Talk:Macau/Archive 4
Historic Jewish community?
[edit]If this is going to be in the Historic Jewish Communities category, maybe someone should explain why somewhere in the article. 98.216.159.236 (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Slaves in Macau were sent to Goa not Portugal
[edit]Most slaves from Macau was exported to Portuguese Goa, not Brazil or Portugal, and most were females/ prostitutes sent because of the lack of women in Goa for the Portuguese to marry.
Seeing as I did not make the mistake, I do not feel the need to replace it, if User:El0i wants to correct it with a paragraph on the slave trade to Goa then he can do it himself.
there is a reason why it was the viceroy of Goa who made it punishable by a fine of 1,000 ducats to trade in chinese, because most of it was IN Goa and not portugal, and the decree from the King of Portugal against slavery in macau of chinese, was directed specifically at Goa and Macau, not portugal.
There were very few slaves from Macau actually in Portugal itself.
There is also the separate Coolie trade of Chinese laborers to the americas which took place in Macau which can also be added by whoever wants to edit it.江南吳越 (talk) 03:34, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
The sources make very clear that most macau/canton slaves were females sent to goa to serve as servants or prostitutes, and the rest of the slaves in macau were africans.江南吳越 (talk) 03:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
There were only a few boys and girls who were bought as children, and they were always sold in Macau and Goa itself not portugal
The portuguese were accused of kidnapping Chinese children to be either sold as slaves in India (goa), or to be eaten /cannibalized by the portuguese who were aleged to have liked human flesh
http://books.google.com/books?id=LP9q1dzVRYQC&pg=PA87&dq=Some+Chinese+children+were+indeed+kidnapped+and+sold+as+slaves+and+domestic+servants+to+Macau+or&hl=en&ei=D0u7Tu7KFMPn0QGHp_zeCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 江南吳越 (talk • contribs) 03:55, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- The content is sourced and the source does say some of the slaves were sent to Portugal and Brazil. [1]. El0i (talk) 11:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- I changed some wording like "boys" to "children", and added information on Goa slave atrade and laws banning the trade, I also deleted what I believe was one sentence about an individual owning a slave, since that is an extremely minor and irrelevant detail, but I left the general things intact. I also deleted the sentence on the number of slaves in Portugal since I could find that number virtually nowhere else and its not reliable. Everything else is left.江南吳越 (talk) 23:48, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Graphic representation of Macau's Chinese name is wrong
[edit]
The writing in the right is wrong. The correct writing is 澳 instead of 澳 (note the stroke above 米), as evidenced by the emblem of Macau (below). Can anyone please correct it? --Jabo-er (talk) 05:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- You are wrong! This additional stroke is weird! You won't find this character as unicode.--89.14.100.221 (talk) 02:33, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
- It is not wrong, there are 2 graphic variants of this character. The one used by most computers and used throughout the article has 16 strokes but the one which is used in the emblem has 17 strokes and is the version from the Kangxi Dictionary.
- For those who can read Chinese, there is actually a site with the variants (go to the 字源字形 tab of the following page: 澳 on Zdict.net). This shows the 16-strokes graphy as being used in Mainland China and the 17-strokes graphy used in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau. This is even though all dictionaries list the simplified and traditional forms of this character as identical 16-atrokes character... --Pignoof (talk) 09:23, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how to contribute to this discussion: the two big characters at the top of this section are exactly the same on my system (both have the slash). I'm using CentOS 6.2 + Firefox 10. But by all means change the picture if you want to be pedantic. Deryck C. 10:14, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
- For those who can read Chinese, there is actually a site with the variants (go to the 字源字形 tab of the following page: 澳 on Zdict.net). This shows the 16-strokes graphy as being used in Mainland China and the 17-strokes graphy used in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau. This is even though all dictionaries list the simplified and traditional forms of this character as identical 16-atrokes character... --Pignoof (talk) 09:23, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
- But the character in this emblem got an extra stroke above the character rice. 218.250.159.142 (talk) 22:48, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Etymology and historical sightlines
[edit]This is an important point – in this case with regard to this [2]. In any subject we're not specially educated in, we tend to think from our own viewpoint, and to overlook anything that speaks against that, not out of carelessness but simply because we can't see the signs. E.g., in history, we tend to impose contemporary ideas about national state, "national" language etc. backwards on times before those notions were even known. And this encyclopedia isn't for those already well versed in the respective subject – it is for those who may want to become. 83.253.228.202 (talk) 00:34, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Insufficient citations
[edit]This article is lacking citations in many parts. There should be at least one citation for every paragraph. That is currently not the case. There are citations needed tags that need to be addressed. These issues need to be fixed in order for the article to maintain its GA status.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:23, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
GA Reassessment
[edit]- This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Macau/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.
