Talk:Greco-Italian War

This wikipedia page (Personal attack removed)

Δρ.Κ. has falsely accused me of "war editing". Like with the New York Times article reporting a German colonel praising the Italian role during Operation Brevity, I have used British or American newspapers to relay in English what the Italian high command at the time had to say about the defeat of four Greek divisions and two elite Evzones regiments near Vjosa River towards the end of the Greco-Italian War. Note that Greek and British military communiques do not refute the Italian allegations. If we can have the German version of events regarding the role of the 8th Bersaglieri Regiment at Halfaya Pass, why can't we have the Italian high command's version of events regarding the role of the Italian 9th Army near Vjosa River? I was hoping to improve this Wikipedia page to do with the Greco-Italian War without some hawk censuring everything I do. He has even removed a diary entry from the Italian foreign minister, Count Galeazzo Ciano at the time, claiming that the source (De Felice (1990), p. 125) I used to back up the claim that the Italian troops "had tied down Greek forces" was written by a fascist when that same source already appears (before my edits) at the end of the following paragraph:

In anticipation of the German attack, the British and some Greeks urged a withdrawal of the army of Epirus to spare badly needed troops and equipment to repel the Germans. However, national sentiment forbade the abandonment of such hard-won positions. The mentality that retreat in the face of the Italians would be disgraceful and overriding military logic caused them to ignore the British warning. Therefore, 15 divisions, the bulk of the Greek army, were left deep in Albania as German forces approached. General Wilson derided this reluctance as "the fetishistic doctrine that not a yard of ground should be yielded to the Italians"; only six of the 21 Greek divisions were left to oppose the German attack.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War#cite_note-64

And I press my case with the following extract from the Wikipedia page to do with Operation Brevity:

On 5 August, Colonel von Herff praised the Bersaglieri, who had defended Halfaya Pass "...with lionlike courage until the last man against stronger enemy forces. The greatest part of them died faithful to the flag.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Brevity

If Δρ.Κ. holds the moral ground, then I dare him to go ahead and remove the comments of Colonel Maximilian von Herff, after all the New York Times article that relayed his view of the Bersaglieri to the world came from the from a committed Nazi officer, with the okay from the German high command.--100menonmars (talk) 14:03, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Per wp:HISTRS the recently added part has been removed. Please follow the correspodent instructions per mentioned policy.Alexikoua (talk) 14:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua I have now included primary sources to back up the Italian claims. Please show good faith and do not remove recent content.--100menonmars (talk) 14:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

In case this will be the product of concensus, I have no problem on that.Alexikoua (talk) 14:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The primary sources are that: primary. They cannot be used without corroborating evidence, especially when dealing with a war, where truth and accuracy are wanting. In this case, they cannot be (mis)used to imply that the Italian 9th Army "captured" Greek troops when the entire Greek Epirus army had surrendered two days before, and was already in effect demobilizing and decomposing, with men leaving their units and going to their homes... Far from portraying the Italians favourably, inserting such a claim only helps to make them appear ridiculous, I am afraid. Constantine ✍ 15:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I have reinserted paragraphs that were removed without a valid explanation. I have now formally made a complaint, demanding that the sockpuppetry stop.--100menonmars (talk) 16:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I am impartial on this issue, and i hoping to provide an unofficial 3rd point. From what i have read thus far the issue seems to be mostly over the use of Renzo De Felio as a source and the quote "tied down Greek forces". For the moment i am not engaging the primary source used in the latest edit.

I cannot access De Felio's work, so issue one is: is the quote accurate? Does De Felio state that this is the reason why high ranking Italian officials arrived to visit the troops?

Issue two, is the source reliable? The wiki page on De Felio, while not a reliable source, does not call him a fascist or a fascist-leaning historian. To the contary, it calls him a socialist. However, reliable source wise and in a quick effort to understand who this man is, i have accessed the first few English (since i cannot read Italian) articles on JSTOR that are purly about the man and his work.

