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Bookku

Topic banned indefinitely from the intersection of Pakistan and Feminism, appealable after six months--RegentsPark (comment) 22:40, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Bookku

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: USaamo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:30, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Bookku (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBIPA or whichever applies

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Repeatedly blamed me for victim blaming in discussions despite my clarifications (1, 2)
Told by User:Thinker78 about WP:BLPPUBLIC but still held a vague RfC blaming me for non-cooperation (3, 4)
Editors commented in the RfC about suspects to be WP:PUBLICFIGURE but still not accepting it (5)
Told about difference between WP:BLPPUBLIC and WP:NBIO but still bent on otherwise (6, 7)
Bludgeoning the process users told him to be concise but continues to create walls of texts making difficult for editors to have a say (8, 9)
Calls himself a South Asian gender studies student but his editing mostly centred around pushing POV against one country and sometimes one community (10, 11)
Accepted his POV in the topic area (12)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

N/A

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict (diff, diff)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I have previously worked with User:Bookku over Feminism related articles and was ready to discuss the additions to 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault and expected him to assume good faith on my behalf but he made it quite a dispute. Since the start of discussion he continuously blamed me for victim blaming even though I clarified multiple times that I do not deny the happening of incident but there are other things that needs a inclusion for balancing the article and neutrality. He was not ready to accept the inclusion based on WP:BLPPUBLIC and making WP:OR and WP:SYNTH based arguments. He was also not ready to accept the other editor view who came on his notice to some project but held a vague RfC (as called by editors there) where most editors opined the suspects to be Public Figures for the purpose. He still did not accep their views and wilfully brings WP:NBIO to be criteria to include someone's name in the article which is criteria for a person to have separate article and was told about it. Bludgeoning the discussion by bringing irrelevant things to the discussion and creating walls of texts for which a couple of editors requested him to be concise but seems like he always does this as evident from his talkpage discussions. Although he calls himself South Asian gender studies student but his editing is mostly centred around pushing POV against a specific country and sometimes a community. He is even warned for shenanigans for an undue addition and singling out a specific country by User:TrangaBellam. He accepted his POV in his editing in the subject area contrary to Wikipedia is Not Advocacy and WP:NOTFORUM for which he was previously told as well. One more thing which is though a couple of years back happening but since we both were directly involved in a redirect discussion where I was called supporter of Pakistani deep state, promoting Armed Forces' narrative, wisher of soft censors by him.

In conclusion his behaviour seems like just lingering on the matter in an attempt to exhaust contributing editors by doing argument for the sake of argument, refusal to accept the other views and hell bent on resisting these changes and inability to understand the situation to follow policies and guidelines. USaamo ^(t@lk) 14:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Robert McClenon thanks for your mediation offer, you have my full cooperation. Appologies that my response got longer in last discussion but before that I tried to be as concise as possible. He kept on making long replies for which I reluctantly have to reply but still he said to me that I'm not co-operating and his concerns remain unaddressed. In last thread I just combined my responses from above in a single post as I was not in a mood to reply again and again. USaamo ^(t@lk) 10:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Deepfriedokra since @User:Johnuniq himself saying that sources does say it, on Wikipedia content needs to be sourced. I believe its inclusion for reasons I explained here esp 2nd and 3rd point. In brief Police found the said audiotape from victim's associate phone as call recording which is quite likely. The same guy later turned to be the main accused as charged by her. Also audiotapes are not denied by any party and are admitted fact in proceedings since victim charged her associate on its basis and accused himself accepted the tapes reiterating it in his statement that victim wanted to extort money and I disagreed with her so she charged me.
Anyway AE is not a place to discuss content disagreements for which I've expressed my full cooperation to RM. But other than this dispute there are POV issues with Booku's editing as well which need some kind of action. For not accepting an RfC outcome I was partially topic banned from here two years back which I accept I was wrong and happened because of my inexperienced approach but I have no agenda of any sort. I would also like to mention observations of an experienced editor User:Fowler&fowler from an AN3 thread who worked alot for NPOV in ARBIPA area for a general reference. (13, 14, 15) USaamo ^(t@lk) 11:30, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aman.kumar.goel I have abided by my topic ban from articles of wars between India-Pakistan and I haven't even appealed it after two years for which I was eligible after 6 months because I don't want to edit in that area.(16) I edited The Kashmir Files once only thinking it to be a film article and had no further intention of editing it but when I was told by User:EdJohnston that the said page also cover my topic ban, I duly abided by it. You bringing that here seems to settle the left over scores against me like always. While you yourself have been the editor mostly up on nationalistic lines as noted by editors (17, 18) and your recent undue addition of similar pattern to 2022 Pakistan floods reverted by me and subsequent edit warring by relatively new accounts to add it reverted by other editors. (19, 20)
@User:Dennis Brown the said talk page has three discussions opened by Bookku and I remained as concise as possible in first two discussions but he kept on making long comments for which I reluctantly have to reply, still he said to me that I'm not co-operating and his concerns remain unaddressed. My response only got longer in last thread where I just combined my responses from above discussions in a single post as I was exhausted after seeing another long discussion by him. USaamo ^(t@lk) 13:44, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bookku, My body my choice and Mera Jism Meri Marzi was another case of WP:UNDUE from you since MJMM was an Urdu slogan with no history or usage outside Pakistan while Mbmc had a global usage where that was best suited. I explained that on talkpage before removal. And that redirect discussion was not a humorous essay but a serious discussion and there was no joke happening there. USaamo ^(t@lk) 10:48, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Inline with TarangaBellam's observation about Bookku's drafts; he started Draft:Pawri Ho Rahi Hai which was rejected at AFC and then he started RfC to determine the topic's notability against due process and as in his responses here too he stressed on RfCs to be the only way out(quite ironic of him since he's not accepting the RfC outcome in the ongoing dispute). I was not much opposed to the said draft but he wanted me to do it without discriminating between Pakistan India sources as South Asians only in discussion. In his article My body, my choice too he mentioned India Pakistan just as South Asia while mentioning all other countries with name. Well both Pakistan India comes in South Asia but they have distinct identities which comes first. Wikipedia policies and nationalities can't be simply ignored because he likes it this way.(21) USaamo ^(t@lk) 21:21, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

diff

Discussion concerning Bookku

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Bookku

Requesting goodfaith. Pardon me for minor hiccups, spare for bad faith attacks on my talk page some of which I might not have replied. Over all I have been following WP policies to best of my understanding.
My re to TB. (1)
Previously covered a bio regarding Public spaces. Non–military mass sexual assault (Indian incidence draft pending for very old ref books) caught my editorial attention months before Pakistan incidence (2). Noted other global incidences @ Talk:M.S.A for later expansion.
Few other examples of my editorial neutrality: ( 3, 4, 5)
See time stamps of My body, my choice was started before USaamo's Mera Jism Meri Marzi. Mb,mc is global in nature not targeting Pakistan only. @ MJMM I added Indian feminist issues and USaamo and other Pakistani users removed reserving the article for Pakistan. Can provide many more editorial neutrality examples on request.
Dif cited by USaamo (6) itself is proof I am not personalizing but the case may be otherwise (7), In another cited case ( 8) I was in light-hearted passed comment with smiley at beginning to bring a point home (then didn't know One has to specifically note humor as humor, I request pardon for.) but that too did not intend to name/ target USaamo in any way. (I have other humor related drafts too.)

