Talk:History of the Jews in Poland

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2018 and 4 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): George1738 (article contribs). Template:V0.5

While most Polish Jews were neutral to the idea of a Polish state

Some Jews supported Western Ukrianians or Lithuanians. Greater Poland (Posen) Jews were Germanised and some of them emigrated to Germany.Xx236 (talk) 08:45, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Postwar Antisemitism

I was thinking about adding more information under the subsection labeled "Postwar Period". I want to discuss the animosity aimed at Jewish Poles by their fellow Poles which are tangibly seen through violence, property seizure, and systematic discrimination within the government. I am aiming to add this at the end of the subsection as there are a few sentences touching upon the subject I would like to expand upon. The source I will be using is a chapter from Jan Gross' work, Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz: An Essay in Historical Interpretation. The chapter is titled "The Unwelcoming of Jewish Survivors." Jan Gross is a strong, credible source as he is a history professor at Princeton and has been cited in this Wiki article already.

The violence I intend to write about include both assault and murder, in which members of the community knew who the murderers were, but turned a blind eye. In response, Jews in Poland requested aid from the Ministry of Public Administration as well as the Ministry of Public Security through the murders of Jewish Poles.

An effect, and sometimes motive, of the killing of Jews in Poland was the property they owned. Anti-Semitic Poles benefited since they rid their local communities of Jews. In addition, lower-class/poor Poles benefited from the murdering and fleeing of Jews as it opened up more employment opportunities as well as property available. The government would take "abandoned" property ranging from synagogues to homes and distributing it among the remaining Polish population.

Lastly, I would like to address is the government's actions that discriminated Jews. An example of this is seen through the rejection of Jews as of Polish nationality due to many records and evidence being burnt or destroyed during the Holocaust. Bias in the government was present in the social infrastructure through employment discrimination and the education system.

If anybody would like to comment on my proposed changes, please let me know on this Talk page or my Talk page! Thank you.

rGeorge1738 (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

It is certainly a good point that the current article glosses over those points, some expansions along the lines you proposed is very much needed. Please note we do have a reasonably decent subarticle on that: Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946, which may give you further sources / ideas what to incorporate here. Finally, keep in mind that while Gross' Fear is a reliable source, it has been described by some scholars as non-neutral (check the article on the book itself for reviews). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Postwar? The war finished in UK and France, but not in Poland.

First you have to define when the war finished in Poland. Certainly not in 1945. See Anti-communist resistance in Poland (1944–1946) but in the text and up until 1953.

Second - Professor Marcin Zaremba describes situation in Poland in his book [1]. The book describes terrible conditions in Poland and sources of anti-Semitism in the Communist army and police.

Third - Gross' book has been criticized, so you are oblidged to read the critics rather than impose his opinions.

Lastly, I would like to address is the government's actions that discriminated Jews. - are you aware the structure of the government in Poland? Are you aware that several Polish leaders were Jewish - Berman, Minc, Zambrowski? They allowed the Jews to emigrate at the time when ethnic Poles were killed at the borders.

Bias in the government was present in the social infrastructure through employment discrimination and the education system. - the Communists discriminated pre-war educated people. They constructed a Communist education system, which persecuted Polish nationalists. Do you meam Jewish religious schools? The Communists fought any religion, mainly the RC Church as the strongest one.

The real conflict existed in formerly German lands, where the Jews wanted to create an autonomy, eg. in Lower Silesia, and the Communists didn't allow it.[2]

Everything was nationalised, not only Jewish businesses. Landowners were not only disposessed but also expelled from their homelands.

Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Expansion would be DUE. Gross is generally a top-notch source - considered to be on of the best in his generation by most scholars - criticism of his work is mainly limited to Polish media and nationalists - while widely accepted by mainstream academia. Icewhiz (talk) 07:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz, please learn the subject and return.

Gross isn't even a historian, he was a sociologist, now retired. His main work The Neighbours isn't academic, it's rather a morality essay. Gross wasn't interested in basic facts like the number of Jewish victims in Jedwabne. The book misinfoms - there were many pogroms in the region, some of them more obvious than Jedwabne, please read Anna Bikont. The 1941 pogroms consisted maybe 1% of all pogroms in the area Romania-Estonia. Now everyone knows Jedwabne, but ignores Kaunas, Romanian state crimes, Petlura days in Lviv and many, many others, please see [3]. Xx236 (talk) 08:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

This Wikipedia knows the book Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz and lists academic critics of it.Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Paweł Machcewicz, frequently attacked by Polish nationalists, has published a critics of the book [4].Xx236 (talk) 08:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Icewhiz. Gross's Fear is accepted enough by mainstream academia that it can be used as a source for Wikipedia. It's ok that there are critiques too - it doesn't discredit it as a source. Fear garnered far less criticism than Neighbors did. Also, most American scholarship on Polish anti-Semitism has its share of Polish critics - that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used on Wikipedia. As a compromise, George1738, how about adopt Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus's idea - acknowledge that Gross has his critics. The section still deserves to be there. I also agree with Xx236that using the term "government" is fuzzy when some in the government were Jewish. Gross acknowledges that but you don't as much.

In this addition, George1738, please use clean writing (noun-verb agreement!). And some of your statements are oddly discombobulated. E.g. Anti-Semitic Poles benefited since they rid their local communities of Jews - that's an almost anti-Semitic statement; explain why they stood to benefit - because they took over the Jews' property.Chapmansh (talk) 22:45, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Gross is only accepted by Jewish/Israeli media, not the overall mainstream media. One country does not represent entire academia views. It’s evident you’re attwmoting to push your point of views of him and publish them as fact. -2600:1001:B116:91A6:306F:ED57:5BDF:7A1D (talk) 18:30, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• I've moved this below Chapmansh's response, as it was in the middle of their response. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Just to stress the degree to which this is mainstream (outside of very narrow ethno nationalist criticism) - Fear per google scholar has been cited 382 times in an academic setting since being published in 2007 - the amount of citations indicates mainstream acceptance - it would be nearly unthinkable to write an academic journal (mainstream journal) paper on post-war Jews in Poland without citing Fear.Icewhiz (talk) 04:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Icewihiz formulates a very critical opinion of academic mainstream ignorance of Western writers. They don't know the subject, they just copy Fear with all its pros and cons. One should know Zaremba's book. It's interesting that biased books are translated into English, the one isn't, probably not biased enough?Xx236 (talk) 09:12, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Gross' book is best discussed on its talk page, but I agree it is a reliable source - through he does not represent the middle-ground, and an attempt to portray him as such is problematic. He represents a side in the ongoing academic discussion, no less more biased than others mentioned (ex. 'Polish nationalists'). In the middle are scholars who recognize that the neutral take lies in between such extremes. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:39, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• Hi! I'm working with George1738's class and wanted to drop in on this discussion. From what I can see, here are the main concerns brought up so far:

1. Xx236 is disputing the remarks about when the war ended in Poland, as well as the one about the government being biased.
2. The Gross source has been criticized and is viewed as non-neutral by at least some academics.
3. George1738's prospective addition needs to be clarified a bit more.