Michael Ledeen compares De Felio's Intervista sul fascismo with A.J.P. Taylor's Origins of the Second World War (Ledeen, p. 269). Ledeen argues that the debate that raged around the work was part of the leftover heritage of the fascist era and politically motivated. He also argues that "it is impossible for anyone to gain acceptance in Italian intellectual circles without proclaiming a staunch antifascism" (Ledeen, pp. 281-282). Borden Painter Jr makes quite a similar argument, stating that De Felio's work were being released and engaged in political terms rather than purely historical ones, and notes one example of a debate in 1988 becoming "absorbed into a larger debate over Stalinism" (Painter, p. 391). Despite the political fighting surrounding his works, Painter concludes "De Felice has succeeded as a historian not because everyone agrees with what he has written but because, as with Jacob Burckhardt on the Renaissance or Geoffrey Elton on Tudor England, everyone who writes on the subject has to take his views into account" (Painter, p. 405). Emilio Gentile, in a tribute to De Felice following his death, notes his popularity from the President down and notes that the Italian media "declared [him] one of the greatest Italian historians of the twentieth century" not to mention foreign newspapers also lauded him. Gentile notes that the media outpouring "praised [him] for or his independent spirit, his intellectual courage, the thoroughness of his research and his innovative interpretations which opened up new avenues in the historiography of fascism." However, Gentile notes that De Felio had a lot of critics who stated he should not be called a historian due to his methods, called his works as an attempt to rehabilitating Mussolini and fascism, and some students attempted to stop lectures (Gentile, p. 139). Gentile heaps a lot of praise on the man and argues that his output was important to the study of the fascist era, concluding that while his work will need to be reexamined "we should take his work further than he did, without destroying his contribution and thus falling back to an earlier stage".(Gentile, p. 151)

The conclusion i draw from what i have read, the accusations "Rv POV terminology (tied down) by unreliable Italian source" and "There are no good-faith issues involved when removing POV language by historians with fascist POV issues." are rather unwarranted and a much better reason needs to be given over why some of these edits are being reverted due to the use of De Felio.

Gentil, Emilio (1997) Renzo De Felice: A Tribute, Journal of Contemporary History, http://www.jstor.org/stable/261237

Ledeen, Michael (1976) Renzo De Felice and the Controversy over Italian Fascism, Journal of Contemporary History, http://www.jstor.org/stable/260199

Painter, Borden W (1990) Renzo De Felice and the Historiography of Italian Fascism, The American Historical Review, http://www.jstor.org/stable/2163756

As for the issue on the PS: i would argue that despite policy wording, careful use of PS can be used and have been used in articles that have been promoted to GA and FA status. However, it has to be with extreme care. Since i do not know much on this war, if - as Cplakidas has argued - historians have noted that these divisions surrendered to the Germans before the Italian arrival, then the PS should not be used as an 'overwrite'.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Renzo De Felice has been described as a fascist apologist. He is therefore a controversial historian who cannot be used in this article for controversial claims. I agree with you that primary sources should not be used to support controversial claims which contradict reports from reliable secondary sources. Also the newspaper reports used in the latest edit-war by the OP contain recycled reports from Italian wartime newspapers which were under the control of the fascists. Such reports cannot be used to support controversial claims because they obviously lack neutrality. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:55, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

@EnigmaMcmxc:@100menonmars: I don't really have an opinion regarding De Felice. If his work can be considered well-researched, and as long as no ideological statements are made, then I'm content to have it, until something better comes along. I do have a problem with using wartime primary sources without examination. E.g. Ciano's diary declarations are useful as a background to Italian policy decisions, being original documents, but they are worthless as an assessment of the conflict following its end, since Ciano was not exactly a disinterested party in trying to present it as a triumph. Ditto for the statement that the Italians captured four Greek divisions: it may well be that the Italians did take prisoners from these divisions (briefly, for the Greek army was demobilized and never interned in POW camps), but under no circumstances should this be phrased as to imply that the divisions were "captured" in battle, as is the obvious reading of the statement in question, when the Greek army had ceased to exist as a fighting force two days previously. I have sympathy with the Italians taking umbrage at the over-simplified stereotyped image of a clownish Italian army, but resorting to verbatim, uncritical reproduction of wartime propaganda (or, as AnnalesSchool has done in earlier discussions, seeking to exculpate Italy from anything because the Germans were far worse) is certainly not the way to correct this. Constantine ✍ 19:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Dr K, from what i have read and quoted above i feel you are writing off the guy despite the fact that quite a number of his peers believe his work to be of value and his critics to be more politically motivated than anything else (that may be an over generalization, but it would seem that labeling him fascist apologist is also). I would argue (echoing Cplakidas), solely based off my research this morning, that his work should be used in a manner one would use AJP Taylor (outside of university level study on the subject that is): allowing uncontroversial comments to be used. If he is stating simple facts (x happened, y happened etc) than it is fine. When it comes to analysis (which it is not being used for here), it should be bolstered with his critics concern (in such a way as any debate on Fritz Fischer should be countered by the comments of likes of Gerhard Ritter). That brings us back to the first question: does the source say the Italians tied down the Greeks in question? Something i dont think has been addressed (as it seems the "capture" of the four Greek divisions is a separate issue), is this factual? Do other sources support this? More importantly, is it actually important to understand the subject?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:33, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Just a clarification: I did not label him a fascist apologist; his article quotes his critics describing him that way. Also I did not write him off. I said he is a controversial historian, which he is, and any controversial statements by him should not be accepted at face value, without external corroboration of his claims. Non-controversial statements by him are ok to be included in the article, so I agree with you when you say that "allowing uncontroversial comments to be used" is ok. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

