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== Camp Fire ==
'''Initiated by ''' [[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) '''at''' 19:26, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

=== Involved parties ===
<!-- Please change "userlinks" to "admin" if the party is an administrator -->
*{{userlinks|Granite07}}, ''filing party''
*{{userlinks|MONGO}}

;Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->
*Diff of notce on talk page, acknowledged and all parties are now here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camp_Fire_(2018)

;Confirmation that other steps in [[Wikipedia:dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] have been tried
*Attempts at resolution through talk page have been unproductive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camp_Fire_(2018)

Revised:

First attempted to discuss in Talk Page. This dissenting editor that wants to remove content is an exceptional editor so I made an extra effort to try several times to open a discussion. Because the editor is so skilled (I thought they were an admin), I thought they would open the discussion and invite me. When that did not happen I opened a discussion and invited them.

In this request, I need to address why I moved to arbitration quickly. In my attempt to address the disenting editor's concerns they immediately changed the topic to procedural protocol. As a first step by that editor, this did not look like collaboration. I became concerned when I relaized the editor vastly outweighs me in skill and was effectivly diverting the topic. I feel that it is appropriate to move to arbitration. When I tried to end the arbitration and reach out to other methods that I learned of through arbitration, I was again threatened with being banned for doing it procedurally wrong.

I honestly don't see why there is a dispute between these editors. I feel they are in good faith but I don't understand their intent.

My intent with this arbitration request is to clarify rules on deletion of cited content and to gain oversight of our interaction because it started off a bit aggressive with threats that I would be banned for procedural mistakes in asking for a discussion.

For clarity, I got here by searching online for help between editors and this was what I got. If nothing else, please hold my hand and introduce me to the correct space for this discrepancy between editors. Maybe put a header on this page that directs to where lighter edits disputes should go since I have tried several today without success (even a button at the page edit screen that says, "need help with an editor?")

=== Statement by Granite07 ===
<s>Please delay voting, I made a request for a clerk. Please wait until a clerk has responded--possibly this request should be moved to dispute resolution with a clerks help.</s>
<s>Sorry, there is a typo, it is MONGO not MANGO. I corrected with an edit above.</s>
<s>Note--sorry for my mistake in responding to posts at those posts, I will comment here.</s>
<s>I understand that this request is early. However the situation is unique. MONGO is an admin. If you look at the Talk Page you can see the path of the current discussion.</s>

It is up to you as admin how you want to proceed. I am depending on your discretion and I respect your decision.

Question: Can cited and relevant content be removed without comment or an invite to discuss? (Adding in case this question isn't clear as the ask here).

Issue: Edits by myself and Mongo to [[Camp Fire (2018)]] regarding Wildland-urban Interface were in conflict. These are: A) cited content, B) content edited by multiple editors (additive and subtracting edits), C) edits over several days. MONGO removed the entire section as a 'Platform,' which is not a recognized Wikipedia reason to remove content. When invited to discuss in the Talk Page MONGO turned to protocol arguments subsequent to the edits in question and focused on mistakes in how the request to talk was made. I feel MONGO is acting in good faith and reached out for a third party.

This is the cited page content that was removed by MONGO,https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/869461965

Please review Talk Page discussion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camp_Fire_(2018)#Wildland–urban%20interface

Please see example diffs to additive and subtractive good faith edits to that content by numerous editors over several days--MONGO in good faith and without significant comment removed this content which is cited content from sources, such as the LA Times
*https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/869357577
*https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/869305449
*https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/869310002
*https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/869291741

There is an ongoing though mostly irrelevant issue about my change from anon edits to named account edits. Unrelated to the issue of this arbitration the Camp Fire page had vandalism and as a result was locked. As a result, I was forced to login to continue as a named account. This diff is the vandalism in question and is unrelated to the topic here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/869446965

UPDATES:
*{{ping|Iridescent}} Thank you -- I have been editing that page for several days as anon. There was a vandalism block (unrelated to this issue -- I posted a diff of that documented vandalism that was the issue), therefore I had to use a named account I rarely use to request Mongo go to the Talk Page to discuss before continued edits. We had trouble communicating so I requested arbitration before feeling get hurt. So far all good. [[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) 20:34, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{ping|Beeblebrox}}MONGO has been notified (and is here in arb.) and a diff is now poseted, sorry for the delay [[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) 20:30, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{ping|Beeblebrox}} Got it--arbitration is different from a decade ago, right[[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) 20:35, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{ping|Beeblebrox}} Got it, please see new post in my section -- I will also copy/paste comtent from Talk Page for reference (Or can I just provide a link? I assumed talk discussion would be reviewed) [[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) 20:42, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{ping|MONGO}} Yes, but emotions are fine. Thank you for your concern. [[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) 20:31, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{ping|PeterTheFourth}}Their [MONGO's] contribution to Wikipedia is exceptional. I have a great amount of respect for their work. [[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) 20:05, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*MONGO has continued edits despite this arbitaration request which should freeze edits while we find a consensus. The most recent edit is to add a see also link to the Wildland-Urban interface page. However, the removed content was specific to the Wildland-Urban interface discussion relevant to the Camp Fire. The content could be edited with MONGOS excellent editing collaboration (I think there is a list that they want removed which is fine) but a whole removal of the content is not resolved by a see also link to a generic discussion.