With this in mind, here are my suggestions for resolution:

1. Any controversial claims will be attributed to the individual making them, unless it's something that is seen as an uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertion per WP:WikiVoice.
2. Additional secondary sources will be used along with the Gross source.
3. George1738's plan is to work on this in his sandbox and will generally cover anti-Jewish violence in Poland under Communist rule. It will discuss the following points:

• The types of and reasons for violence experienced by the Jewish people. This will include reasons/theories put forth by scholars.
• Claims of governmental bias by scholars studying this time period.

If anyone has recommendations for sourcing that would be seen as in the middle, that would be awesome. The student will of course be searching for this as well, but some guidance would be definitely appreciated. George1738, a good starting point for this would be to look at the sourcing in the article on Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946, as well as some of the sourcing already used in the post-war section of this article. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• I also want to stress that the student will only be summarizing any claims or theories posed by scholars in the source material. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:01, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

  I would caution again using Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 as a POV/acceptable source yardstick - that article has severe problems, not least of which is extensive use of a far-right activist/historian, widely accused of antisemitism, designated by the SPLC, who is generally seen as fringe and who has been effectively blacklisted in modt English language journals.Icewhiz (talk) 18:16, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

  And I would caution you against pushing your own personal views and attempting to submit them as fact. You claim that Gross is universally accepted in academia. That is simply not true, he is only seen as such in Israeli/Jewish circles. It’s evident you are just taking what’s from his book and attempting to pass it off as fact whilst ignoring his Anti-Polish bias. There’s a clear reason why he is only seen as a historian in Israel and Canada and not thoughout Central and Eastern Europe. Icewhiz, I recommend you do your research. You have quite a bit to to do. The rhetoric of one people/country does not represent the mainstream/international overall view. -2600:1001:B10D:19D1:CD21:E0C4:D1B4:B681 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:49, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

  Unlike our SPLC designated historian/far-right activist whose mention drew this vitrol, Gross's works are widely cited in English language books and journals. Also in German language (Central Europe usually) for that matter. I am not sure how "Jewish" (or Israeli for that matter) labelling academic authors is relevant, however Gross has been widely cited by non-Jewish authors as can be readily seen by scolling down the rather impressive citation list in google scholar. Criticism of Gross has been limited for the most part to very certain circles in Poland, that carry very little academic weight.Icewhiz (talk) 19:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

  Quoting the alleged Ogień diary isn't academic.Xx236 (talk) 09:35, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• (I'm also Shalor (Wiki Ed), but have switched accounts since this is more general and not specific to the student.) Please remember to assume good faith! The Gross source is pretty widely cited, at least from what I see via Google Scholar, so it doesn't seem like Icewhiz is trying to push a personal agenda offhand. Rather than assuming that any one person has an agenda to skew the coverage to not highlight the views predominantly held in scholarly literature, a good alternative here is to suggest alternative sources that better represent the middle/moderate ground and mainstream views so that they can be discussed. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 19:06, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
• Back to my main account, I'm going to bring up this source at the reliable sources noticeboard since there's so much discussion over this. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:23, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @Shalor (Wiki Ed): I didn't realize this was going to be edited as part of an educational assignment, nice. Regarding your points above. 1) The war ended in 1945, this is hardly disputed by anyone, through anti-communist resistance (see cursed soldiers) continued in Poland for several years. A few scholars etc. occasionally make an argument that for countries occupied by the Soviets the war didn't end, but it is a rhetorical and minority argument; see List of Polish wars for info on post-1945 conflicts. Bottom line, for most Poles, war ended in 1945. For a few, it didn't. 2) Gross is a perfectly reliable source, and can and should be widely used - with the understanding that there are no such things as neutral sources (per WP:NPOV). Gross represents one of the sides in the ongoing debate and some of his findings have been challenged by other reliable historians; I won't bother listing sources critical of him here because we have nice articles about his books which attribute both praise and criticism. Let me stress that I fully support using Gross as a reliable source - I am just cautioning that Gross is not the ultimate and final authority on the subject, he has his biases too. "Additional secondary sources will be used along with the Gross source." is a very good idea. Lastly, when expanding this article (and I agree expansion is needed) please keep WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV in mind, and note that excessive details may be moved to the Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 subarticle. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:30, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

There is an academic book "Civil war or new occupation. Poland after 1944" edited by Ajnenkiel. [5] Xx236 (talk) 09:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Zaremba describes the horrors of the period in his book. He has also criticized one of Gross' books as ignoring the context. The Anti-Jewish violence was one of many. Zaremba quotes an example of plunderning victims of a train accident.[6] The number of Roman Catholics killed in the period was much bigger than the number of killed Jews. Germans and Ukrainians were also killed or mistreated.Xx236 (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I fully agree with everything Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus wrote. I will personally add an additional peer-reviewed secondary source alongside Gross's source, once George1738 makes his additions. The fact that Germans and Ukrainians were killed or mistreated does not discredit Gross's findings or the suggested contributions. Xx236, perhaps consider adding that to German minority in Poland and Ukrainians in Poland, respectively.Chapmansh (talk) 23:46, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry about my Englsih, but it's difficult to summarize a 700 pages book in few lines. The post-war Poland was a terrible place in which everyone was a victim and many were criminals. Describing it as a Post-war antiisemitism is extermely biased and ignorant. Several Communist leaders were Jewish and they were co-responsible for the anarchy and state plundering of everyone, not only of the Jews. Xx236 (talk) 09:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi again all, can I ask that when George1738 makes their contribution, it be left standing for a full day, to give me a chance to bolster it with another secondary source, as per the discussion above. Thanks.Chapmansh (talk) 23:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi again, I added a reference to George1738's contribution, as others asked for. Since the info on violence is now more comprehensive, I made it its own sub-section, and moved into it some existing info on violence from the section Aliya Bet. Thanks!Chapmansh (talk) 22:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

