Wikipedia:Requests for comment/MOS:GENDERID for genderqueer people

RfC regarding MOS:GENDERID for genderqueer people

I propose adding the following section to MOS:GENDERID:

MOS:GENDERID currently does not specify how biographies of people who identify as neither male nor female should be handled. I have seen inconsistencies with the use of pronouns on articles of such people; some use singular they, others avoid the use of pronouns and instead refer to the person by name. I have previously edited the Grace Dunham and Zoë Quinn articles, both of whom are people who transitioned from a female identity to a non-binary identity, to avoid the use of pronouns, and was met with silent consensus, indicating that no editor objected to such usage. This proposal avoids the use of pronouns on such articles altogether, which is an appropriate compromise between Wikipedia editors, a demographic affected by WP:Systemic bias and therefore more exposed to gender issues, and many readers who may still find singular they to be hard to follow and/or consider that to be incorrect grammar. Singular they is commonly used when the gender of a person is unknown, but this is not the case with genderqueer people, and the use of singular they to refer to a specific person may come off as unnatural to far more people. feminist 14:01, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Support

1. Support, as proposer. feminist 14:01, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
2. Support I dislike singular they, and you can write an article while keeping pronouns to a minimum, you just have to be clever about it, and try to state the person's name in as many different ways as possible. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 15:38, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

   @ThePlatypusofDoom: This would only advise against singular they for articles on individuals who don't identify using he or she, which is a small minority of the biographies we currently have. I see no reason to advise against singular they (which is gender neutral) for these while not doing so for others. We should be consistent when possible. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 16:02, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

   Support makes sense and is not awkward in context. Nice job, feminist! Cheers, FriyMan ^talk 15:58, 14 April 2017 (UTC) (Moved to Oppose)

Oppose

1. Strong Oppose - "avoid the use of pronouns whenever possible" leads to awkward sentences. I wouldn't oppose a proposal stating singular they should be used in these cases. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 14:16, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
2. Oppose - pronouns are vital to this language. We can't just throw them away! It is better to use singular they, then not using pronouns at all! I would support an RfC for using singular they in genderqueer biographies. Cheers, FriyMan ^talk 16:04, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

   The problem with singular they is that it is (still) not widely accepted by readers. Avoiding the use of pronouns is not difficult: just mention the person by name. This still makes for a less jarring reading experience to readers who are not accustomed to the use of singular they. feminist 16:46, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

   @Feminist: See my reply to ThePlatypusofDoom above. All the arguments against singular they presented here so far would apply to its use in all biographies, not just in the case of individuals who identify as neither male nor female. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 16:56, 14 April 2017 (UTC)