Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case: Difference between revisions
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== Jenhawk777 and Nightenbelle == |
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'''Initiated by ''' [[User:Jenhawk777|Jenhawk777]] ([[User talk:Jenhawk777|talk]]) '''at''' 22:21, 20 August 2020 (UTC) |
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=== Involved parties === |
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<!-- Please change "userlinks" to "admin" if the party is an administrator --> |
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*{{userlinks|Jenhawk777}}, ''filing party'' |
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*{{userlinks|Nightenbelle}} |
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;Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request |
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<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. --> |
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*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nightenbelle] |
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;Confirmation that other steps in [[Wikipedia:dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] have been tried |
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* Since the problem is with DR, and because it involve additional problematic behaviors, I did not attempt to go there. |
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=== Statement by Jenhawk777 === |
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I took a problem to dispute resolution, and it was only partly resolved before being closed. I went to the mediator asking for help with that--I was confused on what I should do because there was no consensus on one of the disputed issues. She took offense and attacked me. I asked for quotes that would indicate I was wrong. She eventually included some, but they prove my point, not hers. When I pointed that out, she just deleted everything. Here are the difs of the discussion on her Talk page. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nightenbelle&diff=next&oldid=974032127] |
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nightenbelle&diff=prev&oldid=974051502] |
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I also copied it to my sandbox. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jenhawk777/sandbox] Here is the original discussion at the DRN.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&action=edit§ion=16] |
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:Okay, I understand now that my complaints about her ad hominum attacks should have been taken to ANI--I didn't know what that was--but I will do that now after seeing all of this. I never called her a liar, that was entirely her interpretation and not my intent. I never accused her of anything beyond 'messing up'-- simply making a mistake. But I will not trouble you with this since it doesn't belong here. I think I will try to lower the drama a bit and see if one of those retired admins will help--perhaps instruct us both on how we failed in this discussion. [[User:Jenhawk777|Jenhawk777]] ([[User talk:Jenhawk777|talk]]) 18:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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(In response to Robert McClenon) |
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: I am probably doing this incorrectly, and I apologize if responding here is wrong, but responding somehow seemed appropriate. I am still relatively inexperienced at WP and don't know more than I do know. I apparently came here incorrectly, unknowingly, so I'm sorry for that too, and for wasting your time. I asked Nightenbelle if there was an "appeals" or something else that could be done, and Nightenbelle told me no, beyond a request for comment, there was nothing. So, I did not know a case could be reopened. This complaint was about both the case and behavior, but if I have to pick one, I would like to reopen the case, and if you would moderate that would be awesome.[[User:Jenhawk777|Jenhawk777]] ([[User talk:Jenhawk777|talk]]) 17:16, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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=== Statement by Nightenbelle === |
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{{re|Robert McClenon}} They are upset I closed the case when all 5 issues had been resolved- the other editors involved reached a consensus- they didn't realize the other editors had not agreed to her demand to remove the section since she didn't get to include her hero, and proceeded to harass me on my talk page for 24 hours until I snapped. I told her to go for RFC. The other editors wanted to continue working on a section- she says that their desire to keep working on it doesn't mean that they don't want to delete it. THat makes no sense- so they came, posted walls of unintelligible text on my wall, accused me of lying, deleting/changing what she was posting on my talk page (I archived it hoping they would get the hint and leave me alone- its not deleted- check my archive linked on every page of my profile- its all there. in its pompus glory.) and then accused ME of harassing them!!!! On my own talk page.... I have repeatedly suggested they do an RFC if they are unhappy with the consensus. But a DRN can't overturn a consensus. And the filing editor here is continually trying to [[WP:Synthesis]] and add [[WP:OR]] to articles and doesn't seem to understand why that is a problem. Everything was fine- even they seemed to be agreeing with the final outcome UNTIL I closed it- then all hell broke loose on my talk page and now this arbitration request. And no- I have not been sweet and kind once the harassment started. I was polite the first half dozen attacks, at this point- I'm done, I don't edit any of the pages they are on, and I just want them to leave me alone. [[User:Nightenbelle|Nightenbelle]] ([[User talk:Nightenbelle|talk]]) 14:31, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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[[User:Jenhawk777]] opened a case on the DRN. There were 5 issues to be resolved: |
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:1- Adding inline citations for existing information |
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:2- Inclusion or Exclusion of German Christians who supported Nazism |
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:3- The definition of religious persecution |
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:4- Inclusion or exclusion of Dietrich Bonhoeffer |
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:5- What the sources say/support |
