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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Closed - it obviously isn't a keep in the state it was in when nominated, but discussions are ongoing and don't appear to involve deletion (except perhaps by mutual consensus at a later date). Any of the proposed solutions can be worked out on the talk therefore don't require further involvement in AFD. Yomanganitalk 10:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aryan theory and Tamils

[edit]

Unsalvageable title. Opinion piece based on apparently 19th century notions of an Aryan race (what is an "Aryan theory"?). The actual topic addressed by this essay is treated at Aryan Invasion Theory (history and controversies). dab (ᛏ) 09:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is an incorrect view. The article has a few opinion no doubt, but the purpose of the article is to list the impact of Aryans on Tamil Culture.This is different from the other article Aryan Invasion Theory (history and controversies, in that this examines the impact of Aryan culture on Tamils. Moreover it does not confine itself only to an invasionist scenario. The fact is that different tribes of India, who have different origins intermingled and have produced a composie culture. The effect has been different in different places, and it is not necessarily because of some kind of invasion. --Harishsubramanian 10:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

it is not clear what you even mean by "Aryans". Language? Culture? Race? This confusion already makes your article idiosyncratic. You do allude to some valid topics, which, guess what, all do already have extensive coverage on Wikipedia (arya, Aryan race, Indo-Aryan migration), I suggest you try to add whatever it is you want to say to one of these. dab (ᛏ) 11:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The term "Aryan" was widely used prior to the second world war by European and Indian historians, the modern equivalent sometimes used is Indoeuropean, which refers to a language and people. The other principal Indian ethnic and language group was Dravidan, which includes Tamil. Ok, this is all something of a simplification and is contested. However, the term "Aryan" does not have neo-nazi overtones in this context. Addhoc 13:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - per Addhoc.Bakaman Bakatalk 16:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Bharatveer 13:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Keep

Comment in this regard: Dont confuse this subject with the Aryan invasion or migration theory which is something that happened much prior to an interaction in south India with representaives of Aryan Culture(who you may say have become indigenous to India by then, yet retain the name Aryans)

The word Brahmin is not synonymous with the word Aryan, but the former are seen as the living representatives of Aryan Culture.My earlier title indeed was a mistake, it could have been Indo-Aryan Culture and Tamils(an Indo-Aryan culture can come into existence only a long time after an Aryan migration), and I have therefore changed the title, in acceptance of my mistake. .Thus one cannot separate the two words -Aryan and Brahmin from each other, but one has to understand the difference in the two terms. Aryan Invasion is not the same as Brahminical influence on other cultures, but understanding the latter requires understanding of the former.

I agree this article is confusing for two reasons 1. The article needs improvement and standardisation 2. Readers who find this article similar to Aryan Invasion theory have insufficent knowledge of this whole subject,because they confuse the two aspects. This confusion is fairly widespread and thus it has also been mentioned in the article and the subject will continue to require a reference to Aryan Invasion theory.

I am certain that addressing the first aspect solves the confusion, but this in no way calls for deletion. Such an action will only be based on ignorance and lack of knowledege of different aspects to the term Aryan, Brahmin , Indian and Dravidian, all of which are different and yet subtly interlinked.One thing cannot be mentioned without reffering to the other.

I would like to know how the other article in anyway explains the relationship of Brahminical culture with Tamil Culture.It only talks about the Aryan invasion theory, and does not in anyway deal with 'Brahminical interaction with Tamil Culture', which took place much later than an actual Aryan migration or invasion. I honestly agree that The content may need to be revised but the article should exist beyond any doubt.

This is not intended to be an essay. It seeks to put forward the various theories that have been put forward by scholars and none of the points which have been mentioned are mine. I have mentioned the theories as proposed by scholars such as Koenrad elst, witzel, Neelakantha Shastri, Romila Thapar, periyar and I have also shown all the references and this article is most certainly neutral. These references will comprehensively prove my point.

