User talk:AleksiB 1945
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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Apisite (talk) 09:51, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Apisite, Thanks! ive been editing wiki for quite some time now AleksiB 1945 (talk) 09:54, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Malayalam and GoateeBoi
GoateeBoi (talk • contribs) has an interest in adding Malayalam words. Do you have that interest also? --Apisite (talk) 09:52, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Apisite, I can add Mal words if you want but what kinds of words specifically? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 09:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- At least words like സഭ (as in സര്വശക്തനായ ദൈവത്തിന്റെ സഭ, or The Church of Almighty God), or any words you deem necessary to add. --Apisite (talk) 09:59, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Also, there's Wiktionary:Requested entries (Malayalam). --Apisite (talk) 10:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Add the requested entries for Malayalam to your watchlist. --Apisite (talk) 11:12, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Malayalam
I've noticed a few problems in some entries you've created...For one, you defined വഞ്ചിക്കുക as "to cheat", but the entry says it's a noun. Surely it's a verb, right? Also, Wiktionary entry titles are case sensitive and pretty much all nonproper nouns should have a lowercase initial letter. Finally, you created an entry recently which you defined as meaning "enough", but again you entered it as a noun. "Enough" is not a noun except in a rare sense which I doubt you meant, so that entry needs to be fixed too. User: The Ice Mage talk to meh 22:06, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- You're still making the same mistakes as in the past. You need to be more careful with spelling words in definitions correctly, capitalising words when appropriate, and putting the correct part of speech. For example, you defined കൊച്ചു as an adjective, but you have called it a noun. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:44, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Mass-creation of Sanskrit entries
Please don't mass-create Sanskrit entries. They are messed up and have incorrect formatting. Thanks for understanding. —Svārtava2 • 05:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Chillu
Hi, the claim [1][2], "In Malayalam, words can only end with [m] [n] [ɳ] [r] [l] and [ɭ]" is not true. I think you missed some words. It just never occur as the first letter of any Malayalam word.
By the way, I am also a Malayalam native speaker. Nice to meet you! Vis M (talk) 19:58, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
You're making POS-related mistakes again...you say this is a noun, but the definition, "obsolete", is an adjective or, perhaps more rarely, a verb. So, which is it? 37.110.218.43 13:48, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
- Seems to be fixed now :) Prahlad balaji (talk) 18:08, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Translating The Little Lotus Story
Would you like this new fairy tale translated into Malayalam? --Apisite (talk) 11:55, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Translate it to wiktionary? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:13, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- If you would like to help translate it, then it says on the website: For any issues concerning cooperation or usage of materials from this site, write to [email protected] --Apisite (talk) 14:22, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
I created the bare minimum to get this working, but that's all I can do without learning Tamil. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Chuck Entz I'm working on it. Prahlad balaji (talk) 19:08, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
ഇംഗ്ലീഷ് (iṅglīṣŭ)
This entry had two parts of speech, proper noun and (probably mistakenly) noun— I've changed the latter to adjective. Please verify the change. Thanks. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 22:18, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
ലളിതം
Hi, is ലളിതം (laḷitaṁ) a noun or adjective? Prahlad balaji (talk) 16:55, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Prahlad balaji yes an adjective it was a typo AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:15, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- OK, thank you! Prahlad balaji (talk) 19:35, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
I noticed that "The 16th letter of the Tamil alphabet, called ஜ (ja). Represents voiced postalveolar affricate: [d͡ʒ]. Transliterated as j." was changed to just "The fourth consonant in Tamil." As I added in hidden text, I only found sources that contradicts this. However, I literally started learning Tamil 9 days ago and am thus unsure how to correct the page or if the page needs correction. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- @AleksiB 1945:@DerekWinters:@Emmanuel Asbon:@Goldenbrook:@Hk5183:@Info-farmer:@NeṭuMāran:@Prahlad balaji:@Zovlon:@エリック・キィ:Calling for attention to this. By the way, ஞ is currently listed as the fifth consonant, ட the sixth, ண the seventh, and த the eighth. What I have found contradicts this but I would like to ask for verification of my sources found on ஜ's hidden text. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:51, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Fredrick Campbell Hi. Most Brahmic scripts list consonants by the way they are pronounced, from frontmost to backmost in your mouth. E.g. 'க (ka)' (frontmost) to 'ஹ (ha)' (backmost). As 'ஜ (ja)' is near the front of the mouth, it would be at the beginning of the alphabet; therefore, the assertion that it is in 4th position would be technically correct.