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Each issue was discussed and agreed on as follows (This is cut and pasted from my explanation after almost a full day of harassment from Jenhawk777): |
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:1- Adding inline citations for existing information (everyone agreed to do this) |
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:2- Inclusion or Exclusion of German Christians who supported Nazism (consensus- was not to make this a list of individuals- but to briefly summarize)- Slatersteven said, "As to the rest, if RS say X was persecuted by the Nazis for being a christian, yes we could have one or two examples, but I would rather we just discussed it in more general terms. We cannot have a list of Every Christian persecuted by the Nazis, even it is was due to their faith.Slatersteven (talk)" and Objective3000 said, "The article covers a period of 2,000 years, and religious persecution is common. Given this, I don’t see adding any individuals, with or without inline cites or even if sources say the person was specifically persecuted for being a Christian. If we look through this lengthy article, names are generally used of persecutors, not those persecuted. Groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Bruderhof make sense for inclusion in the Nazi section as they were persecuted en masse by the Nazis. These are obvious examples of Christian persecution as they were all persecuted. O3000 (talk) 12:21 pm, 17 August 2020, last Monday (3 days ago) (UTC−5)" And you said "I concede," Right before you ignored what the two above you had said and demanded that we remove all discussion of German Christians for the favor of your concession. BOTH the other two editors wanted to keep the section and work to improve it- as quoted there. |
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:3- The definition of religious persecution - The very first thing we covered where between your walls of text you pretended there was no other WP:RS except the ones you were looking at and magically the other two editors found excellent RS that provided a clear definition. |
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:4- Inclusion or exclusion of Dietrich Bonhoeffer - 2:1 exclusion. |
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:5- What the sources say/support- This is covered by policy and the ability to read since it must EXPLICITLY say something - you cannot infer when creating articles. |
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Jenhawk777 took issue with me closing because when she agreed to not list individuals- she also demanded the section be deleted. Both other editors wanted to work to improve the section as shown above. They then came to my talk page and began posting walls of text to get me to re-open and allow her to badger the other editors who had reached an agreement until they gave into them. I refused, first because I didn't see the point, and later because after the way they had been behaving towards me- I knew that if I tried to mediate and it again went against them- they would just accuse me of being biased. I pointed out their other options- mainly RFC. |
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Instead they continued to post on my page. Walls and walls of text. They insisted that other editors saying "groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Bruderhof make sense for inclusion in the Nazi section" means that editor really wants to delete the nazi section.... if we are including something in a section- how does that then mean they want to delete the section? Or "yes we could have one or two examples, but I would rather we just discussed it in more general terms" Again- this is not saying the user wants the section deleted- but edited!! I don't understand why I'm being harrassed by this person, and now dragged into an arbcom. After 20+ hours of this- I was finished being polite, I told them in no uncertain terms to go away and leave me alone. I told them they were pretentious. And I stand by that. I don't throw my education around... but I have a degree in English as well as a Masters in Business- I'm a fairly well educated person, and never- in my most formal of academic papers, did I ever use such a convoluted, high handed structure and vocabulary as they use for simple discussion. Its ridiculous and indulgent. |
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You can see the full archived conversation [[User_talk:Nightenbelle/Archive_1#Nazis|here]]. [[User:Nightenbelle|Nightenbelle]] ([[User talk:Nightenbelle|talk]]) |
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15:03, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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{{re|Deepfriedokra}} 11+ years of being on WP on and off..... first time I've ever been called in front of any group Administrators, Arbcom, anything.... and its because someone flipped out on ME and then reported ME for their flipping out on ME.....I have a migraine today from the boomerang slamming into my head. insanity thy name is 2020.[[User:Nightenbelle|Nightenbelle]] ([[User talk:Nightenbelle|talk]]) 17:06, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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{{re|Jenhawk777}} Actually what I said was there was no appeal for a consensus.... because the issue you are arguing at this point has a clear consensus. I didn't tell you there was no appeal for a DRN. But no way was I going to re-open the DRN because after the harassment you have thrown at me- anything I said you would scream I was not being neutral so what would have been the point. And since your request waited almost a week before I figured if I didn't take it no one else would- I didn't want to try to force another mediator to take it on now. ESPECIALLY since all issues had been resolved and agreed on- including by you- until after it was closed and you realized you didn't get your way meaning that the section wasn't being removed now that it didn't contain the dude you wanted to force in |
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And yeah... I'm not neutral at this point. The past 24 hours and this ridiculous arbcom case has completely obliterated my neutrality.[[User:Nightenbelle|Nightenbelle]] ([[User talk:Nightenbelle|talk]]) 17:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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: And apparently my grammar skills. Dang... My professors would be embarrassed. I swear I passed AND taught advanced grammar once upon a time! [[User:Nightenbelle|Nightenbelle]] ([[User talk:Nightenbelle|talk]]) 17:28, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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=== Statement by Deepfriedokra === |
