Wiktionary:Tea room/2016/July

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handicraftsman

Is the etymology correct, i.e. is it really a possessive and not a plural s? Equinox ◑ 18:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Usually these come from a genitive form (and the OED says this one does), though I think the etymology should say that specifically and not write "handicraft's" since the apostrophe is probably anachronistic. Ƿidsiþ 17:02, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

grape

Lua error in Module:quote at line 2571: Unrecognized value 'translation' for type=; possible values are book,journal

What sense of grape is this (or is this some kind of mistake in translation / transcription?) DTLHS (talk) 22:10, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Judging by the intelligibility of the translation, I'd say error, whether in printing or elsewhere I wouldn't say. DCDuring TALK 22:50, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like this is a translation of: "Huius farinæ sunt et isti, qui libris edendis famam immortalem aucupantur", and is an attempt to provide an equivalent to the metaphor of being made from the same raw material: instead of bread being made from the same meal, it's wine being made of the same grapes. I suppose it's the same metaphor as cut from the same cloth. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

quiet down, meaning 2

The second meaning of quiet down and quieten down currently reads

To reduce intensity of an activity.
Diplomacy can only begin when the violence quiets down.

I think the definition should be changed, since the violence is not reducing intensity of anything. I don't know how to phrase it better though. AxelBoldt (talk) 23:10, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

любитель

Someone who lacks sufficient knowledge has entered declension and stress information on many Russian words inaccurately. The Russian wiktionary entries are correct; the English ones deserve to be treated with suspicion. What made this clown think the plural is end-stressed? The Russian wiktionary shows the stress is stable on this word. The Wiki world is full of dodgy material by people who DON'T KNOW. — This unsigned comment was added by 176.36.241.81 (talk).

The internet is also full of those who anonymously leave gratuitous insults about people they don't know. We've just converted large numbers of entries to use new templates, and have been working on the modules behind them, so it's certainly possible there are errors- I'll leave that to our Russian editors to determine. I'll alert a couple of the people who have been working on this: @Benwing2‎, Atitarev‎. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:37, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like Anatoli accidentally gave this the wrong stress class; fixed. Are there any other words you know that have errors in them? BTW Anatoli certainly does know Russian and is a native speaker with quite a lot of linguistic insight, so I imagine this is an isolated error. In general I think our entries are pretty high quality, and in the case of short adjective forms in many cases we are better than ruwikt. Benwing2 (talk) 16:32, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that was an accident. Thanks for fixing. I'm unconcerned about casual morons posting here. I can't be bothered counting errors on the Russian Wiktionary either.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:34, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What about оказать then? This is not оказаю. (окажу in the Russian wiki is correct). The entry for скорость is wrong too. It is скоростЕЙ, скоростЯм итд. unsigned comment by User:176.36.241.81 18:18, 3 July 2016‎ (UTC)[reply]
The Russian conjugations and declensions are accomplished by the use of complex templates. The pattern, or paradigm, for each word is specified by the used of codes such as 1a+p, which tell the template all of the necessary information to write a correct table. However, since these codes are complex, it is rather easy to make a mistake. It is only a typing error (typo). It does not mean that the contributor "lacks knowledge" or "doesn't know". Our Russian editors are very knowledgeable in the language, and they know the correct declensions and conjugations perfectly well. Whenever you find such an error, we are very glad when you point it out for us. However, you should always notify us of errors in a professional and respectful manner, and not accompanied by such insults and rude comments that you used above. Simply say that the declension or conjugation has mistakes and we will fix it right away. —Stephen (Talk) 19:34, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, constructive criticism or feedback is always appreciated with no insults. We have less people working on the Russian entries here than in the Russian Wiktionary. Yes, I think our overall quality of Russian entries is very high. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:57, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I seem to have bumped into Stephen the Twitter warrior. At least Wiki allows more than 140 characters, right? An SJW in his spare time? unsigned comment by User:176.36.241.81 19:52, 3 July 2016‎ (UTC)[reply]
I don’t use Twitter and I don’t know the abbreviation SJW. оказать and скорость have been corrected. —Stephen (Talk) 20:03, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
бунтарь - ending-stressed in the genitive — This unsigned comment was added by 176.36.241.81 (talk).
бунтарь is corrected. —Stephen (Talk) 20:32, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
SJW=social justice warrior. If I didn't know better, I could swear we're being trolled... Chuck Entz (talk) 03:49, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also оглянуться is wrong too. It is not оглянётся, but оглянется. — This unsigned comment was added by 176.36.241.81 (talk) at 18:17, 10 July 2016.
Thanks, I'll fix it. Benwing2 (talk) 19:50, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Likely erroneous verb form and conjugation tables