Assuring you all, I am very much here to build encyclopedia constructively. Pl. let me know any other/ more clarification needed. Thanks Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 04:29, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Deepfriedokra First para in my user page is already clear, I can work in whatever area of cosmos available. While I put my agencies to utilization but I am not sure the description '..seeking to right great wrongs ..' fits me well in spite of POVs, since I don't believe WP is last resort.
I do have a long list of examples of my well sourced relevant and even very neutral content being deleted or declined and I have not made even any RfCs for most of them. This time too if it would not have been serious BLP violation (agreed of being BLP violation at least 4 users by now) I would not have taken to this length. In spite BLP rules would have allowed me to delete directly or create RfC for direct deletion I am going to great length to seek mediation and best possible accommodation.
You are admins, your decisions I would surely respect and accept. The concern is this time itself a user selectively clubbed multiple bad faith attacks and came here asking for admonishment of mine. You admonish me next time some one like them will have more authentic admonishment to add in their list and corner me. WP political realms can do very well without my contributions. How many nonBLP consistent contributors WP has on women's rights front?
Even if some content is believed to be WP:Undue why it can not go through content dispute resolution mechanism at respective talk pages and needs to be personalized and brought to this forum in this fashion is not entirely clear to me.
Your admonishments are not an issue, the users keep finding it easy unquestioned route to personalise issues in stead of preferring talk page resolutions of content disputes, concerns me more.
You all are experienced admins you must have gone through all such discussions earlier too, it is all for you to decide. I will respect and accept whatever you decide. Thanks Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Deepfriedokra I read through Aman.kumar.goel. For some one like me academically sourced edits like this ( 9) giving all sides can be example of ideal neutrality. But when narrative of every side gets affected, people tend to trade some strange adverse charges. Why all those content disputes can't go through RfCs ? rather than clubbing all strange misrepresentations and corner or oust uncomfortable neutral user.
- Why don't we have a condition every one bringing up charges over here prove neutrality of respective strangely charging users first. I know that inconvenient won't happen here.
- Is not that usual Wiki gaming. I understand admins too have to grow and live through same environment and systems. And I would understand whatever your decision you take. As of now I bow out. Many thanks Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 13:28, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@El C, The whole thing is simple content disputes and 'we don't like it' so 'we will take ARE shortcut' attitude of some users. If you do not agree with me I will take 72 hours break on my own. This is primarily case of a BLP policy violation in plain sight. Other 4 users seem to classify it as BLP policy violation 1a, 1b, 2 (This user says ".. still fails BLP on other grounds .."). If proper BLP protocol would have been followed, I would not have needed to write a single sentence. See time stamp @ Wikipedia talk:Dispute resolution noticeboard I said ".. It is close call. .. I am seeking guidance in writing briefly and systematically the way it happens in DRN ..".

Bookku (talk) 16:54, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also while I am very much following protocol mentioned WP:DDE guideline the accusing side seem to miserably fail the protocol mentioned in the guideline. Bookku (talk) 12:06, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reply with details 2

Statement by Bookku (2)

This is additional subsection for ease of navigation and reading.

^[Humor] In Textbook case things seem going on lines, where mob ready to WP:BLUDGEON even a dead horse alleging WP:BLUDGEON. Group of triggered pupils in the school pressuring their hall monitors to clip the wings of fellow student alleging the student has flaws in completion of assignments (he simply writes what we don't like!) hence that student's behaviour ought to be considered bad and punished for. Every one would not understand such parallel or may not like it they might call names bully more, that is fate of that student. They can also take this opportunity to say that this user even does not understand Wikipedia is not forum or standup comedy stage and trail show must reach to it's decided **logical end. :) End of humor note.
If this ARE is the ultimate forum for content decisions then why not officially acknowledge that. And when big pile of charges is being brought by multiple users against a single one that single one need to get reasonable time to provide response at least for mental satisfaction.

Following is more for my own mental satisfaction and record.

I have already submitted whatever closing admins action would be I shall co operate constructively.
At times whether to respond back or not is quite catch-22. On one hand lectures being handed over to me being asked to be concise, to their long list now even funny charges being added, idk, intends to just mock me or subvert the system. Now usual content deletions of my sourced contributions like at even Non-vegetarian are being cited as great examples of my bad personal record. I am confused Idk whether to laugh or cry.
Here roughly 9 months before TB wrote to me ".. Love in Pakistan and Urdu Feminist Literature are fascinating (and valid) topics - if you need resources, give a ping. I will take up the article on forced conversion. .." But as soon as women's issues are covered at Public spaces their patriarchal structure and power on Wikipedia feels threatened.
Take google.com, books.google.com, scholar.google.com search for "Public spaces" "women" and various countries names including Pakistan, for many countries including Pakistan entire WP articles can be written and substantial part can be criticism, Let global women know why a sections dedicated to women issues in public spaces can not be there in Public spaces article and all women related issues are to be compulsively restricted to special for women articles. Why public spaces article can not be opened. Was there any restriction to begin with Pakistan and later adding others? Some one already covering those sources will naturally cover that. Show me existing article talk page RfC consensus against. Is that affecting male power structures on Wikipedia that I am being mansplained and dislodged. For that they bring me to ARE with repeating fake bad faith attacks of proven long duration sock accounts? (More details on request or visit later User:Bookku/ARE for updates)
One likes or not likes or not, as of this day 1969 Rabindra Sarobar Stadium en masse sexual violence controversy is first known on record non conflict time en masse sexual violence controversy with multiple reliable sources for notability. Idk why any one should be afraid that to be covered.
Examples after examples (17) like this one show my best possible editorial neutrality. With all humility I submit, if any one feels my content is not perfect then should have been discussed on article talk pages without resorting to personalization tactics.

