Talk:Qi (Henan)

China: History Low‑importance

	China portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Chinese history (assessed as Low-importance).

Former countries

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles

Qi

I propose changing the name of this article to Qi (state). Hanfresco (talk) 00:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why "Qi (state)" was not chosen as the name for this article in the first place is because there already was another article with the name "Qi (state)" (齊 Qí). Ebizur (talk) 18:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why does "Qi (state)" redirect there? Shouldn't it redirect to the disambiguation page, since there are two Qi states with articles? 65.93.15.125 (talk) 05:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is because the article Qi (state) originally referred to the state in Shandong and there are a lot of incoming links. I just changed Qi (state) to Qi (Shandong) at Qi (disambiguation). And I think that it's fine to maintain "Qi (state)" as a redirect page to "Qi (Shandong)" for convenience. --Pengyanan (talk) 07:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, because it's (by far) the WP:PRIMARY TOPIC. —

Llywelyn II

02:03, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 20:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Qi (State of Qi) → Qi (Henan) – moving back to original name. This article was named Qi (Henan) to distinguish it from Qi (Shandong), as the two states have the same name in English, but are distinguished by location. Someone recently moved Qi (Henan) to Qi (State of Qi), and now there's no way to tell from the name which State of Qi this article is about. Zanhe (talk) 05:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support Can't have the common name repeated in the disambiguator. Kauffner (talk) 08:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support In ictu oculi (talk) 09:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support The disambiguator doesn't even disambiguate. In any case, Qi (Shandong) is the more well-known state of Qi, which is why Qi (state) redirects there. Kanguole 08:48, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chen (state) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:00, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 August 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Qi (Henan) be renamed and moved to Qǐ (state).

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Qi (Henan) → Qǐ (state) – Currently this is the only article in Category:Ancient Chinese states that isn't disambiguated by the word "state". Several other reasons for the move request: Qi County, Hebi and Qi County, Kaifeng are both in Henan; the 12th-century puppet state Qi was also based in Henan; and several other polities named Qi also covered parts or the whole of Henan (including the Shandong-based Qi (state)). Not saying that the word "state" is in any way precise (it's obviously not), but it's good to be consistent with other articles in the same category. Yinweiaiqing (talk) 19:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Waqar💬 08:28, 21 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Fathoms Below (talk) 19:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 04:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I'm not crazy about Jiǎng (state) and Jiāng (state) either. These diacritics are not sufficient disambiguation to the average reader. 162 etc. (talk) 01:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support a rename as Qi (Henan) should be a disambiguation page for this and the two counties. However, Qi (state) and Qǐ (state) is not sufficient enough. Both of these should be renamed to something more descriptive. Gonnym (talk) 09:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Still looking for a dismambiguation – robertsky (talk) 04:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two possible schemes...

By date of founding:

By Chinese characters (similar to what we see for Chinese surnames), i.e. Yu (surname 于) and Yú (surname 余):

Qi (Henan) → Qi (state 杞)
Qi (state) → Qi (state 齊)

– robertsky (talk) 05:30, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Either of those would be fine with me. The one based on dates is probably easier for readers who don't speak any Chinese. I agree the current situation is no good, as Qi (state) is an incomplete disambiguation. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 21:39, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@162 etc. thoughts on these? Charlotte (Queen of Hearts • talk) 20:57, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No objection to these proposed alternatives. 162 etc. (talk) 22:02, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose disambiguating Qi (state), especially using date of formation. It is far and away the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. One of the most powerful and populous states of the Eastern Zhou period, with a whole set of articles on its rulers and other notable people, had its own orthography, home to the Jixia Academy which produced classic works of literature, the usurpation of the original ruling clan by a ministerial house was one of the watershed events dividing the Spring and Autumn period from the Warring States period, and we even have a (not great) article about that.

Qǐ (杞) was a minor polity remembered for almost nothing except that Confucius heard a rumour about it and was disappointed by visiting in person?

When people in the field of early China talk about the state of Qi, they always mean Qi (state), and will disambiguate with a diacritic and/or native name when they refer to Qǐ (杞).

~~Does it matter that Qǐ (杞) is disambiguated with "Henan"?~~ Qi (state) has over six times as many incoming links: Qí Qǐ

~~I think the present name is ok, but~~ Qi (state 杞) or Qǐ (state) would be an improvement. Disambiguating with an approximate century of establishment would be a disimprovement. Folly Mox (talk) 00:26, 15 September 2024 (UTC) edited after rereading the OP, which I saw a month ago but forgot about except for the bit about the title not being disambiguated with the term "(state)". 00:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, right, and Qi had its own Great Wall too. A deepcat search in Category:Qi (state) returns 72 articles. Qǐ (杞) of course does not have its own category. Even Sima Qian described its affairs of state as not worth recording! (cited in the article) Folly Mox (talk) 00:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, even the ~110 incoming wikilinks to Qi (Henan) are mostly just from pages transcluding Template:Zhou dynasty topics (n = 83). A further few are from list articles like List of political entities in the 16th century BC, and from hatnotes on articles such as Jian of Qi (a Qí 齊 person). As far as I can tell, there are only a handful of articles that link Qi (Henan) because of actual encyclopaedic context. Hopefully this concludes my lengthiest ever WP:PRIMARYTOPIC argument. Folly Mox (talk) 01:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If people don't like Qi (state 杞) or Qǐ (state), how would they feel about Qi (ancient minor state) or Qi (ancient Kaifeng), with or without the caron diacritic or native name as additional disambiguator? Folly Mox (talk) 01:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose move of Qi (state). Folly Mox makes a convincing case that this polity is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC per long-term significance; looking at that argument in conjunction with the pageview stats (where Qi (state) outperforms Qi (Henan) by more than 10:1) convinces me that a WP:PDAB is justifiable for this case. Support moving Qi (Henan) to Qǐ (state). This title is unambiguous, WP:CONCISE, and WP:CONSISTENT; while the diacritic is certainly a very minor detail, I think readers interested in ancient Chinese topics will generally be aware that such diacritics are common in Romanizations of Chinese, so significant confusion is unlikely. Secondary preference for Qi (ancient minor state), which is unquestionably unambiguous, but at the cost of being somewhat clunkier. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]