EnigmaMcmxc criticism of the Greek military or political decision to allow the Italians to tie the bulk of the Greek forces in Albania not only comes from Lieutenant-General Henry Maitland Wilson in the book written by Renzo De Felice, but also is supported by Allied official sources at the time and historian Samuel W. Mitcham who wrote:

In anticipation of the German attack, the British and some Greeks urged a withdrawal of the army of Epirus to spare badly needed troops and equipment to repel the Germans. However, national sentiment forbade the abandonment of such hard-won positions. The mentality that retreat in the face of the Italians would be disgraceful and overriding military logic caused them to ignore the British warning. Therefore, 15 divisions, the bulk of the Greek army, were left deep in Albania as German forces approached.derided this reluctance as "the fetishistic doctrine that not a yard of ground should be yielded to the Italians"; only six of the 21 Greek divisions were left to oppose the German attack. As a result of their poor deployment, the Greeks opposed the Italians with 14 divisions. They only had seven week divisions left to oppose the German Army, which was the best in the world at that time. In additions, the Greek Air Force had been in combat for months and had suffered such heavy losses on the Albanian Front that it was virtually nonoperational by April 1941. (The Rise of the Wehrmacht: Vol. 1, Samuel W. Mitcham, p.394, ABC-CLIO, 2008)

I will now back up De Felice as the source with Mitcham, to support the claim the Greeks allowed their forces to be tied down in Albania instead of properly reinforcing the Metaxas Line from where the German invasion was expected and came from.

I've also had to change back the heading of this discussion from This wikipedia page to This wikipedia page has been hijacked by Δρ.Κ, to underline the significance of getting more balance and improving the wikipedia page to do with the Greco-Italian War.

--100menonmars (talk) 21:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

You will not restore this clueless personal attack against me per WP:NPA. Read well the policy of no personal attacks as well as WP:CIVIL and behave accordingly. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I wonder now why a new section "Battle of Crete" has shown up.Alexikoua (talk) 01:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed that. I think it is irrelevant to this article. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:25, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I would like only to point out that Renzo De Felice (NOT De Felio) is now (2015) considered the most important Italian historian of Fascism and the most important biographer of Mussolini worldwide, period. He has been seen as controversial for some years only because of political reasons, since he was an ex communist who had the guts (in the seventies one should have physical courage to do that) to challenge the communist hegemony in the Italian culture, studying fascism and Mussolini scientifically and not repeating ideological mantras. Describing him as a Fascist or a Fascist apologist was typical of the communist tactic of discrediting people which did not have the same opinion as them. His work is characterised by the systematic use of primary italian sources (he has been sometime accused of having overused them :-)), which often he discovered personally digging in the ACS (the huge italian Archivio Centrale dello Stato in Rome EUR). The main problem with his work is that his masterpiece, the (unfortunately unfinished) biography of Mussolini, has never been translated because of its size (7,000 pages). But reading it, the judgement which comes out about Mussolini and Fascism is without appeal.

About the removal of Ciano's citation I agree with Costantine: it is a self-consolatory sentence by a Fascist which was one of the main responsibles of the Italian disaster and, above all, should be read in his context. Alex2006 (talk) 09:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that it is only the communists that think that he has a pro-fascist POV. This Jstor paper comments "Jan 8, 1989 - RENZO DE FELICE occupies a central and controversial position in the contemporary study of Italian fascism. Some historians hail his voluminous biography of Benito Mussolini, others think it looks suspiciously like a monument to the Duce". And this is only after a cursory look at Google. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 14:20, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Kinda missed Painter's argument that the historian and his work was mired in controversy because of the political culture, not soley because of his viewpoints. Not to mention, by the end of the essay Painter argues that his works are important and cannot simply be ignored (not necessarily an argument for inclusion in a wiki article, however). A casual look shows it is more complicated than lets not use him because some think he is a fascist or fascist leaning (despite his own socialist views).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:47, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I didn't miss anything and I repeat once more: Given his acknowledged controversial status we have to be careful in using him and we should examine his usage carefully in controversial matters. Again, please do not assume that I do not want to use this source under any circumstances. I simply want to use caution when using it, especially in controversial issues. Is this clear enough? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Extremely clear. I would like to say, I completely agree with the notion that when it comes to controversial sources they need to be used carefully (although, for the moment, I think the non-wiki controversy surrounding this source is more complicated that npov). I think this brings us nicely to the remaining point: was what was inserted into the article, attributed to this source, controversial?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't that clear? I think I covered this in my edit-summaries. You may disagree with me, but I can't see how you didn't notice my edit-summary comments. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:09, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Not really. Your edit-summaries are what made me look up Renzo De Felice and provide a summary of several historians opinion on him and his work. Hence why i stated earlier on that your comments in regards to work seemed harsh.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what was unclear about my edit-summaries. They were not that many and, in one of them, I specifically mentioned the passage that in my opinion was POV and therefore De Felice should not have been used to support it. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:54, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

