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13:13, 4 June 2020: EEng (talk | contribs) triggered filter 1,030, performing the action "edit" on Talk:Killing of George Floyd/Archive 3. Actions taken: none; Filter description: Adding URLs with tracking parameters (examine | diff)

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Per the closing of the Move discussion, I have posted a Category Move discussion for [[:Category:Death of George Floyd]]. Others who contributed to the Move discussion (on both sides) may wish to contribute to the category discussion. The discussion is [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_June_2#Category:Death_of_George_Floyd|here]].--[[User:Mike Selinker|Mike Selinker]] ([[User talk:Mike Selinker|talk]]) 12:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Per the closing of the Move discussion, I have posted a Category Move discussion for [[:Category:Death of George Floyd]]. Others who contributed to the Move discussion (on both sides) may wish to contribute to the category discussion. The discussion is [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_June_2#Category:Death_of_George_Floyd|here]].--[[User:Mike Selinker|Mike Selinker]] ([[User talk:Mike Selinker|talk]]) 12:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)


== Hand In Pocket -- Not ==

Current content: "Chauvin is seen on video applying pressure with his knee to Floyd's neck while his hand is in his pocket"

Chauvin's left hand is wearing a black glove, and his pants are also black. It may appear to many that his hand is in a pocket. But, on close watching of the entire raw video from bystander smartphone (in the first few seconds, for example)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMN35n4UVSA&bpctr=1591106067 [Video<nowiki>]</nowiki>], it is clear to me that Chauvin's left hand is in a fist and resting on his upper thigh. I have heard several commentaries that cite the hand in pocket while lamenting an apparent casual demeanor of this officer.

This inaccuracy should be corrected. [[User:Clutterslave|Clutterslave]] ([[User talk:Clutterslave|talk]]) 14:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

:{{fixed}}. I have added this fact to the article, with a citation to the video. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 14:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

== How is the new autopsy independent when the pathologists were hired by the deceased relatives? ==

First it says "On May 30, Floyd's family's legal team confirmed that they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson to conduct an autopsy.", and then "On May 31, the independent autopsy was conducted.". How is the autopsy independent? By that logic, the first autopsy was also independent. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Anetherion|contribs]]) 10:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Dr. Wlilson is the director of autopsy and forensic services at the University of Michigan Medical School. That's independent. The county medical examiner is not independent as they work with the police. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 10:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

::"they had hired" as in they were paid to do that. How can you say that is independent? For it to be truly independent, it would have to be performed and paid for by a third party, unrelated to the whole ordeal. [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion|talk]]) 10:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::I would agree, neither are independent.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::Independent is used in the sources and has been used in such cases as long as I can remember. The Michigan Medical School is independent, unless it can be shown that they are paid to lie. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
::::"they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson", they had hired them personally, how is their workplace relevant? 1.) "sources" are not always correct, 2.) it being that way "for as long as you can remember" still does not mean it is the right way. Like I wrote above, unless it is conducted and paid for by a third party, it is NOT independent. [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion|talk]]) 11:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::We go by sourcing, not by personal opinion of editors. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 11:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

:Its all rather academic as the second "official" autopsy has called homicide as well.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:I do agree that "independent" is probably the wrong word for it. By definition, the autopsy comes from an interested party. A "private autopsy" was used by the BBC makes more sense, imho. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 12:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
::Wikipedia goes by what the majority of sources call it. Try to understand that when the media speaks of an independent autopsy, they just mean a private autopsy independent of the official autopsy conducted by the jurisdiction's coroner, and not independent of an interested party who is paying for it. If there's a concern that this Wikipedia article is misleading the reader, we can ameliorate that by using expanded language like "an independent autopsy paid for by Floyd's family," or even "an independent private autopsy" with cites to both descriptions from the media. The only other thing I would note here is that under state law, the county medical examiner is a "neutral and independent office and is separate and distinct from any prosecutorial authority or law enforcement agency," so we wouldn't say that they aren't independent because they "work with the police," but calling the official autopsy "independent" in the article would probably just cause confusion. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::If the sourcing says "independent", then that's what the article should say. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 12:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::The law may state that medical examiners must be “neutral and independent”; but there have been scandals related to medical examiner results when police are involved. That’s one reason some people pay for independent autopsies. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 13:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
::::Sure, there have been scandals in the past, this is why legislatures have added those laws to put ethics restrictions in place. My only point there was that we can't imply here that the county medical examiner "works with the police." [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
::Update: I just noticed that someone swapped out the word "independent" with "private" 30 minutes ago, so I've added "independent" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_George_Floyd&type=revision&diff=960346944&oldid=960346782 back to the lead], such that it reads "An independent private autopsy." At this point, I think it would be preferable to just include both words rather than editors pushing to have their preferred word used while trying to exclude the other. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::Private is an odd word since the results are public and the autopsy was performed by a public school. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 13:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
::::LOL, which in the UK mean a private school. But it is off as whilst it was privately funded it was not "private".[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::What we've got going on here is a conflation of terms. Whether or not a school is public or private is a different concept (in use of terms) in relation to whether an autopsy was an official autopsy (conducted by the authorities) versus a private autopsy (conducted by anyone else). [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
::::Private has many different senses; we shouldn't conflate them. To clarify the claim "the autopsy was performed by a public school". Are we sure the autopsy was performed by the University of Michigan? The media reports seem to suggest that Dr Baden and Dr Wilson were hired by Floyd's family's attorneys. Do we know it was done in the official capacity as faculty members of University of Michigan? Or that it was done pro bono (see: "hire" in numerous news outlets). For example, I might hire a moonlighting police officer to bodyguard me; it would make little sense to claim that my bodyguarding needs are met by a "public body". [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 14:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, as others have said, lets go with what RS say, and not our own suppositions.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

== George Floyd History ==

Why is there nothing in the GEORGE FLOYD bio section of this article about his past criminal history? He was convicted of multiple things, most notably ARMED ROBBERY which is pretty significant.
Why is he presented in an incomplete manner.
All across Wikipedia in the personal section OF ANYONE i HAVE EVEN LOOKED UP THERE IS FULL DISCLOSURE, ESPECIALLY ABOUT ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH BREAKING THE LAW.
I think that there is deliberate omission. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:CiaSmi64|CiaSmi64]] ([[User talk:CiaSmi64#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CiaSmi64|contribs]]) 18:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I'm sorry, but the reason that it's omitted is because this is about the ''death'' of George Floyd, not ''about'' George Floyd. Thanks, <span style="font-family:Avenir">[[User:Thanoscar21|'''Thanoscar21''']]<sub>[[User talk:Thanoscar21|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Thanoscar21|contribs]]</sub></span> 18:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:::Then why is there information about his athletic accomplishments? [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 18:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500
::::There is an RfC about it above [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Death_of_George_Floyd#RFC_on_Floyd's_criminal_past]. And of course good RS specifically ''about his death'', such as [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-who-was-he-his-friends-words this article in Guardian] and many others, do mention this episode. ''We should significantly expand his biography section and include this info''. As you noted, there is no logic to selectively hide any important biographic information. We just say what RS say ''on this subject''. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 18:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::I'll just add that BBC has also acknowledged this aspect of Floyd's past (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936). [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 19:03, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500
::::::Someone will probably remove it. I would wait until the closing of the RfC. But just to clarify, according to your BBC source,
::::::{{Quotation2|His life then took a different turn, with a string of arrests for theft and drug possession culminating in an armed robbery charge in 2007, for which he was sentenced to five years in prison. He became involved in his local ministry, Resurrection Houston, after his release and was intent on making changes in himself and his neighbourhood, says Mr Lillard. "While he was embracing his own life change, he was looking around at his community" ...}}
::::::This is an important info to include if anyone wants to understand what kind of person he was. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::::{{u|My very best wishes}}, is what kind of person he was important to understanding this incident? [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 19:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::::::::Well, this is all in the BBC source. One should just read it further: ''"A video of Floyd decrying gun violence, believed to be filmed in 2017, has circulated on social media, in which he implored young people to "come home". His family told the Houston Chronicle he moved to Minnesota in 2018 after being encouraged by friends through a Christian work programme.'' Christopher Harris, a friend and former classmate, told US media Mr Floyd "was looking to start over fresh, a new beginning". "He was happy with the change he was making," he added.''
::::::::So, basically, this is someone who was capable to understand his mistakes and make life better for himself and others. This is highly commendable. But without telling that he made mistakes, there is no real person, there is no character. That's why journalists from Guardian, BBC, and other sources described it. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::Yes, commendable, but the question I think was "how is that relevant with regards to his death?" Did any of that contribute to his death? Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 14:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

=="Chauvin put his full body weight on Floyd's neck"==
{{ping|Shadybabs}} You've added "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=960178183&oldid=960176432 Chauvin put his full body weight onto Floyd's neck]" directly into the lead, based on a comment in a local [[City Pages]] article, not stated in any mainstream reliable sources. That's materially misleading and would have only been possible if Chauvin had knelt with both of his knees on Floyd's neck (to put his full body weight on it). As seen in the video he has one knee on the pavement and one knee on Floyd; you have to sort out sources for NPOV, verfiability, and in this case, WP:WEIGHT (no pun intended; this is not funny stuff). Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 14:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:I agree. I've tagged it. If someone can't produce better sources, it will be removed. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 15:06, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:While I strongly believe that the article should address all aspects of the police misconduct, it should do so accurately, and should not use other wiki pages as sources. Either cite an external source and reword or remove. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 15:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:It would also have been possible if he had managed to balance himself on only one knee and having his other leg off the ground, but that obviously didn't happen either. A physical impossibility definitely needs good sources. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 16:07, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::Thanks for tagging. Circling back just now, I see another editor has conformed the text to a better source [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=960197776&oldid=960197363 as seen here], so the problem is resolved. I was initially drawn to this issue because the original editor added the unsourced content "''Chauvin would continue to forcefully grind his bodyweight directly onto Floyd's neck as he struggled''" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=959817905&oldid=959817111 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=959821531 here] two days ago. Editors should not be making stuff up like that, especially with people's perceptions inflamed right now. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]])

:::The second autopsy is saying asphyxiation.[https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html] ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 19:42, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

:In general, that's not exactly true. You could put 90 percent of your weight on one knee, with the other knee positioned just for balance. But sourcing is needed. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 11:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

::90% is not "full body weight", but the thrust here is that an editor was seeking to characterize the event from their POV, then looking for a source to fit that POV. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::Yes. But if you're only using the second knee for balance, it could be well above 50 percent. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 14:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

== Add Chauvin maces witness (on video) ==

{{edit semi-protected|Killing of George Floyd|answered=yes}}
Since links to FB video are now added in article, can we add the macing incident to Arrest and Death/Timeline ? At 4:32 in video, "Chauvin grabs a canister from his belt and sprays towards a witness approaching Floyd, and another witness says 'He just got maced'. Chauvin later returns canister to belt.(at 4:55) [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 14:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

:{{not done}} The link in question is to the primary source without commentary and accompanies the text talking about the primary source being created. What you want is [[WP:OR|original research]], i.e. using the same primary source to add a fact ("witness got maced by Chauvin") which the source does not support (you cannot actually see that). As such, we need a [[WP:RS|reliable]] [[WP:PSTS|secondary source]] that actually says so. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 14:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Test [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 15:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

But the source supports these facts. The actions are audible and visible: Chauvin unclips canister from belt, moves hand towards sidewalk, audio sound of spraying noise commences, Chauvin continues to hold canister while kneeing Floyd's neck, then puts canister back on belt. Why would a secondary source be necessary? [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 15:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:If so then why have no RS noticed and commented on it?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Very good question. I wonder about it as well. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:I think that ends this, as that is virtually an admission this is just your interpretation.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Maybe... the macing incident can be interpreted by legal professionals as evidence of an intent to kill, and creates a possible liability issue for a published secondary source... [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Not an admission to an interpretation. Sorry. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

:See "At one point Chauvin reached for his mace to threaten the bystanders while continuing to kneel on the man."[https://unicornriot.ninja/2020/minneapolis-police-murder-handcuffed-man-with-neck-kneel/] [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 16:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
::Not sure that is an RS, certainly not for a [[wp:blp]].[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::[[Unicorn Riot]] is definitely not an RS [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

See "Chauvin keeps his knee pressed into Floyd’s neck and Floyd stops talking. About four minutes into the video, Floyd becomes unresponsive. Bystanders approach Chauvin and the officer draws something, causing one of the people off-camera to say, “He’s got mace.”"[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/26/george-floyd-minneapolis-police-officers-fired-after-public-backlash/5263193002/] [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 16:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:That would be barley enough to say "and one person said he had drawn a mace can", in no way does it support "Chauvin maces witness" or even" Chauvin drew a maces can".[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
::I made [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_George_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=960381183 this change]. There could be more sources that discuss it. [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 17:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:::I will not revert it, even thought I said it is barely enough to pass muster (see [[wp:unue]]). I would suggest finding a few more sources before someone else does.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== What was Chauvin's endgame? ==
{{atopy
| status =
| result = [[WP:NOTFORUM]] for speculation. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 12:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
}}



Perhaps editors familiar with law enforcement can answer this question. Had Floyd not expired, when would Chauvin have released his knee from Floyd? Was he waiting for backup, or Floyd to tap out, or when he had established his "superiority"? What typically happens in such a situation when death is not the outcome? Thanks, [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 10:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
:We are not a general forum to discuss this topic.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
::What is meant by {{tq|"tap out"}}? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:14, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
:::Submission. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 11:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
::::Yes, but "submission" was present. Submission was expressed verbally by George Floyd. And submission prevails when handcuffed behind one's back, prone, face down, surrounded by police officers. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

::::[https://www.ctinsider.com/local/greenwichtime/article/The-Mother-Lode-As-he-lay-dying-George-Floyd-15315226.php Floyd called out to the police, addressing Chauvin with “Sir” and “Please officer, I can’t breathe.” He called out to the crowd of people watching: “They gon’ kill me.” But there was one call that will not stop echoing in my head, and that’s the call to his mother. “I can’t move … mama … mama … I can’t.”] This constitutes verbal "submission". [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::Yes, we know all that. My question is, had the ambulance not been called and had he not died, how might the situation have been resolved? [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 11:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
::::::{{tq|"how might the situation have been resolved?"}} I don't know. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will weigh in. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
:::::::Let's not speculate. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:59, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
::::::::I thought the question would depend on the consequences of suspicion of attempted use of counterfeit currency, or something like that. That would be a legal question. I happen to be ignorant of the topic. Would arrest ensue? Would a court appearance be required? Etc. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 12:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Requested move 27 May 2020 ==
{{rm top|'''moved'''. I'm choosing to expedite this move rather than wait the full 7 days due to sizable interest and participation. I note that many of those opposing the move did so ''before'' the Hennepin County Medical Examiner had concluded that the death was a homicide. As such and in light of this key argument, I am deeming there being sufficient consensus for moving the title. It is important to note that this assessment on my part was based on the strength of the arguments, not the aggregate tally. It is also important to mention that this expedited close was not a [[WP:SNOW]] close. While this was a lively debate, I don't think prolonging it is likely to change the outcome or would be a benefit for the project. I thank the overwhelming majority of participants for their well-thought-out arguments as well as for their civil disposition. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 11:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
:It's been suggested that I expand on my evaluation of the arguments advanced in this discussion. With respect to [[WP:COMMONNAME]], the mention by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] has been mixed, so that argument was not really weighed one way or the other in my evaluation. With respect to [[WP:BLPCRIME]], as one participant who has changed their preference from oppose to support has noted: killing is not necessarily a crime. The fact is that many participants who opposed asked to wait for the ME report, which, as mentioned, has since deemed the death to be a homicide. The arguments advanced in the discussion whose strength was given most weight in this close neither concluded that this homicide was a ''murder'' nor that it was a ''justifiable homicide.'' It was rather overwhelmingly agreed that that is a matter for the courts to decide. Those arguments only posited that, for now, the the title should reflect the official finding by the ME. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 13:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)}}


[[:Death of George Floyd]] → {{no redirect|Killing of George Floyd}} – While murder isn't appropriate for an ongoing investigation, "killing" seems an appropriate description of events, and is backed up by a reliable source.<ref>{{Cite news|last=Goyette|first=Jared|date=2020-05-27|title=Hundreds demand justice in Minneapolis after police killing of George Floyd|language=en-GB|work=The Guardian|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/george-floyd-killing-minneapolis-protest-police|access-date=2020-05-27|issn=0261-3077}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news|last=Sabur|first=Rozina|date=2020-05-26|title=George Floyd: Protests erupt in Minneapolis after death of black man pinned down by white police officer|language=en-GB|work=The Telegraph|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/26/fbi-investigate-death-black-man-pinned-white-police-officer/|access-date=2020-05-27|issn=0307-1235}}</ref> On the other hand, other sources call it a "death".<ref>{{Cite news|date=2020-05-27|title=Death of US black man in custody sparks clashes|language=en-GB|work=BBC News|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097|access-date=2020-05-27}}</ref> As such, I'm <s>'''neutral'''</s> myself, but think that a discussion is appropriate.
{{reftalk}}
– [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
:: Pinging participants in "murder" section - {{ping|Jorge1777|Starship.paint|AzureCitizen|Ergo Sum}}. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

{{cot|Discussion collapsed to aid readability of page}}
===Survey===
====First convenience section====
* '''Oppose''' - wait for the autopsy results so that we know whether or not he was killed. [[User:Jim Michael|Jim Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim Michael|talk]]) 19:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
* <s>'''Wait for autopsy''' per above.</s> [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 20:16, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
** <s>'''Oppose''' Due to the preliminary autopsy finding that strangulation and asphyxiation were not the cause of death, I think we must let a jury decide whether this was a killing or not. Less would be a plain BLP violation against the accused at this time. I am open to changing this if more information comes available.</s> [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) Struck due to both reports terming this a homicide. 05:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
** '''Comment''' Because of the incredibly bad treatment of Floyd I am genuinely sorry to have to make this [[WP:BLP]] (particularly [[WP:BLPCRIME]] "presumed innocent") and [[WP:RS]], [[WP:NPOV]] ([[WP:DUE]]) policy argument, but I need to make another point.
*:As of 22:29, 30 May 2020 (you may need to click on "tools" on Google to see the tally):
*:*Google news search results in title over past 24 hours for "killing of george floyd": [https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22killing+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 175] (and many of these refer to protests, speaking to the intent of the protests)
*:*Google news search results in title over past 24 hours for "death of george floyd": [https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22death+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 1410]
*:We go by reliable sources most of all, and here it is clear the reliable sources are cautiously calling this a death. Many of the arguments below are based on emotion and [[WP:OR]] of the video. Again I am truly sorry to have to take the position. I do not want to take it. I am forced to take this position by policy. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 22:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*:*I understand why we go by reliable sources. But if common sense tells us that it is a killing, it is a killing no matter what reliable sources are calling it. We wouldn't say the sky is purple just because reliable sources say so. I hope this isn't inappropriate, but I would cautiously say [[WP:IAR]] supports my point. This is an encyclopedia, but it also does not simply repeat what sources say with no further examination. I believe if common sense leads us to contradict what sources are saying, that is okay. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 01:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*::{{u|DIYeditor}}, I don't mean to badger, but CNN is reporting that the independent autopsy requested by Mr Floyd's family has found that the death was a homicide.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref>
*::[[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 20:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*::{{u|DIYeditor}}, since your main objection to the move is now void, with the newly published independent autopsy report, I hope you sincerely consider changing your vote. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*:::{{u|Bubka42}} and {{u|Bellezzasolo}}, my tally of the overwhelming use of "death" in Google news articles still stands as of now, please refer to the links I gave above. I will consider again whether we should simply call a spade a spade in this case and go with "killing" but I have trouble seeing how we can ignore the cautious phrasing of the overwhelming majority of news articles on this topic (assuming my test for that is valid). [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 04:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*:::'''Explain striking !vote''': I will go ahead and stick to what I originally said which was wait for autopsy. I have reservations about deviating from the phrasing used in most reliable sources, but {{u|Darouet}} has conflicting information, and most of all I don't want to be "that guy" who opposed calling a killing a killing. Killing someone isn't in and of itself a crime so we are not accusing anyone of having committed a crime. Two autopsies say homicide. So I am leaving this as a "comment" with no !vote. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 06:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Consistency, Articles about similar events are called death not murder or killing. Unless convicted or murder no need to change,[[User:Life200BC|Life200BC]] ([[User talk:Life200BC|talk]]) 20:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
*: This is demonstrably untrue. [[:Category:Deaths by person in the United States]] contains 212 articles with titles referring to "murder", another two referring to "killing" and a further 31 referring to "shooting" and 11 to "assassination" (which obviously aren't alleged in this case), while only 81 (including this one) refer to "death", of which many of the deaths are not killings of any sort. It is fair to question whether the burden of proof that this death was a killing has yet been met to [[WP:BLP]] standards but as soon as the cause of death is established to such standards it is absolutely consistent to refer to it as a killing in the title, if not specifying the type of killing. [[User:Bigbluefish|Bigbluefish]] ([[User talk:Bigbluefish|talk]]) 17:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now'''. Per DIYeditor, definitively describing this as a "killing" would be premature until the medical examiner/coroner's report says so. [[User:Ergo Sum|'''<span style="color:#0645AD">Ergo Sum</span>''']] 21:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
*''' Oppose '''- Death is the most neutral language, and should be used until more information is available. --[[User:Jax 0677|Jax 0677]] ([[User talk:Jax 0677|talk]]) 21:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. "Death of" is the most appropriate term, at least for the time being. If the officer is charged or convicted at a future date, we can reassess. Though it certainly seems likely that he died as a result of the officer's actions, we don't technically know what he died from until we get the full autopsy report. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 21:50, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' — "Killing of..." is commonly used by the media [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/27/us/lebron-james-george-floyd-spt-trnd/index.html][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/george-floyd-killing-minneapolis-protest-police][https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-pictures/minneapolis-george-floyd-protest-police-killing-photos-1005678/]. This isn't a proposal to rename the article to "Murder of..." and there's no controversy about why he died in a general sense, even before a pathology report is released. For this reason the name change doesn't depend on whether an officer has been charged with murder or what the specific physiological cause of death was: you can die in many ways when someone is kneeling on your neck. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 22:05, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
::After some time has passed, I find that the case for moving is stronger than before:
::'''[[WP:RS]]''' — The [[LexisNexis|NexisUni]] database reports over 10,000 newspaper articles in the last week describing George Floyd as having been killed (accounting for duplicates). High quality sources like the [[BBC]] and the ''[[The New York Times]]'' describe the death as a killing, e.g. BBC: {{tq|Protesters have clashed with police in cities across the US over the '''killing''' of an unarmed African-American man at the hands of officers in Minneapolis}}[https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52857334]; ''NYT'': {{tq|8 Minutes and 46 Seconds: How George Floyd Was '''Killed''' in Police Custody}} [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-investigation.html]. While thousands of sources describe Floyd as having been killed, I can find only two dubious sources arguing he may not have been [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-died-police-restraint-combined-health/][https://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/what-will-investigators-look-for-in-the-death-of-george-floyd-J7t5d8sJDN5wPQH1/].
::'''[[WP:NPOVTITLE]]''' — As mentioned by many editors here, the term "death of..." is a [[WP:WEASEL]] phrase that obscures Floyd's killing, and by implying the possibility of natural death is non-neutral. As pointed out below, in the [[Oxford English Dictionary|English language]] "killing" does not imply intent to kill and is not equivalent to murder: {{tq|"...any means or cause which puts an end to life...}}" The move would therefore result in a more neutral title.
::'''[[WP:NAMINGCRITERIA]]''' In addition to being supported by reliable sources, the title "Killing of George Floyd" meets every one of our naming criteria, including [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]], [[WP:NATURALNESS]] and [[WP:CONCISE]]. "Killing of George Floyd" is linguistically and factually more [[WP:PRECISE]] than "Death of George Floyd," and while more death articles are titled "Death of..", many death articles are titled "Killing of..." (e.g. [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], [[Killing of Naqeebullah Mehsud]], [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]], [[Killing of Peter Fechter]], [[Killing of Heidi Hazell]], etc), and thus this article if moved would be [[WP:CONSISTENT]] with practice here.
::'''[[WP:CONSENSUS]]''' — Recognizing these principles, right now wikipedia editors support a move by a margin of nearly 2:1 (140 in support of a move, compared to 75 opposing, by my tally).
::On the basis of descriptions by reliable sources, neutrality, article naming criteria, and consensus, I still think this page should be moved. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Maintain neutral language. [[User:KidAd|KidAd]] ([[User talk:KidAd|talk]]) 22:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per [[Death of Eric Garner]], a case that is ''extremely'' similar, plus [[WP:BLP]] and neutrality concerns. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 00:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' “Killing of...” is sensationalist. “Death” will suffice per Wikipedia’s neutrality policy. [[User:Beemer69|<span style="color:black">'''sixty'''</span><span style="color:darkred">'''nine'''</span>]] [[User talk:Beemer69|<small><span style='color:darkblue;text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em black'><sup>'''• whaddya want? •'''</sup></span></small>]] 01:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Maintain factual language. "Killing of" is the common language when the individual's death is the direct result of another individual's actions, whereas "Death of" is more common for natural or accidental causes. The individual in question was killed, I don't think there is any doubt about that. "Murder of" would be prejudicial and inappropriate until such time that criminal proceedings begin/conclude.[[User:CanadianWikiUser|&#42;BrandonsLe*]] ([[User talk:CanadianWikiUser|talk]]) 01:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*<s>'''Oppose''' – While I agree with the argument in the case of a fatal shooting, this is too much/too soon for a case such as this. We should at least wait for a finding of homicide by the medical examiner.</s> ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 02:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
**'''Support''' – Whether or not the police officer is guilty of crime, it is clear now that he caused the death, therefore killed George Floyd. "Killing of George Floyd" is <s>not</s> an appropriate title for this article. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*** {{ping|Coffeeandcrumbs}} I think you may have typo'd — your !support and "is not an appropriate title" appear to contradict eachother 😊 — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; please &#123;&#123;[[Template:ping|ping]]&#125;&#125; me in replies)</small></span> 10:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
****Thanks, fixed. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 15:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. "Killing" is defined as [https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/killing an act in which someone is deliberately killed]. At this time, there is no evidence that Chauvin deliberately intended to kill Floyd. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:This is simply NOT true. Killing can literally be either accidental or deliberate. Murder is the specific term that precisely refers to deliberate killing. This is why the term "homicide" is so often used in early reports - because it specifies that a death was caused by another person but makes no statement on whether that death was accidental or premeditated. I support changing the article to "the killing of George Floyd," because his death WAS a homicide, full stop. Whether the killing was murder or not is what is up for debate, not whether he WAS killed. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03|2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03]] ([[User talk:2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03#top|talk]]) 01:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)</small>
*:While I agree with your !vote, that is not a good definition of killing. If you hit someone with a car and they die, you killed them, even without intent. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/killing A simple and better definition]: 1: the act of one that kills. From [[Oxford Dictionary of English]]: an act of causing death, especially deliberately. So maybe in British English it is more considered to mean a deliberate act? ODE only says "especially deliberately" though, not exclusively. OED says only: 1. a. The action of the vb. kill, in various senses. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 02:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' and snow close until after both autospy and any conviction. Despite the video being as close to direct support that the cops actions led to the complications to his death there may be other factors at play that the cops only made it worst but were not the cause. Even if it was determined if the cops were the direct cause of death, then it is a matter of the circumstances of the arrest that may have given reason to do what they did (very unlikely but we are wikipedia and need to stay neutral here and cannot presume guilt). So until these events happen, this must stay at "Death of..." --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 02:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose, for now''' until an autopsy. I'd think it'd be biased to declare it a killing unless the autopsy clears Floyd of any possible underlying conditions, regardless of opinions on the video. [[User:Fernsong|Fernsong]] ([[User talk:Fernsong|talk]]) 04:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - true, the death could be classified as culpable homicide or homicide, depending on the autopsy and the policemen’s motives, but "killing" should not be added unless there is proof that the policemen intended to kill him. [[User:RedBulbBlueBlood9911|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:#00a2ff">RedBulbBlueBlood9911</span>]]&#124;[[User talk:RedBulbBlueBlood9911|'''<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:DarkBlue">Talk</span>''']] 06:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - Death seems more encyclopedic and neutral; killing implies culpability. [[User:Ovinus Real|Ovinus Real]] ([[User talk:Ovinus Real|talk]]) 06:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. There is absolutely no question that he was killed and that there is culpability. Millions of people have witnessed his killing, recorded in detail on video. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 07:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Death implies that it was not caused by another person, while killing is when one person harms another. [[User:Tbrechner|Tbrechner]] ([[User talk:Tbrechner|talk]]) 07:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:"Death" implies nothing but that the person is deceased. There is no evidence I can find that "death" is only used for cases without outside causation. Do you have such evidence? In fact, there is a reason why terms like "natural death" and "suicide" exist to differentiate from just "death". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' for now per WWGB. Even if that definition isn't very good, the fact remains that "killing" carries the connotation of deliberateness. However, as this is an American topic, the American definition of "killing" should be used. As such, if the (significant) majority of RS use the term "killing of George Floyd" I support changing the name in the future. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 08:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
::See my post below: contrary to your assertion, in the English language, murder implies deliberateness, but killing does not. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
:::Killing most certainly implies deliberateness and intent. Until an autopsy verifies the true cause of Floyd's death, we cannot maintain a neutral POV and at the same time insinuate cause, when we do not know the cause. [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 01:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500
::::"Killing" does not imply intent to kill. According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'': {{tq|To put to death; to deprive of life; to slay, slaughter. In early use implying personal agency and the use of a weapon; later, '''extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an accident''', over-work, grief, drink, a disease, '''etc.'''}} -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Darouet}}, killing implies that a crime has taken place and that someone is guilty of committing the crime, whether it is manslaughter or murder, and associating that with a living person without a conviction is against [[WP:BLPCRIME]]. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 21:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::No it doesn't. There are plenty of ways to kill someone without committing a crime: self-defense, war, [[justifiable homicide]]. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 02:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
::::::The issue is not criminality, but intent. If a police officer shoots someone wrongfully, they were using deadly force, which demonstrates an intent to cause death. To the best of my knowledge, the force used against Floyd was not considered deadly force (at least, insofar as it is defined by rules of polce conduct) so it is not our place to prescribe intent to kill. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 12:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
:::See WWGB's comment above. The fact that ''some'' dictionaries define "kill" as implying deliberateness means that "kill" has the connotation of deliberateness. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 12:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Death sounds more neutral. [[User:Infernape612|Infernape612]] ([[User talk:Infernape612|talk]]) 08:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose:''' We are not a jury to decide whether it was a culpable offense (or not) to the point of a homicide. "Death" is by far more neutral for an encyclopedic article.--[[User:Deepak G Goswami|Deepak G Goswami]] ([[User talk:Deepak G Goswami|talk]]) 08:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support:''' The guy was on the floor with a police officer's knee on his neck, telling them "I can't breathe" and "Don't kill me" until he passed out and died. Regardless of their intention, the police officers caused the death of this man - looks like a killing to me. --[[User:Xwejnusgozo|Xwejnusgozo]] ([[User talk:Xwejnusgozo|talk]]) 08:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:"Looks like to me" is not an accepted scientific method of determining causation, especially not for Wikipedia which relies on reliable sources. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*::{{ping|SoWhy}} Dude quit being such a condescending smart-ass. You deliberately ignored his analysis and only used his conclusion as though that was the only thing he said without backing up why he concludes that. He clearly stated REASONS before concluding "Looks like a killing to me". Do you not know how conslunsions work? First you state reasons then you conclude by saying what your analysis shows. [[Special:Contributions/94.175.64.92|94.175.64.92]] ([[User talk:94.175.64.92|talk]]) 20:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::There is nothing condescending about it. Analyzing a primary source and reaching your own conclusion - valid or otherwise! - is what we call [[WP:OR|original research]]. This core policy explicitly states that {{xt|Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation}}. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 21:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*::{{ping|SoWhy}} Regardless of the wording I used, it should be blindingly obvious to everyone who saw the video: the man did not just ''die'', he died as a result of the actions of the police officers, ie. they ''killed'' him. --[[User:Xwejnusgozo|Xwejnusgozo]] ([[User talk:Xwejnusgozo|talk]]) 12:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::Many reliable sources conclude the very same, describing Floyd's death as a "killing." -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*::::{{re|Darouet}} But the vast majority does not, which is also reflected in the article, which at this time contains 3 sources that use the word "killing" but 45(!) sources (if I did count right) that use the word "death". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 06:00, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' In my opinion saying it was a Death violates [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Killing is deffonatly more appropriate and [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 09:16, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per precedent ([[Death of Eric Garner]]) and reasons given above. If and when someone is convicted for causing this death - and reliable sources start using another word(!) - we can reconsider. At this point, none of the sources in the article use "killing" (at least in the title) and most sources I can find go with "Death" (e.g. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/demonstrators-rally-over-death-of-george-floyd-who-died-in-police-custody/2020/05/26/fb67a961-aed3-4173-bdd8-7b230abb105a_video.html] [https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-death-of-george-floyd-in-context] [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/gallery/2020/may/27/protests-in-minneapolis-over-death-of-george-floyd-after-arrest-in-pictures] [https://www.npr.org/2020/05/27/863422803/how-minneapolis-communities-react-to-george-floyds-death?t=1590661206106] [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/us/george-floyd-minneapolis-death.html]). Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:Reaffirming my opposition. Unless the victim was shot (in which case "Shooting of" is used), ''basically all'' comparable articles (see for example the list in {{tlx|Black Lives Matter}}) use "Death of" ''until the perpetrator has been convicted'' (or found guilty but not criminally responsible).{{pb}}Only when there is a conviction the title is or is changed to "Murder of" or "Killing of" (e.g. [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Ilan Halimi]], [[Killing of Tim McLean]], [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shooting_of_Jordan_Edwards&oldid=892563238]).{{pb}}This is imho in line with [[WP:BLPCRIME]] which explicitly says {{xt| For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction. }} Neither an autopsy report nor a 3rd degree murder charge satisfy these requirements. When it comes to BLPs, we should err on the side of caution, even if they are credibly accused of killing another person.{{pb}}And last but not least, Wikipedia is a tertiary source. We should go by the terminology reliable secondary sources use. If one searches GNews for sources that do ''not'' mention "killing", one gets [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+-%22killing%22 ~192 million hits]. Searching for sources that do mention "killing", one gets [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+%22killing%22 ~104 million hits], i.e. only half as many (also considering that some are only using "killing" in quotes). If the usage is apparently 2 to 1 against "Killing" in news sources, we should go with the majority. Even after the autopsy was released, the apparent majority of such sources still refer to it as the "death" of George Floyd (e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52886593 BBC], [https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html CNN], [https://indianexpress.com/article/world/family-autopsy-floyd-asphyxiated-by-sustained-pressure-6438843/ The Indian Express], [https://news.sky.com/story/live-protests-continue-across-us-following-death-of-george-floyd-11998933 Sky News], [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/california-george-floyd-protests.html NYT], [https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-protests-george-floyd-laquan-mcdonald-police-deaths-20200602-rois6ifmpbh2nm4wt5vrhcvyrm-story.html Chicago Tribune], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-floyds-death-was-a-homicide-according-to-two-autopsies/2020/06/01/1d5b313a-a43b-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html WaPo]). {{pb}}Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*{{Strikeout|'''Oppose''' per SoWhy above [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 10:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)}}
:*Now changing to '''Strong Support''' - clear killing now as more details come out, as well as the 3rd degree murder charge [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 19:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' Floyd was brutally murdered in front of a crowd of horrified bystanders as he begged for mercy, resulting in the firing of those four officers, international outrage and violent protests and demonstrations all over Minneapolis. This wasn't some accidental sudden "death", it was a literal ''killing''. [[User:PlanetDeadwing|PlanetDeadwing]] ([[User talk:PlanetDeadwing|talk]]) 10:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:We don't have the autopsy results & no-one's been charged. It would be inappropriate to say at this stage that he was killed, let alone murdered. We don't want to prejudice any criminal proceedings. [[User:Jim Michael|Jim Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim Michael|talk]]) 11:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' While Floyd was definitely killed, Wikipedia precedent is that the title is 'Death of' rather than 'Killing of' or any similar title. While this was a killing, this is a vote purely on precedent. [[User:AlternateHistoryGuy|AlternateHistoryGuy]] ([[User talk:AlternateHistoryGuy|talk]])
<s>*'''Snow Support''' Hundreds of sources are calling it a killing, including [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/27/george-floyd-sister-police-officers-should-be-charged-with-murder in the title]. I see no merit in the precedent argument. An accidental death caused by a choke on someone who wouldn't let themselves be cuffed has no relation to officers killing a cuffed person who on all available videos didn't resist, merely begged for his life & pleaded for his mommy. They mocked him while he was dying. Even the Donald has said justice is going to be served on those guys. Presenting a topic in a way that's considerably less accurate & compassionate than president Trump does is a little disconcerting. He didn't just die, he was killed, current title is almost "fake news". [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 12:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
::Upgrading to Snow support per the murder charge, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:Weight & WP BLP. (BLP per due respect to the victims family, & also as comparing this to an accidental death where the suspect wouldn't let himself be cuffed appears almost borderline defamation to the x cop involved.) [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 19:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC) </s> Per [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSm0Nuqomg&t=55 new evidence] my rationale is no longer entirely correct, so striking vote. [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 09:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Articles like this go through a name change progression as events unfold in due course, i.e., an autopsy is released that establishes the official cause of death, potential arrests are made, and a possible trial and conviction for murder. Logical RM discussions based on reason can proceed from an informed standpoint as each milestone is reached, with potential titles like "Killing of..." and "Murder of..." etc. But until then, we should follow our usual process of waiting for the right preconditions for RS, BLP, and NPOV policy reasons. Arguments from emotion and compassion may be noble sentiments and "feel right" to some editors, but they are not based in logic. As unsatisfying as it is, patience is required for us to get the article title right at the right time. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' George Floyd was killed, this was caught unambiguously on video, and numerous outlets have described it as a "killing". "Murder of" would be an entirely separate story, because it would be inappropriate until the officer(s) are charged and convicted, but "Killing of" is clearly appropriate, in the same way that the title "[[Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery]]" is appropriate. <b>[[User:TheTechnician27|<span style="color: #00a9ff"><i>TheTechnician27</i></span>]]</b> [[User talk:TheTechnician27|<span style="color: blue">(Talk page)</span>]] 12:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' It's too early for this. Once we get the autopsy and charges/convictions, I think it will be appropriate to move it, but not right now. [[WP:BLP]] definitely applies here as well. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 13:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:Reaffirming my opposition in light of the charges. [[WP:BLPCRIME]] is a policy that must be considered. {{!xt|For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in '''any''' article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.}} As hard as it may be for some people to realize, the officers are living individuals and are innocent until proven guilty. Wikipedia is not a court of law nor is it a platform for righting great wrongs. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 21:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' US English speakers need to be very careful to maintain neutrality, which means political neutrality in this case. If you don't know what that means, or have doubts, then step aside please. Also, it is a great time to look at the international coverage in cases like this. The UK Guardian uses killing https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/27/george-floyd-sister-police-officers-should-be-charged-with-murder. It seems very simple: there was a killer and there was the killed, this death was not caused by unknown or other circumstances. [[User:Hesperian Nguyen|Hesperian Nguyen]] ([[User talk:Hesperian Nguyen|talk]]) 13:09, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Conservative, minimal assertions are best concerning the title of the article. We should not be aiming for a maximally inflammatory title. The title of an article doesn't aim for maximum sensationalism. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 13:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strongly support'''. The current title just makes Wikipedia sound mealymouthed to me. Rather than looking for precedent in the title "Death of Eric Garner" (perhaps overly cautious even in that case), our comparison ought to be with [[Death of Alan Kurdi]]. The death in question here was certainly caused: causing death is killing. [[User:Ph7five|- phi]] ([[User talk:Ph7five|talk]]) 13:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support'''. I think that 'killing' is perfectly neutral because that's precisely what it was. Murder is not appropriate yet, and might not be even if the perpetrator in question is found guilty, but killing implies a clear causal relationship in this case that Wikipedia should recognise. 'Death' is too transactional and considering the video footage and aftermath, wouldn't do justice as to WHY this incident has notoriety in the first place. [[User:LeoC12|LeoC12]] ([[User talk:LeoC12|talk]]) 13:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strongly support'''. I agree the current article title sounds mealymouthed. A killing is what occurred-- "killing" is a distinct term from "murder"-- and thus the article title should be changed to reflect this occurrence, just like the "[[Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery]]" affirms that particular event as a shooting. Furthermore, I fail to see how calling it a killing influences thought versus accurately describing what happened. I will feel even more strongly about this when the autopsy inevitably confirms the cause of death. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f]] ([[User talk:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|contribs]]) </small> <small>— [[Special:Contributions/2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f]] ([[User talk:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|talk]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small> [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 18:47, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Reluctant support'''- ideally we'd just move it to [[Murder of George Floyd]] immediately, but the section above suggests that that wouldn't be possible without a change to BLP, so "killing" is the next-best alternative. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans">[[User:Chessrat|<span style="color:#C90">Chessrat</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Chessrat|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]], [[Special:Contribs/Chessrat|<span style="color:#f78">contributions</span>]]) </sup></span> 14:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as it is clear this person was killed, and backed by reliable sources, death just implies that it wasn't done by a person (i.e it happened due to an illness, etc., not the case). I hold the opinion that we'll eventually move this to [[Murder of George Floyd]], but of course it's too early to do this until an investigation is done. [[User:GoodCrossing|GoodCrossing]] ([[User talk:GoodCrossing|talk]]) 15:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as the video had clearly shown everything needed, fulfilling the chronology of his death per the previous requests of multiple users here. However, I must say that "killing" is too much of a sensationalized term for me. In replacement for a more neutral-sounding title, I'd opt for a "Murder of____" heading instead of the current suggestion [[User:Azurevanilla ash|Azurevanilla ash]] ([[User talk:Azurevanilla ash|talk]]) 15:23, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' at this time. Key words highlighted for emphasis. Until the report comes out, despite with the media is hyping it up to be, it could be anything from murder to alcohol poisoning, drug abuse/overdose, or a stroke/heart attack. [[Special:Contributions/172.101.5.82|172.101.5.82]] ([[User talk:172.101.5.82|talk]]) 15:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*: According to police, Floyd was in a nearby car and "{{Highlight|appeared to be under the influence}}". A spokesman for the police department said the officers ordered him to exit the vehicle, at which point he "physically resisted".
*: According to the Minneapolis police, officers "were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he {{Highlight|appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance.}}" <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/172.101.5.82|172.101.5.82]] ([[User talk:172.101.5.82#top|talk]]) 15:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)</small>
*::That's what the police claimed before video evidence came out... which media universally acknowledge directly contradicted police statements. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*<del>Oppose for now</del> - We need to wait for the majority of RSes to refer to it as a "killing" before we can. If the medical examiner rules this as a homicide, the RSes will likely start using "killing" instead of "death", at which point we should change the title, but until then, we should continue to follow the sources and use "death". It seems we go through this every time there is a new article about a suspected murder, and I wish experienced editors would take on board that we waste our resources when we make premature move requests or have lengthy arguments like this, especially in the first few days. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 16:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
**I'm going to be a real outlier here: it's now a murder case called ''State v. Derek Chauvin'' [http://mncourts.gov/media/StateofMinnesotavDerekChauvin.aspx]. "The death of George Floyd" is the murder alleged in State v. Derek Chauvin. Because this is an encyclopedia, I think articles about notable murder cases should be named after the murder case, and not "murder of [victim's name]" or "killing of [victim's name]". So, I'd '''support a move to [[State v. Derek Chauvin]]'''. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 04:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
::*{{u|Levivich}}, what about [[WP:COMMONNAME]]? "Oppose for now" makes sense to me I think<s>, isn't "death" what most sources use at the moment?</s> [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 19:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC) <small>[[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 20:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)</small>
*'''Oppose''' due to the lack of information. [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 17:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose''' until we have confirmation. [[User:Spengouli|Spengouli]] ([[User talk:Spengouli|talk]]) 17:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' killing or murder, as the event in question is his murder, the act of killing him, not his death. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 17:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Ɱ}}, do you have access to an autopsy report that the rest of us don't? While it is very likely that the pressure on his neck killed him, there is no way to be certain until that report comes out. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 20:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*::[[WP:BLUESKY]], the video is sufficient proof-saying he couldn't breathe before dying. It's public knowledge, not disputed by any credible sources. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 03:11, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::[[Correlation does not imply causation]]. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 05:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*::::Your failure to accept indisputable evidence, a video recording of his murder, shocks me. When Trump finally is recorded shooting someone on Fifth Avenue, I'll remember not to list him as a murderer until he's convicted. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 06:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::::It's not a failure to accept evidence to point out that two events happening at the same time does not mean that one caused the other. And yes, per [[WP:BLPCRIME]] you would indeed be incorrect to list Trump as a murderer in this hypothetical scenario. I understand the general sentiment behind this request and I truly sympathize but we cannot forget that even those police officers involved are relatively unknown living people for whom our policies require a presumption of innocence "unless a conviction has been secured" (per [[WP:BLPCRIME]]). I have not seen any argument so far as to why this core policy should be ignored in this case. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::: Saying Floyd was killed isn't accusing anyone of a crime. There are loads of legal scenarios in which someone can kill someone without committing a crime. Calling this article the "murder of" would be accusing someone of a Crime, and then I'd agree we have to wait until a conviction happens. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 15:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' - Normally I would be neutral on this but there's clear cut evidence on video. That means that I'm supporting it. [[User:Jdcomix|Jdcomix]] ([[User talk:Jdcomix|talk]]) 18:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - the video is enough evidence and was published, the fact is of public knowledge The article is about the killing, not the death as mentioned before [[User:HM7Me|HM7Me]] ([[User talk:HM7Me|talk]]) 18:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:See [[WP:OR]] - basing an article title on your own personal interpretation of a video is not acceptable. Cheers, [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 18:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*::As I pointed out in my comment above, many reliable sources are describing Floyd's death as a killing, so such a label does not rely upon OR. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 19:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' the death looks like a murder. But I will wait until we have all of the facts about the death. There may be some mitigating factor as of yet unknown. [[WP:NORUSH]] probably applies to this. We can always change it later. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 19:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:This proposal is to change the name to "Killing," not "Murder," which is something entirely different. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 19:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*::{{ping|Darouet}} That is a [[Distinction without a difference|distinction without a difference]] [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 02:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::{{ping|Lightburst}} No it's not. A killing means that someone was killed by the actions of someone else. A murder is when they are legally responsible for that killing. Some killings are not murder, most obviously self-defense --[[User:Gimmethegepgun|Gimmethegepgun]] ([[User talk:Gimmethegepgun|talk]]) 05:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*::::{{ping|Gimmethegepgun}} Meh. Obviously there is not support for the change at this point. Maybe later. Until then this is a pedestrian argument and it is just quibbling over semantics. "Death" is appropriate until we have more information. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 14:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Weak support''' - While it is somewhat premature to call it an act of murder, the general consensus right now is that it is a murder. Unless a source comes out and proves the contrary, I think it is safe to assume that the currently provided evidence is correct. [[User:KevTYD|KevTYD]] <small>([[User talk:KevTYD|wake up]])</small> 20:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - The discussion is not about whether he was murdered, as the motives of the officers are unknown so far. However, I believe it is clear from the evidence provided that Floyd's death was purposeful on the part of the officers, and that evidence suggesting he died of other causes is shaky at best. --[[User:Lugnutlarry|Lugnutlarry]] ([[User talk:Lugnutlarry|talk]]) 20:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' - Per {{u|Darouet}}'s reasoning in discussion below, arguments opposed have little basis. Further, agree with {{u|RealFakeKim}} above: Saying we need to wait for law enforcement charges saying it was a Death violates [[WP:WEIGHT]] and "killing" is more common and therefore better for Wikipedia per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. —[[User:Shrinkydinks|Shrinkydinks]] ([[User talk:Shrinkydinks|talk]]) 20:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Oppose''' - Killing implies the article is about a very small subcategory of death--the action of killing. If the article is about the ''killing'', how can we justify putting the protests, lawsuits, etc. in this article? Death, on the other hand, is an all-encompassing title for this topic. Protests are related to the death. (Nobody can protest against the ''killing'' which has already been done). Lawsuits are related to the death. Similar articles also start with ''Death''. For example, the [[Death of Osama Bin Laden]], not the killing of. [[User:Sherwilliam|Sherwilliam]] ([[User talk:Sherwilliam|talk]]) 20:52, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:Really? Please see [[Killing of Harambe]], [[Killing of Cecil the lion]], [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], and [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]]. All of those articles cover protests, lawsuits, and the overall impact. Some even devote a majority of the text to it. There is a precedent. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 23:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' - If we want to get technical / semantic, Floyd's death "ocurred" as a direct result of the actions of Officer Derek Chauvin. "Death" implies lack of a living agent whereas "killing" explicitly identifies one. The evidence as currently presented show no doubt as to the fact that Chauvin killed Floyd. [[User:TheGreatClockwyrm|TheGreatClockwyrm]] ([[User talk:TheGreatClockwyrm|talk]]) 21:57, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' - Video footage and multiple sources all corroborate that it was a killing. As mentioned above, leaving it as death likely violates [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Furthermore, kill is defined as to 'cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing)' - exactly what occurred here. Similar articles are also titled as 'Killing of' so it would be consistent. <span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#37364a">[[User:WBPchur|<span style="color:#FFF">'''WBPchur'''</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:WBPchur|💬]]●[[Special:Contributions/WBPchur|✒️]]●[[User:WBPchur/UB|💛]]</sup> 22:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC).
*'''Strong Support''' - Editors such as myself are not arguing on emotion, I am arguing on the merit of the sources that describe it as a killing, and as stated above [[WP:WEIGHT]] is in violation. [[User:VF01|VF01]] ([[User talk:VF01|talk]]) 22:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' for now. 'Death' seems to be used in similar articles earlier. Seems sufficient for encyclopedic purposes. --[[User:Thi|Thi]] ([[User talk:Thi|talk]]) 22:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' - Just to be clear, to those of you who are arguing we should contravene reliable sources and call this a "death" until the ME report: are you genuinely concerned about the possibility that Floyd may have died of natural causes while his neck was under an officer's knee for seven minutes, and while he stated that he couldn't breathe and that they were killing him? When someone dies in a shooting, do we usually wait for the ME report to describe the incident as a killing, just to rule out the possibility that the victim may have died of a naturally-occurring heart attack in the split seconds before the bullet impacted? We should follow the reliable sources. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 22:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*:Yes, we should follow the reliable sources. However, they overwhelmingly use the word "death" instead of "killing". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per everyone voted "oppose". [[Special:Contributions/2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52|2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52]] ([[User talk:2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52|talk]]) 22:25, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' The [[death of Eric Garner]] and other extremely similar cases use "death of" due to the neutrality of the statement per [[WP:NPOV]]. [[User:Haydenaa|Haydenaa]] ([[User talk:Haydenaa|talk]]) 22:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' killing refers to the death of someone caused by someone else, not necessarily a murder. This is obviously the case here. [[User:Dark-World25|Dark-World25]] ([[User talk:Dark-World25|talk]]) 23:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong support''', changing to "Killing of" is not suggesting a murder, but a death caused by another person. This is both factually accurate and backed by sources which refer to this as a killing. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 23:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' per RealFakeKim. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 23:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support'''Occam's Razor means we must assume the strangulation was a reason for his death, not any other cause for which there is so far no evidence (or even indication). Also for what it's worth, 'Killing of' does not violate [[WP:NPOV]]. [[User:Devgirl|Devgirl]] ([[User talk:Devgirl|talk]]) 00:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''', as this was objectively a killing. The video evidence is right there. "Death" implies a random event without any causal relationship. 00:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nmurali02|Nmurali02]] ([[User talk:Nmurali02#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nmurali02|contribs]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*'''Oppose''' per {{u|haydenna}}. Conformity to [[Death of Eric Garner]] [[Death of JonBenét Ramsey]] [[Death of Breonna Taylor]] etc. Only exceptions are seemingly assassinations &/ animals. That and [[WP:NPOV]] due to it not being an inherent intentional killing. — <span style="text-shadow:red 0em 0em 0.8em">[[user:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:red">IVORK</b>]]</span> <sub>[[User talk:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:Green; font-size:x-small">Talk</b>]]</sub> 01:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*: I would like to point out that the latter article is currently in the process of undergoing a proposal for a page move to [[Shooting of Breonna Taylor]] instead, so it should probably not be cited as firm precedent pending the results of that move discussion. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::"Killing" does not imply intent. According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary|OED]]'', the modern definition is {{tq|extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an '''accident''', over-work, grief, drink, a disease, '''etc.'''}} -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:*'''Note''' Humans are animals too. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 02:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' Our quest for neutrality should not blind us; we can see, on video, an act that led to Floyd's death. Labeling it a killing is no less encyclopedic than labeling [[murder of Tupac Shakur|Tupac Shakur's death a murder]]. If anything, calling it simply a "death" is misleading - "killing" makes it clear that their was another human involved, which objectively, there was - no matter the "cause" of death, he would be alive if he had never interacted with the police officer. Furthermore I would assert that [[death of Eric Garner]] should also be moved to killing, for same reasons. [[User:Thornsie|Thornsie]] ([[User talk:Thornsie|talk]]) 01:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Would be a break from precedent, and implies a certain level of culpability (if not strictly semantically). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 02:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*''' Oppose ''' Death is the most neutral language.[[User:Pharaoh of the Wizards|Pharaoh of the Wizards]] ([[User talk:Pharaoh of the Wizards|talk]]) 02:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*''' Strong Support''' George Floyd was killed, which generated an abundance of reliable media coverage speaking to that fact. The publicity surrounding him is not merely about the fact that he 'died', it is specifically about the fact that he was killed, the manner he was killed, and whom he was killed by. It is the killing of George Floyd that infers notability, not the death of George Floyd. The article title should reflect that. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''', since the process by which Floyd died, not the death itself, is the main topic of the article, and it's pretty much crystal clear that Floyd was, in fact, murdered. --[[User:letcreate123|<b style= "color:black">letcreate123</b>]] <small>([[User talk:letcreate123|<i style= "color:green">talk</i>]])</small> 02:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
**My vote is only further enforced by the fact that it's been confirmed recently that Floyd's death was a homicide, thus, he was killed. Coverage on that matter is already available so it's very easy to verify. --[[User:letcreate123|<b style= "color:black">letcreate123</b>]] <small>([[User talk:letcreate123|<i style= "color:green">talk</i>]])</small> 00:38, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' - the way that George Floyd died, not just the fact that he died, is the subject of this article. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] ([[User talk:Guettarda|talk]]) 03:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' We should wait for autopsy or a judicial ruling before changing it, as *officially* there is no ruling yet and we really should wait for confirmation [[User:Jspace727|Jspace727]] ([[User talk:Jspace727|talk]]) 03:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' As mentioned many times, "death" is the most neutral language right now. Articles will go through name changes down the line anyways, so we should definitely have this discussion again after an autopsy or pathology report. [[User:LittleWhole|LittleWhole]] ([[User talk:LittleWhole|talk]]) 03:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''': Whether or not you believe his death was fair or not, his life was taken by another human, therefore it was killing. There is no debate. He was killed, that's a fact, he's deceased because of another person. Accept it. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/32.213.160.30|32.213.160.30]] ([[User talk:32.213.160.30#top|talk]]) 03:55, 29 May 2020 (UTC)</small>‎
* '''Support''' The main topic is that he was killed. There is strong support for this view. [[User:Wiki5537821|Wiki5537821]] ([[User talk:Wiki5537821|talk]]) 04:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' George Floyd's murder is on video and is even right there in the first picture in the article. Although I'd prefer calling it a Murder, calling it a Killing seems far more unambiguous than calling it a Death (which implies he died from natural causes). [[User:Westindiaman|Westindiaman]] ([[User talk:Westindiaman|talk]]) 04:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:I may personally agree that the officer kneeling on his neck appeared to kill him. However, neither you nor I are pathologists, medical examiners, or coroners and we have not examined the deceased to determine cause of death. To my knowledge this has not been done yet. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 04:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' primarily on precedent for similar deaths. May need to be decided on a wider scope, but "Death of" is common to many similar deaths without compromising their accuracy or neutrality. [[User:StuartH|StuartH]] ([[User talk:StuartH|talk]]) 04:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' it doesn't seem disputed that his death was brought on by the police officer's actions, whether the officer intended to kill him or not. It is not likely he would have died otherwise. So "murder" would be too far, as it implies intent, but "killing" does seem appropriate and a neutral statement of fact. [[User:Paradoxsociety|<font face ="arial black" color="#001A99">Paradox</font>]][[User talk:Paradoxsociety|<font face="arial black" color="#006699">society</font>]] 04:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' breaks precedent and decreases article navigability [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 05:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Oppose''' As per above statements in that it would break precedent, be highly against NPOV, and would allow media sensationalism to dictate articles that are supposed to be objective. --[[User:Therexbanner|Therexbanner]] ([[User talk:Therexbanner|talk]]) 05:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' The fact that this man was killed by another person is supported by reliable primary and secondary sources. Either title is fine to me though as both are accurate. [[User:Gamebuster|Gamebuster]] [[User talk:Gamebuster|(Talk)]]║[[Special:Contributions/Gamebuster|Contributions)]] 05:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Or even change to Murder of George Floyd. ——[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 05:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Killing may not be as premeditaded as murder, but I wouldn't be surprised if the legal accusaion would be manslaughter. [[User:Alandeus|Alandeus]] ([[User talk:Alandeus|talk]]) 07:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Oppose''' There is no reason to change the title of the article when it is serving its intended purpose. [[User:CatcherStorm|<b><i><span style="text-shadow:3px 3px 4px darkgray;"><span style="color:#0000A0">CatcherStorm</span></span></i></b>]] [[User talk:CatcherStorm|<sup><i><span style="color:#2C3539">talk</span></i></sup>]] 06:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' An extremely similar article is titled [[Death of Eric Garner]], therefore precedent has already been set.--[[User:Chimino|Chimino]] ([[User talk:Chimino|talk]]) 07:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' need to wait for a conviction [[User:Yodabyte|Yodabyte]] ([[User talk:Yodabyte|talk]]) 07:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''SNOW Close and Oppose'''. Wikipedia is a [[WP:NPOV|neutral encyclopedia]]. Wikipedia is [[WP:CRYSTAL|not a crystal ball]], and cannot make decisions on a fact of a matter that has clearly not been determined yet. The word "killing" denotes intent. That has not yet been proven in a court of law, and therefore must not be concluded as such in the article title currently. While I sympathize with the plight of those championing a cause for justice for the article subject and working against police violence, per [[WP:NPOV]], Wikipedia is also [[WP:ADVOCACY|not a platform for advocacy]], [[WP:ACTIVIST|activist movements]] or [[WP:NOBLE|personal struggles]]. "Death" is a more neutral while factual term to describe the event for the time being. [[User:Optakeover|<span style="color:#ffffff; background:#3e007e">Optakeover</span>]]<sup>[[User:Optakeover|(U)]][[User talk:Optakeover|(T)]][[Special:contributions/Optakeover|(C)]]</sup> 07:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*: {{re|Optakeover}} my understanding of SNOW is that it's for when something definitely won't pass. By my count the votes are currently tied on oppose/support, so I don't see how SNOW can possibly apply. There's a good chance it will pass, or that it will be tied, there is no reason I can think of to say this will definitely end on oppose. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 11:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*::{{ping|JustLucas}} Who are you to say? What if consensus is for SNOW close? Think about the hypothetical situation. In any case, my reason is based on policy. And that is my point. [[User:Optakeover|<span style="color:#ffffff; background:#3e007e">Optakeover</span>]]<sup>[[User:Optakeover|(U)]][[User talk:Optakeover|(T)]][[Special:contributions/Optakeover|(C)]]</sup> 11:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::{{u|Optakeover}}, this isn't a [[WP:SNOW]] situation imo [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 12:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*::::We rely upon dictionaries to agree upon the meaning of words. According to the OED, the modern definition of killing does not imply intent, and can include "any means" of causing someone to die, including accident. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*::::If you don't know what [[WP:SNOW]] means, please don't call for a snow close. Clearly not a snowball's chance in hell of this being a snow close. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:10, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' As per GorillaWarfare. The officer caused George's death, which is killing. [[User:Cthulhu Inc|Cthulhu Inc]] ([[User talk:Cthulhu Inc|talk]]) 08:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' There is simply no need at this moment to draw an inference as to his cause of death when it will likely be conclusive and readily sourced. Without question, he died and that is a completely accurate title. However, that he was killed creates an impression that an intentional act is what killed him. It looks like the kneeling on the neck is related to the cause of death but that can't be known until there is an autopsy and report issued.[[User:Tridacninae|Tridacninae]] ([[User talk:Tridacninae|talk]]) 08:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' per [[WP:CRYSTAL]]. We have yet to get a coroner's ruling. We all saw something horrible and while it's extremely likely it will be ruled a homicide, there's always the possiblity of ''something'' else we cannot see. I'll be very suprised if that's the case but there is [[WP:NORUSH]]. The title is descriptive of the event. That something looks "obviously" like X still isn't X until it's official. Thinking about it that may be why the four ex-officers haven't been arrested yet. They don't know what the charge will be yet. Bad idea given the last couple of days in the city. They could have always upgraded the charges.[[User:ZarhanFastfire|ZarhanFastfire]] ([[User talk:ZarhanFastfire|talk]]) 08:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' based on sources, for instance Reuters titles "[https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-usa-congress/house-democrats-demand-probes-of-police-killings-of-black-americans-idUKKBN2343LR?il=0 police killings of black Americans]". Inventing our own standards for the usage of the word "killing", such as the presence or lack of a "coroner's ruling" as requested by the comment above, is forbidden by the policy [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. Every !vote above which doesn't rely on sources should be discounted. [[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' given that Wikipedia is a [[WP:NPOV|neutral encyclopedia]]. Multiple tertiary sources use "killing", including the Guardian's artcle "[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/george-floyd-killing-officers-derek-chauvin-tou-thao-investigated George Floyd Killing]" and the German DW article "[https://www.dw.com/en/un-condemns-us-police-killing-of-george-floyd/a-53608812 UN condemns US police killing of George Floyd]". Sources that do not use this terminology tend to be closer to the event and more likely not to be trustworthy. [[User:Althunyon|Althunyon]] ([[User talk:Althunyon|talk]]) 09:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' Wide variety of RS indicate that it was a killing, because the video indicates that it was a killing, because it was a killing. I'm not sure what more else one needs. We must follow the sources. [[User:Symphony Regalia|Symphony Regalia]] ([[User talk:Symphony Regalia|talk]]) 09:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' It is already the general understanding that this was a killing, there is not reason not to reflect that in the name of the article. --[[User:Ratherous|Ratherous]] ([[User talk:Ratherous|talk]]) 09:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' Plenty of sources talk about killing, and it's pretty clear from all available evidence that the officer caused Floyd's death. [[User:BeŻet|BeŻet]] ([[User talk:BeŻet|talk]]) 10:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Per the name of the article of [[Death of Eric Garner]] a similar case <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:1.Ayana|1.Ayana]] ([[User talk:1.Ayana#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/1.Ayana|contribs]]) 11:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)</small>
*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:NPOV]] and convention ([[Death of Eric Garner]]) [[Special:Contributions/39.57.145.208|39.57.145.208]] ([[User talk:39.57.145.208|talk]]) 11:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' – "Killing" is a more adequate term since someone caused the death, "Death" could also mean an accident. [[User:Ca1ek|Ca1ek]] ([[User talk:Ca1ek|talk]]) 12:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''': This is not a death, it is a clear murder, according to maximum news sources. So It should be moved to [[Killing of George Floyd]] [[User:TheChunky|<font color="orange">The Chunky</font>]] ([[User talk:TheChunky|<font color="green">speak</font>]])12:57, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Killing is what happened he did not die of natural causes (well without help), and as for other stuff, A: that is not valid and B: That is just an argument to rename any other pages, not to not rename this one.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' "Killing" is accurate and how it is described in reliable sources, it's not for us to decide. As for the BLP issues, nobody's saying to call it "Murder of George Floyd" which would be (for now anyway) a BLP issue. Even if the use of lethal force were found to be justified, it would still be an accurate statement to say he was killed. [[User:Smartyllama|Smartyllama]] ([[User talk:Smartyllama|talk]]) 13:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' It's not newsworthy that a man died in Minneapolis. It's newsworthy that a man was killed. For comparison with a case where the victim survived, we refer to the Rodney King ''[[Rodney_King#Beating|Beating]]'' not to "the wounds of Rodney King". [[User:Arided|Arided]] ([[User talk:Arided|talk]]) 14:18, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' as RSs continue to use "death" over "killing" including: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52845796], [https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-thursday/index.html], [https://news.sky.com/story/george-floyd-death-minneapolis-police-station-set-on-fire-during-protests-as-trump-attacks-thugs-11996574], [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/us/knee-neck-george-floyd-death.html], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/concern-anger-george-floyds-death-spread-around-country/], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/29/george-floyd-minneapolis-protests-live-updates//], [https://www.foxnews.com/media/laura-ingraham-minneapolis-riots-george-floyd-death], [https://www.foxnews.com/media/trey-gowdy-george-floyd-death-national-conversation], [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/05/28/george-floyd-foxs-sean-hannity-criticizes-minneapolis-police/5281078002/], [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499923-george-floyd-showed-no-signs-of-life-by-the-time-first-responders] so it is the [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. There are also other reasons stated above including adhering to the BLP and Neutrality policy as well as waiting for more infomation like an autopsy or conviction. Regards [[User:Spy-cicle|<span style='color: #ceff00;background-color: #1e1e1e;'><b>&nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&nbsp;</b></span>]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|<sup><span style='color: #ceff00;background-color: #1e1e1e;'><b>''Talk''?</b></span></sup>]] 14:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' to align with similar articles (such as [[Death of Eric Garner]]) per [[WP:CONSISTENT]]. Moreover, until there is an autopsy or formal charges, it would violate neutrality to presume this was a murder by using "killing", even if that ends up being the case. [[User:RunningTiger123|RunningTiger123]] ([[User talk:RunningTiger123|talk]]) 15:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' – The death of George Floyd was caused by another man. That makes it a killing, and we should not deny that. [[User:Sembeljaars|Sembeljaars]] ([[User talk:Sembeljaars|talk]]) 16:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Patience will out. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 16:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per {{u|Gorilla Warfare}}, whose arguments are wholly convincing. Oppose unhelpful [[WP:BADGER|badgering]] by both sides. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 17:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

*'''Support''' - and the facts at hand include an attempted coverup, which I take as cause to believe that Chauvin also considered it a killing. However, I like the suggestion from [[User:Levivich]] to call it ''State v. Derek Chauvin'', with a few redirects. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 23:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

*'''Support''' – While I understand that staying neutral is important but neutrality in this case would be a reflection of supporting something that needs condemning at all levels. What needs not be forgotten is underlying connotations of words. Given the involved officer has been charged with third-degree murder according to this source<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.vox.com/2020/5/31/21276049/derek-chauvin-tou-thao-kueng-lane-officers-george-floyd-what-we-know}}</ref> I firmly believe that the page should be renamed to killing rather than "death"[[User:NotJuggerNot|NotJuggerNot]] ([[User talk:NotJuggerNot|talk]]) 23:23, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

* '''Support''': Floyd was killed. We should reflect in the title more specifically what happened to him. We know he was killed. [[User:WhoAteMyButter|<span style="color:#ffb300;text-shadow:1px 1px 6px rgba(255,153,0,0.6)">WhoAteMyButter</span>]] ([[User talk:WhoAteMyButter|<span title="Talk Page">📬</span>]]│[[Special:Contributions/WhoAteMyButter|<span title="Contribs">✏️</span>]]) 03:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

* '''Strong Support''': The killer was charged with murder, the most recent autopsy agrees with the criminal justice system. There is no reason to deny reality. It's only a matter of time before the DOJ agrees this is murder. What more is needed? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.197.117.9|68.197.117.9]] ([[User talk:68.197.117.9#top|talk]]) 05:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*'''Strong Support''' per the autopsy report. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 07:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