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*Should this not have gone to [[WP:ANI]] or somewhere short of ARBCOM first? I just don't a behavior pattern rising to ARBCOM level. --<b>[[User:Deepfriedokra|<span style="color:black">Deep</span><span style="color:red">fried</span><span style="color:DarkOrange">okra</span>]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(<span style="color:black">talk</span>)]]</b> 01:05, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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*:{{yo| Robert McClenon}} Yes. And thanks as always for your efforts to calm the waters. --<b>[[User:Deepfriedokra|<span style="color:black">Deep</span><span style="color:red">fried</span><span style="color:DarkOrange">okra</span>]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(<span style="color:black">talk</span>)]]</b> 07:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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*:Just as well that ArbCom does not throw boomerangs. I look forward to commenting on this if it goes to ANI. --<b>[[User:Deepfriedokra|<span style="color:black">Deep</span><span style="color:red">fried</span><span style="color:DarkOrange">okra</span>]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(<span style="color:black">talk</span>)]]</b> 16:31, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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===Interim Statement by Robert McClenon=== |
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Does [[User:Jenhawk777]] want to reopen a closed dispute at DRN, or does Jenhawk have an issue with the conduct of a moderator at DRN? If the objective is to reopen a dispute that was closed, I am willing to mediate the dispute, if this dispute is closed and there are no other related disputes pending anywhere. Is this a request to reopen a dispute, or an issue about the conduct of an editor who was moderating the DRN dispute? |
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[[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 07:30, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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====Additional Comment by Robert McClenon==== |
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I will be re-opening the dispute at [[WP:DRN|DRN]] at the request of [[User:Jenhawk777]]. [[User:Nightenbelle]] will '''not''' be a party to the dispute. She was the moderator, and I am willing at least to try to take over as the moderator. The case will be only about the content of the article; DRN cases are only ever about the content of the article. The other editors who had been parties to the dispute will be asked to resume taking part in the dispute. Participation at DRN, including participation in re-opening a case, is voluntary. What is done at DRN will not be binding, although it is likely to result in a [[WP:RFC|Request for Comments]], and the result of the RFC will be binding if it is found to be a consensus. [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 18:31, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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I suggest that a clerk move Jenhawk's comment above to her section. [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 18:31, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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===Statement by Objective3000=== |
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ArbCom, ANI, this doesn't belong anywhere. It has been discussed to death. Decline it here and I advise the filer to not refile elsewhere where it can backfire. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 17:30, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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=== Statement by {Non-party} === |
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Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information. |
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<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * --> |
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=== Jenhawk777 and Nightenbelle: Clerk notes === |
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:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).'' |
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*No accept votes and a withdraw request has been made, so at or after 18:52, 22 August 2020 (UTC) this case request will be removed as withdrawn. I have also moved a comment by Jenhawk777 into their own statement section. The added "(In response to Robert McClenon)" is to give proper context, but can be removed by Jenhawk777 if they desire. [[User:Dreamy Jazz|Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">'''Jazz'''</i>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Dreamy Jazz|talk to me]]'' | ''[[Special:Contribs/Dreamy Jazz|my contributions]]''</sup> 22:13, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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=== Jenhawk777 and Nightenbelle: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/3/0> === |
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{{anchor|1=Jenhawk777 and Nightenbelle: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter}}<small>Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)</small> |
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*'''Decline''' Arbcom is the last resort for prolonged, disruptive behavioral issues that the community has failed to resolve. This clearly is not that. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 16:22, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Decline''', with thanks to those editors assisting with mediation efforts. –[[User:xeno|<b style="font-family:verdana;color:#000">xeno</b>]][[user talk:xeno|<sup style="color:#000">talk</sup>]] 16:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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**I suggest we treat [[Special:Diff/974204713]] as a request by {{u|Jenhawk777}} to withdraw the request. –[[User:xeno|<b style="font-family:verdana;color:#000">xeno</b>]][[user talk:xeno|<sup style="color:#000">talk</sup>]] 19:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Decline'''. I fail to see any misconduct to examine. Echoing Xeno's thanks to all assisting with the content dispute resolution. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 17:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Mark as withdrawn''' per above. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 21:18, 21 August 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:12, 22 August 2020
Requests for arbitration
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