The Portuguese entry for the verb "vir" most likely has an incorrect spelling of the second person (familiar) singular present. To the best of my knowledge, the correct form is "vens" and not "véns". I'm not knowledgeable enough about editing to edit a verb table, however. S. Neuman (talk) 14:09, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@S. Neuman Thank you; fixed. Benwing2 (talk) 16:38, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

raw dog & hot dog

Are these terms related somehow? --Fsojic (talk) 23:31, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

adulting

Can someone explain the grammar of the Drummond citation for the adultery sense? I can't parse it. Equinox ◑ 13:41, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • It's not really a noun here, I think it's in the wrong section – ‘adulting the issue’ here means ‘diluting the parentage of the child’. Ƿidsiþ 13:55, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

kind of

What is the etymology trying to say? Equinox ◑ 14:41, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That the expression was originally part of normal expressions of the form "a kind of ADJ NOUN", that speakers came to think of kind of as modifying ADJ, so that one could say "NOUN is kind of ADJ" instead of "NOUN is a kind of ADJ one". DCDuring TALK 15:13, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I find it very hard to comprehend. Want to be brave and improve it? Equinox ◑ 08:40, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was hoping those with more formal linguistics background than I would address this. DCDuring TALK 11:01, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Input needed
This discussion needs further input in order to be successfully closed. Please take a look!
You already have a very full answer, even if you don't realise it. "A kind of problem"---> "kind of a problem". What's so difficult? — This unsigned comment was added by 176.36.241.81 (talk) at 14:49, July 8, 2016.
Hunh? DCDuring TALK 19:05, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think the explanation is confusing and unnecessary. Maybe it should be removed ? Leasnam (talk) 17:18, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The "explanation" is baffling to me. 109.149.110.84 02:10, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What we are dealing with here is your low IQ. There is nothing wrong with the explanation. I think you would be better off directing your attentions to manual hobbies like woodwork. — This unsigned comment was added by 176.36.241.81 (talk) at 11:00, July 12, 2016.
Or learning manners and how to respect others. If an explanation is not so expertly crafted as to be understood by even the youngest of children, then perhaps it's no marvellous explanation at all huh ? Leasnam (talk) 15:06, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

depublish -- use outside California law?

The only quotations I found for the term "depublish" appeared to be in discussions of the practice of California courts to retroactively prevent previous cases from being used as precedent. If anyone can dig up other quotations, that would be interesting. JesseW (talk) 23:59, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that unpublish is more common a choice for a prefix meaning reverse + publish.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:55, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

doneness -- beyond cooking food?

The only quotations I found for doneness related to cooking food, and so I narrowed the meaning to that. I certainly may have missed some that use it in a broader sense, so I'm bringing it here to see if others can find them. JesseW (talk) 02:27, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I found another sense. Equinox ◑ 10:35, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

light up like the Fourth of July

Is this, or perhaps just "like the Fourth of July", idiomatic? - -sche (discuss) 01:11, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'd vote no: that only rarely would such a simile be suitable for a dictionary. Fourth of July should include a reference to fireworks and that should suffice. DCDuring TALK 05:26, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

uncorporeal

I think the uncorporeal page should remark that, even if it is a valid word, one is more likely to want to use incorporeal. Ohnobinki (talk) 16:10, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of Batman (the Turkish province)

Please see "Talk:Batman#Pronunciation". — SMUconlaw (talk) 20:08, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I created an entry in Wiktionary but unfortunately it was entered as anonymous

I have just created the entry помолвить in Wiktionary, but I made a mistake of saving it without being logged in. Is there any way to amend the entry's history showing my IP address to rather come up with my proper user name? Cheers — This comment was unsigned.