I would request discussion closing admin to let me know if they want any specific content related clarifications from me for the baseless pile of them submitted by USaamo AKG and TB. Any detail logical scrutiny will prove most of that to be just frivolous much of it making mountains out of molehills intending to smear and hound for their own POVs being hurt in some way. As such I shall update my detail submission with detail study at User:Bookku/ARE as time permits me.
Last but not least, in any case, let me wish best luck to ongoing hounding and synchronized symphonies for times to come. I repeat I have already submitted whatever closing admins action would be I shall co operate constructively.

Bookku (talk) 13:48, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Own sign is updated with fresh to avoid bloating

Reply with details 3

Statement by Bookku (3)

The latest reply of T.B. 18 shows continuation of unnecessary diatribe proves their WP:IDONTLIKETHEM strategy, to respond or not is quite catch 22 to me. If I don't respond they shall continue take ARE forum and Admin confidence for granted, continue bypassing regular content dispute mechanism by making blatant misrepresentations here, not only for me but multitude of other users in times to come. If I respond admins will need to enter in detail content analysis and end up saying detail content analysis is not my job at this forum. This way TB and company seems to be manipulating and misusing ARE in plain sight.
Any ways topic is raised I address as brief as possible. If you do not want to take google search yourself, Ask @ WP:Reference desk/Humanities if they can find any other notable 'non conflict time en masse sexual violence controversy' before the Calcutta controversy. The day you find one, ignore my words and update the article Mass sexual assault for the same, I will be first to thank any one for any such efforts. If not then one ought to examine Calcutta controversy thoroughly and not just by selective reading. An autobiography or authorized biographies written by any one how those can be last word in themselves. How do you ignore what other reliable sources are saying just like that. The controversy had been covered by multiple reputable Indian print media and analysts. The quote TB is giving weight to, itself says, ".. and catcalls soon turned to more physical expressions and .. . Women too were allegedly molested.". Jyoti Basu's biography does not ignore controversy but includes it and you want to censor it?

Words 'alleged' and 'controversy' means this really happened as claimed or not we don't know. We Wikipedians can not sit on judgement, if reliable media and sources are covering it it has to be on Wikipedia. You are not supposed to sensor. Would you not consider what women parliamentarians said ?
".. On 14th April 1969 members of Lok Sabha debated various incidences and situation in West Bengal. In respect to Rabindra Sarobar stadium incidence Congress leaders namely Sucheta Kripalani, Sharda Mukherji and A. K. Sen, former Law Minister, criticized unconstrained hooliganism at the Rabindra Sarobar stadium in which many women were molested and subjected to every forms of humiliation. .."
".. The issue came again in Lok Sabha on 10 th December 1970 Ila Pal Chaudhari asked who was author of the Rabindra Sarovar incident? Jyotirmoy Basu said a High court judge has given lie to that. Ila Pal Choudhury responded back saying it is it is a heart-rending; women came to her crying; they showed their clothes which had been torn. Pal Chaudhari says, in reality, commission of inquiry headed by the High Court judge turned out to be a farce since it was not allowed to function freely, because witnesses and the lawyers including including Pal Chaudhari's own counsel were intimidated with grave threats as none will be left alive in their family if any one gives evidence. .." ~ Ila Pal Choudhury * Lok Sabha is India's parliament and person with similar name 'Jyotirmoy Basu' is parliamentarian of Jyoti Basu's party. You don't know Jyoti Basu was not chief minister but just home minister then. His then Chief Minister Atulya Ghosh himself publicly protested against own ministers and later resigned.
At least one contemporary leftist Calcutta newspaper too criticized incidence. Another leftist investigative journalist from another Indian state traveled to Calcutta plays down with words rapes not likely to have happened but agrees incidence of molestation likely to have taken place. Then other news papers including Indian Express with then reputable editor Frank Moraes, Reputable Bengali Journalist Barun Sengupta and at least one research paper of North Bengal university discusses the controversy. You are free to deny what you did not see yourself, how you can deny notability of controversy widely covered in contemporary media and books?

Do you want all those paragraphs and references at this forum itself or you will sincerely address the topic looking for old references including those you don't like and discussing at appropriate talk pages first.

It is whose mistake I had to type wall of text here itself. Will you blame me for providing logical credible presentation too?

I am not used to personalizing content disagreements in this way, though I do have more proofs against such questionable maneuvers. "I repeat, manipulation and misuse of this forum to oust unwanted content and contributors is quite frustrating. Problem is not me getting unfairly punished likelihood of other genuine users too may keep suffering concerns me much more." (Please read again 10000 times.)

Bookku (talk) 06:59, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TB

Will make a statement in support of a logged warning. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:14, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Booku is essentially trying to right great wrongs - that is what I perceived of his rambling reply to RegentsPark's AC/DS alert, prodded by me. Such a political stance is not condemnable —much less, blockable— in itself and is the raison d'être of acclaimed Wiki-projects like Women In Red etc.

However, as the mindboggling edits on Public Space (diff-ed by Johnuniq), Drowning (link), and Tourism in Pakistan (link) show, Booku either does not understand our core content policies concerning DUEness of content or chooses to flout them intentionally. Besides, there are inane article creations like Superstitions in Sikh societies (check history) filled with dubious sources and dubious content derived from illogical synthesis. To compound things, their walls of text are mostly irrelevant to the issue at hand, makes for painful reading, and only serves to digress.

All in all, I think a good case is made for an indefinite TBan, at least from all topics connected to Pakistan, and women. Alongside a logged warning that any further shenanigan will extend the Topic Ban to include India. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rosguill, thanks for the query. I meant the latter option (union); not certain that my choice of punctuation was appropriate. The intersection won't work - see RegentsPark's evidence of strange drafts lying in his user-space.

I express my firm disagreement to Deepfriedokra's and Dennis Brown's idea of a time-limited TBan. This is not some garden-variety case of edit-warring to necessitate a cooling-off penalty! As RegentsPark — one of the few administrators who patrols S. Asian topics — notes, there is a borderline CIR issue at play and it is irrational to expect the problems to go away in a span of few months! Booku has been here for years and he has been made aware of these issue by multiple editors (see evidence by AKG). My proposed scope of topic ban is quite narrow and if Booku can edit competently in other areas, I won't oppose an appeal as and when it is filed. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Came across Booku's edits at Non-vegetarian and yet again, a fundamental disregard for NPOV, DUE etc. Much of those additions have been removed by others. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:48, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I will add another (the last; please bear with me) evidence and expand in some detail, which exemplifies everything that is problematic with Booku's editing. Over the course of a few many edits, Booku added the following paragraph in wikivoice to Rabindra Sarobar Stadium:

Analysis

In the first quarter of 1968 at the Rabindra Sarobar Stadium, a scheduled musical night of large gathering, called 'Ashok Kumar Nite', failed to take place due to faulty amplifiers; mob went unruly, women attending the gathering were molested and sexually abused en masse. [...]