As argued by more than one here, De Felice is not exactly off limits. So what exactly was POV about the statement that was added: "tied down"? Should this be broke down further? On 9 May, did Ciano visit Italian troops? If so, the troops he visited, had they "tied down" Greek forces? Should we also ask, since the whole paragraph has since been removed, what is wrong - reliable source wise - with Mitcham? Despite the colorful language, was he factual?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

First, "tied down" is unclear, POV and unencyclopedic. Given these attributes, and given that De Felice was used to support it, it was prudent to seek further clarification about the specific meaning of "tying down" the Greek army. If controversial and unclear terms are used, supported by controversial sources, and when context is unclear or absent, it is good practice to challenge such terms. As far as Ciano's predictably triumphalist pronouncements, they may have served their purpose at the time to boost Ciano's position in the fascist pecking order, but I don't think they add any value to the article in terms of imparting any real information, other than a sense of Ciano's self-aggrandisement. I'm not sure about what Mitcham was used for, so I can't comment about that. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:45, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't clear that the bulk of the Greek army was fighting the Italians in the Albanian frontier? If it made any difference in the end is a totally different matter. Uspzor (talk) 02:30, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I will check today what De Felice says at pg. 125 of his work. About Ciano's statements, I would like to point out that they come from his diary, so they were meant to remain private at least until his retirement from politics. About De Felice and his impact on modern storiography on Fascism one can usefully read these books about him and his work: among the authors, Emilio Gentile and Paolo Simoncelli are among the most important contemporary Italian historians. Of course he is controversial, but only because as historian he was a revolutionary, and in his work he always kept separated his moral judgement about Fascism from his research. Among others he rebuted the (italian communist) legend that Fascism had been an external body landed from outer space to oppress poor innocent italian people, introducing the notion of consenso, the consensus that millions of italians gave to the regime until the disasters of WWII (and in this respect the war against Greece was the happening which opened the eyes to many Italians, which became antifascist on the Albanian front). Alex2006 (talk) 07:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

At page 125 there is part of the discussion about the French-Italian armistice of june 1940: the pages about the Greco-Italian war are much more forward. Now, either the page number is wrong, or the bound edition was used for the reference, but also in that case p. 125 cannot be right. Alex2006 (talk) 07:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Operation Barbarossa was not delayed by the Italo-Greek war nor did it lead to its ultimate failure.

I think it's time to admit that the Italo-Greek war did not delay nor led to the failure of Operation Barbarossa. Instead, it is well known that the wet May weather, serious faults in logistics and underestimation of their Russian opponent, were the prime causes. I am sorry that it may hurt the nationalistic feelings of the Greeks, but frankly, while many patriotic Greeks may want to believe that they singlehandedly altered the course of the war, the reality is that for the Germans, the Greek theater was simply an annoying side-show. Throughout much of the war, Greece was a bit of a backwater. The real battles were happening on the Russian steppe, in North Africa and Normandy. AnnalesSchool (talk) 21:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Another pro-Italian attempt

The specific edit [[1]] is the epitomy of pov, "the Greeks were so hard pressed to hold the line against this latest Italian onslaught that General Pagagos "decided not to launch any further large-scale operations in Albania without Yugoslav assistance.". Not to mention that its completely out of the context of the primavera offensive, which, by the way, was another clear Greek victory. ("in the end the Tepelene offensive was succesfuully repulsed by the Greeks").Alexikoua (talk) 10:12, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

For instance the claim that the Greek side was "running low on reserves of men and war material." is a result of the fact that "by early March German intentions have became increasingly apparent. The danger of the German thrust... was serious ". I'm afraid that the editor who's is eager to add about the Greek weakness intentionally (and systematically) ignores the German threat in the Balkan theatre of operations in order to overemphasize the supposed Italian military supremacy. Thus, I won't object to present the full picture on each paragraph.Alexikoua (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm still puzzled why you object to the above. The reliability is not an issue as they are quotes taken from Craig Stockings and Hancock's "Swastika over the Acropolis". So how can it possibly be a POV issue?? It adds to the article, doesn't subtract from it, and is perfectly relevant because it reveals the state of the Greek Army on the Albanian front.