*{{ping|Mkdw}} Fully understand, I explained in the request that there is a large imbalance in influence and knowledge of the editors. Further, the [[Camp Fire (2018)]] is quickly evolving as an unprecedented event--I have had the preceding steps to arbitration take up to a month to work through. In this situation, arbitration can be requested after a Talk Page discussion is unproductive. [[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) 21:55, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{ping|power~enwiki}} Sorry that you saw my outreach for assistance as disruptive. I felt that I had been told here to reach out to those resources due to this otherwise being a premature request to arbitration. [[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) 22:04, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{ping|Mkdw}} Are you directing me to request support in Consensus? [[User:Granite07|Granite07]] ([[User talk:Granite07|talk]]) 22:23, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*Please be aware that several editors more or less have posted on my talk page demanding that I remove this arbitration request. I appreciate the advice of admins here but I feel it is hugely inappropriate that I have been pressured by editors. None of these editors were editing the section inquestion nor participated in the TalkPage discussion until after I made this arbitaration request. In my decade on Wikipedia, I have never seen this before. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Granite07#/talk/49
* Thank you to the admins, I appreciate that the arbitration process is available. I feel that that has been a fair process and I am happy with the process today. This is an important part component of editing and Wikipedia. Like I said at the start, I respect and accept the discretion of the admin in this process. Regardless the the outcome--I would like my question heard by arbitration-- I thank you for the opportunity to ask.
*{{ping|Cameron11598}} A question: Per Wikipedia rules, can editor A remove cited and relevant content over editor B without discussing?
*[[Beyond My Ken]] has proposed a solution [[Talk:Camp_Fire_(2018)]]

====Comments from MONGO's section====

====Comments from Iridescent's section====

=== Statement by the evil MONGO ===
Ugh. I've even been trying to decide if some of the material should be included [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Camp_Fire_(2018)#Wildland–urban_interface]. Editor claims they lost their home to the wildfire and has been making concerted efforts to add a discussion about the [[Wildland-urban interface]] issues. They may not be aware of all the ways we go about things on Wikipedia. Their edit history shows edits to [[Concow, California]] some years back and that area was devastated by the fire so emotions are high.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO|talk]]) 19:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

=== Statement by Iridescent ===
[[User:Granite07]], you have [https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/usersearch.py?name=Granite07&page=Camp_Fire_%282018%29&server=enwiki&max= a grand total of one edit to the page in question]. You've been on Wikipedia for ten years; you must know that running to Arbcom the moment someone disagrees with you isn't going to end well. Please consider withdrawing this.&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 19:32, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

=== Statement by SN54129 ===
<S>Could {{reply|Granite07}} also clarify who the [[User:MANGO]] is? [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''''SerialNumber'''''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:#8B0000">'''''54129'''''</span>]] 19:36, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
: It's MONGO. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 19:37, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
:{{reply|JzG}} Well, duhh. Clearly it is :) And the [[special:diff/869461664|penny recently dropped for them too]]. I do, however, think it's incumbent on any filer here to at least get the names of the principals (supposedly) involved correct if they wish their plaint to have the slightest chance of being taken seriously... [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''''SerialNumber'''''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:#8B0000">'''''54129'''''</span>]] 19:40, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{reply|Granite07}} MONGO is not—although doubtless should be—[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=1&username=MONGO an admin]. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''''SerialNumber'''''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:#8B0000">'''''54129'''''</span>]] 20:00, 18 November 2018 (UTC)</s>

===Statememnt by Beeblebrox===
This is more directed at the filing user than the committee since the outcome is so obvious: please just withdraw this now. It is grossly premature to the extent that the chance of the committee accepting is basically none, but people will keep coming in and piling on more and more statements, and the committee will have to vote on whether or not to accept it, and then they won't and you'll be back where you are right now, so it's be great if you'd just see that this isn't ripe for arbitration and withdraw the request now. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 19:48, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
:You've also failed to notify MONGO of this or to provide the required diff of you doing so , so this will be auto-rejected just for that. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 19:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
::Another little detail is that you aren't supposed to post in other user's sections as you have been. It's right in the great big edit notice you should be seeing when editing this page. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 20:34, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
:::Maybe a better use of your time would be giving the slightest indication of what the problem is here and why arbcom should be adressing it, as you've utterly failed to even attempt to do so so far. Arbcom is not an investigative body, you need to '''show them the problem''' preferably using [[WP:DIFF]]s or at the very least links to sections of the relvant pages. Not that any of that matters as again, there is no chance of this case being accepted and you should just withdraw it now. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 20:37, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