Now, what do the (three) cited sources say?

The first source is the (unofficial) mouthpiece of the political party, which governed the state during the incident. I won't rely on it for anything and even then, it contains a single (indirect) reference:

There is still an enquiry in progress on certain reported incidents in Rabindra Sarobar stadium in July when there was to be held what was called Ashok Kumar "nite", in aid of the reputed Bombay actor. Brassieres were alleged to be all over the place, as the whole show broke up in chaos.

The second source is a contemporary speech by Hem Barua, a legislator from an opposition party, belonging to another state (Assam). He taunts the Government of West Bengal to launch an enquiry on the incident, albeit to deflect from a discussion that centered on another issue (firing on workers who striked):

If you are so enthusiastic about holding inquiries [on the firing], why don't you hold an inquiry into the incident that happened in Rabindra Sarobar Stadium where women were made naked, women had to return home in a state of nakedness? Then what happened, Sir? After this discovery, a large quantity of torn sarees and torn brassiers were found there on the spot. The incident at the Rabindra Sarobar Stadium was a ghastly incident and I want to say that, instead of holding a parallel inquiry into the Cossipore firing incident, the State Government, if it is so enthusiastic about holding an inquiry, can hold an inquiry into the incident at the Rabindra Sarobar Stadium where women were humiliated and insulted. Even today I hear - this is my report; I do not know how far this is correct - that 30 women are missing because of this incident. Whatever that my be, that was a ghastly scene or a ghastly spectacle and I say that an inquiry should be held into it.

It shall be obvious to not rely on partisan political tirades, though they might be true.

Now comes the relatively-decent third source - a biography (albeit, official) of the-then Deputy Chief Minister by an academic:

The first major problem he had to deal with occurred in April 1969 and threatened to tarnish the reputation of his ministry. A musical soirée, Ashok Kumar Night, at Rabindra Sarobar stadium tumed ugly. The immediate cause of the audience's restiveness was faulty amplifiers. Boos and catcalls soon turned to more physical expressions and an angry audience started to throw chairs at the stage. Women too were allegedly molested.
The police, who were attacked with grenades, crackers and other missiles, were compelled to open fire and fifty people were injured. The media played up the incident and reported several deaths, claiming that corpses had been fished out of the adjoining lake. Maverick politician Raj Narain, ever willing to fish in troubled waters, issued an official statement saying that the police found two truckloads of women's undergarments. [compare with Hem Barua's speech.]
At the time, Basu was in New Delhi where a deputation of women belonging to the Jana Sangh came to meet him to protest against the incident. In reality, the audience had turned unruly and had completely ignored the police orders to stay calm. The police action was the only way to restore order. The United Front government ordered a judicial enquiry into the incident. By now the Congress Party, aided by the Centre, as well as some members of the ruling front itself, had begun efforts to dislodge the United Front government. Accusations of the misuse of government machinery were voiced and the United Front was accused of being dictatorial and non-cooperative. The Centre fanned the flames.

Do you see anything of this in the original paragraph, added by Booku despite the citation? I leave it to you to decide whether Booku is plainly incompetent or .... TrangaBellam (talk) 15:20, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

is first known on record non conflict time en masse sexual violence controversy

Somebody ban this editor from anything that has to with women, please. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:34, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@RegentsPark, Deepfriedokra, Johnuniq, and Dennis Brown:: This has been stale for over a week. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:58, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Robert McClenon

I became aware of the dispute over 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault and of Bookku on 11 September, when Bookku posted to the DRN talk page asking for mediation; see Wikipedia_talk:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Mediation_help_request_@_article_talk_page. The posts of both Bookku and USaamo are too long, didn't read in detail. Bookku was saying that they would be requesting assistance at DRN and at BLPN. I advised Bookku against forum shopping and said to file in one place. Bookku replied and said they would also need help from other pages. It appears that Bookku is running around in a panic and not helping things. Both Bookku and USaamo need to be civil and concise. I haven't researched the details of the article dispute. If there is a content dispute, I am willing to try to mediate, but will impose word limits and other restrictions. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification

This may be a restatement of the obvious, but if a topic ban is imposed, I will not be mediating a dispute over an area where the subject is not permitted to edit. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Aman.kumar.goel

@Deepfriedokra and Johnuniq USaamo remains topic banned from conflicts related to India and Pakistan,[1] and has violated that topic ban as recently as May 2022.[2] USaamo treated allegations as facts on this diff and wrote it in wikivoice. That was a BLP violation. On talk page, USaamo tells Bookku to "be concise in discussions as your comments are bludgeoning the process by creating walls of text and are a cause of exhaustion for editors"[3] but USaamo himself wrote walls of texts.[4][5]

Topic ban of USaamo should be extended to cover whole ARBIPA.

Bookku is not understanding about the nature of their POV pushing. He has been already warned over WP:UNDUE, NotAForum, bludgeoning in the recent months. However, the activity of Bookku on Public Space,[6] and 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault[7][8] shows he has ignored these warnings and above message confirms great chances of similar disruption.

Bookku should be topic banned as well. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 12:06, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Replies from both editors, Bookku and USaamo, to my above comment reinforces my view that both of them need a topic ban to cover whole WP:ARBIPA. They simply don't see what is wrong with their own editing. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 22:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Bookku