References

in the Politburo of the Polish United Worker's Party

It was the Polish Workers' Party at the beginning.Xx236 (talk) 09:38, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

"Known as paradisus iudaeorum"

This reversion restored text in our voice sourced to a musuem exhibit's description (undated, no author). This exhibit has been widely criticized - e.g. in this collection of works. This term has been described as an antisemitic phantasm,[7] and other sources make clear that while this is accepted terminology by many Poles, most Jews view Poland as one of the most anti-semtic countries,[8] to the point where "conventional wisdom of contemporary Jews, which has it that the terms Pole and anti-Semite are synonymous;".[9] David Engel, in Engel, David. "On Reconciling the Histories of Two Chosen Peoples." The American Historical Review 114.4 (2009): 914-929, enumerates how this notion of "paradisus judaeorum" has been promoted by various Polish historians and state institutions - while being rejected by most in the field. "It was known", perhaps, per actual academic sources as a "Jewish Paradise" by Catholic clergy who found the Jewish relationship with nobles as "offensive".[10]. Other sources abound on how this is at the very least an "exaggeration". I will note the discussion in Template:Did you know nominations/Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews in which the nominator himself struck the suggested hook of "known as". This is clearly a contested term, and we should not be stating this in our own voice. Icewhiz (talk) 10:22, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

"and other sources make clear that while this is accepted terminology by many Poles, most Jews view Poland as one of the most anti-semtic countries" - way to misrepresent sources Icewhiz. Again. The whole freakin' point of that article is that these kinds of stereotypes are wrong. So I'm not sure what your point is.

In a similar manner, the source you provide to claim "it has been widely criticized" also does not support that claim. That's a collection of various thoughts and evaluations on the exhibit, some critical, some positive, some merely reflective. I guess if you're reflexively see only those parts that fit with your POV and miss the rest, it may appear to be that way. But that's your problem, not Wikipedia's.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:29, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

And oh yeah, you also shamelessly misrepresented the Trevor-Roper source by changing wording which was pretty close to the source to some WP:WEASEL version you yourself invented. And there does not appear to be any reason for this change of yours except that, it seems, any text or source which has something even mildly positive to say about Poland, offends you personally.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:32, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

"Contemporary Polish-Jewish relations resemble a vicious circle. On the one hand, most Poles firmly believe that Poland has always been one of the most tolerant countries in the world and that antiSemitism has existed only on the margins of Polish society. As far as they are concerned, there has been no such phenomenon as Polish anti-Semitism, for Poland has always been a true paradisus Judeorum. On the other hand, most Jews, especially those on the American continent and in Western Europe, claim that Poland is one of the most anti Semitic countries in the world. Jews have often shared the former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir's belief that virtually all Poles received their anti-Semitism "with their mothers' milk."" - Piotr Wróbel in [11]. Yes indeed - the view that most Poles are anti-Semites or than Poland was a "true paradisus Judeorum" - are the two polar opposite views here (Wróbel attempting to strike a middle ground) - that doesn't mean we take a highly contested view - paradisus Judeorum - and state it as fact in our voice. Icewhiz (talk) 11:03, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

But we DON'T state that "Poland has always been a true paradisus Judeorum".Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:14, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Also:

"David Engel, in Engel, David. "On Reconciling the Histories of Two Chosen Peoples." The American Historical Review 114.4 (2009): 914-929, enumerates how this notion of "paradisus judaeorum" has been promoted by various Polish historians and state institutions" <-- No, he doesn't.

"while being rejected by most in the field" <-- Nope. He doesn't say that either.

You're once again trying to misrepresent a source.Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:32, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

No - this is a rather basic summary of Engel. Promoting, in wikivoice, a viewpoint described as an "antisemitic phantasm"[12] which is clearly disputed (and covered as a disputed viewpoint by RSes) runs counter to a whole raft of Wikipedia policies (NPOV, V, promotion of fringe material, etc.). Icewhiz (talk) 14:31, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

No, it is not anything like a "basic summary of Engel". For example, provide the part of the Engel article which supports "while being rejected by most in the field". It's just simply not in there. You made it up. And nobodys promoting any "antisemitic phantasm" in Wikivoice or otherwise, so stop insinuating personal attacks. You keep drudging out one cherry picked source by a photographer who went to an exhibition and it didn't quite like it but ... so what?

Provide text from Engel source which actually supports the stuff you're trying to add or stop making stuff up.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

May I suggest a compromise. Icewhiz, your proposed change—"considered by some as a tolerant society"—is simply not supported by the sources. Your focus and chief complaint, however, seem to be the 20th century. The sentence is not about 20th-century Poland but 16th-century Poland. During the centuries in which country after country in Europe expelled the Jews, Poland welcomed them. That's a fact not disputed by any reputable scholar. Yes, things weren't perfect, and many people look at the past with rose-colored glasses, but for centuries Poland was the best place in Europe—perhaps the best place on earth—for the Jews. Poland and Lithuania were the center of the Jewish world for centuries. Things got bad during the 20th century, but it's absurd to rewrite the lead section to conform to your obsession with recent history.

"The sentence is not about 20th-century Poland but 16th-century Poland" - EXACTLY!!! Icewhiz is trying to pull a little bit of false equivocation here. He's pretending, falsely, that the text under dispute makes claims about 20th century Poland, even though he knows damn well that the text is about 16th century Poland. He then trudges out sources about 20th century Poland, misrepresents them in more ways than one, and then pretends that this allows him to remove info about 16th century problem. WP:TENDENTIOUS to a, well, a "T".Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Anyway, my suggestion is that we remove the phrase "Known as paradisus iudaeorum" from the subsequent sentence until the conflict at that article settles, at which time we revisit the question of whether the phrase belongs. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 17:52, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

The origin of the 1606 "paradisus judaeorum" is an antisemitic polemic saying Jews had it "too good". I am OK with your suggested compromise.Icewhiz (talk) 18:30, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