The section deals with the Tepelene offensive that commenced on the 10th March. Is there another Offensive I don't know about? The Telepene offensive failed to dislodge the Greeks, but one can hardly call it a "victory" for the Greeks, if by "victory" you mean that the boxer getting the heavy blows from his opponent is "still standing"?

I really don't understand what your objections are Alexikoua. Can you please explain them more clearly and perhaps we can reach a consensus of sorts? Do you want me to include something about the German threat in the rear?

You can't just revert edits without a good reason Alexkiou and then seek a compromise if you have a valid point.AnnalesSchool (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

It appears you have a quite weird interpratation of the facts (apart from cherry picking), since the Primavera offensive, as the Tepelene offensive is widely known, was a clear Italian defeat. As for the supposed Italian gains as you claim: The Italian spring offensive, which started on 9 March, made no headway, and the Greeks were able to hold their territorial gains until Germany entered the conflict".Alexikoua (talk) 14:03, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Something that may appear quite informative, is the conclusion drawn by Musolini himself about the so-called Italian victory you claim: zero.Alexikoua (talk) 14:16, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

But Alexikoua, you really aren't making much sense. The two quotes above have nothing to do with whether the Tepelene offensive was a defeat or not. Stockings and Hancock are merely stating that while the Tepelene offensive failed to dislodge the Greeks, they (and not me!) were only pointing out that "the Greeks were so hard pressed to hold the line against this latest Italian onslaught that General Papagos "decided not to launch any further large-scale operations in Albania without Yugoslav assistance." How on earth could you even object to this mild and matter of fact quote from Stockings and Hancock, I don't know. And the Greeks were running out of their reserve of men and materials, and that the Italian Army continued to pose: "an existential threat".

What in heaven's name are you actually objecting to? The truth?AnnalesSchool (talk) 14:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Their very interesting links to authors Alexikoua, but hardly relevant. I mean, you have your authors who make certain claims, and I have my authors who make certain claims that either agree or conflict. Isn't this what Wikipedia is all about, providing a cross section of views and debate? Why would your references over-ride my references? Let's have both!AnnalesSchool (talk) 14:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, to be precise you are cherry picking your own authors, have you ever reliazed that "by early March German intentions have became increasingly apparent. The danger of the German thrust from the Bulgarian border was serious"? Off course not, but Stockings and Hancock have realized it very well and the quote is from the same paragraph you are eager to add (2-3 lines below). Thus, to sum up, the problems of the Greek general stuff were due to the strong German presence in the Bulgarian Greek border in early March. Did you ever realized that Germans run the show? I doubt, but your favorite authors are very clear on that, in addition to a mountain a WWII bibliograpgy as presented. Italy did nothing more than 'zero', as Musolini admitted. You don't believe that zero means victory right? On the contrary it was defeat and humiliation of Musolini's regime.Alexikoua (talk) 16:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Alexioua, you are starting to sound like a revolving record and getting more and more desperate. One author you quoted states that the Italians achieved "zero" but while the Italians failed to push back the Greeks in the Tepelene offensive, Dr Stockings and Dr Hancock are merely stating that while the Italian offensive failed to dislodge the Greeks, the Greeks suffered 5000 casualties and were running low on reserves of manpower and munitions. Here is what Stockings maintained: "Despite the fact that the Greeks held off the Telepene push, from mid-March it was clear to Papagos that there were not enough Greek troops to hold against both the Italians and a potential German thrust on the Bulgarian front." (p.78). Why is this so hard to understand and accept? Please put aside your strident Greek nationalism and start to accept reality and historical truth for a change.AnnalesSchool (talk) 22:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Stockings and Hancock

According to Stockings and Hancock, by the first week of March, "the General Greek staff were facing a number of serious problems." Not only was the conflict intensifying with the Italians, but they were running low on reserves of men and war material. The Italians presented what they called, an "existential threat" that continued to pin down the bulk of the Greek Army

However, the Greeks were so hard pressed to hold the line against this latest Italian onslaught that General Pagagos "decided not to launch any further large-scale operations in Albania without Yugoslav assistance."

What exactly is wrong with the above? Can you explain your objections more clearly Alexikoua and propose some sort of solution?AnnalesSchool (talk) 22:45, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

References