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Awaiting statement by TG. Noted Robert's statement. Hopefully, this can be resolved without AE action.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:46, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Willing to go with a logged warning per TG, and in hopes of dispute resolution with Robert. Unless someone has a better idea. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 02:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Bookku I'm afraid it is glaringly obvious you've brought a personal point of view and possibly an 0ff-Wiki agenda into the encyclopedia. Your latest post makes me feel that while you are capable of leaving that agenda out of your editing, you have at times chosen to include it. I'm willing to "admonish only" if it is clear you will cease and desist from the POV pushing moving forward. USaamo, it looks like your edits have been unfortunate as well. I echo what Johnuniq has said below. More concise and clear information is always useful. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:11, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@TrangaBellam: I thought you would be arguing for a warning. Now I must reëvaluate. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:04, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Read it all, and I support Dennis Brown's short-duration (about 1 month) TBAN proposal. The intersection of Pakistan and women/feminism seems a good starting point. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 13:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@TrangaBellam: Point taken. Will defer to my colleagues on indef vs time limited. The time limited seems a happy middle ground between a warning and an indef. @Bookku: If we go with short duration TBAN, please see it as a boon and an opportunity. If we must address this matter again, the result might be more than a indefinite duration TBAN, considering issues TG has raised. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 13:59, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I will ask my colleague El C to close this. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Bookku added a section on Pakistan at Public space (diff). That was totally WP:UNDUE in that article and indicative of someone seeking to right great wrongs. However, USaamo's edit at 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault (diff) with claims of "alleged audiotapes" (with a handy ^dubious tag!) in the lead is worse (yes, the sources said that but don't add "dubious" material to the lead merely to repeat gossip—how likely is it that someone has an audio recording of a conversation showing criminal intent on their phone?). I would like to see if there is further commentary that might enlighten us regarding whether something stronger than a logged warning is needed. I agree that other editors need relief from walls of text. Johnuniq (talk) 03:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Couple of points: Aman.kumar.goel, does raise some interesting questions, that this may be the pot calling the kettle black, but more importantly, I want to point out that writing one or two TLDR comments is not the same thing as WP:BLUDGEONing (itself a subset of WP:DE), as bludgeoning is a pattern of doing so, usually in the same thread or topic. From what I see, this looks like someone trying to Right Great Wrongs, and while a logged warning is ok, I guess, I get the feeling we will be back here soon enough. This is where I differ from my compatriots, and think timed tbans can be effective, as a month off a subject but with the promise of being able to return may provide incentive. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:14, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to formally weigh in on this case based on past interactions with editors party to it, but I do have a clarifying question: TrangaBellam, is your intended suggestion for a TBAN of the topical intersection of Pakistan and women, or of separate TBANs for topics pertaining to Pakistan and topics pertaining to women? _signed,Rosguill ^talk 19:25, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I support some sort of topic ban. TrangaBellam brought Bookku to my attention and a look at their contributions shows a focus, not necessarily misplaced, on womens rights issues in India and Pakistan. However, the steamroller approach demonstrated in Public space, Talk:2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault, Draft:Hermeneutics of feminism in Sikhism, other declined drafts, and the rambling response to my templated notice are problematic and borderline WP:CIR. Perhaps a topic ban on topics related to women? A timed one like Dennis Brown is suggesting? That might give them some space to explore other topics, get comfortable with incremental editing, and then return to the gender area which appears to be of significant interest to them?--RegentsPark (comment) 23:10, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. On responding to an ECP edit request, I came cross this hard-to-figure-out discussion. I'm beginning to think that we may have a CIR issue.--RegentsPark (comment) 17:58, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
DFO asked me to close this, but I probably owe closure to WP:AE#Jargo Nautilus before any other report on this board. But I'll make 2 notes, a general one and one specific to this complaint.

First, the general one: my view on timed TBANs is that rarely, if ever, they're useful. Could this be that one rare exception? I suppose it's possible, but there would have to be a good reason.

My 2nd note that's specific to this complaint concerns its length. Which is to say: disregard for this board's 500-word limit rule. As it stands, USaamo and TrangaBellam each exceed it by more than double, while Bookku by over 4 times. So I don't know what to do about that at this point, as it's a bit late in the day. Still, if parties and reviewers really want fresh eyes on this, then I dunno, maybe work to collapse...? Good luck! El_C 14:23, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to close this with the narrowest of sanctions (Pakistan and feminism) appealable in six months. Will leave this open for a bit in case there are other views. --RegentsPark (comment) 15:45, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster

There is a consensus to lift Grandmaster's topic ban from the AA2 subject area. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 18:39, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Grandmaster

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:13, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Topic ban appeal

I would like to appeal my indefinite AA topic ban per this report: [9] by User:Armatura (now indef banned). I was reported for posting a link to a news site article in a talk page discussion. While I agree that the link that I posted was not a reliable source, I never used it in the article, nor did I propose to use it. But it was a poor choice, of which I regret. I understand that I should use better discretion when selecting sources, even if they are intended just for illustrative purposes. I promise not to make the same mistake again. Another reason for Tban was mentioning an IWPR reporter's Armenian nationality to demonstrate the usage of the discussed term in various countries and the reporter not being an Azerbaijani propaganda source. I understand that mentioning nationality during a dispute, even for good faith reasons, could potentially create a battleground atmosphere. As Rosguill advised, I should have just limited myself to pointing out that IWPR was not in cahoots with the Azerbaijani government. It was a mistake on my part that I promise never to repeat.

After my first appeal I was advised to take some time off (6 months at least) to edit other areas, which I did. [10]

In the last 6 months, in addition to various edits, I created two new articles: Fyodor Arturovich Keller, about a notable historical figure of the Russian revolution era, and Destroyed Russian military equipment exhibition, related to the war in Ukraine. The former became a DYK and was featured on Wikipedia main page. I have been a long time contributor to Wikipedia, I made more than 24,000 edits, and I contributed pretty much to every notable article about Azerbaijan, and created many new ones. Right before the ban, I created another DYK article, Lazar Bicherakhov, which was one of the most viewed hooks of March 2022, and largely rewrote the article about Gobustan State Historical and Cultural Reserve, which is a world heritage site, and was in a very bad shape. I think I could positively contribute to improving Azerbaijan related articles, as I did for many years, so I would like to ask the admins to lift the topic ban. Thank you very much. Grandmaster 14:13, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sanctioning admin is User:Rosguill. I did not personally notify him. Sorry, I did not know that I had to personally notify him. I have notified him now. Grandmaster 18:15, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

El_C, thanks for letting me know. Grandmaster 19:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Johnuniq, thanks for commenting. Regarding your question, I have not been sanctioned in the last 15 years, until this tban. Grandmaster 08:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Grandmaster

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Grandmaster

Statement by (username)

Statement by Abrvagl

During my newbie days, Grandmaster suddenly stopped responding to the ongoing discussion, despite the fact that I pinged him several times. I only found out Grandmaster was Tbanned after another user explained me. That piqued my interest because it was new to me, so I began exploring the case.

I will be honest here, my first impression was that Grandmaster was targeted, because, as I understood from Grandmamster’s reply[11], same user filed number of reports on him in a short period of time. I didn't fully understand what warranted indefinite Tban at the time, but after reading the appeal, it became crystal clear to me, and I actually took some lessons learned from it. I believe that the fact that the individual understands what he did wrong may identicate that he has improved his behavior and addressed concerns. What I don't quite understand is which policy defines duration of the ban and this confuses my understanding. For example, a user, who assume the ethnicity of other editors and challenge RfC outcome based on ethnicity of participants, get a 2-month Tban [12], while other editor get an indefinite Tban for highlighting the reporter's ethnicity to prove the article is not Azerbaijani propaganda.