I see no reason to remove it just because Icewhiz manages to engage in disruptive behavior on more than one article at a time. He's wrong about it there. He's wrong about it here. Shrug and move on.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Sources have been provided. We can not say in our voice what some see as an antisemitic phantasm, and when it is clear this Polish POV is opposed by most Jews. Using a much maligned exhibit - Emblematic here is the criticism against one of the most distinguished experts on the history of Jews in Poland in the modern period, Moshe Rosman. He was accused of “Polinizng” the history of Jews in Poland by promoting a false and ideologized version of it with the myth of Poland as a “paradise of tolerance.” The criticism pertaining to the somewhat unfortunate name of the gallery dedicated to the history of Jews in the 16th and 17th centuries (until Khmel-nytsky Uprising), “Paradisus Judeorum,” is justifed. The name “Paradise for Jews” is given without quotation marks there. Visitors to the Museum do not have an opportunity to learn from the exhibition that its title is taken from an anti-Jewish text, which claims that the good living conditions Jews enjoyed in Poland were something that should change (Tokarska-Bakir, 2016, pp. 49–58). - as a source is obscene. "was known" is WP:WEASEL phrasing. To whom was it known as such? Not to Jews in Poland. In the 16th and 17th centuries it was described as such by antisemitic clergy that argued Jews had it "too good" and who saw the Jewish position as offensive to the church.Icewhiz (talk) 01:16, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

" Sources have been provided." - if by that you mean that you added citations which referenced some sources - like for example David Engel - which do NOT say anything like you claim they say, then yeah, I guess so. But here's the thing. It's not enough to "provide sources". The source you provide have to actually say what you claim they say. You made stuff up about David Engel's source. In that source he actually agrees with the description of 16th century Poland as paradisus iudaeorum, although he notes it was an exaggeration. Yet, you've been pretending, falsely and dishonestly, that Engel says the opposite.

Like wise - here you use a false edit summary. No "sources" do not refer to it as an "antisemitic phantasm". ONE, single, cherry picked source, from a photographer refers to it as such. The author is not notable for matters relevant to history. And it's just one source. It is also false that "Other sources clearly assert most Jews disagree with this Polish POV". You're equivocating (and what the fuck is "Polish POV" anyway? is there some manual or something? You are once again engaging in ethnic attacks and giving free rein to your prejudicial proclivities) between the 16th century and 20th century. Yes, I'm sure most Jews, and many Poles don't think of interwar Poland as "paradise for Jews". But that is NOT what the text claims. We are talking about the 16th century! And most sources, including most Jewish ones support this description in some degree (as Malik already informed you).

As for your opinion piece about Polin or the fact that the phrase has its origins in an anti-semitic poem - you do realize that you are trying to (mis)use this source to accuse Jewish organizers of the exhibition of propagating "antisemitic phantasm" (or whatever you call it), right??? And this isn't an article about the Polin exhibit. It's about History of Jews in Poland, including in 16th century. And that phrase, regardless of its origins, came to mean something else over time. That's what happens to phrases over hundreds of years.

Please stop misrepresenting sources. Please stop using false edit summaries. Please stop making shit up.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:41, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

I've reverted per WP:BLPREMOVE, as Engel says nothing of the sort. He quotes Kutrzeba as well as saying that "Kutrzeba and his colleague Franciszek Bujak may have been among the first modern historians to employ the expression seriously as a more or less accurate description of the Jewish situation in old Poland". He does not reach such a conclusion himself - in fact, he provides several opposing views by historians. Icewhiz (talk) 07:34, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Nonsense. Engel says almost EXACTLY this. Indeed, I had trouble writing the sentence in a way which would satisfy a high standard of being true to the source (since I anticipated that you'd come and try to make up some false excuse to remove it) while at the same time not repeating it word for word.

Engel (not Kutrzeba, please stop pretending otherwise!) says in reference to the label that it was a, quote, "more or less accurate description of the Jewish situation in old Poland"

Article text says: "Historians, such as David Engel have described the label paradisus iudaeorum (Latin for "Paradise of the Jews") as a "more or less accurate description of the Jewish situation" in Poland at this time"

This is about as close as you can get to the source without committing copyvio.

Stop making stuff up and using false edit summaries. Stop trying to misrepresent sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:53, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

And again - how many times does it have to be pointed out before you at least acknowledge it - he does not "provide several opposing views by historians" in regard to WHETHER the label was true or not. He does discuss the disagreement between various groups of (Jewish) historians as to whether the fact that it WAS a "paradisus judaeorum" was due to "proclivity of the Polish nation for tolerance or liberty" or due to "mutual advantage stemming from meshing of interests". Neither side disputed - nor does the general literature on the subject - that the term reflect reality of 16th century Poland, even if it employed some hyperbole. This has already been pointed out to you repeatedly, most recently by Malik above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:59, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Only a minority of scholars find this term problematic. That said, it's likely more neutral and clear to use the term "Golden Age of Jews". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

substantially poorer and less integrated than the Jews in most of Western Europe

The phrase is typical for this page - an unexplained detail, out of its hitorical context, poorly sourced.

• This statement is unsourced.
• It's generally true but it suggests that the Poles made the Jews poor and didn't allow them to integrate.
• The Jews were less integrated because of history of Poland - during the division Greater Poland Jews Germanized and Lithuanian Jews Russified. Many Jews were Orthodox, who refused to integrate.
• Polish people were substantially poorer than people in most of Western Europe, because of the above mentioned history of division of Poland. The Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria was one of the poorest regions of Europe.
• The Western Europe included Nazi Germany, with its anti-Semitic legal system. Austria and Czechia were annected by Germany. Xx236 (talk) 10:06, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Aliyah Bet

Is this a correct title for the section? That article states that it was a name for "illegal immigration by Jews, most of whom were Holocaust survivors[1] and refugees from Nazi Germany[2], to Mandatory Palestine between 1934-48". And our article is about Poland. At the very least, this section should be renamed to English (only Jewish historians and history geeks know what Aliyah Bet was). I propose 'Immigration to Israel'. Or 'Immigration to Mandate Palestine', perhaps. Thoughts? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:44, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Aliyah Bet is the COMMONNAME. However our section also describes "A second wave of Jewish emigration (50,000) took place during the liberalization of the Communist regime between 1957 and 1959 (which is not Aliyah Bet - which ended in 1948) and Some Polish Communists of Jewish descent actively participated in the establishment of the communist regim..., For those Polish Jews who remained, the rebuilding of Jewish life in Poland was carried out between October 1944 and 1950 .... - which is not about immigration. Pre-1948 immigration is to Mandatory Palestine (Israel did not exist - nor was it clear that Israel would be the chosen name - it was far from an obvious choice pre-1948 (irony of history - Jews prior to 1948 identified as Palestinians, while Arabs were more likely to subscribe to a pan-Arab (non-local) identity - post-1948 the meaning of Palestinian switched) - not Israel. Post 1948 immigration is to Israel. All this being said, I would retitle the section to 1945-1966 or something similar (since it isn't just immigration). Icewhiz (talk) 13:18, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Polish and Jewish views regarding one another