One good idea would be sign your contributions on discussion pages, such as this one. Are you sure that you want that IP address to be associated publicly with your user name? DCDuring TALK 02:59, 6 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

mula as in money

I'm surprised we don't have this common slang expression for money - mula. Did I spell it correctly? ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:23, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

moola. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 01:27, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:58, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Moola or moolah.

Category:Bahamas

I found out that Category:Bahamas is not the Bahamas. I found out that according to this BBC article ([1]),

But according to several authoritative sources, such as the CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World and the US Department of State, only two countries, The Bahamas and The Gambia, should officially be referred to with the article.

Would it be better to change it to Category:The Bahamas? --KoreanQuoter (talk) 14:34, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

storeowner

Does this word fit in Category:English words with vowel pseudo-digraphs? DTLHS (talk) 21:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tangential: as I wrote at WT:RFM#Category:English_words_with_consonant_pseudo-digraphs, I wonder if there's any practical way of maintaining these categories... - -sche (discuss) 22:27, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

fillet

Would this be an example of a word that is pronounced differently in the UK and the US? In Australia I guess FILL-eut is more common, while my American friend insists they always pronounce it as fill-LAY. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the only person I've heard to pronounce the final consonant was from England, and the pseudo-French pronunciation is very common here in the US, but I don't know anything about the relative frequencies in the UK. After all, hypercorrection can theoretically happen anywhere. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:11, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
AIUI, and from my life experience as a Brit: "fillet" has the final /t/, but "filet" (as a French loan) does not. (Chambers Dictionary agrees with me on this.) One common exception is the McDonald's burger called Filet-o-Fish: they pronounce the /t/ in their advertising, and it would feel a bit pretentious to use the French pronunciation for fast food. Equinox ◑ 03:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In American McDonald'ses it's pronounced "fi-LAY o' fish" and that doesn't feel pretentious to us at all. But my experience of American English includes only the word filet; I don't think fillet was ever a part of my active vocabulary, and not a very significant part of my passive vocabulary, either. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:33, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For one thing, fillet is a verb; there's no way to be "filleting" a fish without /t/. Re McDonald's, see their 1990s ad on YouTube [2]: "fille/t/ o' fish for my wife!" (a bit of a catchphrase for Brits of a certain age, I suspect). Equinox ◑ 08:36, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's another pondian difference then. In US English you'd be fileting a fish and pronouncing it to rhyme with "praying". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I find it fascinating that some French words are pronounced French-like in British and English-like in American and some are pronounced French-like in American and English-like in British. In all cases everyone makes fun of everyone for pronouncing things wrong. --WikiTiki89 18:17, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

no-lose synonym

I heard a financial word that sounds like "albatross" which is essentially a no-lose scenario for the investor - they either (at minimum) break even or come out ahead, but do not lose on the investment. It's fundamentally the opposite of a "lose-lose" situation... has anyone heard of this word and the proper spelling?

Well, an "albatross" would refer to a lose-lose situation, perhaps you're thinking of this? Benwing2 (talk) 23:18, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

tournament

I'm English and can tell the editors for nothing that "ternament" is not an RP pronunciation of this word. It would be regarded in England as an ignorant pronunciation by someone who didn't know the correct pronunciation.

That looks strange to me too. Equinox ◑ 22:27, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All the pronunciations look strange - I've never heard /-mɛnt/, only /-mənt/. Keith the Koala (talk) 17:20, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Keith the Koala, you're right, it is /-mənt/ (or more likely /-mənʔ/ with a glottal stop). — This unsigned comment was added by 176.36.241.81 (talk) at 18:16, 10 July 2016.
Better? I can personally attest that in American English all three initial vowels exist. --WikiTiki89 14:42, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