- However, since 'ஜ (ja)' is mostly only ever used in loanwords, it is usually placed at the end of the alphabet with other consonants like 'ஹ (ha)', 'ஷ (ṣa)', 'ஶ (śa)', 'ஸ (sa)', etc. in contrast to the letters that are used in native words. Prahlad balaji (talk) 13:18, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Fredrick Campbell Hi, I've only ever seen this type of placement in online sources alone. Maybe it is like that to keep it identical with other Indic scripts for quick learning, since speakers of other Indian languages are more familiar with that style of arrangement. But, to this day, the way it's taught in schools and strictly practiced by Tamil speakers looks like this,
- உயிரெழுத்துக்கள் (uyireḻuttukkaḷ, “vowels or soul letters”): அ, ஆ, இ, ஈ, உ, ஊ, எ, ஏ, ஐ, ஒ, ஓ, ஐ (a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, e, ē, ai, o, ō, ai)
- ------
- ஆய்த எழுத்து (āyta eḻuttu): ஃ (this is a special letter which in Old/Middle Tamil was used inbetween short vowels and hard consonants, but in modern Tamil, it is used as a prefix combined with specific consonants to make, f(ஃப), z(ஃஜ), kh(ஃக) sounds. On its own, it sounds like 'ugh' or 'ah')
- ------
- மெய்யெழுத்துக்கள் (meyyeḻuttukkaḷ, “consonants or body letters”): க், ங், ச், ஞ், ட், ண், த், ந், ப், ம், ய், ர், ல், வ், ழ், ள், ற், ன் (k, ṅ, c, ñ, ṭ, ṇ, t, n, p, m, y, r, l, v, ḻ, ḷ, ṟ, ṉ)
- ------
- உயிர்மெய் எழுத்துக்கள் (uyirmey eḻuttukkaḷ, “alphasyllabic letters or living letters”) க, ங, ச, ஞ, ட, ண, த, ந, ப, ம, ய, ர, ல, வ, ழ, ள, ற, ன (ka, ṅa, ca, ña, ṭa, ṇa, ta, na, pa, ma, ya, ra, la, va, ḻa, ḷa, ṟa, ṉa)
- ------
- வடமொழி எழுத்துக்கள் (vaṭamoḻi eḻuttukkaḷ, “letters from the northern tongue”): ஷ, ஶ, ஸ, ஜ, ஹ, க்ஷ (ṣa, śa, sa, ja, ha, kṣa) (native Tamil words do not need these letters, and since all these letters are a later addition, they're always placed in a seperate category.)