This article suffers from a framing problem, as Polish Jews redirect here. But as long as it is 'history of', we should stick to history. I have moved Polish and Jewish views about one another to Polish-Jewish relations. It's notable information, but it doesn't belong here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:51, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Even if there is a proper spin-off article, some content should remain here as Polish-Jewish counter-views are obviously relevant to the History of the Jews in Poland (being the two major protagonists in the historical narrative). Icewhiz (talk) 09:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Arthur Rubinstein - UNO

I believe that Rubinstein's 1945 UNO performance deserves to be mentioned.Xx236 (talk) 08:57, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Antisemitism in Poland

Seems like a notable topic that currently just redirects here. This illustrates the problem with this article - a number of 'big issues' redirect here, instead of having their own articles. This is just a history of article. Polish Jews or such is another big topic that begs to be created and has been doing so for years. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:58, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Polish Antisemitism is a major issue in Jewish history in Poland. In any event - significant content would remain here. As long as we don't spin this article off - and they remain merged - historical antisemitism should remain here. Icewhiz (talk) 09:31, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

What about Jewish anti-Polonism/Anti-Christianism? An example:

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/yehuda-bauer-and-laurence-weinbaum-on-polish-jewish-israeli-relations-1.459418

Jonny Daniels is described as an useful idiot. Xx236 (talk) 11:42, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Ann Applebaum defends Poland in a strange way How come this poll didn't include *western* Europe? More Jews murdered in France lately than Poland - but no Jew has been murdered in Poland.Xx236 (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Not sure where you are quoting Applebaum from, but one would have to adjust such rates per the presently (very small) population in Poland (some 3,200 souls in 2016, compared to some 460,000 in France). As for the cited JC source, I'm uncertain what you are referring to, the sole reference (I see) to this there is - "To be sure, certain elements in Poland were delighted to receive this ammunition from those misguided Israelis, as it only reinforced their twisted theories about some visceral Jewish “anti-Polonism” and could be used in their own anti-Jewish screeds." - which refers to twisted theories held by certain Polish elements. Icewhiz (talk) 11:51, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Is it reliable?

http://www.taubephilanthropies.org/files/assets/pdf/2012/Timeline_1000years.pdf Xx236 (talk) 09:11, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

A publication by Taube Foundation for Jewish Life & Culture. Probably ok, but not as good as proper academic research. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:32, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Since 1989

This section is very poor. Of course, writing about modern history is not easy, but I think there are some decent sources out there. At the same time, since Polish-Jewish relations are occasionally (...) controversial, there's lot of biased stuff that we have to be careful on whether to include here. Some of this is related to recent Israel-Polish relations. The main elephant in the room is the discourse on antisemitism in Poland. I strongly recommend that editors interested in the latter issue first help to create this badly needed article instead of using this 'history of' as a POVfork. Now, instead of polemic about how much antisemitism there is in modern Poland (which our discussions too often dance around or turn to), I'd like to ask editors to list good sources that we could use to expand this section. Academic studies of modern, post-1989 community would be best. Neutral international news pieces like [13] are ok, but news<scholarly sources. Government sources like [14] tend to be a bit partisan and POVed. There's a bit content in YIVO on post-1989 but proprtionally, very little: [15]. World Jewish Congress page has some information ([16]) through presumably it gets updated and not archived properly so it is not a stable source. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:12, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Events since 1989 are historical as well, and some content should be here as well. Mainline English sources writing on post-1989 Polish antisemitism are quite obviously relevant to this article - as well as possibly other articles. Icewhiz (talk) 09:32, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

They are unrelevant because of their obvious bias. There are people who instrumentally use antisemitism and other minority issues. Recent research shows that antisemitism exists in Western Europe, rather than in Poland. The only antisemitic attack in Poland was done byt a mentally ill person. Thousands of Israeli citizens ask for Polish citizenship and/or visit Poland. Israeli youth is indoctrinated and terrorised by Israeli guides/bodyguards to prevent informal contacts with Polish youth. Xx236 (talk) 11:36, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

"There are people who instrumentally use antisemitism and other minority issues." Why do I get the feeling that you are justifying the mass deletion of sourced content by expressing your distaste for minorities? Does "these people" refer to Jews? Jonney2000 (talk) 19:13, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I mean people, who "instrumentally use antisemitism and other minority issues' in Poland, in media, politics and academy. Examples I know - Stefan Zgliczyński, Grzegorz Krzywiec. Xx236 (talk) 08:22, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

So - two historians, based in Poland, that subscribe to the mainstream historical view on minorities in Poland? Icewhiz (talk) 08:42, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

What is the 'mainstream historical view on minorities in Poland'? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:18, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

No "people" are perfect and unbiased. Just something to keep in mind. Jewish POV needs to be represented in this article, obviously. But it is still a POV. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:13, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

"People"..... Is far from unbiased. That aside - Polish antisemitism is not a question of POV, but an historical reality (pre and post 1989) - the sole disagreement between mainstream scholars being the extent. WaPo is most certainly not a "Jewish POV". For recentish events - news coverage is often OK, and for events within the past 5 years - often the main available source. Icewhiz (talk) 06:51, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree up to WaPo, because - what is WaPo? I don't get this abbreviation :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:18, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

WaPo is The Washington Post. NYT is The New York Times. WSJ is The Wall Street Journal. BBC, well, they just just go by BBC most of the time (and not The British Broadcasting Corporation) - perhaps their trend will catch on. :-). Icewhiz (talk) 11:50, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

I tentatively agree - with a note that such writing has been and is still missing from this article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Jews who somehow survived the Holocaust often discovered that their homes had been looted or destroyed

• Who looted or destroyed Jewish homes? It was in Poland so a non-Polish reader may belive that only Poles did it. The biggest ghetto (Warsaw) was looted and destroyed by Germans, like many others.
• Sometimes Polish refugees inhabited Jewish homes. German transferred millions of Polish gentiles, both long distance and inside cities. The biggest expulsion was in 1944 from Warsaw, about 500 000.
• Jewish belongings were confiscated by Germany. Looting of Jewish belongings was generally illegal, looters were imprisoned or killed. ~
• Hundreds of thousands of gentile homes were looted or destroied. Xx236 (talk) 08:30, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Polish passports

I'm not sure if the passports are issued to 1968 emigrants only. [17] Xx236 (talk) 11:43, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Recent edits on Postwar Property Restitution