====Second convenience section====
*'''Very strong support''' The videos have made it clear that George Floyd was killed by another person. It is not sensationalist to use "Killing" because this change would not be at the expense of accuracy, while sensationalism does come at the expense of accuracy. This article is about more than just George Floyd's death, the article also talks about the result of the fact that he was killed. Floyd simply dying is not the reason riots are happening right now, it is the fact that he was killed by another person and the title should reflect this fact. [[User:MeumInfernum|MeumInfernum]] ([[User talk:MeumInfernum|talk]]) 13:26, May 29, 2020 (EST)
*'''Strong Oppose''' Until there is an autopsy and/or charges are laid the article's name should remain the same. --[[User:Partridgepentathalon|Partridgepentathalon]] ([[User talk:Partridgepentathalon|talk]]) 17:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Partridgepentathalon}}, charges have been filed in case you would like to update your !vote. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per {{u|Gorilla Warfare}} and {{u|MeumInfernum}}. [[User:ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester|ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester]] ([[User talk:ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester|talk]]) 18:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' until somebody gets a verdict. But considering that technically nobody is even charged yet, it would be an unnecessary breaking of [[wp:NPOV]] which plenty of activists on this site now seem to be all to happy to ignore. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5|2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5|talk]]) 18:19, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - The general consensus right now is that it is a murder. Unless a source comes out and proves the contrary, it should be labeled as such and only changed if the autopsy proves otherwise. [[User:Lbparker40|Lbparker40]] ([[User talk:Lbparker40|talk]]) 18:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' now that the perpetrator has been charged with murder. Plenty of reliable sources describe Floyd's death as "killing".[https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-28/george-floyd-police-chiefs-criminal-justice-reform][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames][https://www.cbsnews.com/live/video/20200529180421-more-on-the-fallout-from-the-killing-of-george-floyd/]. It doesn't matter if other sources, or even more sources, have characterized the killing as "death". Those are not indicative of disparate points of view. As it turns out, death is the direct result of being killed. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per the precedent of other articles like [[Shooting of Michael Brown]], [[Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko]], etc. The word "killing" does not imply murder. "Kill" only implies that Floyd did not die from some cause like disease or suicide; it implies that his life ended upon action by another human being. That Floyd died upon action by another person is irrefutable. [[User:BirdValiant|BirdValiant]] ([[User talk:BirdValiant|talk]]) 18:33, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' His death was caused by another individual harming him. Death makes it sound like he died of disease or natural causes. [[User:CodingCyclone|CodingCyclone]] ([[User talk:CodingCyclone|talk]]) 18:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''', Wikipedia is not judge and jury and should remain a neutral arbiter of facts as they stand, precedence in other articles is that we use "Death" (eg [[Death of Eric Garner]]). If the officers involved are indicted and convicted at trial then will be the appropriate time to discuss renaming the article. [[User:Zerbey|Zerbey]] ([[User talk:Zerbey|talk]]) 18:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' He wouldn't be dead if it weren't for the knee on his neck. He was murdered. To say otherwise is disrespecting Mr Floyd and dissing the truth. [[User:Oxyaena|Ms.23]] ([[User talk:Oxyaena|talk]]) 18:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' - The Wikipedia article on manslaughter states, "Involuntary manslaughter is the killing of a human being without intent of doing so, either expressed or implied." It is obvious from the video that the Derek Chauvin's actions directly lead to the death of George Floyd which is (at least) manslaughter and therefore "killing" is the correct designation. [[User:Kmorris1077|Kmorris1077]] ([[User talk:Kmorris1077|talk]]) 18:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' until somebody gets a verdict. And then it should probably be "Murder" like at [[Murder of Jordan Edwards]].[[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] ([[User talk:Oneiros|talk]]) 18:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' – It's obvious to anybody with eyes that this was a murder, and now that there's a formal charge put forward, there's no excuse left. [[User:Cat&#39;s Tuxedo|Cat&#39;s Tuxedo]] ([[User talk:Cat&#39;s Tuxedo|talk]]) 18:53, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - The manner in which he died has ample evidence. It was at the hands of another person and it's not a coincidence. I understand the need to have a cited source, but when it's plainly obvious a man had his knee on his neck, what more do you need? There's no ambiguity here. [[User:Leitmotiv|Leitmotiv]] ([[User talk:Leitmotiv|talk]]) 19:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' A killing is "an act of causing death." His death was caused. Passive voice in describing the events is not neutral but a deliberate stance. [[User:Liberte et paix|Liberte et paix]] ([[User talk:Liberte et paix|talk]]) 19:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong support''': The page should be moved to Killing of George Floyd as the Cop was charged with third degree murder. <ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/george-floyd-death-live-updates-protests-erupt-200529124843031.html}}</ref> --[[User:Vegitaboss|Vegitaboss]] ([[User talk:Vegitaboss|talk]]) 19:18, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
{{Reflist talk}}
* '''Strong Support''' Derek has now been charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter, making this officially a killing by the courts standards of an arrest warrant. I also think that most 'oppose for now' votes prior to the official charges no longer apply because of the official arrest charges, putting the consesnus largely in favor of a name change to "killing". Would like to hear from any past 'oppose for now' voters to see if they agree.[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 19:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong support''' It should be immediately moved to Killing or Murder of George Floyd as the cop who kneeled on this man's neck is charged with third-degree murder <ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/us-cop-taken-into-custody-over-death-of-black-man-that-caused-widespread-anger-2237530?pfrom=home-bigstory}}</ref> [[User:Neurofreak|Neurofreak]] ([[User talk:Neurofreak|talk]]) 19:49, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Weak Oppose''' – “Killing” feels like it’s getting into POV territory considering the controversy surrounding what happened. Also feels like an unnecessary deviation from similar incidents like the [[Death of Eric Garner]], which also uses “Death of” despite being declared a homicide. - [[User:Koldcuts|Koldcuts]] ([[User talk:Koldcuts|talk]]) 20:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:: Just saw he’s been charged with murder. Oppose is now a weak oppose. - [[User:Koldcuts|Koldcuts]] ([[User talk:Koldcuts|talk]]) 20:15, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per RealFakeKim. [[User:AugusteBlanqui|AugusteBlanqui]] ([[User talk:AugusteBlanqui|talk]]) 20:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' as per semantic arguments given in the discussion section below by {{user|Darouet}}. -- ''[[User:Pingumeister|Pingumeister]]''<sup>([[User talk:Pingumeister|talk]])</sup> 20:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' per RealFakeKim's arguments. [[User:Demoxica|Demoxica]] ([[User talk:Demoxica|talk]]) 20:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as per all the arguments above. Since the officer involved (Derek Chauvin) has been charged with murder, the title should probably be changed to "Murder of George Floyd". [[User:Octoberwoodland|Octoberwoodland]] ([[User talk:Octoberwoodland|talk]]) 20:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' The details of the death are unclear. Killing suggests a motive beyond just wanting to detain someone (regardless of the validity of the reason to want to detain). "Death of" is more neutral. Depending on the final legal outcome a change may be appropriate in the future. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 20:53, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' per BirdValiant. "Death" is not more neutral than "Killing", particularly in light of the charge with third-degree murder. ''Freeman emphasized he and his team would not have moved ahead with the case if they were not confident they had evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the officer was guilty. “As of right now, we have that,” Freeman said.''[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2020/may/29/george-floyd-killing-protests-minneapolis-minnesota-us-twitter-donald-trump-latest-news-live?page=with:block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0#block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0] --[[User:DarTar|DarTar]] ([[User talk:DarTar|talk]]) 20:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' for "Killing", and after the trial another move should be considered WRT "Murder". It is clear that a man's actions resulted in another man's death with just the video alone. The court of public opinion has no place on Wikipedia but this isn't a matter of opinion. "Murder" would be, but "Killing" does not as "Killing" can be state-sanctioned. -- [[User:Sarysa|sarysa]] ([[User talk:Sarysa|talk]]) 21:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' for "Killing" with "Murder" considered in the future, per reasons expressed above by {{user|Sarysa}}. [[User:Calcastor|Calcastor]] ([[User talk:Calcastor|talk]]) 21:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' This is indeed a killing. Derek Chauvin was charged with "Third-Degree Murder" and "manslaughter". If Chauvin had not knelt on Floyd's neck for that long, Floyd might have survived. I would also like to say that, *I feel like "Killing" is more appropriate than "Murder". [[User:Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)|Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)]] ([[User talk:Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)|talk]]) 21:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
::Charging means that investigators think a particular thing. It does not prove that their thinking is accurate. Else, charging would be the end of the matter and we'd have no need to consult those pesky courts. We should wait for the autopsy to determine whether an individual was responsible for the death. It shouldn't take so long; there is no need to rush it. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 21:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' Death is a neutral term and does not imply that it was not caused by another person. Although the police officer has been charged with murder, we should wait till the conviction. [[User:SignificantPBD|SignificantPBD]] ([[User talk:SignificantPBD|talk]]) 22:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' for "Killing" with "Murder" considered in the future. Here's a link to a page that contains the full complaint against Chauvin: https://www.axios.com/george-floyd-police-officer-in-custody-080da82e-9262-47fd-a52c-3ef7421adb10.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3IHDzPMJwi5Oobg6p4z_DkbYnoujgV5UteWUafnkdNWdxGDK4fzf-9U2E [[User:John Link|John Link]] ([[User talk:John Link|talk]]) 22:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
::Based on the consistency argument by {{user| Awilley}} I've changed my opinion to '''Oppose'''. [[User:John Link|John Link]] ([[User talk:John Link|talk]]) 15:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' Mr Floyd was obviously killed by that bitch cop, so "Killing of George Floyd" should be the correct title of this article.[[User:Sadsadas|Sadsadas]] ([[User talk:Sadsadas|talk]]) 22:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Oppose''' I agree that Floyd's death was no question a killing, and I hope the cop rots, but like previous people have mentioned, the Eric Garner page is still titled "Death of". Wikipedia must be free of ANY bias, even if we as social beings all agree that this was a killing [[User:Thurgoodmarshallisbae|Thurgoodmarshallisbae]] ([[User talk:Thurgoodmarshallisbae|talk]]) 23:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' If 4 different video angles (possibly more) doesn’t justify this was in fact a killing of an unarmed black man, I don’t know what ever will. [[User:TruthGuardians|TruthGuardians]] ([[User talk:TruthGuardians|talk]]) 23:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' The officer was directly responsible for Floyd's death and has been charged with murder, therefore he killed him. [[User:GarethPW|GarethPW]] ([[User talk:GarethPW|talk]]) 00:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong support''' The video speaks for itself. And I actually want to add that we have this redirect [[Mohamed Noor (murderer)]], a black Minneapolis Police officer who accidentally killed a white lady. When the cop is black, we have no problem calling it a murder. --[[User:Deansfa|Deansfa]] ([[User talk:Deansfa|talk]]) 00:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
:::That redirect was created ''after'' Noor was actually convicted of murder. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 16:33, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Until the cause of death is officially established, we should not characterize it. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 00:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong support''' "Death" sounds like a natural one. This is the murder we are talking about. Suitable title would be '''Murder of George Floyd'''. Mark my words, even if you wont change the name now, eventually it will end up with "Murder" word only. --[[User:NaveenNkadalaveni|Naveen N Kadalaveni]] ([[User talk:NaveenNkadalaveni|talk]]) 00:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' for all the reasons above. It may not have been a murder but it was unquestionably a killing by any useful definition of the term "kill". [[User:Lexicon|Lexicon]] <small>[[User talk:Lexicon|(talk)]]</small> 01:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''', if reliable sources are using "killed", so should we. "Killing" doesn't require that a crime has been committed, it simply means that a person's death was caused by another person, which is clearly the case here. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 02:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose for now''': Unclear verdict per other oppose reasons. Until a clear verdict on Floyd's death is reached, we should not risk changing the title into something else which throws off other readers. If the title does change, a suitable article name would probably be "Murder of George Floyd," but since a verdict for Floyd is not reached yet we shouldn't tamper with the title yet. [[User:Thissecretperson|Thissecretperson]] ([[User talk:Thissecretperson|talk]]) 02:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' He was killed, no source denies that, so let's call it a killing. --[[User:Denny|denny vrandečić]] ([[User talk:Denny|talk]]) 02:53, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. The police didn't need to knee on his neck for so long if he didn't want to kill him. Humans need to breathe, if you don't let someone do that, then you are killing him.--[[User:Andres arg|Andres arg]] ([[User talk:Andres arg|talk]]) 02:55, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet. <span style="color:#666">&ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|<span style="color:#f90;">&nbsp;+</span>]]</span> 02:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' It’s a killing. Death implies ambiguity about how he died. It hasn’t been adjudicated whether it’s a murder but it’s clearly both true and easily verifiable that it was a killing. [[User:MarylandGeoffrey|MarylandGeoffrey]] ([[User talk:MarylandGeoffrey|talk]]) 03:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet + MarylandGeoffrey. = [[User:Paul2520|paul2520]] ([[User talk:Paul2520|talk]]) 03:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' because of the overwhelming evidence that was filmed and widely published by independent and mainstream media. That officer knelt of the victim's neck for nearly 9 minutes, even after the latter had repeatedly told him he could not breathe, even after passersby pleaded with him to let go of him or he'd kill him. [[User:Israell|Israell]] ([[User talk:Israell|talk]]) 05:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support killing''' as that is what happened. It is not like they died spontaneously and 4 police officers just happened to be holding him in their arms. The problem with such politically charged cases, like trumps weight is one can find physicians to say anything. Wound not user murder. Killing is sort of a middle ground. Death appear to be trying to obfuscate and sanitize what occurred. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 06:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''': It is absolutely true that Floyd died, and calling it a death in no way absolves the officer whose actions caused that death. "Killing" seems accurate but unnecessarily sensationalistic. [[User:Peter Chastain|<font face="Palatino Linotype">Peter Chastain</font>]] [[User talk:Peter Chastain|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[¡hablá!]</sup></font>]] 06:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
** I have a question. Killing doesn't have to be intentional. But what definition of killing do you intend to use. Per one definition it is equivalent to murder, per another it's simply to make something die. It can be used in different situations. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 03:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''': It isn't sensationalist—it's just accurate. [[User:Karmos|Karmos]] ([[User talk:Karmos|talk]]) 06:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' - after watching the video, yeah he definitely killed him [[User:Urgal|Urgal]] ([[User talk:Urgal|talk]]) 07:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''', since there are reliable sources available for "killing" (some mentioned above; e.g. see Nemo's comment). [[User:Ahmad252|Ahmad]]<sup>[[User Talk:Ahmad252|talk]]</sup> 07:40, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''', but only on a technical level, and somewhat weakly at that. [[User:Tentonne|Tentonne]] ([[User talk:Tentonne|talk]]) 08:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''', given that third degree murder charges have been levied, and to accurately assess the situation. [[User:Teddybearearth|Teddybearearth]] ([[User talk:Teddybearearth|talk]]) 08:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' The preliminary autopsy finding leaves open the possibility of accidental death ("''The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death''"). I think we need to wait for such a change until either a conviction, or a more detailed autopsy report. -- [[User:Netwalker3|Netwalker3]] ([[User talk:Netwalker3|talk]]) 08:28, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' If 4 different video angles (possibly more to come) doesn’t justify that this was, in fact, a killing of an unarmed black man, I don’t know what ever will.[[User:TruthGuardians|TruthGuardians]] ([[User talk:TruthGuardians|talk]]) 08:48, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' per TruthGuardians. Simply watching the video settles this discussion. [[User:CrispyCream27|<span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #f4802b; color: #ffffff;">CrispyCream27</span>]] [[User Talk:CrispyCream27|<sup><span style='color: #f4802b;background-color: '><b>''(Talk)''</b></span></sup>]] 09:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' Going to oppose this one. I understand that it certaintly seems like an unlawful killing of a civilian, and I do agree that it was unfair, unjust, and a blatant abuse of power, however Wikipedia is not the place to be using loaded langauge like that, especially considering the very current state of this news. [[User:Maxmmyron|Maxmmyron]] ([[User talk:Maxmmyron|talk]]) 10:10, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong support''' per {{u|RealFakeKim}}, {{u|TruthGuardians}} and {{u|GarethPW}}. Choosing the passive "death" is PoV; it is also loaded language. Floyd didn't just "die", he was killed. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; please &#123;&#123;[[Template:ping|ping]]&#125;&#125; me in replies)</small></span> 10:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - especially for now, but even when the autopsy comes out I'm not sure if we should change it. "Killing" is usually defined as intentionally or deliberately taking someones life, unless that police officer says he intentionally took Floyd's life, I think it would be a NPOV issue to say killing. Death will always be a neutral term, in my opinion. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 10:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' - as per naming conventions. As more information becomes available, the title of the article may need to be changed to reflect this new information. [[User:CremationLily|CremationLily]] ([[User talk:CremationLily|talk]]) 10:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' It is backed up by multiple sources and the video itself. In the current landscape I do not think Death would be considered a neutral term at all, killing more accurately reflects the general opinion from what I have seen. The police officers intentions also should not effect the terminology, killing does not need to be intentional to still be classified as killing. His arrest has also shown that he is considered to have killed someone by the state. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dubarr18|Dubarr18]] ([[User talk:Dubarr18#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dubarr18|contribs]]) 11:05, 30 May 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*'''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet + MarylandGeoffrey. [[User:MacDoesWiki|MacDoesWiki]] ([[User talk:MacDoesWiki|talk]]) 04:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Since the officer has been charged, there is now more than enough justification to change the title. [[User:Kevin n97|Kevin n97]] ([[User talk:Kevin n97|talk]]) 11:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' It would be the Death of George Floyd if he was not murdered, since the current consensus is that he was murdered, it should be the killing. But I do agree that it should wait until the autopsy is complete, but once that occurs I strongly support. [[User:JazzClam|JazzClam]] ([[User talk:JazzClam|talk]]) 13:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' (no longer neutral) per GorillaWarfare and Doc James, but also in light of the (questionably independent) autopsy, which nevertheless suggests that the actions of the police officers were partially responsible for the death. i expound on this a bit in the commentary, but it's clear to me that this is a death as a result of the actions of other people, which is a killing (not necessarily a murder, that's a debate for after the trial). Furthermore, more RSes are referring to it as a killing. Some do still refer to it as a death - it isn't ''not'' a death. But [[WP:COMMONNAME]] applies. In relation to "sensationalism", keeping it as "death" can have an inference of the ''lack'' of an external agency, so it's not an [[WP:NPOV]]-safe approach. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 13:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Oppose''' Since Wikipedia for the most part functions as an encyclopedia and therefore by default must describe any subject as objective, neutral and truthful as possible, Mr. Floyds' death must remain the title of the article until a trial and final investigation of cause of death have been concluded. Any other title is biased and nothing more than a judgmental people's court. We are not medical professionals or judges examining and convicting in this case. If Wikipedia does not entail neutral information, its purpose becomes irrelevant and invalid.--[[User:Lechatmarbre|Lechatmarbre]] ([[User talk:Lechatmarbre|talk]]) 13:58, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I further suggest we change the article title to "Murder of George Floyd" since the police officer that committed the murder has been charged with the same. [[Special:Contributions/74.76.172.231|74.76.172.231]] ([[User talk:74.76.172.231|talk]]) 14:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' unless one can prove that the video was doctored or that Mr Floyd spontaneously got tired of breathing of his own volition. In fact "Murder of George Floyd" should be the name of this article by the time this debate is over. [[User:AnyDosMilVint|AnyDosMilVint]] ([[User talk:AnyDosMilVint|talk]]) 15:14, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Long Oppose''' In tragic situations like this when people are filled with anger and despair it is important that we let policy guide us. In this case the relevant policy is [[WP:Article titles]]. That policy lists 5 criteria up front: '''Recognizability''', '''Naturalness''', '''Precision''', '''Conciseness''', and '''Consistency'''. Other criteria are discussed later: [[WP:Commonname]] and [[WP:NPOVTITLE|Neutrality]]. I will try to evaluate the two titles based on these.
*:The two names are equally recognizable, natural, pricise, and concise. (Note that "precision" is talking about unambiguously identifying the subject and distinguishing it from other subjects, not the preciseness of the words we use.) That leaves us with Consistency, Commonness, and Neutrality.
*:'''Consistency''': If we look at {{cl|Deaths_in_police_custody_in_the_United_States}} we have the following constructions:
*::"Death of [Name]"
*::"Murder of [Name]"
*::"[Name]"
*:There are no instances of "Killing of [Name]"
*:A larger sample of articles is at {{cl|Filmed killings by law enforcement}}. That has similar examples of the above 3 constructions plus a lot of "Shooting of [Name]". But again zero examples of "Killing..." So Consistency favors "Death".
*:'''Commonname''': There's not a great way of measuring this, but Google Search counts (with and without quotes) both favor "Death". (With quotes the ratio was about 4:3)
*:'''Neutrality''': This is largely an issue of [[WP:WORDS]]. On Wikipedia we avoid judgemental and non-neutral words that may introduce bias. In [[WP:SAID]], "Synnonyms for said" could be compared with "Synnonyms for death". "Murdered", "lynched", "martyred", "massacred", "slaughtered", "exterminated", "executed", "passed away" all imply different things and evoke different emotions. But "death" is neutral.
*:'''BLP''' One more consideration is [[WP:BLP|our policy on living persons]]. It is against our rules to conclude that a living person has committed a crime until that person has been convicted in court. "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction." So it would be problmatic to state in Wikipedia's voice that it was a killing. (Obviously if the officer is convicted the article can be moved at that point, probably to "Murder of..." or "Strangulation of..."
:I would also like to respond briefly to some common arguments here that are not based in policy.
::"It is obviously a killing. Anybody can see that in the video. We should call it what it is." [[WP:Original research|It is not our job to make that judgement]]. Our job is to follow the best reliable sources and, in this case, the verdict of a jury.
::"We should wait and see what the autopsy report says." This is good thinking, and the result of the autopsy report should be in the article, but [[WP:BLPCRIME]] is clear that it is the conviction in a court of law in that matters.
::"The officer has now been charged, so we can call it a killing." Again, it's the conviction, not the charge, that matters.
:Final note: As this is a highly emotional topic that is drawing many new editors, the eventual close of this request should include a detailed analysis addressing the arguments and policy basis of the result. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 14:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Awilley}}, your claim "There are no instances of 'Killing of [Name]' " is false. '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Killing+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1 There are more than 30 articles with "Killing of (Name)"]'''.---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 16:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
:::C&C, I didn't claim that there were no articles with "Killing of..." I simply confined my search to categories containing articles similar to this. If you want to do a raw count of all articles everywhere then you should be comparing it to this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Death+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1] <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 18:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
::::I think C&C's list is the relevant compmarison. The "Death of ..." articles includes the much larger category of people who were not killed, for example the deaths of famous people by disease, accident, or other noteorhty circumstances. [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 16:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::SPECIFICO, that's correct. In order to do a meaningful comparison between C&C's list of '''52''' "Killing of..." articles and the list of '''507''' "Death of..." articles you would need to comb through and subtract all the irrelevant articles like [[Killing of animals]] and [[Death of Samantha (song)]] and the articles about people who died of natural causes. This is why it makes sense to use categories to look at a limited samples of people killed by police as I did above. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 14:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Awilley}}, I agree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Filmed_killings_by_law_enforcement is the most relevant precedent, but of the "[noun] of [name]"s there, the vast majority are "shooting". There is no good analog of "shooting" for Floyd, because there's not really any appropriate single word that describes the manner in which he was killed. "Killing" is the next closest thing: less specific as to the method, but still clear that Floyd's death was caused by the police action. No blame or crime is implied. [[User:Danstronger|Danstronger]] ([[User talk:Danstronger|talk]]) 00:53, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''': As long as the article doesn't imply a deliberate killing. Killing can also refer to simply causing death even if you don't mean it. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 17:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' Death is not a neutral term in that situation. As per [[User:Devgirl|Devgirl]], Occam's razor and a ton of evidence point that it was a killing, and. Even though this is not standard practice on Wikipedia, this case is not standard. I feel that omission and labeling as "Death" instead of killing is deliberately choosing to be imprecise. And that implies that there is a reasonable chance that he was not killed. And as per the information available, that is not a reasonable assumption. So death is not "neutral", it is just broader. And casting this shadow of doubt on such an important event is not the goal of Wikipedia. [[User:TiagoLubiana|TiagoLubiana]] ([[User talk:TiagoLubiana|talk]]) 18:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. The standard title format for this situation is '''Death of (person)'''. [[User:KyuuA4|KyuuA4]] ([[User_talk:KyuuA4|Talk:キュウ]]) 19:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong support'''. I 100% agree that the article should be moved to [[Killing of George Floyd]]. I’ve checked on Wikipedia, and from what I see, “Death of” is usually used people like [[Death of Osama Bin Laden]], [[Death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi]], [[Death of Benito Mussolini]], and it is also used for nonviolent deaths and some suicides while “killing of” is used for people like [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], [[Killing of Peter Fechter]], and surprisingly, lots of recent prominent animal deaths like [[Killing of Harambe]] or [[Killing of Cecil the Lion]]. [[Death of Freddie Gray]] is listed as “death of”, but I think I’ll try to change that. [[User:Yoleaux|Yoleaux]] ([[User talk:Yoleaux|talk]]) 20:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''SUPPORT''' They were clearly killed. You have video footage of what happened. There is no possible way he would've just died if he hadn't been in that situation. If the jury rules it was murder, this can be renamed against to Murder of George Floyd. It is not original research to look at a video and see what happened, its common sense. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 21:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Dream Focus}}, that's exactly what original research is. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 00:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. The most reliable source is the video itself. The video clearly shows that Derek Chauvin was the primary factor in George Floyd's becoming unresponsive. I think this is common sense that the most neutral thing we can do is call it a killing. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 22:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support'''. Derek Chauvin was charged with third degree murder of George Floyd. At least from the state prosecution's side, killing or even murder is the correct word to describe what had happened. [[User:JesseC436|JesseC436]] ([[User talk:JesseC436|talk]]) 22:44, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''', per JesseC436. [[User:L ke|L ke]] ([[User talk:L ke|talk]]) 23:06, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Oppose''' results of the autopsy do not show that this was caused by strangulation. Regardless of how you feel about the video, it's best to remain neutral until a trial finds him guilty/innocent, at which point we can change the title if necessary. [[User:Anon0098|Anon0098]] ([[User talk:Anon0098|talk]]) 02:09, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Provisionally Oppose''' The results of the autopsy seems to be inconclusive. I'd wait a few days before moving this page if more reliable sources appear in the meantime. [[user:BrxBrx|BrxBrx]]([[user talk:BrxBrx|talk]])<sup>(please reply with <nowiki>{{SUBST:</nowiki>re|BrxBrx<nowiki>}}</nowiki>)</sup> 02:40, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' because it makes sense with other Wikipedia articles. --[[User:Xicanx|Xicanx]] ([[User talk:Xicanx|talk]]) 06:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''', I do agree that "Death of George Floyd" implies a death due to natural causes. I feel that killing more accurately reflects the situation, especially given the obvious and unjustified police brutality present. Killing does not imply a deliberate intent, "Murder of George Floyd" would be a title that implies that. [[User:Devonian Wombat|Devonian Wombat]] ([[User talk:Devonian Wombat|talk]]) 08:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' "Death" is a passive word, implying "the life just ended". "Killed" is an active word, implying "something happened to stop that life at that point". Except in the most philosophical sense, it is abundantly clear that Floyd would not have died at that time if not for the actions of Chauvin.
*:Even in the highly unlikely scenario that Derek's death happened to be due to some unlikely medical circumstance unrelated to the knee on his neck, it would still be the case that he was prevented from seeking aid by Chauvin, that others were preventing from providing aid by the officers on scene, and that none of the officers on scene took action to provide aid, or call for aid. As such, it is clear that, even if there needs to be some distinction that (from a legal standpoint) this may not yet be able to called a murder, it can definitely, and should definitely, be called a killing.
*:Even putting all that aside, and focusing on what's been published in the media, there is support for the use of the phrase. The Guardian has an article [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/30/george-floyd-protests-latest-at-a-glance-white-house George Floyd killing sparks protests across the US: at a glance guide]. Fox40 has [https://fox40.com/news/local-news/protests-of-solidarity-surround-state-capitol-in-wake-of-george-floyd-killing/ Protests of solidarity surround Stae Capitol in wake of Geoorge Floyd killing]. Politico has [https://www.politico.com/video/2020/05/30/nationwide-protest-erupt-over-the-killing-of-george-floyd-076463 Nationwide protests erupt over the killing of George Floyd]. MSNBC has [https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/george-floyd-killing-highlights-toxic-police-culture-84119621866 George Floyd killing highlights toxic police culture]. If we need more examples, they are plentiful and not difficult to find. [[User:Aawood|Aawood]] ([[User talk:Aawood|talk]]) 09:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' There are precedents for both ways of phrasing it and the passiveness of "Death of" doesn't convey the perspective that ignited the protests. Everything that's happening as a result of George Floyd's death wouldn't have happened if he simply died. His death was caused by another person. He was killed by a police officer. Whether the killing was intentional or not is irrelevant. Whether he had underlying health conditions or not is irrelevant. George Floyd would not be dead if the police officer didn't do what he did. [[User:TJScalzo|TJScalzo]] ([[User talk:TJScalzo|talk]]) 09:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*:With the [https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html independent autopsy] that has been made public, I reaffirm my support for this move. [[User:TJScalzo|TJScalzo]] ([[User talk:TJScalzo|talk]]) 09:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong support''', and per my comment at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Floyd]], I think ultimately this page should be at [[George Floyd]] and expanded to a biography on the subject. In the alternative, a shorter bio at [[George Floyd]] with this page as the main section about his <s>murder</s>killing. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 10:49, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' The whole event hinges on the fact that Gorge Floyd was killed due to use of excessive and unreasonable force by the police. 'Death' plays into the false narrative that he just happened to die while around police. 'Killing' clarifies that the death was caused by the police, which we know to be the case. [[User talk:Melmann|Melmann]] 11:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' for now. People do call it a killing so the redirect makes sense. However, because it is not confirmed yet he was killed, whether intentionally or unintentionally, so Wikipedia should keep the title as death to stay neutral. [[User:OcelotCreeper|<span style="color:#DAA520;">Ocelot</span><span style="color:green;">Creeper</span>]] ([[User talk:OcelotCreeper|<span style="color:#DAA520">ta</span><span style="color:green;">lk</span>]]) 15:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' I understand the neutral language policy etc. However, we cannot change the reality and nature of an event to support neutral language. This is not the matter here. Right now in this wikipedia if you search 'the killing of' you can see a lot of article titles come up with it. On the other hand, it is clear in the footage that the (former) officer knew what he was doing and he did it deliberately. Police education includes CPR and information about what can kill and what happens if you cut oxygen delivery to the brain for more than 5 minutes. Even if he released pressure on his neck before he died he would acquire significant brain injury. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 15:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support:''' It is safe enough to call the situation manslaughter, so killing would be a proper title. I may partly see why people may choose to leave it as "Death", I lean more towards "Killing", since there was police brutality and non-premeditated homicide in the situation. About full on murder, however, I'd rather not rename it like that. [[User:Maese Juan 25|Maese Juan 25]] ([[User talk:Maese Juan 25|talk]]) 17:08, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per sourcing and the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'' of "kill" not not imply intent. I support later moving the page to "murder" if the cop(s) are found guilty. [[User:TJMSmith|TJMSmith]] ([[User talk:TJMSmith|talk]]) 17:48, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' – Media worldwide has already used the word 'kill' to describe the event. Chauvin has also been arrested for murder. [[User:Nahnah4|Nahnah4]] ([[User talk:Nahnah4|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Nahnah4|contribs]]) 18:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per above, there's not much more to be argued [[User:Leotext|Leotext]] ([[User talk:Leotext|talk]]) 18:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support.''' Clearly and obviously a killing. "Death of" is less precise. [[User:Snooganssnoogans|Snooganssnoogans]] ([[User talk:Snooganssnoogans|talk]]) 19:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Further investigation shows that he was indeed choked to death. No need to kneel on the neck of a handcuffed person.[[User:Tinyastro|Tinyastro]] ([[User talk:Tinyastro|talk]]) 19:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support:''' Chauvin is shown kneeling on Floyd's neck to the point of being unable to breath & has been charge with third-degree murder. This is not some random death, but a deliberate killing. [[User:WakandaForever188|WakandaForever188]] ([[User talk:WakandaForever188|talk]]) 19:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' for now, maybe later after a cause of death is more clearly determined. Right now the preliminary autopsy report seems to say natural causes, but the officer has been charged with murder, so the official record is muddled. Many such articles are labeled "Shooting of" but in this case the cause of death has not been clearly established on the record. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 20:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*<s>Oppose</s> While it seems clear he died as a result of his treatment by police, there is no consistent use of "kill" among RS, and per Awiley, "death" is used more consistently in article titles. "Death" is even used as a header in BLPs of murder victims. <u>Also, we should consider the unlikely possibility that he coincidentally died from drugs he may have been on. This is why we should resist the temptation to use OR analysis of the event.</u> [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 21:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)<small>[[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 14:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)</small>
*:'''Strong support''' per autopsy reports. [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 01:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - There's no shortage of sources describing the death of George Floyd as a killing. I understand that Wikipedia tends to prefer using as neutral-sounding of language as possible whenever possible, but calling it a killing is not ''not'' neutral. This is less about neutrality and more about semantics and sources. I can understand why some in this thread have said that Wikipedia should wait until a conviction to refer to the homicide as a murder in the title (as we can't know what charges the suspects will or will not be found guilty of), but it's just a well-documented fact that George Floyd was killed and avoiding describing his death a homicide is an erroneous thing to do. As others have pointed out, stating that he was killed doesn't even suggest that it was purposeful (e.g. accidental vehicular homicide is still killing), it simply provides more specific information. I can sympathize with the viewpoint that using the word "death" could make the article come off as having a more neutral tone, and I share the goal of making the article as neutral and accurate as possible, I simply hold the viewpoint that killing is a more accurate term and that using it does not compromise the neutrality of the article's title. Best wishes <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:Vanilla Wizard|<b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF">&nbsp;Vanilla </b>]][[User Talk:Vanilla Wizard|<b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF">&nbsp;Wizard </b>]]</b> [[Special:Contribs/Vanilla Wizard|💙]] 22:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' Video evidence unambiguously shows that the death of George Floyd was indeed a killing in that the police officer directly caused his death. According to the definition of the word, even an accidental killing could accurately be described as a killing (though this was certainly not accidental). Apparently more credible sources use the word "death" rather than "killing," but I wonder how many use words that are closer in tone to "killing," such as "murder." Moreover, virtually all credible sources, including those that use "death," clearly state that the police officer caused Mr. Floyd's death, which is the definition of the word "kill." Even if autopsy results show that asphyxiation was not the cause of death, there are other ways one could die from having someone kneel on one's neck for over eight minutes, and it would still be a killing. Additionally, said autopsy results are questionable given that Mr. Floyd's family is requesting an independent autopsy. Given that George Floyd was literally begging not to be killed, those who oppose the title change are encouraged to explain the mental gymnastics that they must perform to argue that the police officer did not cause Mr. Floyd's death. Lastly, Derek Chauvin is currently being charged for murder. "Murder" is clearly above "killing" in terms of intensity of wording. However, if Mr. Chauvin is found guilty, then the title of this page would reasonably be changed to "Murder of George Floyd." It would be strange to jump from "Death of George Floyd" directly to "Murder of George Floyd" without the reasonable middle level of "Killing of George Floyd." If not now, when there is already clear video evidence, what would be the appropriate time to transition from "Death of George Floyd" to "Killing of George Floyd" before potentially intensifying the wording to "Murder of George Floyd"? '''EDIT (1 June 2020): The independent autopsy conducted at the request of George Floyd's family has concluded that his cause of death was “homicide caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain.” Moreover, while the preliminary report from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office initially did not find asphyxia or strangulation as the cause of death, the county's full report has ruled George Floyd's death a homicide attributed to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”''' [[User:Donutzebra|Donutzebra]] ([[User talk:Donutzebra|talk]]) 23:56, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, used "killing" in her condemnation of the events.<ref>{{cite web |title=UN Human Rights Chief urges “serious action” to halt US police killings of unarmed African Americans |url=https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25910&LangID=E |website=www.ohchr.org |publisher=OHCHR |accessdate=1 June 2020}}</ref> [[User:Whsun808|Whsun808]] ([[User talk:Whsun808|talk]]) 03:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' the key issue at hand here is NPOV vs. [[WP:Article Titles]]. [[WP:POVTITLE]] states {{tq|When the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title.}} Here, we have no common phrase on the level of the Boston massacre. Both phrases "killing" and "death" are used in media sources, ruling out the possibility of deciding based on usage. In [[WP:CRITERIA]], it really comes down to the "Precision" point. It is more or less unanimously agreed that this is a killing at this point, even by the more conservative sources (see [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/politics/george-floyd-tucker-carlson-rush-limbaugh.html]). Thus this phrase is more precise and at the same time still neutral, as it is a more or less universally agreed upon fact across ideologies. [[User:Sam-2727|Sam-2727]] ([[User talk:Sam-2727|talk]]) 04:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' Move to Premeditated killing/murder of George Floyd. // [[User:Eatcha|Eatcha]] ([[User talk:Eatcha|talk]]) 05:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' So far, perhaps the most comprehensive examination of Wikipedia's editing norms on this subject is by [[User:Awilley|Awilley]] above. It seems to me that most other opposition explanations also cite Wikipedia norms. On the other hand, an enormous number of supporting explanations cite "common sense," or the video of GF's death, or the definitions of "killing" from various dictionary sources. Only a few cite the preference of many RSes, and even this is split. This argument at least addresses the Wikipedia editorial standard. After reading a few hundred positions, I am unconvinced that this group has yet surpassed the evidentiary requirement for moving an article under such deep scrutiny. I will continue to call GF's death a murder in my own speech, but this encyclopedia's responsibility is not only to avoid activism, but to avoid the appearance of activism. It's not pleasant and it doesn't make me feel good, but it's the right thing to do to oppose. [[User:Rvanarsdale|Rvanarsdale]] ([[User talk:Rvanarsdale|talk]]) 06:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*<s>'''Strong Support'''</s> '''SNOW Support''' And wait for clearer evidence before moving to [[Murder of George Floyd]]. If a man has his knee on another man's neck while the second man is screaming for help while gasping for breath, and then the second man dies of a heart failure, it's beyond dispute that he was killed. Intent is not important. Calling 'Death' a neutral term at this point is an absurdly shallow reading of the situation. Innocent until proven guilty can apply to murder, but not to killing, because killing is not necessarily a criminal charge. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 07:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::Changed to SNOW support after the independent autopsy reported homicide, which renders most of this discussion moot now. Suggest we close this as soon as possible. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' Look at the [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]]. There are other articles which start with "killing of," although for some reason the word is avoided when it comes to killing by the police. Perhaps we should also be looking at renaming other articles in which people were killed by police officers. "Death" may seem more neutral in tone, but in actuality it is not neutral in that it de-emphasizes the role which Derek Chauvin played in killing George Floyd. Killing is more accurate. [[User:Arumdaum|Arumdaum]] ([[User talk:Arumdaum|talk]]) 10:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Arumdaum}} You need to explain why using death "de-emphasizes" Chauvin's role. I wouldn't cite Harlins article for precedent for this article. Harlins case has already run its course with convictions and official reports. At this time, we don't fully know Chauvin's role in Floyd's death; I think it's safe to say he had a significant role, but under [[WP:OR]] its not up to us its up to reliable sources. Yes a lot of reliable media sources are saying this is a killing, but some other media sources and some official reports like the autopsy don't say killing they emphasize his health conditions and possible intoxicants. Therefore, under [[WP:NPOV]] we need to balance out these two opinions out. Most importantly, what I'm trying to say is that, especially right now, Floyds death being considered a killing is disputed among credible, and it's not wikipedia job to pick a side. Now, maybe later on after everything is said in done we can have this discussion again. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 17:46, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' sanitized wording is not "neutrality", it is just whitewashing. We are not here to cater to people's feelings, we are here to present facts. He was killed. --[[User:Calthinus|Calthinus]] ([[User talk:Calthinus|talk]]) 14:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose''' We need to stick with Wikipedia's convention of using "Death of" to stick to one our strongest principles of NPOV. I know many people have strong emotions about this article, but using Wikipedia to make a point is not the answer. There is nothing encyclopedic about changing the title to "Killing." It's a political statement that Wikipedia should be avoiding as much as possible. [[User:Angryapathy|Angryapathy]] ([[User talk:Angryapathy|talk]]) 18:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

*'''Support''' — "Killing of..." killing is defined as "an act of causing death". WHERE IS THE CONTROVERSY? George Floyd wouldn't have died if the police officer hadn't kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes. "Killing of..." we already know it - whatever health conditions he might have had, he wouldn't have died if the police officer hadn't kneeled on his neck for 8minutes 46 seconds where is the controversy?? [[User:Holaholahulahop|—Holaholahulahop]]
*'''Support''' See [[List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, May 2020]] where George Floyd is listed. See also [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]] and [[Killing of Peter Fechter]]. [[User:Tvc 15|Tvc 15]] ([[User talk:Tvc 15|talk]]) 20:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' as non-neutral and potentially incendiary. We are '''required by policy''' to maintain a neutral point of view, and while there is any non-trivial question about whether it's a "killing/murder" or "accidental death" or what have you, we need to absolutely remain neutral, period. I understand there is a lot of emotion surrounding this, and for good cause, I think. However, we must stay encyclopedic. Once all investigations are complete, and the dust has settled, then would be an appropriate time to consider a move such as this, but for now it's too soon. [[User:Waggie|Waggie]] ([[User talk:Waggie|talk]]) 21:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. He died from these actions (see offical post-mortem), also support the title "Homicide of George Floyd" as declared by official post-mortem. [[User:Banak|Banak]] ([[User talk:Banak|talk]]) 22:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' - kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes will kill them. Per vast numbers of reliable sources, this was a killing. Not describing it as such is a dereliction of [[WP:N]]. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' It's clear to anyone that this was a killing. I'm !supporting now because [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf the official autopsy report] from the county medical examiner has confirmed that this was a homicide. [[User:Davey2116|Davey2116]] ([[User talk:Davey2116|talk]]) 23:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' - Floyd's death was not an accident, as quite a few editors have mentioned already. The murder even looks like a reference to the Kaepernick protests from a few years ago [[User:KohrVid|KohrVid]] ([[User talk:KohrVid|talk]]) 23:20, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' Adding my voice to the chorus that the evidence has mounted with enough credibility that Floyd's death was a killing, whether intentional or not. Death implies too much passivity or happenstance and doesn't capture the nature of the tragic event. P.S. I would advocate for "Murder of.." but I know how ... conservative the Wiki community is (not politically but editing wise) so this is a reasonable compromise. Anyone who disagrees well... I'll let my Twitter speak on that. [[User:Jccali1214|Jccali1214]] ([[User talk:Jccali1214|talk]]) 00:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong Support''' I would support it being changed to "killed" because it is absolutely certain that he was killed by a person. "Death" implies that Mr. Floyd died due to natural and/or accidental causes. We know, based on solid evidence, that this is simply not true. If the article ''title'' says he was killed, the title would more accurately summarize the event. [[User:Ravishsingh00724|Ravishsingh00724]] ([[User talk:Ravishsingh00724|talk]])
*'''Support''' As per the sourced [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf autopsy report] and other previously mentioned sources. - [[User:Wiz9999|Wiz9999]] ([[User talk:Wiz9999|talk]]) 01:11, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong, speedy, and SNOW support''' per WP:BLUESKY and autopsy. There is consensus for this move and it should done immediately. With all due respect, [[WP:NODEADLINE]] is not applicable on this one. I'm strongly tempted to make the move myself. [[User:Feoffer|Feoffer]] ([[User talk:Feoffer|talk]]) 02:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Wikipedia should err on the side of caution, but the word 'killing' is without intent. The offical manner of death is homocide, that is, killing.[https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf] Therefore I think it is more important to phrase the article as it is reflected in the current official records. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Pabsoluterince|Pabsoluterince]] ([[User talk:Pabsoluterince#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pabsoluterince|contribs]]) 06:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

====Tally====
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Support !! Oppose
|-
| 150 || 80
|}
[Latest update: [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 01:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)]

100 For, 63 Against as of 11:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC). There will be errors because of the number of votes feel free to edit it. Note I only looked at bold text or text next to a built point and only in the survey section. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 11:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

:Is there any robot to tally automatically? --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

:{{u|RealFakeKim}}, what's this for? Requested moves go for 7 days and it has been 3. Also this is [[WP:NOTVOTE|not a vote]]. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 11:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
:*An easy way to see what the generally opinion is. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 13:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
:::Additionally, the addition of the word "strong" [[WP:STRONG|has no actual bearing]] on the strength of the underlying argument, which is assessed by the editor who closes the discussion and depends on how well-reasoned the arguments are in the context of [[WP:PG|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]], particularly its [[WP:NC|naming conventions]]. [[User:Mz7|Mz7]] ([[User talk:Mz7|talk]]) 17:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
::::Having said that, polls play a valuable role in Wikipedia: they highight just how misleading polls can be in identifying consensus. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 18:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::[[User talk:Serial Number 54129|Serial Number]] Does consensus mean you can defy a policy even if that policy isn't changed nor that policy mentions any exception? If yes, what's the point of having policies if people don't need to follow it and saying Wikipedia is not a democracy? Policies are different than guidelines which people can choose not to follow. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 18:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
::{{ping|DIYeditor}}This is not a vote-only. There were no pure votes and all votes include a statement. It is a discussion with a "support" or "oppose" at the top, it is you that understand it as a vote. --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|DIYeditor}}: Do you see only votes on this picture? [[File:Talk-Death of George Floyd 20200601.png|500x500px]] No, they all have a reason. --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::The title is [[Talk:Death of George Floyd#Survey|"Survey"]], not "Vote". --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:57, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:*Updated to show current positions. I removed Strongly Support and Strongly Oppose as they have no bearing on anything, so Support shows all supporting votes and Oppose shows all Opposing. I did this by doing a Ctrl F and subtracting all those that were stricken, or in explanation, or somewhere else on the page. [[User:AlternateHistoryGuy|AlternateHistoryGuy]] ([[User talk:AlternateHistoryGuy|talk]]) 22:42, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
:*Updated count, it reflects all unambiguous votes so far. (Did not check for duplicate votes, relying on good faith.) [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 01:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Our policy is [[WP:NPOV]] and the language of murder or killing is not neutral - is not based on facts in evidence, and does not square with our policy. IMO it does not really matter how many editors stomp their feet and demand that this title be changed to something that is not yet established and violates our policy on neutrality. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 14:00, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
**What is the grounding of neutrality in your opinion? If the majority of reliable sources said that the sky was purple, would we put that on Wikipedia? No, because we are allowed to apply a bit of common sense. The most trustworthy evidence, direct videos of the event, show it to be a killing. To not abide by that bit of common sense would not be neutral. And by the way, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia made by editors. To say that the opinions of editors do not matter as much as a policy guideline is the direct antithesis of what Wikipedia is about. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 16:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
:::{{ping|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo}} We follow policy on Wikipedia, as we did with [[Death of Eric Garner]] who essentially died in the same manner. Sometimes a closer has to assess opinions expressed by passionate editors and then weigh those opinions against our policy. I am not sure how to respond to your hyperbole regarding the sky is purple, but I got your point. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 17:17, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Lightburst}} Yes, I understand why policy is useful, and why looking at precedents is also useful in deciding what to do. I was using hyperbole to prove my point: policy and precedents are helpful but they should not dictate actions 100% of the time. (I think this is the idea behind [[WP:IAR]].) This is a case where they may be contradicted by common sense, which says that this is at the very least a killing. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 17:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' we should be following the NPOV principles set down by [[Death of Eric Garner]] or [[Death of Kelly Thomas]] etc etc. [[User:Alssa1|Alssa1]] ([[User talk:Alssa1|talk]]) 08:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - I think [[WP:NPOV]] should explain this one. Using the words “murder” and “killing” is not neutral. Then again, different political groups use different words to politicize an event like this. [[User:RedRiver660|RedRiver660]] ([[User talk:RedRiver660|talk]]) 14:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strongly Support''' The independent autopsy calls this a homocide, so I think this is safe <ref>https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html</ref> [[User:Syryquil1|Syryquil1]] ([[User talk:Syryquil1|talk]]) 21:18, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' following two autopsies that found he was killed. – [[user talk:Anne drew Andrew and Drew|<span style="color:#074">Anne&nbsp;drew</span>]] 23:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' The police were trying to arrest Floyd, but ended up killing him instead despite bystanders telling one of the officers at the dig to "let him go". '''''[[User:Hansen Sebastian|<span style="color:DD0000">Hansen</span>&nbsp;<span style="color:BBBBBB">Sebastian</span>]]'''''<sup><span style="color:00CCFF">[[user talk:Hansen Sebastian|Talk]]</span></sup> 00:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''': the official autopsy from the county came out, with cause of death listed as "homicide". --[[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 00:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - since this article is primarily about the events that led to his death, which was caused by another person, and meets the definition of "killing", per reliable sources. [[User:Bneu2013|Bneu2013]] ([[User talk:Bneu2013|talk]]) 01:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''': I think this would go against the previous precedent of other similar articles. It also wouldn't be neutral or unbiased. [[User:Herbfur|Herbfur]] ([[User talk:Herbfur|talk]]) 03:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' As stated above, there is already precedent in articles such as [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], for example. The obvious killing is supported by the findings of the independent autopsy report released today. [[User:Buffaboy|<span style="font-weight: bold; color: #002C73;">Buffaboy</span>]] [[User talk:Buffaboy|<sup><span style="font-weight: bold; color: #EDA900; ">talk</span></sup>]] 03:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*:Note, though, that in Harlins' case, there was a conviction of the perpetrator for manslaughter. On the other hand, articles like [[Death of Kelly Thomas]] and [[Death of Eric Garner]] which Alssa1 points out above use "Death". The difference between these articles and Harlins' article? In those cases the perpetrators were not tried or convicted. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 09:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' Both the public and independent autopsies have concluded that Floyd's death was a homicide and that the direct cause of death was asphyxiation due to the officers kneeling on him. He was killed. The article absolutely must reflect that. [[User:Waterfire|Waterfire]] ([[User talk:Waterfire|talk]]) 03:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - He didn't just die randomly, he was killed. [[User:Koridas|Koridas]] <small>(...[[User talk:Koridas|Puerto Rico for statehood!]])</small> 04:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

===Discussion===
Almost every "oppose" vote argues that a pathology report is needed to ascertain whether Floyd was killed, or implies that "killing" has the same meaning as "murder."
*According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'', the verb "kill" does not necessarily imply intent: {{tq|To put to death; to deprive of life; to slay, slaughter. In early use implying personal agency and the use of a weapon; later, extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an accident, over-work, grief, drink, a disease, etc.}} By contrast, "murder" implies intent: {{tq|To kill (a person) unlawfully, spec. with malice aforethought (in early use often with the additional notion of concealment of the offence); to kill (a person) wickedly, inhumanly, or barbarously.}} Whoever closes this requested move should ignore votes implying that killing and murder are the same, or arguing that a trial and murder conviction are required to rename the article to "killing of..." "To kill" and "to murder" are different verbs in the English language.
*I cannot find a reliable source arguing that Floyd may have died from underlying medical conditions unrelated to the officer pressing his knee down on Floyd's neck, while Floyd begged that he was being killed, and while onlookers exclaimed that Floyd was being killed. Can someone find a source making this argument, or is this pure speculation?
*Many sources refer both to Floyd's death and to his killing, e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52834685 the BBC], [https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-05-28/biden-trump-issue-very-different-calls-for-justice-in-george-floyd-killing US News], [https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-george-floyd-minneapolis-kass-20200528-6rjhnhggezgotdfiieqvcrcfpy-story.html the Chicago Tribune], [https://www.thecut.com/2020/05/man-pinned-down-by-minneapolis-police-officer-dies.html the Cut], [https://sports.yahoo.com/george-floyd-death-nfl-players-duane-brown-kaepernick-223813104.html Yahoo News], [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/entertainment/george-floyd-ice-cube-trnd/index.html CNN], [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/hundreds-protest-police-death-of-george-floyd-in-minneapolis.html NY Magazine], [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/us-police-officers-fired-rehired-why the Guardian], [https://time.com/5842687/george-floyd-killed-minneapolis-police/ TIME], [https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/pictures-hundreds-demand-justice-george-floyd-200527133305569.html Al Jazeera], [https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/28/univ-of-minnesota-police-dept-george-floyd-death-killing/ TMZ], [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-protests-turn-violent-over-minneapolis-mans-death-while-in-police/ The Globe and Mail], [https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-pictures/minneapolis-george-floyd-protest-police-killing-photos-1005678/ Rolling Stone], [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499899-doj-george-floyd-death-investigation-a-top-priority The Hill], and so forth. At this point "Killing of George Floyd" returns more google hits than "Death of George Floyd."
Arguments that murder and killing are the same, that a pathology report is needed, or that reliable sources don't use this phrase, are all false. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

*To be fair, COMMONNAME in RS is split down the middle. There are just as many sources using either title suggested to refer to the incident. This is a very old dispute on Wikipedia, going back years. Here are some examples that I have participated in:
**[[Talk:Shooting_of_Ahmaud_Arbery/Archive_5#Requested_move_12_May_2020]]
**[[Talk:Shooting_of_Terence_Crutcher#Requested_move_23_November_2019]]
**[[Talk:Shooting_of_Atatiana_Jefferson#Requested_move_14_May_2020]]
:We may need a bigger RfC to solve this often brought up dispute. <s>While I !voted oppose above,</s> I usually agree with changing these titles to "Killing of". The biggest argument RMs have faced is that there is precedent established by the many "Death of" and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Shooting+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1 "Shooting of"] article about police involved killings. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 23:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I've noticed a shift over the course of this Requested Move from "oppose" to "support". That implies that the facts of the event are still coming out, and this Requested Move was started too quickly. Should this be speedily closed as too soon? [[User:Benica11|Benica11]] ([[User talk:Benica11|talk]]) 00:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* Agree with the above. The facts of the case have evolved, which renders many of the initial "opposes" questionable and helps explain why there has been a shift to more support votes. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
* Based on the understanding that this is an encyclopedia, dealing with common knowledge, not a work of forensic/scientific nature, I support. It is not an interpretation of a video, it has become common knowledge that it was a killing and its public interest (what legitimates it as encyclopedic interest) is the fact that it was an act of brutal violence, regardless technical scrutiny.
So, if not 'killing of...' then perhaps it would be more clear to express the idea of 'brutal death circumstances of ...' [[User:HM7Me|HM7Me]] ([[User talk:HM7Me|talk]]) 02:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' In other cases, the way the person died is often used in the title, hence "shooting of...". How about [[Suffocation of George Floyd]] as an alternative. Just an idea. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 02:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:{{U|HAL333}} Is there are coroner's report that says he died of suffocation? If that were the case I think we would just go with "killing". Otherwise it's not demonstrated. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 03:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*::Anyone with a modicum of medical training or common sense will recognize that digging a knee into someone’s neck for a prolonged period of time will kill them. Hence Floyd’s cries that he was being killed, protests by onlookers that he was being killed, and RS statements and headlines that he was killed. As {{u|GorillaWarfare}} pointed out, we don’t speculate on whether someone died of a heart attack when they were shot to death. And I can’t find a single RS suggesting that Floyd died of some cause unrelated to the knee digging into his neck. There is none. This argument is spurious. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 04:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::Anyone with a modicum of medical training or common sense will recognize that we do not know what he died of, and will not know until the medical examiner's report is issued. Just as some examples, we don't know if he passed out because is airway was constricted or if it was the arteries, or maybe it was the chest compression. Or maybe he was poisoned. We don't know. All we're doing for now is speculating based on videos--that is not a medical diagnosis. Anyway, it doesn't matter what we think we saw on the video. All that matters is what RSes call it, and I agree with C&C that as of now, RSes are split on the usage. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 04:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::{{u|Darouet}} What you or I think is common sense is irrelevant. Frankly, I might get blocked if I said what I thought of the kneeling officer and what he did. Most of the RSs I've seen say "died" rather than "killed" but I haven't analyzed a breakdown by percentage. This is not a case where someone was shot, which I think would have no equivocation in the sources at all - it would be described as "killed" in every source! Instead from what I have seen most of the best sources are cautiously saying he died, responsibly waiting for a cause of death to be determined. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*::::When an article covers the "Shooting of John Doe", shooting isn't necessarily the direct cause of death. It might be massive internal bleeding, or a ruptured stomach. Whatever Floy died of directly, suffocation caused it. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 13:30, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::::There are a variety of ways that he could have died as a result of a knee being on his neck for several minutes, which do not necessarily have anything to do with suffocation. The most likely of those alternatives is blocked bloodflow to the brain --[[User:Gimmethegepgun|Gimmethegepgun]] ([[User talk:Gimmethegepgun|talk]]) 16:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*::::::{{u|Darouet}} and {{u|HAL333}} now that an autopsy has been released that indicates it was indeed heart disease and that there are no signs strangulation or suffocation caused it, do you see the problem with the OR assumptions you made? [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 06:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
*:::::::{{u|DIYeditor}} I do. As I said before, it was just an idea. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 15:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)It seems like the titling of these sorts of articles is currently all over the place, and thus potentially subject to biases. For example, try looking up "prefix:Killing_of", "prefix:Death_of", "prefix:Murder_of", etc. in the search bar. [[User:Loooke|Loooke]] ([[User talk:Loooke|talk]]) 04:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Hennepin County Medical Examiner on 5/28 [https://www.fox9.com/news/medical-examiner-awaiting-final-lab-results-in-floyd-case-before-making-cause-of-death-ruling]:
:{{tq|"The Medical Examiner recognizes the public expectation for timely, accurate, and transparent information release, within the confines of Minnesota law," read the statement released Thursday. "However, the autopsy alone cannot answer all questions germane to the cause and manner of death, and must be interpreted in the context of the pertinent investigative information and informed by the results of laboratory studies."}}
I understand emotions are running high. I understand what the video looks like. I completely understand how the video makes people feel and that it may seem insulting to say we don't know how Floyd died. The fact is, we don't have a reliable source for how he died and the various reliable sources covering this are not consistent in how they describe the events. As soon as a Medical Examiner's report is in calling this a homicide or something equivalent I will support moving this to "Killing of George Floyd". [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:Despite what someone said above about medical training, this discussion goes to show what we think we see and what is there are not the same thing. How can it be "suffocation" when the man was speaking? He ''felt'' like he couldn't breathe. He felt like his stomach and everything else hurt. Cleary he's in fear of his life. Kneeling on the man's neck from the back is not actually obstructing the airway through the mouth and nose--that's what suffocation is. What's going here is something else, like pinching nerves and/or an artery, blood flow, etc. We can't be anywhere near as specific as the cause of death. That's interpretation.[[User:ZarhanFastfire|ZarhanFastfire]] ([[User talk:ZarhanFastfire|talk]]) 09:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
::This is completely irrelevant: how does a pinched nerve, blocked blood flow, suffocation, etc. influence the semantic question of whether he was killed? It doesn't. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
*{{u| DIYeditor}} Did you see Michael Baden's independent autopsy? He concluded Floyd died of asphyxiation. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">'''HAL'''</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 19:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Why is this a debate, he was killed. When you stick your knee into someone who is on the ground handcuffed and unable to defend himself, it is a murder, however we can’t say that until the police officer is charged.

In conclusion, it is a killing, so please change the title.
[[Special:Contributions/2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C|2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C]] ([[User talk:2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C|talk]]) 06:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:The Coroner just ruled that it was not an asphyxiation-caused death. [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-died-police-restraint-combined-health/] [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 22:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:::Here is the full report. [https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf] [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 23:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500
::And this is why we wait for reliable information instead of rushing into matters haphazardly. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 22:20, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:: That certainly needs to be added to the article. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 22:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:: That article explicitly attributes blame to the police officer's actions, all it says is that he wasn't strangled or suffocated in the traditional sense. It doesn't say he would have died anyway, it says the police contributed to his death. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 23:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:::So if he wouldn't have died ''but for the restraints'', the officer is to "blame"? Being a but-for cause doesn't make you blameworthy. Else, the shop owner was to blame for calling the cops, for without that intervention, the incident would never have occurred. It needs to be shown that what the officer did was culpable.
:::For an act to be criminal, you have to show it was unreasonable and (depending on the offence) dangerous. A knee applied with enough force to effectively strangle a man is, obviously, unreasonable and dangerous. But the less force it was applied with, the less likely it was either of those two things. To be clear, I am not saying this is true. I am merely pointing out that it does in fact change things. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 00:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
:::Now that we have the new autopsy report with the homicide ruling, can we please close this discussion and do the move? [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

'''Accidentally kill''' https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/nov/29/what-happens-to-your-life-after-you-accidentally-kill-someone
'''unintentional killing ''' https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/involuntary-manslaughter-overview.html
No killing does not mean intentional or murder.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:14, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

:*After the release of an initial medical examiner's report, the BBC nevertheless announces in the very first sentence of their article on the topic this morning [https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52857334]:
::{{talk quote|Protesters have clashed with police in cities across the US over the '''killing''' of an unarmed African-American man '''at the hands of officers''' in Minneapolis.}}
::Agreeing with {{u|Slatersteven}}, {{u|Doc James}}, {{u|NaveenNkadalaveni}}, {{u|MrX}}, {{u|HAL333}}, the ''BBC'', and a now very substantial majority commenting and voting on this RfC. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 13:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
:::At its core, opposers are arguing that we don't have enough information imply causation at this time, which "killing" most certainly presupposes.I understand that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and that other RS articles have used "killing", but that does not necessarily mean it is the most accurate or neutral term. If/when the coroner confirms that the actions of the officer directly caused the death of the Floyd, I'm game for the move, but until then, I would argue that "death" is the most neutral term we can use at this time. [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 17:15, 30 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500
*'''Comment''' Now that the autopsy report is out, and we have a charge, some observations.

{{quote|The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death.
The defendant had his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds in total. Two minutes and 53 seconds of this was after Mr. Floyd was non-responsive. '''Police are trained that this type of restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous.'''}}
(emphasis added).

I will point out that when referring to the medical situation, the legal principle of [[Eggshell skull]] applies - it's not even a legal defence. But we're not currently debating the legal situation of culpability, but the act of "killing" - which isn't necessarily unlawful. The autopsy suggests against "traumatic asphyxia or strangulation" - but [[Positional asphyxia]] is not discussed. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 13:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
:Thin-skull rule means that you take your victim as you find them, as it relates to causation and the actus reus. Thin-skull is important as it can defeat the mens rea element. For example, I might slap my neighbour and he might die because I slapped him on his thin skull; but I do not have the intent to cause death or really serious harm (for the English definition of murder). In contrast, if I kill my neighbour by applying enough force to defeat an ordinarily formed skull, I am more likely to have murderous intent. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 18:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

::::Let's be clear. The ME has not ruled on a cause of death. The criminal complaint says that "The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation", and states that several factors "likely" contributed to his death. This is not a final determination of causation and we cannot go beyond these '''preliminary''' findings. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 13:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' - I already put my oppose in the survey, but I would like to elaborate on it some. We can't seem to agree fully on what the definition of "killing" is; however, we can at least agree that it means for one person to take the life of another. As of this moment, we don't know fully know if George Floyd was killed by that police officer; according to the autopsy section it doesn't appear clear what killed him. In order to remain fully neutral and stay in accordance with NPOV, we need to only base the title with the available facts. I've noticed a lot of the the supports say something like "the video is clear he was killed by that cop," it's not our place under [[WP:OR]] to decide if Floyd was killed by that officer. Yes some news sources have said that; however, I don't think those sources can be used in this context only official reports like the autopsy and later convictions. At the very least, this move needs to be closed with no consensus until we get all the facts straight. All we know is George Floyd is dead, and the title needs to reflect that fact. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 08:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

*'''Support'''. I will try to limit this comment to novel arguments—note that I concur with the arguments given above; reliable sources refer to the event as the killing of George Floyd, and it is clear from the video that he was killed. "Death of George Floyd" is not a neutral title. Though it is true that the killing of a man would also be his death, Wikipedia does not exist in a vacuum, and using the term ''death'' when ''killing'' is the more common usage draws attention to itself. The title "Death of George Floyd" seems to take a side on the matter as much as "Killing of George Floyd"; though intended as a neutral description, it is distractingly obvious that the word ''killing'' has been avoided. [[User:Kilopylae|Kilopylae]] ([[User talk:Kilopylae|talk]]) 13:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|Kilopylae}} why is death not a nuetral term? You mentioned that "killing" is what's commonly used by reliable sources, by reliable sources I'm assuming you mean news/media references generally seen as credible. However, under [[WP:NPOV]] we are supposed to balance these often bias media sources with more objective sources let say like the autopsy (in my opinion the autopsy/official reports should trump media sources). A death isn't always natural; therefore, killing or even murder would fall under the term death. Therefore, "death" would please people who think George Floyd was killed and the rather minute amount of people who think he may have died from some natural or other unspecified causes. You can't say that using the term "death" is just as much picking a side as using "killing" because it's not, "death" is a broad term that fits pretty much every criteria. Also, we need to take in account precedent ([[Death of Eric Garner]]). The dictionary and precedent favor "death" as a neutral term over "killing." [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 17:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Iamreallygoodatcheckers}}, autopsies are [[WP:PRIMARY]]. It's not clear that ''The Hennepin County Medical Examiner'' is an '''independent''' source. That very issue has been raised by Mr Floyd's family, who have requested an independent autopsy.
::
::Ergo placing this questionable primary source above respected secondary sources I think would be a grave mistake. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
{{dedent}}
And, having just googled the above, I encountered: {{tq|'''An independent autopsy into the death of George Floyd found that his death was a homicide and the unarmed black man died of "asphyxiation from sustained pressure."'''}}<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref> Dedented because I think this is an important development. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' the county medical examiner's office just ruled this a homicide. There is not a single source suggesting Floyd died of natural causes, not even fringe sources which should have no bearing anyway. Why is this even still a discussion at this point? [[User:Smartyllama|Smartyllama]] ([[User talk:Smartyllama|talk]]) 22:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
:: Source<ref> Official post-mortem declares Floyd death homicide https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52886593</ref> (I'm sure there are others...) [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 22:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

'''Call for change of vote''' Most of the oppose votes above hinged on the fact that from neutrality considerations, we should wait for an autopsy report to indicate that the death was not from natural causes. Now that an independent autopsy has established it was a homicide<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref>, I request these members to change their votes to support. I also believe this now falls under [[WP:SNOW]], as it is difficult to argue now in good faith that it's not neutral to call it a killing. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
: Both the official autopsy report and pathologists hired by the Floyd family, including former New York chief medical examiner Dr. [[Michael Baden]], conclude that homicide was cause of death.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Stelloh |first1=Tim |title=George Floyd's death ruled a homicide by medical examiner |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/george-floyd-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-n1221431 |website=NBC News |publisher=NBC News Digital |accessdate=2 June 2020}}</ref> Those that argue that we should wait for a jury's verdict are in error, because a jury determines whether a victim of a homicide was in fact murdered in the strictly legal sense (as opposed to, say, an accidental killing). But ''all'' homicide victims are "killed." So all who argued that we should wait for the autopsy should change their votes.
: [[User:Dylanexpert|Dylanexpert]] ([[User talk:Dylanexpert|talk]]) 02:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

'''Oppose''' Violates [[WP:MOS]]. [[User:Nightvour|Nightvour]] ([[User talk:Nightvour|talk]]) 01:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

'''Make the move immediately'''. We like to say There Is No Deadline, but that doesn't really apply here. We have to choose between two titles, and our editors clearly favor "killing" as more befitting for all manner of reasons, particularl in light of filed charges and medical results. [[User:Feoffer|Feoffer]] ([[User talk:Feoffer|talk]]) 02:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

Comment. The Medical Examiner has come to the same ruling of homicide as the private autopsy. [[User:IssaRevol|IssaRevol]] ([[User talk:IssaRevol|talk]]) 04:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

*'''Support'''. Both autopsies conclude that the death occured because of the neck compression by the law enforcement officer. The only difference is that the medical examiner's office claims that the combination of the neck compression with the underlying health problems caused the death. Also the term "death" doesn't disambiguates whether the death occurred by natural causes or not in contrary with the more clear terms like "killing" and "murder".[https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy cnn] [[User:Gnslps|Gnslps]] ([[User talk:Gnslps|talk]]) 04:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

*'''Strong Oppose:''' I feel that if we start using the word murder, killed, etc. it can be considered incite full even down the road putting us where we are now in this world. I prefer we stick with Death of as we (as a community have previously done on a lot of these types of articles. If this were to be changed as things kinda boil down to cold water and the country gets a hold on this without affecting BLP and what orange guy in the White House decides to do over the next couple of days or weeks based on his statements on June 1, 2020 I feel we need to leave this at Death of for the time being. This is also still an ongoing investigation so there will be other things that come into play I’m sure. [[Special:Contributions/2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3|2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3]] ([[User talk:2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3|talk]]) 08:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - I'm legitimately interested to know what a move for this article would mean for the [[Death of Eric Garner]] article, then, since the two cases are extremely similar. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 08:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' Just see the Blacl Lives Matter-template See below): except for the [[Murder of Botham Jean]], every victim has a ''Death of X'' or a ''Shooting of X''-article. This case is not special enough to break this consistancy. [[User:Jeff5102|Jeff5102]] ([[User talk:Jeff5102|talk]]) 08:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
* '''Strong support''' if after charges/convictions are made, but Derek literally killed George Floyd. The video footage clearly demonstrates that. One person said "video" is a piece of indispensable evidence, and can be seen by many. [[User:ROBLOXGamingDavid|ROBLOXGamingDavid]] ([[User talk:ROBLOXGamingDavid|talk]]) 09:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
{{Black Lives Matter}}
* '''Oppose''' [[Death of Eric Garner]] and [[Death of Jonny Gammage]] were both asphyxiated by police, both were labeled homicide by the coroner. These 3 cases are exactly the same. Everybody seems to be ignoring these examples when they are mentioned. Are we going to change those articles as well? [[User:Dkspartan1835|Dkspartan1835]] ([[User talk:Dkspartan1835|talk]]) 09:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Change those articles as well. Homicide is synonymous with killing, let Wikipedia say things as it is. [[User:Phonehead|Phonehead]] ([[User talk:Phonehead|talk]]) 09:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
{{cob}}
{{rm bottom}}

