Talk:September 11 attacks/Archive 10

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Major restructuring

I have put through some major restructuing. The changes put through are as follows:

Wording added for an international audience. Where I could think of a word or spelling used throughout the English-speaking world to replace a US English term, I have done so. Where I couldn’t think of one to use without disturbing the flow of the article, I have not done so.

Comments about 7 WTC that are already reflected in the 7 WTC article redacted. - removed ref to 7WTC from overview.

A lot of stuff about the name has been moved to Significance of '9/11'

A lot of stuff on responsibility has been merged with Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks

Lead section too long - some material removed and put into overview. Reordering of information and redaction of repeated information.

'Investigations' section removed as it didn’t seem to go anywhere. It said there were investigations and there was a report, but didn’t mention its findings.

Prediction section removed. Maybe there is a place to discuss warnings that the U.S. Government and others had before 9/11, the section that I removed doesn't really achieve this.

Conspiracy theory information moved to 9/11 conspiracy theories.

Some links removed as the list seemed too long.

There was also an intention to shorten the article to below 32kbs. I haven’t played around with the piccis, but there seem to be too many and to crop up in odd places now. jguk 19:37, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good trim. Maurreen 23:04, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hijackers

Anyone of you editors in charge of this site, take note-

I severely object to the page September 11, 2001 attacks being as it is in its present form. Have you all failed to recognise to see that many of the supposed Arab-Muslim hijackers are very well alive and were not involved in such attacks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

Here is a list of these 'supposed hijackers' and their stata. Khalid Al-Mihdhar Salem Al-Hazmi - ALIVE - Works at petrochemical plant in Yanbou, Saudi Arabia. "Mr Al-Hazmi is 26 and had just returned to work at a petrochemical complex in the industrial eastern city of Yanbo after a holiday in Saudi Arabia when the hijackers struck. He was accused of hijacking the American Airlines Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon." Telegraph UK - 9/23/01 Waleed M. Al-Shehri - ALIVE - A pilot with Saudi Airlines, studying in Morrocco.A sixth person on the FBI's list, Saudi national Waleed Al Shehri, is living in Casablanca, according to an official with Royal Air Moroc, the Moroccan commercial airline. According to the unnamed official, Al-Shehri lived in Dayton Beach, Fla., where he took flight training at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. Now he works for a Moroccan airline. On Sept. 22, Associated Press reported that Al-Shehri had spoken to the U.S. embassy in Morocco. His photograph was released by the FBI, and has been shown in newspapers and on television around the world. That same Mr. Al-Shehri has turned up in Morocco, proving clearly that he was not a member of the suicide attack. Daily Trust, 24th September 2001 Wail M. Al-Shehri - ALIVE A man by the same name is a pilot, whose father is a Saudi diplomat in Bombay. "I personally talked to both father and son today," said Gaafar Allagany, head of the Saudi Embassy's information center. LA Times 9/21/01 Abdulaziz Al-Omari - ALIVE - Two men, same name, BOTH in Saudi Arabia. Abdulaziz Al-Omari Number 1 Al-Omari lives with his wife and four children in Saudi Arabia. Mr. Al-Omari, a pilot with Saudi Airlines, walked into the US embassy in Jeddah to demand why he was being reported as a dead hijacker in the American media. BBC 23rd September 2001 Omari Number 2 a) "A Saudi man has reported to authorities that he is the real Abdulaziz Al-Omari, and claims his passport was stolen in 1995 while he studied electrical engineering at the University of Denver. Alomari says he informed police of the theft." ABCNews b) "I couldn't believe it when the FBI put me on their list. They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive. I have no idea how to fly a plane. I had nothing to do with this." Telegraph UK - 9/23/01 Marwan Al-Shehhi - ALIVE in Morrocco Said Al-Ghamdi - ALIVE - Student 'Airbus 320' pilot in Tunisia. a) "I was completely shocked. For the past 10 months I have been based in Tunis with 22 other pilots learning to fly an Airbus 320. The FBI provided no evidence of my presumed involvement in the attacks." Telegraph UK - 9/23/01 b) "Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Said Al-Ghamdi." BBC 9/23/01 c) "Abdel Aziz Al-Omari and Saïd Hussein Gharamallah Al-Ghamdi, are well in life, the first in Saudi Arabia and the second in Tunisia for nine months." Wal Fadjri, 21st September 2001 Ahmed Al-Nami - ALIVE - An administrative supervisor with Saudi Arabian Airlines, in Riyadh. "I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked." He had never lost his passport and found it "very worrying" that his identity appeared to have been "stolen" and published by the FBI without any checks. The FBI had said his "possible residence" was Delray Beach in Florida. " Telegraph UK, 23rd September 2001

Furthermore, anyone who believes that although a whole Boeing 757 dematerialised in the attacks yet a passport survived and was found in the rubble has to be crazy. Only a real 'conspiracy nut' could conjure up or believe such things. No investigations were made into the Israeli spies caught celebrating on a NY rooftop and acted suspisciously when pulled over by police, instead they were sent straight back to Israel. Not 1 'al-qa'ida' member has been caught in the USA despite the claim made that there were 500 operatives/sleepers in the USA. Coincidentally, more than 500 Israeli spies were caught since. As well to believe that a plane managed to hit the pentagon, driven by an amateur, and somehow left no visible point of impact directly after the attacks (the images are there, search for them) and left an area of damage smaller than the complete span of the plane, is as well absurd.