I've reverted as the use of a 1947 primary source is generally unacceptable. More seriously the passage misrepresented a volume edited by Grabowski&Libionka to the point it was libelous towards the cited authors - beyond the drivel pasted into our article from a questionable source, to assign such a summary to Grabowski&Libionka - is mind-boggling. I may of course refer to the 600+ page Polish language tome itself, however for the sake of those that read English, here's a short summary of Grabowski&Libionka: "The book, “Klucze i Kasa” (“Keys and Money”) details the ways in which Poles got rich off Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust – by plundering property that was left behind, charging exorbitant fees for hiding them, and so on. This may be another underlying reason for the Polish perception of Jews as a source of wealth – they literally enriched them. And paradoxically, their guilt feelings over this are being projected onto the Jews."[18]. Icewhiz (talk) 07:07, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

@Galassi: - unless you've actually read and reviewed the allegedly cited sources - I suggest you self revert - the issue here is a misrepresentation of the cited sources (+misuse of a PRIMARY 1947 source). This certainly is not a reasonable summary of the 37 cited pages in Klucze i Kasa. I don't know if you read Polish (and have the Polish book available) - however This Palgrave book is available in English (which we should prefer per WP:NOENG - and is a short summarized chapter. Grabowski&Libionka is much more in-depth (being Poland specific) - but shares the same conclusion. By reverting this content in - after it was challenged as a misrepresentation - you are taking responsibility for WP:Verifying it. Icewhiz (talk) 14:03, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: I do not have access to the sources used, but, in general, the passage does look cherry-picked and presents too rosy a picture in re: Jews in post-war Poland. For example, Yad Vashem has the following:

After the Holocaust, there were tens of thousands of Jewish survivors in Poland, as well as refugees who had returned there from the Soviet Union. On comprehending the enormity of the destruction of Polish Jewry and being confronted with manifestations of antisemitism, which reached their zenith with the Kielce pogrom of July 1946, these Jews decided to move westward to the American-occupied zone, and so they too arrived at the DP camps. In 1947, they were joined by a further wave of Jewish refugees from Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania, and the total number of DP camp inhabitants reached a peak of some 250,000

Source: The Return to Life in the Displaced Persons Camps, 1945-1956. --K.e.coffman (talk) 19:59, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

The topic of Jewish property in Poland after WWII (and up to and including today) deserves a dedicated article. Nonetheless, the content here does not seem extraordinary, through there may be some undue weight issues, and it seems properly referenced (if to offline sources). I do not see sufficient rationale presented for reverting it wholesale, saying that 'it does not seem to fit with the spirit of the source' is hardly a serious argument. At the same time, there may be some synthesis issues when a claim is backed up by ~2 books and a wide range of pages. I'd generally suggest we focus on specific facts or interpretations. Is there something in the added passage that seems plain wrong? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:25, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

@Piotrus: - please provide quotes and translation of said quotes regarding the content you inserted here. Please be specific in terms of page numbers and works used for each bit. Your content has been challenged as a serious misrepresentation - onus on you to prove it is not a misrepresentation.Icewhiz (talk) 03:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:AGF and Wikipedia:Offline sources, I have no reason at this point to believe User:Tatzref made any serious errors in the content he inserted, and I see no reasons for its removal. Unless you have access to the same content and can prove there are issues? (That said, I'd encourage Tatzref to provide us with relevant quotes, if anyone actually challenges specific details of his additions, not that it has happened, as only vague generalities were criticized - that's hardly actionable). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:06, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

You've restored content challenged as a severe misrepresentation without actually verifying? Great. Contrary to said editing MO, I did access several of the sources cited by Tatzref, and stand behind my assertion this is a misrepresentation. I'm not sure how you want me to prove a negative here - some of the stuff isn't based on anything at all in the cited sources. WP:ONUS is on you (as well as all others who have inserted this content) to provide quotations verifying the content, and per WP:NOENG - with a translation please (I'm willing to work off the Polish - most editors in enwiki are not). Icewhiz (talk) 06:38, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

As much of the content failed verification (versus the actual cited sources), and supporters of this content failed (over a period of 2.5 weeks) to quote and translate the sources they were cited (as required per WP:NOENG) I removed and replaced the content with a summary of academic sources, in English, available online. Icewhiz (talk) 12:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

The information about postwar property restitution that Icewhiz reverted as "gross misrepresentation" and "failed verification vs. the cited sources, misused a primary source" and Galassi reverted as TW (defined as "acts of vandalism or unconstructive edits") is based on reliable sources produced by reputable Polish historians (Alina Skibińska, Łukasz Krzyżanowski, Krzysztof Urbański, Adam Kopciowski). These historians carried out research into hundreds of Polish court records for each town that they considered. Alina Skibinska states, in relation to Szczebrzeszyn, that at least one third of the 210 private properties belonging to Jews before the war were returned to their owners or their heirs by 1950, and that almost all of these properties were very quickly sold to Poles (Klucze i kasa, p. 562-563). She goes on to assess the workings of the local municipal court: the vast majority of claims were favorably dealt with; the pace at which this was done was very speedy, as many of the claims were allowed the day they were received or very soon thereafter; the judges very often overlooked deficiencies in the applications (Klucze i kasa, p. 568-569). Moreover, the case study of Szczebrzeszyn confirms and is consistent with the research conducted by historians in relation to other towns (Grzegorz Miernik - Szydlowiec, Łukasz Krzyżanowski - Kalisz & Radom, Adam Kopciowski - Zamosc & Wlodawa). Moreover, it fully accords with the contemporaneous monitoring by Jewish organizations reported in the American Jewish Year Book (1947-1948), a highly reliable source produced by academics. Neither would have had the slightest interest in misrepresenting the situation to the detriment of Jewish Holocaust survivors.

Regarding the case study of property restitution in Szczebrzeszyn Alina Skibińska wrote (at p. 562-563): “Scalenie dostępnych w materiałach archiwalnych informacji o nieruchomości należących przed wojną do Żydow prowadzi do wniosku, że było takich nieruchomości w Szczebrzeszynie ok. 210 (z wyłączeniem należących do gminy). Wszystkie te liczby świadczą o tym, że przynajmniej jedna trzecia spośród nich została właścicielom, ich spadkobiercom lub innym osobom za takowe się podającym do roku 1950 zwrócona. Wszystkie te nieruchomości (z kilkoma wyjątkami) w bardzo krótkim czasie sprzedano Polakom, bardzo często tym samym, którzy już je zajmowali.” GOOGLE TRANSLATION (with adjustments): “The merger of information about real estate owned by the Jews before the war in the archives leads to the conclusion that there were about 210 real estates in Szczebrzeszyn (excluding those belonging to the commune). All these figures indicate that at least one-third of them became [were returned to] owners, their heirs or other persons [REMOVE: for such repayments until] [by] 1950. All these properties (with a few exceptions) were sold to the Poles in a very short time, very often to the same ones who already occupied them.”