- --
- Unlike other indic scripts, Tamil consonants doesn't inherently have the 'a' vowel sound in them. This is how letters are categorised in Tamil and this is how it's taught in every institution that teaches Tamil. And this is how I was taught in my school. Also, if someone asks a Tamil person how many letters are there in Tamil, their reply would be 247 (that is with all the vowels, consonants and the alphasyllabic letters including and excluding the northern letters) and some people don't even know what northern letters are, that is because people simply replace these sounds with the closest native sounds, ex: ச replaces ஷ ஶ ஸ ஜ and க replaces ஹ. I hope this clarifies your doubt regarding the placement of ஜ. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 14:50, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Prahlad balaji:@Emmanuel Asbon: Thank you. I'm not too sure how to edit it so that it reflects the reality more accurately, but I'm considering. "One of the letters in the வடமொழி எழுத்துக்கள் (vaṭamoḻi eḻuttukkaḷ, “letters from the northern tongue”)." If this is fine, I would start to edit some of the letters in the series over the next few days. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Fredrick Campbell fine with me. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 04:13, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Sure! I think that would be a great idea, as long as you give a little explanation to people not familiar to it. Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:23, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Prahlad balaji:@Emmanuel Asbon: I'm considering changing "letters" to "Tamil consonants" as that is how Wikipedia's page on Tamil Script and suganthinadar.wordpress.com phrases it. I plan on doing but I may take some time. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:35, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Fredrick Campbell I think that would be fine, as long as you don't do the aytam and vowels. Prahlad balaji (talk) 16:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Fredrick Campbell hi, that's fine. I simply translated what it meant. You can change it to make it more relevant for English. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Prahlad balaji:@Emmanuel Asbon: I'm considering changing "letters" to "Tamil consonants" as that is how Wikipedia's page on Tamil Script and suganthinadar.wordpress.com phrases it. I plan on doing but I may take some time. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:35, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Prahlad balaji:@Emmanuel Asbon: Thank you. I'm not too sure how to edit it so that it reflects the reality more accurately, but I'm considering. "One of the letters in the வடமொழி எழுத்துக்கள் (vaṭamoḻi eḻuttukkaḷ, “letters from the northern tongue”)." If this is fine, I would start to edit some of the letters in the series over the next few days. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Malayalam suffixes
Hi. Actually, I am not sure how to handle suffixes for Malayalam. While definitions in entries for -ക്കുക and -അം are correct, I don't know what should be the proper representation of the suffix. -ഉക is a more accurate suffix for present tense of verb (as in ചാടുക, പാടുക, etc.)
As there are several important suffixes and they play a vital role in Malayalam grammar, I think we should represent them in a standard format. I will check about it and inform you. Thank you. Vis M (talk) 04:25, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Vis M, should it be listed under alternative forms? there is also -വുക alternating with -കുക like in പോകുക~പോവുക AleksiB 1945 (talk) 08:58, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Do not create redirects
Hi, see "Wiktionary:Redirections" for acceptable uses of redirects. Unlike Wikipedia, Wiktionary do not use redirects for synonyms, misspellings or root forms of lemmas. e.g., മേഘ should not be redirected to മേഘം. For other policies and guidelines, you can check out "Category:Wiktionary policies". Thank you. Vis M (talk) 06:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Adjective suffixes
Regarding this, the endings are correct, but I am not sure how to proceed with them. I think we have to look more deeply about it and find what the standard form for representing Malayalam adjective formation is. See also the participial adjective of English. Thanks. Vis M (talk) 14:16, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Vis_M, where can you check words and suffixes? and in [3] how do search the word? and there are some suffixes for which i am not sure of the meaning like -വ് as in pithaavu raajaavu and nilaavu, i once heard its epenthesis but if it was it wouldnt be in multiple words in a uniform way right, another version of -പ്പ് like in thanuppu? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:27, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Sanskrit entries