This orange-tagged article clearly fails criteria 2b. There are many paragraphs lacking citations. I brought this issue up at the talk page a while ago, but there doesn't seem to be much interest.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:01, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Result: Delist - It's been a week. There doesn't appear to be much interest in improving the article.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
GA Nominee
[edit]I use to frequent this page before my hiatus from Wiki, and saw it had lost its GA status since then. I fixed the citations with various methods in the history section, and I feel that it is ready to become a GA again. If anyone that does the review encounters any problems/issues with the article, do not hesitate to contact me on my page! LeftAire (talk) 18:26, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
GA Nominee
[edit]I still need to do some rewriting and add some citations before this is nominated, so I removed the GA nominee for the time being. LeftAire (talk) 12:19, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Update Climate
[edit]the data in the climate section is very out of date, most of it being more in keeping with 1914 than 2014 weather data. Please compare 2000-2012 climate data with those in the weatherbox (although the same outdated information is in the text of this section as well):
| Climate data for Macau (1991–2020, extremes 1901–present) | |||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Month | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec | Year |
| Record high °C (°F) | 29.1 (84.4) |
30.2 (86.4) |
31.5 (88.7) |
35.3 (95.5) |
37.5 (99.5) |
36.9 (98.4) |
38.9 (102.0) |
38.5 (101.3) |
38.1 (100.6) |
36.0 (96.8) |
34.2 (93.6) |
30.0 (86.0) |
38.9 (102.0) |
| Mean daily maximum °C (°F) | 18.6 (65.5) |
19.2 (66.6) |
21.4 (70.5) |
25.1 (77.2) |
28.7 (83.7) |
30.5 (86.9) |
31.4 (88.5) |
31.5 (88.7) |
30.8 (87.4) |
28.5 (83.3) |
24.7 (76.5) |
20.3 (68.5) |
25.9 (78.6) |
| Daily mean °C (°F) | 15.2 (59.4) |
16.1 (61.0) |
18.6 (65.5) |
22.3 (72.1) |
25.8 (78.4) |
27.8 (82.0) |
28.4 (83.1) |
28.3 (82.9) |
27.5 (81.5) |
25.1 (77.2) |
21.3 (70.3) |
16.9 (62.4) |
22.8 (73.0) |
| Mean daily minimum °C (°F) | 12.7 (54.9) |
13.9 (57.0) |
16.5 (61.7) |
20.3 (68.5) |
23.7 (74.7) |
25.7 (78.3) |
26.1 (79.0) |
25.9 (78.6) |
25.1 (77.2) |
22.7 (72.9) |
18.8 (65.8) |
14.3 (57.7) |
20.5 (68.9) |
| Record low °C (°F) | −1.8 (28.8) |
0.4 (32.7) |
3.2 (37.8) |
8.5 (47.3) |
13.8 (56.8) |
18.5 (65.3) |
19.3 (66.7) |
19.0 (66.2) |
13.2 (55.8) |
9.5 (49.1) |
5.0 (41.0) |
0.0 (32.0) |
−1.8 (28.8) |
| Average precipitation mm (inches) | 34.2 (1.35) |
43.9 (1.73) |
80.0 (3.15) |
153.5 (6.04) |
286.0 (11.26) |
373.7 (14.71) |
290.7 (11.44) |
331.4 (13.05) |
227.8 (8.97) |
75.1 (2.96) |
39.0 (1.54) |
31.3 (1.23) |
1,966.6 (77.43) |
| Average precipitation days | 5.8 | 8.9 | 11.4 | 11.6 | 14.1 | 17.7 | 16.6 | 16.2 | 12.3 | 6.2 | 4.9 | 5.0 | 130.9 |
| Average relative humidity (%) | 74.9 | 80.5 | 85.0 | 86.3 | 84.9 | 84.6 | 82.7 | 82.1 | 78.3 | 72.5 | 72.6 | 70.8 | 79.6 |
| Mean monthly sunshine hours | 126.5 | 85.7 | 74.8 | 94.6 | 135.5 | 159.0 | 211.3 | 188.2 | 178.3 | 192.2 | 158.1 | 145.1 | 1,749.3 |
| Source: Macao Meteorological and Geophysical Bureau[1][2] | |||||||||||||
Although the databox claims to reflect 1971-2000 data, the source is actually from 1900-2000. — robbie page talk 12:16, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Done I Just updated the climate data of Macau to the most recent 30 year period (1981-2010). I did find out that the previous source was incorrect so I updated it to link the reader to the data and not the period 1900-2000. Ssbbplayer (talk) 06:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- ^ "Macao Climate: 30-year Statistics of some meteorological elements". Macao Meteorological and Geophysical Bureau. Retrieved 19 March 2021.
- ^ "Macao Climate: Extreme Value of some meteorological elements (1901-2020)". Macao Meteorological and Geophysical Bureau. Retrieved 19 March 2021.
Climate Update Box on Geography section
[edit]Hello! I'm just curious, given some of the above information, if the box stating that the information given of the yearly climate of Macau needs to be removed. It seems to be updated, though I can be wrong if anyone wishes to state something that I might have looked over. Thanks for reading! LeftAire (talk) 20:02, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
GA Review
[edit]| GA toolbox |
|---|
| Reviewing |
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Macau/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 06:53, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Will review this soon. Cheers, Sainsf (talk · contribs) 06:53, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Here are my comments. Pinging FutureTrillionaire, LeftAire and Ssbbplayer as well, who I feel are interested in this article. Sainsf (talk · contribs) 09:22, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
- General
- Someone needs to ensure the sources have been placed as inline citations to what they support. The nominator does not seem to have edited the article at all, and I am not sure who basically wrote what we are reading now. Without someone to interact with directly, this might be difficult work.