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'{{aan}} == AfD of interest == There is a discussion at [[WP:Articles for deletion/Derek Chauvin (police officer)]] that might be of interest to editors here. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 04:42, 3 June 2020 (UTC) :{{deleted}}. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 08:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC) {{Clear}} == Missing comparison with other exceptionally cruel torturing/execution methods. == German Nazis used slow strangulation by piano wire as the most cruel death, yet many of their traitors killed this way died significantly faster than George Floyd. Middle Eastern countries which use short-drop/no-drop hanging are criticised for their cruelty, even when most executed people keep their consciousness for just 1-3 minutes. But the page on George Floyd's death mentions just murder, killing and homicide, there's not a single word on sadistict torture as of now. I think this should be fixed (preferrably in bold). → Would you like it to be done in CAPITALS as well? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/115.188.81.84|115.188.81.84]] ([[User talk:115.188.81.84#top|talk]]) 01:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> :Sticking to [[WP:NPOV]], this event cannot be ruled as torture due there being no apparent intent to harm/kill — <span style="text-shadow:red 0em 0em 0.8em">[[user:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:red">IVORK</b>]]</span> <sub>[[User talk:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:Green; font-size:x-small">Talk</b>]]</sub> 02:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) {{Clear}} == Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2020 == {{edit semi-protected|Killing of George Floyd|answered=yes}} Add in the Red Summer under See Also [[Special:Contributions/45.48.146.151|45.48.146.151]] ([[User talk:45.48.146.151|talk]]) 15:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :Why?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Please explain why this is relevant. Thanks, [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 15:43, 2 June 2020 (UTC) {{Clear}} ==Did you know nomination== {{Did you know nominations/Death of George Floyd}} For bot: <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Starship.paint|Starship.paint]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|contribs]]) 07:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> *This has to be the most ill-advised DYK nom ''ever''. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 02:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC) == Add video of Floyd in police car (link here) == {{edit semi-protected|Death of George Floyd|answered=yes}} Here's a link to a video where Floyd is in police vehicle, before being pulled out onto the pavement. Add sentence to opening description (between language about bodycams and language about Floyd's pleas) : "Another surveillance video reveals Floyd was in the police vehicle when officers repeatedly reache in and the vehicle shakes, after which Floyd is pulled out of the vehicle away from the cameras, and held down by the three officers with Chavin's knee on Floyd's neck."<ref>https://unicornriot.ninja/2020/new-footage-reveals-moments-before-george-floyds-death/</ref> [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 19:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC) [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 19:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC) {{reflist talk}} :[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Needs [[WP:RS]] to verify and we'd need a free copy of it. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 20:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC) Can't we copy it from UR_Ninja? Indie media for non-commercial use only, and Wikipedia meets their standards. They gained lots of respect as a solid source during Standing Rock, and have been working rather fearlessly for 5 years. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 22:16, 31 May 2020 (UTC) Sorry, misspelled reach and Chauvin earlier. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 22:19, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :How do you know Floyd was pulled out of the police vehicle on the right side of the vehicle (the opposite side from the side he was placed in the vehicle)? [[Special:Contributions/173.88.246.138|173.88.246.138]] ([[User talk:173.88.246.138|talk]]) 01:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC) I've seen two versions of the video, the other without a verified source. There's movement from the passenger side on the pavement, away from the sidewalk and only shoulders and heads of Chauvin and Lane are visible, while the other two are still on the sidewalk. Floyd ended up on the pavement. It's a logical conclusion. But the issue is posting the video. What's being done? [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 08:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :Wait for RS to draw the same conclusions.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :{{u|Pasdecomplot}}, the video isn't in the public domain. Only the video's copyright holder can place it into the public domain. Even if UR_Ninja is claiming copyright, we have to both 1. believe them that they actually hold that copyright and 2. see that they're offering it as free-use, which they don't seem to be -- they seem to be offering it only for noncommercial use. We've got a single frame of another video posted on the article, and that's about as far as we can go. Unless there's some single frame of this video that is a better representation of the subject of this article, which you can suggest, we can't post this video to the article. [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 14:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC) Ok, thanks. I'll follow up with UR_Ninja, or Unicorn Riot, about the public domain issue of the minor video, which does not include a better image for the article. So, if the author of the major video, from which the screen shot was made, offers their work as public domain then that too could be ...linked as a reference? Thanks. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 21:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC) == June 1 press release from Hennepin County Medical Examiner on cause of death == I have added a link to this [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf new document] to [[Death_of_George_Floyd#External_links|External links]]. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 22:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :I have added this to the article text.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&type=revision&diff=960249477&oldid=960249417] It is also being reported in the media but I am out of time now. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 23:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :Does anyone know if we'd get a full autopsy report now? I would think that the family could request and this might be revealed by the family attorneys in due course? Not too familiar with how US local governments do it. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 00:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Trump Threatens to Unleash “Vicious Dogs” on Them == * https://globalnews.ca/news/7006850/trump-george-floyd-protesters/ * https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/30/trump-secret-service-george-floyd-protesters-white-house → “To make a reference to vicious dogs is no subtle reminder to African Americans of segregationists who let dogs out on women, children and innocent people in the south,” Bowser said. * https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-claims-protesters-in-dc-risked-facing-vicious-dogs/ → Trump’s reference to “vicious dogs” potentially being sicced on protesters revisits images from the civil rights movement when marchers faced snarling police dogs and high-pressure fire hoses. Muriel Bowser, mayor of the nation’s capital, responded to the president by saying that “while he hides behind his fence afraid/alone, I stand w/ people peacefully exercising their First Amendment Right after the murder of #GeorgeFloyd & hundreds of years of institutional racism.” She also appealed for people in the District of Columbia and across the country “to exercise great restraint even while this President continues to try to divide us.” * Muriel Bowser : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPK4OBcG1-4 --[[Special:Contributions/87.170.195.12|87.170.195.12]] ([[User talk:87.170.195.12|talk]]) 02:39, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *:Well yes, seriously disturbing rhetoric. But, according to ''The Guardian'', the best source you listed, not exactly what he said. Give this some more time to jell. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 02:45, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :::Yes, “''The rhetoric that's coming out of the White House is making it worse'',” (Gov. Pritzker) “''shameful, really truly shameful''.” (Gov. Cuomo ) → https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/politics/trump-governors.html Trump saying “''I am your law and order president''” (law and order = code word for racism since Nixon) and threatening to deploy military nationwide, tear-gassing peaceful protesters outside White House so he can walk to St. John's Church - where he has rarely ventured since taking office - and brandish a Bible like [[Luis Camacho]] 2019 in Bolivia. --[[Special:Contributions/217.234.77.84|217.234.77.84]] ([[User talk:217.234.77.84|talk]]) 05:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Is this standard police procedure? == Can some information be gained as to whether it is normal for police to arrest a person who uses a counterfeit bill to buy something or deposit it in a bank? Firstly, the bill in question was relatively modest, $20.00. Secondly, is it the standard practice of police to take the word and identification of a store clerk that said bill is indeed counterfeit? Thirdly, I know from personal experience that just because someone uses a counterfeit bill that doesn’t necessarily mean that he or she was aware of it let alone actually printed it. I once took a cash deposit to our company’s bank and was informed by the teller that a $100 bill a customer gave to us was counterfeit. (In truth, I have no idea if that was true or not. It looked fine to me.) The bank didn’t call the police on me, thankfully. This whole thing seems peculiar to me and ought to scare all of us as anyone could be given a counterfeit bill and innocently attempt to use it elsewhere. So is this standard police practice regardless of the race of the alleged culprit? Or was something else going on regarding Mr. Floyd? Thank you.[[User:HistoryBuff14|HistoryBuff14]] ([[User talk:HistoryBuff14|talk]]) 20:11, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :I'm sorry, but somehow when I added a new section a link provided by the editor just before me got under my post and away from his or hers. I attempted to correct this, but when I clicked on edit the link doesn't appear at all so I couldn't cut and paste it back where it belongs.[[User:HistoryBuff14|HistoryBuff14]] ([[User talk:HistoryBuff14|talk]]) 20:15, 31 May 2020 (UTC) ::I agree with you about this. I had a similar experience once, where a deposit I was making included a $10 bill that the bank said was counterfeit. All that happened was that the bank kept the bill, and the organization whose money I was depositing was out the $10. This was clearly not a situation that called for an arrest, and my hunch is that you or I would not have been arrested in similar circumstances. But this is all just your and my opinion, [[WP:Original research]], and can't go into the article unless Reliable Sources start saying it. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 20:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :::@MelanieN, my favorite admininstrator, we meet again! I agree, but it just pains me to think that the death of Mr. Floyd and the destruction that has followed in its wake was caused by such a piddling thing as this. I was hoping that someone would know if this was standard operating procedure. In California, the police generally don’t arrest people for shoplifting unless the amount taken is over a certain amount far greater than twenty dollars. It would seem logical to me that at most a citation be issued so that the police could ascertain if there had been more instances of this by a singular individual and then, if so, investigate the person for actual counterfeiting or buying counterfeit money from someone else at, of course, a steep discount to the face value. As I said, this could happen to anyone as you and I can attest to. By the way, I assume it was you who fixed the errant link issue. This has happened to me before for reasons I have no idea of. Thanks for that as well as your input. I hope you and yours have been well during this current health crisis. Best wishes, as always.[[User:HistoryBuff14|HistoryBuff14]] ([[User talk:HistoryBuff14|talk]]) 21:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :When RS discus this so can we.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::The ''Daily Mail'' [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8368215/George-Floyd-911-call-Store-clerk-claims-awfully-drunk-not-control-himself.html has a story], but I don't think that counts as an RS. -- [[User:Netwalker3|Netwalker3]] ([[User talk:Netwalker3|talk]]) 07:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Darnella Frazier video == While multiple sources say she livestreamed the video on Facebook, it seems like she uploaded it a couple hours later. Should we correct this?[[User:The lorax|The lorax]] ([[User talk:The lorax|talk]]) 03:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :The Devil is in the details. Are sources retracting their original stories? How many sources still say live streaming and how many say several hours later? Are there other data bearing on this? If there is a conflict among sources, you could cite sources for each version. If there is a clear consensus that the original reports were incorrect, then the claim should be corrected. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 03:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC) The video was not live-streamed confirmed that from her Facebook page[[User:Brain7days|Olatunde Brain]] ([[User talk:Brain7days|talk]]) 09:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Date of birth == What was the Date of birth of George Floyd? [[User:GrimRob|GrimRob]] ([[User talk:GrimRob|talk]]) 22:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :From screenshots of previous convictions found on several news sites, 14 October 1973. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 23:39, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::I mention "several news sites" and allude to previous convictions only because I don't wish to cite The Daily Mail, unless I really have to. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 23:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :::We have anew thread on this below.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 09:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == "Death of George Floyd" category == Per the closing of the Move discussion, I have posted a Category Move discussion for [[:Category:Death of George Floyd]]. Others who contributed to the Move discussion (on both sides) may wish to contribute to the category discussion. The discussion is [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_June_2#Category:Death_of_George_Floyd|here]].--[[User:Mike Selinker|Mike Selinker]] ([[User talk:Mike Selinker|talk]]) 12:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)'
New page wikitext, after the edit (new_wikitext)
'{{aan}} == AfD of interest == There is a discussion at [[WP:Articles for deletion/Derek Chauvin (police officer)]] that might be of interest to editors here. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 04:42, 3 June 2020 (UTC) :{{deleted}}. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 08:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC) {{Clear}} == Missing comparison with other exceptionally cruel torturing/execution methods. == German Nazis used slow strangulation by piano wire as the most cruel death, yet many of their traitors killed this way died significantly faster than George Floyd. Middle Eastern countries which use short-drop/no-drop hanging are criticised for their cruelty, even when most executed people keep their consciousness for just 1-3 minutes. But the page on George Floyd's death mentions just murder, killing and homicide, there's not a single word on sadistict torture as of now. I think this should be fixed (preferrably in bold). → Would you like it to be done in CAPITALS as well? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/115.188.81.84|115.188.81.84]] ([[User talk:115.188.81.84#top|talk]]) 01:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> :Sticking to [[WP:NPOV]], this event cannot be ruled as torture due there being no apparent intent to harm/kill — <span style="text-shadow:red 0em 0em 0.8em">[[user:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:red">IVORK</b>]]</span> <sub>[[User talk:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:Green; font-size:x-small">Talk</b>]]</sub> 02:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) {{Clear}} == Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2020 == {{edit semi-protected|Killing of George Floyd|answered=yes}} Add in the Red Summer under See Also [[Special:Contributions/45.48.146.151|45.48.146.151]] ([[User talk:45.48.146.151|talk]]) 15:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :Why?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Please explain why this is relevant. Thanks, [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 15:43, 2 June 2020 (UTC) {{Clear}} ==Did you know nomination== {{Did you know nominations/Death of George Floyd}} For bot: <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Starship.paint|Starship.paint]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|contribs]]) 07:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> *This has to be the most ill-advised DYK nom ''ever''. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 02:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC) == Add video of Floyd in police car (link here) == {{edit semi-protected|Death of George Floyd|answered=yes}} Here's a link to a video where Floyd is in police vehicle, before being pulled out onto the pavement. Add sentence to opening description (between language about bodycams and language about Floyd's pleas) : "Another surveillance video reveals Floyd was in the police vehicle when officers repeatedly reache in and the vehicle shakes, after which Floyd is pulled out of the vehicle away from the cameras, and held down by the three officers with Chavin's knee on Floyd's neck."<ref>https://unicornriot.ninja/2020/new-footage-reveals-moments-before-george-floyds-death/</ref> [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 19:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC) [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 19:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC) {{reflist talk}} :[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Needs [[WP:RS]] to verify and we'd need a free copy of it. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 20:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC) Can't we copy it from UR_Ninja? Indie media for non-commercial use only, and Wikipedia meets their standards. They gained lots of respect as a solid source during Standing Rock, and have been working rather fearlessly for 5 years. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 22:16, 31 May 2020 (UTC) Sorry, misspelled reach and Chauvin earlier. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 22:19, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :How do you know Floyd was pulled out of the police vehicle on the right side of the vehicle (the opposite side from the side he was placed in the vehicle)? [[Special:Contributions/173.88.246.138|173.88.246.138]] ([[User talk:173.88.246.138|talk]]) 01:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC) I've seen two versions of the video, the other without a verified source. There's movement from the passenger side on the pavement, away from the sidewalk and only shoulders and heads of Chauvin and Lane are visible, while the other two are still on the sidewalk. Floyd ended up on the pavement. It's a logical conclusion. But the issue is posting the video. What's being done? [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 08:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :Wait for RS to draw the same conclusions.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :{{u|Pasdecomplot}}, the video isn't in the public domain. Only the video's copyright holder can place it into the public domain. Even if UR_Ninja is claiming copyright, we have to both 1. believe them that they actually hold that copyright and 2. see that they're offering it as free-use, which they don't seem to be -- they seem to be offering it only for noncommercial use. We've got a single frame of another video posted on the article, and that's about as far as we can go. Unless there's some single frame of this video that is a better representation of the subject of this article, which you can suggest, we can't post this video to the article. [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 14:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC) Ok, thanks. I'll follow up with UR_Ninja, or Unicorn Riot, about the public domain issue of the minor video, which does not include a better image for the article. So, if the author of the major video, from which the screen shot was made, offers their work as public domain then that too could be ...linked as a reference? Thanks. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 21:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC) == June 1 press release from Hennepin County Medical Examiner on cause of death == I have added a link to this [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf new document] to [[Death_of_George_Floyd#External_links|External links]]. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 22:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :I have added this to the article text.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&type=revision&diff=960249477&oldid=960249417] It is also being reported in the media but I am out of time now. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 23:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :Does anyone know if we'd get a full autopsy report now? I would think that the family could request and this might be revealed by the family attorneys in due course? Not too familiar with how US local governments do it. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 00:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Trump Threatens to Unleash “Vicious Dogs” on Them == * https://globalnews.ca/news/7006850/trump-george-floyd-protesters/ * https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/30/trump-secret-service-george-floyd-protesters-white-house → “To make a reference to vicious dogs is no subtle reminder to African Americans of segregationists who let dogs out on women, children and innocent people in the south,” Bowser said. * https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-claims-protesters-in-dc-risked-facing-vicious-dogs/ → Trump’s reference to “vicious dogs” potentially being sicced on protesters revisits images from the civil rights movement when marchers faced snarling police dogs and high-pressure fire hoses. Muriel Bowser, mayor of the nation’s capital, responded to the president by saying that “while he hides behind his fence afraid/alone, I stand w/ people peacefully exercising their First Amendment Right after the murder of #GeorgeFloyd & hundreds of years of institutional racism.” She also appealed for people in the District of Columbia and across the country “to exercise great restraint even while this President continues to try to divide us.” * Muriel Bowser : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPK4OBcG1-4 --[[Special:Contributions/87.170.195.12|87.170.195.12]] ([[User talk:87.170.195.12|talk]]) 02:39, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *:Well yes, seriously disturbing rhetoric. But, according to ''The Guardian'', the best source you listed, not exactly what he said. Give this some more time to jell. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 02:45, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :::Yes, “''The rhetoric that's coming out of the White House is making it worse'',” (Gov. Pritzker) “''shameful, really truly shameful''.” (Gov. Cuomo ) → https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/politics/trump-governors.html Trump saying “''I am your law and order president''” (law and order = code word for racism since Nixon) and threatening to deploy military nationwide, tear-gassing peaceful protesters outside White House so he can walk to St. John's Church - where he has rarely ventured since taking office - and brandish a Bible like [[Luis Camacho]] 2019 in Bolivia. --[[Special:Contributions/217.234.77.84|217.234.77.84]] ([[User talk:217.234.77.84|talk]]) 05:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Is this standard police procedure? == Can some information be gained as to whether it is normal for police to arrest a person who uses a counterfeit bill to buy something or deposit it in a bank? Firstly, the bill in question was relatively modest, $20.00. Secondly, is it the standard practice of police to take the word and identification of a store clerk that said bill is indeed counterfeit? Thirdly, I know from personal experience that just because someone uses a counterfeit bill that doesn’t necessarily mean that he or she was aware of it let alone actually printed it. I once took a cash deposit to our company’s bank and was informed by the teller that a $100 bill a customer gave to us was counterfeit. (In truth, I have no idea if that was true or not. It looked fine to me.) The bank didn’t call the police on me, thankfully. This whole thing seems peculiar to me and ought to scare all of us as anyone could be given a counterfeit bill and innocently attempt to use it elsewhere. So is this standard police practice regardless of the race of the alleged culprit? Or was something else going on regarding Mr. Floyd? Thank you.[[User:HistoryBuff14|HistoryBuff14]] ([[User talk:HistoryBuff14|talk]]) 20:11, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :I'm sorry, but somehow when I added a new section a link provided by the editor just before me got under my post and away from his or hers. I attempted to correct this, but when I clicked on edit the link doesn't appear at all so I couldn't cut and paste it back where it belongs.[[User:HistoryBuff14|HistoryBuff14]] ([[User talk:HistoryBuff14|talk]]) 20:15, 31 May 2020 (UTC) ::I agree with you about this. I had a similar experience once, where a deposit I was making included a $10 bill that the bank said was counterfeit. All that happened was that the bank kept the bill, and the organization whose money I was depositing was out the $10. This was clearly not a situation that called for an arrest, and my hunch is that you or I would not have been arrested in similar circumstances. But this is all just your and my opinion, [[WP:Original research]], and can't go into the article unless Reliable Sources start saying it. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 20:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :::@MelanieN, my favorite admininstrator, we meet again! I agree, but it just pains me to think that the death of Mr. Floyd and the destruction that has followed in its wake was caused by such a piddling thing as this. I was hoping that someone would know if this was standard operating procedure. In California, the police generally don’t arrest people for shoplifting unless the amount taken is over a certain amount far greater than twenty dollars. It would seem logical to me that at most a citation be issued so that the police could ascertain if there had been more instances of this by a singular individual and then, if so, investigate the person for actual counterfeiting or buying counterfeit money from someone else at, of course, a steep discount to the face value. As I said, this could happen to anyone as you and I can attest to. By the way, I assume it was you who fixed the errant link issue. This has happened to me before for reasons I have no idea of. Thanks for that as well as your input. I hope you and yours have been well during this current health crisis. Best wishes, as always.[[User:HistoryBuff14|HistoryBuff14]] ([[User talk:HistoryBuff14|talk]]) 21:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :When RS discus this so can we.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::The ''Daily Mail'' [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8368215/George-Floyd-911-call-Store-clerk-claims-awfully-drunk-not-control-himself.html has a story], but I don't think that counts as an RS. -- [[User:Netwalker3|Netwalker3]] ([[User talk:Netwalker3|talk]]) 07:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Darnella Frazier video == While multiple sources say she livestreamed the video on Facebook, it seems like she uploaded it a couple hours later. Should we correct this?[[User:The lorax|The lorax]] ([[User talk:The lorax|talk]]) 03:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :The Devil is in the details. Are sources retracting their original stories? How many sources still say live streaming and how many say several hours later? Are there other data bearing on this? If there is a conflict among sources, you could cite sources for each version. If there is a clear consensus that the original reports were incorrect, then the claim should be corrected. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 03:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC) The video was not live-streamed confirmed that from her Facebook page[[User:Brain7days|Olatunde Brain]] ([[User talk:Brain7days|talk]]) 09:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Date of birth == What was the Date of birth of George Floyd? [[User:GrimRob|GrimRob]] ([[User talk:GrimRob|talk]]) 22:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :From screenshots of previous convictions found on several news sites, 14 October 1973. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 23:39, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::I mention "several news sites" and allude to previous convictions only because I don't wish to cite The Daily Mail, unless I really have to. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 23:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :::We have anew thread on this below.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 09:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == "Death of George Floyd" category == Per the closing of the Move discussion, I have posted a Category Move discussion for [[:Category:Death of George Floyd]]. Others who contributed to the Move discussion (on both sides) may wish to contribute to the category discussion. The discussion is [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_June_2#Category:Death_of_George_Floyd|here]].--[[User:Mike Selinker|Mike Selinker]] ([[User talk:Mike Selinker|talk]]) 12:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Hand In Pocket -- Not == Current content: "Chauvin is seen on video applying pressure with his knee to Floyd's neck while his hand is in his pocket" Chauvin's left hand is wearing a black glove, and his pants are also black. It may appear to many that his hand is in a pocket. But, on close watching of the entire raw video from bystander smartphone (in the first few seconds, for example)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMN35n4UVSA&bpctr=1591106067 [Video<nowiki>]</nowiki>], it is clear to me that Chauvin's left hand is in a fist and resting on his upper thigh. I have heard several commentaries that cite the hand in pocket while lamenting an apparent casual demeanor of this officer. This inaccuracy should be corrected. [[User:Clutterslave|Clutterslave]] ([[User talk:Clutterslave|talk]]) 14:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :{{fixed}}. I have added this fact to the article, with a citation to the video. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 14:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == How is the new autopsy independent when the pathologists were hired by the deceased relatives? == First it says "On May 30, Floyd's family's legal team confirmed that they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson to conduct an autopsy.", and then "On May 31, the independent autopsy was conducted.". How is the autopsy independent? By that logic, the first autopsy was also independent. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Anetherion|contribs]]) 10:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> :Dr. Wlilson is the director of autopsy and forensic services at the University of Michigan Medical School. That's independent. The county medical examiner is not independent as they work with the police. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 10:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::"they had hired" as in they were paid to do that. How can you say that is independent? For it to be truly independent, it would have to be performed and paid for by a third party, unrelated to the whole ordeal. [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion|talk]]) 10:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::I would agree, neither are independent.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::Independent is used in the sources and has been used in such cases as long as I can remember. The Michigan Medical School is independent, unless it can be shown that they are paid to lie. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::::"they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson", they had hired them personally, how is their workplace relevant? 1.) "sources" are not always correct, 2.) it being that way "for as long as you can remember" still does not mean it is the right way. Like I wrote above, unless it is conducted and paid for by a third party, it is NOT independent. [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion|talk]]) 11:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::::We go by sourcing, not by personal opinion of editors. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 11:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :Its all rather academic as the second "official" autopsy has called homicide as well.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :I do agree that "independent" is probably the wrong word for it. By definition, the autopsy comes from an interested party. A "private autopsy" was used by the BBC makes more sense, imho. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 12:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::Wikipedia goes by what the majority of sources call it. Try to understand that when the media speaks of an independent autopsy, they just mean a private autopsy independent of the official autopsy conducted by the jurisdiction's coroner, and not independent of an interested party who is paying for it. If there's a concern that this Wikipedia article is misleading the reader, we can ameliorate that by using expanded language like "an independent autopsy paid for by Floyd's family," or even "an independent private autopsy" with cites to both descriptions from the media. The only other thing I would note here is that under state law, the county medical examiner is a "neutral and independent office and is separate and distinct from any prosecutorial authority or law enforcement agency," so we wouldn't say that they aren't independent because they "work with the police," but calling the official autopsy "independent" in the article would probably just cause confusion. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::If the sourcing says "independent", then that's what the article should say. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 12:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::The law may state that medical examiners must be “neutral and independent”; but there have been scandals related to medical examiner results when police are involved. That’s one reason some people pay for independent autopsies. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 13:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::::Sure, there have been scandals in the past, this is why legislatures have added those laws to put ethics restrictions in place. My only point there was that we can't imply here that the county medical examiner "works with the police." [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::Update: I just noticed that someone swapped out the word "independent" with "private" 30 minutes ago, so I've added "independent" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_George_Floyd&type=revision&diff=960346944&oldid=960346782 back to the lead], such that it reads "An independent private autopsy." At this point, I think it would be preferable to just include both words rather than editors pushing to have their preferred word used while trying to exclude the other. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::Private is an odd word since the results are public and the autopsy was performed by a public school. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 13:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::::LOL, which in the UK mean a private school. But it is off as whilst it was privately funded it was not "private".[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::::What we've got going on here is a conflation of terms. Whether or not a school is public or private is a different concept (in use of terms) in relation to whether an autopsy was an official autopsy (conducted by the authorities) versus a private autopsy (conducted by anyone else). [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::::Private has many different senses; we shouldn't conflate them. To clarify the claim "the autopsy was performed by a public school". Are we sure the autopsy was performed by the University of Michigan? The media reports seem to suggest that Dr Baden and Dr Wilson were hired by Floyd's family's attorneys. Do we know it was done in the official capacity as faculty members of University of Michigan? Or that it was done pro bono (see: "hire" in numerous news outlets). For example, I might hire a moonlighting police officer to bodyguard me; it would make little sense to claim that my bodyguarding needs are met by a "public body". [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 14:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC) OK, as others have said, lets go with what RS say, and not our own suppositions.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == George Floyd History == Why is there nothing in the GEORGE FLOYD bio section of this article about his past criminal history? He was convicted of multiple things, most notably ARMED ROBBERY which is pretty significant. Why is he presented in an incomplete manner. All across Wikipedia in the personal section OF ANYONE i HAVE EVEN LOOKED UP THERE IS FULL DISCLOSURE, ESPECIALLY ABOUT ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH BREAKING THE LAW. I think that there is deliberate omission. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:CiaSmi64|CiaSmi64]] ([[User talk:CiaSmi64#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CiaSmi64|contribs]]) 18:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> :I'm sorry, but the reason that it's omitted is because this is about the ''death'' of George Floyd, not ''about'' George Floyd. Thanks, <span style="font-family:Avenir">[[User:Thanoscar21|'''Thanoscar21''']]<sub>[[User talk:Thanoscar21|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Thanoscar21|contribs]]</sub></span> 18:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :::Then why is there information about his athletic accomplishments? [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 18:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 ::::There is an RfC about it above [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Death_of_George_Floyd#RFC_on_Floyd's_criminal_past]. And of course good RS specifically ''about his death'', such as [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-who-was-he-his-friends-words this article in Guardian] and many others, do mention this episode. ''We should significantly expand his biography section and include this info''. As you noted, there is no logic to selectively hide any important biographic information. We just say what RS say ''on this subject''. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 18:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :::::I'll just add that BBC has also acknowledged this aspect of Floyd's past (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936). [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 19:03, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 ::::::Someone will probably remove it. I would wait until the closing of the RfC. But just to clarify, according to your BBC source, ::::::{{Quotation2|His life then took a different turn, with a string of arrests for theft and drug possession culminating in an armed robbery charge in 2007, for which he was sentenced to five years in prison. He became involved in his local ministry, Resurrection Houston, after his release and was intent on making changes in himself and his neighbourhood, says Mr Lillard. "While he was embracing his own life change, he was looking around at his community" ...}} ::::::This is an important info to include if anyone wants to understand what kind of person he was. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :::::::{{u|My very best wishes}}, is what kind of person he was important to understanding this incident? [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 19:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Well, this is all in the BBC source. One should just read it further: ''"A video of Floyd decrying gun violence, believed to be filmed in 2017, has circulated on social media, in which he implored young people to "come home". His family told the Houston Chronicle he moved to Minnesota in 2018 after being encouraged by friends through a Christian work programme.'' Christopher Harris, a friend and former classmate, told US media Mr Floyd "was looking to start over fresh, a new beginning". "He was happy with the change he was making," he added.'' ::::::::So, basically, this is someone who was capable to understand his mistakes and make life better for himself and others. This is highly commendable. But without telling that he made mistakes, there is no real person, there is no character. That's why journalists from Guardian, BBC, and other sources described it. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :::::::::Yes, commendable, but the question I think was "how is that relevant with regards to his death?" Did any of that contribute to his death? Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 14:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC) =="Chauvin put his full body weight on Floyd's neck"== {{ping|Shadybabs}} You've added "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=960178183&oldid=960176432 Chauvin put his full body weight onto Floyd's neck]" directly into the lead, based on a comment in a local [[City Pages]] article, not stated in any mainstream reliable sources. That's materially misleading and would have only been possible if Chauvin had knelt with both of his knees on Floyd's neck (to put his full body weight on it). As seen in the video he has one knee on the pavement and one knee on Floyd; you have to sort out sources for NPOV, verfiability, and in this case, WP:WEIGHT (no pun intended; this is not funny stuff). Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 14:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :I agree. I've tagged it. If someone can't produce better sources, it will be removed. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 15:06, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :While I strongly believe that the article should address all aspects of the police misconduct, it should do so accurately, and should not use other wiki pages as sources. Either cite an external source and reword or remove. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 15:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :It would also have been possible if he had managed to balance himself on only one knee and having his other leg off the ground, but that obviously didn't happen either. A physical impossibility definitely needs good sources. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 16:07, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::Thanks for tagging. Circling back just now, I see another editor has conformed the text to a better source [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=960197776&oldid=960197363 as seen here], so the problem is resolved. I was initially drawn to this issue because the original editor added the unsourced content "''Chauvin would continue to forcefully grind his bodyweight directly onto Floyd's neck as he struggled''" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=959817905&oldid=959817111 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=959821531 here] two days ago. Editors should not be making stuff up like that, especially with people's perceptions inflamed right now. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) :::The second autopsy is saying asphyxiation.[https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html] ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 19:42, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :In general, that's not exactly true. You could put 90 percent of your weight on one knee, with the other knee positioned just for balance. But sourcing is needed. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 11:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::90% is not "full body weight", but the thrust here is that an editor was seeking to characterize the event from their POV, then looking for a source to fit that POV. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::Yes. But if you're only using the second knee for balance, it could be well above 50 percent. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 14:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC) == Add Chauvin maces witness (on video) == {{edit semi-protected|Killing of George Floyd|answered=yes}} Since links to FB video are now added in article, can we add the macing incident to Arrest and Death/Timeline ? At 4:32 in video, "Chauvin grabs a canister from his belt and sprays towards a witness approaching Floyd, and another witness says 'He just got maced'. Chauvin later returns canister to belt.(at 4:55) [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 14:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :{{not done}} The link in question is to the primary source without commentary and accompanies the text talking about the primary source being created. What you want is [[WP:OR|original research]], i.e. using the same primary source to add a fact ("witness got maced by Chauvin") which the source does not support (you cannot actually see that). As such, we need a [[WP:RS|reliable]] [[WP:PSTS|secondary source]] that actually says so. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 14:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Test [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 15:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC) But the source supports these facts. The actions are audible and visible: Chauvin unclips canister from belt, moves hand towards sidewalk, audio sound of spraying noise commences, Chauvin continues to hold canister while kneeing Floyd's neck, then puts canister back on belt. Why would a secondary source be necessary? [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 15:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :If so then why have no RS noticed and commented on it?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Very good question. I wonder about it as well. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :I think that ends this, as that is virtually an admission this is just your interpretation.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Maybe... the macing incident can be interpreted by legal professionals as evidence of an intent to kill, and creates a possible liability issue for a published secondary source... [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Not an admission to an interpretation. Sorry. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :See "At one point Chauvin reached for his mace to threaten the bystanders while continuing to kneel on the man."[https://unicornriot.ninja/2020/minneapolis-police-murder-handcuffed-man-with-neck-kneel/] [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 16:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::Not sure that is an RS, certainly not for a [[wp:blp]].[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::[[Unicorn Riot]] is definitely not an RS [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC) See "Chauvin keeps his knee pressed into Floyd’s neck and Floyd stops talking. About four minutes into the video, Floyd becomes unresponsive. Bystanders approach Chauvin and the officer draws something, causing one of the people off-camera to say, “He’s got mace.”"[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/26/george-floyd-minneapolis-police-officers-fired-after-public-backlash/5263193002/] [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 16:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :That would be barley enough to say "and one person said he had drawn a mace can", in no way does it support "Chauvin maces witness" or even" Chauvin drew a maces can".[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ::I made [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_George_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=960381183 this change]. There could be more sources that discuss it. [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 17:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :::I will not revert it, even thought I said it is barely enough to pass muster (see [[wp:unue]]). I would suggest finding a few more sources before someone else does.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC) {{Clear}} == What was Chauvin's endgame? == {{atopy | status = | result = [[WP:NOTFORUM]] for speculation. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 12:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC) }} Perhaps editors familiar with law enforcement can answer this question. Had Floyd not expired, when would Chauvin have released his knee from Floyd? Was he waiting for backup, or Floyd to tap out, or when he had established his "superiority"? What typically happens in such a situation when death is not the outcome? Thanks, [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 10:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC) :We are not a general forum to discuss this topic.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC) ::What is meant by {{tq|"tap out"}}? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:14, 4 June 2020 (UTC) :::Submission. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 11:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC) ::::Yes, but "submission" was present. Submission was expressed verbally by George Floyd. And submission prevails when handcuffed behind one's back, prone, face down, surrounded by police officers. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC) ::::[https://www.ctinsider.com/local/greenwichtime/article/The-Mother-Lode-As-he-lay-dying-George-Floyd-15315226.php Floyd called out to the police, addressing Chauvin with “Sir” and “Please officer, I can’t breathe.” He called out to the crowd of people watching: “They gon’ kill me.” But there was one call that will not stop echoing in my head, and that’s the call to his mother. “I can’t move … mama … mama … I can’t.”] This constitutes verbal "submission". [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC) :::::Yes, we know all that. My question is, had the ambulance not been called and had he not died, how might the situation have been resolved? [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 11:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC) ::::::{{tq|"how might the situation have been resolved?"}} I don't know. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will weigh in. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC) :::::::Let's not speculate. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:59, 4 June 2020 (UTC) ::::::::I thought the question would depend on the consequences of suspicion of attempted use of counterfeit currency, or something like that. That would be a legal question. I happen to be ignorant of the topic. Would arrest ensue? Would a court appearance be required? Etc. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 12:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC) {{abot}} == Requested move 27 May 2020 == {{rm top|'''moved'''. I'm choosing to expedite this move rather than wait the full 7 days due to sizable interest and participation. I note that many of those opposing the move did so ''before'' the Hennepin County Medical Examiner had concluded that the death was a homicide. As such and in light of this key argument, I am deeming there being sufficient consensus for moving the title. It is important to note that this assessment on my part was based on the strength of the arguments, not the aggregate tally. It is also important to mention that this expedited close was not a [[WP:SNOW]] close. While this was a lively debate, I don't think prolonging it is likely to change the outcome or would be a benefit for the project. I thank the overwhelming majority of participants for their well-thought-out arguments as well as for their civil disposition. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 11:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC) :It's been suggested that I expand on my evaluation of the arguments advanced in this discussion. With respect to [[WP:COMMONNAME]], the mention by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] has been mixed, so that argument was not really weighed one way or the other in my evaluation. With respect to [[WP:BLPCRIME]], as one participant who has changed their preference from oppose to support has noted: killing is not necessarily a crime. The fact is that many participants who opposed asked to wait for the ME report, which, as mentioned, has since deemed the death to be a homicide. The arguments advanced in the discussion whose strength was given most weight in this close neither concluded that this homicide was a ''murder'' nor that it was a ''justifiable homicide.'' It was rather overwhelmingly agreed that that is a matter for the courts to decide. Those arguments only posited that, for now, the the title should reflect the official finding by the ME. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 13:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)}} [[:Death of George Floyd]] → {{no redirect|Killing of George Floyd}} – While murder isn't appropriate for an ongoing investigation, "killing" seems an appropriate description of events, and is backed up by a reliable source.<ref>{{Cite news|last=Goyette|first=Jared|date=2020-05-27|title=Hundreds demand justice in Minneapolis after police killing of George Floyd|language=en-GB|work=The Guardian|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/george-floyd-killing-minneapolis-protest-police|access-date=2020-05-27|issn=0261-3077}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news|last=Sabur|first=Rozina|date=2020-05-26|title=George Floyd: Protests erupt in Minneapolis after death of black man pinned down by white police officer|language=en-GB|work=The Telegraph|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/26/fbi-investigate-death-black-man-pinned-white-police-officer/|access-date=2020-05-27|issn=0307-1235}}</ref> On the other hand, other sources call it a "death".<ref>{{Cite news|date=2020-05-27|title=Death of US black man in custody sparks clashes|language=en-GB|work=BBC News|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097|access-date=2020-05-27}}</ref> As such, I'm <s>'''neutral'''</s> myself, but think that a discussion is appropriate. {{reftalk}} – [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC) :: Pinging participants in "murder" section - {{ping|Jorge1777|Starship.paint|AzureCitizen|Ergo Sum}}. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC) {{cot|Discussion collapsed to aid readability of page}} ===Survey=== ====First convenience section==== * '''Oppose''' - wait for the autopsy results so that we know whether or not he was killed. [[User:Jim Michael|Jim Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim Michael|talk]]) 19:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC) * <s>'''Wait for autopsy''' per above.</s> [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 20:16, 27 May 2020 (UTC) ** <s>'''Oppose''' Due to the preliminary autopsy finding that strangulation and asphyxiation were not the cause of death, I think we must let a jury decide whether this was a killing or not. Less would be a plain BLP violation against the accused at this time. I am open to changing this if more information comes available.</s> [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) Struck due to both reports terming this a homicide. 05:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ** '''Comment''' Because of the incredibly bad treatment of Floyd I am genuinely sorry to have to make this [[WP:BLP]] (particularly [[WP:BLPCRIME]] "presumed innocent") and [[WP:RS]], [[WP:NPOV]] ([[WP:DUE]]) policy argument, but I need to make another point. *:As of 22:29, 30 May 2020 (you may need to click on "tools" on Google to see the tally): *:*Google news search results in title over past 24 hours for "killing of george floyd": [https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22killing+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 175] (and many of these refer to protests, speaking to the intent of the protests) *:*Google news search results in title over past 24 hours for "death of george floyd": [https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22death+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 1410] *:We go by reliable sources most of all, and here it is clear the reliable sources are cautiously calling this a death. Many of the arguments below are based on emotion and [[WP:OR]] of the video. Again I am truly sorry to have to take the position. I do not want to take it. I am forced to take this position by policy. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 22:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *:*I understand why we go by reliable sources. But if common sense tells us that it is a killing, it is a killing no matter what reliable sources are calling it. We wouldn't say the sky is purple just because reliable sources say so. I hope this isn't inappropriate, but I would cautiously say [[WP:IAR]] supports my point. This is an encyclopedia, but it also does not simply repeat what sources say with no further examination. I believe if common sense leads us to contradict what sources are saying, that is okay. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 01:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *::{{u|DIYeditor}}, I don't mean to badger, but CNN is reporting that the independent autopsy requested by Mr Floyd's family has found that the death was a homicide.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref> *::[[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 20:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *::{{u|DIYeditor}}, since your main objection to the move is now void, with the newly published independent autopsy report, I hope you sincerely consider changing your vote. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *:::{{u|Bubka42}} and {{u|Bellezzasolo}}, my tally of the overwhelming use of "death" in Google news articles still stands as of now, please refer to the links I gave above. I will consider again whether we should simply call a spade a spade in this case and go with "killing" but I have trouble seeing how we can ignore the cautious phrasing of the overwhelming majority of news articles on this topic (assuming my test for that is valid). [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 04:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *:::'''Explain striking !vote''': I will go ahead and stick to what I originally said which was wait for autopsy. I have reservations about deviating from the phrasing used in most reliable sources, but {{u|Darouet}} has conflicting information, and most of all I don't want to be "that guy" who opposed calling a killing a killing. Killing someone isn't in and of itself a crime so we are not accusing anyone of having committed a crime. Two autopsies say homicide. So I am leaving this as a "comment" with no !vote. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 06:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' Consistency, Articles about similar events are called death not murder or killing. Unless convicted or murder no need to change,[[User:Life200BC|Life200BC]] ([[User talk:Life200BC|talk]]) 20:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC) *: This is demonstrably untrue. [[:Category:Deaths by person in the United States]] contains 212 articles with titles referring to "murder", another two referring to "killing" and a further 31 referring to "shooting" and 11 to "assassination" (which obviously aren't alleged in this case), while only 81 (including this one) refer to "death", of which many of the deaths are not killings of any sort. It is fair to question whether the burden of proof that this death was a killing has yet been met to [[WP:BLP]] standards but as soon as the cause of death is established to such standards it is absolutely consistent to refer to it as a killing in the title, if not specifying the type of killing. [[User:Bigbluefish|Bigbluefish]] ([[User talk:Bigbluefish|talk]]) 17:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now'''. Per DIYeditor, definitively describing this as a "killing" would be premature until the medical examiner/coroner's report says so. [[User:Ergo Sum|'''<span style="color:#0645AD">Ergo Sum</span>''']] 21:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC) *''' Oppose '''- Death is the most neutral language, and should be used until more information is available. --[[User:Jax 0677|Jax 0677]] ([[User talk:Jax 0677|talk]]) 21:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. "Death of" is the most appropriate term, at least for the time being. If the officer is charged or convicted at a future date, we can reassess. Though it certainly seems likely that he died as a result of the officer's actions, we don't technically know what he died from until we get the full autopsy report. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 21:50, 27 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' — "Killing of..." is commonly used by the media [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/27/us/lebron-james-george-floyd-spt-trnd/index.html][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/george-floyd-killing-minneapolis-protest-police][https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-pictures/minneapolis-george-floyd-protest-police-killing-photos-1005678/]. This isn't a proposal to rename the article to "Murder of..." and there's no controversy about why he died in a general sense, even before a pathology report is released. For this reason the name change doesn't depend on whether an officer has been charged with murder or what the specific physiological cause of death was: you can die in many ways when someone is kneeling on your neck. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 22:05, 27 May 2020 (UTC) ::After some time has passed, I find that the case for moving is stronger than before: ::'''[[WP:RS]]''' — The [[LexisNexis|NexisUni]] database reports over 10,000 newspaper articles in the last week describing George Floyd as having been killed (accounting for duplicates). High quality sources like the [[BBC]] and the ''[[The New York Times]]'' describe the death as a killing, e.g. BBC: {{tq|Protesters have clashed with police in cities across the US over the '''killing''' of an unarmed African-American man at the hands of officers in Minneapolis}}[https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52857334]; ''NYT'': {{tq|8 Minutes and 46 Seconds: How George Floyd Was '''Killed''' in Police Custody}} [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-investigation.html]. While thousands of sources describe Floyd as having been killed, I can find only two dubious sources arguing he may not have been [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-died-police-restraint-combined-health/][https://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/what-will-investigators-look-for-in-the-death-of-george-floyd-J7t5d8sJDN5wPQH1/]. ::'''[[WP:NPOVTITLE]]''' — As mentioned by many editors here, the term "death of..." is a [[WP:WEASEL]] phrase that obscures Floyd's killing, and by implying the possibility of natural death is non-neutral. As pointed out below, in the [[Oxford English Dictionary|English language]] "killing" does not imply intent to kill and is not equivalent to murder: {{tq|"...any means or cause which puts an end to life...}}" The move would therefore result in a more neutral title. ::'''[[WP:NAMINGCRITERIA]]''' In addition to being supported by reliable sources, the title "Killing of George Floyd" meets every one of our naming criteria, including [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]], [[WP:NATURALNESS]] and [[WP:CONCISE]]. "Killing of George Floyd" is linguistically and factually more [[WP:PRECISE]] than "Death of George Floyd," and while more death articles are titled "Death of..", many death articles are titled "Killing of..." (e.g. [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], [[Killing of Naqeebullah Mehsud]], [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]], [[Killing of Peter Fechter]], [[Killing of Heidi Hazell]], etc), and thus this article if moved would be [[WP:CONSISTENT]] with practice here. ::'''[[WP:CONSENSUS]]''' — Recognizing these principles, right now wikipedia editors support a move by a margin of nearly 2:1 (140 in support of a move, compared to 75 opposing, by my tally). ::On the basis of descriptions by reliable sources, neutrality, article naming criteria, and consensus, I still think this page should be moved. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' Maintain neutral language. [[User:KidAd|KidAd]] ([[User talk:KidAd|talk]]) 22:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' per [[Death of Eric Garner]], a case that is ''extremely'' similar, plus [[WP:BLP]] and neutrality concerns. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 00:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' “Killing of...” is sensationalist. “Death” will suffice per Wikipedia’s neutrality policy. [[User:Beemer69|<span style="color:black">'''sixty'''</span><span style="color:darkred">'''nine'''</span>]] [[User talk:Beemer69|<small><span style='color:darkblue;text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em black'><sup>'''• whaddya want? •'''</sup></span></small>]] 01:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' Maintain factual language. "Killing of" is the common language when the individual's death is the direct result of another individual's actions, whereas "Death of" is more common for natural or accidental causes. The individual in question was killed, I don't think there is any doubt about that. "Murder of" would be prejudicial and inappropriate until such time that criminal proceedings begin/conclude.[[User:CanadianWikiUser|&#42;BrandonsLe*]] ([[User talk:CanadianWikiUser|talk]]) 01:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *<s>'''Oppose''' – While I agree with the argument in the case of a fatal shooting, this is too much/too soon for a case such as this. We should at least wait for a finding of homicide by the medical examiner.</s> ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 02:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC) **'''Support''' – Whether or not the police officer is guilty of crime, it is clear now that he caused the death, therefore killed George Floyd. "Killing of George Floyd" is <s>not</s> an appropriate title for this article. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *** {{ping|Coffeeandcrumbs}} I think you may have typo'd — your !support and "is not an appropriate title" appear to contradict eachother 😊 — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; please &#123;&#123;[[Template:ping|ping]]&#125;&#125; me in replies)</small></span> 10:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ****Thanks, fixed. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 15:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. "Killing" is defined as [https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/killing an act in which someone is deliberately killed]. At this time, there is no evidence that Chauvin deliberately intended to kill Floyd. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:This is simply NOT true. Killing can literally be either accidental or deliberate. Murder is the specific term that precisely refers to deliberate killing. This is why the term "homicide" is so often used in early reports - because it specifies that a death was caused by another person but makes no statement on whether that death was accidental or premeditated. I support changing the article to "the killing of George Floyd," because his death WAS a homicide, full stop. Whether the killing was murder or not is what is up for debate, not whether he WAS killed. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03|2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03]] ([[User talk:2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03#top|talk]]) 01:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)</small> *:While I agree with your !vote, that is not a good definition of killing. If you hit someone with a car and they die, you killed them, even without intent. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/killing A simple and better definition]: 1: the act of one that kills. From [[Oxford Dictionary of English]]: an act of causing death, especially deliberately. So maybe in British English it is more considered to mean a deliberate act? ODE only says "especially deliberately" though, not exclusively. OED says only: 1. a. The action of the vb. kill, in various senses. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 02:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' and snow close until after both autospy and any conviction. Despite the video being as close to direct support that the cops actions led to the complications to his death there may be other factors at play that the cops only made it worst but were not the cause. Even if it was determined if the cops were the direct cause of death, then it is a matter of the circumstances of the arrest that may have given reason to do what they did (very unlikely but we are wikipedia and need to stay neutral here and cannot presume guilt). So until these events happen, this must stay at "Death of..." --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 02:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose, for now''' until an autopsy. I'd think it'd be biased to declare it a killing unless the autopsy clears Floyd of any possible underlying conditions, regardless of opinions on the video. [[User:Fernsong|Fernsong]] ([[User talk:Fernsong|talk]]) 04:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - true, the death could be classified as culpable homicide or homicide, depending on the autopsy and the policemen’s motives, but "killing" should not be added unless there is proof that the policemen intended to kill him. [[User:RedBulbBlueBlood9911|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:#00a2ff">RedBulbBlueBlood9911</span>]]&#124;[[User talk:RedBulbBlueBlood9911|'''<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:DarkBlue">Talk</span>''']] 06:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - Death seems more encyclopedic and neutral; killing implies culpability. [[User:Ovinus Real|Ovinus Real]] ([[User talk:Ovinus Real|talk]]) 06:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support'''. There is absolutely no question that he was killed and that there is culpability. Millions of people have witnessed his killing, recorded in detail on video. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 07:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support'''. Death implies that it was not caused by another person, while killing is when one person harms another. [[User:Tbrechner|Tbrechner]] ([[User talk:Tbrechner|talk]]) 07:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:"Death" implies nothing but that the person is deceased. There is no evidence I can find that "death" is only used for cases without outside causation. Do you have such evidence? In fact, there is a reason why terms like "natural death" and "suicide" exist to differentiate from just "death". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' for now per WWGB. Even if that definition isn't very good, the fact remains that "killing" carries the connotation of deliberateness. However, as this is an American topic, the American definition of "killing" should be used. As such, if the (significant) majority of RS use the term "killing of George Floyd" I support changing the name in the future. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 08:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC) ::See my post below: contrary to your assertion, in the English language, murder implies deliberateness, but killing does not. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) :::Killing most certainly implies deliberateness and intent. Until an autopsy verifies the true cause of Floyd's death, we cannot maintain a neutral POV and at the same time insinuate cause, when we do not know the cause. [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 01:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 ::::"Killing" does not imply intent to kill. According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'': {{tq|To put to death; to deprive of life; to slay, slaughter. In early use implying personal agency and the use of a weapon; later, '''extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an accident''', over-work, grief, drink, a disease, '''etc.'''}} -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :::::{{u|Darouet}}, killing implies that a crime has taken place and that someone is guilty of committing the crime, whether it is manslaughter or murder, and associating that with a living person without a conviction is against [[WP:BLPCRIME]]. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 21:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :::::No it doesn't. There are plenty of ways to kill someone without committing a crime: self-defense, war, [[justifiable homicide]]. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 02:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ::::::The issue is not criminality, but intent. If a police officer shoots someone wrongfully, they were using deadly force, which demonstrates an intent to cause death. To the best of my knowledge, the force used against Floyd was not considered deadly force (at least, insofar as it is defined by rules of polce conduct) so it is not our place to prescribe intent to kill. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 12:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :::See WWGB's comment above. The fact that ''some'' dictionaries define "kill" as implying deliberateness means that "kill" has the connotation of deliberateness. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 12:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. Death sounds more neutral. [[User:Infernape612|Infernape612]] ([[User talk:Infernape612|talk]]) 08:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose:''' We are not a jury to decide whether it was a culpable offense (or not) to the point of a homicide. "Death" is by far more neutral for an encyclopedic article.--[[User:Deepak G Goswami|Deepak G Goswami]] ([[User talk:Deepak G Goswami|talk]]) 08:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support:''' The guy was on the floor with a police officer's knee on his neck, telling them "I can't breathe" and "Don't kill me" until he passed out and died. Regardless of their intention, the police officers caused the death of this man - looks like a killing to me. --[[User:Xwejnusgozo|Xwejnusgozo]] ([[User talk:Xwejnusgozo|talk]]) 08:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:"Looks like to me" is not an accepted scientific method of determining causation, especially not for Wikipedia which relies on reliable sources. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *::{{ping|SoWhy}} Dude quit being such a condescending smart-ass. You deliberately ignored his analysis and only used his conclusion as though that was the only thing he said without backing up why he concludes that. He clearly stated REASONS before concluding "Looks like a killing to me". Do you not know how conslunsions work? First you state reasons then you conclude by saying what your analysis shows. [[Special:Contributions/94.175.64.92|94.175.64.92]] ([[User talk:94.175.64.92|talk]]) 20:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:::There is nothing condescending about it. Analyzing a primary source and reaching your own conclusion - valid or otherwise! - is what we call [[WP:OR|original research]]. This core policy explicitly states that {{xt|Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation}}. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 21:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *::{{ping|SoWhy}} Regardless of the wording I used, it should be blindingly obvious to everyone who saw the video: the man did not just ''die'', he died as a result of the actions of the police officers, ie. they ''killed'' him. --[[User:Xwejnusgozo|Xwejnusgozo]] ([[User talk:Xwejnusgozo|talk]]) 12:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:::Many reliable sources conclude the very same, describing Floyd's death as a "killing." -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *::::{{re|Darouet}} But the vast majority does not, which is also reflected in the article, which at this time contains 3 sources that use the word "killing" but 45(!) sources (if I did count right) that use the word "death". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 06:00, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' In my opinion saying it was a Death violates [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Killing is deffonatly more appropriate and [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 09:16, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' per precedent ([[Death of Eric Garner]]) and reasons given above. If and when someone is convicted for causing this death - and reliable sources start using another word(!) - we can reconsider. At this point, none of the sources in the article use "killing" (at least in the title) and most sources I can find go with "Death" (e.g. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/demonstrators-rally-over-death-of-george-floyd-who-died-in-police-custody/2020/05/26/fb67a961-aed3-4173-bdd8-7b230abb105a_video.html] [https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-death-of-george-floyd-in-context] [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/gallery/2020/may/27/protests-in-minneapolis-over-death-of-george-floyd-after-arrest-in-pictures] [https://www.npr.org/2020/05/27/863422803/how-minneapolis-communities-react-to-george-floyds-death?t=1590661206106] [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/us/george-floyd-minneapolis-death.html]). Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:Reaffirming my opposition. Unless the victim was shot (in which case "Shooting of" is used), ''basically all'' comparable articles (see for example the list in {{tlx|Black Lives Matter}}) use "Death of" ''until the perpetrator has been convicted'' (or found guilty but not criminally responsible).{{pb}}Only when there is a conviction the title is or is changed to "Murder of" or "Killing of" (e.g. [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Ilan Halimi]], [[Killing of Tim McLean]], [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shooting_of_Jordan_Edwards&oldid=892563238]).{{pb}}This is imho in line with [[WP:BLPCRIME]] which explicitly says {{xt| For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction. }} Neither an autopsy report nor a 3rd degree murder charge satisfy these requirements. When it comes to BLPs, we should err on the side of caution, even if they are credibly accused of killing another person.{{pb}}And last but not least, Wikipedia is a tertiary source. We should go by the terminology reliable secondary sources use. If one searches GNews for sources that do ''not'' mention "killing", one gets [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+-%22killing%22 ~192 million hits]. Searching for sources that do mention "killing", one gets [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+%22killing%22 ~104 million hits], i.e. only half as many (also considering that some are only using "killing" in quotes). If the usage is apparently 2 to 1 against "Killing" in news sources, we should go with the majority. Even after the autopsy was released, the apparent majority of such sources still refer to it as the "death" of George Floyd (e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52886593 BBC], [https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html CNN], [https://indianexpress.com/article/world/family-autopsy-floyd-asphyxiated-by-sustained-pressure-6438843/ The Indian Express], [https://news.sky.com/story/live-protests-continue-across-us-following-death-of-george-floyd-11998933 Sky News], [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/california-george-floyd-protests.html NYT], [https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-protests-george-floyd-laquan-mcdonald-police-deaths-20200602-rois6ifmpbh2nm4wt5vrhcvyrm-story.html Chicago Tribune], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-floyds-death-was-a-homicide-according-to-two-autopsies/2020/06/01/1d5b313a-a43b-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html WaPo]). {{pb}}Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *{{Strikeout|'''Oppose''' per SoWhy above [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 10:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)}} :*Now changing to '''Strong Support''' - clear killing now as more details come out, as well as the 3rd degree murder charge [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 19:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' Floyd was brutally murdered in front of a crowd of horrified bystanders as he begged for mercy, resulting in the firing of those four officers, international outrage and violent protests and demonstrations all over Minneapolis. This wasn't some accidental sudden "death", it was a literal ''killing''. [[User:PlanetDeadwing|PlanetDeadwing]] ([[User talk:PlanetDeadwing|talk]]) 10:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:We don't have the autopsy results & no-one's been charged. It would be inappropriate to say at this stage that he was killed, let alone murdered. We don't want to prejudice any criminal proceedings. [[User:Jim Michael|Jim Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim Michael|talk]]) 11:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' While Floyd was definitely killed, Wikipedia precedent is that the title is 'Death of' rather than 'Killing of' or any similar title. While this was a killing, this is a vote purely on precedent. [[User:AlternateHistoryGuy|AlternateHistoryGuy]] ([[User talk:AlternateHistoryGuy|talk]]) <s>*'''Snow Support''' Hundreds of sources are calling it a killing, including [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/27/george-floyd-sister-police-officers-should-be-charged-with-murder in the title]. I see no merit in the precedent argument. An accidental death caused by a choke on someone who wouldn't let themselves be cuffed has no relation to officers killing a cuffed person who on all available videos didn't resist, merely begged for his life & pleaded for his mommy. They mocked him while he was dying. Even the Donald has said justice is going to be served on those guys. Presenting a topic in a way that's considerably less accurate & compassionate than president Trump does is a little disconcerting. He didn't just die, he was killed, current title is almost "fake news". [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 12:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC) ::Upgrading to Snow support per the murder charge, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:Weight & WP BLP. (BLP per due respect to the victims family, & also as comparing this to an accidental death where the suspect wouldn't let himself be cuffed appears almost borderline defamation to the x cop involved.) [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 19:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC) </s> Per [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSm0Nuqomg&t=55 new evidence] my rationale is no longer entirely correct, so striking vote. [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 09:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. Articles like this go through a name change progression as events unfold in due course, i.e., an autopsy is released that establishes the official cause of death, potential arrests are made, and a possible trial and conviction for murder. Logical RM discussions based on reason can proceed from an informed standpoint as each milestone is reached, with potential titles like "Killing of..." and "Murder of..." etc. But until then, we should follow our usual process of waiting for the right preconditions for RS, BLP, and NPOV policy reasons. Arguments from emotion and compassion may be noble sentiments and "feel right" to some editors, but they are not based in logic. As unsatisfying as it is, patience is required for us to get the article title right at the right time. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' George Floyd was killed, this was caught unambiguously on video, and numerous outlets have described it as a "killing". "Murder of" would be an entirely separate story, because it would be inappropriate until the officer(s) are charged and convicted, but "Killing of" is clearly appropriate, in the same way that the title "[[Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery]]" is appropriate. <b>[[User:TheTechnician27|<span style="color: #00a9ff"><i>TheTechnician27</i></span>]]</b> [[User talk:TheTechnician27|<span style="color: blue">(Talk page)</span>]] 12:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' It's too early for this. Once we get the autopsy and charges/convictions, I think it will be appropriate to move it, but not right now. [[WP:BLP]] definitely applies here as well. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 13:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:Reaffirming my opposition in light of the charges. [[WP:BLPCRIME]] is a policy that must be considered. {{!xt|For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in '''any''' article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.}} As hard as it may be for some people to realize, the officers are living individuals and are innocent until proven guilty. Wikipedia is not a court of law nor is it a platform for righting great wrongs. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 21:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' US English speakers need to be very careful to maintain neutrality, which means political neutrality in this case. If you don't know what that means, or have doubts, then step aside please. Also, it is a great time to look at the international coverage in cases like this. The UK Guardian uses killing https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/27/george-floyd-sister-police-officers-should-be-charged-with-murder. It seems very simple: there was a killer and there was the killed, this death was not caused by unknown or other circumstances. [[User:Hesperian Nguyen|Hesperian Nguyen]] ([[User talk:Hesperian Nguyen|talk]]) 13:09, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. Conservative, minimal assertions are best concerning the title of the article. We should not be aiming for a maximally inflammatory title. The title of an article doesn't aim for maximum sensationalism. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 13:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strongly support'''. The current title just makes Wikipedia sound mealymouthed to me. Rather than looking for precedent in the title "Death of Eric Garner" (perhaps overly cautious even in that case), our comparison ought to be with [[Death of Alan Kurdi]]. The death in question here was certainly caused: causing death is killing. [[User:Ph7five|- phi]] ([[User talk:Ph7five|talk]]) 13:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support'''. I think that 'killing' is perfectly neutral because that's precisely what it was. Murder is not appropriate yet, and might not be even if the perpetrator in question is found guilty, but killing implies a clear causal relationship in this case that Wikipedia should recognise. 'Death' is too transactional and considering the video footage and aftermath, wouldn't do justice as to WHY this incident has notoriety in the first place. [[User:LeoC12|LeoC12]] ([[User talk:LeoC12|talk]]) 13:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strongly support'''. I agree the current article title sounds mealymouthed. A killing is what occurred-- "killing" is a distinct term from "murder"-- and thus the article title should be changed to reflect this occurrence, just like the "[[Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery]]" affirms that particular event as a shooting. Furthermore, I fail to see how calling it a killing influences thought versus accurately describing what happened. I will feel even more strongly about this when the autopsy inevitably confirms the cause of death. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f]] ([[User talk:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|contribs]]) </small> <small>— [[Special:Contributions/2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f]] ([[User talk:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|talk]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small> [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 18:47, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Reluctant support'''- ideally we'd just move it to [[Murder of George Floyd]] immediately, but the section above suggests that that wouldn't be possible without a change to BLP, so "killing" is the next-best alternative. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans">[[User:Chessrat|<span style="color:#C90">Chessrat</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Chessrat|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]], [[Special:Contribs/Chessrat|<span style="color:#f78">contributions</span>]]) </sup></span> 14:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' as it is clear this person was killed, and backed by reliable sources, death just implies that it wasn't done by a person (i.e it happened due to an illness, etc., not the case). I hold the opinion that we'll eventually move this to [[Murder of George Floyd]], but of course it's too early to do this until an investigation is done. [[User:GoodCrossing|GoodCrossing]] ([[User talk:GoodCrossing|talk]]) 15:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' as the video had clearly shown everything needed, fulfilling the chronology of his death per the previous requests of multiple users here. However, I must say that "killing" is too much of a sensationalized term for me. In replacement for a more neutral-sounding title, I'd opt for a "Murder of____" heading instead of the current suggestion [[User:Azurevanilla ash|Azurevanilla ash]] ([[User talk:Azurevanilla ash|talk]]) 15:23, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' at this time. Key words highlighted for emphasis. Until the report comes out, despite with the media is hyping it up to be, it could be anything from murder to alcohol poisoning, drug abuse/overdose, or a stroke/heart attack. [[Special:Contributions/172.101.5.82|172.101.5.82]] ([[User talk:172.101.5.82|talk]]) 15:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *: According to police, Floyd was in a nearby car and "{{Highlight|appeared to be under the influence}}". A spokesman for the police department said the officers ordered him to exit the vehicle, at which point he "physically resisted". *: According to the Minneapolis police, officers "were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he {{Highlight|appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance.}}" <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/172.101.5.82|172.101.5.82]] ([[User talk:172.101.5.82#top|talk]]) 15:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)</small> *::That's what the police claimed before video evidence came out... which media universally acknowledge directly contradicted police statements. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *<del>Oppose for now</del> - We need to wait for the majority of RSes to refer to it as a "killing" before we can. If the medical examiner rules this as a homicide, the RSes will likely start using "killing" instead of "death", at which point we should change the title, but until then, we should continue to follow the sources and use "death". It seems we go through this every time there is a new article about a suspected murder, and I wish experienced editors would take on board that we waste our resources when we make premature move requests or have lengthy arguments like this, especially in the first few days. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 16:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC) **I'm going to be a real outlier here: it's now a murder case called ''State v. Derek Chauvin'' [http://mncourts.gov/media/StateofMinnesotavDerekChauvin.aspx]. "The death of George Floyd" is the murder alleged in State v. Derek Chauvin. Because this is an encyclopedia, I think articles about notable murder cases should be named after the murder case, and not "murder of [victim's name]" or "killing of [victim's name]". So, I'd '''support a move to [[State v. Derek Chauvin]]'''. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 04:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ::*{{u|Levivich}}, what about [[WP:COMMONNAME]]? "Oppose for now" makes sense to me I think<s>, isn't "death" what most sources use at the moment?</s> [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 19:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC) <small>[[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 20:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)</small> *'''Oppose''' due to the lack of information. [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 17:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong oppose''' until we have confirmation. [[User:Spengouli|Spengouli]] ([[User talk:Spengouli|talk]]) 17:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' killing or murder, as the event in question is his murder, the act of killing him, not his death. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 17:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:{{u|Ɱ}}, do you have access to an autopsy report that the rest of us don't? While it is very likely that the pressure on his neck killed him, there is no way to be certain until that report comes out. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 20:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *::[[WP:BLUESKY]], the video is sufficient proof-saying he couldn't breathe before dying. It's public knowledge, not disputed by any credible sources. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 03:11, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:::[[Correlation does not imply causation]]. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 05:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *::::Your failure to accept indisputable evidence, a video recording of his murder, shocks me. When Trump finally is recorded shooting someone on Fifth Avenue, I'll remember not to list him as a murderer until he's convicted. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 06:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:::::It's not a failure to accept evidence to point out that two events happening at the same time does not mean that one caused the other. And yes, per [[WP:BLPCRIME]] you would indeed be incorrect to list Trump as a murderer in this hypothetical scenario. I understand the general sentiment behind this request and I truly sympathize but we cannot forget that even those police officers involved are relatively unknown living people for whom our policies require a presumption of innocence "unless a conviction has been secured" (per [[WP:BLPCRIME]]). I have not seen any argument so far as to why this core policy should be ignored in this case. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :::::: Saying Floyd was killed isn't accusing anyone of a crime. There are loads of legal scenarios in which someone can kill someone without committing a crime. Calling this article the "murder of" would be accusing someone of a Crime, and then I'd agree we have to wait until a conviction happens. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 15:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' - Normally I would be neutral on this but there's clear cut evidence on video. That means that I'm supporting it. [[User:Jdcomix|Jdcomix]] ([[User talk:Jdcomix|talk]]) 18:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' - the video is enough evidence and was published, the fact is of public knowledge The article is about the killing, not the death as mentioned before [[User:HM7Me|HM7Me]] ([[User talk:HM7Me|talk]]) 18:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:See [[WP:OR]] - basing an article title on your own personal interpretation of a video is not acceptable. Cheers, [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 18:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *::As I pointed out in my comment above, many reliable sources are describing Floyd's death as a killing, so such a label does not rely upon OR. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 19:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now''' the death looks like a murder. But I will wait until we have all of the facts about the death. There may be some mitigating factor as of yet unknown. [[WP:NORUSH]] probably applies to this. We can always change it later. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 19:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:This proposal is to change the name to "Killing," not "Murder," which is something entirely different. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 19:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *::{{ping|Darouet}} That is a [[Distinction without a difference|distinction without a difference]] [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 02:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:::{{ping|Lightburst}} No it's not. A killing means that someone was killed by the actions of someone else. A murder is when they are legally responsible for that killing. Some killings are not murder, most obviously self-defense --[[User:Gimmethegepgun|Gimmethegepgun]] ([[User talk:Gimmethegepgun|talk]]) 05:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *::::{{ping|Gimmethegepgun}} Meh. Obviously there is not support for the change at this point. Maybe later. Until then this is a pedestrian argument and it is just quibbling over semantics. "Death" is appropriate until we have more information. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 14:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Weak support''' - While it is somewhat premature to call it an act of murder, the general consensus right now is that it is a murder. Unless a source comes out and proves the contrary, I think it is safe to assume that the currently provided evidence is correct. [[User:KevTYD|KevTYD]] <small>([[User talk:KevTYD|wake up]])</small> 20:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' - The discussion is not about whether he was murdered, as the motives of the officers are unknown so far. However, I believe it is clear from the evidence provided that Floyd's death was purposeful on the part of the officers, and that evidence suggesting he died of other causes is shaky at best. --[[User:Lugnutlarry|Lugnutlarry]] ([[User talk:Lugnutlarry|talk]]) 20:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' - Per {{u|Darouet}}'s reasoning in discussion below, arguments opposed have little basis. Further, agree with {{u|RealFakeKim}} above: Saying we need to wait for law enforcement charges saying it was a Death violates [[WP:WEIGHT]] and "killing" is more common and therefore better for Wikipedia per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. —[[User:Shrinkydinks|Shrinkydinks]] ([[User talk:Shrinkydinks|talk]]) 20:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Oppose''' - Killing implies the article is about a very small subcategory of death--the action of killing. If the article is about the ''killing'', how can we justify putting the protests, lawsuits, etc. in this article? Death, on the other hand, is an all-encompassing title for this topic. Protests are related to the death. (Nobody can protest against the ''killing'' which has already been done). Lawsuits are related to the death. Similar articles also start with ''Death''. For example, the [[Death of Osama Bin Laden]], not the killing of. [[User:Sherwilliam|Sherwilliam]] ([[User talk:Sherwilliam|talk]]) 20:52, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:Really? Please see [[Killing of Harambe]], [[Killing of Cecil the lion]], [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], and [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]]. All of those articles cover protests, lawsuits, and the overall impact. Some even devote a majority of the text to it. There is a precedent. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 23:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' - If we want to get technical / semantic, Floyd's death "ocurred" as a direct result of the actions of Officer Derek Chauvin. "Death" implies lack of a living agent whereas "killing" explicitly identifies one. The evidence as currently presented show no doubt as to the fact that Chauvin killed Floyd. [[User:TheGreatClockwyrm|TheGreatClockwyrm]] ([[User talk:TheGreatClockwyrm|talk]]) 21:57, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' - Video footage and multiple sources all corroborate that it was a killing. As mentioned above, leaving it as death likely violates [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Furthermore, kill is defined as to 'cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing)' - exactly what occurred here. Similar articles are also titled as 'Killing of' so it would be consistent. <span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#37364a">[[User:WBPchur|<span style="color:#FFF">'''WBPchur'''</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:WBPchur|💬]]●[[Special:Contributions/WBPchur|✒️]]●[[User:WBPchur/UB|💛]]</sup> 22:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC). *'''Strong Support''' - Editors such as myself are not arguing on emotion, I am arguing on the merit of the sources that describe it as a killing, and as stated above [[WP:WEIGHT]] is in violation. [[User:VF01|VF01]] ([[User talk:VF01|talk]]) 22:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' for now. 'Death' seems to be used in similar articles earlier. Seems sufficient for encyclopedic purposes. --[[User:Thi|Thi]] ([[User talk:Thi|talk]]) 22:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' - Just to be clear, to those of you who are arguing we should contravene reliable sources and call this a "death" until the ME report: are you genuinely concerned about the possibility that Floyd may have died of natural causes while his neck was under an officer's knee for seven minutes, and while he stated that he couldn't breathe and that they were killing him? When someone dies in a shooting, do we usually wait for the ME report to describe the incident as a killing, just to rule out the possibility that the victim may have died of a naturally-occurring heart attack in the split seconds before the bullet impacted? We should follow the reliable sources. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 22:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *:Yes, we should follow the reliable sources. However, they overwhelmingly use the word "death" instead of "killing". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' per everyone voted "oppose". [[Special:Contributions/2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52|2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52]] ([[User talk:2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52|talk]]) 22:25, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' The [[death of Eric Garner]] and other extremely similar cases use "death of" due to the neutrality of the statement per [[WP:NPOV]]. [[User:Haydenaa|Haydenaa]] ([[User talk:Haydenaa|talk]]) 22:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' killing refers to the death of someone caused by someone else, not necessarily a murder. This is obviously the case here. [[User:Dark-World25|Dark-World25]] ([[User talk:Dark-World25|talk]]) 23:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong support''', changing to "Killing of" is not suggesting a murder, but a death caused by another person. This is both factually accurate and backed by sources which refer to this as a killing. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 23:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' per RealFakeKim. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 23:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support'''Occam's Razor means we must assume the strangulation was a reason for his death, not any other cause for which there is so far no evidence (or even indication). Also for what it's worth, 'Killing of' does not violate [[WP:NPOV]]. [[User:Devgirl|Devgirl]] ([[User talk:Devgirl|talk]]) 00:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''', as this was objectively a killing. The video evidence is right there. "Death" implies a random event without any causal relationship. 00:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nmurali02|Nmurali02]] ([[User talk:Nmurali02#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nmurali02|contribs]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> *'''Oppose''' per {{u|haydenna}}. Conformity to [[Death of Eric Garner]] [[Death of JonBenét Ramsey]] [[Death of Breonna Taylor]] etc. Only exceptions are seemingly assassinations &/ animals. That and [[WP:NPOV]] due to it not being an inherent intentional killing. — <span style="text-shadow:red 0em 0em 0.8em">[[user:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:red">IVORK</b>]]</span> <sub>[[User talk:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:Green; font-size:x-small">Talk</b>]]</sub> 01:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *: I would like to point out that the latter article is currently in the process of undergoing a proposal for a page move to [[Shooting of Breonna Taylor]] instead, so it should probably not be cited as firm precedent pending the results of that move discussion. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:::"Killing" does not imply intent. According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary|OED]]'', the modern definition is {{tq|extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an '''accident''', over-work, grief, drink, a disease, '''etc.'''}} -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:*'''Note''' Humans are animals too. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 02:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' Our quest for neutrality should not blind us; we can see, on video, an act that led to Floyd's death. Labeling it a killing is no less encyclopedic than labeling [[murder of Tupac Shakur|Tupac Shakur's death a murder]]. If anything, calling it simply a "death" is misleading - "killing" makes it clear that their was another human involved, which objectively, there was - no matter the "cause" of death, he would be alive if he had never interacted with the police officer. Furthermore I would assert that [[death of Eric Garner]] should also be moved to killing, for same reasons. [[User:Thornsie|Thornsie]] ([[User talk:Thornsie|talk]]) 01:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. Would be a break from precedent, and implies a certain level of culpability (if not strictly semantically). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 02:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *''' Oppose ''' Death is the most neutral language.[[User:Pharaoh of the Wizards|Pharaoh of the Wizards]] ([[User talk:Pharaoh of the Wizards|talk]]) 02:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *''' Strong Support''' George Floyd was killed, which generated an abundance of reliable media coverage speaking to that fact. The publicity surrounding him is not merely about the fact that he 'died', it is specifically about the fact that he was killed, the manner he was killed, and whom he was killed by. It is the killing of George Floyd that infers notability, not the death of George Floyd. The article title should reflect that. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''', since the process by which Floyd died, not the death itself, is the main topic of the article, and it's pretty much crystal clear that Floyd was, in fact, murdered. --[[User:letcreate123|<b style= "color:black">letcreate123</b>]] <small>([[User talk:letcreate123|<i style= "color:green">talk</i>]])</small> 02:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) **My vote is only further enforced by the fact that it's been confirmed recently that Floyd's death was a homicide, thus, he was killed. Coverage on that matter is already available so it's very easy to verify. --[[User:letcreate123|<b style= "color:black">letcreate123</b>]] <small>([[User talk:letcreate123|<i style= "color:green">talk</i>]])</small> 00:38, 2 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' - the way that George Floyd died, not just the fact that he died, is the subject of this article. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] ([[User talk:Guettarda|talk]]) 03:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now''' We should wait for autopsy or a judicial ruling before changing it, as *officially* there is no ruling yet and we really should wait for confirmation [[User:Jspace727|Jspace727]] ([[User talk:Jspace727|talk]]) 03:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''' As mentioned many times, "death" is the most neutral language right now. Articles will go through name changes down the line anyways, so we should definitely have this discussion again after an autopsy or pathology report. [[User:LittleWhole|LittleWhole]] ([[User talk:LittleWhole|talk]]) 03:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''': Whether or not you believe his death was fair or not, his life was taken by another human, therefore it was killing. There is no debate. He was killed, that's a fact, he's deceased because of another person. Accept it. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/32.213.160.30|32.213.160.30]] ([[User talk:32.213.160.30#top|talk]]) 03:55, 29 May 2020 (UTC)</small>‎ * '''Support''' The main topic is that he was killed. There is strong support for this view. [[User:Wiki5537821|Wiki5537821]] ([[User talk:Wiki5537821|talk]]) 04:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' George Floyd's murder is on video and is even right there in the first picture in the article. Although I'd prefer calling it a Murder, calling it a Killing seems far more unambiguous than calling it a Death (which implies he died from natural causes). [[User:Westindiaman|Westindiaman]] ([[User talk:Westindiaman|talk]]) 04:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:I may personally agree that the officer kneeling on his neck appeared to kill him. However, neither you nor I are pathologists, medical examiners, or coroners and we have not examined the deceased to determine cause of death. To my knowledge this has not been done yet. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 04:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''' primarily on precedent for similar deaths. May need to be decided on a wider scope, but "Death of" is common to many similar deaths without compromising their accuracy or neutrality. [[User:StuartH|StuartH]] ([[User talk:StuartH|talk]]) 04:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' it doesn't seem disputed that his death was brought on by the police officer's actions, whether the officer intended to kill him or not. It is not likely he would have died otherwise. So "murder" would be too far, as it implies intent, but "killing" does seem appropriate and a neutral statement of fact. [[User:Paradoxsociety|<font face ="arial black" color="#001A99">Paradox</font>]][[User talk:Paradoxsociety|<font face="arial black" color="#006699">society</font>]] 04:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' breaks precedent and decreases article navigability [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 05:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Oppose''' As per above statements in that it would break precedent, be highly against NPOV, and would allow media sensationalism to dictate articles that are supposed to be objective. --[[User:Therexbanner|Therexbanner]] ([[User talk:Therexbanner|talk]]) 05:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' The fact that this man was killed by another person is supported by reliable primary and secondary sources. Either title is fine to me though as both are accurate. [[User:Gamebuster|Gamebuster]] [[User talk:Gamebuster|(Talk)]]║[[Special:Contributions/Gamebuster|Contributions)]] 05:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' Or even change to Murder of George Floyd. ——[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 05:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' Killing may not be as premeditaded as murder, but I wouldn't be surprised if the legal accusaion would be manslaughter. [[User:Alandeus|Alandeus]] ([[User talk:Alandeus|talk]]) 07:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Oppose''' There is no reason to change the title of the article when it is serving its intended purpose. [[User:CatcherStorm|<b><i><span style="text-shadow:3px 3px 4px darkgray;"><span style="color:#0000A0">CatcherStorm</span></span></i></b>]] [[User talk:CatcherStorm|<sup><i><span style="color:#2C3539">talk</span></i></sup>]] 06:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' An extremely similar article is titled [[Death of Eric Garner]], therefore precedent has already been set.--[[User:Chimino|Chimino]] ([[User talk:Chimino|talk]]) 07:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' need to wait for a conviction [[User:Yodabyte|Yodabyte]] ([[User talk:Yodabyte|talk]]) 07:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''SNOW Close and Oppose'''. Wikipedia is a [[WP:NPOV|neutral encyclopedia]]. Wikipedia is [[WP:CRYSTAL|not a crystal ball]], and cannot make decisions on a fact of a matter that has clearly not been determined yet. The word "killing" denotes intent. That has not yet been proven in a court of law, and therefore must not be concluded as such in the article title currently. While I sympathize with the plight of those championing a cause for justice for the article subject and working against police violence, per [[WP:NPOV]], Wikipedia is also [[WP:ADVOCACY|not a platform for advocacy]], [[WP:ACTIVIST|activist movements]] or [[WP:NOBLE|personal struggles]]. "Death" is a more neutral while factual term to describe the event for the time being. [[User:Optakeover|<span style="color:#ffffff; background:#3e007e">Optakeover</span>]]<sup>[[User:Optakeover|(U)]][[User talk:Optakeover|(T)]][[Special:contributions/Optakeover|(C)]]</sup> 07:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *: {{re|Optakeover}} my understanding of SNOW is that it's for when something definitely won't pass. By my count the votes are currently tied on oppose/support, so I don't see how SNOW can possibly apply. There's a good chance it will pass, or that it will be tied, there is no reason I can think of to say this will definitely end on oppose. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 11:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *::{{ping|JustLucas}} Who are you to say? What if consensus is for SNOW close? Think about the hypothetical situation. In any case, my reason is based on policy. And that is my point. [[User:Optakeover|<span style="color:#ffffff; background:#3e007e">Optakeover</span>]]<sup>[[User:Optakeover|(U)]][[User talk:Optakeover|(T)]][[Special:contributions/Optakeover|(C)]]</sup> 11:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:::{{u|Optakeover}}, this isn't a [[WP:SNOW]] situation imo [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 12:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *::::We rely upon dictionaries to agree upon the meaning of words. According to the OED, the modern definition of killing does not imply intent, and can include "any means" of causing someone to die, including accident. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *::::If you don't know what [[WP:SNOW]] means, please don't call for a snow close. Clearly not a snowball's chance in hell of this being a snow close. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:10, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' As per GorillaWarfare. The officer caused George's death, which is killing. [[User:Cthulhu Inc|Cthulhu Inc]] ([[User talk:Cthulhu Inc|talk]]) 08:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now''' There is simply no need at this moment to draw an inference as to his cause of death when it will likely be conclusive and readily sourced. Without question, he died and that is a completely accurate title. However, that he was killed creates an impression that an intentional act is what killed him. It looks like the kneeling on the neck is related to the cause of death but that can't be known until there is an autopsy and report issued.[[User:Tridacninae|Tridacninae]] ([[User talk:Tridacninae|talk]]) 08:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now''' per [[WP:CRYSTAL]]. We have yet to get a coroner's ruling. We all saw something horrible and while it's extremely likely it will be ruled a homicide, there's always the possiblity of ''something'' else we cannot see. I'll be very suprised if that's the case but there is [[WP:NORUSH]]. The title is descriptive of the event. That something looks "obviously" like X still isn't X until it's official. Thinking about it that may be why the four ex-officers haven't been arrested yet. They don't know what the charge will be yet. Bad idea given the last couple of days in the city. They could have always upgraded the charges.[[User:ZarhanFastfire|ZarhanFastfire]] ([[User talk:ZarhanFastfire|talk]]) 08:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' based on sources, for instance Reuters titles "[https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-usa-congress/house-democrats-demand-probes-of-police-killings-of-black-americans-idUKKBN2343LR?il=0 police killings of black Americans]". Inventing our own standards for the usage of the word "killing", such as the presence or lack of a "coroner's ruling" as requested by the comment above, is forbidden by the policy [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. Every !vote above which doesn't rely on sources should be discounted. [[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' given that Wikipedia is a [[WP:NPOV|neutral encyclopedia]]. Multiple tertiary sources use "killing", including the Guardian's artcle "[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/george-floyd-killing-officers-derek-chauvin-tou-thao-investigated George Floyd Killing]" and the German DW article "[https://www.dw.com/en/un-condemns-us-police-killing-of-george-floyd/a-53608812 UN condemns US police killing of George Floyd]". Sources that do not use this terminology tend to be closer to the event and more likely not to be trustworthy. [[User:Althunyon|Althunyon]] ([[User talk:Althunyon|talk]]) 09:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' Wide variety of RS indicate that it was a killing, because the video indicates that it was a killing, because it was a killing. I'm not sure what more else one needs. We must follow the sources. [[User:Symphony Regalia|Symphony Regalia]] ([[User talk:Symphony Regalia|talk]]) 09:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' It is already the general understanding that this was a killing, there is not reason not to reflect that in the name of the article. --[[User:Ratherous|Ratherous]] ([[User talk:Ratherous|talk]]) 09:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' Plenty of sources talk about killing, and it's pretty clear from all available evidence that the officer caused Floyd's death. [[User:BeŻet|BeŻet]] ([[User talk:BeŻet|talk]]) 10:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' Per the name of the article of [[Death of Eric Garner]] a similar case <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:1.Ayana|1.Ayana]] ([[User talk:1.Ayana#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/1.Ayana|contribs]]) 11:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)</small> *'''Oppose''' per [[WP:NPOV]] and convention ([[Death of Eric Garner]]) [[Special:Contributions/39.57.145.208|39.57.145.208]] ([[User talk:39.57.145.208|talk]]) 11:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' – "Killing" is a more adequate term since someone caused the death, "Death" could also mean an accident. [[User:Ca1ek|Ca1ek]] ([[User talk:Ca1ek|talk]]) 12:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''': This is not a death, it is a clear murder, according to maximum news sources. So It should be moved to [[Killing of George Floyd]] [[User:TheChunky|<font color="orange">The Chunky</font>]] ([[User talk:TheChunky|<font color="green">speak</font>]])12:57, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' Killing is what happened he did not die of natural causes (well without help), and as for other stuff, A: that is not valid and B: That is just an argument to rename any other pages, not to not rename this one.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' "Killing" is accurate and how it is described in reliable sources, it's not for us to decide. As for the BLP issues, nobody's saying to call it "Murder of George Floyd" which would be (for now anyway) a BLP issue. Even if the use of lethal force were found to be justified, it would still be an accurate statement to say he was killed. [[User:Smartyllama|Smartyllama]] ([[User talk:Smartyllama|talk]]) 13:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' It's not newsworthy that a man died in Minneapolis. It's newsworthy that a man was killed. For comparison with a case where the victim survived, we refer to the Rodney King ''[[Rodney_King#Beating|Beating]]'' not to "the wounds of Rodney King". [[User:Arided|Arided]] ([[User talk:Arided|talk]]) 14:18, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' as RSs continue to use "death" over "killing" including: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52845796], [https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-thursday/index.html], [https://news.sky.com/story/george-floyd-death-minneapolis-police-station-set-on-fire-during-protests-as-trump-attacks-thugs-11996574], [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/us/knee-neck-george-floyd-death.html], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/concern-anger-george-floyds-death-spread-around-country/], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/29/george-floyd-minneapolis-protests-live-updates//], [https://www.foxnews.com/media/laura-ingraham-minneapolis-riots-george-floyd-death], [https://www.foxnews.com/media/trey-gowdy-george-floyd-death-national-conversation], [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/05/28/george-floyd-foxs-sean-hannity-criticizes-minneapolis-police/5281078002/], [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499923-george-floyd-showed-no-signs-of-life-by-the-time-first-responders] so it is the [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. There are also other reasons stated above including adhering to the BLP and Neutrality policy as well as waiting for more infomation like an autopsy or conviction. Regards [[User:Spy-cicle|<span style='color: #ceff00;background-color: #1e1e1e;'><b>&nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&nbsp;</b></span>]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|<sup><span style='color: #ceff00;background-color: #1e1e1e;'><b>''Talk''?</b></span></sup>]] 14:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' to align with similar articles (such as [[Death of Eric Garner]]) per [[WP:CONSISTENT]]. Moreover, until there is an autopsy or formal charges, it would violate neutrality to presume this was a murder by using "killing", even if that ends up being the case. [[User:RunningTiger123|RunningTiger123]] ([[User talk:RunningTiger123|talk]]) 15:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' – The death of George Floyd was caused by another man. That makes it a killing, and we should not deny that. [[User:Sembeljaars|Sembeljaars]] ([[User talk:Sembeljaars|talk]]) 16:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' Patience will out. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 16:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' per {{u|Gorilla Warfare}}, whose arguments are wholly convincing. Oppose unhelpful [[WP:BADGER|badgering]] by both sides. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 17:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' - and the facts at hand include an attempted coverup, which I take as cause to believe that Chauvin also considered it a killing. However, I like the suggestion from [[User:Levivich]] to call it ''State v. Derek Chauvin'', with a few redirects. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 23:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' – While I understand that staying neutral is important but neutrality in this case would be a reflection of supporting something that needs condemning at all levels. What needs not be forgotten is underlying connotations of words. Given the involved officer has been charged with third-degree murder according to this source<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.vox.com/2020/5/31/21276049/derek-chauvin-tou-thao-kueng-lane-officers-george-floyd-what-we-know}}</ref> I firmly believe that the page should be renamed to killing rather than "death"[[User:NotJuggerNot|NotJuggerNot]] ([[User talk:NotJuggerNot|talk]]) 23:23, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''': Floyd was killed. We should reflect in the title more specifically what happened to him. We know he was killed. [[User:WhoAteMyButter|<span style="color:#ffb300;text-shadow:1px 1px 6px rgba(255,153,0,0.6)">WhoAteMyButter</span>]] ([[User talk:WhoAteMyButter|<span title="Talk Page">📬</span>]]│[[Special:Contributions/WhoAteMyButter|<span title="Contribs">✏️</span>]]) 03:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''': The killer was charged with murder, the most recent autopsy agrees with the criminal justice system. There is no reason to deny reality. It's only a matter of time before the DOJ agrees this is murder. What more is needed? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.197.117.9|68.197.117.9]] ([[User talk:68.197.117.9#top|talk]]) 05:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> *'''Strong Support''' per the autopsy report. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 07:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ====Second convenience section==== *'''Very strong support''' The videos have made it clear that George Floyd was killed by another person. It is not sensationalist to use "Killing" because this change would not be at the expense of accuracy, while sensationalism does come at the expense of accuracy. This article is about more than just George Floyd's death, the article also talks about the result of the fact that he was killed. Floyd simply dying is not the reason riots are happening right now, it is the fact that he was killed by another person and the title should reflect this fact. [[User:MeumInfernum|MeumInfernum]] ([[User talk:MeumInfernum|talk]]) 13:26, May 29, 2020 (EST) *'''Strong Oppose''' Until there is an autopsy and/or charges are laid the article's name should remain the same. --[[User:Partridgepentathalon|Partridgepentathalon]] ([[User talk:Partridgepentathalon|talk]]) 17:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC) ::{{u|Partridgepentathalon}}, charges have been filed in case you would like to update your !vote. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' per {{u|Gorilla Warfare}} and {{u|MeumInfernum}}. [[User:ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester|ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester]] ([[User talk:ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester|talk]]) 18:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now''' until somebody gets a verdict. But considering that technically nobody is even charged yet, it would be an unnecessary breaking of [[wp:NPOV]] which plenty of activists on this site now seem to be all to happy to ignore. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5|2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5|talk]]) 18:19, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' - The general consensus right now is that it is a murder. Unless a source comes out and proves the contrary, it should be labeled as such and only changed if the autopsy proves otherwise. [[User:Lbparker40|Lbparker40]] ([[User talk:Lbparker40|talk]]) 18:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' now that the perpetrator has been charged with murder. Plenty of reliable sources describe Floyd's death as "killing".[https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-28/george-floyd-police-chiefs-criminal-justice-reform][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames][https://www.cbsnews.com/live/video/20200529180421-more-on-the-fallout-from-the-killing-of-george-floyd/]. It doesn't matter if other sources, or even more sources, have characterized the killing as "death". Those are not indicative of disparate points of view. As it turns out, death is the direct result of being killed. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' per the precedent of other articles like [[Shooting of Michael Brown]], [[Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko]], etc. The word "killing" does not imply murder. "Kill" only implies that Floyd did not die from some cause like disease or suicide; it implies that his life ended upon action by another human being. That Floyd died upon action by another person is irrefutable. [[User:BirdValiant|BirdValiant]] ([[User talk:BirdValiant|talk]]) 18:33, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' His death was caused by another individual harming him. Death makes it sound like he died of disease or natural causes. [[User:CodingCyclone|CodingCyclone]] ([[User talk:CodingCyclone|talk]]) 18:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now''', Wikipedia is not judge and jury and should remain a neutral arbiter of facts as they stand, precedence in other articles is that we use "Death" (eg [[Death of Eric Garner]]). If the officers involved are indicted and convicted at trial then will be the appropriate time to discuss renaming the article. [[User:Zerbey|Zerbey]] ([[User talk:Zerbey|talk]]) 18:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' He wouldn't be dead if it weren't for the knee on his neck. He was murdered. To say otherwise is disrespecting Mr Floyd and dissing the truth. [[User:Oxyaena|Ms.23]] ([[User talk:Oxyaena|talk]]) 18:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' - The Wikipedia article on manslaughter states, "Involuntary manslaughter is the killing of a human being without intent of doing so, either expressed or implied." It is obvious from the video that the Derek Chauvin's actions directly lead to the death of George Floyd which is (at least) manslaughter and therefore "killing" is the correct designation. [[User:Kmorris1077|Kmorris1077]] ([[User talk:Kmorris1077|talk]]) 18:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now''' until somebody gets a verdict. And then it should probably be "Murder" like at [[Murder of Jordan Edwards]].[[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] ([[User talk:Oneiros|talk]]) 18:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' – It's obvious to anybody with eyes that this was a murder, and now that there's a formal charge put forward, there's no excuse left. [[User:Cat&#39;s Tuxedo|Cat&#39;s Tuxedo]] ([[User talk:Cat&#39;s Tuxedo|talk]]) 18:53, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' - The manner in which he died has ample evidence. It was at the hands of another person and it's not a coincidence. I understand the need to have a cited source, but when it's plainly obvious a man had his knee on his neck, what more do you need? There's no ambiguity here. [[User:Leitmotiv|Leitmotiv]] ([[User talk:Leitmotiv|talk]]) 19:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' A killing is "an act of causing death." His death was caused. Passive voice in describing the events is not neutral but a deliberate stance. [[User:Liberte et paix|Liberte et paix]] ([[User talk:Liberte et paix|talk]]) 19:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong support''': The page should be moved to Killing of George Floyd as the Cop was charged with third degree murder. <ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/george-floyd-death-live-updates-protests-erupt-200529124843031.html}}</ref> --[[User:Vegitaboss|Vegitaboss]] ([[User talk:Vegitaboss|talk]]) 19:18, 29 May 2020 (UTC) {{Reflist talk}} * '''Strong Support''' Derek has now been charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter, making this officially a killing by the courts standards of an arrest warrant. I also think that most 'oppose for now' votes prior to the official charges no longer apply because of the official arrest charges, putting the consesnus largely in favor of a name change to "killing". Would like to hear from any past 'oppose for now' voters to see if they agree.[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 19:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong support''' It should be immediately moved to Killing or Murder of George Floyd as the cop who kneeled on this man's neck is charged with third-degree murder <ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/us-cop-taken-into-custody-over-death-of-black-man-that-caused-widespread-anger-2237530?pfrom=home-bigstory}}</ref> [[User:Neurofreak|Neurofreak]] ([[User talk:Neurofreak|talk]]) 19:49, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Weak Oppose''' – “Killing” feels like it’s getting into POV territory considering the controversy surrounding what happened. Also feels like an unnecessary deviation from similar incidents like the [[Death of Eric Garner]], which also uses “Death of” despite being declared a homicide. - [[User:Koldcuts|Koldcuts]] ([[User talk:Koldcuts|talk]]) 20:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :: Just saw he’s been charged with murder. Oppose is now a weak oppose. - [[User:Koldcuts|Koldcuts]] ([[User talk:Koldcuts|talk]]) 20:15, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' per RealFakeKim. [[User:AugusteBlanqui|AugusteBlanqui]] ([[User talk:AugusteBlanqui|talk]]) 20:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' as per semantic arguments given in the discussion section below by {{user|Darouet}}. -- ''[[User:Pingumeister|Pingumeister]]''<sup>([[User talk:Pingumeister|talk]])</sup> 20:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' per RealFakeKim's arguments. [[User:Demoxica|Demoxica]] ([[User talk:Demoxica|talk]]) 20:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' as per all the arguments above. Since the officer involved (Derek Chauvin) has been charged with murder, the title should probably be changed to "Murder of George Floyd". [[User:Octoberwoodland|Octoberwoodland]] ([[User talk:Octoberwoodland|talk]]) 20:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now''' The details of the death are unclear. Killing suggests a motive beyond just wanting to detain someone (regardless of the validity of the reason to want to detain). "Death of" is more neutral. Depending on the final legal outcome a change may be appropriate in the future. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 20:53, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' per BirdValiant. "Death" is not more neutral than "Killing", particularly in light of the charge with third-degree murder. ''Freeman emphasized he and his team would not have moved ahead with the case if they were not confident they had evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the officer was guilty. “As of right now, we have that,” Freeman said.''[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2020/may/29/george-floyd-killing-protests-minneapolis-minnesota-us-twitter-donald-trump-latest-news-live?page=with:block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0#block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0] --[[User:DarTar|DarTar]] ([[User talk:DarTar|talk]]) 20:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' for "Killing", and after the trial another move should be considered WRT "Murder". It is clear that a man's actions resulted in another man's death with just the video alone. The court of public opinion has no place on Wikipedia but this isn't a matter of opinion. "Murder" would be, but "Killing" does not as "Killing" can be state-sanctioned. -- [[User:Sarysa|sarysa]] ([[User talk:Sarysa|talk]]) 21:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' for "Killing" with "Murder" considered in the future, per reasons expressed above by {{user|Sarysa}}. [[User:Calcastor|Calcastor]] ([[User talk:Calcastor|talk]]) 21:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' This is indeed a killing. Derek Chauvin was charged with "Third-Degree Murder" and "manslaughter". If Chauvin had not knelt on Floyd's neck for that long, Floyd might have survived. I would also like to say that, *I feel like "Killing" is more appropriate than "Murder". [[User:Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)|Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)]] ([[User talk:Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)|talk]]) 21:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC) ::Charging means that investigators think a particular thing. It does not prove that their thinking is accurate. Else, charging would be the end of the matter and we'd have no need to consult those pesky courts. We should wait for the autopsy to determine whether an individual was responsible for the death. It shouldn't take so long; there is no need to rush it. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 21:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''' Death is a neutral term and does not imply that it was not caused by another person. Although the police officer has been charged with murder, we should wait till the conviction. [[User:SignificantPBD|SignificantPBD]] ([[User talk:SignificantPBD|talk]]) 22:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' for "Killing" with "Murder" considered in the future. Here's a link to a page that contains the full complaint against Chauvin: https://www.axios.com/george-floyd-police-officer-in-custody-080da82e-9262-47fd-a52c-3ef7421adb10.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3IHDzPMJwi5Oobg6p4z_DkbYnoujgV5UteWUafnkdNWdxGDK4fzf-9U2E [[User:John Link|John Link]] ([[User talk:John Link|talk]]) 22:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC) ::Based on the consistency argument by {{user| Awilley}} I've changed my opinion to '''Oppose'''. [[User:John Link|John Link]] ([[User talk:John Link|talk]]) 15:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' Mr Floyd was obviously killed by that bitch cop, so "Killing of George Floyd" should be the correct title of this article.[[User:Sadsadas|Sadsadas]] ([[User talk:Sadsadas|talk]]) 22:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Oppose''' I agree that Floyd's death was no question a killing, and I hope the cop rots, but like previous people have mentioned, the Eric Garner page is still titled "Death of". Wikipedia must be free of ANY bias, even if we as social beings all agree that this was a killing [[User:Thurgoodmarshallisbae|Thurgoodmarshallisbae]] ([[User talk:Thurgoodmarshallisbae|talk]]) 23:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' If 4 different video angles (possibly more) doesn’t justify this was in fact a killing of an unarmed black man, I don’t know what ever will. [[User:TruthGuardians|TruthGuardians]] ([[User talk:TruthGuardians|talk]]) 23:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' The officer was directly responsible for Floyd's death and has been charged with murder, therefore he killed him. [[User:GarethPW|GarethPW]] ([[User talk:GarethPW|talk]]) 00:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong support''' The video speaks for itself. And I actually want to add that we have this redirect [[Mohamed Noor (murderer)]], a black Minneapolis Police officer who accidentally killed a white lady. When the cop is black, we have no problem calling it a murder. --[[User:Deansfa|Deansfa]] ([[User talk:Deansfa|talk]]) 00:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :::That redirect was created ''after'' Noor was actually convicted of murder. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 16:33, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose'''. Until the cause of death is officially established, we should not characterize it. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 00:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong support''' "Death" sounds like a natural one. This is the murder we are talking about. Suitable title would be '''Murder of George Floyd'''. Mark my words, even if you wont change the name now, eventually it will end up with "Murder" word only. --[[User:NaveenNkadalaveni|Naveen N Kadalaveni]] ([[User talk:NaveenNkadalaveni|talk]]) 00:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' for all the reasons above. It may not have been a murder but it was unquestionably a killing by any useful definition of the term "kill". [[User:Lexicon|Lexicon]] <small>[[User talk:Lexicon|(talk)]]</small> 01:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''', if reliable sources are using "killed", so should we. "Killing" doesn't require that a crime has been committed, it simply means that a person's death was caused by another person, which is clearly the case here. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 02:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose for now''': Unclear verdict per other oppose reasons. Until a clear verdict on Floyd's death is reached, we should not risk changing the title into something else which throws off other readers. If the title does change, a suitable article name would probably be "Murder of George Floyd," but since a verdict for Floyd is not reached yet we shouldn't tamper with the title yet. [[User:Thissecretperson|Thissecretperson]] ([[User talk:Thissecretperson|talk]]) 02:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' He was killed, no source denies that, so let's call it a killing. --[[User:Denny|denny vrandečić]] ([[User talk:Denny|talk]]) 02:53, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support'''. The police didn't need to knee on his neck for so long if he didn't want to kill him. Humans need to breathe, if you don't let someone do that, then you are killing him.--[[User:Andres arg|Andres arg]] ([[User talk:Andres arg|talk]]) 02:55, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet. <span style="color:#666">&ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|<span style="color:#f90;">&nbsp;+</span>]]</span> 02:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' It’s a killing. Death implies ambiguity about how he died. It hasn’t been adjudicated whether it’s a murder but it’s clearly both true and easily verifiable that it was a killing. [[User:MarylandGeoffrey|MarylandGeoffrey]] ([[User talk:MarylandGeoffrey|talk]]) 03:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet + MarylandGeoffrey. = [[User:Paul2520|paul2520]] ([[User talk:Paul2520|talk]]) 03:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' because of the overwhelming evidence that was filmed and widely published by independent and mainstream media. That officer knelt of the victim's neck for nearly 9 minutes, even after the latter had repeatedly told him he could not breathe, even after passersby pleaded with him to let go of him or he'd kill him. [[User:Israell|Israell]] ([[User talk:Israell|talk]]) 05:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support killing''' as that is what happened. It is not like they died spontaneously and 4 police officers just happened to be holding him in their arms. The problem with such politically charged cases, like trumps weight is one can find physicians to say anything. Wound not user murder. Killing is sort of a middle ground. Death appear to be trying to obfuscate and sanitize what occurred. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 06:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''': It is absolutely true that Floyd died, and calling it a death in no way absolves the officer whose actions caused that death. "Killing" seems accurate but unnecessarily sensationalistic. [[User:Peter Chastain|<font face="Palatino Linotype">Peter Chastain</font>]] [[User talk:Peter Chastain|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[¡hablá!]</sup></font>]] 06:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ** I have a question. Killing doesn't have to be intentional. But what definition of killing do you intend to use. Per one definition it is equivalent to murder, per another it's simply to make something die. It can be used in different situations. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 03:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''': It isn't sensationalist—it's just accurate. [[User:Karmos|Karmos]] ([[User talk:Karmos|talk]]) 06:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' - after watching the video, yeah he definitely killed him [[User:Urgal|Urgal]] ([[User talk:Urgal|talk]]) 07:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''', since there are reliable sources available for "killing" (some mentioned above; e.g. see Nemo's comment). [[User:Ahmad252|Ahmad]]<sup>[[User Talk:Ahmad252|talk]]</sup> 07:40, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''', but only on a technical level, and somewhat weakly at that. [[User:Tentonne|Tentonne]] ([[User talk:Tentonne|talk]]) 08:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''', given that third degree murder charges have been levied, and to accurately assess the situation. [[User:Teddybearearth|Teddybearearth]] ([[User talk:Teddybearearth|talk]]) 08:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''' The preliminary autopsy finding leaves open the possibility of accidental death ("''The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death''"). I think we need to wait for such a change until either a conviction, or a more detailed autopsy report. -- [[User:Netwalker3|Netwalker3]] ([[User talk:Netwalker3|talk]]) 08:28, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' If 4 different video angles (possibly more to come) doesn’t justify that this was, in fact, a killing of an unarmed black man, I don’t know what ever will.[[User:TruthGuardians|TruthGuardians]] ([[User talk:TruthGuardians|talk]]) 08:48, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' per TruthGuardians. Simply watching the video settles this discussion. [[User:CrispyCream27|<span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #f4802b; color: #ffffff;">CrispyCream27</span>]] [[User Talk:CrispyCream27|<sup><span style='color: #f4802b;background-color: '><b>''(Talk)''</b></span></sup>]] 09:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''' Going to oppose this one. I understand that it certaintly seems like an unlawful killing of a civilian, and I do agree that it was unfair, unjust, and a blatant abuse of power, however Wikipedia is not the place to be using loaded langauge like that, especially considering the very current state of this news. [[User:Maxmmyron|Maxmmyron]] ([[User talk:Maxmmyron|talk]]) 10:10, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong support''' per {{u|RealFakeKim}}, {{u|TruthGuardians}} and {{u|GarethPW}}. Choosing the passive "death" is PoV; it is also loaded language. Floyd didn't just "die", he was killed. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; please &#123;&#123;[[Template:ping|ping]]&#125;&#125; me in replies)</small></span> 10:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - especially for now, but even when the autopsy comes out I'm not sure if we should change it. "Killing" is usually defined as intentionally or deliberately taking someones life, unless that police officer says he intentionally took Floyd's life, I think it would be a NPOV issue to say killing. Death will always be a neutral term, in my opinion. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 10:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose for now''' - as per naming conventions. As more information becomes available, the title of the article may need to be changed to reflect this new information. [[User:CremationLily|CremationLily]] ([[User talk:CremationLily|talk]]) 10:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' It is backed up by multiple sources and the video itself. In the current landscape I do not think Death would be considered a neutral term at all, killing more accurately reflects the general opinion from what I have seen. The police officers intentions also should not effect the terminology, killing does not need to be intentional to still be classified as killing. His arrest has also shown that he is considered to have killed someone by the state. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dubarr18|Dubarr18]] ([[User talk:Dubarr18#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dubarr18|contribs]]) 11:05, 30 May 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> *'''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet + MarylandGeoffrey. [[User:MacDoesWiki|MacDoesWiki]] ([[User talk:MacDoesWiki|talk]]) 04:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' Since the officer has been charged, there is now more than enough justification to change the title. [[User:Kevin n97|Kevin n97]] ([[User talk:Kevin n97|talk]]) 11:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' It would be the Death of George Floyd if he was not murdered, since the current consensus is that he was murdered, it should be the killing. But I do agree that it should wait until the autopsy is complete, but once that occurs I strongly support. [[User:JazzClam|JazzClam]] ([[User talk:JazzClam|talk]]) 13:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' (no longer neutral) per GorillaWarfare and Doc James, but also in light of the (questionably independent) autopsy, which nevertheless suggests that the actions of the police officers were partially responsible for the death. i expound on this a bit in the commentary, but it's clear to me that this is a death as a result of the actions of other people, which is a killing (not necessarily a murder, that's a debate for after the trial). Furthermore, more RSes are referring to it as a killing. Some do still refer to it as a death - it isn't ''not'' a death. But [[WP:COMMONNAME]] applies. In relation to "sensationalism", keeping it as "death" can have an inference of the ''lack'' of an external agency, so it's not an [[WP:NPOV]]-safe approach. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 13:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Oppose''' Since Wikipedia for the most part functions as an encyclopedia and therefore by default must describe any subject as objective, neutral and truthful as possible, Mr. Floyds' death must remain the title of the article until a trial and final investigation of cause of death have been concluded. Any other title is biased and nothing more than a judgmental people's court. We are not medical professionals or judges examining and convicting in this case. If Wikipedia does not entail neutral information, its purpose becomes irrelevant and invalid.--[[User:Lechatmarbre|Lechatmarbre]] ([[User talk:Lechatmarbre|talk]]) 13:58, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support'''. I further suggest we change the article title to "Murder of George Floyd" since the police officer that committed the murder has been charged with the same. [[Special:Contributions/74.76.172.231|74.76.172.231]] ([[User talk:74.76.172.231|talk]]) 14:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' unless one can prove that the video was doctored or that Mr Floyd spontaneously got tired of breathing of his own volition. In fact "Murder of George Floyd" should be the name of this article by the time this debate is over. [[User:AnyDosMilVint|AnyDosMilVint]] ([[User talk:AnyDosMilVint|talk]]) 15:14, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Long Oppose''' In tragic situations like this when people are filled with anger and despair it is important that we let policy guide us. In this case the relevant policy is [[WP:Article titles]]. That policy lists 5 criteria up front: '''Recognizability''', '''Naturalness''', '''Precision''', '''Conciseness''', and '''Consistency'''. Other criteria are discussed later: [[WP:Commonname]] and [[WP:NPOVTITLE|Neutrality]]. I will try to evaluate the two titles based on these. *:The two names are equally recognizable, natural, pricise, and concise. (Note that "precision" is talking about unambiguously identifying the subject and distinguishing it from other subjects, not the preciseness of the words we use.) That leaves us with Consistency, Commonness, and Neutrality. *:'''Consistency''': If we look at {{cl|Deaths_in_police_custody_in_the_United_States}} we have the following constructions: *::"Death of [Name]" *::"Murder of [Name]" *::"[Name]" *:There are no instances of "Killing of [Name]" *:A larger sample of articles is at {{cl|Filmed killings by law enforcement}}. That has similar examples of the above 3 constructions plus a lot of "Shooting of [Name]". But again zero examples of "Killing..." So Consistency favors "Death". *:'''Commonname''': There's not a great way of measuring this, but Google Search counts (with and without quotes) both favor "Death". (With quotes the ratio was about 4:3) *:'''Neutrality''': This is largely an issue of [[WP:WORDS]]. On Wikipedia we avoid judgemental and non-neutral words that may introduce bias. In [[WP:SAID]], "Synnonyms for said" could be compared with "Synnonyms for death". "Murdered", "lynched", "martyred", "massacred", "slaughtered", "exterminated", "executed", "passed away" all imply different things and evoke different emotions. But "death" is neutral. *:'''BLP''' One more consideration is [[WP:BLP|our policy on living persons]]. It is against our rules to conclude that a living person has committed a crime until that person has been convicted in court. "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction." So it would be problmatic to state in Wikipedia's voice that it was a killing. (Obviously if the officer is convicted the article can be moved at that point, probably to "Murder of..." or "Strangulation of..." :I would also like to respond briefly to some common arguments here that are not based in policy. ::"It is obviously a killing. Anybody can see that in the video. We should call it what it is." [[WP:Original research|It is not our job to make that judgement]]. Our job is to follow the best reliable sources and, in this case, the verdict of a jury. ::"We should wait and see what the autopsy report says." This is good thinking, and the result of the autopsy report should be in the article, but [[WP:BLPCRIME]] is clear that it is the conviction in a court of law in that matters. ::"The officer has now been charged, so we can call it a killing." Again, it's the conviction, not the charge, that matters. :Final note: As this is a highly emotional topic that is drawing many new editors, the eventual close of this request should include a detailed analysis addressing the arguments and policy basis of the result. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 14:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ::{{u|Awilley}}, your claim "There are no instances of 'Killing of [Name]' " is false. '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Killing+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1 There are more than 30 articles with "Killing of (Name)"]'''.---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 16:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :::C&C, I didn't claim that there were no articles with "Killing of..." I simply confined my search to categories containing articles similar to this. If you want to do a raw count of all articles everywhere then you should be comparing it to this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Death+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1] <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 18:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ::::I think C&C's list is the relevant compmarison. The "Death of ..." articles includes the much larger category of people who were not killed, for example the deaths of famous people by disease, accident, or other noteorhty circumstances. [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 16:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :::::SPECIFICO, that's correct. In order to do a meaningful comparison between C&C's list of '''52''' "Killing of..." articles and the list of '''507''' "Death of..." articles you would need to comb through and subtract all the irrelevant articles like [[Killing of animals]] and [[Death of Samantha (song)]] and the articles about people who died of natural causes. This is why it makes sense to use categories to look at a limited samples of people killed by police as I did above. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 14:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::{{u|Awilley}}, I agree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Filmed_killings_by_law_enforcement is the most relevant precedent, but of the "[noun] of [name]"s there, the vast majority are "shooting". There is no good analog of "shooting" for Floyd, because there's not really any appropriate single word that describes the manner in which he was killed. "Killing" is the next closest thing: less specific as to the method, but still clear that Floyd's death was caused by the police action. No blame or crime is implied. [[User:Danstronger|Danstronger]] ([[User talk:Danstronger|talk]]) 00:53, 2 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''': As long as the article doesn't imply a deliberate killing. Killing can also refer to simply causing death even if you don't mean it. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 17:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' Death is not a neutral term in that situation. As per [[User:Devgirl|Devgirl]], Occam's razor and a ton of evidence point that it was a killing, and. Even though this is not standard practice on Wikipedia, this case is not standard. I feel that omission and labeling as "Death" instead of killing is deliberately choosing to be imprecise. And that implies that there is a reasonable chance that he was not killed. And as per the information available, that is not a reasonable assumption. So death is not "neutral", it is just broader. And casting this shadow of doubt on such an important event is not the goal of Wikipedia. [[User:TiagoLubiana|TiagoLubiana]] ([[User talk:TiagoLubiana|talk]]) 18:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose'''. The standard title format for this situation is '''Death of (person)'''. [[User:KyuuA4|KyuuA4]] ([[User_talk:KyuuA4|Talk:キュウ]]) 19:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong support'''. I 100% agree that the article should be moved to [[Killing of George Floyd]]. I’ve checked on Wikipedia, and from what I see, “Death of” is usually used people like [[Death of Osama Bin Laden]], [[Death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi]], [[Death of Benito Mussolini]], and it is also used for nonviolent deaths and some suicides while “killing of” is used for people like [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], [[Killing of Peter Fechter]], and surprisingly, lots of recent prominent animal deaths like [[Killing of Harambe]] or [[Killing of Cecil the Lion]]. [[Death of Freddie Gray]] is listed as “death of”, but I think I’ll try to change that. [[User:Yoleaux|Yoleaux]] ([[User talk:Yoleaux|talk]]) 20:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''SUPPORT''' They were clearly killed. You have video footage of what happened. There is no possible way he would've just died if he hadn't been in that situation. If the jury rules it was murder, this can be renamed against to Murder of George Floyd. It is not original research to look at a video and see what happened, its common sense. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 21:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *:{{u|Dream Focus}}, that's exactly what original research is. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 00:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Support'''. The most reliable source is the video itself. The video clearly shows that Derek Chauvin was the primary factor in George Floyd's becoming unresponsive. I think this is common sense that the most neutral thing we can do is call it a killing. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 22:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support'''. Derek Chauvin was charged with third degree murder of George Floyd. At least from the state prosecution's side, killing or even murder is the correct word to describe what had happened. [[User:JesseC436|JesseC436]] ([[User talk:JesseC436|talk]]) 22:44, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''', per JesseC436. [[User:L ke|L ke]] ([[User talk:L ke|talk]]) 23:06, 30 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Oppose''' results of the autopsy do not show that this was caused by strangulation. Regardless of how you feel about the video, it's best to remain neutral until a trial finds him guilty/innocent, at which point we can change the title if necessary. [[User:Anon0098|Anon0098]] ([[User talk:Anon0098|talk]]) 02:09, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Provisionally Oppose''' The results of the autopsy seems to be inconclusive. I'd wait a few days before moving this page if more reliable sources appear in the meantime. [[user:BrxBrx|BrxBrx]]([[user talk:BrxBrx|talk]])<sup>(please reply with <nowiki>{{SUBST:</nowiki>re|BrxBrx<nowiki>}}</nowiki>)</sup> 02:40, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' because it makes sense with other Wikipedia articles. --[[User:Xicanx|Xicanx]] ([[User talk:Xicanx|talk]]) 06:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''', I do agree that "Death of George Floyd" implies a death due to natural causes. I feel that killing more accurately reflects the situation, especially given the obvious and unjustified police brutality present. Killing does not imply a deliberate intent, "Murder of George Floyd" would be a title that implies that. [[User:Devonian Wombat|Devonian Wombat]] ([[User talk:Devonian Wombat|talk]]) 08:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' "Death" is a passive word, implying "the life just ended". "Killed" is an active word, implying "something happened to stop that life at that point". Except in the most philosophical sense, it is abundantly clear that Floyd would not have died at that time if not for the actions of Chauvin. *:Even in the highly unlikely scenario that Derek's death happened to be due to some unlikely medical circumstance unrelated to the knee on his neck, it would still be the case that he was prevented from seeking aid by Chauvin, that others were preventing from providing aid by the officers on scene, and that none of the officers on scene took action to provide aid, or call for aid. As such, it is clear that, even if there needs to be some distinction that (from a legal standpoint) this may not yet be able to called a murder, it can definitely, and should definitely, be called a killing. *:Even putting all that aside, and focusing on what's been published in the media, there is support for the use of the phrase. The Guardian has an article [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/30/george-floyd-protests-latest-at-a-glance-white-house George Floyd killing sparks protests across the US: at a glance guide]. Fox40 has [https://fox40.com/news/local-news/protests-of-solidarity-surround-state-capitol-in-wake-of-george-floyd-killing/ Protests of solidarity surround Stae Capitol in wake of Geoorge Floyd killing]. Politico has [https://www.politico.com/video/2020/05/30/nationwide-protest-erupt-over-the-killing-of-george-floyd-076463 Nationwide protests erupt over the killing of George Floyd]. MSNBC has [https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/george-floyd-killing-highlights-toxic-police-culture-84119621866 George Floyd killing highlights toxic police culture]. If we need more examples, they are plentiful and not difficult to find. [[User:Aawood|Aawood]] ([[User talk:Aawood|talk]]) 09:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' There are precedents for both ways of phrasing it and the passiveness of "Death of" doesn't convey the perspective that ignited the protests. Everything that's happening as a result of George Floyd's death wouldn't have happened if he simply died. His death was caused by another person. He was killed by a police officer. Whether the killing was intentional or not is irrelevant. Whether he had underlying health conditions or not is irrelevant. George Floyd would not be dead if the police officer didn't do what he did. [[User:TJScalzo|TJScalzo]] ([[User talk:TJScalzo|talk]]) 09:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *:With the [https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html independent autopsy] that has been made public, I reaffirm my support for this move. [[User:TJScalzo|TJScalzo]] ([[User talk:TJScalzo|talk]]) 09:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong support''', and per my comment at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Floyd]], I think ultimately this page should be at [[George Floyd]] and expanded to a biography on the subject. In the alternative, a shorter bio at [[George Floyd]] with this page as the main section about his <s>murder</s>killing. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 10:49, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' The whole event hinges on the fact that Gorge Floyd was killed due to use of excessive and unreasonable force by the police. 'Death' plays into the false narrative that he just happened to die while around police. 'Killing' clarifies that the death was caused by the police, which we know to be the case. [[User talk:Melmann|Melmann]] 11:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' for now. People do call it a killing so the redirect makes sense. However, because it is not confirmed yet he was killed, whether intentionally or unintentionally, so Wikipedia should keep the title as death to stay neutral. [[User:OcelotCreeper|<span style="color:#DAA520;">Ocelot</span><span style="color:green;">Creeper</span>]] ([[User talk:OcelotCreeper|<span style="color:#DAA520">ta</span><span style="color:green;">lk</span>]]) 15:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' I understand the neutral language policy etc. However, we cannot change the reality and nature of an event to support neutral language. This is not the matter here. Right now in this wikipedia if you search 'the killing of' you can see a lot of article titles come up with it. On the other hand, it is clear in the footage that the (former) officer knew what he was doing and he did it deliberately. Police education includes CPR and information about what can kill and what happens if you cut oxygen delivery to the brain for more than 5 minutes. Even if he released pressure on his neck before he died he would acquire significant brain injury. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 15:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support:''' It is safe enough to call the situation manslaughter, so killing would be a proper title. I may partly see why people may choose to leave it as "Death", I lean more towards "Killing", since there was police brutality and non-premeditated homicide in the situation. About full on murder, however, I'd rather not rename it like that. [[User:Maese Juan 25|Maese Juan 25]] ([[User talk:Maese Juan 25|talk]]) 17:08, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' per sourcing and the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'' of "kill" not not imply intent. I support later moving the page to "murder" if the cop(s) are found guilty. [[User:TJMSmith|TJMSmith]] ([[User talk:TJMSmith|talk]]) 17:48, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' – Media worldwide has already used the word 'kill' to describe the event. Chauvin has also been arrested for murder. [[User:Nahnah4|Nahnah4]] ([[User talk:Nahnah4|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Nahnah4|contribs]]) 18:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' per above, there's not much more to be argued [[User:Leotext|Leotext]] ([[User talk:Leotext|talk]]) 18:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support.''' Clearly and obviously a killing. "Death of" is less precise. [[User:Snooganssnoogans|Snooganssnoogans]] ([[User talk:Snooganssnoogans|talk]]) 19:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' Further investigation shows that he was indeed choked to death. No need to kneel on the neck of a handcuffed person.[[User:Tinyastro|Tinyastro]] ([[User talk:Tinyastro|talk]]) 19:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support:''' Chauvin is shown kneeling on Floyd's neck to the point of being unable to breath & has been charge with third-degree murder. This is not some random death, but a deliberate killing. [[User:WakandaForever188|WakandaForever188]] ([[User talk:WakandaForever188|talk]]) 19:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''' for now, maybe later after a cause of death is more clearly determined. Right now the preliminary autopsy report seems to say natural causes, but the officer has been charged with murder, so the official record is muddled. Many such articles are labeled "Shooting of" but in this case the cause of death has not been clearly established on the record. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 20:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *<s>Oppose</s> While it seems clear he died as a result of his treatment by police, there is no consistent use of "kill" among RS, and per Awiley, "death" is used more consistently in article titles. "Death" is even used as a header in BLPs of murder victims. <u>Also, we should consider the unlikely possibility that he coincidentally died from drugs he may have been on. This is why we should resist the temptation to use OR analysis of the event.</u> [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 21:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)<small>[[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 14:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)</small> *:'''Strong support''' per autopsy reports. [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 01:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' - There's no shortage of sources describing the death of George Floyd as a killing. I understand that Wikipedia tends to prefer using as neutral-sounding of language as possible whenever possible, but calling it a killing is not ''not'' neutral. This is less about neutrality and more about semantics and sources. I can understand why some in this thread have said that Wikipedia should wait until a conviction to refer to the homicide as a murder in the title (as we can't know what charges the suspects will or will not be found guilty of), but it's just a well-documented fact that George Floyd was killed and avoiding describing his death a homicide is an erroneous thing to do. As others have pointed out, stating that he was killed doesn't even suggest that it was purposeful (e.g. accidental vehicular homicide is still killing), it simply provides more specific information. I can sympathize with the viewpoint that using the word "death" could make the article come off as having a more neutral tone, and I share the goal of making the article as neutral and accurate as possible, I simply hold the viewpoint that killing is a more accurate term and that using it does not compromise the neutrality of the article's title. Best wishes <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:Vanilla Wizard|<b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF">&nbsp;Vanilla </b>]][[User Talk:Vanilla Wizard|<b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF">&nbsp;Wizard </b>]]</b> [[Special:Contribs/Vanilla Wizard|💙]] 22:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' Video evidence unambiguously shows that the death of George Floyd was indeed a killing in that the police officer directly caused his death. According to the definition of the word, even an accidental killing could accurately be described as a killing (though this was certainly not accidental). Apparently more credible sources use the word "death" rather than "killing," but I wonder how many use words that are closer in tone to "killing," such as "murder." Moreover, virtually all credible sources, including those that use "death," clearly state that the police officer caused Mr. Floyd's death, which is the definition of the word "kill." Even if autopsy results show that asphyxiation was not the cause of death, there are other ways one could die from having someone kneel on one's neck for over eight minutes, and it would still be a killing. Additionally, said autopsy results are questionable given that Mr. Floyd's family is requesting an independent autopsy. Given that George Floyd was literally begging not to be killed, those who oppose the title change are encouraged to explain the mental gymnastics that they must perform to argue that the police officer did not cause Mr. Floyd's death. Lastly, Derek Chauvin is currently being charged for murder. "Murder" is clearly above "killing" in terms of intensity of wording. However, if Mr. Chauvin is found guilty, then the title of this page would reasonably be changed to "Murder of George Floyd." It would be strange to jump from "Death of George Floyd" directly to "Murder of George Floyd" without the reasonable middle level of "Killing of George Floyd." If not now, when there is already clear video evidence, what would be the appropriate time to transition from "Death of George Floyd" to "Killing of George Floyd" before potentially intensifying the wording to "Murder of George Floyd"? '''EDIT (1 June 2020): The independent autopsy conducted at the request of George Floyd's family has concluded that his cause of death was “homicide caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain.” Moreover, while the preliminary report from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office initially did not find asphyxia or strangulation as the cause of death, the county's full report has ruled George Floyd's death a homicide attributed to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”''' [[User:Donutzebra|Donutzebra]] ([[User talk:Donutzebra|talk]]) 23:56, 31 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' - The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, used "killing" in her condemnation of the events.<ref>{{cite web |title=UN Human Rights Chief urges “serious action” to halt US police killings of unarmed African Americans |url=https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25910&LangID=E |website=www.ohchr.org |publisher=OHCHR |accessdate=1 June 2020}}</ref> [[User:Whsun808|Whsun808]] ([[User talk:Whsun808|talk]]) 03:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' the key issue at hand here is NPOV vs. [[WP:Article Titles]]. [[WP:POVTITLE]] states {{tq|When the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title.}} Here, we have no common phrase on the level of the Boston massacre. Both phrases "killing" and "death" are used in media sources, ruling out the possibility of deciding based on usage. In [[WP:CRITERIA]], it really comes down to the "Precision" point. It is more or less unanimously agreed that this is a killing at this point, even by the more conservative sources (see [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/politics/george-floyd-tucker-carlson-rush-limbaugh.html]). Thus this phrase is more precise and at the same time still neutral, as it is a more or less universally agreed upon fact across ideologies. [[User:Sam-2727|Sam-2727]] ([[User talk:Sam-2727|talk]]) 04:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' Move to Premeditated killing/murder of George Floyd. // [[User:Eatcha|Eatcha]] ([[User talk:Eatcha|talk]]) 05:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''' So far, perhaps the most comprehensive examination of Wikipedia's editing norms on this subject is by [[User:Awilley|Awilley]] above. It seems to me that most other opposition explanations also cite Wikipedia norms. On the other hand, an enormous number of supporting explanations cite "common sense," or the video of GF's death, or the definitions of "killing" from various dictionary sources. Only a few cite the preference of many RSes, and even this is split. This argument at least addresses the Wikipedia editorial standard. After reading a few hundred positions, I am unconvinced that this group has yet surpassed the evidentiary requirement for moving an article under such deep scrutiny. I will continue to call GF's death a murder in my own speech, but this encyclopedia's responsibility is not only to avoid activism, but to avoid the appearance of activism. It's not pleasant and it doesn't make me feel good, but it's the right thing to do to oppose. [[User:Rvanarsdale|Rvanarsdale]] ([[User talk:Rvanarsdale|talk]]) 06:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *<s>'''Strong Support'''</s> '''SNOW Support''' And wait for clearer evidence before moving to [[Murder of George Floyd]]. If a man has his knee on another man's neck while the second man is screaming for help while gasping for breath, and then the second man dies of a heart failure, it's beyond dispute that he was killed. Intent is not important. Calling 'Death' a neutral term at this point is an absurdly shallow reading of the situation. Innocent until proven guilty can apply to murder, but not to killing, because killing is not necessarily a criminal charge. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 07:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::Changed to SNOW support after the independent autopsy reported homicide, which renders most of this discussion moot now. Suggest we close this as soon as possible. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' Look at the [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]]. There are other articles which start with "killing of," although for some reason the word is avoided when it comes to killing by the police. Perhaps we should also be looking at renaming other articles in which people were killed by police officers. "Death" may seem more neutral in tone, but in actuality it is not neutral in that it de-emphasizes the role which Derek Chauvin played in killing George Floyd. Killing is more accurate. [[User:Arumdaum|Arumdaum]] ([[User talk:Arumdaum|talk]]) 10:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::{{u|Arumdaum}} You need to explain why using death "de-emphasizes" Chauvin's role. I wouldn't cite Harlins article for precedent for this article. Harlins case has already run its course with convictions and official reports. At this time, we don't fully know Chauvin's role in Floyd's death; I think it's safe to say he had a significant role, but under [[WP:OR]] its not up to us its up to reliable sources. Yes a lot of reliable media sources are saying this is a killing, but some other media sources and some official reports like the autopsy don't say killing they emphasize his health conditions and possible intoxicants. Therefore, under [[WP:NPOV]] we need to balance out these two opinions out. Most importantly, what I'm trying to say is that, especially right now, Floyds death being considered a killing is disputed among credible, and it's not wikipedia job to pick a side. Now, maybe later on after everything is said in done we can have this discussion again. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 17:46, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' sanitized wording is not "neutrality", it is just whitewashing. We are not here to cater to people's feelings, we are here to present facts. He was killed. --[[User:Calthinus|Calthinus]] ([[User talk:Calthinus|talk]]) 14:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong oppose''' We need to stick with Wikipedia's convention of using "Death of" to stick to one our strongest principles of NPOV. I know many people have strong emotions about this article, but using Wikipedia to make a point is not the answer. There is nothing encyclopedic about changing the title to "Killing." It's a political statement that Wikipedia should be avoiding as much as possible. [[User:Angryapathy|Angryapathy]] ([[User talk:Angryapathy|talk]]) 18:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' — "Killing of..." killing is defined as "an act of causing death". WHERE IS THE CONTROVERSY? George Floyd wouldn't have died if the police officer hadn't kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes. "Killing of..." we already know it - whatever health conditions he might have had, he wouldn't have died if the police officer hadn't kneeled on his neck for 8minutes 46 seconds where is the controversy?? [[User:Holaholahulahop|—Holaholahulahop]] *'''Support''' See [[List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, May 2020]] where George Floyd is listed. See also [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]] and [[Killing of Peter Fechter]]. [[User:Tvc 15|Tvc 15]] ([[User talk:Tvc 15|talk]]) 20:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' as non-neutral and potentially incendiary. We are '''required by policy''' to maintain a neutral point of view, and while there is any non-trivial question about whether it's a "killing/murder" or "accidental death" or what have you, we need to absolutely remain neutral, period. I understand there is a lot of emotion surrounding this, and for good cause, I think. However, we must stay encyclopedic. Once all investigations are complete, and the dust has settled, then would be an appropriate time to consider a move such as this, but for now it's too soon. [[User:Waggie|Waggie]] ([[User talk:Waggie|talk]]) 21:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support'''. He died from these actions (see offical post-mortem), also support the title "Homicide of George Floyd" as declared by official post-mortem. [[User:Banak|Banak]] ([[User talk:Banak|talk]]) 22:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' - kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes will kill them. Per vast numbers of reliable sources, this was a killing. Not describing it as such is a dereliction of [[WP:N]]. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' It's clear to anyone that this was a killing. I'm !supporting now because [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf the official autopsy report] from the county medical examiner has confirmed that this was a homicide. [[User:Davey2116|Davey2116]] ([[User talk:Davey2116|talk]]) 23:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' - Floyd's death was not an accident, as quite a few editors have mentioned already. The murder even looks like a reference to the Kaepernick protests from a few years ago [[User:KohrVid|KohrVid]] ([[User talk:KohrVid|talk]]) 23:20, 1 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' Adding my voice to the chorus that the evidence has mounted with enough credibility that Floyd's death was a killing, whether intentional or not. Death implies too much passivity or happenstance and doesn't capture the nature of the tragic event. P.S. I would advocate for "Murder of.." but I know how ... conservative the Wiki community is (not politically but editing wise) so this is a reasonable compromise. Anyone who disagrees well... I'll let my Twitter speak on that. [[User:Jccali1214|Jccali1214]] ([[User talk:Jccali1214|talk]]) 00:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong Support''' I would support it being changed to "killed" because it is absolutely certain that he was killed by a person. "Death" implies that Mr. Floyd died due to natural and/or accidental causes. We know, based on solid evidence, that this is simply not true. If the article ''title'' says he was killed, the title would more accurately summarize the event. [[User:Ravishsingh00724|Ravishsingh00724]] ([[User talk:Ravishsingh00724|talk]]) *'''Support''' As per the sourced [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf autopsy report] and other previously mentioned sources. - [[User:Wiz9999|Wiz9999]] ([[User talk:Wiz9999|talk]]) 01:11, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong, speedy, and SNOW support''' per WP:BLUESKY and autopsy. There is consensus for this move and it should done immediately. With all due respect, [[WP:NODEADLINE]] is not applicable on this one. I'm strongly tempted to make the move myself. [[User:Feoffer|Feoffer]] ([[User talk:Feoffer|talk]]) 02:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support'''. Wikipedia should err on the side of caution, but the word 'killing' is without intent. The offical manner of death is homocide, that is, killing.[https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf] Therefore I think it is more important to phrase the article as it is reflected in the current official records. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Pabsoluterince|Pabsoluterince]] ([[User talk:Pabsoluterince#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pabsoluterince|contribs]]) 06:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> ====Tally==== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Support !! Oppose |- | 150 || 80 |} [Latest update: [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 01:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)] 100 For, 63 Against as of 11:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC). There will be errors because of the number of votes feel free to edit it. Note I only looked at bold text or text next to a built point and only in the survey section. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 11:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :Is there any robot to tally automatically? --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :{{u|RealFakeKim}}, what's this for? Requested moves go for 7 days and it has been 3. Also this is [[WP:NOTVOTE|not a vote]]. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 11:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :*An easy way to see what the generally opinion is. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 13:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :::Additionally, the addition of the word "strong" [[WP:STRONG|has no actual bearing]] on the strength of the underlying argument, which is assessed by the editor who closes the discussion and depends on how well-reasoned the arguments are in the context of [[WP:PG|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]], particularly its [[WP:NC|naming conventions]]. [[User:Mz7|Mz7]] ([[User talk:Mz7|talk]]) 17:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ::::Having said that, polls play a valuable role in Wikipedia: they highight just how misleading polls can be in identifying consensus. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 18:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :::::[[User talk:Serial Number 54129|Serial Number]] Does consensus mean you can defy a policy even if that policy isn't changed nor that policy mentions any exception? If yes, what's the point of having policies if people don't need to follow it and saying Wikipedia is not a democracy? Policies are different than guidelines which people can choose not to follow. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 18:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ::{{ping|DIYeditor}}This is not a vote-only. There were no pure votes and all votes include a statement. It is a discussion with a "support" or "oppose" at the top, it is you that understand it as a vote. --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::{{u|DIYeditor}}: Do you see only votes on this picture? [[File:Talk-Death of George Floyd 20200601.png|500x500px]] No, they all have a reason. --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::The title is [[Talk:Death of George Floyd#Survey|"Survey"]], not "Vote". --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:57, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :*Updated to show current positions. I removed Strongly Support and Strongly Oppose as they have no bearing on anything, so Support shows all supporting votes and Oppose shows all Opposing. I did this by doing a Ctrl F and subtracting all those that were stricken, or in explanation, or somewhere else on the page. [[User:AlternateHistoryGuy|AlternateHistoryGuy]] ([[User talk:AlternateHistoryGuy|talk]]) 22:42, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :*Updated count, it reflects all unambiguous votes so far. (Did not check for duplicate votes, relying on good faith.) [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 01:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Comment''' Our policy is [[WP:NPOV]] and the language of murder or killing is not neutral - is not based on facts in evidence, and does not square with our policy. IMO it does not really matter how many editors stomp their feet and demand that this title be changed to something that is not yet established and violates our policy on neutrality. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 14:00, 31 May 2020 (UTC) **What is the grounding of neutrality in your opinion? If the majority of reliable sources said that the sky was purple, would we put that on Wikipedia? No, because we are allowed to apply a bit of common sense. The most trustworthy evidence, direct videos of the event, show it to be a killing. To not abide by that bit of common sense would not be neutral. And by the way, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia made by editors. To say that the opinions of editors do not matter as much as a policy guideline is the direct antithesis of what Wikipedia is about. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 16:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :::{{ping|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo}} We follow policy on Wikipedia, as we did with [[Death of Eric Garner]] who essentially died in the same manner. Sometimes a closer has to assess opinions expressed by passionate editors and then weigh those opinions against our policy. I am not sure how to respond to your hyperbole regarding the sky is purple, but I got your point. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 17:17, 31 May 2020 (UTC) ::::{{ping|Lightburst}} Yes, I understand why policy is useful, and why looking at precedents is also useful in deciding what to do. I was using hyperbole to prove my point: policy and precedents are helpful but they should not dictate actions 100% of the time. (I think this is the idea behind [[WP:IAR]].) This is a case where they may be contradicted by common sense, which says that this is at the very least a killing. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 17:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC) :'''Oppose''' we should be following the NPOV principles set down by [[Death of Eric Garner]] or [[Death of Kelly Thomas]] etc etc. [[User:Alssa1|Alssa1]] ([[User talk:Alssa1|talk]]) 08:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - I think [[WP:NPOV]] should explain this one. Using the words “murder” and “killing” is not neutral. Then again, different political groups use different words to politicize an event like this. [[User:RedRiver660|RedRiver660]] ([[User talk:RedRiver660|talk]]) 14:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Strongly Support''' The independent autopsy calls this a homocide, so I think this is safe <ref>https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html</ref> [[User:Syryquil1|Syryquil1]] ([[User talk:Syryquil1|talk]]) 21:18, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' following two autopsies that found he was killed. – [[user talk:Anne drew Andrew and Drew|<span style="color:#074">Anne&nbsp;drew</span>]] 23:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' The police were trying to arrest Floyd, but ended up killing him instead despite bystanders telling one of the officers at the dig to "let him go". '''''[[User:Hansen Sebastian|<span style="color:DD0000">Hansen</span>&nbsp;<span style="color:BBBBBB">Sebastian</span>]]'''''<sup><span style="color:00CCFF">[[user talk:Hansen Sebastian|Talk]]</span></sup> 00:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''': the official autopsy from the county came out, with cause of death listed as "homicide". --[[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 00:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' - since this article is primarily about the events that led to his death, which was caused by another person, and meets the definition of "killing", per reliable sources. [[User:Bneu2013|Bneu2013]] ([[User talk:Bneu2013|talk]]) 01:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Oppose''': I think this would go against the previous precedent of other similar articles. It also wouldn't be neutral or unbiased. [[User:Herbfur|Herbfur]] ([[User talk:Herbfur|talk]]) 03:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong support''' As stated above, there is already precedent in articles such as [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], for example. The obvious killing is supported by the findings of the independent autopsy report released today. [[User:Buffaboy|<span style="font-weight: bold; color: #002C73;">Buffaboy</span>]] [[User talk:Buffaboy|<sup><span style="font-weight: bold; color: #EDA900; ">talk</span></sup>]] 03:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *:Note, though, that in Harlins' case, there was a conviction of the perpetrator for manslaughter. On the other hand, articles like [[Death of Kelly Thomas]] and [[Death of Eric Garner]] which Alssa1 points out above use "Death". The difference between these articles and Harlins' article? In those cases the perpetrators were not tried or convicted. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 09:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Support''' Both the public and independent autopsies have concluded that Floyd's death was a homicide and that the direct cause of death was asphyxiation due to the officers kneeling on him. He was killed. The article absolutely must reflect that. [[User:Waterfire|Waterfire]] ([[User talk:Waterfire|talk]]) 03:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' - He didn't just die randomly, he was killed. [[User:Koridas|Koridas]] <small>(...[[User talk:Koridas|Puerto Rico for statehood!]])</small> 04:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ===Discussion=== Almost every "oppose" vote argues that a pathology report is needed to ascertain whether Floyd was killed, or implies that "killing" has the same meaning as "murder." *According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'', the verb "kill" does not necessarily imply intent: {{tq|To put to death; to deprive of life; to slay, slaughter. In early use implying personal agency and the use of a weapon; later, extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an accident, over-work, grief, drink, a disease, etc.}} By contrast, "murder" implies intent: {{tq|To kill (a person) unlawfully, spec. with malice aforethought (in early use often with the additional notion of concealment of the offence); to kill (a person) wickedly, inhumanly, or barbarously.}} Whoever closes this requested move should ignore votes implying that killing and murder are the same, or arguing that a trial and murder conviction are required to rename the article to "killing of..." "To kill" and "to murder" are different verbs in the English language. *I cannot find a reliable source arguing that Floyd may have died from underlying medical conditions unrelated to the officer pressing his knee down on Floyd's neck, while Floyd begged that he was being killed, and while onlookers exclaimed that Floyd was being killed. Can someone find a source making this argument, or is this pure speculation? *Many sources refer both to Floyd's death and to his killing, e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52834685 the BBC], [https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-05-28/biden-trump-issue-very-different-calls-for-justice-in-george-floyd-killing US News], [https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-george-floyd-minneapolis-kass-20200528-6rjhnhggezgotdfiieqvcrcfpy-story.html the Chicago Tribune], [https://www.thecut.com/2020/05/man-pinned-down-by-minneapolis-police-officer-dies.html the Cut], [https://sports.yahoo.com/george-floyd-death-nfl-players-duane-brown-kaepernick-223813104.html Yahoo News], [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/entertainment/george-floyd-ice-cube-trnd/index.html CNN], [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/hundreds-protest-police-death-of-george-floyd-in-minneapolis.html NY Magazine], [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/us-police-officers-fired-rehired-why the Guardian], [https://time.com/5842687/george-floyd-killed-minneapolis-police/ TIME], [https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/pictures-hundreds-demand-justice-george-floyd-200527133305569.html Al Jazeera], [https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/28/univ-of-minnesota-police-dept-george-floyd-death-killing/ TMZ], [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-protests-turn-violent-over-minneapolis-mans-death-while-in-police/ The Globe and Mail], [https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-pictures/minneapolis-george-floyd-protest-police-killing-photos-1005678/ Rolling Stone], [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499899-doj-george-floyd-death-investigation-a-top-priority The Hill], and so forth. At this point "Killing of George Floyd" returns more google hits than "Death of George Floyd." Arguments that murder and killing are the same, that a pathology report is needed, or that reliable sources don't use this phrase, are all false. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC) *To be fair, COMMONNAME in RS is split down the middle. There are just as many sources using either title suggested to refer to the incident. This is a very old dispute on Wikipedia, going back years. Here are some examples that I have participated in: **[[Talk:Shooting_of_Ahmaud_Arbery/Archive_5#Requested_move_12_May_2020]] **[[Talk:Shooting_of_Terence_Crutcher#Requested_move_23_November_2019]] **[[Talk:Shooting_of_Atatiana_Jefferson#Requested_move_14_May_2020]] :We may need a bigger RfC to solve this often brought up dispute. <s>While I !voted oppose above,</s> I usually agree with changing these titles to "Killing of". The biggest argument RMs have faced is that there is precedent established by the many "Death of" and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Shooting+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1 "Shooting of"] article about police involved killings. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 23:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC) I've noticed a shift over the course of this Requested Move from "oppose" to "support". That implies that the facts of the event are still coming out, and this Requested Move was started too quickly. Should this be speedily closed as too soon? [[User:Benica11|Benica11]] ([[User talk:Benica11|talk]]) 00:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * Agree with the above. The facts of the case have evolved, which renders many of the initial "opposes" questionable and helps explain why there has been a shift to more support votes. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC) * Based on the understanding that this is an encyclopedia, dealing with common knowledge, not a work of forensic/scientific nature, I support. It is not an interpretation of a video, it has become common knowledge that it was a killing and its public interest (what legitimates it as encyclopedic interest) is the fact that it was an act of brutal violence, regardless technical scrutiny. So, if not 'killing of...' then perhaps it would be more clear to express the idea of 'brutal death circumstances of ...' [[User:HM7Me|HM7Me]] ([[User talk:HM7Me|talk]]) 02:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Comment''' In other cases, the way the person died is often used in the title, hence "shooting of...". How about [[Suffocation of George Floyd]] as an alternative. Just an idea. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 02:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:{{U|HAL333}} Is there are coroner's report that says he died of suffocation? If that were the case I think we would just go with "killing". Otherwise it's not demonstrated. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 03:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *::Anyone with a modicum of medical training or common sense will recognize that digging a knee into someone’s neck for a prolonged period of time will kill them. Hence Floyd’s cries that he was being killed, protests by onlookers that he was being killed, and RS statements and headlines that he was killed. As {{u|GorillaWarfare}} pointed out, we don’t speculate on whether someone died of a heart attack when they were shot to death. And I can’t find a single RS suggesting that Floyd died of some cause unrelated to the knee digging into his neck. There is none. This argument is spurious. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 04:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:::Anyone with a modicum of medical training or common sense will recognize that we do not know what he died of, and will not know until the medical examiner's report is issued. Just as some examples, we don't know if he passed out because is airway was constricted or if it was the arteries, or maybe it was the chest compression. Or maybe he was poisoned. We don't know. All we're doing for now is speculating based on videos--that is not a medical diagnosis. Anyway, it doesn't matter what we think we saw on the video. All that matters is what RSes call it, and I agree with C&C that as of now, RSes are split on the usage. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 04:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:::{{u|Darouet}} What you or I think is common sense is irrelevant. Frankly, I might get blocked if I said what I thought of the kneeling officer and what he did. Most of the RSs I've seen say "died" rather than "killed" but I haven't analyzed a breakdown by percentage. This is not a case where someone was shot, which I think would have no equivocation in the sources at all - it would be described as "killed" in every source! Instead from what I have seen most of the best sources are cautiously saying he died, responsibly waiting for a cause of death to be determined. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *::::When an article covers the "Shooting of John Doe", shooting isn't necessarily the direct cause of death. It might be massive internal bleeding, or a ruptured stomach. Whatever Floy died of directly, suffocation caused it. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 13:30, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *:::::There are a variety of ways that he could have died as a result of a knee being on his neck for several minutes, which do not necessarily have anything to do with suffocation. The most likely of those alternatives is blocked bloodflow to the brain --[[User:Gimmethegepgun|Gimmethegepgun]] ([[User talk:Gimmethegepgun|talk]]) 16:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *::::::{{u|Darouet}} and {{u|HAL333}} now that an autopsy has been released that indicates it was indeed heart disease and that there are no signs strangulation or suffocation caused it, do you see the problem with the OR assumptions you made? [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 06:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *:::::::{{u|DIYeditor}} I do. As I said before, it was just an idea. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 15:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)It seems like the titling of these sorts of articles is currently all over the place, and thus potentially subject to biases. For example, try looking up "prefix:Killing_of", "prefix:Death_of", "prefix:Murder_of", etc. in the search bar. [[User:Loooke|Loooke]] ([[User talk:Loooke|talk]]) 04:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) Statement by Hennepin County Medical Examiner on 5/28 [https://www.fox9.com/news/medical-examiner-awaiting-final-lab-results-in-floyd-case-before-making-cause-of-death-ruling]: :{{tq|"The Medical Examiner recognizes the public expectation for timely, accurate, and transparent information release, within the confines of Minnesota law," read the statement released Thursday. "However, the autopsy alone cannot answer all questions germane to the cause and manner of death, and must be interpreted in the context of the pertinent investigative information and informed by the results of laboratory studies."}} I understand emotions are running high. I understand what the video looks like. I completely understand how the video makes people feel and that it may seem insulting to say we don't know how Floyd died. The fact is, we don't have a reliable source for how he died and the various reliable sources covering this are not consistent in how they describe the events. As soon as a Medical Examiner's report is in calling this a homicide or something equivalent I will support moving this to "Killing of George Floyd". [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :Despite what someone said above about medical training, this discussion goes to show what we think we see and what is there are not the same thing. How can it be "suffocation" when the man was speaking? He ''felt'' like he couldn't breathe. He felt like his stomach and everything else hurt. Cleary he's in fear of his life. Kneeling on the man's neck from the back is not actually obstructing the airway through the mouth and nose--that's what suffocation is. What's going here is something else, like pinching nerves and/or an artery, blood flow, etc. We can't be anywhere near as specific as the cause of death. That's interpretation.[[User:ZarhanFastfire|ZarhanFastfire]] ([[User talk:ZarhanFastfire|talk]]) 09:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC) ::This is completely irrelevant: how does a pinched nerve, blocked blood flow, suffocation, etc. influence the semantic question of whether he was killed? It doesn't. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC) *{{u| DIYeditor}} Did you see Michael Baden's independent autopsy? He concluded Floyd died of asphyxiation. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">'''HAL'''</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 19:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC) Why is this a debate, he was killed. When you stick your knee into someone who is on the ground handcuffed and unable to defend himself, it is a murder, however we can’t say that until the police officer is charged. In conclusion, it is a killing, so please change the title. [[Special:Contributions/2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C|2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C]] ([[User talk:2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C|talk]]) 06:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :The Coroner just ruled that it was not an asphyxiation-caused death. [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-died-police-restraint-combined-health/] [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 22:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :::Here is the full report. [https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf] [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 23:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 ::And this is why we wait for reliable information instead of rushing into matters haphazardly. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 22:20, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :: That certainly needs to be added to the article. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 22:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :: That article explicitly attributes blame to the police officer's actions, all it says is that he wasn't strangled or suffocated in the traditional sense. It doesn't say he would have died anyway, it says the police contributed to his death. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 23:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC) :::So if he wouldn't have died ''but for the restraints'', the officer is to "blame"? Being a but-for cause doesn't make you blameworthy. Else, the shop owner was to blame for calling the cops, for without that intervention, the incident would never have occurred. It needs to be shown that what the officer did was culpable. :::For an act to be criminal, you have to show it was unreasonable and (depending on the offence) dangerous. A knee applied with enough force to effectively strangle a man is, obviously, unreasonable and dangerous. But the less force it was applied with, the less likely it was either of those two things. To be clear, I am not saying this is true. I am merely pointing out that it does in fact change things. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 00:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :::Now that we have the new autopsy report with the homicide ruling, can we please close this discussion and do the move? [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC) '''Accidentally kill''' https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/nov/29/what-happens-to-your-life-after-you-accidentally-kill-someone '''unintentional killing ''' https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/involuntary-manslaughter-overview.html No killing does not mean intentional or murder.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:14, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :*After the release of an initial medical examiner's report, the BBC nevertheless announces in the very first sentence of their article on the topic this morning [https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52857334]: ::{{talk quote|Protesters have clashed with police in cities across the US over the '''killing''' of an unarmed African-American man '''at the hands of officers''' in Minneapolis.}} ::Agreeing with {{u|Slatersteven}}, {{u|Doc James}}, {{u|NaveenNkadalaveni}}, {{u|MrX}}, {{u|HAL333}}, the ''BBC'', and a now very substantial majority commenting and voting on this RfC. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 13:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :::At its core, opposers are arguing that we don't have enough information imply causation at this time, which "killing" most certainly presupposes.I understand that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and that other RS articles have used "killing", but that does not necessarily mean it is the most accurate or neutral term. If/when the coroner confirms that the actions of the officer directly caused the death of the Floyd, I'm game for the move, but until then, I would argue that "death" is the most neutral term we can use at this time. [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 17:15, 30 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 *'''Comment''' Now that the autopsy report is out, and we have a charge, some observations. {{quote|The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death. The defendant had his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds in total. Two minutes and 53 seconds of this was after Mr. Floyd was non-responsive. '''Police are trained that this type of restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous.'''}} (emphasis added). I will point out that when referring to the medical situation, the legal principle of [[Eggshell skull]] applies - it's not even a legal defence. But we're not currently debating the legal situation of culpability, but the act of "killing" - which isn't necessarily unlawful. The autopsy suggests against "traumatic asphyxia or strangulation" - but [[Positional asphyxia]] is not discussed. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 13:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC) :Thin-skull rule means that you take your victim as you find them, as it relates to causation and the actus reus. Thin-skull is important as it can defeat the mens rea element. For example, I might slap my neighbour and he might die because I slapped him on his thin skull; but I do not have the intent to cause death or really serious harm (for the English definition of murder). In contrast, if I kill my neighbour by applying enough force to defeat an ordinarily formed skull, I am more likely to have murderous intent. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 18:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ::::Let's be clear. The ME has not ruled on a cause of death. The criminal complaint says that "The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation", and states that several factors "likely" contributed to his death. This is not a final determination of causation and we cannot go beyond these '''preliminary''' findings. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 13:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Comment''' - I already put my oppose in the survey, but I would like to elaborate on it some. We can't seem to agree fully on what the definition of "killing" is; however, we can at least agree that it means for one person to take the life of another. As of this moment, we don't know fully know if George Floyd was killed by that police officer; according to the autopsy section it doesn't appear clear what killed him. In order to remain fully neutral and stay in accordance with NPOV, we need to only base the title with the available facts. I've noticed a lot of the the supports say something like "the video is clear he was killed by that cop," it's not our place under [[WP:OR]] to decide if Floyd was killed by that officer. Yes some news sources have said that; however, I don't think those sources can be used in this context only official reports like the autopsy and later convictions. At the very least, this move needs to be closed with no consensus until we get all the facts straight. All we know is George Floyd is dead, and the title needs to reflect that fact. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 08:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support'''. I will try to limit this comment to novel arguments—note that I concur with the arguments given above; reliable sources refer to the event as the killing of George Floyd, and it is clear from the video that he was killed. "Death of George Floyd" is not a neutral title. Though it is true that the killing of a man would also be his death, Wikipedia does not exist in a vacuum, and using the term ''death'' when ''killing'' is the more common usage draws attention to itself. The title "Death of George Floyd" seems to take a side on the matter as much as "Killing of George Floyd"; though intended as a neutral description, it is distractingly obvious that the word ''killing'' has been avoided. [[User:Kilopylae|Kilopylae]] ([[User talk:Kilopylae|talk]]) 13:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :{{u|Kilopylae}} why is death not a nuetral term? You mentioned that "killing" is what's commonly used by reliable sources, by reliable sources I'm assuming you mean news/media references generally seen as credible. However, under [[WP:NPOV]] we are supposed to balance these often bias media sources with more objective sources let say like the autopsy (in my opinion the autopsy/official reports should trump media sources). A death isn't always natural; therefore, killing or even murder would fall under the term death. Therefore, "death" would please people who think George Floyd was killed and the rather minute amount of people who think he may have died from some natural or other unspecified causes. You can't say that using the term "death" is just as much picking a side as using "killing" because it's not, "death" is a broad term that fits pretty much every criteria. Also, we need to take in account precedent ([[Death of Eric Garner]]). The dictionary and precedent favor "death" as a neutral term over "killing." [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 17:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC) ::{{u|Iamreallygoodatcheckers}}, autopsies are [[WP:PRIMARY]]. It's not clear that ''The Hennepin County Medical Examiner'' is an '''independent''' source. That very issue has been raised by Mr Floyd's family, who have requested an independent autopsy. :: ::Ergo placing this questionable primary source above respected secondary sources I think would be a grave mistake. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC) {{dedent}} And, having just googled the above, I encountered: {{tq|'''An independent autopsy into the death of George Floyd found that his death was a homicide and the unarmed black man died of "asphyxiation from sustained pressure."'''}}<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref> Dedented because I think this is an important development. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Comment''' the county medical examiner's office just ruled this a homicide. There is not a single source suggesting Floyd died of natural causes, not even fringe sources which should have no bearing anyway. Why is this even still a discussion at this point? [[User:Smartyllama|Smartyllama]] ([[User talk:Smartyllama|talk]]) 22:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC) :: Source<ref> Official post-mortem declares Floyd death homicide https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52886593</ref> (I'm sure there are others...) [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 22:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC) '''Call for change of vote''' Most of the oppose votes above hinged on the fact that from neutrality considerations, we should wait for an autopsy report to indicate that the death was not from natural causes. Now that an independent autopsy has established it was a homicide<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref>, I request these members to change their votes to support. I also believe this now falls under [[WP:SNOW]], as it is difficult to argue now in good faith that it's not neutral to call it a killing. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC) : Both the official autopsy report and pathologists hired by the Floyd family, including former New York chief medical examiner Dr. [[Michael Baden]], conclude that homicide was cause of death.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Stelloh |first1=Tim |title=George Floyd's death ruled a homicide by medical examiner |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/george-floyd-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-n1221431 |website=NBC News |publisher=NBC News Digital |accessdate=2 June 2020}}</ref> Those that argue that we should wait for a jury's verdict are in error, because a jury determines whether a victim of a homicide was in fact murdered in the strictly legal sense (as opposed to, say, an accidental killing). But ''all'' homicide victims are "killed." So all who argued that we should wait for the autopsy should change their votes. : [[User:Dylanexpert|Dylanexpert]] ([[User talk:Dylanexpert|talk]]) 02:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC) '''Oppose''' Violates [[WP:MOS]]. [[User:Nightvour|Nightvour]] ([[User talk:Nightvour|talk]]) 01:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC) '''Make the move immediately'''. We like to say There Is No Deadline, but that doesn't really apply here. We have to choose between two titles, and our editors clearly favor "killing" as more befitting for all manner of reasons, particularl in light of filed charges and medical results. [[User:Feoffer|Feoffer]] ([[User talk:Feoffer|talk]]) 02:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC) {{reflist-talk}} Comment. The Medical Examiner has come to the same ruling of homicide as the private autopsy. [[User:IssaRevol|IssaRevol]] ([[User talk:IssaRevol|talk]]) 04:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Support'''. Both autopsies conclude that the death occured because of the neck compression by the law enforcement officer. The only difference is that the medical examiner's office claims that the combination of the neck compression with the underlying health problems caused the death. Also the term "death" doesn't disambiguates whether the death occurred by natural causes or not in contrary with the more clear terms like "killing" and "murder".[https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy cnn] [[User:Gnslps|Gnslps]] ([[User talk:Gnslps|talk]]) 04:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Strong Oppose:''' I feel that if we start using the word murder, killed, etc. it can be considered incite full even down the road putting us where we are now in this world. I prefer we stick with Death of as we (as a community have previously done on a lot of these types of articles. If this were to be changed as things kinda boil down to cold water and the country gets a hold on this without affecting BLP and what orange guy in the White House decides to do over the next couple of days or weeks based on his statements on June 1, 2020 I feel we need to leave this at Death of for the time being. This is also still an ongoing investigation so there will be other things that come into play I’m sure. [[Special:Contributions/2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3|2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3]] ([[User talk:2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3|talk]]) 08:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC) *'''Comment''' - I'm legitimately interested to know what a move for this article would mean for the [[Death of Eric Garner]] article, then, since the two cases are extremely similar. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 08:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Oppose''' Just see the Blacl Lives Matter-template See below): except for the [[Murder of Botham Jean]], every victim has a ''Death of X'' or a ''Shooting of X''-article. This case is not special enough to break this consistancy. [[User:Jeff5102|Jeff5102]] ([[User talk:Jeff5102|talk]]) 08:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC) * '''Strong support''' if after charges/convictions are made, but Derek literally killed George Floyd. The video footage clearly demonstrates that. One person said "video" is a piece of indispensable evidence, and can be seen by many. [[User:ROBLOXGamingDavid|ROBLOXGamingDavid]] ([[User talk:ROBLOXGamingDavid|talk]]) 09:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC) {{Black Lives Matter}} * '''Oppose''' [[Death of Eric Garner]] and [[Death of Jonny Gammage]] were both asphyxiated by police, both were labeled homicide by the coroner. These 3 cases are exactly the same. Everybody seems to be ignoring these examples when they are mentioned. Are we going to change those articles as well? [[User:Dkspartan1835|Dkspartan1835]] ([[User talk:Dkspartan1835|talk]]) 09:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Yes. Change those articles as well. Homicide is synonymous with killing, let Wikipedia say things as it is. [[User:Phonehead|Phonehead]] ([[User talk:Phonehead|talk]]) 09:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC) {{cob}} {{rm bottom}}'