Please stop hastily creating Sanskrit entries without checking. There are multiple good sources so please do your research and don't feel the need to guess. Best -- Prahlad balaji (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
അച്ചായൻ
Regarding അച്ചായൻ, check out w:ml:അച്ചായൻ article on Malayalam Wikipedia. It is used to refer to Syrian Christian men of Kerala. Same with ഇച്ചായൻ (ml:ഇച്ചായൻ). Thanks. Vis M (talk) 10:26, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
About ஃ
Hi, the letter ஃ is been in use since the time of Old Tamil, but it was not called aytam then, it was known as mupparpulli meaning 'three dots.' It is mentioned as part of the Tamil alphabet in Tolkappiyam which is the oldest known Tamil grammar book till date. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 16:01, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Emmanuel Asbon, yea but in modern Tamil its only used to write foreign sounds like ஃப (fa) right? I meant the old Tamil way of using it between a vowel and a consonant like in பஃது (paḥtu) was it used like that in Middle Tamil? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- The old usage is still practiced, not so prevalent you could say. Words like அஃது (aḥtu), இஃது (iḥtu), எஃது (eḥtu) are still used in formal and literary Tamil. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 11:21, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, I removed ['t͡ɕ'] = 't͡ɕː', from ta-IPA module, since it's producing /t͡ɕuːɾijaɡaːn̪d̪i/, [t͡ɕuːɾijɐɡɑːn̪d̪i] instead of /t͡ɕuːɾijaɡaːn̪d̪i/, [suːɾijɐɡɑːn̪d̪i]. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 11:23, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Emmanuel Asbon, I meant to make ச்ச as [t͡ɕː] because it was showing as [s:] before but the code got messed up (iirc even in spoken Tamil ச்ச doesnt become [s:] right?) AleksiB 1945 (talk) 11:43, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, that's correct. ஸ்ஸ produces /s:/ sound and ச்ச produces /t͡ɕː/. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 13:31, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- @AleksiB 1945 sorry, my bad. I tagged you in an edit by mistake. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 20:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Regarding -கை
Hi, as far as I know, there is no such suffix as கை in Tamil. Even in the words where this letter is present, it is not necessarily a suffix, you can simply assume that it gives a complete form to the word, which would otherwise sound incomplete or dangling.
To give it with an example, take a look at this word: எண்ணு (eṇṇu, “to think, count, recollect”) ⬇️ எண்ணி (eṇṇi), translates to 'think and' or 'count and.' ⬇️ எண்ணிக்கை (eṇṇikkai), translates to 'count, estimation.' Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 08:51, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
FYI, I did search further but I don't find anything convincing because I don't know the languages. Mayrhofer for one does mention a possible influence from Dravidian. I am not sure if that makes for a reliable reference, because he presents the idea as someone else's. He himself prefers contraction from वि- and some verbal root, which was maybe contaminated with Dravidian. That seems possible if the word is not vedic, attested as early as 5th century AD epic poetry.
I can get you a copy of Mayrhofer's entry and another dictionary if you need it. ApisAzuli (talk) 11:02, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
Redirecting chillu
Hello. Please do not create hard redirects like the one you placed at chillu. Malayalam does not use the Latin script, and it adds confusion for anyone trying to look up the word chillu as it is used in English. Theknightwho (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
Redirecting ആൺ