Keep looking and you'll see what really happened.

(anon post)

Or maybe, these men are just guys with the same name.

I bet if one of the hijackers was named "John Smith", and then you saw a "John Smith" on the street, you would go "Ooh! Ooh! See, see, Itolju he's not a hijacker the government islying!" (Never mind that there are many John Smiths out there) - Also, the hijackers may have stolen the identities of other people. I have no idea what that BBC guy was smoking when he made that title. WhisperToMe 04:26, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, I am not sure about the others, but at least one of them has their own page and has a heading listed along the lines of "Mistaken Identity". As for the Israeli theory, it is listed under "Responsibility for September 11, 2001 attacks". TheProject 04:29, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Taking for a second your theory to be correct... what do you posit actually happened? What motive is there to blow up the pentagon and who do you think did it? --kizzle 06:06, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

That wasn't a theory, that was someone blowing holes in a theory. Then you ask "what do you posit actually happened?" you are ignoring facts in pursuit of a theory... Let's make up a theory together... that would still be a theory. The point is we don't know, have not been allowed to pursue evidence. The entire building was carted away and disposed of pretty quickly and efficiently. That's enough to make me suspicious. Wasn't it a crime scene? Why was there less forensic detectivery done on the WTC than it seemed to merit? The oklahoma federal building was also buried, under the watchful eye of Wackenhut guards. Who do you think killed Archduke Ferdinand and why? Why were the ships left in Pearl Harbor, even though an admiral advised that it was foolhardy? When was the earliest that the US knew of plans for Pearl Harbor? Why did the US provoke/stage the Gulf of Tonkin incident? Why did the US train Osama binLaden and all those other terrorists? It doesn't matter who we or anyone believes did it or why, the point is we don't know al-Quaeda or any of the named persons in the article did it. It's just as believable that any of a number of other equally well-supported theories are correct. Just because american TV says it was al-Quaeda hijackers doesn't mean it's true. And why was the building 7 info moved to another article? Was it not actually attacked? Because it was a controlled detonation of pre-placed explosive charges? Why did 40-year-plus veteran firefighters say they heard bombs going off inside the building? Do they just not know the difference betweeen a fire and an explosive charge? after 40 years of being a fire proffessional? Why was the insurance company unable to cover the claim on the building, and why did the govt. cover their loss? Why were lies told about how the building was constructed, when there are films available showing the actual construction available to see? How gullible is the American public?Pedant 15:33, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)

but since you asked: Maybe someone wanted an excuse to remove more Vested Rights from the citizens of the United States? I know that the US govt. and some of it's agencies have created phony terrorist attacks before, but in those cases,they later admitted that they were training exercises. AFTER they were reported as terrorist attacks by the news. And after someone proved they were hoax attacks.

Is a training exercise what they call it when there is incontrovertible proof, and call it a terrorist attack when there isn't any proof? Why did the 'airliner' that hit the pentagon leave no wreckage or burn marks on the lawn? Why did it make a hole the size of a missile instead of the size of a plane? Why did eyewitenesses say it was a missile? Why are there no windows on any of the planes?

Sure, by my definition whoever did the 9/11 attacks were terrorists. But who did it is still an open question, or else why is there still an investigation? Who was attacked? The United States? The U.S, government? The citizens of the U.S.? Some particular person or group of people in the WTC? the World Trade Organization? American people's rights? I don't claim to know the answers, but there are questions, and those questions have not been satisfactorily answered.

Jumpers

It's hard to find good info on the jumpers. Here is an informative site. Approxomately 200 people jumped. Each fall lasted about ten seconds. It's not a professional-enough site to be linked from the page, but I thought some of you might find it interesting. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 04:15, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

Fair warning that the site Quadell links to also has some pretty graphic hostage-beheading images if you click around (not on the article he links to). I went to the main page and got something I wasn't looking for. Graft 16:17, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry about that. Not safe for work. Or weak stomachs. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 03:43, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

please change the link to chinese

the link is w:zh:九一一袭击事件,both the zh-ch and z-tw,please use this and delete the zh-tw and zh-cn link.---Vipuser 06:26, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why on earth was the ZH-TW removed in the first place? WhisperToMe 22:39, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bin Laden's Involvement

In the recent tape Bin Laden claims somewhat intimate involvement.

"We agreed with the leader of the group, Mohammed Atta, to perform all attacks within 20 minutes before Bush and his administration were aware of what was going on." - Osama bin Laden

Isn't there incontrovertible proof tha Osama is a liar? Isn't there strong evidence that he and his family have intimate economic connections to the Bush family? Look, CNN is covering up the election fraud, actively changing data to make it fit, do you expect me to believe either CNN or Osama? Conspiracy Theory has become a pejorative phrase since the assassination of JFK, now all one has to do is say conspiracy theory, and everyone just lays down and shuts up... at least that's what we are supposed to do. Look into some of what has classicly been labelled 'conspiracy theory' and see what you really think... how many of those turned out to be true?Pedant