation'. Should we include the latter here? We have Potet's absurd inversion of borrowing in the etymology for abaka and also mention the long discarded connection to Sanskrit लिक्षा (likṣā) in the etymology of lisa, so we might as well include a meaningful speculation by Zorc, of course properly flagged as such. –Austronesier (talk) 07:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Austronesier @Ysrael214 How would you explain the semantic change in Tagalog bunyi (“fame; renown; great honor”) which is said to be borrowed from Malay bunyi (“sound”)? Bunyi in Malay and its varieties doesn't mean anything other that the sound of something or the cry of animals. There are no known modern Malay varieties that colexify 'sound' and 'fame'/'honor', yet it's said to be the etymological source of Tagalog bunyi. As for the case of paraluman, the Tagalogs probably learned the word from the Javanese merchants in Luzon. It's maybe borrowed from the Old Malay calque of Old Javanese padoman, since the word **pejaruman has never existed in Malay. 103.56.148.45 05:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I fully agree with @Ysrael214's comment. If it is a loanword from Malay, it indeed has the expected outcome. Maybe the late Old Malay variety that was the source of borrowing into Tagalog had the same kind of colexification of 'hear' and 'reputation' as found in Bisayan languages. But this is entirely hypothetical as I am not aware of modern Malay varieties that colexify 'hear' and 'reputation'. There are in fact cases where a borrowing into Tagalog preseves a Malay word that doesn't exist anymore, such paraluman from unattested **pejaruman (jarum with circumfix pe- -an); the latter has been replaced in modern Malay varieties with the etymologically identical Javanese word pedoman. The line of evidence for **pejaruman 'compass' is much less speculative though than in the case of dengar with the meaning **'reputation'. Should we include the latter here? We have Potet's absurd inversion of borrowing in the etymology for abaka and also mention the long discarded connection to Sanskrit लिक्षा (likṣā) in the etymology of lisa, so we might as well include a meaningful speculation by Zorc, of course properly flagged as such. –Austronesier (talk) 07:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)