Did you intend to redirect ആൺ, which ends in a chillu, to ആണ് (āṇŭ)? I have rearranged the hard redirects and contents so that ആൺ (āṇ) (atomic chillu) and ആൺ (original encoding) lead to the same content, while ആണ് (āṇŭ) is isolated. --RichardW57 (talk) 11:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- ആൺ (āṇ) (with chillu) is another version of ആണ് (āṇŭ) (with the epenthetic vowel) and the one ending with ŭ is more common; the original encoding of chillu letters is messed up AleksiB 1945 (talk) 12:02, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- One what? Do you mean form of the word for 'man', 'male'? It looks to me as though one needs cross-links at the level of lemmas (as opposed to spellings). --RichardW57 (talk) 15:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- In both pronunciation and writing ആണ് (āṇŭ) is more common, all words ending with ൺ (ṇ) are now pronounced with the epenthetic vowel "ŭ" to ണ് (ṇŭ) but both ആൺ (āṇ) and ആണ് (āṇŭ) are considered correct AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:27, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- One what? Do you mean form of the word for 'man', 'male'? It looks to me as though one needs cross-links at the level of lemmas (as opposed to spellings). --RichardW57 (talk) 15:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- Importantly, we don’t add hard redirects in situations like this. We should always use soft redirects. Please don’t do this. Theknightwho (talk) 22:23, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Incorrect IPA rendering in ta-IPA
Hi, I recently came accross an issue with 'ta-IPA', it's rendering incorrect pronunciations after you made some changes to it recently. For instance, its rendering /n̪ɐʈɐnɐm/, [n̪ɐɖɐnɐm] for நடனம், which is incorrect. The word is never pronounced as n̪ɐʈɐnɐm, it's either /n̪ɐɖɐnɐm/ or /n̪aɖanam/. And another one is /mukɐm/, [muɡɐm] முகம், which is either muɡɐm or muɡam. Please fix this issue. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 09:01, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Emmanuel Asbon, voiced plosives are still not phonemic in standard Tamil, it is a feature of colloquial Tamil which is why i made (for eg.) ஆடு render as phonemic /aːʈu/ and phonetic [aːɖɯ] instead of /aːɖu/, [aːɖɯ]
- Another issue i noticed was phonetic /ɲt͡ɕ/ displays as [ɲs] instead of [ɲd͡ʑ] like இஞ்சி as /iɲt͡ɕi/, [iɲsi]; i tried to fix it by adding " ['ɲt͡ɕ']='ɲd͡ʑ', ['ɲs']='ɲd͡ʑ'" but its not working AleksiB 1945 (talk) 12:35, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
- ஆடு in standard Tamil is still pronounced as /aːɖu/ or /aːɖɯ/, never as /aːʈu/. I think it's better to revert it back to the old form, it's the most accurate and proper rendering of the Tamil script both for standard/colloquial Tamil. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 14:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Emmanuel Asbon, Yes it is pronounced as [aːɖɯ] but phonemically it is /aːʈu/, voiced plosives are allophones of the voiceless plosives as (in native standard) they only occur between vowels (+ some other sonorants) and after nasals whereas its pronounced unvoiced initially and when doubled which is why they are spelt with a single letter like த in ததத்தந்த is pronounced as [t̪] and [d̪] but spelt with only 1 letter as their distribution is predictable; real pronunciation is written with brackets [t̪ad̪at̪:an̪d̪a] and phonemes with slashes /t̪at̪at̪:an̪t̪a/. I reverted the changes by the way AleksiB 1945 (talk) 19:17, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, you're right, but it's also producing incorrect outputs as a result of that. Just now I tried it on சிரபுஞ்சி (cirapuñci), it's only yielding /t͡ɕiɾɐbuɲd͡ʑi/ (I can manually fix the /b/ to /p/, that isn't the problem, why isn't it yielding /sɪɾəbuɲd͡ʑi/? It's the actual Tamil pronunciation of the word. It just outright neglicts the /s/ sound. Is there a way to rectify that? Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 19:05, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Before it was rendering சசச்சஞ்ச as sɐsɐɲsɐt͡ɕːɐ I changed to to t͡ɕɐsɐɲd͡ʑɐt͡ɕːɐ better than ɲs atleast but i dont know how to make it as actual sɐsɐɲd͡ʑɐt͡ɕːɐ
- maybe @Bhagadatta can help AleksiB 1945 (talk) 13:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sorry to keep bothering you, I'm not really good with modules. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 19:07, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, you're right, but it's also producing incorrect outputs as a result of that. Just now I tried it on சிரபுஞ்சி (cirapuñci), it's only yielding /t͡ɕiɾɐbuɲd͡ʑi/ (I can manually fix the /b/ to /p/, that isn't the problem, why isn't it yielding /sɪɾəbuɲd͡ʑi/? It's the actual Tamil pronunciation of the word. It just outright neglicts the /s/ sound. Is there a way to rectify that? Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 19:05, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Emmanuel Asbon, Yes it is pronounced as [aːɖɯ] but phonemically it is /aːʈu/, voiced plosives are allophones of the voiceless plosives as (in native standard) they only occur between vowels (+ some other sonorants) and after nasals whereas its pronounced unvoiced initially and when doubled which is why they are spelt with a single letter like த in ததத்தந்த is pronounced as [t̪] and [d̪] but spelt with only 1 letter as their distribution is predictable; real pronunciation is written with brackets [t̪ad̪at̪:an̪d̪a] and phonemes with slashes /t̪at̪at̪:an̪t̪a/. I reverted the changes by the way AleksiB 1945 (talk) 19:17, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
- ஆடு in standard Tamil is still pronounced as /aːɖu/ or /aːɖɯ/, never as /aːʈu/. I think it's better to revert it back to the old form, it's the most accurate and proper rendering of the Tamil script both for standard/colloquial Tamil. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 14:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
- @AleksiB 1945 Re: // real pronunciation is written with brackets [t̪ad̪at̪:an̪d̪a] and phonemes with slashes /t̪at̪at̪:an̪t̪a/ //: In that case, can we use the ISO or IAST notation for the latter? Is there any value using IPA for something that doesn't reflect the pronunciation? -- 08:04, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Proto-Dravidian *colay
I have deleted your entry *colay as it only accounts for the Tamil-Kannada branch. Krishnamurthy may mention it as "*col(ay)", but when it comes to reconstructing it, he reconstructs it as *col because it can accomodate all the other descendants. *colay is just the specific derivation from which the Tamil, Kannada and Malayalam terms are descended. Your entry was also a poorly created stub, with only Tamil and Malayalam descendants. I have added all the necessary info to the entry *col. In general, you have been hastily creating a lot of half hearted stubs which only increase the work for other editors. Please slow down and put more effort into your entries. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴) 02:12, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Bhagadatta The only thing I dont include is all of the descendants as im only familiar with Malayalam and Tamil also other than ml, ta, kn and te its really hard to find words in other Dravidian languages, in [4] I tried to find cognates in the central/south-central languages and then gave up. Then there is the issue of scripts, many dont have a proper orthography or written form like Toda is written with the Tamil script even though it really cant be written with it AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:49, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
Basic tastes table
Hi, AleksiB_1945. I wanted to let you know that I created the table you suggested. I tried to find the best images I could to represent the tastes, but they can obviously be changed at any time. I think those objects are a great shorthand for the tastes, but there could be e.g. a more square picture of a watermelon that I was unable to find. If you ever want to make more in the future, I could also show you how just so more people know, but I also wouldn't mind doing it myself either. Thank you again for the suggestion! :) TheTechnician27 (talk) 18:16, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, the images are okay they dont need to be changed AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
ml, mul
Your changes result in the heading and the headword languages not matching, which is non-standard. Translingual is “mul”, whereas Malayalam is “ml”. J3133 (talk) 12:09, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I see your changes have already been reverted by Kwamikagami. J3133 (talk) 08:21, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Proto-Dravidian entries
Please consult the people that worked on the Proto-Dravidian entries you're moving before you move them. You also can't create headers for languages that don't have language codes, like you did for Reconstruction:Proto-South Dravidian I/karumpu. @AryamanA, Pulimaiyi -- {{victar|talk}}