With regards to appeal, considering the fact that Grandmaster understood his mistake and given the points raised by Rosguill, I would opt for a trial period during which any battleground mentality from Grandmaster will result in an immediate Tban. I believe giving Grandmaster a trial Tban lift is a reasonable solution, because, as Rosguill suggested, how else can editor demonstrate that concerns regarding the A-A are addressed if he cannot contribute in that area? A b r v a g l^(PingMe) 21:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Grandmaster

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Just a quick question: Grandmaster, who is the sanctioning admin and have you informed them about this appeal? El_C 17:44, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster, thanks. Yes, it's required. Because it wouldn't make sense to evaluate the sanction imposed by said admin in absentia. El_C 18:46, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the request here addresses the issues that led to the report the ended in the ban, and if this request had been made by a relatively new account I would have no issues lifting the ban. My lingering concern is that Grandmaster, at the time they made the errors that led to the ban, had been actively editing Wikipedia for well over a decade, and the fact that they would still make such flimsy arguments suggests to me that these were not naive errors but rather intentional opportunism motivated by an entrenched battleground mentality. Grandmaster is clearly capable of doing good editing work outside of A-A, but the presentation of such work is neither here nor there as far as underlying battleground concerns go. I recognize that it is hard-to-impossible for an editor to produce evidence that would prove that such underlying concerns have been addressed, so I do feel bad about saying (!voting?) no at this time, but I can't say that I really see cause to lift the TBAN. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 19:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If there has been no recent battling, well after this TBAN was imposed, I would feel safe unTBANNing.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe in the WP:ROPE principle which suggests that it is easy to reinstate a sanction (would that principle unleash a reformed editor or someone better able to POV push while avoiding sanctions?). Nevertheless, my quick look did not find a knock-out reason showing that the tban should be forever. Has Grandmaster been sanctioned before, other than the last block which was for edit warring in 2007? I'm on the fence given Rosguill's reluctance above but am inclined to unban. Johnuniq (talk) 02:40, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would tend to agree with Deepfriedokra and Johnuniq here. Grandmaster has been around long enough to know that further misbehavior in this area will very likely lead to reinstatement of the sanctions (at minimum), and that third chances are a whole lot harder to get than second ones. I am not entirely without reluctance, but I would be inclined to give such a second chance. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:41, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Request for 1RR at Crisis pregnancy center

Crisis pregnancy center (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is placed under an indefinite 72-hour 1RR. Any admin may impose a BRD restriction, in addition to or in place of this 1RR, without need for further AE discussion. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:51, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request for 1RR at Crisis pregnancy center

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Tryptofish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion#Motion: Abortion (September 2020)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This is not a request for sanctions against any particular editor. Rather, per the instructions at the top of this page, it is a request that administrator(s) enact, as an administrator action authorized under the Abortion case DS, a WP:1RR page restriction at Crisis pregnancy center (not the talk page, just the page itself). As shown in the link above, there was previously a 1RR restriction at all pages in the topic area of the DS, that was lifted in 2020. Here, I'm requesting that it be added back on a single page, for at least a while, while there is a dispute that is being discussed on the article talk page, where there is an ongoing RfC and related discussion. A look at the page edit history shows no 3RR violations, but a significant amount of slow edit warring: [13]. Alternatively, I guess you could full protect the page. In any case, I think it would be helpful to keep the debate on the talk page, at least until the RfC is over. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tamzin's analysis is correct, and it's ok with me if the decision is against doing this. But I'll suggest that the knowledge of a 1RR restriction would have the effect of making editors think twice before making reverts, and that would be a good thing in the current context. It's not just about a need to tamp down on edit warring, but also a matter of refocusing attention onto talk while the issues are still being discussed. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help but to notice that things quieted down as soon as I made this request and posted at the article talk page that I had made it. I think it would be fine to have a 72-hour 1RR, but per Johnuniq, I'd recommend against having a BRD requirement. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:52, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There was another revert today, and it looks like it was timed to avoid a 72-hour window: [14]. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:46, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I notified the editor who made that edit: [15], that I had commented on it here. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:05, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of this filing at article talk page: [16]

Discussion concerning Request for 1RR at Crisis pregnancy center

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Request for 1RR at Crisis pregnancy center

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

There's a lot of reverting, but it moves slow. In the past month of edits, a 24-hour 1RR would have prevented Pbritti's 2nd revert of the 7th, Goodtablemanners' 2nd revert of the 29th–30th, and that's it. Neither of those made it to a third revert, I'll note. So I'm not convinced a 24-hour 1RR would have a preventative effect. If there's an appropriate rememdy, I think it would be either a 72-hour 1RR or a BRD requirement, but I'm undecided on that "if". -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:09, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If a "refocus attention to discussions on the talk page" type sanction is needed, then I second Tamzin's BRD suggestion. firefly ( t · c ) 12:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
72-hour 1RR and a BRD requirement should not be overly onerous and may have a salutary effect on discussion and consensus building. The net result should be to make for a more collaborative work environment.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:28, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Been thinking about this. @Deepfriedokra: I'd rather not us have two of the most severe page sanctions we can impose, on the same page. Could we perhaps do one now, with a note that any admin should feel free to impose the other unilaterally? I'd lean toward 72h 1RR now, BRD later. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 21:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would go with the 1RR over the BRD -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 23:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have a jaded view regarding topics like this. I would be happy to support a 72-hour 1RR and a BRD requirement as an experiment but essentially, like many other topics, the page will be edited by those seeking to promote opposing views regarding good and evil and for the dedicated editor, restrictions are just a nuisance to be worked around with tag teaming etc. What does "BRD" mean here? It sounds like an indefinite 1RR that applies to everyone, not just the person who did the first revert. I had to remind myself what would be involved in restrictions: see page restrictions. Johnuniq (talk) 02:21, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Tamzin: Sounds good. make it so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepfriedokra (talk • contribs) 10:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that 1RR per 72 hours is a better initial sanction than BRD. Effectively, try the simpler approach first to see if that works. If it's gamed, admins can then either look to change it to BRD or individual sanctions. I'd suggest that, because of that, it would be prudent to allow any admin to modify the 1RR to BRD without requiring a consensus to do so. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:04, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Clean Copy

Clean Copy blocked 1 month for blatant topic ban violations. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:04, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Clean Copy

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:22, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Clean Copy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBPS

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[17] 4 October 2022—speaking of Anthroposophy, which he is banned from.
[18] 15 September 2022—editing an article about Steiner's book, which he is banned from.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

[19] 18 March 2022, blocked 48 hours for breaching his topic ban.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Topic banned from Steiner and Anthroposophy, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive301#Clean Copy