--Harishsubramanian 08:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

well, I agree that in principle there can be an article about Dravidians and Hinduism. It's just that your essay does very little to address the topic. We can move it to an acceptable title and slap it with a cleanup tag, sure. But who will clean it up? And who will add material that isn't already covered elsewhere? Until useful material is added, it can be kept as a {{R with possibilities}}. dab (ᛏ) 08:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • in its present state, I think the article has some potential. I invested 20 minutes in cleaning it up and tagging the worst bits. I would withdraw this AfD, but insist on merging the article into existing ones, unless' the people voting keep are prepared to invest time in cleaning up and adding value. dab (ᛏ) 08:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dbachmann, if you have nominated an article for deletion you should NOT be moving the article without discussion. Could I suggest you move it back? Thanks, Addhoc 09:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
what do you mean, "without discussion"? I am discussing. "Brahminical culture" is fine with me. It was me who had to turn the redlink into a redirect to Brahminism (so, once again, don't just complain, help fixing things). Now Brahminism says that the term is outdated and was used in the 19th century equivalent with Hinduism. My entire point is that the article is written (and extremely badly at that) from a 19th century perspective, add the "Brahminism" to the confused notion of "Aryan", so if you insist there is anything salvageable here, just try and turn it into something presentable in contemporary terms. dab (ᛏ) 17:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In the context of Hinduism, the term Aryan is still in current usage [1]. There is some debate regarding the term, however there is a viewpoint that not using the description would constitute a posthumous victory for nazism. Similarly, there is debate about the swastika, which for example is used in the Hinduism template. To use Brahmanism for Hinduism would be completely inappropriate, however to use the term to describe a specific aspect of indoeuropean culture is again current usage [2]. Finally, thanks for fixing the link. Addhoc 18:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In the context of Hinduism, Sanskrit arya is used, which article I kindly ask you to review. This isn't just about Nazism, it is about accuracy. The term "Aryan" for Indo-Iranian is obsolete. The term "Aryan" for Indo-Aryan, as it is intended here, is inaccurate. If you could just use "Indo-Aryan" if you refer to the sociolinguistic group, things would be so much easier. The term "Aryan" is still in the compound, as you will note, it is just a matter of specifying a subgroup of the group formerly, and confusingly, known as "Aryans", and now properly called "Indo-Iranians". This has no direct connection with Hinduism, however, and discussing the term as used in Hinduism, you should link to arya. While there is no dichotomy "Tamils vs. arya" (Tamil brahmins can obviously be considered arya), there is a dichotomy Tamils vs. Indo-Aryans, linguistically. We have a set of beutiful articles that are explain this in detail, and the reason I put this on AfD is that both title and article were completely unaware of the first thing about this terminology. You can read it all up on Wikipedia, already. Now that it transpires that this article could be about Sanskritization of Dravidian peoples, or about Tamil separatism in Indian politics, it of course addresses a valid topic. So yes, we can move the article from the broken title, and replace the broken text with actual English containing actual encyclopedic infomation, but how exactly this is different from deletion isn't quite clear to me. dab (ᛏ) 19:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I think we're getting somewhere - I agree with virtually everything you have said about how scholars classify languages. However, what I'm saying is that Aryan [3] and Brahmanism [4] are current usage, not in the field of linguistics, but in discussion of religion and politics within India. Addhoc 19:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
yes, but there is a lot of confusion, because the terms are so similar or identical. Your link also uses "Aryan" in the socio-linguistic sense, not the arya=noble one, even if it talks about Hinduism, and with "these Aryan" refers to what we properly call Indo-Aryans. See Aryan. And Harishsubramanian is apparently also a classical victim of such confusion. Dravidians aren't [Indo-]Aryans, in the socio-linguistic sense. But they may of course be arya ("noble" in the Hindu sense, viz., if they follow Hindu doctrine and what not). The article, talking about "Aryan theory" and "Aryans" vs. Dravidians was obviously intending the socio-linguistic terms, but was caught up in confusion about the religious term. Now this article is about Brahminism and Tamils So how is its topic different from Tamil brahmins? Yet again, we see that it should be merged with an existing article. If it isn't about obstruse racial theories (anymore), merge it to an article on whatever it wants to be about. Also note that we are missing Tamil separatism, that might bear creation and a quick writeup, since it seems to be central to the topic at hand. dab (ᛏ) 19:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, regarding Tamil separatism that could possibly be redirected to Tamil Eelam. The article does use the term Indo-Aryan, however I would suggest the link provided isn't an isolated example. My understanding is that Tamil Brahmins only live in Tamil Nadu not Tamil Eelam, consequently the subject of this article is somewhat wider. Regarding a proposed merge, I guess in the context of this discussion heading towards keep that could be discussed after the AfD is closed. Addhoc 21:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tamil separatism should redirect to Tamil nationalism - it has historically existed both in TN and Sri Lanka. Also, there is a small Tamil Brahmin community (mostly Tamil Iyers) in the Jaffna peninsula. -- Arvind 10:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is once again some misunderstanding here,