15:05, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- There are talks on adding the code for Dravidian branches [5] and the word can only be constructed to PSD1 stage [6]; as for *pinccVr the author too says its likely from a -ncc- and the 2nd vowel varies AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, please wait for the code to be added before creating these reconstructions. I will get around to adding these codes shortly. Also, regarding the earlier conversation we had, it is not just the lack of descendants that makes a reconstruction shoddy; you should scrutinize well whether it deserves an entry or is better left to the etymology section. Be a bit more conservative in your approach to reconstructions; when linguists are not sure of the vowel and simply place a V in place of a vowel, it is best not to add entries for them or even if they are added, it is courteous to sort the descendants form-wise instead of just dumping them all together. I will be adding the codes, I just need more input on whether it is PD -> PSD -> PSD I & II or PD -> PSD & PSCD (Proto South-Central Dravidian). Kindly wait till then. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬) 15:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Pulimaiyi: Please see my concerns with the first schema below. Also note that North Dravidian is disputed. Another question that should be asked as well is, are the Dravidian subbranches distinct enough that their reconstructions aren't just going to be the same as Proto-Dravidian? If the differences are minor, perhaps labels would be better, like used in Germanic, ex. Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/lagu. --
{{victar|talk}}
07:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Pulimaiyi: Please see my concerns with the first schema below. Also note that North Dravidian is disputed. Another question that should be asked as well is, are the Dravidian subbranches distinct enough that their reconstructions aren't just going to be the same as Proto-Dravidian? If the differences are minor, perhaps labels would be better, like used in Germanic, ex. Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/lagu. --
- Hi, please wait for the code to be added before creating these reconstructions. I will get around to adding these codes shortly. Also, regarding the earlier conversation we had, it is not just the lack of descendants that makes a reconstruction shoddy; you should scrutinize well whether it deserves an entry or is better left to the etymology section. Be a bit more conservative in your approach to reconstructions; when linguists are not sure of the vowel and simply place a V in place of a vowel, it is best not to add entries for them or even if they are added, it is courteous to sort the descendants form-wise instead of just dumping them all together. I will be adding the codes, I just need more input on whether it is PD -> PSD -> PSD I & II or PD -> PSD & PSCD (Proto South-Central Dravidian). Kindly wait till then. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬) 15:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- On Discord, I asked Sundar (talk • contribs), who specializes in Dravidian, about this and he procured the following information:
"There are two separate naming schemes (see Krishnamurti 2003, p. 21). In the first, PSDr > PSDr I and PSDr II, and in the second (an unnamed source language) > PSDr and PSCDr.
However, PSDr almost exclusively refers to the latest common ancestor of Tamil-Kannada and Tulu in any conversation I’ve had with Dravidianists..."- I'd like to know your input on this before a code is added. Also inviting @Kutchkutch. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬) 04:46, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
- There are many terms reconstructable at the common ancestor of Tamil-Tulu & Telugu-Kui stage so it would be better to have a name for it and there isnt a common name for the ancestor likely because until the 70s SCD was grouped inside CD so it was just a North-Central-South division before with Tamil-Tulu as South for a long time AleksiB 1945 (talk) 12:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Pulimaiyi: Thanks for the invitation and procuring the clarification regarding the two naming schemes. AleksiB_1945's example entries have used the roman numerals naming scheme.
PSDr almost exclusively refers to the latest common ancestor of Tamil-Kannada and Tulu
and AleksiB_1945's response above suggests that(an unnamed source language) > PSDr and PSCDr
should be the naming scheme. This naming scheme has the advantage of avoiding ambiguous roman numerals. However, the difficulty is what to call theunnamed source language
.Proto-Unified-Southern-Dravidian
? Should the naming scheme for the codes bedra-nor-pro
,dra-cen-pro
, etc?
- @Pulimaiyi: Thanks for the invitation and procuring the clarification regarding the two naming schemes. AleksiB_1945's example entries have used the roman numerals naming scheme.