Regarding the court process Alina Skibińska wrote (at p. 568-569): “Oceniając więc postawę obu sędziów Sądu Grodzkiego w Szczebrzeszynie, należy brać pod uwagę nie tylko wyroki przez nich wydawane, a te były w zdecydowanej większości pozytywne dla wnioskodawców, lecz także tempo, w jakim sprawy rozpatrywali. Wielokrotnie data rozprawy wyznaczana była na ten sam dzień, w którym wniosek wpłynął, lub na termin bardzo nieodległy, co świadczy o przychylności tych sędziów, nie utrudniali bowiem proceduralnie spraw majątkowych. Wyroki zapadły z reguły jeszcze w dniu roprawy, uprawomocniały się po kilku tygodniach lub miesiącach. Obaj sędziowie brdzo często przymykali oko na nieścisłosci lub drobniejsze sprzeczności dowodowe, nie można w ich decyzjach dopatrywać się złej woli.” GOOGLE TRANSLATION (with adjustments): “In assessing the attitude of both Judges of the Grodzki [municipal] Court in Szczebrzeszyn, one should take into account not only the judgments passed by them, and these were mostly positive for the applicants, but also the pace at which they were considered. Repeatedly, the date of the hearing was set on the same day as the application, or on a very short date, which proves the favor [favourable disposition] of these judges, because they did not obstruct property matters in a procedural way. The verdicts were usually passed on the day of the abscess [the case was heard], they became stronger [legalized] after a few weeks or months. Both judges very often turned a blind eye to inaccuracies or minor contradictions of evidence, one cannot see evil decisions [bad faith] in their decisions.”

Regarding case studies for other towns (at. P. 171): “Przykład Szczebrzeszyna w odniesieniu do losów “mienia opuszczonego” wydaje się typowy. Świadczą o tym zarówno badania Grzegorza Miernika, Łukasza Krzyżanowskiego, Adama Kopciowskiego. Ten ostatni zauważa, a jego wniosek potwierdzają również moje badania, “że choć odzyskiwanie utraconego w czasie wojny mienia wiązało się z ogromnym ryzykiem, stosunkowo wielu Żydom udało się je odzyskać”.” GOOGLE TRANSLATION (with adjustments): The example of Szczebrzeszyn regarding the fate of “abandoned property” seems typical. This is evidenced by the research of Grzegorz Miernik, Łukasz Krzyżanowski and Adam Kopciowski. The latter notes, and his conclusion is also confirmed by my research, "that although the recovery of property lost during the war was associated with enormous risk, relatively many Jews managed to recover it." Tatzref (talk) 00:19, 21 April 2019 (UTC) Tatzref (talk) 01:43, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

I neglected to mention what I pointed out in another post. The text that Icewhiz substituted for mine relies on publications of poor quality with no sources cited for the relevant claims (Laurence Weinbaum's article in The Plunder of Jewish Property during the Holocaust), publications that do not deal with court records with respect to property claims (Michael Meng, Shattered Spaces), or publications that refer to selected court records but do not undertake a systematic investigation of any one town (Cichopek-Gajraj, Beyond Violence -- the author admits she has no statistics). They then make sweeping generalizations that the scholarship which extensively canvases court records does not support. Additional comments will be provided with respect to other unfounded claims.Tatzref (talk) 03:09, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the quotes. I think the Klucze i kasa source is reliable and can be used. But I'll note that the reverted text ([19]) is not exactly the same one as discussed here (ex. here we talk about the town of Szczebrzeszyn, not mentioned in the talk). Still, I see nothing particularly wrong with most of that text, through the another part of it is based on another source (still seems reliable): Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed, for example, more than 520 properties were reclaimed in two county towns of Lublin province alone (281 applications in Zamość, and 240 in Włodawa - some applications involved multiple properties).<ref name="Kopciowski">Adam Kopciowski. ''Zagłada Żydów w Zamościu'' (Lublin: Wydawnictwo Uniwersytetu Marii Curie-Skłodowskiej, 2005), 203; Adam Kopciowski, "Anti-Jewish Incidents in the Lublin Region in the Early Years after World War II," ''Holocaust: Studies and Materials'' vol. 1 (2008), 188.</ref> Through I actually like what is mentioned here, on the talk page, better, as Kopciowski just gives numbers and the Szczebrzeszyn text quoted here gives proportions. Once we have a subarticle, I think Kopciowski should be moved there. I also don't think the ending part is necessary (Given the lax criteria, there were a number of cases of Jews advancing fraudulent property claims.<ref>Paweł Machcewicz and Krzysztof Persak, eds. ''Wokół Jedwabnego'' (Warsaw: Instytut Pamięci Narodowej—Komisja Ścigania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu, 2002) vol. 1, 379–387.</ref>) - it seems undue here and as I believe I mentioned at some earlier point, I am sure some Poles were involved in this too, so what's the point of this sentence? I can think of any good reason to have this in our overview here (but as I also said, a dedicated subarticle on Jewish property in Poland is needed, and we can go into more detail there). As for the The American Jewish Year Book reported, at the time, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.”<ref name="American Jewish Year Book">American Jewish Year Book, 5708 (1947–1948), vol. 49 (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1947), 390.</ref> , while this is an old source, I think it is attributed properly, and I see no reason to ignore it.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:39, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOENG is policy - we have better English language sources - we generally prefer secondary academic sources in English (for which there is no lack, to say the least, on this topic). The Jewish Year Book, relating to 1947-8 and written in 1948, is a PRIMARY source - and contains two rather big BUTS (no under state control and direct-descendant heir (owner, son)) - which basically prevented the vast majority of Jews to even file a claim. As for the text itself - what was returned here was a gross misrepresentation. The quotations above support, at best, local anecdotes (number of cases in specific courts, attitude of very specific judes) - nothing more. Beyond being factually incorrect in "The restitution law in effect from May 1945 until the end of 1948" (as the 1945 decree was annulled and replace with another decree in 1946) nothing in the quotes (and WP:OR) above supports "Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed" (and I'll note that the number of court cases may be larger than claimants (multiple claims) and that many court cases were fraudulent (a matter actually made clear in "Klucze i Kasa") - in which property was not returned to actual owners), as well as misstating the severe difficulties Jews faced with attempting to claim property.Icewhiz (talk) 09:46, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