=== Statement by PeterTheFourth ===
Small correction, {{u|Granite07}} - {{u|MONGO}} is not an admin. [[Special:Contributions/PeterTheFourth|PeterTheFourth]] ([[User Talk:PeterTheFourth|talk]]) 20:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

=== Statement by power~enwiki ===
{{user|Granite07}}'s behavior is becoming disruptive, I note [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Editor_assistance&diff=prev&oldid=869478474 this diff] requesting "Urgent" help in this case at [[Wikipedia talk:Editor assistance]]. They've also requested a [[WP:3O]], which technically isn't applicable but is reasonable behavior. If this user refuses to listen to many editors (including myself) telling them their behavior is counter-productive and continue to make out-of-process requests on many pages, a block will be necessary. Per [[WP:BOOMERANG]], they can be blocked for their actions here. [[User:power~enwiki|power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/Power~enwiki|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 21:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

=== Statement by Nick ===
Block Granite07 indefinitely for disruptive editing and for lacking competency, discuss the issue thoroughly on their talk page, unblock when competency is again demonstrated and sufficient assurances are given that disruption will cease. [[User:Nick|Nick]] ([[User talk:Nick|talk]]) 22:26, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

=== Statement by Beyond My Ken ===
Obviously not going to be accepted; Granite, you really should just withdraw this request. On the other hand, the suggestion of a block is pretty over the top (and not appropriate for this forum) for what is basically bureaucratic messiness and bad judgment. The OP's comments on the talk page are a tiny bit IDHT, but not all that much, and they're not really disruptive in any way that I can see. The editing to the article is edit-warrish, if we really want to go out of our way to issue a block, but I don't think it's worthwhile to do so. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 22:48, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

=== Statement by {Non-party} ===
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
<!-- * Please copy this section for the next person. * -->

=== Camp Fire: Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''
* <s> Recuse per clerks-l --[[User:Cameron11598|Cameron<sub><small>11598</small></sub>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Cameron11598|(Talk)]] </sup> 21:44, 18 November 2018 (UTC) </s>
** Actually provided {{ping|MONGO}} and {{u|Granite07}} don't mind me contributing to this case as a clerk despite having relatives and friends directly effected by this fire I'll try to clean this case request up. --[[User:Cameron11598|Cameron<sub><small>11598</small></sub>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Cameron11598|(Talk)]] </sup> 00:07, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

=== Camp Fire: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/3/0> ===
{{anchor|1=Wildland-urban interface relevant to Camp Fire: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter}}<small>Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)</small>
*Procedural '''decline''' as premature. Arbitration is a venue of last resort and no other forms of [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] have been attempted. '''[[User:Mkdw|<span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw</span>]]''' [[User talk:Mkdw|<sup>''<span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk</span>''</sup>]] 21:28, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
::{{ping|Granite07}} Please take the time to read the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration|guide to arbitration]]. A talk page discussion is not sufficient to demonstrate that you have exhausted all other forms of dispute resolution and nor demonstrates that <u>the community</u> has been unable to resolve the issue. Furthermore, an arbitration request does not automatically mean all involved editors are prohibited from editing the topic area or article at the centre of the dispute. The arbitration committee does not rule on matters of content. Further to, the arbitration process would almost certainly be subject to abuse by meritless requests being filed against editors in order to temporarily ban them from editing. Our rules around [[Wikipedia:Edit warring|edit warring]] and conduct still apply and I recommend you attempt one of the many other alternatives to arbitration. '''[[User:Mkdw|<span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw</span>]]''' [[User talk:Mkdw|<sup>''<span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk</span>''</sup>]] 21:47, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
::[[WP:CONSENSUS|Consensus]] is the fastest way to resolve the issue. Impatience for the other dispute resolution processes does not invalid their absolute requirement to be eligible for arbitration. Additionally, the arbitration process typically takes even longer than one month from request to conclusion, so I think you would be disappointed if your goal is expediency. Lastly, I carefully said, "one" of the many alternatives to arbitration. Not all of them all at once, which is prohibited under [[WP:FORUMSHOP]]. '''[[User:Mkdw|<span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw</span>]]''' [[User talk:Mkdw|<sup>''<span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk</span>''</sup>]] 22:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
::Clerks, please remove the case request as declined/withdrawn. The issue is seemingly being dealt with at [[Talk:Camp Fire (2018)#Wildland–urban interface]]. '''[[User:Mkdw|<span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw</span>]]''' [[User talk:Mkdw|<sup>''<span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk</span>''</sup>]] 04:29, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
*Procedural '''decline''' as per Mkdw. &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 00:19, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Decline''' as above. -- [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 03:00, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Revision as of 04:33, 19 November 2018

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