𧦅

I was wondering if the character 𧦅 is a shinjitai form of 謳 (part of JIS X 0213). Could anyone clarify this is correct? Dingo1234555 (talk) 03:33, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

merk

The AAVE sense of the term that I have quoted means running [away from] but evidently, it is a contraction of "mercenary" meaning "to kill". Does anyone have any better sources on this? I would love to expand our coverage of American slang. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:12, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it might come from murder, not mercenary. Equinox ◑ 13:47, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What about Mercury (for the running sense)? Leasnam (talk) 17:16, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
AAVE isn't particularly known for allusions to Roman mythology. The slang term merc, short for mercenary, does exist (it's in the New Oxford American Dictionary app on my computer). Semantically, one could make a connection based on fighters who are only in it for the money being less likely to stay around when things go bad. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:26, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, no, but it's not an allusion necessaily to Roman mythology. Lot's of familiar companies use Mercury's winged sandals, for instance Goodyear tires do, and so does a footwear brand (Athletes ?). Red Bull is another, right ? Anyway, it was just a guess :) Leasnam (talk) 22:03, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do those actually mention the name Mercury, or do they just use symbols that can be recognized by someone familiar with Greek mythology? Chuck Entz (talk) 23:16, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
With Goodyear/Michelin, they're called Mercury tires. I think Mercury is also the name of several different labels of athletic shoes. My reasoning for the connection, I could honestly see someone saying "You need to move/act/fly like Mercury" => "you need to Mercury yourself up out of here" => etc. though it's a distant connection at best Leasnam (talk) 23:34, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

ἄω

I'm a bit puzzled by etymology 2 here. The form ἄω (áō) doesn't actually occur in the inflection table, so is it even attested? Or should the lemma be moved to one that is attested, ἄεσα (áesa)? —CodeCat 20:51, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Attested or not, it seems to meet CFI's LDL requirements, since it's in LSJ under ἄω. It may be a more extreme case, but our treatment of it follows from the decisions to always use the present active first-person singular as the lemma, and to show unattested forms in inflections. Moving it to what's normally a non-lemma form would be inconsistent, but then there doesn't seem to be any unreservedly good choice here, just a very few that are all flawed, but in different ways. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:52, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, for Latin deponent verbs, we use the passive form because the active form doesn't exist. Same for Greek ones. We don't use the present of meminī as the lemma either. This case, which also lacks the present, seems similar enough. —CodeCat 23:08, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All of those are semantically present and active, even if they're morphologically passive or perfect. More importantly, there's a consistent practice among dictionaries and lexicons of those languages to use them as lemmas. I don't see that here. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:38, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

VIN, vehicle identification number

Re (US) labels: these terms may have originated in the US, but seem to be much more widespread now. DonnanZ (talk) 11:36, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could be. I have moved the main entry to vehicle identification number based on it apparently being the more common form. OTOH VIN is more common than vin. DCDuring TALK 15:37, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A good move, I was going to suggest that. Yes VIN is the common form, not to be confused with vin (wine). The words VIN/Chassis|Frame No. appear on the registration certificate dated 1999 for my old Mercedes, so the term has been used here for quite a while. DonnanZ (talk) 16:01, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

fraternal

I think all of the adjective senses could be combined into "of or pertaining to a brother or brothers". Does anyone disagree? DTLHS (talk) 18:06, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, except for numbers 3 and 6. --Paradichlorobenzene (talk) 18:30, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, but I would probably leave 8 as a separate sense as well. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 23:29, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

click and klick

klick

  1. (deprecated use of |lang= parameter) Alternative spelling of click

click

  1. (deprecated use of |lang= parameter) Alternative spelling of klick

I think it would be useful if one or both of these had a context label?? Keith the Koala (talk) 20:26, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not a label but a gloss and sense id. —CodeCat 20:36, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

or words to that effect

This entry is too specific and should be replaced by to that effect. In addition to the example given

When he hit his finger with the hammer, he said "ouch" or words to that effect.

...it could also accommodate...

Your sister also said something to that effect.

DanwWiki (talk) 13:41, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

until the cows come home

Could someone check if I applied {{head}} properly in "until the cows come home"? There are examples of the phrase appearing the form until the cows came home, but I'm not sure if this is correctly described as the "simple past and past participle" of the phrase. (Also, I found one instance of the form until the cows are coming home, but this was from a work by an Indian author so it could be an isolated non-standard form. I don't suppose I should add this to the entry, should I?) — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A prepositional phrase is not really a verb. But I think what I did is better at the very least. --WikiTiki89 17:26, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

intermediate precision

Do such terms as "intermediate precision" merit inclusion in the dictionary? ---CopperKettle (talk) 17:28, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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