Unified diff of changes made by edit (edit_diff)
'@@ -98,2 +98,619 @@ Per the closing of the Move discussion, I have posted a Category Move discussion for [[:Category:Death of George Floyd]]. Others who contributed to the Move discussion (on both sides) may wish to contribute to the category discussion. The discussion is [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_June_2#Category:Death_of_George_Floyd|here]].--[[User:Mike Selinker|Mike Selinker]] ([[User talk:Mike Selinker|talk]]) 12:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + + +== Hand In Pocket -- Not == + +Current content: "Chauvin is seen on video applying pressure with his knee to Floyd's neck while his hand is in his pocket" + +Chauvin's left hand is wearing a black glove, and his pants are also black. It may appear to many that his hand is in a pocket. But, on close watching of the entire raw video from bystander smartphone (in the first few seconds, for example)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMN35n4UVSA&bpctr=1591106067 [Video<nowiki>]</nowiki>], it is clear to me that Chauvin's left hand is in a fist and resting on his upper thigh. I have heard several commentaries that cite the hand in pocket while lamenting an apparent casual demeanor of this officer. + +This inaccuracy should be corrected. [[User:Clutterslave|Clutterslave]] ([[User talk:Clutterslave|talk]]) 14:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +:{{fixed}}. I have added this fact to the article, with a citation to the video. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 14:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +== How is the new autopsy independent when the pathologists were hired by the deceased relatives? == + +First it says "On May 30, Floyd's family's legal team confirmed that they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson to conduct an autopsy.", and then "On May 31, the independent autopsy was conducted.". How is the autopsy independent? By that logic, the first autopsy was also independent. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Anetherion|contribs]]) 10:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> + +:Dr. Wlilson is the director of autopsy and forensic services at the University of Michigan Medical School. That's independent. The county medical examiner is not independent as they work with the police. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 10:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +::"they had hired" as in they were paid to do that. How can you say that is independent? For it to be truly independent, it would have to be performed and paid for by a third party, unrelated to the whole ordeal. [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion|talk]]) 10:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::I would agree, neither are independent.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::Independent is used in the sources and has been used in such cases as long as I can remember. The Michigan Medical School is independent, unless it can be shown that they are paid to lie. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +::::"they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson", they had hired them personally, how is their workplace relevant? 1.) "sources" are not always correct, 2.) it being that way "for as long as you can remember" still does not mean it is the right way. Like I wrote above, unless it is conducted and paid for by a third party, it is NOT independent. [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion|talk]]) 11:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::::We go by sourcing, not by personal opinion of editors. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 11:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +:Its all rather academic as the second "official" autopsy has called homicide as well.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:I do agree that "independent" is probably the wrong word for it. By definition, the autopsy comes from an interested party. A "private autopsy" was used by the BBC makes more sense, imho. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 12:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +::Wikipedia goes by what the majority of sources call it. Try to understand that when the media speaks of an independent autopsy, they just mean a private autopsy independent of the official autopsy conducted by the jurisdiction's coroner, and not independent of an interested party who is paying for it. If there's a concern that this Wikipedia article is misleading the reader, we can ameliorate that by using expanded language like "an independent autopsy paid for by Floyd's family," or even "an independent private autopsy" with cites to both descriptions from the media. The only other thing I would note here is that under state law, the county medical examiner is a "neutral and independent office and is separate and distinct from any prosecutorial authority or law enforcement agency," so we wouldn't say that they aren't independent because they "work with the police," but calling the official autopsy "independent" in the article would probably just cause confusion. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::If the sourcing says "independent", then that's what the article should say. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 12:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::The law may state that medical examiners must be “neutral and independent”; but there have been scandals related to medical examiner results when police are involved. That’s one reason some people pay for independent autopsies. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 13:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +::::Sure, there have been scandals in the past, this is why legislatures have added those laws to put ethics restrictions in place. My only point there was that we can't imply here that the county medical examiner "works with the police." [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +::Update: I just noticed that someone swapped out the word "independent" with "private" 30 minutes ago, so I've added "independent" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_George_Floyd&type=revision&diff=960346944&oldid=960346782 back to the lead], such that it reads "An independent private autopsy." At this point, I think it would be preferable to just include both words rather than editors pushing to have their preferred word used while trying to exclude the other. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::Private is an odd word since the results are public and the autopsy was performed by a public school. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 13:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +::::LOL, which in the UK mean a private school. But it is off as whilst it was privately funded it was not "private".[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::::What we've got going on here is a conflation of terms. Whether or not a school is public or private is a different concept (in use of terms) in relation to whether an autopsy was an official autopsy (conducted by the authorities) versus a private autopsy (conducted by anyone else). [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +::::Private has many different senses; we shouldn't conflate them. To clarify the claim "the autopsy was performed by a public school". Are we sure the autopsy was performed by the University of Michigan? The media reports seem to suggest that Dr Baden and Dr Wilson were hired by Floyd's family's attorneys. Do we know it was done in the official capacity as faculty members of University of Michigan? Or that it was done pro bono (see: "hire" in numerous news outlets). For example, I might hire a moonlighting police officer to bodyguard me; it would make little sense to claim that my bodyguarding needs are met by a "public body". [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 14:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +OK, as others have said, lets go with what RS say, and not our own suppositions.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +== George Floyd History == + +Why is there nothing in the GEORGE FLOYD bio section of this article about his past criminal history? He was convicted of multiple things, most notably ARMED ROBBERY which is pretty significant. +Why is he presented in an incomplete manner. +All across Wikipedia in the personal section OF ANYONE i HAVE EVEN LOOKED UP THERE IS FULL DISCLOSURE, ESPECIALLY ABOUT ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH BREAKING THE LAW. +I think that there is deliberate omission. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:CiaSmi64|CiaSmi64]] ([[User talk:CiaSmi64#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CiaSmi64|contribs]]) 18:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> +:I'm sorry, but the reason that it's omitted is because this is about the ''death'' of George Floyd, not ''about'' George Floyd. Thanks, <span style="font-family:Avenir">[[User:Thanoscar21|'''Thanoscar21''']]<sub>[[User talk:Thanoscar21|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Thanoscar21|contribs]]</sub></span> 18:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:::Then why is there information about his athletic accomplishments? [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 18:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 +::::There is an RfC about it above [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Death_of_George_Floyd#RFC_on_Floyd's_criminal_past]. And of course good RS specifically ''about his death'', such as [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-who-was-he-his-friends-words this article in Guardian] and many others, do mention this episode. ''We should significantly expand his biography section and include this info''. As you noted, there is no logic to selectively hide any important biographic information. We just say what RS say ''on this subject''. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 18:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:::::I'll just add that BBC has also acknowledged this aspect of Floyd's past (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936). [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 19:03, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 +::::::Someone will probably remove it. I would wait until the closing of the RfC. But just to clarify, according to your BBC source, +::::::{{Quotation2|His life then took a different turn, with a string of arrests for theft and drug possession culminating in an armed robbery charge in 2007, for which he was sentenced to five years in prison. He became involved in his local ministry, Resurrection Houston, after his release and was intent on making changes in himself and his neighbourhood, says Mr Lillard. "While he was embracing his own life change, he was looking around at his community" ...}} +::::::This is an important info to include if anyone wants to understand what kind of person he was. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:::::::{{u|My very best wishes}}, is what kind of person he was important to understanding this incident? [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 19:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +::::::::Well, this is all in the BBC source. One should just read it further: ''"A video of Floyd decrying gun violence, believed to be filmed in 2017, has circulated on social media, in which he implored young people to "come home". His family told the Houston Chronicle he moved to Minnesota in 2018 after being encouraged by friends through a Christian work programme.'' Christopher Harris, a friend and former classmate, told US media Mr Floyd "was looking to start over fresh, a new beginning". "He was happy with the change he was making," he added.'' +::::::::So, basically, this is someone who was capable to understand his mistakes and make life better for himself and others. This is highly commendable. But without telling that he made mistakes, there is no real person, there is no character. That's why journalists from Guardian, BBC, and other sources described it. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:::::::::Yes, commendable, but the question I think was "how is that relevant with regards to his death?" Did any of that contribute to his death? Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 14:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +=="Chauvin put his full body weight on Floyd's neck"== +{{ping|Shadybabs}} You've added "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=960178183&oldid=960176432 Chauvin put his full body weight onto Floyd's neck]" directly into the lead, based on a comment in a local [[City Pages]] article, not stated in any mainstream reliable sources. That's materially misleading and would have only been possible if Chauvin had knelt with both of his knees on Floyd's neck (to put his full body weight on it). As seen in the video he has one knee on the pavement and one knee on Floyd; you have to sort out sources for NPOV, verfiability, and in this case, WP:WEIGHT (no pun intended; this is not funny stuff). Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 14:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:I agree. I've tagged it. If someone can't produce better sources, it will be removed. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 15:06, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:While I strongly believe that the article should address all aspects of the police misconduct, it should do so accurately, and should not use other wiki pages as sources. Either cite an external source and reword or remove. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 15:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:It would also have been possible if he had managed to balance himself on only one knee and having his other leg off the ground, but that obviously didn't happen either. A physical impossibility definitely needs good sources. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 16:07, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +::Thanks for tagging. Circling back just now, I see another editor has conformed the text to a better source [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=960197776&oldid=960197363 as seen here], so the problem is resolved. I was initially drawn to this issue because the original editor added the unsourced content "''Chauvin would continue to forcefully grind his bodyweight directly onto Floyd's neck as he struggled''" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=959817905&oldid=959817111 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=959821531 here] two days ago. Editors should not be making stuff up like that, especially with people's perceptions inflamed right now. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) + +:::The second autopsy is saying asphyxiation.[https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html] ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 19:42, 1 June 2020 (UTC) + +:In general, that's not exactly true. You could put 90 percent of your weight on one knee, with the other knee positioned just for balance. But sourcing is needed. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 11:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +::90% is not "full body weight", but the thrust here is that an editor was seeking to characterize the event from their POV, then looking for a source to fit that POV. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::Yes. But if you're only using the second knee for balance, it could be well above 50 percent. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 14:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +== Add Chauvin maces witness (on video) == + +{{edit semi-protected|Killing of George Floyd|answered=yes}} +Since links to FB video are now added in article, can we add the macing incident to Arrest and Death/Timeline ? At 4:32 in video, "Chauvin grabs a canister from his belt and sprays towards a witness approaching Floyd, and another witness says 'He just got maced'. Chauvin later returns canister to belt.(at 4:55) [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 14:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +:{{not done}} The link in question is to the primary source without commentary and accompanies the text talking about the primary source being created. What you want is [[WP:OR|original research]], i.e. using the same primary source to add a fact ("witness got maced by Chauvin") which the source does not support (you cannot actually see that). As such, we need a [[WP:RS|reliable]] [[WP:PSTS|secondary source]] that actually says so. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 14:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +Test [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 15:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +But the source supports these facts. The actions are audible and visible: Chauvin unclips canister from belt, moves hand towards sidewalk, audio sound of spraying noise commences, Chauvin continues to hold canister while kneeing Floyd's neck, then puts canister back on belt. Why would a secondary source be necessary? [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 15:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:If so then why have no RS noticed and commented on it?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +Very good question. I wonder about it as well. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:I think that ends this, as that is virtually an admission this is just your interpretation.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +Maybe... the macing incident can be interpreted by legal professionals as evidence of an intent to kill, and creates a possible liability issue for a published secondary source... [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +Not an admission to an interpretation. Sorry. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +:See "At one point Chauvin reached for his mace to threaten the bystanders while continuing to kneel on the man."[https://unicornriot.ninja/2020/minneapolis-police-murder-handcuffed-man-with-neck-kneel/] [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 16:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +::Not sure that is an RS, certainly not for a [[wp:blp]].[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::[[Unicorn Riot]] is definitely not an RS [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +See "Chauvin keeps his knee pressed into Floyd’s neck and Floyd stops talking. About four minutes into the video, Floyd becomes unresponsive. Bystanders approach Chauvin and the officer draws something, causing one of the people off-camera to say, “He’s got mace.”"[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/26/george-floyd-minneapolis-police-officers-fired-after-public-backlash/5263193002/] [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 16:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:That would be barley enough to say "and one person said he had drawn a mace can", in no way does it support "Chauvin maces witness" or even" Chauvin drew a maces can".[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +::I made [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_George_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=960381183 this change]. There could be more sources that discuss it. [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 17:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:::I will not revert it, even thought I said it is barely enough to pass muster (see [[wp:unue]]). I would suggest finding a few more sources before someone else does.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +{{Clear}} +== What was Chauvin's endgame? == +{{atopy +| status = +| result = [[WP:NOTFORUM]] for speculation. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 12:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +}} + + + +Perhaps editors familiar with law enforcement can answer this question. Had Floyd not expired, when would Chauvin have released his knee from Floyd? Was he waiting for backup, or Floyd to tap out, or when he had established his "superiority"? What typically happens in such a situation when death is not the outcome? Thanks, [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 10:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +:We are not a general forum to discuss this topic.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +::What is meant by {{tq|"tap out"}}? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:14, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +:::Submission. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 11:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +::::Yes, but "submission" was present. Submission was expressed verbally by George Floyd. And submission prevails when handcuffed behind one's back, prone, face down, surrounded by police officers. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC) + +::::[https://www.ctinsider.com/local/greenwichtime/article/The-Mother-Lode-As-he-lay-dying-George-Floyd-15315226.php Floyd called out to the police, addressing Chauvin with “Sir” and “Please officer, I can’t breathe.” He called out to the crowd of people watching: “They gon’ kill me.” But there was one call that will not stop echoing in my head, and that’s the call to his mother. “I can’t move … mama … mama … I can’t.”] This constitutes verbal "submission". [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +:::::Yes, we know all that. My question is, had the ambulance not been called and had he not died, how might the situation have been resolved? [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 11:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +::::::{{tq|"how might the situation have been resolved?"}} I don't know. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will weigh in. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +:::::::Let's not speculate. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:59, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +::::::::I thought the question would depend on the consequences of suspicion of attempted use of counterfeit currency, or something like that. That would be a legal question. I happen to be ignorant of the topic. Would arrest ensue? Would a court appearance be required? Etc. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 12:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC) +{{abot}} + +== Requested move 27 May 2020 == +{{rm top|'''moved'''. I'm choosing to expedite this move rather than wait the full 7 days due to sizable interest and participation. I note that many of those opposing the move did so ''before'' the Hennepin County Medical Examiner had concluded that the death was a homicide. As such and in light of this key argument, I am deeming there being sufficient consensus for moving the title. It is important to note that this assessment on my part was based on the strength of the arguments, not the aggregate tally. It is also important to mention that this expedited close was not a [[WP:SNOW]] close. While this was a lively debate, I don't think prolonging it is likely to change the outcome or would be a benefit for the project. I thank the overwhelming majority of participants for their well-thought-out arguments as well as for their civil disposition. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 11:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +:It's been suggested that I expand on my evaluation of the arguments advanced in this discussion. With respect to [[WP:COMMONNAME]], the mention by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] has been mixed, so that argument was not really weighed one way or the other in my evaluation. With respect to [[WP:BLPCRIME]], as one participant who has changed their preference from oppose to support has noted: killing is not necessarily a crime. The fact is that many participants who opposed asked to wait for the ME report, which, as mentioned, has since deemed the death to be a homicide. The arguments advanced in the discussion whose strength was given most weight in this close neither concluded that this homicide was a ''murder'' nor that it was a ''justifiable homicide.'' It was rather overwhelmingly agreed that that is a matter for the courts to decide. Those arguments only posited that, for now, the the title should reflect the official finding by the ME. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 13:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)}} + + +[[:Death of George Floyd]] → {{no redirect|Killing of George Floyd}} – While murder isn't appropriate for an ongoing investigation, "killing" seems an appropriate description of events, and is backed up by a reliable source.<ref>{{Cite news|last=Goyette|first=Jared|date=2020-05-27|title=Hundreds demand justice in Minneapolis after police killing of George Floyd|language=en-GB|work=The Guardian|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/george-floyd-killing-minneapolis-protest-police|access-date=2020-05-27|issn=0261-3077}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news|last=Sabur|first=Rozina|date=2020-05-26|title=George Floyd: Protests erupt in Minneapolis after death of black man pinned down by white police officer|language=en-GB|work=The Telegraph|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/26/fbi-investigate-death-black-man-pinned-white-police-officer/|access-date=2020-05-27|issn=0307-1235}}</ref> On the other hand, other sources call it a "death".<ref>{{Cite news|date=2020-05-27|title=Death of US black man in custody sparks clashes|language=en-GB|work=BBC News|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097|access-date=2020-05-27}}</ref> As such, I'm <s>'''neutral'''</s> myself, but think that a discussion is appropriate. +{{reftalk}} +– [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC) +:: Pinging participants in "murder" section - {{ping|Jorge1777|Starship.paint|AzureCitizen|Ergo Sum}}. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC) + +{{cot|Discussion collapsed to aid readability of page}} +===Survey=== +====First convenience section==== +* '''Oppose''' - wait for the autopsy results so that we know whether or not he was killed. [[User:Jim Michael|Jim Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim Michael|talk]]) 19:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC) +* <s>'''Wait for autopsy''' per above.</s> [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 20:16, 27 May 2020 (UTC) +** <s>'''Oppose''' Due to the preliminary autopsy finding that strangulation and asphyxiation were not the cause of death, I think we must let a jury decide whether this was a killing or not. Less would be a plain BLP violation against the accused at this time. I am open to changing this if more information comes available.</s> [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) Struck due to both reports terming this a homicide. 05:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +** '''Comment''' Because of the incredibly bad treatment of Floyd I am genuinely sorry to have to make this [[WP:BLP]] (particularly [[WP:BLPCRIME]] "presumed innocent") and [[WP:RS]], [[WP:NPOV]] ([[WP:DUE]]) policy argument, but I need to make another point. +*:As of 22:29, 30 May 2020 (you may need to click on "tools" on Google to see the tally): +*:*Google news search results in title over past 24 hours for "killing of george floyd": [https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22killing+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 175] (and many of these refer to protests, speaking to the intent of the protests) +*:*Google news search results in title over past 24 hours for "death of george floyd": [https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22death+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 1410] +*:We go by reliable sources most of all, and here it is clear the reliable sources are cautiously calling this a death. Many of the arguments below are based on emotion and [[WP:OR]] of the video. Again I am truly sorry to have to take the position. I do not want to take it. I am forced to take this position by policy. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 22:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*:*I understand why we go by reliable sources. But if common sense tells us that it is a killing, it is a killing no matter what reliable sources are calling it. We wouldn't say the sky is purple just because reliable sources say so. I hope this isn't inappropriate, but I would cautiously say [[WP:IAR]] supports my point. This is an encyclopedia, but it also does not simply repeat what sources say with no further examination. I believe if common sense leads us to contradict what sources are saying, that is okay. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 01:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*::{{u|DIYeditor}}, I don't mean to badger, but CNN is reporting that the independent autopsy requested by Mr Floyd's family has found that the death was a homicide.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref> +*::[[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 20:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*::{{u|DIYeditor}}, since your main objection to the move is now void, with the newly published independent autopsy report, I hope you sincerely consider changing your vote. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*:::{{u|Bubka42}} and {{u|Bellezzasolo}}, my tally of the overwhelming use of "death" in Google news articles still stands as of now, please refer to the links I gave above. I will consider again whether we should simply call a spade a spade in this case and go with "killing" but I have trouble seeing how we can ignore the cautious phrasing of the overwhelming majority of news articles on this topic (assuming my test for that is valid). [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 04:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*:::'''Explain striking !vote''': I will go ahead and stick to what I originally said which was wait for autopsy. I have reservations about deviating from the phrasing used in most reliable sources, but {{u|Darouet}} has conflicting information, and most of all I don't want to be "that guy" who opposed calling a killing a killing. Killing someone isn't in and of itself a crime so we are not accusing anyone of having committed a crime. Two autopsies say homicide. So I am leaving this as a "comment" with no !vote. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 06:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' Consistency, Articles about similar events are called death not murder or killing. Unless convicted or murder no need to change,[[User:Life200BC|Life200BC]] ([[User talk:Life200BC|talk]]) 20:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC) +*: This is demonstrably untrue. [[:Category:Deaths by person in the United States]] contains 212 articles with titles referring to "murder", another two referring to "killing" and a further 31 referring to "shooting" and 11 to "assassination" (which obviously aren't alleged in this case), while only 81 (including this one) refer to "death", of which many of the deaths are not killings of any sort. It is fair to question whether the burden of proof that this death was a killing has yet been met to [[WP:BLP]] standards but as soon as the cause of death is established to such standards it is absolutely consistent to refer to it as a killing in the title, if not specifying the type of killing. [[User:Bigbluefish|Bigbluefish]] ([[User talk:Bigbluefish|talk]]) 17:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now'''. Per DIYeditor, definitively describing this as a "killing" would be premature until the medical examiner/coroner's report says so. [[User:Ergo Sum|'''<span style="color:#0645AD">Ergo Sum</span>''']] 21:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC) +*''' Oppose '''- Death is the most neutral language, and should be used until more information is available. --[[User:Jax 0677|Jax 0677]] ([[User talk:Jax 0677|talk]]) 21:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose'''. "Death of" is the most appropriate term, at least for the time being. If the officer is charged or convicted at a future date, we can reassess. Though it certainly seems likely that he died as a result of the officer's actions, we don't technically know what he died from until we get the full autopsy report. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 21:50, 27 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' — "Killing of..." is commonly used by the media [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/27/us/lebron-james-george-floyd-spt-trnd/index.html][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/george-floyd-killing-minneapolis-protest-police][https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-pictures/minneapolis-george-floyd-protest-police-killing-photos-1005678/]. This isn't a proposal to rename the article to "Murder of..." and there's no controversy about why he died in a general sense, even before a pathology report is released. For this reason the name change doesn't depend on whether an officer has been charged with murder or what the specific physiological cause of death was: you can die in many ways when someone is kneeling on your neck. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 22:05, 27 May 2020 (UTC) +::After some time has passed, I find that the case for moving is stronger than before: +::'''[[WP:RS]]''' — The [[LexisNexis|NexisUni]] database reports over 10,000 newspaper articles in the last week describing George Floyd as having been killed (accounting for duplicates). High quality sources like the [[BBC]] and the ''[[The New York Times]]'' describe the death as a killing, e.g. BBC: {{tq|Protesters have clashed with police in cities across the US over the '''killing''' of an unarmed African-American man at the hands of officers in Minneapolis}}[https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52857334]; ''NYT'': {{tq|8 Minutes and 46 Seconds: How George Floyd Was '''Killed''' in Police Custody}} [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-investigation.html]. While thousands of sources describe Floyd as having been killed, I can find only two dubious sources arguing he may not have been [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-died-police-restraint-combined-health/][https://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/what-will-investigators-look-for-in-the-death-of-george-floyd-J7t5d8sJDN5wPQH1/]. +::'''[[WP:NPOVTITLE]]''' — As mentioned by many editors here, the term "death of..." is a [[WP:WEASEL]] phrase that obscures Floyd's killing, and by implying the possibility of natural death is non-neutral. As pointed out below, in the [[Oxford English Dictionary|English language]] "killing" does not imply intent to kill and is not equivalent to murder: {{tq|"...any means or cause which puts an end to life...}}" The move would therefore result in a more neutral title. +::'''[[WP:NAMINGCRITERIA]]''' In addition to being supported by reliable sources, the title "Killing of George Floyd" meets every one of our naming criteria, including [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]], [[WP:NATURALNESS]] and [[WP:CONCISE]]. "Killing of George Floyd" is linguistically and factually more [[WP:PRECISE]] than "Death of George Floyd," and while more death articles are titled "Death of..", many death articles are titled "Killing of..." (e.g. [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], [[Killing of Naqeebullah Mehsud]], [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]], [[Killing of Peter Fechter]], [[Killing of Heidi Hazell]], etc), and thus this article if moved would be [[WP:CONSISTENT]] with practice here. +::'''[[WP:CONSENSUS]]''' — Recognizing these principles, right now wikipedia editors support a move by a margin of nearly 2:1 (140 in support of a move, compared to 75 opposing, by my tally). +::On the basis of descriptions by reliable sources, neutrality, article naming criteria, and consensus, I still think this page should be moved. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' Maintain neutral language. [[User:KidAd|KidAd]] ([[User talk:KidAd|talk]]) 22:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' per [[Death of Eric Garner]], a case that is ''extremely'' similar, plus [[WP:BLP]] and neutrality concerns. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 00:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' “Killing of...” is sensationalist. “Death” will suffice per Wikipedia’s neutrality policy. [[User:Beemer69|<span style="color:black">'''sixty'''</span><span style="color:darkred">'''nine'''</span>]] [[User talk:Beemer69|<small><span style='color:darkblue;text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em black'><sup>'''• whaddya want? •'''</sup></span></small>]] 01:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' Maintain factual language. "Killing of" is the common language when the individual's death is the direct result of another individual's actions, whereas "Death of" is more common for natural or accidental causes. The individual in question was killed, I don't think there is any doubt about that. "Murder of" would be prejudicial and inappropriate until such time that criminal proceedings begin/conclude.[[User:CanadianWikiUser|&#42;BrandonsLe*]] ([[User talk:CanadianWikiUser|talk]]) 01:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*<s>'''Oppose''' – While I agree with the argument in the case of a fatal shooting, this is too much/too soon for a case such as this. We should at least wait for a finding of homicide by the medical examiner.</s> ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 02:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +**'''Support''' – Whether or not the police officer is guilty of crime, it is clear now that he caused the death, therefore killed George Floyd. "Killing of George Floyd" is <s>not</s> an appropriate title for this article. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*** {{ping|Coffeeandcrumbs}} I think you may have typo'd — your !support and "is not an appropriate title" appear to contradict eachother 😊 — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; please &#123;&#123;[[Template:ping|ping]]&#125;&#125; me in replies)</small></span> 10:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +****Thanks, fixed. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 15:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose'''. "Killing" is defined as [https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/killing an act in which someone is deliberately killed]. At this time, there is no evidence that Chauvin deliberately intended to kill Floyd. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:This is simply NOT true. Killing can literally be either accidental or deliberate. Murder is the specific term that precisely refers to deliberate killing. This is why the term "homicide" is so often used in early reports - because it specifies that a death was caused by another person but makes no statement on whether that death was accidental or premeditated. I support changing the article to "the killing of George Floyd," because his death WAS a homicide, full stop. Whether the killing was murder or not is what is up for debate, not whether he WAS killed. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03|2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03]] ([[User talk:2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03#top|talk]]) 01:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)</small> +*:While I agree with your !vote, that is not a good definition of killing. If you hit someone with a car and they die, you killed them, even without intent. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/killing A simple and better definition]: 1: the act of one that kills. From [[Oxford Dictionary of English]]: an act of causing death, especially deliberately. So maybe in British English it is more considered to mean a deliberate act? ODE only says "especially deliberately" though, not exclusively. OED says only: 1. a. The action of the vb. kill, in various senses. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 02:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' and snow close until after both autospy and any conviction. Despite the video being as close to direct support that the cops actions led to the complications to his death there may be other factors at play that the cops only made it worst but were not the cause. Even if it was determined if the cops were the direct cause of death, then it is a matter of the circumstances of the arrest that may have given reason to do what they did (very unlikely but we are wikipedia and need to stay neutral here and cannot presume guilt). So until these events happen, this must stay at "Death of..." --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 02:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose, for now''' until an autopsy. I'd think it'd be biased to declare it a killing unless the autopsy clears Floyd of any possible underlying conditions, regardless of opinions on the video. [[User:Fernsong|Fernsong]] ([[User talk:Fernsong|talk]]) 04:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' - true, the death could be classified as culpable homicide or homicide, depending on the autopsy and the policemen’s motives, but "killing" should not be added unless there is proof that the policemen intended to kill him. [[User:RedBulbBlueBlood9911|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:#00a2ff">RedBulbBlueBlood9911</span>]]&#124;[[User talk:RedBulbBlueBlood9911|'''<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:DarkBlue">Talk</span>''']] 06:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' - Death seems more encyclopedic and neutral; killing implies culpability. [[User:Ovinus Real|Ovinus Real]] ([[User talk:Ovinus Real|talk]]) 06:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support'''. There is absolutely no question that he was killed and that there is culpability. Millions of people have witnessed his killing, recorded in detail on video. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 07:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support'''. Death implies that it was not caused by another person, while killing is when one person harms another. [[User:Tbrechner|Tbrechner]] ([[User talk:Tbrechner|talk]]) 07:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:"Death" implies nothing but that the person is deceased. There is no evidence I can find that "death" is only used for cases without outside causation. Do you have such evidence? In fact, there is a reason why terms like "natural death" and "suicide" exist to differentiate from just "death". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' for now per WWGB. Even if that definition isn't very good, the fact remains that "killing" carries the connotation of deliberateness. However, as this is an American topic, the American definition of "killing" should be used. As such, if the (significant) majority of RS use the term "killing of George Floyd" I support changing the name in the future. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 08:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +::See my post below: contrary to your assertion, in the English language, murder implies deliberateness, but killing does not. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +:::Killing most certainly implies deliberateness and intent. Until an autopsy verifies the true cause of Floyd's death, we cannot maintain a neutral POV and at the same time insinuate cause, when we do not know the cause. [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 01:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 +::::"Killing" does not imply intent to kill. According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'': {{tq|To put to death; to deprive of life; to slay, slaughter. In early use implying personal agency and the use of a weapon; later, '''extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an accident''', over-work, grief, drink, a disease, '''etc.'''}} -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:::::{{u|Darouet}}, killing implies that a crime has taken place and that someone is guilty of committing the crime, whether it is manslaughter or murder, and associating that with a living person without a conviction is against [[WP:BLPCRIME]]. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 21:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:::::No it doesn't. There are plenty of ways to kill someone without committing a crime: self-defense, war, [[justifiable homicide]]. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 02:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +::::::The issue is not criminality, but intent. If a police officer shoots someone wrongfully, they were using deadly force, which demonstrates an intent to cause death. To the best of my knowledge, the force used against Floyd was not considered deadly force (at least, insofar as it is defined by rules of polce conduct) so it is not our place to prescribe intent to kill. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 12:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +:::See WWGB's comment above. The fact that ''some'' dictionaries define "kill" as implying deliberateness means that "kill" has the connotation of deliberateness. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 12:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose'''. Death sounds more neutral. [[User:Infernape612|Infernape612]] ([[User talk:Infernape612|talk]]) 08:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose:''' We are not a jury to decide whether it was a culpable offense (or not) to the point of a homicide. "Death" is by far more neutral for an encyclopedic article.--[[User:Deepak G Goswami|Deepak G Goswami]] ([[User talk:Deepak G Goswami|talk]]) 08:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support:''' The guy was on the floor with a police officer's knee on his neck, telling them "I can't breathe" and "Don't kill me" until he passed out and died. Regardless of their intention, the police officers caused the death of this man - looks like a killing to me. --[[User:Xwejnusgozo|Xwejnusgozo]] ([[User talk:Xwejnusgozo|talk]]) 08:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:"Looks like to me" is not an accepted scientific method of determining causation, especially not for Wikipedia which relies on reliable sources. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*::{{ping|SoWhy}} Dude quit being such a condescending smart-ass. You deliberately ignored his analysis and only used his conclusion as though that was the only thing he said without backing up why he concludes that. He clearly stated REASONS before concluding "Looks like a killing to me". Do you not know how conslunsions work? First you state reasons then you conclude by saying what your analysis shows. [[Special:Contributions/94.175.64.92|94.175.64.92]] ([[User talk:94.175.64.92|talk]]) 20:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::There is nothing condescending about it. Analyzing a primary source and reaching your own conclusion - valid or otherwise! - is what we call [[WP:OR|original research]]. This core policy explicitly states that {{xt|Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation}}. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 21:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*::{{ping|SoWhy}} Regardless of the wording I used, it should be blindingly obvious to everyone who saw the video: the man did not just ''die'', he died as a result of the actions of the police officers, ie. they ''killed'' him. --[[User:Xwejnusgozo|Xwejnusgozo]] ([[User talk:Xwejnusgozo|talk]]) 12:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::Many reliable sources conclude the very same, describing Floyd's death as a "killing." -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*::::{{re|Darouet}} But the vast majority does not, which is also reflected in the article, which at this time contains 3 sources that use the word "killing" but 45(!) sources (if I did count right) that use the word "death". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 06:00, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' In my opinion saying it was a Death violates [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Killing is deffonatly more appropriate and [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 09:16, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' per precedent ([[Death of Eric Garner]]) and reasons given above. If and when someone is convicted for causing this death - and reliable sources start using another word(!) - we can reconsider. At this point, none of the sources in the article use "killing" (at least in the title) and most sources I can find go with "Death" (e.g. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/demonstrators-rally-over-death-of-george-floyd-who-died-in-police-custody/2020/05/26/fb67a961-aed3-4173-bdd8-7b230abb105a_video.html] [https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-death-of-george-floyd-in-context] [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/gallery/2020/may/27/protests-in-minneapolis-over-death-of-george-floyd-after-arrest-in-pictures] [https://www.npr.org/2020/05/27/863422803/how-minneapolis-communities-react-to-george-floyds-death?t=1590661206106] [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/us/george-floyd-minneapolis-death.html]). Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:Reaffirming my opposition. Unless the victim was shot (in which case "Shooting of" is used), ''basically all'' comparable articles (see for example the list in {{tlx|Black Lives Matter}}) use "Death of" ''until the perpetrator has been convicted'' (or found guilty but not criminally responsible).{{pb}}Only when there is a conviction the title is or is changed to "Murder of" or "Killing of" (e.g. [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Ilan Halimi]], [[Killing of Tim McLean]], [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shooting_of_Jordan_Edwards&oldid=892563238]).{{pb}}This is imho in line with [[WP:BLPCRIME]] which explicitly says {{xt| For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction. }} Neither an autopsy report nor a 3rd degree murder charge satisfy these requirements. When it comes to BLPs, we should err on the side of caution, even if they are credibly accused of killing another person.{{pb}}And last but not least, Wikipedia is a tertiary source. We should go by the terminology reliable secondary sources use. If one searches GNews for sources that do ''not'' mention "killing", one gets [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+-%22killing%22 ~192 million hits]. Searching for sources that do mention "killing", one gets [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+%22killing%22 ~104 million hits], i.e. only half as many (also considering that some are only using "killing" in quotes). If the usage is apparently 2 to 1 against "Killing" in news sources, we should go with the majority. Even after the autopsy was released, the apparent majority of such sources still refer to it as the "death" of George Floyd (e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52886593 BBC], [https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html CNN], [https://indianexpress.com/article/world/family-autopsy-floyd-asphyxiated-by-sustained-pressure-6438843/ The Indian Express], [https://news.sky.com/story/live-protests-continue-across-us-following-death-of-george-floyd-11998933 Sky News], [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/california-george-floyd-protests.html NYT], [https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-protests-george-floyd-laquan-mcdonald-police-deaths-20200602-rois6ifmpbh2nm4wt5vrhcvyrm-story.html Chicago Tribune], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-floyds-death-was-a-homicide-according-to-two-autopsies/2020/06/01/1d5b313a-a43b-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html WaPo]). {{pb}}Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*{{Strikeout|'''Oppose''' per SoWhy above [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 10:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)}} +:*Now changing to '''Strong Support''' - clear killing now as more details come out, as well as the 3rd degree murder charge [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 19:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' Floyd was brutally murdered in front of a crowd of horrified bystanders as he begged for mercy, resulting in the firing of those four officers, international outrage and violent protests and demonstrations all over Minneapolis. This wasn't some accidental sudden "death", it was a literal ''killing''. [[User:PlanetDeadwing|PlanetDeadwing]] ([[User talk:PlanetDeadwing|talk]]) 10:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:We don't have the autopsy results & no-one's been charged. It would be inappropriate to say at this stage that he was killed, let alone murdered. We don't want to prejudice any criminal proceedings. [[User:Jim Michael|Jim Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim Michael|talk]]) 11:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' While Floyd was definitely killed, Wikipedia precedent is that the title is 'Death of' rather than 'Killing of' or any similar title. While this was a killing, this is a vote purely on precedent. [[User:AlternateHistoryGuy|AlternateHistoryGuy]] ([[User talk:AlternateHistoryGuy|talk]]) +<s>*'''Snow Support''' Hundreds of sources are calling it a killing, including [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/27/george-floyd-sister-police-officers-should-be-charged-with-murder in the title]. I see no merit in the precedent argument. An accidental death caused by a choke on someone who wouldn't let themselves be cuffed has no relation to officers killing a cuffed person who on all available videos didn't resist, merely begged for his life & pleaded for his mommy. They mocked him while he was dying. Even the Donald has said justice is going to be served on those guys. Presenting a topic in a way that's considerably less accurate & compassionate than president Trump does is a little disconcerting. He didn't just die, he was killed, current title is almost "fake news". [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 12:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +::Upgrading to Snow support per the murder charge, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:Weight & WP BLP. (BLP per due respect to the victims family, & also as comparing this to an accidental death where the suspect wouldn't let himself be cuffed appears almost borderline defamation to the x cop involved.) [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 19:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC) </s> Per [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSm0Nuqomg&t=55 new evidence] my rationale is no longer entirely correct, so striking vote. [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 09:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose'''. Articles like this go through a name change progression as events unfold in due course, i.e., an autopsy is released that establishes the official cause of death, potential arrests are made, and a possible trial and conviction for murder. Logical RM discussions based on reason can proceed from an informed standpoint as each milestone is reached, with potential titles like "Killing of..." and "Murder of..." etc. But until then, we should follow our usual process of waiting for the right preconditions for RS, BLP, and NPOV policy reasons. Arguments from emotion and compassion may be noble sentiments and "feel right" to some editors, but they are not based in logic. As unsatisfying as it is, patience is required for us to get the article title right at the right time. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' George Floyd was killed, this was caught unambiguously on video, and numerous outlets have described it as a "killing". "Murder of" would be an entirely separate story, because it would be inappropriate until the officer(s) are charged and convicted, but "Killing of" is clearly appropriate, in the same way that the title "[[Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery]]" is appropriate. <b>[[User:TheTechnician27|<span style="color: #00a9ff"><i>TheTechnician27</i></span>]]</b> [[User talk:TheTechnician27|<span style="color: blue">(Talk page)</span>]] 12:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' It's too early for this. Once we get the autopsy and charges/convictions, I think it will be appropriate to move it, but not right now. [[WP:BLP]] definitely applies here as well. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 13:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:Reaffirming my opposition in light of the charges. [[WP:BLPCRIME]] is a policy that must be considered. {{!xt|For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in '''any''' article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.}} As hard as it may be for some people to realize, the officers are living individuals and are innocent until proven guilty. Wikipedia is not a court of law nor is it a platform for righting great wrongs. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 21:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' US English speakers need to be very careful to maintain neutrality, which means political neutrality in this case. If you don't know what that means, or have doubts, then step aside please. Also, it is a great time to look at the international coverage in cases like this. The UK Guardian uses killing https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/27/george-floyd-sister-police-officers-should-be-charged-with-murder. It seems very simple: there was a killer and there was the killed, this death was not caused by unknown or other circumstances. [[User:Hesperian Nguyen|Hesperian Nguyen]] ([[User talk:Hesperian Nguyen|talk]]) 13:09, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose'''. Conservative, minimal assertions are best concerning the title of the article. We should not be aiming for a maximally inflammatory title. The title of an article doesn't aim for maximum sensationalism. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 13:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strongly support'''. The current title just makes Wikipedia sound mealymouthed to me. Rather than looking for precedent in the title "Death of Eric Garner" (perhaps overly cautious even in that case), our comparison ought to be with [[Death of Alan Kurdi]]. The death in question here was certainly caused: causing death is killing. [[User:Ph7five|- phi]] ([[User talk:Ph7five|talk]]) 13:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support'''. I think that 'killing' is perfectly neutral because that's precisely what it was. Murder is not appropriate yet, and might not be even if the perpetrator in question is found guilty, but killing implies a clear causal relationship in this case that Wikipedia should recognise. 'Death' is too transactional and considering the video footage and aftermath, wouldn't do justice as to WHY this incident has notoriety in the first place. [[User:LeoC12|LeoC12]] ([[User talk:LeoC12|talk]]) 13:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strongly support'''. I agree the current article title sounds mealymouthed. A killing is what occurred-- "killing" is a distinct term from "murder"-- and thus the article title should be changed to reflect this occurrence, just like the "[[Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery]]" affirms that particular event as a shooting. Furthermore, I fail to see how calling it a killing influences thought versus accurately describing what happened. I will feel even more strongly about this when the autopsy inevitably confirms the cause of death. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f]] ([[User talk:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|contribs]]) </small> <small>— [[Special:Contributions/2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f]] ([[User talk:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|talk]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small> [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 18:47, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Reluctant support'''- ideally we'd just move it to [[Murder of George Floyd]] immediately, but the section above suggests that that wouldn't be possible without a change to BLP, so "killing" is the next-best alternative. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans">[[User:Chessrat|<span style="color:#C90">Chessrat</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Chessrat|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]], [[Special:Contribs/Chessrat|<span style="color:#f78">contributions</span>]]) </sup></span> 14:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' as it is clear this person was killed, and backed by reliable sources, death just implies that it wasn't done by a person (i.e it happened due to an illness, etc., not the case). I hold the opinion that we'll eventually move this to [[Murder of George Floyd]], but of course it's too early to do this until an investigation is done. [[User:GoodCrossing|GoodCrossing]] ([[User talk:GoodCrossing|talk]]) 15:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' as the video had clearly shown everything needed, fulfilling the chronology of his death per the previous requests of multiple users here. However, I must say that "killing" is too much of a sensationalized term for me. In replacement for a more neutral-sounding title, I'd opt for a "Murder of____" heading instead of the current suggestion [[User:Azurevanilla ash|Azurevanilla ash]] ([[User talk:Azurevanilla ash|talk]]) 15:23, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' at this time. Key words highlighted for emphasis. Until the report comes out, despite with the media is hyping it up to be, it could be anything from murder to alcohol poisoning, drug abuse/overdose, or a stroke/heart attack. [[Special:Contributions/172.101.5.82|172.101.5.82]] ([[User talk:172.101.5.82|talk]]) 15:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*: According to police, Floyd was in a nearby car and "{{Highlight|appeared to be under the influence}}". A spokesman for the police department said the officers ordered him to exit the vehicle, at which point he "physically resisted". +*: According to the Minneapolis police, officers "were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he {{Highlight|appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance.}}" <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/172.101.5.82|172.101.5.82]] ([[User talk:172.101.5.82#top|talk]]) 15:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)</small> +*::That's what the police claimed before video evidence came out... which media universally acknowledge directly contradicted police statements. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*<del>Oppose for now</del> - We need to wait for the majority of RSes to refer to it as a "killing" before we can. If the medical examiner rules this as a homicide, the RSes will likely start using "killing" instead of "death", at which point we should change the title, but until then, we should continue to follow the sources and use "death". It seems we go through this every time there is a new article about a suspected murder, and I wish experienced editors would take on board that we waste our resources when we make premature move requests or have lengthy arguments like this, especially in the first few days. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 16:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +**I'm going to be a real outlier here: it's now a murder case called ''State v. Derek Chauvin'' [http://mncourts.gov/media/StateofMinnesotavDerekChauvin.aspx]. "The death of George Floyd" is the murder alleged in State v. Derek Chauvin. Because this is an encyclopedia, I think articles about notable murder cases should be named after the murder case, and not "murder of [victim's name]" or "killing of [victim's name]". So, I'd '''support a move to [[State v. Derek Chauvin]]'''. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 04:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +::*{{u|Levivich}}, what about [[WP:COMMONNAME]]? "Oppose for now" makes sense to me I think<s>, isn't "death" what most sources use at the moment?</s> [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 19:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC) <small>[[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 20:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)</small> +*'''Oppose''' due to the lack of information. [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 17:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong oppose''' until we have confirmation. [[User:Spengouli|Spengouli]] ([[User talk:Spengouli|talk]]) 17:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' killing or murder, as the event in question is his murder, the act of killing him, not his death. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 17:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:{{u|Ɱ}}, do you have access to an autopsy report that the rest of us don't? While it is very likely that the pressure on his neck killed him, there is no way to be certain until that report comes out. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 20:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*::[[WP:BLUESKY]], the video is sufficient proof-saying he couldn't breathe before dying. It's public knowledge, not disputed by any credible sources. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 03:11, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::[[Correlation does not imply causation]]. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 05:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*::::Your failure to accept indisputable evidence, a video recording of his murder, shocks me. When Trump finally is recorded shooting someone on Fifth Avenue, I'll remember not to list him as a murderer until he's convicted. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 06:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::::It's not a failure to accept evidence to point out that two events happening at the same time does not mean that one caused the other. And yes, per [[WP:BLPCRIME]] you would indeed be incorrect to list Trump as a murderer in this hypothetical scenario. I understand the general sentiment behind this request and I truly sympathize but we cannot forget that even those police officers involved are relatively unknown living people for whom our policies require a presumption of innocence "unless a conviction has been secured" (per [[WP:BLPCRIME]]). I have not seen any argument so far as to why this core policy should be ignored in this case. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:::::: Saying Floyd was killed isn't accusing anyone of a crime. There are loads of legal scenarios in which someone can kill someone without committing a crime. Calling this article the "murder of" would be accusing someone of a Crime, and then I'd agree we have to wait until a conviction happens. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 15:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' - Normally I would be neutral on this but there's clear cut evidence on video. That means that I'm supporting it. [[User:Jdcomix|Jdcomix]] ([[User talk:Jdcomix|talk]]) 18:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' - the video is enough evidence and was published, the fact is of public knowledge The article is about the killing, not the death as mentioned before [[User:HM7Me|HM7Me]] ([[User talk:HM7Me|talk]]) 18:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:See [[WP:OR]] - basing an article title on your own personal interpretation of a video is not acceptable. Cheers, [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 18:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*::As I pointed out in my comment above, many reliable sources are describing Floyd's death as a killing, so such a label does not rely upon OR. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 19:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now''' the death looks like a murder. But I will wait until we have all of the facts about the death. There may be some mitigating factor as of yet unknown. [[WP:NORUSH]] probably applies to this. We can always change it later. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 19:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:This proposal is to change the name to "Killing," not "Murder," which is something entirely different. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 19:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*::{{ping|Darouet}} That is a [[Distinction without a difference|distinction without a difference]] [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 02:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::{{ping|Lightburst}} No it's not. A killing means that someone was killed by the actions of someone else. A murder is when they are legally responsible for that killing. Some killings are not murder, most obviously self-defense --[[User:Gimmethegepgun|Gimmethegepgun]] ([[User talk:Gimmethegepgun|talk]]) 05:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*::::{{ping|Gimmethegepgun}} Meh. Obviously there is not support for the change at this point. Maybe later. Until then this is a pedestrian argument and it is just quibbling over semantics. "Death" is appropriate until we have more information. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 14:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Weak support''' - While it is somewhat premature to call it an act of murder, the general consensus right now is that it is a murder. Unless a source comes out and proves the contrary, I think it is safe to assume that the currently provided evidence is correct. [[User:KevTYD|KevTYD]] <small>([[User talk:KevTYD|wake up]])</small> 20:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' - The discussion is not about whether he was murdered, as the motives of the officers are unknown so far. However, I believe it is clear from the evidence provided that Floyd's death was purposeful on the part of the officers, and that evidence suggesting he died of other causes is shaky at best. --[[User:Lugnutlarry|Lugnutlarry]] ([[User talk:Lugnutlarry|talk]]) 20:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' - Per {{u|Darouet}}'s reasoning in discussion below, arguments opposed have little basis. Further, agree with {{u|RealFakeKim}} above: Saying we need to wait for law enforcement charges saying it was a Death violates [[WP:WEIGHT]] and "killing" is more common and therefore better for Wikipedia per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. —[[User:Shrinkydinks|Shrinkydinks]] ([[User talk:Shrinkydinks|talk]]) 20:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Oppose''' - Killing implies the article is about a very small subcategory of death--the action of killing. If the article is about the ''killing'', how can we justify putting the protests, lawsuits, etc. in this article? Death, on the other hand, is an all-encompassing title for this topic. Protests are related to the death. (Nobody can protest against the ''killing'' which has already been done). Lawsuits are related to the death. Similar articles also start with ''Death''. For example, the [[Death of Osama Bin Laden]], not the killing of. [[User:Sherwilliam|Sherwilliam]] ([[User talk:Sherwilliam|talk]]) 20:52, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:Really? Please see [[Killing of Harambe]], [[Killing of Cecil the lion]], [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], and [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]]. All of those articles cover protests, lawsuits, and the overall impact. Some even devote a majority of the text to it. There is a precedent. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 23:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' - If we want to get technical / semantic, Floyd's death "ocurred" as a direct result of the actions of Officer Derek Chauvin. "Death" implies lack of a living agent whereas "killing" explicitly identifies one. The evidence as currently presented show no doubt as to the fact that Chauvin killed Floyd. [[User:TheGreatClockwyrm|TheGreatClockwyrm]] ([[User talk:TheGreatClockwyrm|talk]]) 21:57, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' - Video footage and multiple sources all corroborate that it was a killing. As mentioned above, leaving it as death likely violates [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Furthermore, kill is defined as to 'cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing)' - exactly what occurred here. Similar articles are also titled as 'Killing of' so it would be consistent. <span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#37364a">[[User:WBPchur|<span style="color:#FFF">'''WBPchur'''</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:WBPchur|💬]]●[[Special:Contributions/WBPchur|✒️]]●[[User:WBPchur/UB|💛]]</sup> 22:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC). +*'''Strong Support''' - Editors such as myself are not arguing on emotion, I am arguing on the merit of the sources that describe it as a killing, and as stated above [[WP:WEIGHT]] is in violation. [[User:VF01|VF01]] ([[User talk:VF01|talk]]) 22:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' for now. 'Death' seems to be used in similar articles earlier. Seems sufficient for encyclopedic purposes. --[[User:Thi|Thi]] ([[User talk:Thi|talk]]) 22:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' - Just to be clear, to those of you who are arguing we should contravene reliable sources and call this a "death" until the ME report: are you genuinely concerned about the possibility that Floyd may have died of natural causes while his neck was under an officer's knee for seven minutes, and while he stated that he couldn't breathe and that they were killing him? When someone dies in a shooting, do we usually wait for the ME report to describe the incident as a killing, just to rule out the possibility that the victim may have died of a naturally-occurring heart attack in the split seconds before the bullet impacted? We should follow the reliable sources. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 22:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*:Yes, we should follow the reliable sources. However, they overwhelmingly use the word "death" instead of "killing". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' per everyone voted "oppose". [[Special:Contributions/2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52|2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52]] ([[User talk:2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52|talk]]) 22:25, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' The [[death of Eric Garner]] and other extremely similar cases use "death of" due to the neutrality of the statement per [[WP:NPOV]]. [[User:Haydenaa|Haydenaa]] ([[User talk:Haydenaa|talk]]) 22:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' killing refers to the death of someone caused by someone else, not necessarily a murder. This is obviously the case here. [[User:Dark-World25|Dark-World25]] ([[User talk:Dark-World25|talk]]) 23:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong support''', changing to "Killing of" is not suggesting a murder, but a death caused by another person. This is both factually accurate and backed by sources which refer to this as a killing. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 23:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' per RealFakeKim. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 23:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support'''Occam's Razor means we must assume the strangulation was a reason for his death, not any other cause for which there is so far no evidence (or even indication). Also for what it's worth, 'Killing of' does not violate [[WP:NPOV]]. [[User:Devgirl|Devgirl]] ([[User talk:Devgirl|talk]]) 00:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''', as this was objectively a killing. The video evidence is right there. "Death" implies a random event without any causal relationship. 00:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nmurali02|Nmurali02]] ([[User talk:Nmurali02#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nmurali02|contribs]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> +*'''Oppose''' per {{u|haydenna}}. Conformity to [[Death of Eric Garner]] [[Death of JonBenét Ramsey]] [[Death of Breonna Taylor]] etc. Only exceptions are seemingly assassinations &/ animals. That and [[WP:NPOV]] due to it not being an inherent intentional killing. — <span style="text-shadow:red 0em 0em 0.8em">[[user:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:red">IVORK</b>]]</span> <sub>[[User talk:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:Green; font-size:x-small">Talk</b>]]</sub> 01:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*: I would like to point out that the latter article is currently in the process of undergoing a proposal for a page move to [[Shooting of Breonna Taylor]] instead, so it should probably not be cited as firm precedent pending the results of that move discussion. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::"Killing" does not imply intent. According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary|OED]]'', the modern definition is {{tq|extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an '''accident''', over-work, grief, drink, a disease, '''etc.'''}} -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:*'''Note''' Humans are animals too. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 02:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' Our quest for neutrality should not blind us; we can see, on video, an act that led to Floyd's death. Labeling it a killing is no less encyclopedic than labeling [[murder of Tupac Shakur|Tupac Shakur's death a murder]]. If anything, calling it simply a "death" is misleading - "killing" makes it clear that their was another human involved, which objectively, there was - no matter the "cause" of death, he would be alive if he had never interacted with the police officer. Furthermore I would assert that [[death of Eric Garner]] should also be moved to killing, for same reasons. [[User:Thornsie|Thornsie]] ([[User talk:Thornsie|talk]]) 01:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose'''. Would be a break from precedent, and implies a certain level of culpability (if not strictly semantically). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 02:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*''' Oppose ''' Death is the most neutral language.[[User:Pharaoh of the Wizards|Pharaoh of the Wizards]] ([[User talk:Pharaoh of the Wizards|talk]]) 02:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*''' Strong Support''' George Floyd was killed, which generated an abundance of reliable media coverage speaking to that fact. The publicity surrounding him is not merely about the fact that he 'died', it is specifically about the fact that he was killed, the manner he was killed, and whom he was killed by. It is the killing of George Floyd that infers notability, not the death of George Floyd. The article title should reflect that. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''', since the process by which Floyd died, not the death itself, is the main topic of the article, and it's pretty much crystal clear that Floyd was, in fact, murdered. --[[User:letcreate123|<b style= "color:black">letcreate123</b>]] <small>([[User talk:letcreate123|<i style= "color:green">talk</i>]])</small> 02:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +**My vote is only further enforced by the fact that it's been confirmed recently that Floyd's death was a homicide, thus, he was killed. Coverage on that matter is already available so it's very easy to verify. --[[User:letcreate123|<b style= "color:black">letcreate123</b>]] <small>([[User talk:letcreate123|<i style= "color:green">talk</i>]])</small> 00:38, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' - the way that George Floyd died, not just the fact that he died, is the subject of this article. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] ([[User talk:Guettarda|talk]]) 03:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now''' We should wait for autopsy or a judicial ruling before changing it, as *officially* there is no ruling yet and we really should wait for confirmation [[User:Jspace727|Jspace727]] ([[User talk:Jspace727|talk]]) 03:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''' As mentioned many times, "death" is the most neutral language right now. Articles will go through name changes down the line anyways, so we should definitely have this discussion again after an autopsy or pathology report. [[User:LittleWhole|LittleWhole]] ([[User talk:LittleWhole|talk]]) 03:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''': Whether or not you believe his death was fair or not, his life was taken by another human, therefore it was killing. There is no debate. He was killed, that's a fact, he's deceased because of another person. Accept it. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/32.213.160.30|32.213.160.30]] ([[User talk:32.213.160.30#top|talk]]) 03:55, 29 May 2020 (UTC)</small>‎ +* '''Support''' The main topic is that he was killed. There is strong support for this view. [[User:Wiki5537821|Wiki5537821]] ([[User talk:Wiki5537821|talk]]) 04:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' George Floyd's murder is on video and is even right there in the first picture in the article. Although I'd prefer calling it a Murder, calling it a Killing seems far more unambiguous than calling it a Death (which implies he died from natural causes). [[User:Westindiaman|Westindiaman]] ([[User talk:Westindiaman|talk]]) 04:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:I may personally agree that the officer kneeling on his neck appeared to kill him. However, neither you nor I are pathologists, medical examiners, or coroners and we have not examined the deceased to determine cause of death. To my knowledge this has not been done yet. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 04:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''' primarily on precedent for similar deaths. May need to be decided on a wider scope, but "Death of" is common to many similar deaths without compromising their accuracy or neutrality. [[User:StuartH|StuartH]] ([[User talk:StuartH|talk]]) 04:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' it doesn't seem disputed that his death was brought on by the police officer's actions, whether the officer intended to kill him or not. It is not likely he would have died otherwise. So "murder" would be too far, as it implies intent, but "killing" does seem appropriate and a neutral statement of fact. [[User:Paradoxsociety|<font face ="arial black" color="#001A99">Paradox</font>]][[User talk:Paradoxsociety|<font face="arial black" color="#006699">society</font>]] 04:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' breaks precedent and decreases article navigability [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 05:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Oppose''' As per above statements in that it would break precedent, be highly against NPOV, and would allow media sensationalism to dictate articles that are supposed to be objective. --[[User:Therexbanner|Therexbanner]] ([[User talk:Therexbanner|talk]]) 05:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' The fact that this man was killed by another person is supported by reliable primary and secondary sources. Either title is fine to me though as both are accurate. [[User:Gamebuster|Gamebuster]] [[User talk:Gamebuster|(Talk)]]║[[Special:Contributions/Gamebuster|Contributions)]] 05:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' Or even change to Murder of George Floyd. ——[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 05:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' Killing may not be as premeditaded as murder, but I wouldn't be surprised if the legal accusaion would be manslaughter. [[User:Alandeus|Alandeus]] ([[User talk:Alandeus|talk]]) 07:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Oppose''' There is no reason to change the title of the article when it is serving its intended purpose. [[User:CatcherStorm|<b><i><span style="text-shadow:3px 3px 4px darkgray;"><span style="color:#0000A0">CatcherStorm</span></span></i></b>]] [[User talk:CatcherStorm|<sup><i><span style="color:#2C3539">talk</span></i></sup>]] 06:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' An extremely similar article is titled [[Death of Eric Garner]], therefore precedent has already been set.--[[User:Chimino|Chimino]] ([[User talk:Chimino|talk]]) 07:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' need to wait for a conviction [[User:Yodabyte|Yodabyte]] ([[User talk:Yodabyte|talk]]) 07:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''SNOW Close and Oppose'''. Wikipedia is a [[WP:NPOV|neutral encyclopedia]]. Wikipedia is [[WP:CRYSTAL|not a crystal ball]], and cannot make decisions on a fact of a matter that has clearly not been determined yet. The word "killing" denotes intent. That has not yet been proven in a court of law, and therefore must not be concluded as such in the article title currently. While I sympathize with the plight of those championing a cause for justice for the article subject and working against police violence, per [[WP:NPOV]], Wikipedia is also [[WP:ADVOCACY|not a platform for advocacy]], [[WP:ACTIVIST|activist movements]] or [[WP:NOBLE|personal struggles]]. "Death" is a more neutral while factual term to describe the event for the time being. [[User:Optakeover|<span style="color:#ffffff; background:#3e007e">Optakeover</span>]]<sup>[[User:Optakeover|(U)]][[User talk:Optakeover|(T)]][[Special:contributions/Optakeover|(C)]]</sup> 07:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*: {{re|Optakeover}} my understanding of SNOW is that it's for when something definitely won't pass. By my count the votes are currently tied on oppose/support, so I don't see how SNOW can possibly apply. There's a good chance it will pass, or that it will be tied, there is no reason I can think of to say this will definitely end on oppose. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 11:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*::{{ping|JustLucas}} Who are you to say? What if consensus is for SNOW close? Think about the hypothetical situation. In any case, my reason is based on policy. And that is my point. [[User:Optakeover|<span style="color:#ffffff; background:#3e007e">Optakeover</span>]]<sup>[[User:Optakeover|(U)]][[User talk:Optakeover|(T)]][[Special:contributions/Optakeover|(C)]]</sup> 11:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::{{u|Optakeover}}, this isn't a [[WP:SNOW]] situation imo [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 12:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*::::We rely upon dictionaries to agree upon the meaning of words. According to the OED, the modern definition of killing does not imply intent, and can include "any means" of causing someone to die, including accident. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*::::If you don't know what [[WP:SNOW]] means, please don't call for a snow close. Clearly not a snowball's chance in hell of this being a snow close. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:10, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' As per GorillaWarfare. The officer caused George's death, which is killing. [[User:Cthulhu Inc|Cthulhu Inc]] ([[User talk:Cthulhu Inc|talk]]) 08:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now''' There is simply no need at this moment to draw an inference as to his cause of death when it will likely be conclusive and readily sourced. Without question, he died and that is a completely accurate title. However, that he was killed creates an impression that an intentional act is what killed him. It looks like the kneeling on the neck is related to the cause of death but that can't be known until there is an autopsy and report issued.[[User:Tridacninae|Tridacninae]] ([[User talk:Tridacninae|talk]]) 08:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now''' per [[WP:CRYSTAL]]. We have yet to get a coroner's ruling. We all saw something horrible and while it's extremely likely it will be ruled a homicide, there's always the possiblity of ''something'' else we cannot see. I'll be very suprised if that's the case but there is [[WP:NORUSH]]. The title is descriptive of the event. That something looks "obviously" like X still isn't X until it's official. Thinking about it that may be why the four ex-officers haven't been arrested yet. They don't know what the charge will be yet. Bad idea given the last couple of days in the city. They could have always upgraded the charges.[[User:ZarhanFastfire|ZarhanFastfire]] ([[User talk:ZarhanFastfire|talk]]) 08:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' based on sources, for instance Reuters titles "[https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-usa-congress/house-democrats-demand-probes-of-police-killings-of-black-americans-idUKKBN2343LR?il=0 police killings of black Americans]". Inventing our own standards for the usage of the word "killing", such as the presence or lack of a "coroner's ruling" as requested by the comment above, is forbidden by the policy [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. Every !vote above which doesn't rely on sources should be discounted. [[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' given that Wikipedia is a [[WP:NPOV|neutral encyclopedia]]. Multiple tertiary sources use "killing", including the Guardian's artcle "[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/george-floyd-killing-officers-derek-chauvin-tou-thao-investigated George Floyd Killing]" and the German DW article "[https://www.dw.com/en/un-condemns-us-police-killing-of-george-floyd/a-53608812 UN condemns US police killing of George Floyd]". Sources that do not use this terminology tend to be closer to the event and more likely not to be trustworthy. [[User:Althunyon|Althunyon]] ([[User talk:Althunyon|talk]]) 09:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' Wide variety of RS indicate that it was a killing, because the video indicates that it was a killing, because it was a killing. I'm not sure what more else one needs. We must follow the sources. [[User:Symphony Regalia|Symphony Regalia]] ([[User talk:Symphony Regalia|talk]]) 09:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' It is already the general understanding that this was a killing, there is not reason not to reflect that in the name of the article. --[[User:Ratherous|Ratherous]] ([[User talk:Ratherous|talk]]) 09:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' Plenty of sources talk about killing, and it's pretty clear from all available evidence that the officer caused Floyd's death. [[User:BeŻet|BeŻet]] ([[User talk:BeŻet|talk]]) 10:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' Per the name of the article of [[Death of Eric Garner]] a similar case <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:1.Ayana|1.Ayana]] ([[User talk:1.Ayana#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/1.Ayana|contribs]]) 11:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)</small> +*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:NPOV]] and convention ([[Death of Eric Garner]]) [[Special:Contributions/39.57.145.208|39.57.145.208]] ([[User talk:39.57.145.208|talk]]) 11:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' – "Killing" is a more adequate term since someone caused the death, "Death" could also mean an accident. [[User:Ca1ek|Ca1ek]] ([[User talk:Ca1ek|talk]]) 12:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''': This is not a death, it is a clear murder, according to maximum news sources. So It should be moved to [[Killing of George Floyd]] [[User:TheChunky|<font color="orange">The Chunky</font>]] ([[User talk:TheChunky|<font color="green">speak</font>]])12:57, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' Killing is what happened he did not die of natural causes (well without help), and as for other stuff, A: that is not valid and B: That is just an argument to rename any other pages, not to not rename this one.