- @AleksiB_1945 Thanks for the reconstructed example entries. However,
creat[ing] headers for languages that don't have language codes
is one of the reasons I suggested placing the example entries in the user namespace at Category_talk:Proto-Dravidian_language#Old_Telugu_&_Old_Malayalam rather than the reconstruction namespace until the language codes are created. Kutchkutch (talk) 03:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- @AleksiB_1945 Thanks for the reconstructed example entries. However,
- I was actually talking about PSD > PSD I, PSD II as PSD is already used for Tamil-Telugu, wouldnt it be better to use it and instead of PSD I, PSD II we could use PSD 1, PSD 2 AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- @AleksiB_1945 Thanks for the clarification regarding your position. It appears I misunderstood your response. So you support the
PSD > PSD I, PSD II
naming scheme because it allows for there to be a named common ancestor forPSD I, PSD II
, which is not present in the(an unnamed source language) > PSDr and PSCDr
naming scheme.{{R:dra:DL}}
does use thePSD > PSD I, PSD II
naming scheme more frequently. Kutchkutch (talk) 22:46, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- @AleksiB_1945 Thanks for the clarification regarding your position. It appears I misunderstood your response. So you support the
- I'm really only interested in Dravidian terms borrowed into Sanskrit, but on the entries I did create, I used the Ethnologue tree, which separates the two southern branches into South-Central Dravidian and Southern Dravidian. With the grouping of the Dravidian sub-branches being disputed, it seems the safest best. --
{{victar|talk}}
20:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)- PSD > PSD I, PSD II is used too like glottolog uses PSD > PSD I, PSD II AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm aware of the Glottolog tree, but also keep in my that there genetic groupings, and then there are non-genetic areal groupings, like Southeastern Iranian. See Dravidian_languages#Classification. --
{{victar|talk}}
07:07, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm aware of the Glottolog tree, but also keep in my that there genetic groupings, and then there are non-genetic areal groupings, like Southeastern Iranian. See Dravidian_languages#Classification. --
- PSD > PSD I, PSD II is used too like glottolog uses PSD > PSD I, PSD II AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
Malayalam Module Errors
There are now 6 entries in CAT:E with module errors. First there were ഇരുപത്തൊന്നാം and ഇരുപത്തൊന്ന്, where something changed that made the {{number box}}
unable to match the entry names with anything in Module:number list/data/ml, which you just edited. Then came 4 more entries where it was @Vis M who added {{ml-IPA}}
to the entries, but you had just been working with the module that's throwing the errors, Module:ml-IPA. I don't really know what happened or how to correct it, but you seem to be the person to figure that out and fix the problems. Please do so. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 02:39, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- I tried fixing the mod for chillus and its working in pages like ആൽ and ആൽഡോസ്റ്റിറോൺ but not in most other pages fsr AleksiB 1945 (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, Vis M here. The errors for first 2 entries came from a typo on their latest edit. I have fixed it with this edit: [7].
- The other four are from a known bug in
{{ml-IPA}}
when handling Malayalam "chillaksharam" letters. I think someone with Lua or coding knowledge will be needed for it. Thanks. Vis M (talk) 03:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC) - I always have to manually fix them by substituting the "chillakasharam" with needed IPA characters, like this: [8] to remove the error. Vis M (talk) 04:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Vis M: Word-medially, the chillakasharam could be replaced with the non-chillakasharam form plus virama such as at ചർമ്മം and ഗീവർഗീസ്. Kutchkutch (talk) 04:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- It can actually become an issue once IPA for "non-chillakasharam form plus virama" becomes fixed. It's pronounced differently. Vis M (talk) 04:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- From my perspective, the issue that the vowel_diacritics table is incomplete, but I don't know enough about Malayalam script to fix it properly. Please fix ASAP, thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 22:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- This needs to be fixed immediately, either by fixing the module or by adding the workaround IPA. Otherwise, the
{{ml-IPA}}
template will have to be removed from the entries with module errors. Having templates in entries that display nothing but module errors is a really bad idea, and cluttering up CAT:E makes it hard to spot unrelated errors. At the very least, @Vis M needs to stop adding the template where it throws an error. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2023 (UTC)- I have fixed all 12 entries by adding the workaround IPA for now Vis M (talk) 01:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- It can actually become an issue once IPA for "non-chillakasharam form plus virama" becomes fixed. It's pronounced differently. Vis M (talk) 04:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Vis M: Word-medially, the chillakasharam could be replaced with the non-chillakasharam form plus virama such as at ചർമ്മം and ഗീവർഗീസ്. Kutchkutch (talk) 04:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)