- There may be some close paraphrasing [3]
- There are a lot of duplicate links. These can be detected and fixed using this tool.
- Fix this link [4]
- Etymology
- The languages need to be wikilinked
- I think translation to only one language should be enough. Too many translations may add clutter.
- Source for last line?
- History
- Too long, needs subheadings for better navigation. Also, the text appears choppy, paras need to be combined.
- At a few places some lines appear unsourced, while at a few other places there is some overciting.
- But their pride was shocked by the indifference with which the Chinese treated them Wording appears a bit too strong.
- The Dutch Governor Jan Coen said after the defeat "After the defeat, the Dutch Governor Jan Coen said" would read better
- In the most serious Add "riot" after "serious"
- Executive
- Fernando Chui is the current Chief Executive Wording like "current" and "recent" should be avoided, say exactly from which year he has been active. And is the information up to date?
- Source for the last line?
- Military
- Completely unsourced.
- Geography
- The two images on the right are creating unnecessary blank space, this needs to be fixed.
- It also has 41 kilometres (25 mi) of coastline "also" is not needed
- yet only 310 metres (1,000 ft) Why "yet"? What is the contrast?
- Source for the last line?
- Economy
- The clothing industry has provided ... Macau government revenue when are these figures of?
- The World Bank classifies Macau as a high income economy When was this done?
- Subheadings may be used. Also, there is some choppiness about the section.
- with over 50% of the arrivals coming from mainland China and another 30% from Hong Kong. Source?
- Reasons for this fall of revenue are related to the slowdown that the Chinese economy is having officials pursue a corruption crackdown that's confined in lavish spending Meaning?
- Monetary system
- which is currently pegged to the Hong Kong dollar When is "currently"?
- The name pataca is a Portuguese word "Pataca" in quotes
- There are "citation needed" tags.
- Wikilink escudo
- Demographics
- (18,428 persons/km2 in a 2004 projection 47,728/sq mi) Needs to be written properly
- According to The World Factbook, Macau has the fourth highest life expectancy in the world Once again we need to know when this data was recorded. Same for 4th para
- between 2005, 2007 and 2009 Does this mean "between 2005 and 2009"?
- Education
- A fifteen-year free education is currently being offered Say since when.
- Currently, there is only one school in Macau where Portuguese is the medium of instruction. Source? When is "currently"?
- Health care
- Some parts are unsourced.
- "Currently" is used at places.
- Transport
- The trishaw, a hybrid of...is usually 15 minutes. Source?
- Culture
- Source for 1st para and last line of 3rd para?
- Notable people
- Completely unsourced.
- Sports
- Completely unsourced.
That's all for now. Sainsf (talk · contribs) 09:22, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Sainsf: Thanks a lot. I agree this article requires a lot of further work. Again, please don't fail this just yet, I am trying to do some fixing according to your suggestions. Wishva de Silva (talk) 08:58, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
@Wishva de Silva: You have been given more than a week to fix the issues, but it doesn't seem appreciable work has been done here or can likely be done in a short time so that the nomination passes. I am going to fail this for now, but I hope this is renominated soon, after necessary changes have been made. Sainsf (talk · contribs) 12:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Languages
[edit]According to the current version, the official languages are Chinese and Portuguese, with note to "Chinese" (link to "Chinese Language") saying 'The Macau Basic Law states that the official languages are "Chinese and Portuguese." It does not explicitly specify the standard for "Chinese". While Mandarin and Simplified Chinese characters are used as the spoken and written standards in mainland China, Cantonese and Traditional Chinese characters are the long-established de facto standards in Macau.'
I agree that the language spoken is mainly Cantonese rather than Mandarin. But the note is otherwise very problematic: 1. It implies that Mandarin and Cantonese are just two ways to speak the Chinese language, as the traditional and simplified characters are two ways to write the language, which can be easily converted. But if you ask Mandarin native speakers who do not speak Cantonese to read the wikipedia pages in Cantonese, most people would have problems understanding the text. They are just written differently. The grammar and vocabulary are different. 2. The Macau Basic Law may not explicitly states that the term "中文" (Chinese) mentioned in Article 9 is Mandarin, but the Basic Law itself is explicitly written in Mandarin. Ask any Cantonese speaker, no one would tell you that it is written in Cantonese. Additionally, when people talk about a language called "中文" that can be spoken, it generally refers to Mandarin. Lysimachi (talk) 20:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- To your first point, I don't actually see that implication in the quoted text. I think you are reading into it too much from your own natural bias. I guess the second point makes sense, the article lacks reference. There probably is a reference that the text was based on — because they are arguing that even though the official and legal language is basically Putonghua, people still use (perhaps even in legal contexts from time to time) Cantonese. — robbie page talk 12:59, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
- Simplified and traditional characters can't be easily converted and there are more than two ways to write the language. Who told you all this? Every local variety uses different words from the standard language, this doesn't exclusively apply to Chinese. In fact, every standard language is a promoted local language. --2.245.170.92 (talk) 23:57, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
Why is there nothing about protests?