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' "Killing" is accurate and how it is described in reliable sources, it's not for us to decide. As for the BLP issues, nobody's saying to call it "Murder of George Floyd" which would be (for now anyway) a BLP issue. Even if the use of lethal force were found to be justified, it would still be an accurate statement to say he was killed. [[User:Smartyllama|Smartyllama]] ([[User talk:Smartyllama|talk]]) 13:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' It's not newsworthy that a man died in Minneapolis. It's newsworthy that a man was killed. For comparison with a case where the victim survived, we refer to the Rodney King ''[[Rodney_King#Beating|Beating]]'' not to "the wounds of Rodney King". [[User:Arided|Arided]] ([[User talk:Arided|talk]]) 14:18, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' as RSs continue to use "death" over "killing" including: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52845796], [https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-thursday/index.html], [https://news.sky.com/story/george-floyd-death-minneapolis-police-station-set-on-fire-during-protests-as-trump-attacks-thugs-11996574], [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/us/knee-neck-george-floyd-death.html], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/concern-anger-george-floyds-death-spread-around-country/], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/29/george-floyd-minneapolis-protests-live-updates//], [https://www.foxnews.com/media/laura-ingraham-minneapolis-riots-george-floyd-death], [https://www.foxnews.com/media/trey-gowdy-george-floyd-death-national-conversation], [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/05/28/george-floyd-foxs-sean-hannity-criticizes-minneapolis-police/5281078002/], [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499923-george-floyd-showed-no-signs-of-life-by-the-time-first-responders] so it is the [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. There are also other reasons stated above including adhering to the BLP and Neutrality policy as well as waiting for more infomation like an autopsy or conviction. Regards [[User:Spy-cicle|<span style='color: #ceff00;background-color: #1e1e1e;'><b>&nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&nbsp;</b></span>]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|<sup><span style='color: #ceff00;background-color: #1e1e1e;'><b>''Talk''?</b></span></sup>]] 14:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' to align with similar articles (such as [[Death of Eric Garner]]) per [[WP:CONSISTENT]]. Moreover, until there is an autopsy or formal charges, it would violate neutrality to presume this was a murder by using "killing", even if that ends up being the case. [[User:RunningTiger123|RunningTiger123]] ([[User talk:RunningTiger123|talk]]) 15:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' – The death of George Floyd was caused by another man. That makes it a killing, and we should not deny that. [[User:Sembeljaars|Sembeljaars]] ([[User talk:Sembeljaars|talk]]) 16:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' Patience will out. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 16:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' per {{u|Gorilla Warfare}}, whose arguments are wholly convincing. Oppose unhelpful [[WP:BADGER|badgering]] by both sides. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 17:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC) + +*'''Support''' - and the facts at hand include an attempted coverup, which I take as cause to believe that Chauvin also considered it a killing. However, I like the suggestion from [[User:Levivich]] to call it ''State v. Derek Chauvin'', with a few redirects. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 23:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC) + +*'''Support''' – While I understand that staying neutral is important but neutrality in this case would be a reflection of supporting something that needs condemning at all levels. What needs not be forgotten is underlying connotations of words. Given the involved officer has been charged with third-degree murder according to this source<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.vox.com/2020/5/31/21276049/derek-chauvin-tou-thao-kueng-lane-officers-george-floyd-what-we-know}}</ref> I firmly believe that the page should be renamed to killing rather than "death"[[User:NotJuggerNot|NotJuggerNot]] ([[User talk:NotJuggerNot|talk]]) 23:23, 31 May 2020 (UTC) + +* '''Support''': Floyd was killed. We should reflect in the title more specifically what happened to him. We know he was killed. [[User:WhoAteMyButter|<span style="color:#ffb300;text-shadow:1px 1px 6px rgba(255,153,0,0.6)">WhoAteMyButter</span>]] ([[User talk:WhoAteMyButter|<span title="Talk Page">📬</span>]]│[[Special:Contributions/WhoAteMyButter|<span title="Contribs">✏️</span>]]) 03:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +* '''Strong Support''': The killer was charged with murder, the most recent autopsy agrees with the criminal justice system. There is no reason to deny reality. It's only a matter of time before the DOJ agrees this is murder. What more is needed? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.197.117.9|68.197.117.9]] ([[User talk:68.197.117.9#top|talk]]) 05:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> +*'''Strong Support''' per the autopsy report. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 07:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +====Second convenience section==== +*'''Very strong support''' The videos have made it clear that George Floyd was killed by another person. It is not sensationalist to use "Killing" because this change would not be at the expense of accuracy, while sensationalism does come at the expense of accuracy. This article is about more than just George Floyd's death, the article also talks about the result of the fact that he was killed. Floyd simply dying is not the reason riots are happening right now, it is the fact that he was killed by another person and the title should reflect this fact. [[User:MeumInfernum|MeumInfernum]] ([[User talk:MeumInfernum|talk]]) 13:26, May 29, 2020 (EST) +*'''Strong Oppose''' Until there is an autopsy and/or charges are laid the article's name should remain the same. --[[User:Partridgepentathalon|Partridgepentathalon]] ([[User talk:Partridgepentathalon|talk]]) 17:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +::{{u|Partridgepentathalon}}, charges have been filed in case you would like to update your !vote. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' per {{u|Gorilla Warfare}} and {{u|MeumInfernum}}. [[User:ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester|ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester]] ([[User talk:ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester|talk]]) 18:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now''' until somebody gets a verdict. But considering that technically nobody is even charged yet, it would be an unnecessary breaking of [[wp:NPOV]] which plenty of activists on this site now seem to be all to happy to ignore. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5|2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5|talk]]) 18:19, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' - The general consensus right now is that it is a murder. Unless a source comes out and proves the contrary, it should be labeled as such and only changed if the autopsy proves otherwise. [[User:Lbparker40|Lbparker40]] ([[User talk:Lbparker40|talk]]) 18:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' now that the perpetrator has been charged with murder. Plenty of reliable sources describe Floyd's death as "killing".[https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-28/george-floyd-police-chiefs-criminal-justice-reform][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames][https://www.cbsnews.com/live/video/20200529180421-more-on-the-fallout-from-the-killing-of-george-floyd/]. It doesn't matter if other sources, or even more sources, have characterized the killing as "death". Those are not indicative of disparate points of view. As it turns out, death is the direct result of being killed. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' per the precedent of other articles like [[Shooting of Michael Brown]], [[Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko]], etc. The word "killing" does not imply murder. "Kill" only implies that Floyd did not die from some cause like disease or suicide; it implies that his life ended upon action by another human being. That Floyd died upon action by another person is irrefutable. [[User:BirdValiant|BirdValiant]] ([[User talk:BirdValiant|talk]]) 18:33, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' His death was caused by another individual harming him. Death makes it sound like he died of disease or natural causes. [[User:CodingCyclone|CodingCyclone]] ([[User talk:CodingCyclone|talk]]) 18:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now''', Wikipedia is not judge and jury and should remain a neutral arbiter of facts as they stand, precedence in other articles is that we use "Death" (eg [[Death of Eric Garner]]). If the officers involved are indicted and convicted at trial then will be the appropriate time to discuss renaming the article. [[User:Zerbey|Zerbey]] ([[User talk:Zerbey|talk]]) 18:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' He wouldn't be dead if it weren't for the knee on his neck. He was murdered. To say otherwise is disrespecting Mr Floyd and dissing the truth. [[User:Oxyaena|Ms.23]] ([[User talk:Oxyaena|talk]]) 18:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' - The Wikipedia article on manslaughter states, "Involuntary manslaughter is the killing of a human being without intent of doing so, either expressed or implied." It is obvious from the video that the Derek Chauvin's actions directly lead to the death of George Floyd which is (at least) manslaughter and therefore "killing" is the correct designation. [[User:Kmorris1077|Kmorris1077]] ([[User talk:Kmorris1077|talk]]) 18:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now''' until somebody gets a verdict. And then it should probably be "Murder" like at [[Murder of Jordan Edwards]].[[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] ([[User talk:Oneiros|talk]]) 18:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' – It's obvious to anybody with eyes that this was a murder, and now that there's a formal charge put forward, there's no excuse left. [[User:Cat&#39;s Tuxedo|Cat&#39;s Tuxedo]] ([[User talk:Cat&#39;s Tuxedo|talk]]) 18:53, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' - The manner in which he died has ample evidence. It was at the hands of another person and it's not a coincidence. I understand the need to have a cited source, but when it's plainly obvious a man had his knee on his neck, what more do you need? There's no ambiguity here. [[User:Leitmotiv|Leitmotiv]] ([[User talk:Leitmotiv|talk]]) 19:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' A killing is "an act of causing death." His death was caused. Passive voice in describing the events is not neutral but a deliberate stance. [[User:Liberte et paix|Liberte et paix]] ([[User talk:Liberte et paix|talk]]) 19:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong support''': The page should be moved to Killing of George Floyd as the Cop was charged with third degree murder. <ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/george-floyd-death-live-updates-protests-erupt-200529124843031.html}}</ref> --[[User:Vegitaboss|Vegitaboss]] ([[User talk:Vegitaboss|talk]]) 19:18, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +{{Reflist talk}} +* '''Strong Support''' Derek has now been charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter, making this officially a killing by the courts standards of an arrest warrant. I also think that most 'oppose for now' votes prior to the official charges no longer apply because of the official arrest charges, putting the consesnus largely in favor of a name change to "killing". Would like to hear from any past 'oppose for now' voters to see if they agree.[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 19:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong support''' It should be immediately moved to Killing or Murder of George Floyd as the cop who kneeled on this man's neck is charged with third-degree murder <ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/us-cop-taken-into-custody-over-death-of-black-man-that-caused-widespread-anger-2237530?pfrom=home-bigstory}}</ref> [[User:Neurofreak|Neurofreak]] ([[User talk:Neurofreak|talk]]) 19:49, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Weak Oppose''' – “Killing” feels like it’s getting into POV territory considering the controversy surrounding what happened. Also feels like an unnecessary deviation from similar incidents like the [[Death of Eric Garner]], which also uses “Death of” despite being declared a homicide. - [[User:Koldcuts|Koldcuts]] ([[User talk:Koldcuts|talk]]) 20:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:: Just saw he’s been charged with murder. Oppose is now a weak oppose. - [[User:Koldcuts|Koldcuts]] ([[User talk:Koldcuts|talk]]) 20:15, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' per RealFakeKim. [[User:AugusteBlanqui|AugusteBlanqui]] ([[User talk:AugusteBlanqui|talk]]) 20:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' as per semantic arguments given in the discussion section below by {{user|Darouet}}. -- ''[[User:Pingumeister|Pingumeister]]''<sup>([[User talk:Pingumeister|talk]])</sup> 20:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' per RealFakeKim's arguments. [[User:Demoxica|Demoxica]] ([[User talk:Demoxica|talk]]) 20:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' as per all the arguments above. Since the officer involved (Derek Chauvin) has been charged with murder, the title should probably be changed to "Murder of George Floyd". [[User:Octoberwoodland|Octoberwoodland]] ([[User talk:Octoberwoodland|talk]]) 20:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now''' The details of the death are unclear. Killing suggests a motive beyond just wanting to detain someone (regardless of the validity of the reason to want to detain). "Death of" is more neutral. Depending on the final legal outcome a change may be appropriate in the future. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 20:53, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' per BirdValiant. "Death" is not more neutral than "Killing", particularly in light of the charge with third-degree murder. ''Freeman emphasized he and his team would not have moved ahead with the case if they were not confident they had evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the officer was guilty. “As of right now, we have that,” Freeman said.''[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2020/may/29/george-floyd-killing-protests-minneapolis-minnesota-us-twitter-donald-trump-latest-news-live?page=with:block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0#block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0] --[[User:DarTar|DarTar]] ([[User talk:DarTar|talk]]) 20:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' for "Killing", and after the trial another move should be considered WRT "Murder". It is clear that a man's actions resulted in another man's death with just the video alone. The court of public opinion has no place on Wikipedia but this isn't a matter of opinion. "Murder" would be, but "Killing" does not as "Killing" can be state-sanctioned. -- [[User:Sarysa|sarysa]] ([[User talk:Sarysa|talk]]) 21:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' for "Killing" with "Murder" considered in the future, per reasons expressed above by {{user|Sarysa}}. [[User:Calcastor|Calcastor]] ([[User talk:Calcastor|talk]]) 21:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' This is indeed a killing. Derek Chauvin was charged with "Third-Degree Murder" and "manslaughter". If Chauvin had not knelt on Floyd's neck for that long, Floyd might have survived. I would also like to say that, *I feel like "Killing" is more appropriate than "Murder". [[User:Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)|Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)]] ([[User talk:Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)|talk]]) 21:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +::Charging means that investigators think a particular thing. It does not prove that their thinking is accurate. Else, charging would be the end of the matter and we'd have no need to consult those pesky courts. We should wait for the autopsy to determine whether an individual was responsible for the death. It shouldn't take so long; there is no need to rush it. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 21:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''' Death is a neutral term and does not imply that it was not caused by another person. Although the police officer has been charged with murder, we should wait till the conviction. [[User:SignificantPBD|SignificantPBD]] ([[User talk:SignificantPBD|talk]]) 22:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' for "Killing" with "Murder" considered in the future. Here's a link to a page that contains the full complaint against Chauvin: https://www.axios.com/george-floyd-police-officer-in-custody-080da82e-9262-47fd-a52c-3ef7421adb10.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3IHDzPMJwi5Oobg6p4z_DkbYnoujgV5UteWUafnkdNWdxGDK4fzf-9U2E [[User:John Link|John Link]] ([[User talk:John Link|talk]]) 22:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +::Based on the consistency argument by {{user| Awilley}} I've changed my opinion to '''Oppose'''. [[User:John Link|John Link]] ([[User talk:John Link|talk]]) 15:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' Mr Floyd was obviously killed by that bitch cop, so "Killing of George Floyd" should be the correct title of this article.[[User:Sadsadas|Sadsadas]] ([[User talk:Sadsadas|talk]]) 22:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Oppose''' I agree that Floyd's death was no question a killing, and I hope the cop rots, but like previous people have mentioned, the Eric Garner page is still titled "Death of". Wikipedia must be free of ANY bias, even if we as social beings all agree that this was a killing [[User:Thurgoodmarshallisbae|Thurgoodmarshallisbae]] ([[User talk:Thurgoodmarshallisbae|talk]]) 23:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' If 4 different video angles (possibly more) doesn’t justify this was in fact a killing of an unarmed black man, I don’t know what ever will. [[User:TruthGuardians|TruthGuardians]] ([[User talk:TruthGuardians|talk]]) 23:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' The officer was directly responsible for Floyd's death and has been charged with murder, therefore he killed him. [[User:GarethPW|GarethPW]] ([[User talk:GarethPW|talk]]) 00:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong support''' The video speaks for itself. And I actually want to add that we have this redirect [[Mohamed Noor (murderer)]], a black Minneapolis Police officer who accidentally killed a white lady. When the cop is black, we have no problem calling it a murder. --[[User:Deansfa|Deansfa]] ([[User talk:Deansfa|talk]]) 00:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +:::That redirect was created ''after'' Noor was actually convicted of murder. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 16:33, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose'''. Until the cause of death is officially established, we should not characterize it. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 00:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong support''' "Death" sounds like a natural one. This is the murder we are talking about. Suitable title would be '''Murder of George Floyd'''. Mark my words, even if you wont change the name now, eventually it will end up with "Murder" word only. --[[User:NaveenNkadalaveni|Naveen N Kadalaveni]] ([[User talk:NaveenNkadalaveni|talk]]) 00:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' for all the reasons above. It may not have been a murder but it was unquestionably a killing by any useful definition of the term "kill". [[User:Lexicon|Lexicon]] <small>[[User talk:Lexicon|(talk)]]</small> 01:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''', if reliable sources are using "killed", so should we. "Killing" doesn't require that a crime has been committed, it simply means that a person's death was caused by another person, which is clearly the case here. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 02:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose for now''': Unclear verdict per other oppose reasons. Until a clear verdict on Floyd's death is reached, we should not risk changing the title into something else which throws off other readers. If the title does change, a suitable article name would probably be "Murder of George Floyd," but since a verdict for Floyd is not reached yet we shouldn't tamper with the title yet. [[User:Thissecretperson|Thissecretperson]] ([[User talk:Thissecretperson|talk]]) 02:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' He was killed, no source denies that, so let's call it a killing. --[[User:Denny|denny vrandečić]] ([[User talk:Denny|talk]]) 02:53, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support'''. The police didn't need to knee on his neck for so long if he didn't want to kill him. Humans need to breathe, if you don't let someone do that, then you are killing him.--[[User:Andres arg|Andres arg]] ([[User talk:Andres arg|talk]]) 02:55, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet. <span style="color:#666">&ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|<span style="color:#f90;">&nbsp;+</span>]]</span> 02:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' It’s a killing. Death implies ambiguity about how he died. It hasn’t been adjudicated whether it’s a murder but it’s clearly both true and easily verifiable that it was a killing. [[User:MarylandGeoffrey|MarylandGeoffrey]] ([[User talk:MarylandGeoffrey|talk]]) 03:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet + MarylandGeoffrey. = [[User:Paul2520|paul2520]] ([[User talk:Paul2520|talk]]) 03:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' because of the overwhelming evidence that was filmed and widely published by independent and mainstream media. That officer knelt of the victim's neck for nearly 9 minutes, even after the latter had repeatedly told him he could not breathe, even after passersby pleaded with him to let go of him or he'd kill him. [[User:Israell|Israell]] ([[User talk:Israell|talk]]) 05:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support killing''' as that is what happened. It is not like they died spontaneously and 4 police officers just happened to be holding him in their arms. The problem with such politically charged cases, like trumps weight is one can find physicians to say anything. Wound not user murder. Killing is sort of a middle ground. Death appear to be trying to obfuscate and sanitize what occurred. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 06:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''': It is absolutely true that Floyd died, and calling it a death in no way absolves the officer whose actions caused that death. "Killing" seems accurate but unnecessarily sensationalistic. [[User:Peter Chastain|<font face="Palatino Linotype">Peter Chastain</font>]] [[User talk:Peter Chastain|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[¡hablá!]</sup></font>]] 06:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +** I have a question. Killing doesn't have to be intentional. But what definition of killing do you intend to use. Per one definition it is equivalent to murder, per another it's simply to make something die. It can be used in different situations. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 03:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''': It isn't sensationalist—it's just accurate. [[User:Karmos|Karmos]] ([[User talk:Karmos|talk]]) 06:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' - after watching the video, yeah he definitely killed him [[User:Urgal|Urgal]] ([[User talk:Urgal|talk]]) 07:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''', since there are reliable sources available for "killing" (some mentioned above; e.g. see Nemo's comment). [[User:Ahmad252|Ahmad]]<sup>[[User Talk:Ahmad252|talk]]</sup> 07:40, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''', but only on a technical level, and somewhat weakly at that. [[User:Tentonne|Tentonne]] ([[User talk:Tentonne|talk]]) 08:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''', given that third degree murder charges have been levied, and to accurately assess the situation. [[User:Teddybearearth|Teddybearearth]] ([[User talk:Teddybearearth|talk]]) 08:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''' The preliminary autopsy finding leaves open the possibility of accidental death ("''The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death''"). I think we need to wait for such a change until either a conviction, or a more detailed autopsy report. -- [[User:Netwalker3|Netwalker3]] ([[User talk:Netwalker3|talk]]) 08:28, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' If 4 different video angles (possibly more to come) doesn’t justify that this was, in fact, a killing of an unarmed black man, I don’t know what ever will.[[User:TruthGuardians|TruthGuardians]] ([[User talk:TruthGuardians|talk]]) 08:48, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' per TruthGuardians. Simply watching the video settles this discussion. [[User:CrispyCream27|<span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #f4802b; color: #ffffff;">CrispyCream27</span>]] [[User Talk:CrispyCream27|<sup><span style='color: #f4802b;background-color: '><b>''(Talk)''</b></span></sup>]] 09:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''' Going to oppose this one. I understand that it certaintly seems like an unlawful killing of a civilian, and I do agree that it was unfair, unjust, and a blatant abuse of power, however Wikipedia is not the place to be using loaded langauge like that, especially considering the very current state of this news. [[User:Maxmmyron|Maxmmyron]] ([[User talk:Maxmmyron|talk]]) 10:10, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong support''' per {{u|RealFakeKim}}, {{u|TruthGuardians}} and {{u|GarethPW}}. Choosing the passive "death" is PoV; it is also loaded language. Floyd didn't just "die", he was killed. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; please &#123;&#123;[[Template:ping|ping]]&#125;&#125; me in replies)</small></span> 10:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' - especially for now, but even when the autopsy comes out I'm not sure if we should change it. "Killing" is usually defined as intentionally or deliberately taking someones life, unless that police officer says he intentionally took Floyd's life, I think it would be a NPOV issue to say killing. Death will always be a neutral term, in my opinion. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 10:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose for now''' - as per naming conventions. As more information becomes available, the title of the article may need to be changed to reflect this new information. [[User:CremationLily|CremationLily]] ([[User talk:CremationLily|talk]]) 10:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' It is backed up by multiple sources and the video itself. In the current landscape I do not think Death would be considered a neutral term at all, killing more accurately reflects the general opinion from what I have seen. The police officers intentions also should not effect the terminology, killing does not need to be intentional to still be classified as killing. His arrest has also shown that he is considered to have killed someone by the state. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dubarr18|Dubarr18]] ([[User talk:Dubarr18#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dubarr18|contribs]]) 11:05, 30 May 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> +*'''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet + MarylandGeoffrey. [[User:MacDoesWiki|MacDoesWiki]] ([[User talk:MacDoesWiki|talk]]) 04:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' Since the officer has been charged, there is now more than enough justification to change the title. [[User:Kevin n97|Kevin n97]] ([[User talk:Kevin n97|talk]]) 11:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' It would be the Death of George Floyd if he was not murdered, since the current consensus is that he was murdered, it should be the killing. But I do agree that it should wait until the autopsy is complete, but once that occurs I strongly support. [[User:JazzClam|JazzClam]] ([[User talk:JazzClam|talk]]) 13:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' (no longer neutral) per GorillaWarfare and Doc James, but also in light of the (questionably independent) autopsy, which nevertheless suggests that the actions of the police officers were partially responsible for the death. i expound on this a bit in the commentary, but it's clear to me that this is a death as a result of the actions of other people, which is a killing (not necessarily a murder, that's a debate for after the trial). Furthermore, more RSes are referring to it as a killing. Some do still refer to it as a death - it isn't ''not'' a death. But [[WP:COMMONNAME]] applies. In relation to "sensationalism", keeping it as "death" can have an inference of the ''lack'' of an external agency, so it's not an [[WP:NPOV]]-safe approach. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 13:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Oppose''' Since Wikipedia for the most part functions as an encyclopedia and therefore by default must describe any subject as objective, neutral and truthful as possible, Mr. Floyds' death must remain the title of the article until a trial and final investigation of cause of death have been concluded. Any other title is biased and nothing more than a judgmental people's court. We are not medical professionals or judges examining and convicting in this case. If Wikipedia does not entail neutral information, its purpose becomes irrelevant and invalid.--[[User:Lechatmarbre|Lechatmarbre]] ([[User talk:Lechatmarbre|talk]]) 13:58, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support'''. I further suggest we change the article title to "Murder of George Floyd" since the police officer that committed the murder has been charged with the same. [[Special:Contributions/74.76.172.231|74.76.172.231]] ([[User talk:74.76.172.231|talk]]) 14:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' unless one can prove that the video was doctored or that Mr Floyd spontaneously got tired of breathing of his own volition. In fact "Murder of George Floyd" should be the name of this article by the time this debate is over. [[User:AnyDosMilVint|AnyDosMilVint]] ([[User talk:AnyDosMilVint|talk]]) 15:14, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Long Oppose''' In tragic situations like this when people are filled with anger and despair it is important that we let policy guide us. In this case the relevant policy is [[WP:Article titles]]. That policy lists 5 criteria up front: '''Recognizability''', '''Naturalness''', '''Precision''', '''Conciseness''', and '''Consistency'''. Other criteria are discussed later: [[WP:Commonname]] and [[WP:NPOVTITLE|Neutrality]]. I will try to evaluate the two titles based on these. +*:The two names are equally recognizable, natural, pricise, and concise. (Note that "precision" is talking about unambiguously identifying the subject and distinguishing it from other subjects, not the preciseness of the words we use.) That leaves us with Consistency, Commonness, and Neutrality. +*:'''Consistency''': If we look at {{cl|Deaths_in_police_custody_in_the_United_States}} we have the following constructions: +*::"Death of [Name]" +*::"Murder of [Name]" +*::"[Name]" +*:There are no instances of "Killing of [Name]" +*:A larger sample of articles is at {{cl|Filmed killings by law enforcement}}. That has similar examples of the above 3 constructions plus a lot of "Shooting of [Name]". But again zero examples of "Killing..." So Consistency favors "Death". +*:'''Commonname''': There's not a great way of measuring this, but Google Search counts (with and without quotes) both favor "Death". (With quotes the ratio was about 4:3) +*:'''Neutrality''': This is largely an issue of [[WP:WORDS]]. On Wikipedia we avoid judgemental and non-neutral words that may introduce bias. In [[WP:SAID]], "Synnonyms for said" could be compared with "Synnonyms for death". "Murdered", "lynched", "martyred", "massacred", "slaughtered", "exterminated", "executed", "passed away" all imply different things and evoke different emotions. But "death" is neutral. +*:'''BLP''' One more consideration is [[WP:BLP|our policy on living persons]]. It is against our rules to conclude that a living person has committed a crime until that person has been convicted in court. "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction." So it would be problmatic to state in Wikipedia's voice that it was a killing. (Obviously if the officer is convicted the article can be moved at that point, probably to "Murder of..." or "Strangulation of..." +:I would also like to respond briefly to some common arguments here that are not based in policy. +::"It is obviously a killing. Anybody can see that in the video. We should call it what it is." [[WP:Original research|It is not our job to make that judgement]]. Our job is to follow the best reliable sources and, in this case, the verdict of a jury. +::"We should wait and see what the autopsy report says." This is good thinking, and the result of the autopsy report should be in the article, but [[WP:BLPCRIME]] is clear that it is the conviction in a court of law in that matters. +::"The officer has now been charged, so we can call it a killing." Again, it's the conviction, not the charge, that matters. +:Final note: As this is a highly emotional topic that is drawing many new editors, the eventual close of this request should include a detailed analysis addressing the arguments and policy basis of the result. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 14:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +::{{u|Awilley}}, your claim "There are no instances of 'Killing of [Name]' " is false. '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Killing+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1 There are more than 30 articles with "Killing of (Name)"]'''.---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 16:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +:::C&C, I didn't claim that there were no articles with "Killing of..." I simply confined my search to categories containing articles similar to this. If you want to do a raw count of all articles everywhere then you should be comparing it to this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Death+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1] <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 18:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +::::I think C&C's list is the relevant compmarison. The "Death of ..." articles includes the much larger category of people who were not killed, for example the deaths of famous people by disease, accident, or other noteorhty circumstances. [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 16:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +:::::SPECIFICO, that's correct. In order to do a meaningful comparison between C&C's list of '''52''' "Killing of..." articles and the list of '''507''' "Death of..." articles you would need to comb through and subtract all the irrelevant articles like [[Killing of animals]] and [[Death of Samantha (song)]] and the articles about people who died of natural causes. This is why it makes sense to use categories to look at a limited samples of people killed by police as I did above. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 14:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +::{{u|Awilley}}, I agree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Filmed_killings_by_law_enforcement is the most relevant precedent, but of the "[noun] of [name]"s there, the vast majority are "shooting". There is no good analog of "shooting" for Floyd, because there's not really any appropriate single word that describes the manner in which he was killed. "Killing" is the next closest thing: less specific as to the method, but still clear that Floyd's death was caused by the police action. No blame or crime is implied. [[User:Danstronger|Danstronger]] ([[User talk:Danstronger|talk]]) 00:53, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''': As long as the article doesn't imply a deliberate killing. Killing can also refer to simply causing death even if you don't mean it. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 17:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' Death is not a neutral term in that situation. As per [[User:Devgirl|Devgirl]], Occam's razor and a ton of evidence point that it was a killing, and. Even though this is not standard practice on Wikipedia, this case is not standard. I feel that omission and labeling as "Death" instead of killing is deliberately choosing to be imprecise. And that implies that there is a reasonable chance that he was not killed. And as per the information available, that is not a reasonable assumption. So death is not "neutral", it is just broader. And casting this shadow of doubt on such an important event is not the goal of Wikipedia. [[User:TiagoLubiana|TiagoLubiana]] ([[User talk:TiagoLubiana|talk]]) 18:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose'''. The standard title format for this situation is '''Death of (person)'''. [[User:KyuuA4|KyuuA4]] ([[User_talk:KyuuA4|Talk:キュウ]]) 19:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong support'''. I 100% agree that the article should be moved to [[Killing of George Floyd]]. I’ve checked on Wikipedia, and from what I see, “Death of” is usually used people like [[Death of Osama Bin Laden]], [[Death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi]], [[Death of Benito Mussolini]], and it is also used for nonviolent deaths and some suicides while “killing of” is used for people like [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], [[Killing of Peter Fechter]], and surprisingly, lots of recent prominent animal deaths like [[Killing of Harambe]] or [[Killing of Cecil the Lion]]. [[Death of Freddie Gray]] is listed as “death of”, but I think I’ll try to change that. [[User:Yoleaux|Yoleaux]] ([[User talk:Yoleaux|talk]]) 20:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''SUPPORT''' They were clearly killed. You have video footage of what happened. There is no possible way he would've just died if he hadn't been in that situation. If the jury rules it was murder, this can be renamed against to Murder of George Floyd. It is not original research to look at a video and see what happened, its common sense. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 21:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*:{{u|Dream Focus}}, that's exactly what original research is. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 00:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support'''. The most reliable source is the video itself. The video clearly shows that Derek Chauvin was the primary factor in George Floyd's becoming unresponsive. I think this is common sense that the most neutral thing we can do is call it a killing. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 22:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support'''. Derek Chauvin was charged with third degree murder of George Floyd. At least from the state prosecution's side, killing or even murder is the correct word to describe what had happened. [[User:JesseC436|JesseC436]] ([[User talk:JesseC436|talk]]) 22:44, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''', per JesseC436. [[User:L ke|L ke]] ([[User talk:L ke|talk]]) 23:06, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Oppose''' results of the autopsy do not show that this was caused by strangulation. Regardless of how you feel about the video, it's best to remain neutral until a trial finds him guilty/innocent, at which point we can change the title if necessary. [[User:Anon0098|Anon0098]] ([[User talk:Anon0098|talk]]) 02:09, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Provisionally Oppose''' The results of the autopsy seems to be inconclusive. I'd wait a few days before moving this page if more reliable sources appear in the meantime. [[user:BrxBrx|BrxBrx]]([[user talk:BrxBrx|talk]])<sup>(please reply with <nowiki>{{SUBST:</nowiki>re|BrxBrx<nowiki>}}</nowiki>)</sup> 02:40, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' because it makes sense with other Wikipedia articles. --[[User:Xicanx|Xicanx]] ([[User talk:Xicanx|talk]]) 06:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''', I do agree that "Death of George Floyd" implies a death due to natural causes. I feel that killing more accurately reflects the situation, especially given the obvious and unjustified police brutality present. Killing does not imply a deliberate intent, "Murder of George Floyd" would be a title that implies that. [[User:Devonian Wombat|Devonian Wombat]] ([[User talk:Devonian Wombat|talk]]) 08:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' "Death" is a passive word, implying "the life just ended". "Killed" is an active word, implying "something happened to stop that life at that point". Except in the most philosophical sense, it is abundantly clear that Floyd would not have died at that time if not for the actions of Chauvin. +*:Even in the highly unlikely scenario that Derek's death happened to be due to some unlikely medical circumstance unrelated to the knee on his neck, it would still be the case that he was prevented from seeking aid by Chauvin, that others were preventing from providing aid by the officers on scene, and that none of the officers on scene took action to provide aid, or call for aid. As such, it is clear that, even if there needs to be some distinction that (from a legal standpoint) this may not yet be able to called a murder, it can definitely, and should definitely, be called a killing. +*:Even putting all that aside, and focusing on what's been published in the media, there is support for the use of the phrase. The Guardian has an article [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/30/george-floyd-protests-latest-at-a-glance-white-house George Floyd killing sparks protests across the US: at a glance guide]. Fox40 has [https://fox40.com/news/local-news/protests-of-solidarity-surround-state-capitol-in-wake-of-george-floyd-killing/ Protests of solidarity surround Stae Capitol in wake of Geoorge Floyd killing]. Politico has [https://www.politico.com/video/2020/05/30/nationwide-protest-erupt-over-the-killing-of-george-floyd-076463 Nationwide protests erupt over the killing of George Floyd]. MSNBC has [https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/george-floyd-killing-highlights-toxic-police-culture-84119621866 George Floyd killing highlights toxic police culture]. If we need more examples, they are plentiful and not difficult to find. [[User:Aawood|Aawood]] ([[User talk:Aawood|talk]]) 09:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' There are precedents for both ways of phrasing it and the passiveness of "Death of" doesn't convey the perspective that ignited the protests. Everything that's happening as a result of George Floyd's death wouldn't have happened if he simply died. His death was caused by another person. He was killed by a police officer. Whether the killing was intentional or not is irrelevant. Whether he had underlying health conditions or not is irrelevant. George Floyd would not be dead if the police officer didn't do what he did. [[User:TJScalzo|TJScalzo]] ([[User talk:TJScalzo|talk]]) 09:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*:With the [https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html independent autopsy] that has been made public, I reaffirm my support for this move. [[User:TJScalzo|TJScalzo]] ([[User talk:TJScalzo|talk]]) 09:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong support''', and per my comment at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Floyd]], I think ultimately this page should be at [[George Floyd]] and expanded to a biography on the subject. In the alternative, a shorter bio at [[George Floyd]] with this page as the main section about his <s>murder</s>killing. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 10:49, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' The whole event hinges on the fact that Gorge Floyd was killed due to use of excessive and unreasonable force by the police. 'Death' plays into the false narrative that he just happened to die while around police. 'Killing' clarifies that the death was caused by the police, which we know to be the case. [[User talk:Melmann|Melmann]] 11:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' for now. People do call it a killing so the redirect makes sense. However, because it is not confirmed yet he was killed, whether intentionally or unintentionally, so Wikipedia should keep the title as death to stay neutral. [[User:OcelotCreeper|<span style="color:#DAA520;">Ocelot</span><span style="color:green;">Creeper</span>]] ([[User talk:OcelotCreeper|<span style="color:#DAA520">ta</span><span style="color:green;">lk</span>]]) 15:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' I understand the neutral language policy etc. However, we cannot change the reality and nature of an event to support neutral language. This is not the matter here. Right now in this wikipedia if you search 'the killing of' you can see a lot of article titles come up with it. On the other hand, it is clear in the footage that the (former) officer knew what he was doing and he did it deliberately. Police education includes CPR and information about what can kill and what happens if you cut oxygen delivery to the brain for more than 5 minutes. Even if he released pressure on his neck before he died he would acquire significant brain injury. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 15:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support:''' It is safe enough to call the situation manslaughter, so killing would be a proper title. I may partly see why people may choose to leave it as "Death", I lean more towards "Killing", since there was police brutality and non-premeditated homicide in the situation. About full on murder, however, I'd rather not rename it like that. [[User:Maese Juan 25|Maese Juan 25]] ([[User talk:Maese Juan 25|talk]]) 17:08, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' per sourcing and the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'' of "kill" not not imply intent. I support later moving the page to "murder" if the cop(s) are found guilty. [[User:TJMSmith|TJMSmith]] ([[User talk:TJMSmith|talk]]) 17:48, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' – Media worldwide has already used the word 'kill' to describe the event. Chauvin has also been arrested for murder. [[User:Nahnah4|Nahnah4]] ([[User talk:Nahnah4|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Nahnah4|contribs]]) 18:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' per above, there's not much more to be argued [[User:Leotext|Leotext]] ([[User talk:Leotext|talk]]) 18:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support.''' Clearly and obviously a killing. "Death of" is less precise. [[User:Snooganssnoogans|Snooganssnoogans]] ([[User talk:Snooganssnoogans|talk]]) 19:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' Further investigation shows that he was indeed choked to death. No need to kneel on the neck of a handcuffed person.[[User:Tinyastro|Tinyastro]] ([[User talk:Tinyastro|talk]]) 19:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support:''' Chauvin is shown kneeling on Floyd's neck to the point of being unable to breath & has been charge with third-degree murder. This is not some random death, but a deliberate killing. [[User:WakandaForever188|WakandaForever188]] ([[User talk:WakandaForever188|talk]]) 19:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''' for now, maybe later after a cause of death is more clearly determined. Right now the preliminary autopsy report seems to say natural causes, but the officer has been charged with murder, so the official record is muddled. Many such articles are labeled "Shooting of" but in this case the cause of death has not been clearly established on the record. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 20:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*<s>Oppose</s> While it seems clear he died as a result of his treatment by police, there is no consistent use of "kill" among RS, and per Awiley, "death" is used more consistently in article titles. "Death" is even used as a header in BLPs of murder victims. <u>Also, we should consider the unlikely possibility that he coincidentally died from drugs he may have been on. This is why we should resist the temptation to use OR analysis of the event.</u> [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 21:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)<small>[[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 14:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)</small> +*:'''Strong support''' per autopsy reports. [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 01:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' - There's no shortage of sources describing the death of George Floyd as a killing. I understand that Wikipedia tends to prefer using as neutral-sounding of language as possible whenever possible, but calling it a killing is not ''not'' neutral. This is less about neutrality and more about semantics and sources. I can understand why some in this thread have said that Wikipedia should wait until a conviction to refer to the homicide as a murder in the title (as we can't know what charges the suspects will or will not be found guilty of), but it's just a well-documented fact that George Floyd was killed and avoiding describing his death a homicide is an erroneous thing to do. As others have pointed out, stating that he was killed doesn't even suggest that it was purposeful (e.g. accidental vehicular homicide is still killing), it simply provides more specific information. I can sympathize with the viewpoint that using the word "death" could make the article come off as having a more neutral tone, and I share the goal of making the article as neutral and accurate as possible, I simply hold the viewpoint that killing is a more accurate term and that using it does not compromise the neutrality of the article's title. Best wishes <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:Vanilla Wizard|<b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF">&nbsp;Vanilla </b>]][[User Talk:Vanilla Wizard|<b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF">&nbsp;Wizard </b>]]</b> [[Special:Contribs/Vanilla Wizard|💙]] 22:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' Video evidence unambiguously shows that the death of George Floyd was indeed a killing in that the police officer directly caused his death. According to the definition of the word, even an accidental killing could accurately be described as a killing (though this was certainly not accidental). Apparently more credible sources use the word "death" rather than "killing," but I wonder how many use words that are closer in tone to "killing," such as "murder." Moreover, virtually all credible sources, including those that use "death," clearly state that the police officer caused Mr. Floyd's death, which is the definition of the word "kill." Even if autopsy results show that asphyxiation was not the cause of death, there are other ways one could die from having someone kneel on one's neck for over eight minutes, and it would still be a killing. Additionally, said autopsy results are questionable given that Mr. Floyd's family is requesting an independent autopsy. Given that George Floyd was literally begging not to be killed, those who oppose the title change are encouraged to explain the mental gymnastics that they must perform to argue that the police officer did not cause Mr. Floyd's death. Lastly, Derek Chauvin is currently being charged for murder. "Murder" is clearly above "killing" in terms of intensity of wording. However, if Mr. Chauvin is found guilty, then the title of this page would reasonably be changed to "Murder of George Floyd." It would be strange to jump from "Death of George Floyd" directly to "Murder of George Floyd" without the reasonable middle level of "Killing of George Floyd." If not now, when there is already clear video evidence, what would be the appropriate time to transition from "Death of George Floyd" to "Killing of George Floyd" before potentially intensifying the wording to "Murder of George Floyd"? '''EDIT (1 June 2020): The independent autopsy conducted at the request of George Floyd's family has concluded that his cause of death was “homicide caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain.” Moreover, while the preliminary report from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office initially did not find asphyxia or strangulation as the cause of death, the county's full report has ruled George Floyd's death a homicide attributed to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”''' [[User:Donutzebra|Donutzebra]] ([[User talk:Donutzebra|talk]]) 23:56, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' - The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, used "killing" in her condemnation of the events.<ref>{{cite web |title=UN Human Rights Chief urges “serious action” to halt US police killings of unarmed African Americans |url=https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25910&LangID=E |website=www.ohchr.org |publisher=OHCHR |accessdate=1 June 2020}}</ref> [[User:Whsun808|Whsun808]] ([[User talk:Whsun808|talk]]) 03:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' the key issue at hand here is NPOV vs. [[WP:Article Titles]]. [[WP:POVTITLE]] states {{tq|When the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title.}} Here, we have no common phrase on the level of the Boston massacre. Both phrases "killing" and "death" are used in media sources, ruling out the possibility of deciding based on usage. In [[WP:CRITERIA]], it really comes down to the "Precision" point. It is more or less unanimously agreed that this is a killing at this point, even by the more conservative sources (see [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/politics/george-floyd-tucker-carlson-rush-limbaugh.html]). Thus this phrase is more precise and at the same time still neutral, as it is a more or less universally agreed upon fact across ideologies. [[User:Sam-2727|Sam-2727]] ([[User talk:Sam-2727|talk]]) 04:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Support''' Move to Premeditated killing/murder of George Floyd. // [[User:Eatcha|Eatcha]] ([[User talk:Eatcha|talk]]) 05:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''' So far, perhaps the most comprehensive examination of Wikipedia's editing norms on this subject is by [[User:Awilley|Awilley]] above. It seems to me that most other opposition explanations also cite Wikipedia norms. On the other hand, an enormous number of supporting explanations cite "common sense," or the video of GF's death, or the definitions of "killing" from various dictionary sources. Only a few cite the preference of many RSes, and even this is split. This argument at least addresses the Wikipedia editorial standard. After reading a few hundred positions, I am unconvinced that this group has yet surpassed the evidentiary requirement for moving an article under such deep scrutiny. I will continue to call GF's death a murder in my own speech, but this encyclopedia's responsibility is not only to avoid activism, but to avoid the appearance of activism. It's not pleasant and it doesn't make me feel good, but it's the right thing to do to oppose. [[User:Rvanarsdale|Rvanarsdale]] ([[User talk:Rvanarsdale|talk]]) 06:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*<s>'''Strong Support'''</s> '''SNOW Support''' And wait for clearer evidence before moving to [[Murder of George Floyd]]. If a man has his knee on another man's neck while the second man is screaming for help while gasping for breath, and then the second man dies of a heart failure, it's beyond dispute that he was killed. Intent is not important. Calling 'Death' a neutral term at this point is an absurdly shallow reading of the situation. Innocent until proven guilty can apply to murder, but not to killing, because killing is not necessarily a criminal charge. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 07:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +::Changed to SNOW support after the independent autopsy reported homicide, which renders most of this discussion moot now. Suggest we close this as soon as possible. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' Look at the [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]]. There are other articles which start with "killing of," although for some reason the word is avoided when it comes to killing by the police. Perhaps we should also be looking at renaming other articles in which people were killed by police officers. "Death" may seem more neutral in tone, but in actuality it is not neutral in that it de-emphasizes the role which Derek Chauvin played in killing George Floyd. Killing is more accurate. [[User:Arumdaum|Arumdaum]] ([[User talk:Arumdaum|talk]]) 10:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +::{{u|Arumdaum}} You need to explain why using death "de-emphasizes" Chauvin's role. I wouldn't cite Harlins article for precedent for this article. Harlins case has already run its course with convictions and official reports. At this time, we don't fully know Chauvin's role in Floyd's death; I think it's safe to say he had a significant role, but under [[WP:OR]] its not up to us its up to reliable sources. Yes a lot of reliable media sources are saying this is a killing, but some other media sources and some official reports like the autopsy don't say killing they emphasize his health conditions and possible intoxicants. Therefore, under [[WP:NPOV]] we need to balance out these two opinions out. Most importantly, what I'm trying to say is that, especially right now, Floyds death being considered a killing is disputed among credible, and it's not wikipedia job to pick a side. Now, maybe later on after everything is said in done we can have this discussion again. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 17:46, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' sanitized wording is not "neutrality", it is just whitewashing. We are not here to cater to people's feelings, we are here to present facts. He was killed. --[[User:Calthinus|Calthinus]] ([[User talk:Calthinus|talk]]) 14:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong oppose''' We need to stick with Wikipedia's convention of using "Death of" to stick to one our strongest principles of NPOV. I know many people have strong emotions about this article, but using Wikipedia to make a point is not the answer. There is nothing encyclopedic about changing the title to "Killing." It's a political statement that Wikipedia should be avoiding as much as possible. [[User:Angryapathy|Angryapathy]] ([[User talk:Angryapathy|talk]]) 18:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC) + +*'''Support''' — "Killing of..." killing is defined as "an act of causing death". WHERE IS THE CONTROVERSY? George Floyd wouldn't have died if the police officer hadn't kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes. "Killing of..." we already know it - whatever health conditions he might have had, he wouldn't have died if the police officer hadn't kneeled on his neck for 8minutes 46 seconds where is the controversy?? [[User:Holaholahulahop|—Holaholahulahop]] +*'''Support''' See [[List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, May 2020]] where George Floyd is listed. See also [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]] and [[Killing of Peter Fechter]]. [[User:Tvc 15|Tvc 15]] ([[User talk:Tvc 15|talk]]) 20:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' as non-neutral and potentially incendiary. We are '''required by policy''' to maintain a neutral point of view, and while there is any non-trivial question about whether it's a "killing/murder" or "accidental death" or what have you, we need to absolutely remain neutral, period. I understand there is a lot of emotion surrounding this, and for good cause, I think. However, we must stay encyclopedic. Once all investigations are complete, and the dust has settled, then would be an appropriate time to consider a move such as this, but for now it's too soon. [[User:Waggie|Waggie]] ([[User talk:Waggie|talk]]) 21:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support'''. He died from these actions (see offical post-mortem), also support the title "Homicide of George Floyd" as declared by official post-mortem. [[User:Banak|Banak]] ([[User talk:Banak|talk]]) 22:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' - kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes will kill them. Per vast numbers of reliable sources, this was a killing. Not describing it as such is a dereliction of [[WP:N]]. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' It's clear to anyone that this was a killing. I'm !supporting now because [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf the official autopsy report] from the county medical examiner has confirmed that this was a homicide. [[User:Davey2116|Davey2116]] ([[User talk:Davey2116|talk]]) 23:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' - Floyd's death was not an accident, as quite a few editors have mentioned already. The murder even looks like a reference to the Kaepernick protests from a few years ago [[User:KohrVid|KohrVid]] ([[User talk:KohrVid|talk]]) 23:20, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' Adding my voice to the chorus that the evidence has mounted with enough credibility that Floyd's death was a killing, whether intentional or not. Death implies too much passivity or happenstance and doesn't capture the nature of the tragic event. P.S. I would advocate for "Murder of.." but I know how ... conservative the Wiki community is (not politically but editing wise) so this is a reasonable compromise. Anyone who disagrees well... I'll let my Twitter speak on that. [[User:Jccali1214|Jccali1214]] ([[User talk:Jccali1214|talk]]) 00:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong Support''' I would support it being changed to "killed" because it is absolutely certain that he was killed by a person. "Death" implies that Mr. Floyd died due to natural and/or accidental causes. We know, based on solid evidence, that this is simply not true. If the article ''title'' says he was killed, the title would more accurately summarize the event. [[User:Ravishsingh00724|Ravishsingh00724]] ([[User talk:Ravishsingh00724|talk]]) +*'''Support''' As per the sourced [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf autopsy report] and other previously mentioned sources. - [[User:Wiz9999|Wiz9999]] ([[User talk:Wiz9999|talk]]) 01:11, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong, speedy, and SNOW support''' per WP:BLUESKY and autopsy. There is consensus for this move and it should done immediately. With all due respect, [[WP:NODEADLINE]] is not applicable on this one. I'm strongly tempted to make the move myself. [[User:Feoffer|Feoffer]] ([[User talk:Feoffer|talk]]) 02:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support'''. Wikipedia should err on the side of caution, but the word 'killing' is without intent. The offical manner of death is homocide, that is, killing.[https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf] Therefore I think it is more important to phrase the article as it is reflected in the current official records. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Pabsoluterince|Pabsoluterince]] ([[User talk:Pabsoluterince#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pabsoluterince|contribs]]) 06:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> + +====Tally==== +{| class="wikitable" +|- +! Support !! Oppose +|- +| 150 || 80 +|} +[Latest update: [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 01:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)] + +100 For, 63 Against as of 11:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC). There will be errors because of the number of votes feel free to edit it. Note I only looked at bold text or text next to a built point and only in the survey section. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 11:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC) + +:Is there any robot to tally automatically? --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC) + +:{{u|RealFakeKim}}, what's this for? Requested moves go for 7 days and it has been 3. Also this is [[WP:NOTVOTE|not a vote]]. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 11:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +:*An easy way to see what the generally opinion is. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 13:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +:::Additionally, the addition of the word "strong" [[WP:STRONG|has no actual bearing]] on the strength of the underlying argument, which is assessed by the editor who closes the discussion and depends on how well-reasoned the arguments are in the context of [[WP:PG|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]], particularly its [[WP:NC|naming conventions]]. [[User:Mz7|Mz7]] ([[User talk:Mz7|talk]]) 17:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +::::Having said that, polls play a valuable role in Wikipedia: they highight just how misleading polls can be in identifying consensus. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 18:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +:::::[[User talk:Serial Number 54129|Serial Number]] Does consensus mean you can defy a policy even if that policy isn't changed nor that policy mentions any exception? If yes, what's the point of having policies if people don't need to follow it and saying Wikipedia is not a democracy? Policies are different than guidelines which people can choose not to follow. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 18:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +::{{ping|DIYeditor}}This is not a vote-only. There were no pure votes and all votes include a statement. It is a discussion with a "support" or "oppose" at the top, it is you that understand it as a vote. --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +::{{u|DIYeditor}}: Do you see only votes on this picture? [[File:Talk-Death of George Floyd 20200601.png|500x500px]] No, they all have a reason. --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +::The title is [[Talk:Death of George Floyd#Survey|"Survey"]], not "Vote". --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:57, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:*Updated to show current positions. I removed Strongly Support and Strongly Oppose as they have no bearing on anything, so Support shows all supporting votes and Oppose shows all Opposing. I did this by doing a Ctrl F and subtracting all those that were stricken, or in explanation, or somewhere else on the page. [[User:AlternateHistoryGuy|AlternateHistoryGuy]] ([[User talk:AlternateHistoryGuy|talk]]) 22:42, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +:*Updated count, it reflects all unambiguous votes so far. (Did not check for duplicate votes, relying on good faith.) [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 01:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Comment''' Our policy is [[WP:NPOV]] and the language of murder or killing is not neutral - is not based on facts in evidence, and does not square with our policy. IMO it does not really matter how many editors stomp their feet and demand that this title be changed to something that is not yet established and violates our policy on neutrality. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 14:00, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +**What is the grounding of neutrality in your opinion? If the majority of reliable sources said that the sky was purple, would we put that on Wikipedia? No, because we are allowed to apply a bit of common sense. The most trustworthy evidence, direct videos of the event, show it to be a killing. To not abide by that bit of common sense would not be neutral. And by the way, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia made by editors. To say that the opinions of editors do not matter as much as a policy guideline is the direct antithesis of what Wikipedia is about. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 16:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +:::{{ping|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo}} We follow policy on Wikipedia, as we did with [[Death of Eric Garner]] who essentially died in the same manner. Sometimes a closer has to assess opinions expressed by passionate editors and then weigh those opinions against our policy. I am not sure how to respond to your hyperbole regarding the sky is purple, but I got your point. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 17:17, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +::::{{ping|Lightburst}} Yes, I understand why policy is useful, and why looking at precedents is also useful in deciding what to do. I was using hyperbole to prove my point: policy and precedents are helpful but they should not dictate actions 100% of the time. (I think this is the idea behind [[WP:IAR]].) This is a case where they may be contradicted by common sense, which says that this is at the very least a killing. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 17:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC) +:'''Oppose''' we should be following the NPOV principles set down by [[Death of Eric Garner]] or [[Death of Kelly Thomas]] etc etc. [[User:Alssa1|Alssa1]] ([[User talk:Alssa1|talk]]) 08:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' - I think [[WP:NPOV]] should explain this one. Using the words “murder” and “killing” is not neutral. Then again, different political groups use different words to politicize an event like this. [[User:RedRiver660|RedRiver660]] ([[User talk:RedRiver660|talk]]) 14:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strongly Support''' The independent autopsy calls this a homocide, so I think this is safe <ref>https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html</ref> [[User:Syryquil1|Syryquil1]] ([[User talk:Syryquil1|talk]]) 21:18, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' following two autopsies that found he was killed. – [[user talk:Anne drew Andrew and Drew|<span style="color:#074">Anne&nbsp;drew</span>]] 23:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''' The police were trying to arrest Floyd, but ended up killing him instead despite bystanders telling one of the officers at the dig to "let him go". '''''[[User:Hansen Sebastian|<span style="color:DD0000">Hansen</span>&nbsp;<span style="color:BBBBBB">Sebastian</span>]]'''''<sup><span style="color:00CCFF">[[user talk:Hansen Sebastian|Talk]]</span></sup> 00:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''': the official autopsy from the county came out, with cause of death listed as "homicide". --[[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 00:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' - since this article is primarily about the events that led to his death, which was caused by another person, and meets the definition of "killing", per reliable sources. [[User:Bneu2013|Bneu2013]] ([[User talk:Bneu2013|talk]]) 01:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Oppose''': I think this would go against the previous precedent of other similar articles. It also wouldn't be neutral or unbiased. [[User:Herbfur|Herbfur]] ([[User talk:Herbfur|talk]]) 03:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong support''' As stated above, there is already precedent in articles such as [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], for example. The obvious killing is supported by the findings of the independent autopsy report released today. [[User:Buffaboy|<span style="font-weight: bold; color: #002C73;">Buffaboy</span>]] [[User talk:Buffaboy|<sup><span style="font-weight: bold; color: #EDA900; ">talk</span></sup>]] 03:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*:Note, though, that in Harlins' case, there was a conviction of the perpetrator for manslaughter. On the other hand, articles like [[Death of Kelly Thomas]] and [[Death of Eric Garner]] which Alssa1 points out above use "Death". The difference between these articles and Harlins' article? In those cases the perpetrators were not tried or convicted. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 09:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Strong Support''' Both the public and independent autopsies have concluded that Floyd's death was a homicide and that the direct cause of death was asphyxiation due to the officers kneeling on him. He was killed. The article absolutely must reflect that. [[User:Waterfire|Waterfire]] ([[User talk:Waterfire|talk]]) 03:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Support''' - He didn't just die randomly, he was killed. [[User:Koridas|Koridas]] <small>(...[[User talk:Koridas|Puerto Rico for statehood!]])</small> 04:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +===Discussion=== +Almost every "oppose" vote argues that a pathology report is needed to ascertain whether Floyd was killed, or implies that "killing" has the same meaning as "murder." +*According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'', the verb "kill" does not necessarily imply intent: {{tq|To put to death; to deprive of life; to slay, slaughter. In early use implying personal agency and the use of a weapon; later, extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an accident, over-work, grief, drink, a disease, etc.}} By contrast, "murder" implies intent: {{tq|To kill (a person) unlawfully, spec. with malice aforethought (in early use often with the additional notion of concealment of the offence); to kill (a person) wickedly, inhumanly, or barbarously.}} Whoever closes this requested move should ignore votes implying that killing and murder are the same, or arguing that a trial and murder conviction are required to rename the article to "killing of..." "To kill" and "to murder" are different verbs in the English language. +*I cannot find a reliable source arguing that Floyd may have died from underlying medical conditions unrelated to the officer pressing his knee down on Floyd's neck, while Floyd begged that he was being killed, and while onlookers exclaimed that Floyd was being killed. Can someone find a source making this argument, or is this pure speculation? +*Many sources refer both to Floyd's death and to his killing, e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52834685 the BBC], [https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-05-28/biden-trump-issue-very-different-calls-for-justice-in-george-floyd-killing US News], [https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-george-floyd-minneapolis-kass-20200528-6rjhnhggezgotdfiieqvcrcfpy-story.html the Chicago Tribune], [https://www.thecut.com/2020/05/man-pinned-down-by-minneapolis-police-officer-dies.html the Cut], [https://sports.yahoo.com/george-floyd-death-nfl-players-duane-brown-kaepernick-223813104.html Yahoo News], [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/entertainment/george-floyd-ice-cube-trnd/index.html CNN], [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/hundreds-protest-police-death-of-george-floyd-in-minneapolis.html NY Magazine], [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/us-police-officers-fired-rehired-why the Guardian], [https://time.com/5842687/george-floyd-killed-minneapolis-police/ TIME], [https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/pictures-hundreds-demand-justice-george-floyd-200527133305569.html Al Jazeera], [https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/28/univ-of-minnesota-police-dept-george-floyd-death-killing/ TMZ], [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-protests-turn-violent-over-minneapolis-mans-death-while-in-police/ The Globe and Mail], [https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-pictures/minneapolis-george-floyd-protest-police-killing-photos-1005678/ Rolling Stone], [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499899-doj-george-floyd-death-investigation-a-top-priority The Hill], and so forth. At this point "Killing of George Floyd" returns more google hits than "Death of George Floyd." +Arguments that murder and killing are the same, that a pathology report is needed, or that reliable sources don't use this phrase, are all false. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC) + +*To be fair, COMMONNAME in RS is split down the middle. There are just as many sources using either title suggested to refer to the incident. This is a very old dispute on Wikipedia, going back years. Here are some examples that I have participated in: +**[[Talk:Shooting_of_Ahmaud_Arbery/Archive_5#Requested_move_12_May_2020]] +**[[Talk:Shooting_of_Terence_Crutcher#Requested_move_23_November_2019]] +**[[Talk:Shooting_of_Atatiana_Jefferson#Requested_move_14_May_2020]] +:We may need a bigger RfC to solve this often brought up dispute. <s>While I !voted oppose above,</s> I usually agree with changing these titles to "Killing of". The biggest argument RMs have faced is that there is precedent established by the many "Death of" and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Shooting+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1 "Shooting of"] article about police involved killings. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 23:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC) + +I've noticed a shift over the course of this Requested Move from "oppose" to "support". That implies that the facts of the event are still coming out, and this Requested Move was started too quickly. Should this be speedily closed as too soon? [[User:Benica11|Benica11]] ([[User talk:Benica11|talk]]) 00:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* Agree with the above. The facts of the case have evolved, which renders many of the initial "opposes" questionable and helps explain why there has been a shift to more support votes. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +* Based on the understanding that this is an encyclopedia, dealing with common knowledge, not a work of forensic/scientific nature, I support. It is not an interpretation of a video, it has become common knowledge that it was a killing and its public interest (what legitimates it as encyclopedic interest) is the fact that it was an act of brutal violence, regardless technical scrutiny. +So, if not 'killing of...' then perhaps it would be more clear to express the idea of 'brutal death circumstances of ...' [[User:HM7Me|HM7Me]] ([[User talk:HM7Me|talk]]) 02:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*'''Comment''' In other cases, the way the person died is often used in the title, hence "shooting of...". How about [[Suffocation of George Floyd]] as an alternative. Just an idea. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 02:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:{{U|HAL333}} Is there are coroner's report that says he died of suffocation? If that were the case I think we would just go with "killing". Otherwise it's not demonstrated. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 03:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*::Anyone with a modicum of medical training or common sense will recognize that digging a knee into someone’s neck for a prolonged period of time will kill them. Hence Floyd’s cries that he was being killed, protests by onlookers that he was being killed, and RS statements and headlines that he was killed. As {{u|GorillaWarfare}} pointed out, we don’t speculate on whether someone died of a heart attack when they were shot to death. And I can’t find a single RS suggesting that Floyd died of some cause unrelated to the knee digging into his neck. There is none. This argument is spurious. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 04:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::Anyone with a modicum of medical training or common sense will recognize that we do not know what he died of, and will not know until the medical examiner's report is issued. Just as some examples, we don't know if he passed out because is airway was constricted or if it was the arteries, or maybe it was the chest compression. Or maybe he was poisoned. We don't know. All we're doing for now is speculating based on videos--that is not a medical diagnosis. Anyway, it doesn't matter what we think we saw on the video. All that matters is what RSes call it, and I agree with C&C that as of now, RSes are split on the usage. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 04:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::{{u|Darouet}} What you or I think is common sense is irrelevant. Frankly, I might get blocked if I said what I thought of the kneeling officer and what he did. Most of the RSs I've seen say "died" rather than "killed" but I haven't analyzed a breakdown by percentage. This is not a case where someone was shot, which I think would have no equivocation in the sources at all - it would be described as "killed" in every source! Instead from what I have seen most of the best sources are cautiously saying he died, responsibly waiting for a cause of death to be determined. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*::::When an article covers the "Shooting of John Doe", shooting isn't necessarily the direct cause of death. It might be massive internal bleeding, or a ruptured stomach. Whatever Floy died of directly, suffocation caused it. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 13:30, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::::There are a variety of ways that he could have died as a result of a knee being on his neck for several minutes, which do not necessarily have anything to do with suffocation. The most likely of those alternatives is blocked bloodflow to the brain --[[User:Gimmethegepgun|Gimmethegepgun]] ([[User talk:Gimmethegepgun|talk]]) 16:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*::::::{{u|Darouet}} and {{u|HAL333}} now that an autopsy has been released that indicates it was indeed heart disease and that there are no signs strangulation or suffocation caused it, do you see the problem with the OR assumptions you made? [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 06:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +*:::::::{{u|DIYeditor}} I do. As I said before, it was just an idea. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 15:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)It seems like the titling of these sorts of articles is currently all over the place, and thus potentially subject to biases. For example, try looking up "prefix:Killing_of", "prefix:Death_of", "prefix:Murder_of", etc. in the search bar. [[User:Loooke|Loooke]] ([[User talk:Loooke|talk]]) 04:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +Statement by Hennepin County Medical Examiner on 5/28 [https://www.fox9.com/news/medical-examiner-awaiting-final-lab-results-in-floyd-case-before-making-cause-of-death-ruling]: +:{{tq|"The Medical Examiner recognizes the public expectation for timely, accurate, and transparent information release, within the confines of Minnesota law," read the statement released Thursday. "However, the autopsy alone cannot answer all questions germane to the cause and manner of death, and must be interpreted in the context of the pertinent investigative information and informed by the results of laboratory studies."}} +I understand emotions are running high. I understand what the video looks like. I completely understand how the video makes people feel and that it may seem insulting to say we don't know how Floyd died. The fact is, we don't have a reliable source for how he died and the various reliable sources covering this are not consistent in how they describe the events. As soon as a Medical Examiner's report is in calling this a homicide or something equivalent I will support moving this to "Killing of George Floyd". [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:Despite what someone said above about medical training, this discussion goes to show what we think we see and what is there are not the same thing. How can it be "suffocation" when the man was speaking? He ''felt'' like he couldn't breathe. He felt like his stomach and everything else hurt. Cleary he's in fear of his life. Kneeling on the man's neck from the back is not actually obstructing the airway through the mouth and nose--that's what suffocation is. What's going here is something else, like pinching nerves and/or an artery, blood flow, etc. We can't be anywhere near as specific as the cause of death. That's interpretation.[[User:ZarhanFastfire|ZarhanFastfire]] ([[User talk:ZarhanFastfire|talk]]) 09:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +::This is completely irrelevant: how does a pinched nerve, blocked blood flow, suffocation, etc. influence the semantic question of whether he was killed? It doesn't. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +*{{u| DIYeditor}} Did you see Michael Baden's independent autopsy? He concluded Floyd died of asphyxiation. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">'''HAL'''</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 19:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +Why is this a debate, he was killed. When you stick your knee into someone who is on the ground handcuffed and unable to defend himself, it is a murder, however we can’t say that until the police officer is charged. + +In conclusion, it is a killing, so please change the title. +[[Special:Contributions/2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C|2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C]] ([[User talk:2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C|talk]]) 06:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:The Coroner just ruled that it was not an asphyxiation-caused death. [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-died-police-restraint-combined-health/] [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 22:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:::Here is the full report. [https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf] [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 23:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 +::And this is why we wait for reliable information instead of rushing into matters haphazardly. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 22:20, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:: That certainly needs to be added to the article. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 22:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:: That article explicitly attributes blame to the police officer's actions, all it says is that he wasn't strangled or suffocated in the traditional sense. It doesn't say he would have died anyway, it says the police contributed to his death. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 23:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC) +:::So if he wouldn't have died ''but for the restraints'', the officer is to "blame"? Being a but-for cause doesn't make you blameworthy. Else, the shop owner was to blame for calling the cops, for without that intervention, the incident would never have occurred. It needs to be shown that what the officer did was culpable. +:::For an act to be criminal, you have to show it was unreasonable and (depending on the offence) dangerous. A knee applied with enough force to effectively strangle a man is, obviously, unreasonable and dangerous. But the less force it was applied with, the less likely it was either of those two things. To be clear, I am not saying this is true. I am merely pointing out that it does in fact change things. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 00:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +:::Now that we have the new autopsy report with the homicide ruling, can we please close this discussion and do the move? [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC) + +'''Accidentally kill''' https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/nov/29/what-happens-to-your-life-after-you-accidentally-kill-someone +'''unintentional killing ''' https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/involuntary-manslaughter-overview.html +No killing does not mean intentional or murder.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:14, 30 May 2020 (UTC) + +:*After the release of an initial medical examiner's report, the BBC nevertheless announces in the very first sentence of their article on the topic this morning [https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52857334]: +::{{talk quote|Protesters have clashed with police in cities across the US over the '''killing''' of an unarmed African-American man '''at the hands of officers''' in Minneapolis.}} +::Agreeing with {{u|Slatersteven}}, {{u|Doc James}}, {{u|NaveenNkadalaveni}}, {{u|MrX}}, {{u|HAL333}}, the ''BBC'', and a now very substantial majority commenting and voting on this RfC. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 13:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +:::At its core, opposers are arguing that we don't have enough information imply causation at this time, which "killing" most certainly presupposes.I understand that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and that other RS articles have used "killing", but that does not necessarily mean it is the most accurate or neutral term. If/when the coroner confirms that the actions of the officer directly caused the death of the Floyd, I'm game for the move, but until then, I would argue that "death" is the most neutral term we can use at this time. [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 17:15, 30 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500 +*'''Comment''' Now that the autopsy report is out, and we have a charge, some observations. + +{{quote|The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death. +The defendant had his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds in total. Two minutes and 53 seconds of this was after Mr. Floyd was non-responsive. '''Police are trained that this type of restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous.'''}} +(emphasis added). + +I will point out that when referring to the medical situation, the legal principle of [[Eggshell skull]] applies - it's not even a legal defence. But we're not currently debating the legal situation of culpability, but the act of "killing" - which isn't necessarily unlawful. The autopsy suggests against "traumatic asphyxia or strangulation" - but [[Positional asphyxia]] is not discussed. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 13:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC) +:Thin-skull rule means that you take your victim as you find them, as it relates to causation and the actus reus. Thin-skull is important as it can defeat the mens rea element. For example, I might slap my neighbour and he might die because I slapped him on his thin skull; but I do not have the intent to cause death or really serious harm (for the English definition of murder). In contrast, if I kill my neighbour by applying enough force to defeat an ordinarily formed skull, I am more likely to have murderous intent. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 18:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC) + +::::Let's be clear. The ME has not ruled on a cause of death. The criminal complaint says that "The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation", and states that several factors "likely" contributed to his death. This is not a final determination of causation and we cannot go beyond these '''preliminary''' findings. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 13:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC) + +*'''Comment''' - I already put my oppose in the survey, but I would like to elaborate on it some. We can't seem to agree fully on what the definition of "killing" is; however, we can at least agree that it means for one person to take the life of another. As of this moment, we don't know fully know if George Floyd was killed by that police officer; according to the autopsy section it doesn't appear clear what killed him. In order to remain fully neutral and stay in accordance with NPOV, we need to only base the title with the available facts. I've noticed a lot of the the supports say something like "the video is clear he was killed by that cop," it's not our place under [[WP:OR]] to decide if Floyd was killed by that officer. Yes some news sources have said that; however, I don't think those sources can be used in this context only official reports like the autopsy and later convictions. At the very least, this move needs to be closed with no consensus until we get all the facts straight. All we know is George Floyd is dead, and the title needs to reflect that fact. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 08:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC) + +*'''Support'''. I will try to limit this comment to novel arguments—note that I concur with the arguments given above; reliable sources refer to the event as the killing of George Floyd, and it is clear from the video that he was killed. "Death of George Floyd" is not a neutral title. Though it is true that the killing of a man would also be his death, Wikipedia does not exist in a vacuum, and using the term ''death'' when ''killing'' is the more common usage draws attention to itself. The title "Death of George Floyd" seems to take a side on the matter as much as "Killing of George Floyd"; though intended as a neutral description, it is distractingly obvious that the word ''killing'' has been avoided. [[User:Kilopylae|Kilopylae]] ([[User talk:Kilopylae|talk]]) 13:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:{{u|Kilopylae}} why is death not a nuetral term? You mentioned that "killing" is what's commonly used by reliable sources, by reliable sources I'm assuming you mean news/media references generally seen as credible. However, under [[WP:NPOV]] we are supposed to balance these often bias media sources with more objective sources let say like the autopsy (in my opinion the autopsy/official reports should trump media sources). A death isn't always natural; therefore, killing or even murder would fall under the term death. Therefore, "death" would please people who think George Floyd was killed and the rather minute amount of people who think he may have died from some natural or other unspecified causes. You can't say that using the term "death" is just as much picking a side as using "killing" because it's not, "death" is a broad term that fits pretty much every criteria. Also, we need to take in account precedent ([[Death of Eric Garner]]). The dictionary and precedent favor "death" as a neutral term over "killing." [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 17:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +::{{u|Iamreallygoodatcheckers}}, autopsies are [[WP:PRIMARY]]. It's not clear that ''The Hennepin County Medical Examiner'' is an '''independent''' source. That very issue has been raised by Mr Floyd's family, who have requested an independent autopsy. +:: +::Ergo placing this questionable primary source above respected secondary sources I think would be a grave mistake. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +{{dedent}} +And, having just googled the above, I encountered: {{tq|'''An independent autopsy into the death of George Floyd found that his death was a homicide and the unarmed black man died of "asphyxiation from sustained pressure."'''}}<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref> Dedented because I think this is an important development. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Comment''' the county medical examiner's office just ruled this a homicide. There is not a single source suggesting Floyd died of natural causes, not even fringe sources which should have no bearing anyway. Why is this even still a discussion at this point? [[User:Smartyllama|Smartyllama]] ([[User talk:Smartyllama|talk]]) 22:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +:: Source<ref> Official post-mortem declares Floyd death homicide https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52886593</ref> (I'm sure there are others...) [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 22:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC) + +'''Call for change of vote''' Most of the oppose votes above hinged on the fact that from neutrality considerations, we should wait for an autopsy report to indicate that the death was not from natural causes. Now that an independent autopsy has established it was a homicide<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref>, I request these members to change their votes to support. I also believe this now falls under [[WP:SNOW]], as it is difficult to argue now in good faith that it's not neutral to call it a killing. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC) +: Both the official autopsy report and pathologists hired by the Floyd family, including former New York chief medical examiner Dr. [[Michael Baden]], conclude that homicide was cause of death.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Stelloh |first1=Tim |title=George Floyd's death ruled a homicide by medical examiner |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/george-floyd-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-n1221431 |website=NBC News |publisher=NBC News Digital |accessdate=2 June 2020}}</ref> Those that argue that we should wait for a jury's verdict are in error, because a jury determines whether a victim of a homicide was in fact murdered in the strictly legal sense (as opposed to, say, an accidental killing). But ''all'' homicide victims are "killed." So all who argued that we should wait for the autopsy should change their votes. +: [[User:Dylanexpert|Dylanexpert]] ([[User talk:Dylanexpert|talk]]) 02:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +'''Oppose''' Violates [[WP:MOS]]. [[User:Nightvour|Nightvour]] ([[User talk:Nightvour|talk]]) 01:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +'''Make the move immediately'''. We like to say There Is No Deadline, but that doesn't really apply here. We have to choose between two titles, and our editors clearly favor "killing" as more befitting for all manner of reasons, particularl in light of filed charges and medical results. [[User:Feoffer|Feoffer]] ([[User talk:Feoffer|talk]]) 02:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +{{reflist-talk}} + +Comment. The Medical Examiner has come to the same ruling of homicide as the private autopsy. [[User:IssaRevol|IssaRevol]] ([[User talk:IssaRevol|talk]]) 04:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +*'''Support'''. Both autopsies conclude that the death occured because of the neck compression by the law enforcement officer. The only difference is that the medical examiner's office claims that the combination of the neck compression with the underlying health problems caused the death. Also the term "death" doesn't disambiguates whether the death occurred by natural causes or not in contrary with the more clear terms like "killing" and "murder".[https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy cnn] [[User:Gnslps|Gnslps]] ([[User talk:Gnslps|talk]]) 04:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +*'''Strong Oppose:''' I feel that if we start using the word murder, killed, etc. it can be considered incite full even down the road putting us where we are now in this world. I prefer we stick with Death of as we (as a community have previously done on a lot of these types of articles. If this were to be changed as things kinda boil down to cold water and the country gets a hold on this without affecting BLP and what orange guy in the White House decides to do over the next couple of days or weeks based on his statements on June 1, 2020 I feel we need to leave this at Death of for the time being. This is also still an ongoing investigation so there will be other things that come into play I’m sure. [[Special:Contributions/2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3|2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3]] ([[User talk:2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3|talk]]) 08:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +*'''Comment''' - I'm legitimately interested to know what a move for this article would mean for the [[Death of Eric Garner]] article, then, since the two cases are extremely similar. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 08:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Oppose''' Just see the Blacl Lives Matter-template See below): except for the [[Murder of Botham Jean]], every victim has a ''Death of X'' or a ''Shooting of X''-article. This case is not special enough to break this consistancy. [[User:Jeff5102|Jeff5102]] ([[User talk:Jeff5102|talk]]) 08:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +* '''Strong support''' if after charges/convictions are made, but Derek literally killed George Floyd. The video footage clearly demonstrates that. One person said "video" is a piece of indispensable evidence, and can be seen by many. [[User:ROBLOXGamingDavid|ROBLOXGamingDavid]] ([[User talk:ROBLOXGamingDavid|talk]]) 09:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +{{Black Lives Matter}} +* '''Oppose''' [[Death of Eric Garner]] and [[Death of Jonny Gammage]] were both asphyxiated by police, both were labeled homicide by the coroner. These 3 cases are exactly the same. Everybody seems to be ignoring these examples when they are mentioned. Are we going to change those articles as well? [[User:Dkspartan1835|Dkspartan1835]] ([[User talk:Dkspartan1835|talk]]) 09:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC) + +Yes. Change those articles as well. Homicide is synonymous with killing, let Wikipedia say things as it is. [[User:Phonehead|Phonehead]] ([[User talk:Phonehead|talk]]) 09:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC) +{{cob}} +{{rm bottom}} '