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[20] 5 October 2022

Discussion concerning Clean Copy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Clean Copy

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Clean Copy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Clean Copy, while I'll give a brief period to await a statement from you, these appear to be relatively straightforward violations of your topic ban. If you would care to provide an explanation, now would be the time. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 12:08, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As Clean Copy has already been blocked once for violating the topic ban and these are clear and unambiguous violations, I am inclined to block for a month in this case. Unless any other uninvolved admin shortly objects, I intend to close as such. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 22:28, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kheo17

Kheo17 and Dallavid are warned for edit warring, and advised to use resources like the reliable sources noticeboard rather than reverts to help resolve disputes over source reliability in the future. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Kheo17

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Dallavid (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Kheo17 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAA2

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable
5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable
5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable
5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable
5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable
5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable
5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable
5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable
5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable
5 October 2022 restored "Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan" citation after being told why it's unreliable

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict by me before continuing to restore the edits, see the system log linked to above.
Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 6 April 2021 by Rosguill (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Kheo17 continued to use the source Qərbi Azərbaycanın türk mənşəli toponimləri ("Toponyms of Turkic origin of Western Azerbaijan") after being warned of it's unreliability. The "Western Azerbaijan" in the title is actually referring to Armenia, and is an Azerbaijani irredentism source that is explaining how the names of every Armenian city and town are actually of Turkic/Azerbaijani origin. The book's author, Ibrahim Bayramov, co-wrote another book about how all of Armenia is Azerbaijan's rightful territory.

I explained to Kheo17 on his talk page why this source is unreliable, but he continued to restore it on several Armenian town articles regardless. I'm shocked that an editor who has been editing Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles for over a decade would not understand why a source claiming all of Armenia belongs to Azerbaijan is not acceptable. --Dallavid (talk) 22:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rosguill My apologies, I had misread that sample example amid the multiple other examples close to each other, and mistakenly read it as "Previously given a discretionary sanction alert for conduct in the area of conflict" because the "Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict..." and "Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict..." examples were close to it. --Dallavid (talk) 15:14, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [21]

Discussion concerning Kheo17

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Kheo17

The accusation by Dallavid is baseless. An irredentist title does not make the information in the publication automatically biased or unreliable. The paper uses tens of reliable references from Armenian, Azerbaijani, Russian and European sources. For every statistical information, it provides a reference right after the statement. Using the same logic, all the reliable sources with "Western Armenia" in the title should be removed from Wikipedia?

Unlike Dallavid argues, the source does not try to claim any territory or prove that every Armenian settlement was only inhabited by Azerbaijanis. It is just a research paper on the Turkic origin of some of the settlement names in current Armenia at certain period in time.

Second of all, I expanded articles and created content using two sources: Korkotyan (1932) - an Armenian author and Bayramov (2002) - an Azerbaijani author. The demographic data from 1831 to 1931 was only sourced from Kokotyan (1932). However, Dallavid kept reverting all of my content independent of what source I used. It seems Dallavid is more dissatisfied with what my sources say, rather than their reliability. Thank you--KHE'O (talk) 23:37, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (Abrvagl)

This appears to be a content dispute case that almost escalated into an edit warring when both users demonstrated a lack of ability to handle the matter wisely. User Dallavid made the correct decision by initiating the conversation on the user Kheo17's talk page. However, I feel that the discussion, which began with a DS notice and was written in a demanding tone was not a good start and generated a hostile perception. Then user Dallavid did not wait for the reply and reverted 23 edits of the user Kheo17 on the 23 articles within 8 minutes of initiating a conversation, which I think also fosters a battlefield environment rather than fostering healthy discussion. Furthermore, I reviewed the all of the 23 reverts, and it looks that user Dallavid has never contributed to any of those articles, which, in my opinion, may make other user feel hounded.

On the other hand, instead of attempting to reinstate some of his edits, user Kheo17 could have attempted to comprehend Dallavid's concerns, continued the discussion in order to achieve an agreement, and maybe taken the source to the RSN or to some of the dispute resolution boards. I am not an administrator, and I believe administrators will know more than I, but I see nothing but two people arguing about the content, who need to learn to manage things wisely in order to maintain healthy atmosphere. A b r v a g l^(PingMe) 15:31, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Kheo17

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Dallavid, I'm afraid you've misread or misrepresented my interaction with Kheo17: I gave them a standard DS alert, not a sanction. If you're making a report here, you should understand the difference between those things. I don't see any record of a logged sanction against Kheo17 at WP:AELOG. I would suggest that you strike this element of your report accordingly. I have not otherwise investigated this report. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 15:01, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Both editors here have well illustrated the point that it takes two to make an edit war, so if either of you gets a break from the area, then you both do. However, as the edit war seems to have subsided, I would give both editors a warning that, if the reliability of a source in question, that should be resolved with a reliable sources noticeboard inquiry, not the revert button. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:27, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

USaamo

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning USaamo

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Aman.kumar.goel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:31, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: USaamo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it: "Topic ban from wars between India and Pakistan".[22]

30 September: Violates the topic ban by removing content about "sub-nationalities of Pakistan, with Bengalis seceding from Pakistan after the Bangladesh Liberation War in 1971", the same page (Bangladesh Liberation War) about which he was warned back in 2020 for topic ban violation.[23]
6 October: Same as above.

Apart from 2 of these diffs, he has also violated his topic ban on August 2020,[24] and also on May 2022.[25] Both times he was clarified that the topic ban is broadly construed.

I hadn't reported either violation, only asked him to back off, but both times he was not understanding how he is violating the topic ban.

When he violated it last week, I reported at User talk:EdJohnston#Continued topic ban violation by USaamo, where he again failed to accept the topic ban violation. WP:IDHT again.