Dravidians and Hinduism is once again a wrong topic.

Hinduism just like the word paganism is an umbrella of faiths. Moreover brahminism is not the same as Hinduism nor Hinduism an exclusive Indo-Aryan faith. Nor is brahminism always denoting religion - take for instance a most certainly brahminic atheistic tradition - that of charvakas. A sect, if at there is one such contemporary faith,which is completely dravidian without any external influence, can still be hinduism. There is a lot of debate on what is hinduism and what is not, and that's a completly different topic. So I am moving back this, until a more appropriate title can be suggested, in this case Brahminism and Tamils,which is not the same as Aryan,nor is it exactly the same as Hinduism.

--Harishsubramanian 09:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with you. Addhoc 09:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point, but go and look at Brahminism, and see above. Also, just as Hinduism isn't exclusively Indo-Aryan, so is "Brahminism", see Tamil brahmins, and also the very article under discussion (if you can make sense of the broken text). dab (ᛏ) 17:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You can see that the article brahminism has a POV attached. In scholarly circles brahminical culture is seen as a living sample of Indo-Aryan culture,although it is most definately Indic being influenced by other indian culture as well.Yes brahmins are almost always hindus, but the way they practice hinduism is not the same as others practice it and thats where the term 'brahminical culture' comes into place.so in a brahmin's ideology hinduism is brahminism. for instance brahmins cremate the dead, excepting those who have left rituals completely-sanyasis in north which is influenced more by brahmin culture, creamation is very common. in places like tamilnadu even people who have a respectable position in caste heirarchy bury the dead, and without the ellaborate rituals of brahmins. it is most certain that brahminical culture is influenced by the other practices of hinduism and even jainism and buddhism, but then there is this distinctiveness.so i am not sure how controversial the word brahminism is, but brahminical culture- which represents the culture in which brahmins are the priests of the community is very much a reality. there are other aspects to hinduism and many hindus, especially the low caste do not either perform the brahmin rituals nor do they refer to brahmin priests, but may still worship gods considered as part of hindu pantheon. so brahminical culture is considered by scholars as the offspring of indo-aryan thought,and the vedic culture and writings of brahmins is the main reference which is used to study Indo-Aryan culture. Without these writings, there is no point of reference at all.it is not that there are no other castes which can be classified as indo-aryan but we are ab;e to obtain information about the life of aryans in india, mostly from brahmin writings.

hinduism in any case is too vague, and for all we know even core hindu beliefs which is now propagated by brahmin works such as reincarnation(including in non humans) may have its origin in other cultures of india and thus in that sense their claim to hinduism could be greater. some also believe that vedic culture is more oriented to montheism. so in ancient times, dravidians may have been more hindu than brahmins before being influenced by their culture. all these points which i have specified are part of scholarly debate and continue to this date.

--Harishsubramanian 04:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect. The article is in an awful state, largely due to incompetent editing (and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense – it's just a fact that this, like some other South Asia articles, has been written by persons who do not understand encyclopedic norms, and are not sufficiently proficient in the English language to write decent copy) BUT the subject is highly important and should be covered. However, I would prefer Dravidians and Hinduism, which currently redirects to this page as the title, and have this page redirect there, since that is the general area we need an article on – the present title is absurdly specific to deserve a Wikipedia article, not to mention somewhat ORy. mgekelly 08:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • comment -- at this point, the debate is about reasonably moving/merging and rewriting/cleaning up, so that I am happy to withdraw my deletion request in favour of that. dab (ᛏ) 10:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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