[edit]The "History" section ends with "The Chinese government assumed formal sovereignty over Macau on 20 December 1999. The economy since then has continued to prosper with the sustained growth of tourism from mainland China and the construction of new casinos." It might as well say "and they all lived happily ever after". Yet there are Wikipedia articles on the 2007 Macau labour protest, the 2010 Macau labour protest and the 2010 Macau transfer of sovereignty anniversary protest, and loads of news articles on the 2014 protests.[5][6][7][8][9]. Surely they ought to get some mention in the article? 86.41.40.63 (talk) 09:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Protests happen everywhere once in a while, you might as well add every happy event. This isn't just part of the overall history. I just don't get why people are so obsessed with this. --2.245.170.92 (talk) 00:07, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
Way too many photos to me in this article
[edit]We should delete some to ensure the article quality, this is an article not a photo gallery. Wishva de Silva (talk) 09:02, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
"Holy Mary" (photo caption)
[edit]This presumably refers to Jesus's supposed mother in the Christian religion, but this figure is never referred to in English as "Holy Mary". Possible names are "the Virgin Mary", occasionally "St Mary", and also "the Mother of God".188.230.248.85 (talk) 17:36, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
Do people in Macau really drive on the left?
[edit]
Just curious, since Macau was a former colony of Portugal, which drives on right, my instinct tells me this should also be true for Macau. So any people from Macau or having been to Macau can clarify that? Thanks a lot.--Tricia Takanawa (talk) 15:49, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Traffic in Portugal (and all its colonies) drove on the left until 1928; Macao, however, did not change at that date because China drove on the left and continued to do so until 1946, by which time it was (probably for the same reasons as those which held sway in Hong Kong) thought more convenient not to switch. -- Picapica (talk) 02:43, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- They drive on the left, or at least they all were at the end of last year. Mfield (talk) 15:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- According to Right- and left-hand traffic#Hong Kong and Macau:
- Macau, a former Portuguese colony, historically followed Hong Kong in driving on the left because most of the RHD cars in Macau were imported through Hong Kong. Macau did not follow either Mainland China in 1946 or Portugal in 1928 in switching to driving on the right.
- --76.167.241.45 (talk) 22:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Cantarin or Mandonese?
[edit]After reading the so interesting:
I still have no clear whether " 中華人民共和國澳門特別行政區 " is Cantonese/Mandarin or Simplified/Traditional as I can read in Hong Kong. Can anyone clarify this? ※ Sobreira ◣◥ (parlez) 14:29, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Sobreira: Traditional Chinese characters; doesn't distinguish between Mandarin or Cantonese. Deryck C. 10:45, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Requested move 8 July 2018
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move at this time. I don't think anyone can argue this point. The nomination was lacking; no sources at all and an erroneous criterion for moving. (WP:OFFICALNAME and all that.) I saw sources that said that British English prefers the O version but no reason why we should care about specifically British English only. The fact that sources are split due to the AP Stylebook does not change the fact that sources are split. Nevertheless, many good reasons to change were listed below, as well. I look forward to a much better-argued nomination later on down the road. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 11:59, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Macau → Macao – Macao is the official name of the city in English. NYKTNE (talk) 11:08, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose; the official name has basically no bearing on how the article should be titled. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), Wikipedia:Official names and Kiev. If we were to use the official name the article would be titled "Macao Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China". Both "Macau" and "Macao" are in common use, and even the government apparently uses both according to Names of Macau. "Macao" is also not used in Portuguese, an official language of Macau (whereas English isn't one), and would be considered incorrect spelling in Portuguese. Jc86035 (talk) 11:42, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Jc86035: That is incorrect. The government never uses Macau in its English sites and neither the official authorities. I believe the Names of Macau article is bit misleading. Please correct me if the official websites use Macau in English pages. NYKTNE (talk) 09:17, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @NYKTNE: Here you go. The government does appear to prefer "Macao" in English usage, but there are a lot of exceptions, partly because of inconsistent usage and partly because of inconsistency in the names of third-party organizations. Google Ngrams says "Macao" is historically more popular, but English-language usage of "Macau" increased significantly during the 1980s (possibly as a result of internationalization as well as Macau becoming a current topic due to the handovers). Jc86035 (talk) 09:36, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Jc86035: The site you've suggested may have the word "Macau" but when you actually press the links and browse the sites, most of them use "Macao", for instance, they use "About Macao Post", "Government of the Macao Special Administrative Region", etc; the only one is "Macau Grand Prix Organizing Committee", no more other exceptions. Moreover, you can't use search history to determine if that's the correct name. Many people use "Porto Rico" instead of Puerto Rico, then should the US Government and its Wiki article use Porto Rico instead? NYKTNE (talk) 09:43, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @NYKTNE: Here you go. The government does appear to prefer "Macao" in English usage, but there are a lot of exceptions, partly because of inconsistent usage and partly because of inconsistency in the names of third-party organizations. Google Ngrams says "Macao" is historically more popular, but English-language usage of "Macau" increased significantly during the 1980s (possibly as a result of internationalization as well as Macau becoming a current topic due to the handovers). Jc86035 (talk) 09:36, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per Jc86035. The editor whose username is Z0 15:04, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose move. WP:COMMONNAME. Possible snow close? ONR (talk) 02:42, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- Except "Macau" is not the common name in English, the only thing en.WP cares about in such a case; see proof below. Pings: Old Naval Rooftops, Jc86035 Horserice, Roman Spinner, Bazonka – please reconsider. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:44, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Oppose per above reasons. Horserice (talk) 02:51, 9 July 2018 (UTC)- Oppose. "Macao" once was the "official" English-language form {Macao (film)}, in the same manner that Peking, Bombay, Calcutta, Madras or Kiev were once "official" English forms for those cities. All those forms, however, are now outdated. Such key sources as the United States Department of State, The World Factbook or the world's largest publisher of travel guidebooks, Lonely Planet now refer to those localities as Macau, Beijing, Kolkata, Chennai and Kyiv. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:05, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Roman Spinner: As far as I know, the first 2 examples of yours, namely Peking and Bombay, are rather invalid because Peking was actually an inaccurate romanization as the locals usually pronounce as Beijing and, therefore, Beijing is adopted for accuracy later on; Bombay was an Anglicised name made by the Portuguese after they named the city and yet Mumbai was the pronunciation of the city's name in Marathi. To be honest, I am unfamiliar with the remaining examples but, with all due respect, I believe your examples may not share similarity with the case of Macao and hence cannot have a suitable analogy drawn. Plus, you claim that Macao once was the official English language but you are partially wrong as Macao is still the official English name. NYKTNE (talk) 09:17, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @NYKTNE: Well, pronunciations of placenames and transcriptions change over time. We have pretty solid evidence that, for example, the pronunciation of the name of the northern capital was closer to "Peking" and "Beijing" as recently as two centuries ago (see Mandarin (late imperial lingua franca) and Chinese postal romanization). Prevalent historical placenames often preserve historical pronunciations of both the source language and the target language and we should avoid judging the quality of a historical name without sufficient knowledge of how the respective languages have changed since the name was first written down. Deryck C. 10:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Deryck Chan: Thank you for your meaningful content. However, I presume Peking is the Southern pronuncation of Beijing. Furthermore, I don't deny that names change over time and that is why Peking needs to be changed to Beijing and Bombay has to be amended to Mumbai in order to suit present pronunciation. Again, this has nothing to do with "Macau" vs "Macao". Even though the historical name of Macao is Macau, that was a Portuguese name; and the present English name of the city should be in line with the official authorities. NYKTNE (talk) 10:37, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @NYKTNE: The government's mandated name doesn't necessarily matter if people in real life also call it something else. There was a failed RM recently to move Tiananmen Square to Tian'anmen Square, for example. "Macau" is not the historical name; the article says "Macao" was the Portuguese name until an orthography reform. (Note that Mumbai and Bombay have separate etymologies, so as in Macau it's a situation of the newer name becoming more commonly used.) Jc86035 (talk) 11:47, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Jc86035: I apologise for my ambiguity: I meant Macau was a name with long history. Also, even Macao has a Porgutuese heritage, it is in official English use currently and hence should be the English title of the city. The way we call it should be of no importance to decide the correct spelling of it. (Bombay is an Anglicised name of Portuguese name, Mumbai is the correct name of the original local name) NYKTNE (talk) 17:00, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @NYKTNE: The government's mandated name doesn't necessarily matter if people in real life also call it something else. There was a failed RM recently to move Tiananmen Square to Tian'anmen Square, for example. "Macau" is not the historical name; the article says "Macao" was the Portuguese name until an orthography reform. (Note that Mumbai and Bombay have separate etymologies, so as in Macau it's a situation of the newer name becoming more commonly used.) Jc86035 (talk) 11:47, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Deryck Chan: Thank you for your meaningful content. However, I presume Peking is the Southern pronuncation of Beijing. Furthermore, I don't deny that names change over time and that is why Peking needs to be changed to Beijing and Bombay has to be amended to Mumbai in order to suit present pronunciation. Again, this has nothing to do with "Macau" vs "Macao". Even though the historical name of Macao is Macau, that was a Portuguese name; and the present English name of the city should be in line with the official authorities. NYKTNE (talk) 10:37, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @NYKTNE: Well, pronunciations of placenames and transcriptions change over time. We have pretty solid evidence that, for example, the pronunciation of the name of the northern capital was closer to "Peking" and "Beijing" as recently as two centuries ago (see Mandarin (late imperial lingua franca) and Chinese postal romanization). Prevalent historical placenames often preserve historical pronunciations of both the source language and the target language and we should avoid judging the quality of a historical name without sufficient knowledge of how the respective languages have changed since the name was first written down. Deryck C. 10:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Roman Spinner: As far as I know, the first 2 examples of yours, namely Peking and Bombay, are rather invalid because Peking was actually an inaccurate romanization as the locals usually pronounce as Beijing and, therefore, Beijing is adopted for accuracy later on; Bombay was an Anglicised name made by the Portuguese after they named the city and yet Mumbai was the pronunciation of the city's name in Marathi. To be honest, I am unfamiliar with the remaining examples but, with all due respect, I believe your examples may not share similarity with the case of Macao and hence cannot have a suitable analogy drawn. Plus, you claim that Macao once was the official English language but you are partially wrong as Macao is still the official English name. NYKTNE (talk) 09:17, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. English-language Google search for Macao, excluding Macau = 108m results; Macau excluding Macao = 200m results. Bazonka (talk) 20:56, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- Support per WP:UE. As this Google Ngram shows, the English name is historically vastly more common and still marginally more common than the Portuguese name in print sources. — AjaxSmack 01:01, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- Support per WP:UE. AjaxSmack's more proper use of Google Ngrams is correct, and is confirmed by further constraining the searches to British then American English [10][11], in turn [It's aways good to do that test, because the "English" corpus doesn't always return the same results as the British+American ones viewed back to back, due to different books being used to generate the corpora.] The common name in English, which is what WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RECOGNIZABLE care about, is clearly "Macao". The fact that it also agrees with the official name is just a cherry on top. "Macau" saw a spike from ca. 1982 to 2002, mostly in American publications, but this has slacked off and "Macao" still leads. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:41, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Further bit: If you construct a Google Advanced Search query on "Macau", exclude "Macao", "Wikipedia", "wiki", "blog", and "forum", constrain it to English only, and limit the results to within the last year; run the search, then switch it to the News filter; you find that wile "Macau" does lead in newswriting (almost certainly because of the preference of the AP Stylebook, which about 95% of American news publishers follow to the letter; see below), it barely leads now. You get 4 pages of results, while if you flip the search to "Macao", excluding "Macau" and the other terms, you get 3 pages of results. Something has clearly changed, when news results for the entire decade+ were showing about a 2:1 lead of Macau over Macao (i.e., just do an unconstrained Google News search on "Macau -Macao" and vice versa). Combined with book results always favoring Macao, other than a brief spike toward Macau in the 1990s, Macao would seem to be the winner overall. In scholarly publications (via Google Scholar) they're almost tied, but this includes non-English results, and I don't know of a way to exclude them. Anyway, this would not be the first time that the AP Stylebook has individually put a major skew on search results and thus on common name discussions. If you search "AP Stylebook Macau", you find lots of individual publisher style guides declaring that they follow AP and calling for "Macau" (the one exception I could find (CFA Institute) confusingly mixed the spellings.) This is a clear indication that AP is causing the "Macau" spelling to retain some currency. Non-AP publishers have moved to "Macao", following the official name change. That's the thing that changed. The 2018 ed. of AP has been out for only 1 month, and its preparation may have been completed after the official name change, so it may not be until 2019 that AP news people stop using "Macau"; anyone have the 2018 ed.? My latest is 2015, and definitely uses "Macau".
As noted in way earlier threads, the ISO country name is "Macao" (code MO), and its CCTLD is .mo. Oxford dictionaries list "Macao", have no entry for "Macau", and just give that as a Portuguese spelling at the "Macao" entry. This is mirrored at https://en.oxfordditioncaries.com/definition/macau; the entry exists, but just as Portuguese for "Macao". Dictionary.com, which includes the Random House Unabridged (US) and Collins (UK), has a proper entry at "Macao", but gives "Macau" only in full-on Portuguese form as "Macáu", with nothing but a cross-reference to "Macao". Merriam-Webster.com has a "Macao" entry, and just lists "Macau" as a variant; going to that entry redirects back to the "Macao" one. So, RS on English language usage strongly prefer "Macao". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:24, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: Ngrams also shows that Mumbai is still less popular than Bombay, so it could be a systemic sampling bias towards people who get their books published. Jc86035 (talk) 05:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- As with "Peking" for "Beijing", "Bombay" shows up in a lot of phrases and names in English ("The Bombay Company", "Bombay Sapphire gin", "Bombay red" [both an onion cultivar and a popular furniture color], and the names of many, many restaurants). Bombay was a also a state of India, not just a city; it was a big place with a large number of people, many of whom brought the name into use in English in multiple places. Such complications don't seem to exist for Macau/Macao in English; phrases and proper names that use either aren't common in our language, the population is comparatively small, and there aren't millions of Macau expats and the descendants in the UK and the US exerting an influence and keeping an old spelling alive. A statistical sampling error can't possibly account for Macao being favored over Macau in English by such a wide margin for so long, nor can things like "Macao Grill" and "House of Macao" restaurant names here and there. There aren't any major businesses or product lines bearing the name. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:51, 12 July 2018 (UTC); revised 06:38, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: Ngrams also shows the old name to be much more popular for Pusan/Busan and Chungking/Chongqing, although both of those are probably affected by World War II-related usage. In any case, authors who have mentioned Macau and who went to high school after 1985 (i.e. those who were more likely to prefer the newer spelling due to the ongoing change in usage) and got their books published and into Ngrams between then and 2008 are probably significantly outnumbered by the authors who have similarly mentioned Macau but were born before the 1970s (who would have been 38 or older in 2008). There are a fair amount of British expats an hour away in Hong Kong, and "Macao" has existed for centuries longer than "Macau". There are almost certainly other variables that that graph doesn't factor in. That Ngrams doesn't have data after 2008 also makes it difficult to rely on for deciding which one is more popular now, even if it's useful for analyzing some historical trends. It's not like the world didn't change in the intervening years. Jc86035 (talk) 06:47, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- That last is why I double-checked the news results; the idea that news favors "Macau" 2:1 turns out to have been a) a historical blip that is coming to an end, and b) due to one stylebook skewing the results. Even with that skew still in play, the usage is almost tied now in newsprint. As for the rest, we probably don't care much why a particular usage is more common, just that it is – for the topic in question (the real place), not in derived usage. RS really seem to be using Beijing and Mumbai in direct reference to the cities now, even if Peking and Bombay survive in other usage; I don't know if that's going on with the other two; I can say that Chongqing and other q-laden spellings are not common in English for extended usages (Chun King was a leading Chinese food brand in the US until recently, for example; the old-style spellings like Szechuan for Sichuan remain dominant in everyday English for foodstuffs and the like). The question is whether references to the city in books and news today are mostly using Chongqing, and what current dictionaries [that have geographical-name entries] use; I would guess that they are in favor of Chongqing or we wouldn't've moved the article. However, we are going to care when the RS results are severely skewed by a single source like AP Stylebook; that doesn't tell us anything about actual broad usage, only about what a certain cluster of publishers prefer. Modern book publishing, up to 2008, shows Macao in the lead in English [12] (and consistently so back to the 19th c.), except for a "Macau" spike in the 1990s which ended ca. 1997, with usage of both steady for more than a decade afterward, "Macao" clearly back in the lead. There's no reason to think this changed between 2008 and now, other than more in favor of "Macao" due to the official change. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:46, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: Ngrams also shows the old name to be much more popular for Pusan/Busan and Chungking/Chongqing, although both of those are probably affected by World War II-related usage. In any case, authors who have mentioned Macau and who went to high school after 1985 (i.e. those who were more likely to prefer the newer spelling due to the ongoing change in usage) and got their books published and into Ngrams between then and 2008 are probably significantly outnumbered by the authors who have similarly mentioned Macau but were born before the 1970s (who would have been 38 or older in 2008). There are a fair amount of British expats an hour away in Hong Kong, and "Macao" has existed for centuries longer than "Macau". There are almost certainly other variables that that graph doesn't factor in. That Ngrams doesn't have data after 2008 also makes it difficult to rely on for deciding which one is more popular now, even if it's useful for analyzing some historical trends. It's not like the world didn't change in the intervening years. Jc86035 (talk) 06:47, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- As with "Peking" for "Beijing", "Bombay" shows up in a lot of phrases and names in English ("The Bombay Company", "Bombay Sapphire gin", "Bombay red" [both an onion cultivar and a popular furniture color], and the names of many, many restaurants). Bombay was a also a state of India, not just a city; it was a big place with a large number of people, many of whom brought the name into use in English in multiple places. Such complications don't seem to exist for Macau/Macao in English; phrases and proper names that use either aren't common in our language, the population is comparatively small, and there aren't millions of Macau expats and the descendants in the UK and the US exerting an influence and keeping an old spelling alive. A statistical sampling error can't possibly account for Macao being favored over Macau in English by such a wide margin for so long, nor can things like "Macao Grill" and "House of Macao" restaurant names here and there. There aren't any major businesses or product lines bearing the name. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:51, 12 July 2018 (UTC); revised 06:38, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: Ngrams also shows that Mumbai is still less popular than Bombay, so it could be a systemic sampling bias towards people who get their books published. Jc86035 (talk) 05:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- Support per AjaxSmack and SMcCandlish. VibeScepter (talk) (contributions) 06:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- Weak support. Rather than showing overwhelming usage of one over another, the Google results show that current usage is clearly split between "Macao" and "Macau" without an overwhelming winner. In that case we should give some weight to the official point of view of Macanese government and organizations, which prefer "Macao" in English. The search results could also be polluted by English-language sources which consciously adopt the Portuguese spelling because Portuguese is an official language of Macao/Macau. I wouldn't trust Lonely Planet on the matter of English names of placenames because they have a habit of adopting a transliteration of the current native language name over traditional English names, e.g. Kyiv over Kiev, Thessaloniki over Thessalonica etc. All said, I think this is a marginal case. I've come down on the "Macao" side but I'm not massively fussed. Deryck C. 09:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- See also some of the stuff I added later, e.g. dictionary results (that is, reliable sources on English usage). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- I must challenge the above statement, "I wouldn't trust Lonely Planet on the matter of English names of placenames because they have a habit of adopting a transliteration of the current native language name over traditional English names, e.g. Kyiv over Kiev, Thessaloniki over Thessalonica etc". Lonely Planet does not have such a habit. The covers of their books indicate forms which are unchallenged and universally accepted in the English-speaking world: Warsaw, Prague, Bucharest and Belgrade, not Warszawa, Praha, București and Beograd. Only outdated forms such as Cracow, Kiev, Thessalonica or Macao have been replaced by forms used by the U.S. State Department and The World Factbook: Kraków, Kyiv, Thessaloniki and Macau. All of those forms, except for Kyiv, have already been adopted as main title headers of their Wikipedia entries. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:01, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
- Neutral. It initially seemed like Macau was more frequently used than Macao, but as Deryck Chan mentioned and the Ngram results show, it's pretty even. I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I'm changing my oppose to neutral to reflect this. Horserice (talk) 18:36, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- oppose. The common name in English is 'Macau'. The spelling 'Macao' is relatively obscure and historic, and to many English speakers does not look like an English word at all.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 07:18, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
- Inclined to oppose as proposed. There are a wide variety of articles that would be affected by this change, and I'm not sure I've ever trusted a Google Ngram less. Names of Macau has a good (if weakly sourced) summary of the variety of names involved, and says that the government accepts both spellings, although we do not necessarily use official names (WP:OFFICIAL); it also implies that Macau enjoys greater WP:RECOGNIZABILITY in English. The WP:COMMONNAME data seems to be split. I don't see much benefit to moving all these things around, and thus per WP:TITLECHANGES I am inclined to believe that maintaining the status quo is the best outcome here. Dekimasuよ! 20:03, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Anthem
[edit]Is the anthem sung in Cantonese and Portugese in Macao? If it isn't, I think we might have to reconsider putting the Portugese translation and Cantonese romanisation of the title in the infobox, and perhaps substitute it with Mandarin pinyin (perhaps also specifying that it's the PRC's and not only Macao's anthem). Let me know what you think! Doanri (talk) 13:21, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
- I started the same discussion on talk:Hong Kong. Doanri (talk) 13:25, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
0$ debt?