Few weeks ago, I already provided my comment just above at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Statement_by_Aman.kumar.goel that why USaamo needs a broader topic ban himself, given his long-term inability to edit in this area. These recent topic ban violations just prove it further. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 03:31, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Topic ban from "Topic ban from wars between India and Pakistan" in July 2020.[26]

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts): See his comments just above at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Bookku

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

@RegentsPark: A topic ban violation is a topic ban violation. Why a warning? This is USaamo's 4th topic ban violation since he has been topic banned. He deliberately violated the topic ban on 6th October even after being told about it. You can take a look at his response here. He is still not accepting his topic ban violation and assuming bad faith with his WP:BATTLEy response. I still recommend extending topic ban or a block for violation at minimum. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 17:59, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [27]

Discussion concerning USaamo

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by USaamo

A useless report and yet another attempt to drag me to AE to frustrate me out. I suggest AE should have a preliminary scrutiny for reports to be formally accepted for proceedings here. It will not only save their time but will also protect users from being dragged into baseless and frivolous reports.
AKG already filed a complaint against me with the enforcing admin EdJohnston who viewed in there that I assume this is a political issue and not military issue. [28] It should have been over for him after this clarification but he still chooses to edit war with me and went on to revert me and that too with a misleading summary.[29] I didn't want edit war so I haven't reverted him back rather alerted admin [30] and waited for a couple of days for his response and since no further response came so I assumed his previous reply to be his view and went ahead with reverting AKG which he at once reverted back and started edit warring. [31] The content I removed was totally undue POV pushing based on original research. As to whether topic ban applies to it or not, I sought clarification from admin which he actually did and I very much intend to abide by my topic ban. For previous allegations of violation, I've already replied in an above report to AKG where he showed up and my answer is still the same to that extent. [32]
His another undue addition of similar pattern to 2022 Pakistan floods was also reverted by me and subsequent edit warring by him and other relatively new accounts to add it back was also reverted by other editors. [33] [34]
I requested a warning for these shenanigans by AKG and behaviour suggesting Wikihounding me and up with a battleground mentality but now it seems like he's so desperate to get me topic banned from ARBIPA and has dragged me uselessly to here, so I ask for proper action against him for this behaviour which doesn't belong here. USaamo ^(t@lk) 17:51, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde

I recommend not expanding this to "pages that mention an India-Pakistan war"; that's a recipe for wikilawyering, and giving opponents a chance to play Gotcha. Is there a reason to prevent Usaamo from editing Henry Kissinger? If Usaamo is skirting the edge of the ban, I recommend broadening to an Indo-Pakistani conflict TBAN, or enforcing the ban with escalating blocks. If there's confusion about the edges of a TBAN, Usaamo ought to be aware that asking is better than assuming the TBAN doesn't apply. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:20, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by KoA

Vanamonde, I was curious to dig a little after seeing your comments, and your thoughts would directly contradict the topic ban. Here was EdJohnston's close After a discussion at the user's talk page I am proceeding with an indefinite topic ban of USaamo from all wars between India and Pakistan. This ban includes any page anywhere in Wikipedia including talk pages and noticeboards.[35]

That's not to comment on the merits of this request at all, but I am wary of DS sanctions being undermined by those claiming the DS are being weaponized, playing gotcha, etc. when the broadly construed boundaries of those sanctions were already laid out. This topic ban was pretty clear as day, and broadly construed sanctions like that are done for a reason. If someone is pushing the boundaries, that is on the topic banned person regardless of if they are being WP:HOUNDed or not. KoA (talk) 18:38, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning USaamo

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

@Aman.kumar.goel: I haven't looked at the earlier diffs (probably stale) but the two diffs you've provided seem like a stretch re the topic ban. Yes, there is a reference to a war but the context is not war related. Regardless, USaamo, you need to be careful because "broadly construed" is a very wide net and is subjective in interpretation. I suggest closing this with a warning to be more careful. --RegentsPark (comment) 16:27, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Bangladesh Liberation War is in scope for the topic ban, although the conflict was mainly between Pakistan and what's now Bangladesh the war saw extensive Indian intervention against Pakistan in the closing stages, and judging from our article the Indians basically won the war by overwhelming the Pakistani forces in Bangladesh. The edits in question removed content which mentioned the war in passing and doesn't deal with any aspect of the Indian intervention. Also one of them took place after this edit from the admin who imposed the sanction. I suspect EdJohnston might have missed the fact that the edits related to the Bangladesh Liberation War but USaamo might not have realised that. I suggest a warning to stay away from that topic. Hut 8.5 18:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing that USaamo's edits have been causing concern since at least 2020 I am not optimistic that a reminder or warning will be sufficient. My impression is that USaamo is willing to follow very precise rules. So I would modify my previous topic ban from wars between India and Pakistan by adding a ban from all articles that mention any wars between India and Pakistan. This would exclude him from editing the Two-nation theory. EdJohnston (talk) 16:41, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the light of User:Swarm's observation below about USaamo's behavior at 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault, I propose that User:USaamo be banned from all topics covered by WP:ARBIPA. As Swarm observes, "There is both history and a clear pattern of current disruption in AE topic areas". USaamo's responses to this AE complaint do not suggest he is mellowing out or becoming more interested in achieving consensus with others. EdJohnston (talk) 01:30, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's necessary, EdJohnston. There is already a standard explained at WP:TBAN that explains how TBANS are apply in situations where an article is not inherently about the subject but covers or mentions the subject in a lesser way. However that is not even the case here, so I'm not sure why we're so hung up on it. The violation is unambiguous; the editor is directly removing a mention of a war fought between India and Pakistan from the article. It is not a case of them simply editing an article that happens to mention such a war. I think most of the time maybe we would factor in that this is a minor violation on a tangentially-related article and cut someone a break, but I reviewed this user's conduct at 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault earlier today in response to an AN3 report and I got the impression that they are completely out of control. They were basically trying to forcibly reframe the article to state, as fact, in Wikipedia's voice, that the attack was staged by the victim. They edit warred over this in spite of a unanimous and specifically articulated local consensus objecting to the change based on verifiability, synth and RS grounds. They outright falsely claimed that they were enforcing a formal consensus and that they were not to be reverted without consensus, and continued to do so even after a warning. They were also edit warring over at Pakistan quite disruptively as well. I blocked them for disruptive editing before even seeing this report. There is both history and a clear pattern of current disruption in AE topic areas. This should be actioned. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 21:27, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 335: / Line 335: @@
 ==Kheo17==
+{{hat|{{u|Kheo17}} and {{u|Dallavid}} are warned for edit warring, and advised to use resources like the [[WP:RSN|reliable sources noticeboard]] rather than reverts to help resolve disputes over source reliability in the future. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 21:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC) }}
 <small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>
@@ Line 397: / Line 398: @@
 *{{u|Dallavid}}, I'm afraid you've misread or misrepresented my interaction with Kheo17: I gave them a standard DS ''alert'', not a sanction. If you're making a report here, you should understand the difference between those things. I don't see any record of a logged sanction against Kheo17 at [[WP:AELOG]]. I would suggest that you strike this element of your report accordingly. I have not otherwise investigated this report. <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 15:01, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 *Both editors here have well illustrated the point that it takes two to make an edit war, so if either of you gets a break from the area, then you both do. However, as the edit war seems to have subsided, I would give both editors a warning that, if the reliability of a source in question, that should be resolved with a [[WP:RSN|reliable sources noticeboard]] inquiry, not the revert button. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 19:27, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
+{{hab}}
 ==USaamo==

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