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[ 0 => '', 1 => '', 2 => '== Hand In Pocket -- Not ==', 3 => '', 4 => 'Current content: "Chauvin is seen on video applying pressure with his knee to Floyd's neck while his hand is in his pocket"', 5 => '', 6 => 'Chauvin's left hand is wearing a black glove, and his pants are also black. It may appear to many that his hand is in a pocket. But, on close watching of the entire raw video from bystander smartphone (in the first few seconds, for example)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMN35n4UVSA&bpctr=1591106067 [Video<nowiki>]</nowiki>], it is clear to me that Chauvin's left hand is in a fist and resting on his upper thigh. I have heard several commentaries that cite the hand in pocket while lamenting an apparent casual demeanor of this officer.', 7 => '', 8 => 'This inaccuracy should be corrected. [[User:Clutterslave|Clutterslave]] ([[User talk:Clutterslave|talk]]) 14:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 9 => '', 10 => ':{{fixed}}. I have added this fact to the article, with a citation to the video. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 14:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 11 => '', 12 => '== How is the new autopsy independent when the pathologists were hired by the deceased relatives? ==', 13 => '', 14 => 'First it says "On May 30, Floyd's family's legal team confirmed that they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson to conduct an autopsy.", and then "On May 31, the independent autopsy was conducted.". How is the autopsy independent? By that logic, the first autopsy was also independent. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Anetherion|contribs]]) 10:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->', 15 => '', 16 => ':Dr. Wlilson is the director of autopsy and forensic services at the University of Michigan Medical School. That's independent. The county medical examiner is not independent as they work with the police. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 10:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 17 => '', 18 => '::"they had hired" as in they were paid to do that. How can you say that is independent? For it to be truly independent, it would have to be performed and paid for by a third party, unrelated to the whole ordeal. [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion|talk]]) 10:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 19 => ':::I would agree, neither are independent.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 20 => ':::Independent is used in the sources and has been used in such cases as long as I can remember. The Michigan Medical School is independent, unless it can be shown that they are paid to lie. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 21 => '::::"they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson", they had hired them personally, how is their workplace relevant? 1.) "sources" are not always correct, 2.) it being that way "for as long as you can remember" still does not mean it is the right way. Like I wrote above, unless it is conducted and paid for by a third party, it is NOT independent. [[User:Anetherion|Anetherion]] ([[User talk:Anetherion|talk]]) 11:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 22 => ':::::We go by sourcing, not by personal opinion of editors. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 11:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 23 => '', 24 => ':Its all rather academic as the second "official" autopsy has called homicide as well.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 11:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 25 => ':I do agree that "independent" is probably the wrong word for it. By definition, the autopsy comes from an interested party. A "private autopsy" was used by the BBC makes more sense, imho. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 12:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 26 => '::Wikipedia goes by what the majority of sources call it. Try to understand that when the media speaks of an independent autopsy, they just mean a private autopsy independent of the official autopsy conducted by the jurisdiction's coroner, and not independent of an interested party who is paying for it. If there's a concern that this Wikipedia article is misleading the reader, we can ameliorate that by using expanded language like "an independent autopsy paid for by Floyd's family," or even "an independent private autopsy" with cites to both descriptions from the media. The only other thing I would note here is that under state law, the county medical examiner is a "neutral and independent office and is separate and distinct from any prosecutorial authority or law enforcement agency," so we wouldn't say that they aren't independent because they "work with the police," but calling the official autopsy "independent" in the article would probably just cause confusion. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 27 => ':::If the sourcing says "independent", then that's what the article should say. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 12:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 28 => ':::The law may state that medical examiners must be “neutral and independent”; but there have been scandals related to medical examiner results when police are involved. That’s one reason some people pay for independent autopsies. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 13:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 29 => '::::Sure, there have been scandals in the past, this is why legislatures have added those laws to put ethics restrictions in place. My only point there was that we can't imply here that the county medical examiner "works with the police." [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ', 30 => '::Update: I just noticed that someone swapped out the word "independent" with "private" 30 minutes ago, so I've added "independent" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_George_Floyd&type=revision&diff=960346944&oldid=960346782 back to the lead], such that it reads "An independent private autopsy." At this point, I think it would be preferable to just include both words rather than editors pushing to have their preferred word used while trying to exclude the other. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 31 => ':::Private is an odd word since the results are public and the autopsy was performed by a public school. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 13:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 32 => '::::LOL, which in the UK mean a private school. But it is off as whilst it was privately funded it was not "private".[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 33 => ':::::What we've got going on here is a conflation of terms. Whether or not a school is public or private is a different concept (in use of terms) in relation to whether an autopsy was an official autopsy (conducted by the authorities) versus a private autopsy (conducted by anyone else). [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 34 => '::::Private has many different senses; we shouldn't conflate them. To clarify the claim "the autopsy was performed by a public school". Are we sure the autopsy was performed by the University of Michigan? The media reports seem to suggest that Dr Baden and Dr Wilson were hired by Floyd's family's attorneys. Do we know it was done in the official capacity as faculty members of University of Michigan? Or that it was done pro bono (see: "hire" in numerous news outlets). For example, I might hire a moonlighting police officer to bodyguard me; it would make little sense to claim that my bodyguarding needs are met by a "public body". [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 14:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 35 => '', 36 => 'OK, as others have said, lets go with what RS say, and not our own suppositions.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 37 => '', 38 => '== George Floyd History ==', 39 => '', 40 => 'Why is there nothing in the GEORGE FLOYD bio section of this article about his past criminal history? He was convicted of multiple things, most notably ARMED ROBBERY which is pretty significant.', 41 => 'Why is he presented in an incomplete manner.', 42 => 'All across Wikipedia in the personal section OF ANYONE i HAVE EVEN LOOKED UP THERE IS FULL DISCLOSURE, ESPECIALLY ABOUT ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH BREAKING THE LAW. ', 43 => 'I think that there is deliberate omission. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:CiaSmi64|CiaSmi64]] ([[User talk:CiaSmi64#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CiaSmi64|contribs]]) 18:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->', 44 => ':I'm sorry, but the reason that it's omitted is because this is about the ''death'' of George Floyd, not ''about'' George Floyd. Thanks, <span style="font-family:Avenir">[[User:Thanoscar21|'''Thanoscar21''']]<sub>[[User talk:Thanoscar21|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Thanoscar21|contribs]]</sub></span> 18:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 45 => ':::Then why is there information about his athletic accomplishments? [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 18:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500', 46 => '::::There is an RfC about it above [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Death_of_George_Floyd#RFC_on_Floyd's_criminal_past]. And of course good RS specifically ''about his death'', such as [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-who-was-he-his-friends-words this article in Guardian] and many others, do mention this episode. ''We should significantly expand his biography section and include this info''. As you noted, there is no logic to selectively hide any important biographic information. We just say what RS say ''on this subject''. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 18:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 47 => ':::::I'll just add that BBC has also acknowledged this aspect of Floyd's past (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936). [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 19:03, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500', 48 => '::::::Someone will probably remove it. I would wait until the closing of the RfC. But just to clarify, according to your BBC source,', 49 => '::::::{{Quotation2|His life then took a different turn, with a string of arrests for theft and drug possession culminating in an armed robbery charge in 2007, for which he was sentenced to five years in prison. He became involved in his local ministry, Resurrection Houston, after his release and was intent on making changes in himself and his neighbourhood, says Mr Lillard. "While he was embracing his own life change, he was looking around at his community" ...}} ', 50 => '::::::This is an important info to include if anyone wants to understand what kind of person he was. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 51 => ':::::::{{u|My very best wishes}}, is what kind of person he was important to understanding this incident? [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 19:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 52 => '::::::::Well, this is all in the BBC source. One should just read it further: ''"A video of Floyd decrying gun violence, believed to be filmed in 2017, has circulated on social media, in which he implored young people to "come home". His family told the Houston Chronicle he moved to Minnesota in 2018 after being encouraged by friends through a Christian work programme.'' Christopher Harris, a friend and former classmate, told US media Mr Floyd "was looking to start over fresh, a new beginning". "He was happy with the change he was making," he added.''', 53 => '::::::::So, basically, this is someone who was capable to understand his mistakes and make life better for himself and others. This is highly commendable. But without telling that he made mistakes, there is no real person, there is no character. That's why journalists from Guardian, BBC, and other sources described it. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 54 => ':::::::::Yes, commendable, but the question I think was "how is that relevant with regards to his death?" Did any of that contribute to his death? Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 14:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 55 => '', 56 => '=="Chauvin put his full body weight on Floyd's neck"==', 57 => '{{ping|Shadybabs}} You've added "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=960178183&oldid=960176432 Chauvin put his full body weight onto Floyd's neck]" directly into the lead, based on a comment in a local [[City Pages]] article, not stated in any mainstream reliable sources. That's materially misleading and would have only been possible if Chauvin had knelt with both of his knees on Floyd's neck (to put his full body weight on it). As seen in the video he has one knee on the pavement and one knee on Floyd; you have to sort out sources for NPOV, verfiability, and in this case, WP:WEIGHT (no pun intended; this is not funny stuff). Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 14:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 58 => ':I agree. I've tagged it. If someone can't produce better sources, it will be removed. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 15:06, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 59 => ':While I strongly believe that the article should address all aspects of the police misconduct, it should do so accurately, and should not use other wiki pages as sources. Either cite an external source and reword or remove. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 15:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 60 => ':It would also have been possible if he had managed to balance himself on only one knee and having his other leg off the ground, but that obviously didn't happen either. A physical impossibility definitely needs good sources. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 16:07, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 61 => '::Thanks for tagging. Circling back just now, I see another editor has conformed the text to a better source [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=960197776&oldid=960197363 as seen here], so the problem is resolved. I was initially drawn to this issue because the original editor added the unsourced content "''Chauvin would continue to forcefully grind his bodyweight directly onto Floyd's neck as he struggled''" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=959817905&oldid=959817111 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_George_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=959821531 here] two days ago. Editors should not be making stuff up like that, especially with people's perceptions inflamed right now. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]])', 62 => '', 63 => ':::The second autopsy is saying asphyxiation.[https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html] ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 19:42, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 64 => '', 65 => ':In general, that's not exactly true. You could put 90 percent of your weight on one knee, with the other knee positioned just for balance. But sourcing is needed. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 11:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 66 => '', 67 => '::90% is not "full body weight", but the thrust here is that an editor was seeking to characterize the event from their POV, then looking for a source to fit that POV. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 68 => ':::Yes. But if you're only using the second knee for balance, it could be well above 50 percent. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 14:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 69 => '', 70 => '== Add Chauvin maces witness (on video) ==', 71 => '', 72 => '{{edit semi-protected|Killing of George Floyd|answered=yes}}', 73 => 'Since links to FB video are now added in article, can we add the macing incident to Arrest and Death/Timeline ? At 4:32 in video, "Chauvin grabs a canister from his belt and sprays towards a witness approaching Floyd, and another witness says 'He just got maced'. Chauvin later returns canister to belt.(at 4:55) [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 14:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 74 => '', 75 => ':{{not done}} The link in question is to the primary source without commentary and accompanies the text talking about the primary source being created. What you want is [[WP:OR|original research]], i.e. using the same primary source to add a fact ("witness got maced by Chauvin") which the source does not support (you cannot actually see that). As such, we need a [[WP:RS|reliable]] [[WP:PSTS|secondary source]] that actually says so. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 14:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 76 => '', 77 => 'Test [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 15:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 78 => '', 79 => 'But the source supports these facts. The actions are audible and visible: Chauvin unclips canister from belt, moves hand towards sidewalk, audio sound of spraying noise commences, Chauvin continues to hold canister while kneeing Floyd's neck, then puts canister back on belt. Why would a secondary source be necessary? [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 15:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 80 => ':If so then why have no RS noticed and commented on it?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 15:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 81 => '', 82 => 'Very good question. I wonder about it as well. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 83 => ':I think that ends this, as that is virtually an admission this is just your interpretation.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 84 => '', 85 => 'Maybe... the macing incident can be interpreted by legal professionals as evidence of an intent to kill, and creates a possible liability issue for a published secondary source... [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 86 => '', 87 => 'Not an admission to an interpretation. Sorry. [[User:Pasdecomplot|Pasdecomplot]] ([[User talk:Pasdecomplot|talk]]) 16:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 88 => '', 89 => ':See "At one point Chauvin reached for his mace to threaten the bystanders while continuing to kneel on the man."[https://unicornriot.ninja/2020/minneapolis-police-murder-handcuffed-man-with-neck-kneel/] [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 16:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 90 => '::Not sure that is an RS, certainly not for a [[wp:blp]].[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 91 => ':::[[Unicorn Riot]] is definitely not an RS [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 92 => '', 93 => 'See "Chauvin keeps his knee pressed into Floyd’s neck and Floyd stops talking. About four minutes into the video, Floyd becomes unresponsive. Bystanders approach Chauvin and the officer draws something, causing one of the people off-camera to say, “He’s got mace.”"[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/26/george-floyd-minneapolis-police-officers-fired-after-public-backlash/5263193002/] [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 16:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 94 => ':That would be barley enough to say "and one person said he had drawn a mace can", in no way does it support "Chauvin maces witness" or even" Chauvin drew a maces can".[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 95 => '::I made [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_George_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=960381183 this change]. There could be more sources that discuss it. [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 17:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 96 => ':::I will not revert it, even thought I said it is barely enough to pass muster (see [[wp:unue]]). I would suggest finding a few more sources before someone else does.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 17:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 97 => '', 98 => '{{Clear}}', 99 => '== What was Chauvin's endgame? ==', 100 => '{{atopy', 101 => '| status = ', 102 => '| result = [[WP:NOTFORUM]] for speculation. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 12:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 103 => '}}', 104 => '', 105 => '', 106 => '', 107 => 'Perhaps editors familiar with law enforcement can answer this question. Had Floyd not expired, when would Chauvin have released his knee from Floyd? Was he waiting for backup, or Floyd to tap out, or when he had established his "superiority"? What typically happens in such a situation when death is not the outcome? Thanks, [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 10:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 108 => ':We are not a general forum to discuss this topic.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 109 => '::What is meant by {{tq|"tap out"}}? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:14, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 110 => ':::Submission. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 11:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 111 => '::::Yes, but "submission" was present. Submission was expressed verbally by George Floyd. And submission prevails when handcuffed behind one's back, prone, face down, surrounded by police officers. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 112 => '', 113 => '::::[https://www.ctinsider.com/local/greenwichtime/article/The-Mother-Lode-As-he-lay-dying-George-Floyd-15315226.php Floyd called out to the police, addressing Chauvin with “Sir” and “Please officer, I can’t breathe.” He called out to the crowd of people watching: “They gon’ kill me.” But there was one call that will not stop echoing in my head, and that’s the call to his mother. “I can’t move … mama … mama … I can’t.”] This constitutes verbal "submission". [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 114 => ':::::Yes, we know all that. My question is, had the ambulance not been called and had he not died, how might the situation have been resolved? [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 11:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 115 => '::::::{{tq|"how might the situation have been resolved?"}} I don't know. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will weigh in. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 116 => ':::::::Let's not speculate. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 11:59, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 117 => '::::::::I thought the question would depend on the consequences of suspicion of attempted use of counterfeit currency, or something like that. That would be a legal question. I happen to be ignorant of the topic. Would arrest ensue? Would a court appearance be required? Etc. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 12:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)', 118 => '{{abot}}', 119 => '', 120 => '== Requested move 27 May 2020 ==', 121 => '{{rm top|'''moved'''. I'm choosing to expedite this move rather than wait the full 7 days due to sizable interest and participation. I note that many of those opposing the move did so ''before'' the Hennepin County Medical Examiner had concluded that the death was a homicide. As such and in light of this key argument, I am deeming there being sufficient consensus for moving the title. It is important to note that this assessment on my part was based on the strength of the arguments, not the aggregate tally. It is also important to mention that this expedited close was not a [[WP:SNOW]] close. While this was a lively debate, I don't think prolonging it is likely to change the outcome or would be a benefit for the project. I thank the overwhelming majority of participants for their well-thought-out arguments as well as for their civil disposition. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 11:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 122 => ':It's been suggested that I expand on my evaluation of the arguments advanced in this discussion. With respect to [[WP:COMMONNAME]], the mention by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] has been mixed, so that argument was not really weighed one way or the other in my evaluation. With respect to [[WP:BLPCRIME]], as one participant who has changed their preference from oppose to support has noted: killing is not necessarily a crime. The fact is that many participants who opposed asked to wait for the ME report, which, as mentioned, has since deemed the death to be a homicide. The arguments advanced in the discussion whose strength was given most weight in this close neither concluded that this homicide was a ''murder'' nor that it was a ''justifiable homicide.'' It was rather overwhelmingly agreed that that is a matter for the courts to decide. Those arguments only posited that, for now, the the title should reflect the official finding by the ME. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 13:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)}} ', 123 => '', 124 => '', 125 => '[[:Death of George Floyd]] → {{no redirect|Killing of George Floyd}} – While murder isn't appropriate for an ongoing investigation, "killing" seems an appropriate description of events, and is backed up by a reliable source.<ref>{{Cite news|last=Goyette|first=Jared|date=2020-05-27|title=Hundreds demand justice in Minneapolis after police killing of George Floyd|language=en-GB|work=The Guardian|url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/george-floyd-killing-minneapolis-protest-police|access-date=2020-05-27|issn=0261-3077}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news|last=Sabur|first=Rozina|date=2020-05-26|title=George Floyd: Protests erupt in Minneapolis after death of black man pinned down by white police officer|language=en-GB|work=The Telegraph|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/26/fbi-investigate-death-black-man-pinned-white-police-officer/|access-date=2020-05-27|issn=0307-1235}}</ref> On the other hand, other sources call it a "death".<ref>{{Cite news|date=2020-05-27|title=Death of US black man in custody sparks clashes|language=en-GB|work=BBC News|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097|access-date=2020-05-27}}</ref> As such, I'm <s>'''neutral'''</s> myself, but think that a discussion is appropriate.', 126 => '{{reftalk}}', 127 => '– [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)', 128 => ':: Pinging participants in "murder" section - {{ping|Jorge1777|Starship.paint|AzureCitizen|Ergo Sum}}. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC)', 129 => '', 130 => '{{cot|Discussion collapsed to aid readability of page}}', 131 => '===Survey===', 132 => '====First convenience section====', 133 => '* '''Oppose''' - wait for the autopsy results so that we know whether or not he was killed. [[User:Jim Michael|Jim Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim Michael|talk]]) 19:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC) ', 134 => '* <s>'''Wait for autopsy''' per above.</s> [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 20:16, 27 May 2020 (UTC)', 135 => '** <s>'''Oppose''' Due to the preliminary autopsy finding that strangulation and asphyxiation were not the cause of death, I think we must let a jury decide whether this was a killing or not. Less would be a plain BLP violation against the accused at this time. I am open to changing this if more information comes available.</s> [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC) Struck due to both reports terming this a homicide. 05:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 136 => '** '''Comment''' Because of the incredibly bad treatment of Floyd I am genuinely sorry to have to make this [[WP:BLP]] (particularly [[WP:BLPCRIME]] "presumed innocent") and [[WP:RS]], [[WP:NPOV]] ([[WP:DUE]]) policy argument, but I need to make another point.', 137 => '*:As of 22:29, 30 May 2020 (you may need to click on "tools" on Google to see the tally):', 138 => '*:*Google news search results in title over past 24 hours for "killing of george floyd": [https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22killing+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 175] (and many of these refer to protests, speaking to the intent of the protests)', 139 => '*:*Google news search results in title over past 24 hours for "death of george floyd": [https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22death+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d 1410]', 140 => '*:We go by reliable sources most of all, and here it is clear the reliable sources are cautiously calling this a death. Many of the arguments below are based on emotion and [[WP:OR]] of the video. Again I am truly sorry to have to take the position. I do not want to take it. I am forced to take this position by policy. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 22:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 141 => '*:*I understand why we go by reliable sources. But if common sense tells us that it is a killing, it is a killing no matter what reliable sources are calling it. We wouldn't say the sky is purple just because reliable sources say so. I hope this isn't inappropriate, but I would cautiously say [[WP:IAR]] supports my point. This is an encyclopedia, but it also does not simply repeat what sources say with no further examination. I believe if common sense leads us to contradict what sources are saying, that is okay. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 01:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 142 => '*::{{u|DIYeditor}}, I don't mean to badger, but CNN is reporting that the independent autopsy requested by Mr Floyd's family has found that the death was a homicide.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref>', 143 => '*::[[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 20:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 144 => '*::{{u|DIYeditor}}, since your main objection to the move is now void, with the newly published independent autopsy report, I hope you sincerely consider changing your vote. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 145 => '*:::{{u|Bubka42}} and {{u|Bellezzasolo}}, my tally of the overwhelming use of "death" in Google news articles still stands as of now, please refer to the links I gave above. I will consider again whether we should simply call a spade a spade in this case and go with "killing" but I have trouble seeing how we can ignore the cautious phrasing of the overwhelming majority of news articles on this topic (assuming my test for that is valid). [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 04:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 146 => '*:::'''Explain striking !vote''': I will go ahead and stick to what I originally said which was wait for autopsy. I have reservations about deviating from the phrasing used in most reliable sources, but {{u|Darouet}} has conflicting information, and most of all I don't want to be "that guy" who opposed calling a killing a killing. Killing someone isn't in and of itself a crime so we are not accusing anyone of having committed a crime. Two autopsies say homicide. So I am leaving this as a "comment" with no !vote. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 06:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 147 => '*'''Oppose''' Consistency, Articles about similar events are called death not murder or killing. Unless convicted or murder no need to change,[[User:Life200BC|Life200BC]] ([[User talk:Life200BC|talk]]) 20:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)', 148 => '*: This is demonstrably untrue. [[:Category:Deaths by person in the United States]] contains 212 articles with titles referring to "murder", another two referring to "killing" and a further 31 referring to "shooting" and 11 to "assassination" (which obviously aren't alleged in this case), while only 81 (including this one) refer to "death", of which many of the deaths are not killings of any sort. It is fair to question whether the burden of proof that this death was a killing has yet been met to [[WP:BLP]] standards but as soon as the cause of death is established to such standards it is absolutely consistent to refer to it as a killing in the title, if not specifying the type of killing. [[User:Bigbluefish|Bigbluefish]] ([[User talk:Bigbluefish|talk]]) 17:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 149 => '*'''Oppose for now'''. Per DIYeditor, definitively describing this as a "killing" would be premature until the medical examiner/coroner's report says so. [[User:Ergo Sum|'''<span style="color:#0645AD">Ergo Sum</span>''']] 21:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC)', 150 => '*''' Oppose '''- Death is the most neutral language, and should be used until more information is available. --[[User:Jax 0677|Jax 0677]] ([[User talk:Jax 0677|talk]]) 21:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)', 151 => '*'''Oppose'''. "Death of" is the most appropriate term, at least for the time being. If the officer is charged or convicted at a future date, we can reassess. Though it certainly seems likely that he died as a result of the officer's actions, we don't technically know what he died from until we get the full autopsy report. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 21:50, 27 May 2020 (UTC)', 152 => '*'''Support''' — "Killing of..." is commonly used by the media [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/27/us/lebron-james-george-floyd-spt-trnd/index.html][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/george-floyd-killing-minneapolis-protest-police][https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-pictures/minneapolis-george-floyd-protest-police-killing-photos-1005678/]. This isn't a proposal to rename the article to "Murder of..." and there's no controversy about why he died in a general sense, even before a pathology report is released. For this reason the name change doesn't depend on whether an officer has been charged with murder or what the specific physiological cause of death was: you can die in many ways when someone is kneeling on your neck. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 22:05, 27 May 2020 (UTC)', 153 => '::After some time has passed, I find that the case for moving is stronger than before:', 154 => '::'''[[WP:RS]]''' — The [[LexisNexis|NexisUni]] database reports over 10,000 newspaper articles in the last week describing George Floyd as having been killed (accounting for duplicates). High quality sources like the [[BBC]] and the ''[[The New York Times]]'' describe the death as a killing, e.g. BBC: {{tq|Protesters have clashed with police in cities across the US over the '''killing''' of an unarmed African-American man at the hands of officers in Minneapolis}}[https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52857334]; ''NYT'': {{tq|8 Minutes and 46 Seconds: How George Floyd Was '''Killed''' in Police Custody}} [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-investigation.html]. While thousands of sources describe Floyd as having been killed, I can find only two dubious sources arguing he may not have been [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-died-police-restraint-combined-health/][https://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/what-will-investigators-look-for-in-the-death-of-george-floyd-J7t5d8sJDN5wPQH1/]. ', 155 => '::'''[[WP:NPOVTITLE]]''' — As mentioned by many editors here, the term "death of..." is a [[WP:WEASEL]] phrase that obscures Floyd's killing, and by implying the possibility of natural death is non-neutral. As pointed out below, in the [[Oxford English Dictionary|English language]] "killing" does not imply intent to kill and is not equivalent to murder: {{tq|"...any means or cause which puts an end to life...}}" The move would therefore result in a more neutral title.', 156 => '::'''[[WP:NAMINGCRITERIA]]''' In addition to being supported by reliable sources, the title "Killing of George Floyd" meets every one of our naming criteria, including [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]], [[WP:NATURALNESS]] and [[WP:CONCISE]]. "Killing of George Floyd" is linguistically and factually more [[WP:PRECISE]] than "Death of George Floyd," and while more death articles are titled "Death of..", many death articles are titled "Killing of..." (e.g. [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], [[Killing of Naqeebullah Mehsud]], [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]], [[Killing of Peter Fechter]], [[Killing of Heidi Hazell]], etc), and thus this article if moved would be [[WP:CONSISTENT]] with practice here.', 157 => '::'''[[WP:CONSENSUS]]''' — Recognizing these principles, right now wikipedia editors support a move by a margin of nearly 2:1 (140 in support of a move, compared to 75 opposing, by my tally).', 158 => '::On the basis of descriptions by reliable sources, neutrality, article naming criteria, and consensus, I still think this page should be moved. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 159 => '*'''Oppose''' Maintain neutral language. [[User:KidAd|KidAd]] ([[User talk:KidAd|talk]]) 22:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)', 160 => '*'''Oppose''' per [[Death of Eric Garner]], a case that is ''extremely'' similar, plus [[WP:BLP]] and neutrality concerns. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 00:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 161 => '*'''Oppose''' “Killing of...” is sensationalist. “Death” will suffice per Wikipedia’s neutrality policy. [[User:Beemer69|<span style="color:black">'''sixty'''</span><span style="color:darkred">'''nine'''</span>]] [[User talk:Beemer69|<small><span style='color:darkblue;text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em black'><sup>'''• whaddya want? •'''</sup></span></small>]] 01:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 162 => '*'''Support''' Maintain factual language. "Killing of" is the common language when the individual's death is the direct result of another individual's actions, whereas "Death of" is more common for natural or accidental causes. The individual in question was killed, I don't think there is any doubt about that. "Murder of" would be prejudicial and inappropriate until such time that criminal proceedings begin/conclude.[[User:CanadianWikiUser|&#42;BrandonsLe*]] ([[User talk:CanadianWikiUser|talk]]) 01:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 163 => '*<s>'''Oppose''' – While I agree with the argument in the case of a fatal shooting, this is too much/too soon for a case such as this. We should at least wait for a finding of homicide by the medical examiner.</s> ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 02:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 164 => '**'''Support''' – Whether or not the police officer is guilty of crime, it is clear now that he caused the death, therefore killed George Floyd. "Killing of George Floyd" is <s>not</s> an appropriate title for this article. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 165 => '*** {{ping|Coffeeandcrumbs}} I think you may have typo'd — your !support and "is not an appropriate title" appear to contradict eachother 😊 — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; please &#123;&#123;[[Template:ping|ping]]&#125;&#125; me in replies)</small></span> 10:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 166 => '****Thanks, fixed. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 15:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 167 => '*'''Oppose'''. "Killing" is defined as [https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/killing an act in which someone is deliberately killed]. At this time, there is no evidence that Chauvin deliberately intended to kill Floyd. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 168 => '*:This is simply NOT true. Killing can literally be either accidental or deliberate. Murder is the specific term that precisely refers to deliberate killing. This is why the term "homicide" is so often used in early reports - because it specifies that a death was caused by another person but makes no statement on whether that death was accidental or premeditated. I support changing the article to "the killing of George Floyd," because his death WAS a homicide, full stop. Whether the killing was murder or not is what is up for debate, not whether he WAS killed. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03|2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03]] ([[User talk:2600:6c67:6e7f:f4e3:d428:6173:4ba6:ee03#top|talk]]) 01:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)</small>', 169 => '*:While I agree with your !vote, that is not a good definition of killing. If you hit someone with a car and they die, you killed them, even without intent. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/killing A simple and better definition]: 1: the act of one that kills. From [[Oxford Dictionary of English]]: an act of causing death, especially deliberately. So maybe in British English it is more considered to mean a deliberate act? ODE only says "especially deliberately" though, not exclusively. OED says only: 1. a. The action of the vb. kill, in various senses. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 02:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 170 => '*'''Oppose''' and snow close until after both autospy and any conviction. Despite the video being as close to direct support that the cops actions led to the complications to his death there may be other factors at play that the cops only made it worst but were not the cause. Even if it was determined if the cops were the direct cause of death, then it is a matter of the circumstances of the arrest that may have given reason to do what they did (very unlikely but we are wikipedia and need to stay neutral here and cannot presume guilt). So until these events happen, this must stay at "Death of..." --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 02:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 171 => '*'''Oppose, for now''' until an autopsy. I'd think it'd be biased to declare it a killing unless the autopsy clears Floyd of any possible underlying conditions, regardless of opinions on the video. [[User:Fernsong|Fernsong]] ([[User talk:Fernsong|talk]]) 04:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 172 => '*'''Oppose''' - true, the death could be classified as culpable homicide or homicide, depending on the autopsy and the policemen’s motives, but "killing" should not be added unless there is proof that the policemen intended to kill him. [[User:RedBulbBlueBlood9911|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:#00a2ff">RedBulbBlueBlood9911</span>]]&#124;[[User talk:RedBulbBlueBlood9911|'''<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:DarkBlue">Talk</span>''']] 06:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 173 => '*'''Oppose''' - Death seems more encyclopedic and neutral; killing implies culpability. [[User:Ovinus Real|Ovinus Real]] ([[User talk:Ovinus Real|talk]]) 06:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 174 => '*'''Support'''. There is absolutely no question that he was killed and that there is culpability. Millions of people have witnessed his killing, recorded in detail on video. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 07:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 175 => '*'''Support'''. Death implies that it was not caused by another person, while killing is when one person harms another. [[User:Tbrechner|Tbrechner]] ([[User talk:Tbrechner|talk]]) 07:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 176 => '*:"Death" implies nothing but that the person is deceased. There is no evidence I can find that "death" is only used for cases without outside causation. Do you have such evidence? In fact, there is a reason why terms like "natural death" and "suicide" exist to differentiate from just "death". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 177 => '*'''Oppose''' for now per WWGB. Even if that definition isn't very good, the fact remains that "killing" carries the connotation of deliberateness. However, as this is an American topic, the American definition of "killing" should be used. As such, if the (significant) majority of RS use the term "killing of George Floyd" I support changing the name in the future. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 08:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 178 => '::See my post below: contrary to your assertion, in the English language, murder implies deliberateness, but killing does not. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 179 => ':::Killing most certainly implies deliberateness and intent. Until an autopsy verifies the true cause of Floyd's death, we cannot maintain a neutral POV and at the same time insinuate cause, when we do not know the cause. [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 01:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500', 180 => '::::"Killing" does not imply intent to kill. According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'': {{tq|To put to death; to deprive of life; to slay, slaughter. In early use implying personal agency and the use of a weapon; later, '''extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an accident''', over-work, grief, drink, a disease, '''etc.'''}} -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 181 => ':::::{{u|Darouet}}, killing implies that a crime has taken place and that someone is guilty of committing the crime, whether it is manslaughter or murder, and associating that with a living person without a conviction is against [[WP:BLPCRIME]]. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 21:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 182 => ':::::No it doesn't. There are plenty of ways to kill someone without committing a crime: self-defense, war, [[justifiable homicide]]. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 02:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 183 => '::::::The issue is not criminality, but intent. If a police officer shoots someone wrongfully, they were using deadly force, which demonstrates an intent to cause death. To the best of my knowledge, the force used against Floyd was not considered deadly force (at least, insofar as it is defined by rules of polce conduct) so it is not our place to prescribe intent to kill. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 12:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 184 => ':::See WWGB's comment above. The fact that ''some'' dictionaries define "kill" as implying deliberateness means that "kill" has the connotation of deliberateness. [[User:UserDude|userdude]] 12:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 185 => '*'''Oppose'''. Death sounds more neutral. [[User:Infernape612|Infernape612]] ([[User talk:Infernape612|talk]]) 08:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 186 => '*'''Oppose:''' We are not a jury to decide whether it was a culpable offense (or not) to the point of a homicide. "Death" is by far more neutral for an encyclopedic article.--[[User:Deepak G Goswami|Deepak G Goswami]] ([[User talk:Deepak G Goswami|talk]]) 08:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 187 => '*'''Support:''' The guy was on the floor with a police officer's knee on his neck, telling them "I can't breathe" and "Don't kill me" until he passed out and died. Regardless of their intention, the police officers caused the death of this man - looks like a killing to me. --[[User:Xwejnusgozo|Xwejnusgozo]] ([[User talk:Xwejnusgozo|talk]]) 08:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 188 => '*:"Looks like to me" is not an accepted scientific method of determining causation, especially not for Wikipedia which relies on reliable sources. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 189 => '*::{{ping|SoWhy}} Dude quit being such a condescending smart-ass. You deliberately ignored his analysis and only used his conclusion as though that was the only thing he said without backing up why he concludes that. He clearly stated REASONS before concluding "Looks like a killing to me". Do you not know how conslunsions work? First you state reasons then you conclude by saying what your analysis shows. [[Special:Contributions/94.175.64.92|94.175.64.92]] ([[User talk:94.175.64.92|talk]]) 20:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 190 => '*:::There is nothing condescending about it. Analyzing a primary source and reaching your own conclusion - valid or otherwise! - is what we call [[WP:OR|original research]]. This core policy explicitly states that {{xt|Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation}}. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 21:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 191 => '*::{{ping|SoWhy}} Regardless of the wording I used, it should be blindingly obvious to everyone who saw the video: the man did not just ''die'', he died as a result of the actions of the police officers, ie. they ''killed'' him. --[[User:Xwejnusgozo|Xwejnusgozo]] ([[User talk:Xwejnusgozo|talk]]) 12:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 192 => '*:::Many reliable sources conclude the very same, describing Floyd's death as a "killing." -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 193 => '*::::{{re|Darouet}} But the vast majority does not, which is also reflected in the article, which at this time contains 3 sources that use the word "killing" but 45(!) sources (if I did count right) that use the word "death". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 06:00, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 194 => '*'''Strong Support''' In my opinion saying it was a Death violates [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Killing is deffonatly more appropriate and [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 09:16, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 195 => '*'''Oppose''' per precedent ([[Death of Eric Garner]]) and reasons given above. If and when someone is convicted for causing this death - and reliable sources start using another word(!) - we can reconsider. At this point, none of the sources in the article use "killing" (at least in the title) and most sources I can find go with "Death" (e.g. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/demonstrators-rally-over-death-of-george-floyd-who-died-in-police-custody/2020/05/26/fb67a961-aed3-4173-bdd8-7b230abb105a_video.html] [https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-death-of-george-floyd-in-context] [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/gallery/2020/may/27/protests-in-minneapolis-over-death-of-george-floyd-after-arrest-in-pictures] [https://www.npr.org/2020/05/27/863422803/how-minneapolis-communities-react-to-george-floyds-death?t=1590661206106] [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/us/george-floyd-minneapolis-death.html]). Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 196 => '*:Reaffirming my opposition. Unless the victim was shot (in which case "Shooting of" is used), ''basically all'' comparable articles (see for example the list in {{tlx|Black Lives Matter}}) use "Death of" ''until the perpetrator has been convicted'' (or found guilty but not criminally responsible).{{pb}}Only when there is a conviction the title is or is changed to "Murder of" or "Killing of" (e.g. [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Ilan Halimi]], [[Killing of Tim McLean]], [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shooting_of_Jordan_Edwards&oldid=892563238]).{{pb}}This is imho in line with [[WP:BLPCRIME]] which explicitly says {{xt| For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction. }} Neither an autopsy report nor a 3rd degree murder charge satisfy these requirements. When it comes to BLPs, we should err on the side of caution, even if they are credibly accused of killing another person.{{pb}}And last but not least, Wikipedia is a tertiary source. We should go by the terminology reliable secondary sources use. If one searches GNews for sources that do ''not'' mention "killing", one gets [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+-%22killing%22 ~192 million hits]. Searching for sources that do mention "killing", one gets [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+%22killing%22 ~104 million hits], i.e. only half as many (also considering that some are only using "killing" in quotes). If the usage is apparently 2 to 1 against "Killing" in news sources, we should go with the majority. Even after the autopsy was released, the apparent majority of such sources still refer to it as the "death" of George Floyd (e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52886593 BBC], [https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html CNN], [https://indianexpress.com/article/world/family-autopsy-floyd-asphyxiated-by-sustained-pressure-6438843/ The Indian Express], [https://news.sky.com/story/live-protests-continue-across-us-following-death-of-george-floyd-11998933 Sky News], [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/california-george-floyd-protests.html NYT], [https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-protests-george-floyd-laquan-mcdonald-police-deaths-20200602-rois6ifmpbh2nm4wt5vrhcvyrm-story.html Chicago Tribune], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-floyds-death-was-a-homicide-according-to-two-autopsies/2020/06/01/1d5b313a-a43b-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html WaPo]). {{pb}}Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 10:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 197 => '*{{Strikeout|'''Oppose''' per SoWhy above [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 10:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)}}', 198 => ':*Now changing to '''Strong Support''' - clear killing now as more details come out, as well as the 3rd degree murder charge [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 19:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 199 => '*'''Strong Support''' Floyd was brutally murdered in front of a crowd of horrified bystanders as he begged for mercy, resulting in the firing of those four officers, international outrage and violent protests and demonstrations all over Minneapolis. This wasn't some accidental sudden "death", it was a literal ''killing''. [[User:PlanetDeadwing|PlanetDeadwing]] ([[User talk:PlanetDeadwing|talk]]) 10:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 200 => '*:We don't have the autopsy results & no-one's been charged. It would be inappropriate to say at this stage that he was killed, let alone murdered. We don't want to prejudice any criminal proceedings. [[User:Jim Michael|Jim Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim Michael|talk]]) 11:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 201 => '*'''Oppose''' While Floyd was definitely killed, Wikipedia precedent is that the title is 'Death of' rather than 'Killing of' or any similar title. While this was a killing, this is a vote purely on precedent. [[User:AlternateHistoryGuy|AlternateHistoryGuy]] ([[User talk:AlternateHistoryGuy|talk]])', 202 => '<s>*'''Snow Support''' Hundreds of sources are calling it a killing, including [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/27/george-floyd-sister-police-officers-should-be-charged-with-murder in the title]. I see no merit in the precedent argument. An accidental death caused by a choke on someone who wouldn't let themselves be cuffed has no relation to officers killing a cuffed person who on all available videos didn't resist, merely begged for his life & pleaded for his mommy. They mocked him while he was dying. Even the Donald has said justice is going to be served on those guys. Presenting a topic in a way that's considerably less accurate & compassionate than president Trump does is a little disconcerting. He didn't just die, he was killed, current title is almost "fake news". [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 12:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 203 => '::Upgrading to Snow support per the murder charge, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:Weight & WP BLP. (BLP per due respect to the victims family, & also as comparing this to an accidental death where the suspect wouldn't let himself be cuffed appears almost borderline defamation to the x cop involved.) [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 19:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC) </s> Per [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSm0Nuqomg&t=55 new evidence] my rationale is no longer entirely correct, so striking vote. [[User:FeydHuxtable|FeydHuxtable]] ([[User talk:FeydHuxtable|talk]]) 09:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 204 => '*'''Oppose'''. Articles like this go through a name change progression as events unfold in due course, i.e., an autopsy is released that establishes the official cause of death, potential arrests are made, and a possible trial and conviction for murder. Logical RM discussions based on reason can proceed from an informed standpoint as each milestone is reached, with potential titles like "Killing of..." and "Murder of..." etc. But until then, we should follow our usual process of waiting for the right preconditions for RS, BLP, and NPOV policy reasons. Arguments from emotion and compassion may be noble sentiments and "feel right" to some editors, but they are not based in logic. As unsatisfying as it is, patience is required for us to get the article title right at the right time. Regards, [[User:AzureCitizen|AzureCitizen]] ([[User talk:AzureCitizen|talk]]) 12:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 205 => '*'''Strong support''' George Floyd was killed, this was caught unambiguously on video, and numerous outlets have described it as a "killing". "Murder of" would be an entirely separate story, because it would be inappropriate until the officer(s) are charged and convicted, but "Killing of" is clearly appropriate, in the same way that the title "[[Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery]]" is appropriate. <b>[[User:TheTechnician27|<span style="color: #00a9ff"><i>TheTechnician27</i></span>]]</b> [[User talk:TheTechnician27|<span style="color: blue">(Talk page)</span>]] 12:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 206 => '*'''Oppose''' It's too early for this. Once we get the autopsy and charges/convictions, I think it will be appropriate to move it, but not right now. [[WP:BLP]] definitely applies here as well. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 13:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 207 => '*:Reaffirming my opposition in light of the charges. [[WP:BLPCRIME]] is a policy that must be considered. {{!xt|For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in '''any''' article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.}} As hard as it may be for some people to realize, the officers are living individuals and are innocent until proven guilty. Wikipedia is not a court of law nor is it a platform for righting great wrongs. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 21:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 208 => '*'''Support''' US English speakers need to be very careful to maintain neutrality, which means political neutrality in this case. If you don't know what that means, or have doubts, then step aside please. Also, it is a great time to look at the international coverage in cases like this. The UK Guardian uses killing https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/27/george-floyd-sister-police-officers-should-be-charged-with-murder. It seems very simple: there was a killer and there was the killed, this death was not caused by unknown or other circumstances. [[User:Hesperian Nguyen|Hesperian Nguyen]] ([[User talk:Hesperian Nguyen|talk]]) 13:09, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 209 => '*'''Oppose'''. Conservative, minimal assertions are best concerning the title of the article. We should not be aiming for a maximally inflammatory title. The title of an article doesn't aim for maximum sensationalism. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 13:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 210 => '*'''Strongly support'''. The current title just makes Wikipedia sound mealymouthed to me. Rather than looking for precedent in the title "Death of Eric Garner" (perhaps overly cautious even in that case), our comparison ought to be with [[Death of Alan Kurdi]]. The death in question here was certainly caused: causing death is killing. [[User:Ph7five|- phi]] ([[User talk:Ph7five|talk]]) 13:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 211 => '*'''Strong support'''. I think that 'killing' is perfectly neutral because that's precisely what it was. Murder is not appropriate yet, and might not be even if the perpetrator in question is found guilty, but killing implies a clear causal relationship in this case that Wikipedia should recognise. 'Death' is too transactional and considering the video footage and aftermath, wouldn't do justice as to WHY this incident has notoriety in the first place. [[User:LeoC12|LeoC12]] ([[User talk:LeoC12|talk]]) 13:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 212 => '*'''Strongly support'''. I agree the current article title sounds mealymouthed. A killing is what occurred-- "killing" is a distinct term from "murder"-- and thus the article title should be changed to reflect this occurrence, just like the "[[Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery]]" affirms that particular event as a shooting. Furthermore, I fail to see how calling it a killing influences thought versus accurately describing what happened. I will feel even more strongly about this when the autopsy inevitably confirms the cause of death. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f]] ([[User talk:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|contribs]]) </small> <small>— [[Special:Contributions/2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f]] ([[User talk:2604:6000:9f44:c600:e15d:727c:9243:b05f|talk]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small> [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 18:47, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 213 => '*'''Reluctant support'''- ideally we'd just move it to [[Murder of George Floyd]] immediately, but the section above suggests that that wouldn't be possible without a change to BLP, so "killing" is the next-best alternative. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans">[[User:Chessrat|<span style="color:#C90">Chessrat</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Chessrat|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]], [[Special:Contribs/Chessrat|<span style="color:#f78">contributions</span>]]) </sup></span> 14:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 214 => '*'''Support''' as it is clear this person was killed, and backed by reliable sources, death just implies that it wasn't done by a person (i.e it happened due to an illness, etc., not the case). I hold the opinion that we'll eventually move this to [[Murder of George Floyd]], but of course it's too early to do this until an investigation is done. [[User:GoodCrossing|GoodCrossing]] ([[User talk:GoodCrossing|talk]]) 15:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 215 => '*'''Support''' as the video had clearly shown everything needed, fulfilling the chronology of his death per the previous requests of multiple users here. However, I must say that "killing" is too much of a sensationalized term for me. In replacement for a more neutral-sounding title, I'd opt for a "Murder of____" heading instead of the current suggestion [[User:Azurevanilla ash|Azurevanilla ash]] ([[User talk:Azurevanilla ash|talk]]) 15:23, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 216 => '*'''Oppose''' at this time. Key words highlighted for emphasis. Until the report comes out, despite with the media is hyping it up to be, it could be anything from murder to alcohol poisoning, drug abuse/overdose, or a stroke/heart attack. [[Special:Contributions/172.101.5.82|172.101.5.82]] ([[User talk:172.101.5.82|talk]]) 15:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 217 => '*: According to police, Floyd was in a nearby car and "{{Highlight|appeared to be under the influence}}". A spokesman for the police department said the officers ordered him to exit the vehicle, at which point he "physically resisted".', 218 => '*: According to the Minneapolis police, officers "were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he {{Highlight|appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance.}}" <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/172.101.5.82|172.101.5.82]] ([[User talk:172.101.5.82#top|talk]]) 15:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)</small>', 219 => '*::That's what the police claimed before video evidence came out... which media universally acknowledge directly contradicted police statements. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 17:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 220 => '*<del>Oppose for now</del> - We need to wait for the majority of RSes to refer to it as a "killing" before we can. If the medical examiner rules this as a homicide, the RSes will likely start using "killing" instead of "death", at which point we should change the title, but until then, we should continue to follow the sources and use "death". It seems we go through this every time there is a new article about a suspected murder, and I wish experienced editors would take on board that we waste our resources when we make premature move requests or have lengthy arguments like this, especially in the first few days. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 16:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 221 => '**I'm going to be a real outlier here: it's now a murder case called ''State v. Derek Chauvin'' [http://mncourts.gov/media/StateofMinnesotavDerekChauvin.aspx]. "The death of George Floyd" is the murder alleged in State v. Derek Chauvin. Because this is an encyclopedia, I think articles about notable murder cases should be named after the murder case, and not "murder of [victim's name]" or "killing of [victim's name]". So, I'd '''support a move to [[State v. Derek Chauvin]]'''. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 04:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 222 => '::*{{u|Levivich}}, what about [[WP:COMMONNAME]]? "Oppose for now" makes sense to me I think<s>, isn't "death" what most sources use at the moment?</s> [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 19:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC) <small>[[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 20:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)</small>', 223 => '*'''Oppose''' due to the lack of information. [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 17:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 224 => '*'''Strong oppose''' until we have confirmation. [[User:Spengouli|Spengouli]] ([[User talk:Spengouli|talk]]) 17:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 225 => '*'''Strong support''' killing or murder, as the event in question is his murder, the act of killing him, not his death. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 17:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 226 => '*:{{u|Ɱ}}, do you have access to an autopsy report that the rest of us don't? While it is very likely that the pressure on his neck killed him, there is no way to be certain until that report comes out. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 20:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 227 => '*::[[WP:BLUESKY]], the video is sufficient proof-saying he couldn't breathe before dying. It's public knowledge, not disputed by any credible sources. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 03:11, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 228 => '*:::[[Correlation does not imply causation]]. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 05:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 229 => '*::::Your failure to accept indisputable evidence, a video recording of his murder, shocks me. When Trump finally is recorded shooting someone on Fifth Avenue, I'll remember not to list him as a murderer until he's convicted. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 06:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 230 => '*:::::It's not a failure to accept evidence to point out that two events happening at the same time does not mean that one caused the other. And yes, per [[WP:BLPCRIME]] you would indeed be incorrect to list Trump as a murderer in this hypothetical scenario. I understand the general sentiment behind this request and I truly sympathize but we cannot forget that even those police officers involved are relatively unknown living people for whom our policies require a presumption of innocence "unless a conviction has been secured" (per [[WP:BLPCRIME]]). I have not seen any argument so far as to why this core policy should be ignored in this case. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 231 => ':::::: Saying Floyd was killed isn't accusing anyone of a crime. There are loads of legal scenarios in which someone can kill someone without committing a crime. Calling this article the "murder of" would be accusing someone of a Crime, and then I'd agree we have to wait until a conviction happens. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 15:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 232 => '*'''Strong support''' - Normally I would be neutral on this but there's clear cut evidence on video. That means that I'm supporting it. [[User:Jdcomix|Jdcomix]] ([[User talk:Jdcomix|talk]]) 18:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 233 => '*'''Support''' - the video is enough evidence and was published, the fact is of public knowledge The article is about the killing, not the death as mentioned before [[User:HM7Me|HM7Me]] ([[User talk:HM7Me|talk]]) 18:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 234 => '*:See [[WP:OR]] - basing an article title on your own personal interpretation of a video is not acceptable. Cheers, [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 18:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 235 => '*::As I pointed out in my comment above, many reliable sources are describing Floyd's death as a killing, so such a label does not rely upon OR. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 19:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 236 => '*'''Oppose for now''' the death looks like a murder. But I will wait until we have all of the facts about the death. There may be some mitigating factor as of yet unknown. [[WP:NORUSH]] probably applies to this. We can always change it later. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 19:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 237 => '*:This proposal is to change the name to "Killing," not "Murder," which is something entirely different. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 19:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 238 => '*::{{ping|Darouet}} That is a [[Distinction without a difference|distinction without a difference]] [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 02:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 239 => '*:::{{ping|Lightburst}} No it's not. A killing means that someone was killed by the actions of someone else. A murder is when they are legally responsible for that killing. Some killings are not murder, most obviously self-defense --[[User:Gimmethegepgun|Gimmethegepgun]] ([[User talk:Gimmethegepgun|talk]]) 05:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 240 => '*::::{{ping|Gimmethegepgun}} Meh. Obviously there is not support for the change at this point. Maybe later. Until then this is a pedestrian argument and it is just quibbling over semantics. "Death" is appropriate until we have more information. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 14:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 241 => '*'''Weak support''' - While it is somewhat premature to call it an act of murder, the general consensus right now is that it is a murder. Unless a source comes out and proves the contrary, I think it is safe to assume that the currently provided evidence is correct. [[User:KevTYD|KevTYD]] <small>([[User talk:KevTYD|wake up]])</small> 20:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 242 => '*'''Support''' - The discussion is not about whether he was murdered, as the motives of the officers are unknown so far. However, I believe it is clear from the evidence provided that Floyd's death was purposeful on the part of the officers, and that evidence suggesting he died of other causes is shaky at best. --[[User:Lugnutlarry|Lugnutlarry]] ([[User talk:Lugnutlarry|talk]]) 20:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 243 => '*'''Strong support''' - Per {{u|Darouet}}'s reasoning in discussion below, arguments opposed have little basis. Further, agree with {{u|RealFakeKim}} above: Saying we need to wait for law enforcement charges saying it was a Death violates [[WP:WEIGHT]] and "killing" is more common and therefore better for Wikipedia per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. —[[User:Shrinkydinks|Shrinkydinks]] ([[User talk:Shrinkydinks|talk]]) 20:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 244 => '*'''Strong Oppose''' - Killing implies the article is about a very small subcategory of death--the action of killing. If the article is about the ''killing'', how can we justify putting the protests, lawsuits, etc. in this article? Death, on the other hand, is an all-encompassing title for this topic. Protests are related to the death. (Nobody can protest against the ''killing'' which has already been done). Lawsuits are related to the death. Similar articles also start with ''Death''. For example, the [[Death of Osama Bin Laden]], not the killing of. [[User:Sherwilliam|Sherwilliam]] ([[User talk:Sherwilliam|talk]]) 20:52, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 245 => '*:Really? Please see [[Killing of Harambe]], [[Killing of Cecil the lion]], [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], and [[Killing of Nicole van den Hurk]]. All of those articles cover protests, lawsuits, and the overall impact. Some even devote a majority of the text to it. There is a precedent. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 23:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 246 => '*'''Strong Support''' - If we want to get technical / semantic, Floyd's death "ocurred" as a direct result of the actions of Officer Derek Chauvin. "Death" implies lack of a living agent whereas "killing" explicitly identifies one. The evidence as currently presented show no doubt as to the fact that Chauvin killed Floyd. [[User:TheGreatClockwyrm|TheGreatClockwyrm]] ([[User talk:TheGreatClockwyrm|talk]]) 21:57, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 247 => '*'''Strong Support''' - Video footage and multiple sources all corroborate that it was a killing. As mentioned above, leaving it as death likely violates [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Furthermore, kill is defined as to 'cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing)' - exactly what occurred here. Similar articles are also titled as 'Killing of' so it would be consistent. <span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#37364a">[[User:WBPchur|<span style="color:#FFF">'''WBPchur'''</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:WBPchur|💬]]●[[Special:Contributions/WBPchur|✒️]]●[[User:WBPchur/UB|💛]]</sup> 22:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC).', 248 => '*'''Strong Support''' - Editors such as myself are not arguing on emotion, I am arguing on the merit of the sources that describe it as a killing, and as stated above [[WP:WEIGHT]] is in violation. [[User:VF01|VF01]] ([[User talk:VF01|talk]]) 22:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 249 => '*'''Oppose''' for now. 'Death' seems to be used in similar articles earlier. Seems sufficient for encyclopedic purposes. --[[User:Thi|Thi]] ([[User talk:Thi|talk]]) 22:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 250 => '*'''Strong support''' - Just to be clear, to those of you who are arguing we should contravene reliable sources and call this a "death" until the ME report: are you genuinely concerned about the possibility that Floyd may have died of natural causes while his neck was under an officer's knee for seven minutes, and while he stated that he couldn't breathe and that they were killing him? When someone dies in a shooting, do we usually wait for the ME report to describe the incident as a killing, just to rule out the possibility that the victim may have died of a naturally-occurring heart attack in the split seconds before the bullet impacted? We should follow the reliable sources. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 22:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 251 => '*:Yes, we should follow the reliable sources. However, they overwhelmingly use the word "death" instead of "killing". Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 252 => '*'''Oppose''' per everyone voted "oppose". [[Special:Contributions/2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52|2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52]] ([[User talk:2001:569:74D2:A800:8989:60D4:7D6E:9E52|talk]]) 22:25, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 253 => '*'''Oppose''' The [[death of Eric Garner]] and other extremely similar cases use "death of" due to the neutrality of the statement per [[WP:NPOV]]. [[User:Haydenaa|Haydenaa]] ([[User talk:Haydenaa|talk]]) 22:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 254 => '*'''Support''' killing refers to the death of someone caused by someone else, not necessarily a murder. This is obviously the case here. [[User:Dark-World25|Dark-World25]] ([[User talk:Dark-World25|talk]]) 23:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 255 => '* '''Strong support''', changing to "Killing of" is not suggesting a murder, but a death caused by another person. This is both factually accurate and backed by sources which refer to this as a killing. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 23:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 256 => '*'''Strong support''' per RealFakeKim. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 23:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 257 => '*'''Strong support'''Occam's Razor means we must assume the strangulation was a reason for his death, not any other cause for which there is so far no evidence (or even indication). Also for what it's worth, 'Killing of' does not violate [[WP:NPOV]]. [[User:Devgirl|Devgirl]] ([[User talk:Devgirl|talk]]) 00:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 258 => '*'''Support''', as this was objectively a killing. The video evidence is right there. "Death" implies a random event without any causal relationship. 00:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nmurali02|Nmurali02]] ([[User talk:Nmurali02#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nmurali02|contribs]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->', 259 => '*'''Oppose''' per {{u|haydenna}}. Conformity to [[Death of Eric Garner]] [[Death of JonBenét Ramsey]] [[Death of Breonna Taylor]] etc. Only exceptions are seemingly assassinations &/ animals. That and [[WP:NPOV]] due to it not being an inherent intentional killing. — <span style="text-shadow:red 0em 0em 0.8em">[[user:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:red">IVORK</b>]]</span> <sub>[[User talk:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:Green; font-size:x-small">Talk</b>]]</sub> 01:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 260 => '*: I would like to point out that the latter article is currently in the process of undergoing a proposal for a page move to [[Shooting of Breonna Taylor]] instead, so it should probably not be cited as firm precedent pending the results of that move discussion. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 261 => '*:::"Killing" does not imply intent. According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary|OED]]'', the modern definition is {{tq|extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an '''accident''', over-work, grief, drink, a disease, '''etc.'''}} -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 262 => '*:*'''Note''' Humans are animals too. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 02:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 263 => '*'''Strong Support''' Our quest for neutrality should not blind us; we can see, on video, an act that led to Floyd's death. Labeling it a killing is no less encyclopedic than labeling [[murder of Tupac Shakur|Tupac Shakur's death a murder]]. If anything, calling it simply a "death" is misleading - "killing" makes it clear that their was another human involved, which objectively, there was - no matter the "cause" of death, he would be alive if he had never interacted with the police officer. Furthermore I would assert that [[death of Eric Garner]] should also be moved to killing, for same reasons. [[User:Thornsie|Thornsie]] ([[User talk:Thornsie|talk]]) 01:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 264 => '*'''Oppose'''. Would be a break from precedent, and implies a certain level of culpability (if not strictly semantically). — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 02:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 265 => '*''' Oppose ''' Death is the most neutral language.[[User:Pharaoh of the Wizards|Pharaoh of the Wizards]] ([[User talk:Pharaoh of the Wizards|talk]]) 02:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 266 => '*''' Strong Support''' George Floyd was killed, which generated an abundance of reliable media coverage speaking to that fact. The publicity surrounding him is not merely about the fact that he 'died', it is specifically about the fact that he was killed, the manner he was killed, and whom he was killed by. It is the killing of George Floyd that infers notability, not the death of George Floyd. The article title should reflect that. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 267 => '*'''Support''', since the process by which Floyd died, not the death itself, is the main topic of the article, and it's pretty much crystal clear that Floyd was, in fact, murdered. --[[User:letcreate123|<b style= "color:black">letcreate123</b>]] <small>([[User talk:letcreate123|<i style= "color:green">talk</i>]])</small> 02:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 268 => '**My vote is only further enforced by the fact that it's been confirmed recently that Floyd's death was a homicide, thus, he was killed. Coverage on that matter is already available so it's very easy to verify. --[[User:letcreate123|<b style= "color:black">letcreate123</b>]] <small>([[User talk:letcreate123|<i style= "color:green">talk</i>]])</small> 00:38, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 269 => '* '''Support''' - the way that George Floyd died, not just the fact that he died, is the subject of this article. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] ([[User talk:Guettarda|talk]]) 03:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 270 => '*'''Oppose for now''' We should wait for autopsy or a judicial ruling before changing it, as *officially* there is no ruling yet and we really should wait for confirmation [[User:Jspace727|Jspace727]] ([[User talk:Jspace727|talk]]) 03:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 271 => '* '''Oppose''' As mentioned many times, "death" is the most neutral language right now. Articles will go through name changes down the line anyways, so we should definitely have this discussion again after an autopsy or pathology report. [[User:LittleWhole|LittleWhole]] ([[User talk:LittleWhole|talk]]) 03:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 272 => '*'''Support''': Whether or not you believe his death was fair or not, his life was taken by another human, therefore it was killing. There is no debate. He was killed, that's a fact, he's deceased because of another person. Accept it. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/32.213.160.30|32.213.160.30]] ([[User talk:32.213.160.30#top|talk]]) 03:55, 29 May 2020 (UTC)</small>‎', 273 => '* '''Support''' The main topic is that he was killed. There is strong support for this view. [[User:Wiki5537821|Wiki5537821]] ([[User talk:Wiki5537821|talk]]) 04:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 274 => '* '''Support''' George Floyd's murder is on video and is even right there in the first picture in the article. Although I'd prefer calling it a Murder, calling it a Killing seems far more unambiguous than calling it a Death (which implies he died from natural causes). [[User:Westindiaman|Westindiaman]] ([[User talk:Westindiaman|talk]]) 04:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 275 => '*:I may personally agree that the officer kneeling on his neck appeared to kill him. However, neither you nor I are pathologists, medical examiners, or coroners and we have not examined the deceased to determine cause of death. To my knowledge this has not been done yet. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 04:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 276 => '* '''Oppose''' primarily on precedent for similar deaths. May need to be decided on a wider scope, but "Death of" is common to many similar deaths without compromising their accuracy or neutrality. [[User:StuartH|StuartH]] ([[User talk:StuartH|talk]]) 04:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 277 => '* '''Support''' it doesn't seem disputed that his death was brought on by the police officer's actions, whether the officer intended to kill him or not. It is not likely he would have died otherwise. So "murder" would be too far, as it implies intent, but "killing" does seem appropriate and a neutral statement of fact. [[User:Paradoxsociety|<font face ="arial black" color="#001A99">Paradox</font>]][[User talk:Paradoxsociety|<font face="arial black" color="#006699">society</font>]] 04:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 278 => '*'''Oppose''' breaks precedent and decreases article navigability [[User:Chetsford|Chetsford]] ([[User talk:Chetsford|talk]]) 05:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 279 => '* '''Strong Oppose''' As per above statements in that it would break precedent, be highly against NPOV, and would allow media sensationalism to dictate articles that are supposed to be objective. --[[User:Therexbanner|Therexbanner]] ([[User talk:Therexbanner|talk]]) 05:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 280 => '*'''Support''' The fact that this man was killed by another person is supported by reliable primary and secondary sources. Either title is fine to me though as both are accurate. [[User:Gamebuster|Gamebuster]] [[User talk:Gamebuster|(Talk)]]║[[Special:Contributions/Gamebuster|Contributions)]] 05:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 281 => '*'''Support''' Or even change to Murder of George Floyd. ——[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 05:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 282 => '*'''Oppose''' Killing may not be as premeditaded as murder, but I wouldn't be surprised if the legal accusaion would be manslaughter. [[User:Alandeus|Alandeus]] ([[User talk:Alandeus|talk]]) 07:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 283 => '*'''Strong Oppose''' There is no reason to change the title of the article when it is serving its intended purpose. [[User:CatcherStorm|<b><i><span style="text-shadow:3px 3px 4px darkgray;"><span style="color:#0000A0">CatcherStorm</span></span></i></b>]] [[User talk:CatcherStorm|<sup><i><span style="color:#2C3539">talk</span></i></sup>]] 06:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 284 => '*'''Oppose''' An extremely similar article is titled [[Death of Eric Garner]], therefore precedent has already been set.--[[User:Chimino|Chimino]] ([[User talk:Chimino|talk]]) 07:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 285 => '*'''Oppose''' need to wait for a conviction [[User:Yodabyte|Yodabyte]] ([[User talk:Yodabyte|talk]]) 07:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 286 => '*'''SNOW Close and Oppose'''. Wikipedia is a [[WP:NPOV|neutral encyclopedia]]. Wikipedia is [[WP:CRYSTAL|not a crystal ball]], and cannot make decisions on a fact of a matter that has clearly not been determined yet. The word "killing" denotes intent. That has not yet been proven in a court of law, and therefore must not be concluded as such in the article title currently. While I sympathize with the plight of those championing a cause for justice for the article subject and working against police violence, per [[WP:NPOV]], Wikipedia is also [[WP:ADVOCACY|not a platform for advocacy]], [[WP:ACTIVIST|activist movements]] or [[WP:NOBLE|personal struggles]]. "Death" is a more neutral while factual term to describe the event for the time being. [[User:Optakeover|<span style="color:#ffffff; background:#3e007e">Optakeover</span>]]<sup>[[User:Optakeover|(U)]][[User talk:Optakeover|(T)]][[Special:contributions/Optakeover|(C)]]</sup> 07:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 287 => '*: {{re|Optakeover}} my understanding of SNOW is that it's for when something definitely won't pass. By my count the votes are currently tied on oppose/support, so I don't see how SNOW can possibly apply. There's a good chance it will pass, or that it will be tied, there is no reason I can think of to say this will definitely end on oppose. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 11:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 288 => '*::{{ping|JustLucas}} Who are you to say? What if consensus is for SNOW close? Think about the hypothetical situation. In any case, my reason is based on policy. And that is my point. [[User:Optakeover|<span style="color:#ffffff; background:#3e007e">Optakeover</span>]]<sup>[[User:Optakeover|(U)]][[User talk:Optakeover|(T)]][[Special:contributions/Optakeover|(C)]]</sup> 11:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 289 => '*:::{{u|Optakeover}}, this isn't a [[WP:SNOW]] situation imo [[User:Ed6767|Ed6767]] ([[User talk:Ed6767|talk]]) 12:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 290 => '*::::We rely upon dictionaries to agree upon the meaning of words. According to the OED, the modern definition of killing does not imply intent, and can include "any means" of causing someone to die, including accident. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 291 => '*::::If you don't know what [[WP:SNOW]] means, please don't call for a snow close. Clearly not a snowball's chance in hell of this being a snow close. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:10, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 292 => '*'''Support''' As per GorillaWarfare. The officer caused George's death, which is killing. [[User:Cthulhu Inc|Cthulhu Inc]] ([[User talk:Cthulhu Inc|talk]]) 08:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 293 => '*'''Oppose for now''' There is simply no need at this moment to draw an inference as to his cause of death when it will likely be conclusive and readily sourced. Without question, he died and that is a completely accurate title. However, that he was killed creates an impression that an intentional act is what killed him. It looks like the kneeling on the neck is related to the cause of death but that can't be known until there is an autopsy and report issued.[[User:Tridacninae|Tridacninae]] ([[User talk:Tridacninae|talk]]) 08:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC) ', 294 => '*'''Oppose for now''' per [[WP:CRYSTAL]]. We have yet to get a coroner's ruling. We all saw something horrible and while it's extremely likely it will be ruled a homicide, there's always the possiblity of ''something'' else we cannot see. I'll be very suprised if that's the case but there is [[WP:NORUSH]]. The title is descriptive of the event. That something looks "obviously" like X still isn't X until it's official. Thinking about it that may be why the four ex-officers haven't been arrested yet. They don't know what the charge will be yet. Bad idea given the last couple of days in the city. They could have always upgraded the charges.[[User:ZarhanFastfire|ZarhanFastfire]] ([[User talk:ZarhanFastfire|talk]]) 08:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 295 => '*'''Support''' based on sources, for instance Reuters titles "[https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-usa-congress/house-democrats-demand-probes-of-police-killings-of-black-americans-idUKKBN2343LR?il=0 police killings of black Americans]". Inventing our own standards for the usage of the word "killing", such as the presence or lack of a "coroner's ruling" as requested by the comment above, is forbidden by the policy [[Wikipedia:No original research]]. Every !vote above which doesn't rely on sources should be discounted. [[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 296 => '*'''Support''' given that Wikipedia is a [[WP:NPOV|neutral encyclopedia]]. Multiple tertiary sources use "killing", including the Guardian's artcle "[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/george-floyd-killing-officers-derek-chauvin-tou-thao-investigated George Floyd Killing]" and the German DW article "[https://www.dw.com/en/un-condemns-us-police-killing-of-george-floyd/a-53608812 UN condemns US police killing of George Floyd]". Sources that do not use this terminology tend to be closer to the event and more likely not to be trustworthy. [[User:Althunyon|Althunyon]] ([[User talk:Althunyon|talk]]) 09:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 297 => '*'''Strong Support''' Wide variety of RS indicate that it was a killing, because the video indicates that it was a killing, because it was a killing. I'm not sure what more else one needs. We must follow the sources. [[User:Symphony Regalia|Symphony Regalia]] ([[User talk:Symphony Regalia|talk]]) 09:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 298 => '*'''Strong Support''' It is already the general understanding that this was a killing, there is not reason not to reflect that in the name of the article. --[[User:Ratherous|Ratherous]] ([[User talk:Ratherous|talk]]) 09:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 299 => '*'''Strong Support''' Plenty of sources talk about killing, and it's pretty clear from all available evidence that the officer caused Floyd's death. [[User:BeŻet|BeŻet]] ([[User talk:BeŻet|talk]]) 10:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 300 => '*'''Oppose''' Per the name of the article of [[Death of Eric Garner]] a similar case <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:1.Ayana|1.Ayana]] ([[User talk:1.Ayana#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/1.Ayana|contribs]]) 11:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)</small>', 301 => '*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:NPOV]] and convention ([[Death of Eric Garner]]) [[Special:Contributions/39.57.145.208|39.57.145.208]] ([[User talk:39.57.145.208|talk]]) 11:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 302 => '*'''Support''' – "Killing" is a more adequate term since someone caused the death, "Death" could also mean an accident. [[User:Ca1ek|Ca1ek]] ([[User talk:Ca1ek|talk]]) 12:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 303 => '*'''Support''': This is not a death, it is a clear murder, according to maximum news sources. So It should be moved to [[Killing of George Floyd]] [[User:TheChunky|<font color="orange">The Chunky</font>]] ([[User talk:TheChunky|<font color="green">speak</font>]])12:57, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 304 => '*'''Support''' Killing is what happened he did not die of natural causes (well without help), and as for other stuff, A: that is not valid and B: That is just an argument to rename any other pages, not to not rename this one.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 13:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 305 => '*'''Support''' "Killing" is accurate and how it is described in reliable sources, it's not for us to decide. As for the BLP issues, nobody's saying to call it "Murder of George Floyd" which would be (for now anyway) a BLP issue. Even if the use of lethal force were found to be justified, it would still be an accurate statement to say he was killed. [[User:Smartyllama|Smartyllama]] ([[User talk:Smartyllama|talk]]) 13:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 306 => '*'''Support''' It's not newsworthy that a man died in Minneapolis. It's newsworthy that a man was killed. For comparison with a case where the victim survived, we refer to the Rodney King ''[[Rodney_King#Beating|Beating]]'' not to "the wounds of Rodney King". [[User:Arided|Arided]] ([[User talk:Arided|talk]]) 14:18, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 307 => '*'''Oppose''' as RSs continue to use "death" over "killing" including: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52845796], [https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-thursday/index.html], [https://news.sky.com/story/george-floyd-death-minneapolis-police-station-set-on-fire-during-protests-as-trump-attacks-thugs-11996574], [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/us/knee-neck-george-floyd-death.html], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/concern-anger-george-floyds-death-spread-around-country/], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/29/george-floyd-minneapolis-protests-live-updates//], [https://www.foxnews.com/media/laura-ingraham-minneapolis-riots-george-floyd-death], [https://www.foxnews.com/media/trey-gowdy-george-floyd-death-national-conversation], [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/05/28/george-floyd-foxs-sean-hannity-criticizes-minneapolis-police/5281078002/], [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499923-george-floyd-showed-no-signs-of-life-by-the-time-first-responders] so it is the [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. There are also other reasons stated above including adhering to the BLP and Neutrality policy as well as waiting for more infomation like an autopsy or conviction. Regards [[User:Spy-cicle|<span style='color: #ceff00;background-color: #1e1e1e;'><b>&nbsp;Spy-cicle💥&nbsp;</b></span>]] [[User talk:Spy-cicle#top|<sup><span style='color: #ceff00;background-color: #1e1e1e;'><b>''Talk''?</b></span></sup>]] 14:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 308 => '*'''Oppose''' to align with similar articles (such as [[Death of Eric Garner]]) per [[WP:CONSISTENT]]. Moreover, until there is an autopsy or formal charges, it would violate neutrality to presume this was a murder by using "killing", even if that ends up being the case. [[User:RunningTiger123|RunningTiger123]] ([[User talk:RunningTiger123|talk]]) 15:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 309 => '*'''Support''' – The death of George Floyd was caused by another man. That makes it a killing, and we should not deny that. [[User:Sembeljaars|Sembeljaars]] ([[User talk:Sembeljaars|talk]]) 16:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 310 => '*'''Oppose''' Patience will out. [[User:Objective3000|O3000]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 16:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 311 => '*'''Support''' per {{u|Gorilla Warfare}}, whose arguments are wholly convincing. Oppose unhelpful [[WP:BADGER|badgering]] by both sides. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 17:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 312 => '', 313 => '*'''Support''' - and the facts at hand include an attempted coverup, which I take as cause to believe that Chauvin also considered it a killing. However, I like the suggestion from [[User:Levivich]] to call it ''State v. Derek Chauvin'', with a few redirects. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 23:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 314 => '', 315 => '*'''Support''' – While I understand that staying neutral is important but neutrality in this case would be a reflection of supporting something that needs condemning at all levels. What needs not be forgotten is underlying connotations of words. Given the involved officer has been charged with third-degree murder according to this source<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.vox.com/2020/5/31/21276049/derek-chauvin-tou-thao-kueng-lane-officers-george-floyd-what-we-know}}</ref> I firmly believe that the page should be renamed to killing rather than "death"[[User:NotJuggerNot|NotJuggerNot]] ([[User talk:NotJuggerNot|talk]]) 23:23, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 316 => '', 317 => '* '''Support''': Floyd was killed. We should reflect in the title more specifically what happened to him. We know he was killed. [[User:WhoAteMyButter|<span style="color:#ffb300;text-shadow:1px 1px 6px rgba(255,153,0,0.6)">WhoAteMyButter</span>]] ([[User talk:WhoAteMyButter|<span title="Talk Page">📬</span>]]│[[Special:Contributions/WhoAteMyButter|<span title="Contribs">✏️</span>]]) 03:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 318 => '', 319 => '* '''Strong Support''': The killer was charged with murder, the most recent autopsy agrees with the criminal justice system. There is no reason to deny reality. It's only a matter of time before the DOJ agrees this is murder. What more is needed? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.197.117.9|68.197.117.9]] ([[User talk:68.197.117.9#top|talk]]) 05:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->', 320 => '*'''Strong Support''' per the autopsy report. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 07:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 321 => '', 322 => '====Second convenience section====', 323 => '*'''Very strong support''' The videos have made it clear that George Floyd was killed by another person. It is not sensationalist to use "Killing" because this change would not be at the expense of accuracy, while sensationalism does come at the expense of accuracy. This article is about more than just George Floyd's death, the article also talks about the result of the fact that he was killed. Floyd simply dying is not the reason riots are happening right now, it is the fact that he was killed by another person and the title should reflect this fact. [[User:MeumInfernum|MeumInfernum]] ([[User talk:MeumInfernum|talk]]) 13:26, May 29, 2020 (EST)', 324 => '*'''Strong Oppose''' Until there is an autopsy and/or charges are laid the article's name should remain the same. --[[User:Partridgepentathalon|Partridgepentathalon]] ([[User talk:Partridgepentathalon|talk]]) 17:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 325 => '::{{u|Partridgepentathalon}}, charges have been filed in case you would like to update your !vote. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 326 => '*'''Support''' per {{u|Gorilla Warfare}} and {{u|MeumInfernum}}. [[User:ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester|ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester]] ([[User talk:ProletariatetsBefrielseOrkester|talk]]) 18:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 327 => '*'''Oppose for now''' until somebody gets a verdict. But considering that technically nobody is even charged yet, it would be an unnecessary breaking of [[wp:NPOV]] which plenty of activists on this site now seem to be all to happy to ignore. [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5|2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9200:1310:B572:A327:336C:45D5|talk]]) 18:19, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 328 => '*'''Support''' - The general consensus right now is that it is a murder. Unless a source comes out and proves the contrary, it should be labeled as such and only changed if the autopsy proves otherwise. [[User:Lbparker40|Lbparker40]] ([[User talk:Lbparker40|talk]]) 18:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 329 => '*'''Support''' now that the perpetrator has been charged with murder. Plenty of reliable sources describe Floyd's death as "killing".[https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-28/george-floyd-police-chiefs-criminal-justice-reform][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames][https://www.cbsnews.com/live/video/20200529180421-more-on-the-fallout-from-the-killing-of-george-floyd/]. It doesn't matter if other sources, or even more sources, have characterized the killing as "death". Those are not indicative of disparate points of view. As it turns out, death is the direct result of being killed. - [[user:MrX|MrX]][[user talk:MrX| 🖋]] 18:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 330 => '*'''Support''' per the precedent of other articles like [[Shooting of Michael Brown]], [[Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko]], etc. The word "killing" does not imply murder. "Kill" only implies that Floyd did not die from some cause like disease or suicide; it implies that his life ended upon action by another human being. That Floyd died upon action by another person is irrefutable. [[User:BirdValiant|BirdValiant]] ([[User talk:BirdValiant|talk]]) 18:33, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 331 => '*'''Strong Support''' His death was caused by another individual harming him. Death makes it sound like he died of disease or natural causes. [[User:CodingCyclone|CodingCyclone]] ([[User talk:CodingCyclone|talk]]) 18:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 332 => '*'''Oppose for now''', Wikipedia is not judge and jury and should remain a neutral arbiter of facts as they stand, precedence in other articles is that we use "Death" (eg [[Death of Eric Garner]]). If the officers involved are indicted and convicted at trial then will be the appropriate time to discuss renaming the article. [[User:Zerbey|Zerbey]] ([[User talk:Zerbey|talk]]) 18:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 333 => '*'''Support''' He wouldn't be dead if it weren't for the knee on his neck. He was murdered. To say otherwise is disrespecting Mr Floyd and dissing the truth. [[User:Oxyaena|Ms.23]] ([[User talk:Oxyaena|talk]]) 18:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 334 => '*'''Strong Support''' - The Wikipedia article on manslaughter states, "Involuntary manslaughter is the killing of a human being without intent of doing so, either expressed or implied." It is obvious from the video that the Derek Chauvin's actions directly lead to the death of George Floyd which is (at least) manslaughter and therefore "killing" is the correct designation. [[User:Kmorris1077|Kmorris1077]] ([[User talk:Kmorris1077|talk]]) 18:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 335 => '*'''Oppose for now''' until somebody gets a verdict. And then it should probably be "Murder" like at [[Murder of Jordan Edwards]].[[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] ([[User talk:Oneiros|talk]]) 18:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 336 => '*'''Strong Support''' – It's obvious to anybody with eyes that this was a murder, and now that there's a formal charge put forward, there's no excuse left. [[User:Cat&#39;s Tuxedo|Cat&#39;s Tuxedo]] ([[User talk:Cat&#39;s Tuxedo|talk]]) 18:53, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 337 => '*'''Support''' - The manner in which he died has ample evidence. It was at the hands of another person and it's not a coincidence. I understand the need to have a cited source, but when it's plainly obvious a man had his knee on his neck, what more do you need? There's no ambiguity here. [[User:Leitmotiv|Leitmotiv]] ([[User talk:Leitmotiv|talk]]) 19:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 338 => '* '''Strong Support''' A killing is "an act of causing death." His death was caused. Passive voice in describing the events is not neutral but a deliberate stance. [[User:Liberte et paix|Liberte et paix]] ([[User talk:Liberte et paix|talk]]) 19:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 339 => '* '''Strong support''': The page should be moved to Killing of George Floyd as the Cop was charged with third degree murder. <ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/george-floyd-death-live-updates-protests-erupt-200529124843031.html}}</ref> --[[User:Vegitaboss|Vegitaboss]] ([[User talk:Vegitaboss|talk]]) 19:18, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 340 => '{{Reflist talk}}', 341 => '* '''Strong Support''' Derek has now been charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter, making this officially a killing by the courts standards of an arrest warrant. I also think that most 'oppose for now' votes prior to the official charges no longer apply because of the official arrest charges, putting the consesnus largely in favor of a name change to "killing". Would like to hear from any past 'oppose for now' voters to see if they agree.[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 19:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 342 => '* '''Strong support''' It should be immediately moved to Killing or Murder of George Floyd as the cop who kneeled on this man's neck is charged with third-degree murder <ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/us-cop-taken-into-custody-over-death-of-black-man-that-caused-widespread-anger-2237530?pfrom=home-bigstory}}</ref> [[User:Neurofreak|Neurofreak]] ([[User talk:Neurofreak|talk]]) 19:49, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 343 => '* '''Weak Oppose''' – “Killing” feels like it’s getting into POV territory considering the controversy surrounding what happened. Also feels like an unnecessary deviation from similar incidents like the [[Death of Eric Garner]], which also uses “Death of” despite being declared a homicide. - [[User:Koldcuts|Koldcuts]] ([[User talk:Koldcuts|talk]]) 20:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 344 => ':: Just saw he’s been charged with murder. Oppose is now a weak oppose. - [[User:Koldcuts|Koldcuts]] ([[User talk:Koldcuts|talk]]) 20:15, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 345 => '*'''Support''' per RealFakeKim. [[User:AugusteBlanqui|AugusteBlanqui]] ([[User talk:AugusteBlanqui|talk]]) 20:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 346 => '* '''Support''' as per semantic arguments given in the discussion section below by {{user|Darouet}}. -- ''[[User:Pingumeister|Pingumeister]]''<sup>([[User talk:Pingumeister|talk]])</sup> 20:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 347 => '* '''Support''' per RealFakeKim's arguments. [[User:Demoxica|Demoxica]] ([[User talk:Demoxica|talk]]) 20:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 348 => '*'''Support''' as per all the arguments above. Since the officer involved (Derek Chauvin) has been charged with murder, the title should probably be changed to "Murder of George Floyd". [[User:Octoberwoodland|Octoberwoodland]] ([[User talk:Octoberwoodland|talk]]) 20:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 349 => '*'''Oppose for now''' The details of the death are unclear. Killing suggests a motive beyond just wanting to detain someone (regardless of the validity of the reason to want to detain). "Death of" is more neutral. Depending on the final legal outcome a change may be appropriate in the future. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 20:53, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 350 => '* '''Support''' per BirdValiant. "Death" is not more neutral than "Killing", particularly in light of the charge with third-degree murder. ''Freeman emphasized he and his team would not have moved ahead with the case if they were not confident they had evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the officer was guilty. “As of right now, we have that,” Freeman said.''[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2020/may/29/george-floyd-killing-protests-minneapolis-minnesota-us-twitter-donald-trump-latest-news-live?page=with:block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0#block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0] --[[User:DarTar|DarTar]] ([[User talk:DarTar|talk]]) 20:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 351 => '* '''Support''' for "Killing", and after the trial another move should be considered WRT "Murder". It is clear that a man's actions resulted in another man's death with just the video alone. The court of public opinion has no place on Wikipedia but this isn't a matter of opinion. "Murder" would be, but "Killing" does not as "Killing" can be state-sanctioned. -- [[User:Sarysa|sarysa]] ([[User talk:Sarysa|talk]]) 21:07, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 352 => '* '''Strong Support''' for "Killing" with "Murder" considered in the future, per reasons expressed above by {{user|Sarysa}}. [[User:Calcastor|Calcastor]] ([[User talk:Calcastor|talk]]) 21:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 353 => '* '''Strong Support''' This is indeed a killing. Derek Chauvin was charged with "Third-Degree Murder" and "manslaughter". If Chauvin had not knelt on Floyd's neck for that long, Floyd might have survived. I would also like to say that, *I feel like "Killing" is more appropriate than "Murder". [[User:Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)|Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)]] ([[User talk:Pi&#61;3.14(Nick)|talk]]) 21:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 354 => '::Charging means that investigators think a particular thing. It does not prove that their thinking is accurate. Else, charging would be the end of the matter and we'd have no need to consult those pesky courts. We should wait for the autopsy to determine whether an individual was responsible for the death. It shouldn't take so long; there is no need to rush it. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 21:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 355 => '* '''Oppose''' Death is a neutral term and does not imply that it was not caused by another person. Although the police officer has been charged with murder, we should wait till the conviction. [[User:SignificantPBD|SignificantPBD]] ([[User talk:SignificantPBD|talk]]) 22:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 356 => '* '''Strong Support''' for "Killing" with "Murder" considered in the future. Here's a link to a page that contains the full complaint against Chauvin: https://www.axios.com/george-floyd-police-officer-in-custody-080da82e-9262-47fd-a52c-3ef7421adb10.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3IHDzPMJwi5Oobg6p4z_DkbYnoujgV5UteWUafnkdNWdxGDK4fzf-9U2E [[User:John Link|John Link]] ([[User talk:John Link|talk]]) 22:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 357 => '::Based on the consistency argument by {{user| Awilley}} I've changed my opinion to '''Oppose'''. [[User:John Link|John Link]] ([[User talk:John Link|talk]]) 15:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 358 => '*'''Strong Support''' Mr Floyd was obviously killed by that bitch cop, so "Killing of George Floyd" should be the correct title of this article.[[User:Sadsadas|Sadsadas]] ([[User talk:Sadsadas|talk]]) 22:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 359 => '*'''Strong Oppose''' I agree that Floyd's death was no question a killing, and I hope the cop rots, but like previous people have mentioned, the Eric Garner page is still titled "Death of". Wikipedia must be free of ANY bias, even if we as social beings all agree that this was a killing [[User:Thurgoodmarshallisbae|Thurgoodmarshallisbae]] ([[User talk:Thurgoodmarshallisbae|talk]]) 23:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 360 => '*'''Strong support''' If 4 different video angles (possibly more) doesn’t justify this was in fact a killing of an unarmed black man, I don’t know what ever will. [[User:TruthGuardians|TruthGuardians]] ([[User talk:TruthGuardians|talk]]) 23:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 361 => '* '''Strong Support''' The officer was directly responsible for Floyd's death and has been charged with murder, therefore he killed him. [[User:GarethPW|GarethPW]] ([[User talk:GarethPW|talk]]) 00:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 362 => '* '''Strong support''' The video speaks for itself. And I actually want to add that we have this redirect [[Mohamed Noor (murderer)]], a black Minneapolis Police officer who accidentally killed a white lady. When the cop is black, we have no problem calling it a murder. --[[User:Deansfa|Deansfa]] ([[User talk:Deansfa|talk]]) 00:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 363 => ':::That redirect was created ''after'' Noor was actually convicted of murder. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 16:33, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 364 => '*'''Oppose'''. Until the cause of death is officially established, we should not characterize it. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 00:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 365 => '* '''Strong support''' "Death" sounds like a natural one. This is the murder we are talking about. Suitable title would be '''Murder of George Floyd'''. Mark my words, even if you wont change the name now, eventually it will end up with "Murder" word only. --[[User:NaveenNkadalaveni|Naveen N Kadalaveni]] ([[User talk:NaveenNkadalaveni|talk]]) 00:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 366 => '* '''Support''' for all the reasons above. It may not have been a murder but it was unquestionably a killing by any useful definition of the term "kill". [[User:Lexicon|Lexicon]] <small>[[User talk:Lexicon|(talk)]]</small> 01:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 367 => '* '''Support''', if reliable sources are using "killed", so should we. "Killing" doesn't require that a crime has been committed, it simply means that a person's death was caused by another person, which is clearly the case here. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 02:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 368 => '* '''Oppose for now''': Unclear verdict per other oppose reasons. Until a clear verdict on Floyd's death is reached, we should not risk changing the title into something else which throws off other readers. If the title does change, a suitable article name would probably be "Murder of George Floyd," but since a verdict for Floyd is not reached yet we shouldn't tamper with the title yet. [[User:Thissecretperson|Thissecretperson]] ([[User talk:Thissecretperson|talk]]) 02:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 369 => '* '''Support''' He was killed, no source denies that, so let's call it a killing. --[[User:Denny|denny vrandečić]] ([[User talk:Denny|talk]]) 02:53, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 370 => '* '''Support'''. The police didn't need to knee on his neck for so long if he didn't want to kill him. Humans need to breathe, if you don't let someone do that, then you are killing him.--[[User:Andres arg|Andres arg]] ([[User talk:Andres arg|talk]]) 02:55, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 371 => '* '''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet. <span style="color:#666">&ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|<span style="color:#f90;">&nbsp;+</span>]]</span> 02:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 372 => '* '''Support''' It’s a killing. Death implies ambiguity about how he died. It hasn’t been adjudicated whether it’s a murder but it’s clearly both true and easily verifiable that it was a killing. [[User:MarylandGeoffrey|MarylandGeoffrey]] ([[User talk:MarylandGeoffrey|talk]]) 03:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 373 => '* '''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet + MarylandGeoffrey. = [[User:Paul2520|paul2520]] ([[User talk:Paul2520|talk]]) 03:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 374 => '*'''Strong Support''' because of the overwhelming evidence that was filmed and widely published by independent and mainstream media. That officer knelt of the victim's neck for nearly 9 minutes, even after the latter had repeatedly told him he could not breathe, even after passersby pleaded with him to let go of him or he'd kill him. [[User:Israell|Israell]] ([[User talk:Israell|talk]]) 05:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 375 => '*'''Support killing''' as that is what happened. It is not like they died spontaneously and 4 police officers just happened to be holding him in their arms. The problem with such politically charged cases, like trumps weight is one can find physicians to say anything. Wound not user murder. Killing is sort of a middle ground. Death appear to be trying to obfuscate and sanitize what occurred. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 06:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC) ', 376 => '* '''Oppose''': It is absolutely true that Floyd died, and calling it a death in no way absolves the officer whose actions caused that death. "Killing" seems accurate but unnecessarily sensationalistic. [[User:Peter Chastain|<font face="Palatino Linotype">Peter Chastain</font>]] [[User talk:Peter Chastain|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[¡hablá!]</sup></font>]] 06:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 377 => '** I have a question. Killing doesn't have to be intentional. But what definition of killing do you intend to use. Per one definition it is equivalent to murder, per another it's simply to make something die. It can be used in different situations. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 03:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 378 => '* '''Support''': It isn't sensationalist—it's just accurate. [[User:Karmos|Karmos]] ([[User talk:Karmos|talk]]) 06:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 379 => '* '''Support''' - after watching the video, yeah he definitely killed him [[User:Urgal|Urgal]] ([[User talk:Urgal|talk]]) 07:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 380 => '* '''Support''', since there are reliable sources available for "killing" (some mentioned above; e.g. see Nemo's comment). [[User:Ahmad252|Ahmad]]<sup>[[User Talk:Ahmad252|talk]]</sup> 07:40, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 381 => '* '''Oppose''', but only on a technical level, and somewhat weakly at that. [[User:Tentonne|Tentonne]] ([[User talk:Tentonne|talk]]) 08:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 382 => '* '''Support''', given that third degree murder charges have been levied, and to accurately assess the situation. [[User:Teddybearearth|Teddybearearth]] ([[User talk:Teddybearearth|talk]]) 08:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 383 => '* '''Oppose''' The preliminary autopsy finding leaves open the possibility of accidental death ("''The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death''"). I think we need to wait for such a change until either a conviction, or a more detailed autopsy report. -- [[User:Netwalker3|Netwalker3]] ([[User talk:Netwalker3|talk]]) 08:28, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 384 => '*'''Strong support''' If 4 different video angles (possibly more to come) doesn’t justify that this was, in fact, a killing of an unarmed black man, I don’t know what ever will.[[User:TruthGuardians|TruthGuardians]] ([[User talk:TruthGuardians|talk]]) 08:48, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 385 => '* '''Strong Support''' per TruthGuardians. Simply watching the video settles this discussion. [[User:CrispyCream27|<span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #f4802b; color: #ffffff;">CrispyCream27</span>]] [[User Talk:CrispyCream27|<sup><span style='color: #f4802b;background-color: '><b>''(Talk)''</b></span></sup>]] 09:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 386 => '* '''Oppose''' Going to oppose this one. I understand that it certaintly seems like an unlawful killing of a civilian, and I do agree that it was unfair, unjust, and a blatant abuse of power, however Wikipedia is not the place to be using loaded langauge like that, especially considering the very current state of this news. [[User:Maxmmyron|Maxmmyron]] ([[User talk:Maxmmyron|talk]]) 10:10, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 387 => '* '''Strong support''' per {{u|RealFakeKim}}, {{u|TruthGuardians}} and {{u|GarethPW}}. Choosing the passive "death" is PoV; it is also loaded language. Floyd didn't just "die", he was killed. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; please &#123;&#123;[[Template:ping|ping]]&#125;&#125; me in replies)</small></span> 10:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 388 => '*'''Oppose''' - especially for now, but even when the autopsy comes out I'm not sure if we should change it. "Killing" is usually defined as intentionally or deliberately taking someones life, unless that police officer says he intentionally took Floyd's life, I think it would be a NPOV issue to say killing. Death will always be a neutral term, in my opinion. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 10:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 389 => '*'''Oppose for now''' - as per naming conventions. As more information becomes available, the title of the article may need to be changed to reflect this new information. [[User:CremationLily|CremationLily]] ([[User talk:CremationLily|talk]]) 10:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 390 => '*'''Support''' It is backed up by multiple sources and the video itself. In the current landscape I do not think Death would be considered a neutral term at all, killing more accurately reflects the general opinion from what I have seen. The police officers intentions also should not effect the terminology, killing does not need to be intentional to still be classified as killing. His arrest has also shown that he is considered to have killed someone by the state. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dubarr18|Dubarr18]] ([[User talk:Dubarr18#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dubarr18|contribs]]) 11:05, 30 May 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->', 391 => '*'''Support''' per Nemo + GorillaWarfare + Darouet + MarylandGeoffrey. [[User:MacDoesWiki|MacDoesWiki]] ([[User talk:MacDoesWiki|talk]]) 04:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 392 => '*'''Support''' Since the officer has been charged, there is now more than enough justification to change the title. [[User:Kevin n97|Kevin n97]] ([[User talk:Kevin n97|talk]]) 11:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 393 => '*'''Strong Support''' It would be the Death of George Floyd if he was not murdered, since the current consensus is that he was murdered, it should be the killing. But I do agree that it should wait until the autopsy is complete, but once that occurs I strongly support. [[User:JazzClam|JazzClam]] ([[User talk:JazzClam|talk]]) 13:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 394 => '*'''Support''' (no longer neutral) per GorillaWarfare and Doc James, but also in light of the (questionably independent) autopsy, which nevertheless suggests that the actions of the police officers were partially responsible for the death. i expound on this a bit in the commentary, but it's clear to me that this is a death as a result of the actions of other people, which is a killing (not necessarily a murder, that's a debate for after the trial). Furthermore, more RSes are referring to it as a killing. Some do still refer to it as a death - it isn't ''not'' a death. But [[WP:COMMONNAME]] applies. In relation to "sensationalism", keeping it as "death" can have an inference of the ''lack'' of an external agency, so it's not an [[WP:NPOV]]-safe approach. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 13:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 395 => '*'''Strong Oppose''' Since Wikipedia for the most part functions as an encyclopedia and therefore by default must describe any subject as objective, neutral and truthful as possible, Mr. Floyds' death must remain the title of the article until a trial and final investigation of cause of death have been concluded. Any other title is biased and nothing more than a judgmental people's court. We are not medical professionals or judges examining and convicting in this case. If Wikipedia does not entail neutral information, its purpose becomes irrelevant and invalid.--[[User:Lechatmarbre|Lechatmarbre]] ([[User talk:Lechatmarbre|talk]]) 13:58, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 396 => '*'''Support'''. I further suggest we change the article title to "Murder of George Floyd" since the police officer that committed the murder has been charged with the same. [[Special:Contributions/74.76.172.231|74.76.172.231]] ([[User talk:74.76.172.231|talk]]) 14:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 397 => '*'''Strong Support''' unless one can prove that the video was doctored or that Mr Floyd spontaneously got tired of breathing of his own volition. In fact "Murder of George Floyd" should be the name of this article by the time this debate is over. [[User:AnyDosMilVint|AnyDosMilVint]] ([[User talk:AnyDosMilVint|talk]]) 15:14, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 398 => '*'''Long Oppose''' In tragic situations like this when people are filled with anger and despair it is important that we let policy guide us. In this case the relevant policy is [[WP:Article titles]]. That policy lists 5 criteria up front: '''Recognizability''', '''Naturalness''', '''Precision''', '''Conciseness''', and '''Consistency'''. Other criteria are discussed later: [[WP:Commonname]] and [[WP:NPOVTITLE|Neutrality]]. I will try to evaluate the two titles based on these. ', 399 => '*:The two names are equally recognizable, natural, pricise, and concise. (Note that "precision" is talking about unambiguously identifying the subject and distinguishing it from other subjects, not the preciseness of the words we use.) That leaves us with Consistency, Commonness, and Neutrality.', 400 => '*:'''Consistency''': If we look at {{cl|Deaths_in_police_custody_in_the_United_States}} we have the following constructions:', 401 => '*::"Death of [Name]"', 402 => '*::"Murder of [Name]"', 403 => '*::"[Name]"', 404 => '*:There are no instances of "Killing of [Name]"', 405 => '*:A larger sample of articles is at {{cl|Filmed killings by law enforcement}}. That has similar examples of the above 3 constructions plus a lot of "Shooting of [Name]". But again zero examples of "Killing..." So Consistency favors "Death".', 406 => '*:'''Commonname''': There's not a great way of measuring this, but Google Search counts (with and without quotes) both favor "Death". (With quotes the ratio was about 4:3)', 407 => '*:'''Neutrality''': This is largely an issue of [[WP:WORDS]]. On Wikipedia we avoid judgemental and non-neutral words that may introduce bias. In [[WP:SAID]], "Synnonyms for said" could be compared with "Synnonyms for death". "Murdered", "lynched", "martyred", "massacred", "slaughtered", "exterminated", "executed", "passed away" all imply different things and evoke different emotions. But "death" is neutral.', 408 => '*:'''BLP''' One more consideration is [[WP:BLP|our policy on living persons]]. It is against our rules to conclude that a living person has committed a crime until that person has been convicted in court. "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction." So it would be problmatic to state in Wikipedia's voice that it was a killing. (Obviously if the officer is convicted the article can be moved at that point, probably to "Murder of..." or "Strangulation of..."', 409 => ':I would also like to respond briefly to some common arguments here that are not based in policy.', 410 => '::"It is obviously a killing. Anybody can see that in the video. We should call it what it is." [[WP:Original research|It is not our job to make that judgement]]. Our job is to follow the best reliable sources and, in this case, the verdict of a jury.', 411 => '::"We should wait and see what the autopsy report says." This is good thinking, and the result of the autopsy report should be in the article, but [[WP:BLPCRIME]] is clear that it is the conviction in a court of law in that matters.', 412 => '::"The officer has now been charged, so we can call it a killing." Again, it's the conviction, not the charge, that matters.', 413 => ':Final note: As this is a highly emotional topic that is drawing many new editors, the eventual close of this request should include a detailed analysis addressing the arguments and policy basis of the result. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 14:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 414 => '::{{u|Awilley}}, your claim "There are no instances of 'Killing of [Name]' " is false. '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Killing+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1 There are more than 30 articles with "Killing of (Name)"]'''.---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 16:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 415 => ':::C&C, I didn't claim that there were no articles with "Killing of..." I simply confined my search to categories containing articles similar to this. If you want to do a raw count of all articles everywhere then you should be comparing it to this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Death+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1] <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 18:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 416 => '::::I think C&C's list is the relevant compmarison. The "Death of ..." articles includes the much larger category of people who were not killed, for example the deaths of famous people by disease, accident, or other noteorhty circumstances. [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 16:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 417 => ':::::SPECIFICO, that's correct. In order to do a meaningful comparison between C&C's list of '''52''' "Killing of..." articles and the list of '''507''' "Death of..." articles you would need to comb through and subtract all the irrelevant articles like [[Killing of animals]] and [[Death of Samantha (song)]] and the articles about people who died of natural causes. This is why it makes sense to use categories to look at a limited samples of people killed by police as I did above. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~[[User:Awilley|Awilley]] <small>([[User talk:Awilley|talk]])</small></span> 14:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 418 => '::{{u|Awilley}}, I agree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Filmed_killings_by_law_enforcement is the most relevant precedent, but of the "[noun] of [name]"s there, the vast majority are "shooting". There is no good analog of "shooting" for Floyd, because there's not really any appropriate single word that describes the manner in which he was killed. "Killing" is the next closest thing: less specific as to the method, but still clear that Floyd's death was caused by the police action. No blame or crime is implied. [[User:Danstronger|Danstronger]] ([[User talk:Danstronger|talk]]) 00:53, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 419 => '* '''Support''': As long as the article doesn't imply a deliberate killing. Killing can also refer to simply causing death even if you don't mean it. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 17:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 420 => '* '''Support''' Death is not a neutral term in that situation. As per [[User:Devgirl|Devgirl]], Occam's razor and a ton of evidence point that it was a killing, and. Even though this is not standard practice on Wikipedia, this case is not standard. I feel that omission and labeling as "Death" instead of killing is deliberately choosing to be imprecise. And that implies that there is a reasonable chance that he was not killed. And as per the information available, that is not a reasonable assumption. So death is not "neutral", it is just broader. And casting this shadow of doubt on such an important event is not the goal of Wikipedia. [[User:TiagoLubiana|TiagoLubiana]] ([[User talk:TiagoLubiana|talk]]) 18:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 421 => '* '''Oppose'''. The standard title format for this situation is '''Death of (person)'''. [[User:KyuuA4|KyuuA4]] ([[User_talk:KyuuA4|Talk:キュウ]]) 19:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 422 => '* '''Strong support'''. I 100% agree that the article should be moved to [[Killing of George Floyd]]. I’ve checked on Wikipedia, and from what I see, “Death of” is usually used people like [[Death of Osama Bin Laden]], [[Death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi]], [[Death of Benito Mussolini]], and it is also used for nonviolent deaths and some suicides while “killing of” is used for people like [[Killing of Mollie Tibbetts]], [[Killing of Peter Fechter]], and surprisingly, lots of recent prominent animal deaths like [[Killing of Harambe]] or [[Killing of Cecil the Lion]]. [[Death of Freddie Gray]] is listed as “death of”, but I think I’ll try to change that. [[User:Yoleaux|Yoleaux]] ([[User talk:Yoleaux|talk]]) 20:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 423 => '* '''SUPPORT''' They were clearly killed. You have video footage of what happened. There is no possible way he would've just died if he hadn't been in that situation. If the jury rules it was murder, this can be renamed against to Murder of George Floyd. It is not original research to look at a video and see what happened, its common sense. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 21:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 424 => '*:{{u|Dream Focus}}, that's exactly what original research is. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 00:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 425 => '* '''Support'''. The most reliable source is the video itself. The video clearly shows that Derek Chauvin was the primary factor in George Floyd's becoming unresponsive. I think this is common sense that the most neutral thing we can do is call it a killing. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 22:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 426 => '* '''Strong Support'''. Derek Chauvin was charged with third degree murder of George Floyd. At least from the state prosecution's side, killing or even murder is the correct word to describe what had happened. [[User:JesseC436|JesseC436]] ([[User talk:JesseC436|talk]]) 22:44, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 427 => '* '''Support''', per JesseC436. [[User:L ke|L ke]] ([[User talk:L ke|talk]]) 23:06, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 428 => '* '''Strong Oppose''' results of the autopsy do not show that this was caused by strangulation. Regardless of how you feel about the video, it's best to remain neutral until a trial finds him guilty/innocent, at which point we can change the title if necessary. [[User:Anon0098|Anon0098]] ([[User talk:Anon0098|talk]]) 02:09, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 429 => '* '''Provisionally Oppose''' The results of the autopsy seems to be inconclusive. I'd wait a few days before moving this page if more reliable sources appear in the meantime. [[user:BrxBrx|BrxBrx]]([[user talk:BrxBrx|talk]])<sup>(please reply with <nowiki>{{SUBST:</nowiki>re|BrxBrx<nowiki>}}</nowiki>)</sup> 02:40, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 430 => '* '''Support''' because it makes sense with other Wikipedia articles. --[[User:Xicanx|Xicanx]] ([[User talk:Xicanx|talk]]) 06:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 431 => '* '''Support''', I do agree that "Death of George Floyd" implies a death due to natural causes. I feel that killing more accurately reflects the situation, especially given the obvious and unjustified police brutality present. Killing does not imply a deliberate intent, "Murder of George Floyd" would be a title that implies that. [[User:Devonian Wombat|Devonian Wombat]] ([[User talk:Devonian Wombat|talk]]) 08:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 432 => '* '''Strong Support''' "Death" is a passive word, implying "the life just ended". "Killed" is an active word, implying "something happened to stop that life at that point". Except in the most philosophical sense, it is abundantly clear that Floyd would not have died at that time if not for the actions of Chauvin.', 433 => '*:Even in the highly unlikely scenario that Derek's death happened to be due to some unlikely medical circumstance unrelated to the knee on his neck, it would still be the case that he was prevented from seeking aid by Chauvin, that others were preventing from providing aid by the officers on scene, and that none of the officers on scene took action to provide aid, or call for aid. As such, it is clear that, even if there needs to be some distinction that (from a legal standpoint) this may not yet be able to called a murder, it can definitely, and should definitely, be called a killing.', 434 => '*:Even putting all that aside, and focusing on what's been published in the media, there is support for the use of the phrase. The Guardian has an article [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/30/george-floyd-protests-latest-at-a-glance-white-house George Floyd killing sparks protests across the US: at a glance guide]. Fox40 has [https://fox40.com/news/local-news/protests-of-solidarity-surround-state-capitol-in-wake-of-george-floyd-killing/ Protests of solidarity surround Stae Capitol in wake of Geoorge Floyd killing]. Politico has [https://www.politico.com/video/2020/05/30/nationwide-protest-erupt-over-the-killing-of-george-floyd-076463 Nationwide protests erupt over the killing of George Floyd]. MSNBC has [https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/george-floyd-killing-highlights-toxic-police-culture-84119621866 George Floyd killing highlights toxic police culture]. If we need more examples, they are plentiful and not difficult to find. [[User:Aawood|Aawood]] ([[User talk:Aawood|talk]]) 09:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 435 => '* '''Support''' There are precedents for both ways of phrasing it and the passiveness of "Death of" doesn't convey the perspective that ignited the protests. Everything that's happening as a result of George Floyd's death wouldn't have happened if he simply died. His death was caused by another person. He was killed by a police officer. Whether the killing was intentional or not is irrelevant. Whether he had underlying health conditions or not is irrelevant. George Floyd would not be dead if the police officer didn't do what he did. [[User:TJScalzo|TJScalzo]] ([[User talk:TJScalzo|talk]]) 09:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 436 => '*:With the [https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html independent autopsy] that has been made public, I reaffirm my support for this move. [[User:TJScalzo|TJScalzo]] ([[User talk:TJScalzo|talk]]) 09:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 437 => '* '''Strong support''', and per my comment at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Floyd]], I think ultimately this page should be at [[George Floyd]] and expanded to a biography on the subject. In the alternative, a shorter bio at [[George Floyd]] with this page as the main section about his <s>murder</s>killing. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 10:49, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 438 => '* '''Support''' The whole event hinges on the fact that Gorge Floyd was killed due to use of excessive and unreasonable force by the police. 'Death' plays into the false narrative that he just happened to die while around police. 'Killing' clarifies that the death was caused by the police, which we know to be the case. [[User talk:Melmann|Melmann]] 11:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 439 => '*'''Oppose''' for now. People do call it a killing so the redirect makes sense. However, because it is not confirmed yet he was killed, whether intentionally or unintentionally, so Wikipedia should keep the title as death to stay neutral. [[User:OcelotCreeper|<span style="color:#DAA520;">Ocelot</span><span style="color:green;">Creeper</span>]] ([[User talk:OcelotCreeper|<span style="color:#DAA520">ta</span><span style="color:green;">lk</span>]]) 15:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 440 => '* '''Strong Support''' I understand the neutral language policy etc. However, we cannot change the reality and nature of an event to support neutral language. This is not the matter here. Right now in this wikipedia if you search 'the killing of' you can see a lot of article titles come up with it. On the other hand, it is clear in the footage that the (former) officer knew what he was doing and he did it deliberately. Police education includes CPR and information about what can kill and what happens if you cut oxygen delivery to the brain for more than 5 minutes. Even if he released pressure on his neck before he died he would acquire significant brain injury. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 15:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 441 => '* '''Support:''' It is safe enough to call the situation manslaughter, so killing would be a proper title. I may partly see why people may choose to leave it as "Death", I lean more towards "Killing", since there was police brutality and non-premeditated homicide in the situation. About full on murder, however, I'd rather not rename it like that. [[User:Maese Juan 25|Maese Juan 25]] ([[User talk:Maese Juan 25|talk]]) 17:08, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 442 => '*'''Support''' per sourcing and the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'' of "kill" not not imply intent. I support later moving the page to "murder" if the cop(s) are found guilty. [[User:TJMSmith|TJMSmith]] ([[User talk:TJMSmith|talk]]) 17:48, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 443 => '* '''Support''' – Media worldwide has already used the word 'kill' to describe the event. Chauvin has also been arrested for murder. [[User:Nahnah4|Nahnah4]] ([[User talk:Nahnah4|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Nahnah4|contribs]]) 18:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 444 => '*'''Support''' per above, there's not much more to be argued [[User:Leotext|Leotext]] ([[User talk:Leotext|talk]]) 18:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 445 => '* '''Support.''' Clearly and obviously a killing. "Death of" is less precise. [[User:Snooganssnoogans|Snooganssnoogans]] ([[User talk:Snooganssnoogans|talk]]) 19:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 446 => '*'''Support''' Further investigation shows that he was indeed choked to death. No need to kneel on the neck of a handcuffed person.[[User:Tinyastro|Tinyastro]] ([[User talk:Tinyastro|talk]]) 19:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 447 => '*'''Strong Support:''' Chauvin is shown kneeling on Floyd's neck to the point of being unable to breath & has been charge with third-degree murder. This is not some random death, but a deliberate killing. [[User:WakandaForever188|WakandaForever188]] ([[User talk:WakandaForever188|talk]]) 19:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 448 => '* '''Oppose''' for now, maybe later after a cause of death is more clearly determined. Right now the preliminary autopsy report seems to say natural causes, but the officer has been charged with murder, so the official record is muddled. Many such articles are labeled "Shooting of" but in this case the cause of death has not been clearly established on the record. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 20:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 449 => '*<s>Oppose</s> While it seems clear he died as a result of his treatment by police, there is no consistent use of "kill" among RS, and per Awiley, "death" is used more consistently in article titles. "Death" is even used as a header in BLPs of murder victims. <u>Also, we should consider the unlikely possibility that he coincidentally died from drugs he may have been on. This is why we should resist the temptation to use OR analysis of the event.</u> [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 21:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)<small>[[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 14:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)</small>', 450 => '*:'''Strong support''' per autopsy reports. [[User:Kolya Butternut|Kolya Butternut]] ([[User talk:Kolya Butternut|talk]]) 01:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 451 => '*'''Support''' - There's no shortage of sources describing the death of George Floyd as a killing. I understand that Wikipedia tends to prefer using as neutral-sounding of language as possible whenever possible, but calling it a killing is not ''not'' neutral. This is less about neutrality and more about semantics and sources. I can understand why some in this thread have said that Wikipedia should wait until a conviction to refer to the homicide as a murder in the title (as we can't know what charges the suspects will or will not be found guilty of), but it's just a well-documented fact that George Floyd was killed and avoiding describing his death a homicide is an erroneous thing to do. As others have pointed out, stating that he was killed doesn't even suggest that it was purposeful (e.g. accidental vehicular homicide is still killing), it simply provides more specific information. I can sympathize with the viewpoint that using the word "death" could make the article come off as having a more neutral tone, and I share the goal of making the article as neutral and accurate as possible, I simply hold the viewpoint that killing is a more accurate term and that using it does not compromise the neutrality of the article's title. Best wishes <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:Vanilla Wizard|<b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF">&nbsp;Vanilla </b>]][[User Talk:Vanilla Wizard|<b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF">&nbsp;Wizard </b>]]</b> [[Special:Contribs/Vanilla Wizard|💙]] 22:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 452 => '*'''Strong Support''' Video evidence unambiguously shows that the death of George Floyd was indeed a killing in that the police officer directly caused his death. According to the definition of the word, even an accidental killing could accurately be described as a killing (though this was certainly not accidental). Apparently more credible sources use the word "death" rather than "killing," but I wonder how many use words that are closer in tone to "killing," such as "murder." Moreover, virtually all credible sources, including those that use "death," clearly state that the police officer caused Mr. Floyd's death, which is the definition of the word "kill." Even if autopsy results show that asphyxiation was not the cause of death, there are other ways one could die from having someone kneel on one's neck for over eight minutes, and it would still be a killing. Additionally, said autopsy results are questionable given that Mr. Floyd's family is requesting an independent autopsy. Given that George Floyd was literally begging not to be killed, those who oppose the title change are encouraged to explain the mental gymnastics that they must perform to argue that the police officer did not cause Mr. Floyd's death. Lastly, Derek Chauvin is currently being charged for murder. "Murder" is clearly above "killing" in terms of intensity of wording. However, if Mr. Chauvin is found guilty, then the title of this page would reasonably be changed to "Murder of George Floyd." It would be strange to jump from "Death of George Floyd" directly to "Murder of George Floyd" without the reasonable middle level of "Killing of George Floyd." If not now, when there is already clear video evidence, what would be the appropriate time to transition from "Death of George Floyd" to "Killing of George Floyd" before potentially intensifying the wording to "Murder of George Floyd"? '''EDIT (1 June 2020): The independent autopsy conducted at the request of George Floyd's family has concluded that his cause of death was “homicide caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain.” Moreover, while the preliminary report from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office initially did not find asphyxia or strangulation as the cause of death, the county's full report has ruled George Floyd's death a homicide attributed to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”''' [[User:Donutzebra|Donutzebra]] ([[User talk:Donutzebra|talk]]) 23:56, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 453 => '*'''Support''' - The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, used "killing" in her condemnation of the events.<ref>{{cite web |title=UN Human Rights Chief urges “serious action” to halt US police killings of unarmed African Americans |url=https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25910&LangID=E |website=www.ohchr.org |publisher=OHCHR |accessdate=1 June 2020}}</ref> [[User:Whsun808|Whsun808]] ([[User talk:Whsun808|talk]]) 03:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 454 => '*'''Support''' the key issue at hand here is NPOV vs. [[WP:Article Titles]]. [[WP:POVTITLE]] states {{tq|When the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title.}} Here, we have no common phrase on the level of the Boston massacre. Both phrases "killing" and "death" are used in media sources, ruling out the possibility of deciding based on usage. In [[WP:CRITERIA]], it really comes down to the "Precision" point. It is more or less unanimously agreed that this is a killing at this point, even by the more conservative sources (see [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/politics/george-floyd-tucker-carlson-rush-limbaugh.html]). Thus this phrase is more precise and at the same time still neutral, as it is a more or less universally agreed upon fact across ideologies. [[User:Sam-2727|Sam-2727]] ([[User talk:Sam-2727|talk]]) 04:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 455 => '* '''Support''' Move to Premeditated killing/murder of George Floyd. // [[User:Eatcha|Eatcha]] ([[User talk:Eatcha|talk]]) 05:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 456 => '* '''Oppose''' So far, perhaps the most comprehensive examination of Wikipedia's editing norms on this subject is by [[User:Awilley|Awilley]] above. It seems to me that most other opposition explanations also cite Wikipedia norms. On the other hand, an enormous number of supporting explanations cite "common sense," or the video of GF's death, or the definitions of "killing" from various dictionary sources. Only a few cite the preference of many RSes, and even this is split. This argument at least addresses the Wikipedia editorial standard. After reading a few hundred positions, I am unconvinced that this group has yet surpassed the evidentiary requirement for moving an article under such deep scrutiny. I will continue to call GF's death a murder in my own speech, but this encyclopedia's responsibility is not only to avoid activism, but to avoid the appearance of activism. It's not pleasant and it doesn't make me feel good, but it's the right thing to do to oppose. [[User:Rvanarsdale|Rvanarsdale]] ([[User talk:Rvanarsdale|talk]]) 06:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 457 => '*<s>'''Strong Support'''</s> '''SNOW Support''' And wait for clearer evidence before moving to [[Murder of George Floyd]]. If a man has his knee on another man's neck while the second man is screaming for help while gasping for breath, and then the second man dies of a heart failure, it's beyond dispute that he was killed. Intent is not important. Calling 'Death' a neutral term at this point is an absurdly shallow reading of the situation. Innocent until proven guilty can apply to murder, but not to killing, because killing is not necessarily a criminal charge. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 07:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 458 => '::Changed to SNOW support after the independent autopsy reported homicide, which renders most of this discussion moot now. Suggest we close this as soon as possible. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 459 => '*'''Strong support''' Look at the [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]]. There are other articles which start with "killing of," although for some reason the word is avoided when it comes to killing by the police. Perhaps we should also be looking at renaming other articles in which people were killed by police officers. "Death" may seem more neutral in tone, but in actuality it is not neutral in that it de-emphasizes the role which Derek Chauvin played in killing George Floyd. Killing is more accurate. [[User:Arumdaum|Arumdaum]] ([[User talk:Arumdaum|talk]]) 10:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 460 => '::{{u|Arumdaum}} You need to explain why using death "de-emphasizes" Chauvin's role. I wouldn't cite Harlins article for precedent for this article. Harlins case has already run its course with convictions and official reports. At this time, we don't fully know Chauvin's role in Floyd's death; I think it's safe to say he had a significant role, but under [[WP:OR]] its not up to us its up to reliable sources. Yes a lot of reliable media sources are saying this is a killing, but some other media sources and some official reports like the autopsy don't say killing they emphasize his health conditions and possible intoxicants. Therefore, under [[WP:NPOV]] we need to balance out these two opinions out. Most importantly, what I'm trying to say is that, especially right now, Floyds death being considered a killing is disputed among credible, and it's not wikipedia job to pick a side. Now, maybe later on after everything is said in done we can have this discussion again. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 17:46, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 461 => '*'''Support''' sanitized wording is not "neutrality", it is just whitewashing. We are not here to cater to people's feelings, we are here to present facts. He was killed. --[[User:Calthinus|Calthinus]] ([[User talk:Calthinus|talk]]) 14:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 462 => '*'''Strong oppose''' We need to stick with Wikipedia's convention of using "Death of" to stick to one our strongest principles of NPOV. I know many people have strong emotions about this article, but using Wikipedia to make a point is not the answer. There is nothing encyclopedic about changing the title to "Killing." It's a political statement that Wikipedia should be avoiding as much as possible. [[User:Angryapathy|Angryapathy]] ([[User talk:Angryapathy|talk]]) 18:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 463 => '', 464 => '*'''Support''' — "Killing of..." killing is defined as "an act of causing death". WHERE IS THE CONTROVERSY? George Floyd wouldn't have died if the police officer hadn't kneeled on his neck for 9 minutes. "Killing of..." we already know it - whatever health conditions he might have had, he wouldn't have died if the police officer hadn't kneeled on his neck for 8minutes 46 seconds where is the controversy?? [[User:Holaholahulahop|—Holaholahulahop]]', 465 => '*'''Support''' See [[List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, May 2020]] where George Floyd is listed. See also [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]] and [[Killing of Peter Fechter]]. [[User:Tvc 15|Tvc 15]] ([[User talk:Tvc 15|talk]]) 20:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 466 => '*'''Oppose''' as non-neutral and potentially incendiary. We are '''required by policy''' to maintain a neutral point of view, and while there is any non-trivial question about whether it's a "killing/murder" or "accidental death" or what have you, we need to absolutely remain neutral, period. I understand there is a lot of emotion surrounding this, and for good cause, I think. However, we must stay encyclopedic. Once all investigations are complete, and the dust has settled, then would be an appropriate time to consider a move such as this, but for now it's too soon. [[User:Waggie|Waggie]] ([[User talk:Waggie|talk]]) 21:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 467 => '*'''Support'''. He died from these actions (see offical post-mortem), also support the title "Homicide of George Floyd" as declared by official post-mortem. [[User:Banak|Banak]] ([[User talk:Banak|talk]]) 22:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 468 => '*'''Strong support''' - kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes will kill them. Per vast numbers of reliable sources, this was a killing. Not describing it as such is a dereliction of [[WP:N]]. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 469 => '*'''Strong support''' It's clear to anyone that this was a killing. I'm !supporting now because [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf the official autopsy report] from the county medical examiner has confirmed that this was a homicide. [[User:Davey2116|Davey2116]] ([[User talk:Davey2116|talk]]) 23:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 470 => '* '''Strong Support''' - Floyd's death was not an accident, as quite a few editors have mentioned already. The murder even looks like a reference to the Kaepernick protests from a few years ago [[User:KohrVid|KohrVid]] ([[User talk:KohrVid|talk]]) 23:20, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 471 => '* '''Strong Support''' Adding my voice to the chorus that the evidence has mounted with enough credibility that Floyd's death was a killing, whether intentional or not. Death implies too much passivity or happenstance and doesn't capture the nature of the tragic event. P.S. I would advocate for "Murder of.." but I know how ... conservative the Wiki community is (not politically but editing wise) so this is a reasonable compromise. Anyone who disagrees well... I'll let my Twitter speak on that. [[User:Jccali1214|Jccali1214]] ([[User talk:Jccali1214|talk]]) 00:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 472 => '* '''Strong Support''' I would support it being changed to "killed" because it is absolutely certain that he was killed by a person. "Death" implies that Mr. Floyd died due to natural and/or accidental causes. We know, based on solid evidence, that this is simply not true. If the article ''title'' says he was killed, the title would more accurately summarize the event. [[User:Ravishsingh00724|Ravishsingh00724]] ([[User talk:Ravishsingh00724|talk]])', 473 => '*'''Support''' As per the sourced [https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf autopsy report] and other previously mentioned sources. - [[User:Wiz9999|Wiz9999]] ([[User talk:Wiz9999|talk]]) 01:11, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 474 => '*'''Strong, speedy, and SNOW support''' per WP:BLUESKY and autopsy. There is consensus for this move and it should done immediately. With all due respect, [[WP:NODEADLINE]] is not applicable on this one. I'm strongly tempted to make the move myself. [[User:Feoffer|Feoffer]] ([[User talk:Feoffer|talk]]) 02:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 475 => '*'''Support'''. Wikipedia should err on the side of caution, but the word 'killing' is without intent. The offical manner of death is homocide, that is, killing.[https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf] Therefore I think it is more important to phrase the article as it is reflected in the current official records. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Pabsoluterince|Pabsoluterince]] ([[User talk:Pabsoluterince#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pabsoluterince|contribs]]) 06:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->', 476 => '', 477 => '====Tally====', 478 => '{| class="wikitable"', 479 => '|-', 480 => '! Support !! Oppose', 481 => '|-', 482 => '| 150 || 80', 483 => '|}', 484 => '[Latest update: [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 01:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)]', 485 => '', 486 => '100 For, 63 Against as of 11:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC). There will be errors because of the number of votes feel free to edit it. Note I only looked at bold text or text next to a built point and only in the survey section. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 11:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 487 => '', 488 => ':Is there any robot to tally automatically? --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 489 => '', 490 => ':{{u|RealFakeKim}}, what's this for? Requested moves go for 7 days and it has been 3. Also this is [[WP:NOTVOTE|not a vote]]. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 11:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 491 => ':*An easy way to see what the generally opinion is. '''— [[User:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:darkred; color:white; padding:2px;">RealFakeKim</span>]][[User talk:RealFakeKim|<span style="background:navy; color:white; padding:2px;">T</span>]]''' 13:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 492 => ':::Additionally, the addition of the word "strong" [[WP:STRONG|has no actual bearing]] on the strength of the underlying argument, which is assessed by the editor who closes the discussion and depends on how well-reasoned the arguments are in the context of [[WP:PG|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]], particularly its [[WP:NC|naming conventions]]. [[User:Mz7|Mz7]] ([[User talk:Mz7|talk]]) 17:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 493 => '::::Having said that, polls play a valuable role in Wikipedia: they highight just how misleading polls can be in identifying consensus. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:green">'''''S'''erial''</span>]][[Special:contributions/Serial Number 54129|<sup><span style="color:red;"> '''#'''</span></sup>]] 18:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 494 => ':::::[[User talk:Serial Number 54129|Serial Number]] Does consensus mean you can defy a policy even if that policy isn't changed nor that policy mentions any exception? If yes, what's the point of having policies if people don't need to follow it and saying Wikipedia is not a democracy? Policies are different than guidelines which people can choose not to follow. [[User:Saynotodrugs12|Saynotodrugs12]] ([[User talk:Saynotodrugs12|talk]]) 18:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 495 => '::{{ping|DIYeditor}}This is not a vote-only. There were no pure votes and all votes include a statement. It is a discussion with a "support" or "oppose" at the top, it is you that understand it as a vote. --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 496 => '::{{u|DIYeditor}}: Do you see only votes on this picture? [[File:Talk-Death of George Floyd 20200601.png|500x500px]] No, they all have a reason. --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 497 => '::The title is [[Talk:Death of George Floyd#Survey|"Survey"]], not "Vote". --[[User:Herobrine303|Herobrine303]] ([[User talk:Herobrine303|talk]]) 13:57, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 498 => ':*Updated to show current positions. I removed Strongly Support and Strongly Oppose as they have no bearing on anything, so Support shows all supporting votes and Oppose shows all Opposing. I did this by doing a Ctrl F and subtracting all those that were stricken, or in explanation, or somewhere else on the page. [[User:AlternateHistoryGuy|AlternateHistoryGuy]] ([[User talk:AlternateHistoryGuy|talk]]) 22:42, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 499 => ':*Updated count, it reflects all unambiguous votes so far. (Did not check for duplicate votes, relying on good faith.) [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 01:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 500 => '*'''Comment''' Our policy is [[WP:NPOV]] and the language of murder or killing is not neutral - is not based on facts in evidence, and does not square with our policy. IMO it does not really matter how many editors stomp their feet and demand that this title be changed to something that is not yet established and violates our policy on neutrality. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 14:00, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 501 => '**What is the grounding of neutrality in your opinion? If the majority of reliable sources said that the sky was purple, would we put that on Wikipedia? No, because we are allowed to apply a bit of common sense. The most trustworthy evidence, direct videos of the event, show it to be a killing. To not abide by that bit of common sense would not be neutral. And by the way, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia made by editors. To say that the opinions of editors do not matter as much as a policy guideline is the direct antithesis of what Wikipedia is about. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 16:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 502 => ':::{{ping|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo}} We follow policy on Wikipedia, as we did with [[Death of Eric Garner]] who essentially died in the same manner. Sometimes a closer has to assess opinions expressed by passionate editors and then weigh those opinions against our policy. I am not sure how to respond to your hyperbole regarding the sky is purple, but I got your point. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 17:17, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 503 => '::::{{ping|Lightburst}} Yes, I understand why policy is useful, and why looking at precedents is also useful in deciding what to do. I was using hyperbole to prove my point: policy and precedents are helpful but they should not dictate actions 100% of the time. (I think this is the idea behind [[WP:IAR]].) This is a case where they may be contradicted by common sense, which says that this is at the very least a killing. [[User:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|The Spirit of Oohoowahoo]] ([[User talk:The Spirit of Oohoowahoo|talk]]) 17:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)', 504 => ':'''Oppose''' we should be following the NPOV principles set down by [[Death of Eric Garner]] or [[Death of Kelly Thomas]] etc etc. [[User:Alssa1|Alssa1]] ([[User talk:Alssa1|talk]]) 08:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 505 => '*'''Oppose''' - I think [[WP:NPOV]] should explain this one. Using the words “murder” and “killing” is not neutral. Then again, different political groups use different words to politicize an event like this. [[User:RedRiver660|RedRiver660]] ([[User talk:RedRiver660|talk]]) 14:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 506 => '*'''Strongly Support''' The independent autopsy calls this a homocide, so I think this is safe <ref>https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html</ref> [[User:Syryquil1|Syryquil1]] ([[User talk:Syryquil1|talk]]) 21:18, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 507 => '*'''Support''' following two autopsies that found he was killed. – [[user talk:Anne drew Andrew and Drew|<span style="color:#074">Anne&nbsp;drew</span>]] 23:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 508 => '*'''Oppose''' The police were trying to arrest Floyd, but ended up killing him instead despite bystanders telling one of the officers at the dig to "let him go". '''''[[User:Hansen Sebastian|<span style="color:DD0000">Hansen</span>&nbsp;<span style="color:BBBBBB">Sebastian</span>]]'''''<sup><span style="color:00CCFF">[[user talk:Hansen Sebastian|Talk]]</span></sup> 00:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 509 => '*'''Support''': the official autopsy from the county came out, with cause of death listed as "homicide". --[[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 00:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 510 => '*'''Support''' - since this article is primarily about the events that led to his death, which was caused by another person, and meets the definition of "killing", per reliable sources. [[User:Bneu2013|Bneu2013]] ([[User talk:Bneu2013|talk]]) 01:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 511 => '*'''Oppose''': I think this would go against the previous precedent of other similar articles. It also wouldn't be neutral or unbiased. [[User:Herbfur|Herbfur]] ([[User talk:Herbfur|talk]]) 03:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 512 => '*'''Strong support''' As stated above, there is already precedent in articles such as [[Killing of Latasha Harlins]], for example. The obvious killing is supported by the findings of the independent autopsy report released today. [[User:Buffaboy|<span style="font-weight: bold; color: #002C73;">Buffaboy</span>]] [[User talk:Buffaboy|<sup><span style="font-weight: bold; color: #EDA900; ">talk</span></sup>]] 03:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 513 => '*:Note, though, that in Harlins' case, there was a conviction of the perpetrator for manslaughter. On the other hand, articles like [[Death of Kelly Thomas]] and [[Death of Eric Garner]] which Alssa1 points out above use "Death". The difference between these articles and Harlins' article? In those cases the perpetrators were not tried or convicted. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 09:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 514 => '*'''Strong Support''' Both the public and independent autopsies have concluded that Floyd's death was a homicide and that the direct cause of death was asphyxiation due to the officers kneeling on him. He was killed. The article absolutely must reflect that. [[User:Waterfire|Waterfire]] ([[User talk:Waterfire|talk]]) 03:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 515 => '*'''Support''' - He didn't just die randomly, he was killed. [[User:Koridas|Koridas]] <small>(...[[User talk:Koridas|Puerto Rico for statehood!]])</small> 04:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 516 => '', 517 => '===Discussion=== ', 518 => 'Almost every "oppose" vote argues that a pathology report is needed to ascertain whether Floyd was killed, or implies that "killing" has the same meaning as "murder."', 519 => '*According to the ''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'', the verb "kill" does not necessarily imply intent: {{tq|To put to death; to deprive of life; to slay, slaughter. In early use implying personal agency and the use of a weapon; later, extended to any means or cause which puts an end to life, as an accident, over-work, grief, drink, a disease, etc.}} By contrast, "murder" implies intent: {{tq|To kill (a person) unlawfully, spec. with malice aforethought (in early use often with the additional notion of concealment of the offence); to kill (a person) wickedly, inhumanly, or barbarously.}} Whoever closes this requested move should ignore votes implying that killing and murder are the same, or arguing that a trial and murder conviction are required to rename the article to "killing of..." "To kill" and "to murder" are different verbs in the English language.', 520 => '*I cannot find a reliable source arguing that Floyd may have died from underlying medical conditions unrelated to the officer pressing his knee down on Floyd's neck, while Floyd begged that he was being killed, and while onlookers exclaimed that Floyd was being killed. Can someone find a source making this argument, or is this pure speculation?', 521 => '*Many sources refer both to Floyd's death and to his killing, e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52834685 the BBC], [https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-05-28/biden-trump-issue-very-different-calls-for-justice-in-george-floyd-killing US News], [https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-george-floyd-minneapolis-kass-20200528-6rjhnhggezgotdfiieqvcrcfpy-story.html the Chicago Tribune], [https://www.thecut.com/2020/05/man-pinned-down-by-minneapolis-police-officer-dies.html the Cut], [https://sports.yahoo.com/george-floyd-death-nfl-players-duane-brown-kaepernick-223813104.html Yahoo News], [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/entertainment/george-floyd-ice-cube-trnd/index.html CNN], [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/hundreds-protest-police-death-of-george-floyd-in-minneapolis.html NY Magazine], [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/us-police-officers-fired-rehired-why the Guardian], [https://time.com/5842687/george-floyd-killed-minneapolis-police/ TIME], [https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/pictures-hundreds-demand-justice-george-floyd-200527133305569.html Al Jazeera], [https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/28/univ-of-minnesota-police-dept-george-floyd-death-killing/ TMZ], [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-protests-turn-violent-over-minneapolis-mans-death-while-in-police/ The Globe and Mail], [https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-pictures/minneapolis-george-floyd-protest-police-killing-photos-1005678/ Rolling Stone], [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499899-doj-george-floyd-death-investigation-a-top-priority The Hill], and so forth. At this point "Killing of George Floyd" returns more google hits than "Death of George Floyd."', 522 => 'Arguments that murder and killing are the same, that a pathology report is needed, or that reliable sources don't use this phrase, are all false. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 20:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 523 => '', 524 => '*To be fair, COMMONNAME in RS is split down the middle. There are just as many sources using either title suggested to refer to the incident. This is a very old dispute on Wikipedia, going back years. Here are some examples that I have participated in:', 525 => '**[[Talk:Shooting_of_Ahmaud_Arbery/Archive_5#Requested_move_12_May_2020]]', 526 => '**[[Talk:Shooting_of_Terence_Crutcher#Requested_move_23_November_2019]]', 527 => '**[[Talk:Shooting_of_Atatiana_Jefferson#Requested_move_14_May_2020]]', 528 => ':We may need a bigger RfC to solve this often brought up dispute. <s>While I !voted oppose above,</s> I usually agree with changing these titles to "Killing of". The biggest argument RMs have faced is that there is precedent established by the many "Death of" and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Shooting+of&namespace=0&hideredirects=1 "Shooting of"] article about police involved killings. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 23:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)', 529 => '', 530 => 'I've noticed a shift over the course of this Requested Move from "oppose" to "support". That implies that the facts of the event are still coming out, and this Requested Move was started too quickly. Should this be speedily closed as too soon? [[User:Benica11|Benica11]] ([[User talk:Benica11|talk]]) 00:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 531 => '* Agree with the above. The facts of the case have evolved, which renders many of the initial "opposes" questionable and helps explain why there has been a shift to more support votes. [[User:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:Teal;">Flip</b>]][[Special:Contribs/Flipandflopped|<sup style="color:purple">and</sup>]][[User talk:Flipandflopped|<b style="color:lime">Flopped</b>]] [[Wikipedia:Civility|<b style="color:grey"> ツ</b>]] 02:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 532 => '* Based on the understanding that this is an encyclopedia, dealing with common knowledge, not a work of forensic/scientific nature, I support. It is not an interpretation of a video, it has become common knowledge that it was a killing and its public interest (what legitimates it as encyclopedic interest) is the fact that it was an act of brutal violence, regardless technical scrutiny.', 533 => 'So, if not 'killing of...' then perhaps it would be more clear to express the idea of 'brutal death circumstances of ...' [[User:HM7Me|HM7Me]] ([[User talk:HM7Me|talk]]) 02:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 534 => '*'''Comment''' In other cases, the way the person died is often used in the title, hence "shooting of...". How about [[Suffocation of George Floyd]] as an alternative. Just an idea. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 02:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 535 => '*:{{U|HAL333}} Is there are coroner's report that says he died of suffocation? If that were the case I think we would just go with "killing". Otherwise it's not demonstrated. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 03:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 536 => '*::Anyone with a modicum of medical training or common sense will recognize that digging a knee into someone’s neck for a prolonged period of time will kill them. Hence Floyd’s cries that he was being killed, protests by onlookers that he was being killed, and RS statements and headlines that he was killed. As {{u|GorillaWarfare}} pointed out, we don’t speculate on whether someone died of a heart attack when they were shot to death. And I can’t find a single RS suggesting that Floyd died of some cause unrelated to the knee digging into his neck. There is none. This argument is spurious. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 04:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 537 => '*:::Anyone with a modicum of medical training or common sense will recognize that we do not know what he died of, and will not know until the medical examiner's report is issued. Just as some examples, we don't know if he passed out because is airway was constricted or if it was the arteries, or maybe it was the chest compression. Or maybe he was poisoned. We don't know. All we're doing for now is speculating based on videos--that is not a medical diagnosis. Anyway, it doesn't matter what we think we saw on the video. All that matters is what RSes call it, and I agree with C&C that as of now, RSes are split on the usage. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]]&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[''[[Special:Contributions/Levivich|dubious]] – [[User talk:Levivich|discuss]]'']</sup> 04:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 538 => '*:::{{u|Darouet}} What you or I think is common sense is irrelevant. Frankly, I might get blocked if I said what I thought of the kneeling officer and what he did. Most of the RSs I've seen say "died" rather than "killed" but I haven't analyzed a breakdown by percentage. This is not a case where someone was shot, which I think would have no equivocation in the sources at all - it would be described as "killed" in every source! Instead from what I have seen most of the best sources are cautiously saying he died, responsibly waiting for a cause of death to be determined. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 539 => '*::::When an article covers the "Shooting of John Doe", shooting isn't necessarily the direct cause of death. It might be massive internal bleeding, or a ruptured stomach. Whatever Floy died of directly, suffocation caused it. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 13:30, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 540 => '*:::::There are a variety of ways that he could have died as a result of a knee being on his neck for several minutes, which do not necessarily have anything to do with suffocation. The most likely of those alternatives is blocked bloodflow to the brain --[[User:Gimmethegepgun|Gimmethegepgun]] ([[User talk:Gimmethegepgun|talk]]) 16:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 541 => '*::::::{{u|Darouet}} and {{u|HAL333}} now that an autopsy has been released that indicates it was indeed heart disease and that there are no signs strangulation or suffocation caused it, do you see the problem with the OR assumptions you made? [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 06:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 542 => '*:::::::{{u|DIYeditor}} I do. As I said before, it was just an idea. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">HAL</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 15:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)It seems like the titling of these sorts of articles is currently all over the place, and thus potentially subject to biases. For example, try looking up "prefix:Killing_of", "prefix:Death_of", "prefix:Murder_of", etc. in the search bar. [[User:Loooke|Loooke]] ([[User talk:Loooke|talk]]) 04:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 543 => 'Statement by Hennepin County Medical Examiner on 5/28 [https://www.fox9.com/news/medical-examiner-awaiting-final-lab-results-in-floyd-case-before-making-cause-of-death-ruling]:', 544 => ':{{tq|"The Medical Examiner recognizes the public expectation for timely, accurate, and transparent information release, within the confines of Minnesota law," read the statement released Thursday. "However, the autopsy alone cannot answer all questions germane to the cause and manner of death, and must be interpreted in the context of the pertinent investigative information and informed by the results of laboratory studies."}}', 545 => 'I understand emotions are running high. I understand what the video looks like. I completely understand how the video makes people feel and that it may seem insulting to say we don't know how Floyd died. The fact is, we don't have a reliable source for how he died and the various reliable sources covering this are not consistent in how they describe the events. As soon as a Medical Examiner's report is in calling this a homicide or something equivalent I will support moving this to "Killing of George Floyd". [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 546 => ':Despite what someone said above about medical training, this discussion goes to show what we think we see and what is there are not the same thing. How can it be "suffocation" when the man was speaking? He ''felt'' like he couldn't breathe. He felt like his stomach and everything else hurt. Cleary he's in fear of his life. Kneeling on the man's neck from the back is not actually obstructing the airway through the mouth and nose--that's what suffocation is. What's going here is something else, like pinching nerves and/or an artery, blood flow, etc. We can't be anywhere near as specific as the cause of death. That's interpretation.[[User:ZarhanFastfire|ZarhanFastfire]] ([[User talk:ZarhanFastfire|talk]]) 09:02, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 547 => '::This is completely irrelevant: how does a pinched nerve, blocked blood flow, suffocation, etc. influence the semantic question of whether he was killed? It doesn't. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 21:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 548 => '*{{u| DIYeditor}} Did you see Michael Baden's independent autopsy? He concluded Floyd died of asphyxiation. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px;">'''HAL'''</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">333</span>]] 19:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 549 => 'Why is this a debate, he was killed. When you stick your knee into someone who is on the ground handcuffed and unable to defend himself, it is a murder, however we can’t say that until the police officer is charged. ', 550 => '', 551 => 'In conclusion, it is a killing, so please change the title. ', 552 => '[[Special:Contributions/2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C|2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C]] ([[User talk:2001:8003:20F0:E700:D4FD:EE78:7ACC:898C|talk]]) 06:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 553 => ':The Coroner just ruled that it was not an asphyxiation-caused death. [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-died-police-restraint-combined-health/] [[User:NuclearWizard|Nuke]] ([[User talk:NuclearWizard|talk]]) 22:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 554 => ':::Here is the full report. [https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf] [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 23:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500', 555 => '::And this is why we wait for reliable information instead of rushing into matters haphazardly. [[User:Nihlus|<span style="padding:2px 2px;font-variant:small-caps;color:#000;letter-spacing:-0.5px">'''Nihlus'''</span>]] 22:20, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 556 => ':: That certainly needs to be added to the article. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 22:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 557 => ':: That article explicitly attributes blame to the police officer's actions, all it says is that he wasn't strangled or suffocated in the traditional sense. It doesn't say he would have died anyway, it says the police contributed to his death. [[User:JustLucas|JustLucas (they/them)]] ([[User talk:JustLucas|talk]]) 23:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)', 558 => ':::So if he wouldn't have died ''but for the restraints'', the officer is to "blame"? Being a but-for cause doesn't make you blameworthy. Else, the shop owner was to blame for calling the cops, for without that intervention, the incident would never have occurred. It needs to be shown that what the officer did was culpable.', 559 => ':::For an act to be criminal, you have to show it was unreasonable and (depending on the offence) dangerous. A knee applied with enough force to effectively strangle a man is, obviously, unreasonable and dangerous. But the less force it was applied with, the less likely it was either of those two things. To be clear, I am not saying this is true. I am merely pointing out that it does in fact change things. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 00:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 560 => ':::Now that we have the new autopsy report with the homicide ruling, can we please close this discussion and do the move? [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 561 => '', 562 => ''''Accidentally kill''' https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/nov/29/what-happens-to-your-life-after-you-accidentally-kill-someone', 563 => ''''unintentional killing ''' https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/involuntary-manslaughter-overview.html', 564 => 'No killing does not mean intentional or murder.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 12:14, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 565 => '', 566 => ':*After the release of an initial medical examiner's report, the BBC nevertheless announces in the very first sentence of their article on the topic this morning [https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52857334]:', 567 => '::{{talk quote|Protesters have clashed with police in cities across the US over the '''killing''' of an unarmed African-American man '''at the hands of officers''' in Minneapolis.}}', 568 => '::Agreeing with {{u|Slatersteven}}, {{u|Doc James}}, {{u|NaveenNkadalaveni}}, {{u|MrX}}, {{u|HAL333}}, the ''BBC'', and a now very substantial majority commenting and voting on this RfC. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 13:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 569 => ':::At its core, opposers are arguing that we don't have enough information imply causation at this time, which "killing" most certainly presupposes.I understand that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and that other RS articles have used "killing", but that does not necessarily mean it is the most accurate or neutral term. If/when the coroner confirms that the actions of the officer directly caused the death of the Floyd, I'm game for the move, but until then, I would argue that "death" is the most neutral term we can use at this time. [[User:Elvis2500|Elvis2500]] ([[User talk:Elvis2500|talk]]) 17:15, 30 May 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500', 570 => '*'''Comment''' Now that the autopsy report is out, and we have a charge, some observations.', 571 => '', 572 => '{{quote|The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death. ', 573 => 'The defendant had his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds in total. Two minutes and 53 seconds of this was after Mr. Floyd was non-responsive. '''Police are trained that this type of restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous.'''}}', 574 => '(emphasis added).', 575 => '', 576 => 'I will point out that when referring to the medical situation, the legal principle of [[Eggshell skull]] applies - it's not even a legal defence. But we're not currently debating the legal situation of culpability, but the act of "killing" - which isn't necessarily unlawful. The autopsy suggests against "traumatic asphyxia or strangulation" - but [[Positional asphyxia]] is not discussed. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 13:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 577 => ':Thin-skull rule means that you take your victim as you find them, as it relates to causation and the actus reus. Thin-skull is important as it can defeat the mens rea element. For example, I might slap my neighbour and he might die because I slapped him on his thin skull; but I do not have the intent to cause death or really serious harm (for the English definition of murder). In contrast, if I kill my neighbour by applying enough force to defeat an ordinarily formed skull, I am more likely to have murderous intent. [[User:Perennial Student|Perennial Student]] ([[User talk:Perennial Student|talk]]) 18:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 578 => '', 579 => '::::Let's be clear. The ME has not ruled on a cause of death. The criminal complaint says that "The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation", and states that several factors "likely" contributed to his death. This is not a final determination of causation and we cannot go beyond these '''preliminary''' findings. [[User:Kablammo|Kablammo]] ([[User talk:Kablammo|talk]]) 13:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)', 580 => '', 581 => '*'''Comment''' - I already put my oppose in the survey, but I would like to elaborate on it some. We can't seem to agree fully on what the definition of "killing" is; however, we can at least agree that it means for one person to take the life of another. As of this moment, we don't know fully know if George Floyd was killed by that police officer; according to the autopsy section it doesn't appear clear what killed him. In order to remain fully neutral and stay in accordance with NPOV, we need to only base the title with the available facts. I've noticed a lot of the the supports say something like "the video is clear he was killed by that cop," it's not our place under [[WP:OR]] to decide if Floyd was killed by that officer. Yes some news sources have said that; however, I don't think those sources can be used in this context only official reports like the autopsy and later convictions. At the very least, this move needs to be closed with no consensus until we get all the facts straight. All we know is George Floyd is dead, and the title needs to reflect that fact. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 08:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 582 => '', 583 => '*'''Support'''. I will try to limit this comment to novel arguments—note that I concur with the arguments given above; reliable sources refer to the event as the killing of George Floyd, and it is clear from the video that he was killed. "Death of George Floyd" is not a neutral title. Though it is true that the killing of a man would also be his death, Wikipedia does not exist in a vacuum, and using the term ''death'' when ''killing'' is the more common usage draws attention to itself. The title "Death of George Floyd" seems to take a side on the matter as much as "Killing of George Floyd"; though intended as a neutral description, it is distractingly obvious that the word ''killing'' has been avoided. [[User:Kilopylae|Kilopylae]] ([[User talk:Kilopylae|talk]]) 13:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 584 => ':{{u|Kilopylae}} why is death not a nuetral term? You mentioned that "killing" is what's commonly used by reliable sources, by reliable sources I'm assuming you mean news/media references generally seen as credible. However, under [[WP:NPOV]] we are supposed to balance these often bias media sources with more objective sources let say like the autopsy (in my opinion the autopsy/official reports should trump media sources). A death isn't always natural; therefore, killing or even murder would fall under the term death. Therefore, "death" would please people who think George Floyd was killed and the rather minute amount of people who think he may have died from some natural or other unspecified causes. You can't say that using the term "death" is just as much picking a side as using "killing" because it's not, "death" is a broad term that fits pretty much every criteria. Also, we need to take in account precedent ([[Death of Eric Garner]]). The dictionary and precedent favor "death" as a neutral term over "killing." [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|Iamreallygoodatcheckers]] ([[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|talk]]) 17:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 585 => '::{{u|Iamreallygoodatcheckers}}, autopsies are [[WP:PRIMARY]]. It's not clear that ''The Hennepin County Medical Examiner'' is an '''independent''' source. That very issue has been raised by Mr Floyd's family, who have requested an independent autopsy.', 586 => '::', 587 => '::Ergo placing this questionable primary source above respected secondary sources I think would be a grave mistake. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 588 => '{{dedent}}', 589 => 'And, having just googled the above, I encountered: {{tq|'''An independent autopsy into the death of George Floyd found that his death was a homicide and the unarmed black man died of "asphyxiation from sustained pressure."'''}}<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref> Dedented because I think this is an important development. [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 19:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 590 => '*'''Comment''' the county medical examiner's office just ruled this a homicide. There is not a single source suggesting Floyd died of natural causes, not even fringe sources which should have no bearing anyway. Why is this even still a discussion at this point? [[User:Smartyllama|Smartyllama]] ([[User talk:Smartyllama|talk]]) 22:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 591 => ':: Source<ref> Official post-mortem declares Floyd death homicide https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52886593</ref> (I'm sure there are others...) [[User:Bellezzasolo|<span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2230;</span><span style="color: #00326a">'''Bellezzasolo'''</span><span style="color: #bb9900">&#x2721;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Bellezzasolo|<small>Discuss</small>]] 22:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 592 => '', 593 => ''''Call for change of vote''' Most of the oppose votes above hinged on the fact that from neutrality considerations, we should wait for an autopsy report to indicate that the death was not from natural causes. Now that an independent autopsy has established it was a homicide<ref>{{Cite web|title=Independent autopsy finds George Floyd's death a homicide due to 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure'|url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html|last=CNN|first=Amir Vera|website=CNN|access-date=2020-06-01}}</ref>, I request these members to change their votes to support. I also believe this now falls under [[WP:SNOW]], as it is difficult to argue now in good faith that it's not neutral to call it a killing. [[User:Bubka42|Bubka42]] ([[User talk:Bubka42|talk]]) 23:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)', 594 => ': Both the official autopsy report and pathologists hired by the Floyd family, including former New York chief medical examiner Dr. [[Michael Baden]], conclude that homicide was cause of death.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Stelloh |first1=Tim |title=George Floyd's death ruled a homicide by medical examiner |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/george-floyd-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-n1221431 |website=NBC News |publisher=NBC News Digital |accessdate=2 June 2020}}</ref> Those that argue that we should wait for a jury's verdict are in error, because a jury determines whether a victim of a homicide was in fact murdered in the strictly legal sense (as opposed to, say, an accidental killing). But ''all'' homicide victims are "killed." So all who argued that we should wait for the autopsy should change their votes. ', 595 => ': [[User:Dylanexpert|Dylanexpert]] ([[User talk:Dylanexpert|talk]]) 02:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC) ', 596 => '', 597 => ''''Oppose''' Violates [[WP:MOS]]. [[User:Nightvour|Nightvour]] ([[User talk:Nightvour|talk]]) 01:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 598 => '', 599 => ''''Make the move immediately'''. We like to say There Is No Deadline, but that doesn't really apply here. We have to choose between two titles, and our editors clearly favor "killing" as more befitting for all manner of reasons, particularl in light of filed charges and medical results. [[User:Feoffer|Feoffer]] ([[User talk:Feoffer|talk]]) 02:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 600 => '', 601 => '{{reflist-talk}}', 602 => '', 603 => 'Comment. The Medical Examiner has come to the same ruling of homicide as the private autopsy. [[User:IssaRevol|IssaRevol]] ([[User talk:IssaRevol|talk]]) 04:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 604 => '', 605 => '*'''Support'''. Both autopsies conclude that the death occured because of the neck compression by the law enforcement officer. The only difference is that the medical examiner's office claims that the combination of the neck compression with the underlying health problems caused the death. Also the term "death" doesn't disambiguates whether the death occurred by natural causes or not in contrary with the more clear terms like "killing" and "murder".[https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy cnn] [[User:Gnslps|Gnslps]] ([[User talk:Gnslps|talk]]) 04:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 606 => '', 607 => '*'''Strong Oppose:''' I feel that if we start using the word murder, killed, etc. it can be considered incite full even down the road putting us where we are now in this world. I prefer we stick with Death of as we (as a community have previously done on a lot of these types of articles. If this were to be changed as things kinda boil down to cold water and the country gets a hold on this without affecting BLP and what orange guy in the White House decides to do over the next couple of days or weeks based on his statements on June 1, 2020 I feel we need to leave this at Death of for the time being. This is also still an ongoing investigation so there will be other things that come into play I’m sure. [[Special:Contributions/2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3|2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3]] ([[User talk:2600:8801:C500:160:DCE6:1063:6089:E5D3|talk]]) 08:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 608 => '*'''Comment''' - I'm legitimately interested to know what a move for this article would mean for the [[Death of Eric Garner]] article, then, since the two cases are extremely similar. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 08:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 609 => '* '''Oppose''' Just see the Blacl Lives Matter-template See below): except for the [[Murder of Botham Jean]], every victim has a ''Death of X'' or a ''Shooting of X''-article. This case is not special enough to break this consistancy. [[User:Jeff5102|Jeff5102]] ([[User talk:Jeff5102|talk]]) 08:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 610 => '* '''Strong support''' if after charges/convictions are made, but Derek literally killed George Floyd. The video footage clearly demonstrates that. One person said "video" is a piece of indispensable evidence, and can be seen by many. [[User:ROBLOXGamingDavid|ROBLOXGamingDavid]] ([[User talk:ROBLOXGamingDavid|talk]]) 09:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 611 => '{{Black Lives Matter}}', 612 => '* '''Oppose''' [[Death of Eric Garner]] and [[Death of Jonny Gammage]] were both asphyxiated by police, both were labeled homicide by the coroner. These 3 cases are exactly the same. Everybody seems to be ignoring these examples when they are mentioned. Are we going to change those articles as well? [[User:Dkspartan1835|Dkspartan1835]] ([[User talk:Dkspartan1835|talk]]) 09:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 613 => '', 614 => 'Yes. Change those articles as well. Homicide is synonymous with killing, let Wikipedia say things as it is. [[User:Phonehead|Phonehead]] ([[User talk:Phonehead|talk]]) 09:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)', 615 => '{{cob}}', 616 => '{{rm bottom}}' ]
All external links added in the edit (added_links)
[ 0 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/george-floyd-killing-minneapolis-protest-police', 1 => '//www.worldcat.org/issn/0261-3077', 2 => 'https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/26/fbi-investigate-death-black-man-pinned-white-police-officer/', 3 => '//www.worldcat.org/issn/0307-1235', 4 => 'https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52817097', 5 => 'https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html', 6 => 'https://www.vox.com/2020/5/31/21276049/derek-chauvin-tou-thao-kueng-lane-officers-george-floyd-what-we-know', 7 => 'https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/george-floyd-death-live-updates-protests-erupt-200529124843031.html', 8 => 'https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/us-cop-taken-into-custody-over-death-of-black-man-that-caused-widespread-anger-2237530?pfrom=home-bigstory', 9 => 'https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25910&LangID=E', 10 => 'https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/george-floyd-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-n1221431', 11 => 'https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52886593', 12 => 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMN35n4UVSA&bpctr=1591106067', 13 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-who-was-he-his-friends-words', 14 => 'https://unicornriot.ninja/2020/minneapolis-police-murder-handcuffed-man-with-neck-kneel/', 15 => 'https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/26/george-floyd-minneapolis-police-officers-fired-after-public-backlash/5263193002/', 16 => 'https://www.ctinsider.com/local/greenwichtime/article/The-Mother-Lode-As-he-lay-dying-George-Floyd-15315226.php', 17 => 'https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22killing+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d', 18 => 'https://www.google.com/search?q=allintitle:++%22death+of+george+floyd%22&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&tbs=qdr:d', 19 => 'https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/27/us/lebron-james-george-floyd-spt-trnd/index.html', 20 => 'https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-pictures/minneapolis-george-floyd-protest-police-killing-photos-1005678/', 21 => 'https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52857334', 22 => 'https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-investigation.html', 23 => 'https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-died-police-restraint-combined-health/', 24 => 'https://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/what-will-investigators-look-for-in-the-death-of-george-floyd-J7t5d8sJDN5wPQH1/', 25 => 'https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/killing', 26 => 'https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/killing', 27 => 'https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/demonstrators-rally-over-death-of-george-floyd-who-died-in-police-custody/2020/05/26/fb67a961-aed3-4173-bdd8-7b230abb105a_video.html', 28 => 'https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-death-of-george-floyd-in-context', 29 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/gallery/2020/may/27/protests-in-minneapolis-over-death-of-george-floyd-after-arrest-in-pictures', 30 => 'https://www.npr.org/2020/05/27/863422803/how-minneapolis-communities-react-to-george-floyds-death?t=1590661206106', 31 => 'https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/us/george-floyd-minneapolis-death.html', 32 => 'https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+-%22killing%22', 33 => 'https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=george+floyd+%22killing%22', 34 => 'https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52886593', 35 => 'https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html', 36 => 'https://indianexpress.com/article/world/family-autopsy-floyd-asphyxiated-by-sustained-pressure-6438843/', 37 => 'https://news.sky.com/story/live-protests-continue-across-us-following-death-of-george-floyd-11998933', 38 => 'https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/california-george-floyd-protests.html', 39 => 'https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-protests-george-floyd-laquan-mcdonald-police-deaths-20200602-rois6ifmpbh2nm4wt5vrhcvyrm-story.html', 40 => 'https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-floyds-death-was-a-homicide-according-to-two-autopsies/2020/06/01/1d5b313a-a43b-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html', 41 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/27/george-floyd-sister-police-officers-should-be-charged-with-murder', 42 => 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSm0Nuqomg&t=55', 43 => 'http://mncourts.gov/media/StateofMinnesotavDerekChauvin.aspx', 44 => 'https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-usa-congress/house-democrats-demand-probes-of-police-killings-of-black-americans-idUKKBN2343LR?il=0', 45 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/george-floyd-killing-officers-derek-chauvin-tou-thao-investigated', 46 => 'https://www.dw.com/en/un-condemns-us-police-killing-of-george-floyd/a-53608812', 47 => 'https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52845796', 48 => 'https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-thursday/index.html', 49 => 'https://news.sky.com/story/george-floyd-death-minneapolis-police-station-set-on-fire-during-protests-as-trump-attacks-thugs-11996574', 50 => 'https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/us/knee-neck-george-floyd-death.html', 51 => 'https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/', 52 => 'https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/george-floyd-death-protests-us-pictures/concern-anger-george-floyds-death-spread-around-country/', 53 => 'https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/29/george-floyd-minneapolis-protests-live-updates//', 54 => 'https://www.foxnews.com/media/laura-ingraham-minneapolis-riots-george-floyd-death', 55 => 'https://www.foxnews.com/media/trey-gowdy-george-floyd-death-national-conversation', 56 => 'https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/05/28/george-floyd-foxs-sean-hannity-criticizes-minneapolis-police/5281078002/', 57 => 'https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499923-george-floyd-showed-no-signs-of-life-by-the-time-first-responders', 58 => 'https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-28/george-floyd-police-chiefs-criminal-justice-reform', 59 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames', 60 => 'https://www.cbsnews.com/live/video/20200529180421-more-on-the-fallout-from-the-killing-of-george-floyd/', 61 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2020/may/29/george-floyd-killing-protests-minneapolis-minnesota-us-twitter-donald-trump-latest-news-live?page=with:block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0#block-5ed14f748f08f5e3730111a0', 62 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/30/george-floyd-protests-latest-at-a-glance-white-house', 63 => 'https://fox40.com/news/local-news/protests-of-solidarity-surround-state-capitol-in-wake-of-george-floyd-killing/', 64 => 'https://www.politico.com/video/2020/05/30/nationwide-protest-erupt-over-the-killing-of-george-floyd-076463', 65 => 'https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/george-floyd-killing-highlights-toxic-police-culture-84119621866', 66 => 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'https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/hundreds-protest-police-death-of-george-floyd-in-minneapolis.html', 74 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/us-police-officers-fired-rehired-why', 75 => 'https://time.com/5842687/george-floyd-killed-minneapolis-police/', 76 => 'https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/pictures-hundreds-demand-justice-george-floyd-200527133305569.html', 77 => 'https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/28/univ-of-minnesota-police-dept-george-floyd-death-killing/', 78 => 'https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-protests-turn-violent-over-minneapolis-mans-death-while-in-police/', 79 => 'https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499899-doj-george-floyd-death-investigation-a-top-priority', 80 => 'https://www.fox9.com/news/medical-examiner-awaiting-final-lab-results-in-floyd-case-before-making-cause-of-death-ruling', 81 => 'https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf', 82 => 'https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy', 83 => 'https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936', 84 => 'https://www.axios.com/george-floyd-police-officer-in-custody-080da82e-9262-47fd-a52c-3ef7421adb10.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR3IHDzPMJwi5Oobg6p4z_DkbYnoujgV5UteWUafnkdNWdxGDK4fzf-9U2E', 85 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/nov/29/what-happens-to-your-life-after-you-accidentally-kill-someone', 86 => 'https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/involuntary-manslaughter-overview.html' ]
All external links in the new text (all_links)
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'https://www.foxnews.com/media/trey-gowdy-george-floyd-death-national-conversation', 61 => 'https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/05/28/george-floyd-foxs-sean-hannity-criticizes-minneapolis-police/5281078002/', 62 => 'https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/499923-george-floyd-showed-no-signs-of-life-by-the-time-first-responders', 63 => 'https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-28/george-floyd-police-chiefs-criminal-justice-reform', 64 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/minneapolis-george-floyd-police-killing-flames', 65 => 'https://www.cbsnews.com/live/video/20200529180421-more-on-the-fallout-from-the-killing-of-george-floyd/', 66 => 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'https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-05-28/biden-trump-issue-very-different-calls-for-justice-in-george-floyd-killing', 74 => 'https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-george-floyd-minneapolis-kass-20200528-6rjhnhggezgotdfiieqvcrcfpy-story.html', 75 => 'https://www.thecut.com/2020/05/man-pinned-down-by-minneapolis-police-officer-dies.html', 76 => 'https://sports.yahoo.com/george-floyd-death-nfl-players-duane-brown-kaepernick-223813104.html', 77 => 'https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/entertainment/george-floyd-ice-cube-trnd/index.html', 78 => 'https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/hundreds-protest-police-death-of-george-floyd-in-minneapolis.html', 79 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/28/us-police-officers-fired-rehired-why', 80 => 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Links in the page, before the edit (old_links)
[ 0 => 'https://apnews.com/5300d052a24cc050aabe9b370f865e56', 1 => 'https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf', 2 => 'https://globalnews.ca/news/7006850/trump-george-floyd-protesters/', 3 => 'https://unicornriot.ninja/2020/new-footage-reveals-moments-before-george-floyds-death/', 4 => 'https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8368215/George-Floyd-911-call-Store-clerk-claims-awfully-drunk-not-control-himself.html', 5 => 'https://www.fox9.com/news/4-minneapolis-police-officers-fired-following-death-of-george-floyd-in-police-custody', 6 => 'https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/politics/trump-governors.html', 7 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/30/trump-secret-service-george-floyd-protesters-white-house', 8 => 'https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-claims-protesters-in-dc-risked-facing-vicious-dogs/', 9 => 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPK4OBcG1-4' ]
Whether or not the change was made through a Tor exit node (tor_exit_node)
false
Unix timestamp of change (timestamp)
1591276395
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/26921991"