[edit]In the article "List of countries by external debt" Macau is listed as the third with a value of 0. Is this worth putting in one of the opening paragraphs? NowIsntItTime 00:31, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Sister cities
[edit]The list of sister cities here is redundant and inconsistent with the list in Foreign relations of Macau#Sister cities. Given the separate articles, it would be best to delete the list here and rely on the other article to cover the subject. Also, if someone knows the correct list, it would be great to check the list (in either article). They differ and someone with an IP user name has been making changes to city pages regarding sister cities, and I am not clear these changes are valid. Coastside (talk) 16:13, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
To add to article
[edit]To add to the top of this article: a very good map clearly showing where Macau is located in relation to its surroundings in the Pearl River Delta. Why is there not already one here? 76.189.141.37 (talk) 15:16, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Skyline Image
[edit]Hi all, I am thinking about adding a skyline image to the infobox. If anybody has any objections please do let me know. Thank You! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chickensarebleepssorryuncle (talk • contribs) 22:17, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Spelling (Macao vs. Macau)
[edit]Can someone please address the spelling of Macau vs. Macao? ISO 3166 defines the spelling as "Macao", but it seems that "Macau" has been preferred on Wikipedia (on all non-ISO 3166 related articles).
- 'Macau' is I'm pretty sure the usual spelling in English: it's the only one I remember when visiting there, although the last time was 15 years ago. The variant 'Macao' seems to be a modern alternative spelling. Both have official status according to Names of Macau but I think the former is still the common name.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 17:20, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- both Macao and Macau are found in a wide variety of English language resources. Some years back it was decided to use a consistent spelling of Macau unless it was a proper name that used Macao. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- Just realised this has probably come up before and yes, it's been discussed before here and here.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 17:26, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Macao is the older Portuguese spelling, the older English spelling and the modern English spelling adopted by the Macau government. Macau is the modern Portuguese spelling and the comparatively more common spelling in contemporary English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.198.29.61 (talk) 10:11, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Naturally, my Oxford dictionary here would suggest that Macao is the only English spelling, as it is the only entry. The entry closes with "Portugeuse name Macau." However, English Wikipedia, for whatever reason, differs from the other Wikipedias by frequently titling articles with endonyms rather than the exonyms in the language of the Wikipedia. – RVJ (talk)
This is an English language Wikipedia page. In the first line of the article, it says "spelled Macao officially in English". So why is the page /Macau, and not /Macao? I checked the ISO country and currency codes, even the ISO 3166 code and internet TLD end in "o" (not "u"). This is all by choice of the official authorities of the country, it's not imposed from the outside. This is also inconsistent with other Wikipedia pages, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_Authority_of_Macao (which also ends in "o"). If all these government sites (amcm.gov.mo/en, portal.gov.mo, etc.) themselves spell it "Macao" in their English pages, why does this page not follow? Hi-Toro (talk) 16:40, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Decisive is how the authorities of the territory in question officially call their territory. They call it "Macao" in English, and "Macau" in Portuguese. I can't read the Chinese version(s). See the web page(s) of the governent of the Macao SAR:
in Portuguese: https://www.gov.mo/pt/conteudo/leis/diplomas-constitucionais/
in English: https://www.gov.mo/en/content/laws/constitutional-documents/
One can switch between the language versions by the "other language" link top right.
So I move the motion to change the name of this article, i.e. MOVE it to Macao.
--L.Willms (talk) 16:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
'largest frequesia (population)'
[edit]What does 'largest frequesia' mean? (putting population in parentheses afterwards doesn't help me) --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 13:26, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- 'frequesia' seems a mis-spell of 'freguesia', a portuguese word which can mean a community, parish or also the customers. The word also appears in the map of city divisions. In the File:Administrative Division of Macau.png you find the header "Frequesias (Parishes) and Zones of the Macau special administrative region of the PRC". So the "largest frequesia (population)" should mean the largest parish by population (not by superficie). --L.Willms (talk) 20:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Regional language (table)
[edit]Stating Cantonese as a regional language separately contradicts the footnote just above, which says "No specific variety of Chinese is official in the territory. Residents predominantly speak Cantonese, the de facto regional standard." There are no special mentions of all the German or Italian varieties in the tables of Germany or Italy.--2001:16B8:3150:ED00:E4A0:EF8D:52A4:918A (talk) 10:35, 25 December 2020 (UTC)