NOENG only states that if we have equivalent sources, English are preferred. Tatzref made a point above about them not being equivalent, as in Polish sources are better referenced, while English sources you cite are tertiary ones and less accurate. So in this case it seems to me he is winning the argument here. I do agree, however, that I'd like to see what the Klucze... text has to say about the 1945, 1948, and such, as I agree there're possibly some issues related to translation, etc. A while ago I wrote the nationalization in Poland article, and the text added here might contradict what is there - perhaps it's a translation issue. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:48, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

No, the cited Polish language sources are mainly microhistories - referring to very small and specific areas (e.g. one town), and incidentally some are by rather obscure publishers and authors - they also have very low citation counts. We have reputable English sources here - top-notch publishers - and with references incidentally - not sure where that claim is coming from. More importantly - the English language sources are referring to Poland as a whole - as opposed to shenanigans in a particular courthouse. Furthermore, the text Tatzref is proposing is not supported by the anecdotes he is citing.Icewhiz (talk) 12:02, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with microhistories if reliable sources use them for generalization. At least in this case we know the source for generalizations, unlike from your 'reputable English sources' which as Tatzref noted just make sweeping statement with no references. When Alina Skibinska of Polish Center for Holocaust Research writes "Przykład Szczebrzeszyna w odniesieniu do losów “mienia opuszczonego” wydaje się typowy", she is certainly a RS that can be quoted here. Or do you think she is not a reliable scholar for those issues? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:03, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Skibinska, one should note, says property returned to "owners, their heirs or other persons" and "were sold to the Poles in a very short time" (usually those occupying) - she doesn't make a definitive statement on what was returned and to whom. As for the English language sources - they all are extensively referenced - including Weinbaum. Tatzref's claim that English language sources ignore Polish communist court transcripts? While such microhistories are of some value, the value (and standards of justice) of post-war Polish communist court transcripts is generally seen as dubious - and it is far from surprising that many sources heed them little notice. That these are largely ignored by well-cited and received book (e.g. Meng's Shattered spaces published in 2011 has 78 citations) - is an indication we should ignore anecdotal locale-specific evidence as well. Icewhiz (talk) 14:18, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

It is obvious that there is no "gross misrepresentation" going on in my edits, as alleged by Icewhiz, and that my sources are far more authoritative than his. The historians I cited, all of them reputable, have carried out extensive research on this topic in several localities. Alina Skibinska, of the Polish Holocaust Center/Centrum Badan nad Zaglada, with which Jan Grabowski is associated, admits that the state of the research shows a consistent pattern and that "relatively many" Jews were able to recover their property. Neither Laurence Weinbaum nor Michael Meng carried out any research nor do they provide any source regarding the actual functioning of the property restitution regime. Cichopek-Gajraj admits she has no statistics, even though Miernik, Urbanski and Kopciowski all published the outcome of their research well before she published her book. Generalizations without supporting scholarship or research does not outweigh a consistent pattern that emerges from a series of scholarly microhistories. Essentially the same law was in place throughout this period, with minor adjustments. The edit also notes there was an exception for nationalized property, and cites the American Jewish Year Book for that reason as well.Tatzref (talk) 14:32, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Your WP:OR based on your reading of local microhistories (whom themselves document widespread fraud and transfer of Jewish property to "other" non-related people) is of little value vs. Poland-wide secondary research. I have a question - your quote above - "Przykład Szczebrzeszyna w odniesieniu do losów “mienia opuszczonego” wydaje się typowy. Świadczą o tym zarówno badania Grzegorza Miernika" - is this from page 171? Because page 171 is not by Skibinska. Icewhiz (talk) 14:46, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

That was a slip. The correct page number is 571. It is part of Skibinska's overall conclusion. The words “innym osobom za takowe się podającym”, i.e., "other persons holding themselves out as such," as Skibinska and others explain, refer to Jews posing as Jewish owners or their relatives in order to advance fraudulent claims. It was a big problem. Sometimes they were successful. However, it was virtually impossible for a non-Jew to pose as a Jew in order to initiate a bogus claim. At most, some Poles could be bribed to act as false witnesses for Jews. It is unlikely in the extreme that non-Jews would ever acquire property rights via the court process. Cichopek-Gajraj refers to this, and appears to recognize that it was essentially a Jewish problem. Jewish entities at that time did not attempt to shift the blame onto Poles.

At a meeting of the Central Committee of Polish Jews in August 1946: “News travels to Kraków from smaller Jewish communities that Jews started to sell houses which were not theirs… Jews sell houses of those who live abroad.” Polish courts increasingly became aware of these scams. The American Joint Distribution Committee: “The Polish courts have become increasingly alerted to the ‘racket’ of some Jews in going around making a business of making claims for the restitution of property belonging to people they know or did know, alleging that they are relatives or that they are the persons to whom the property belongs.” (Beyond Violence, p. 85)

This amply trumps your argument and demolishes any concerns about the value of the sources I cited.

As for late Jewish returnees from the Soviet Union they were treated no different than Poles who had to leave behind their homes in Eastern Poland territory seized by the Soviet Union. They were resettled on lands Poland acquired from Germany and received material compensation on the same basis as other Poles. Dariusz Stola deals with this matter in his article in Robbery and Restitution: The Conflict over Jewish Property in Europe (New York & Oxford, 2007), at p. 244. I believe I pointed this out before, but it looks like it has been removed.Tatzref (talk) 04:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Another apparent misrep in Icewhiz’s text: “Polish officials blocked return of Jews from DP camp.” This is based on the article by Laurence Weinstein, a researcher associated with the World Jewish Congress. Weinstein provides no source for this information. A far more authoritative author is historian Yehuda Bauer, who estimates that about 15,000 Jews returned to Poland from camps in Germany in his article “Jewish Survivors in DP Camps and She’erith Hapletah,” in volume 9 (The End of the Holocaust) in The Nazi Holocaust: Historical Articles on the Destruction of the European Jews (Westport, CT, 1989), p. 527. If Jews were prevented from returning to Poland, a far more likely enforcer would have been Zionist agents. They often used violence against Jews in DP camps in Germany and Austria who were unwilling to be drafted to fight in Palestine. Hundreds of such reports are known. See Yosef Grodzinsky, In the Shadow of the Holocaust: The Struggle Between Jews and Zionists in the Aftermath of World War II (Common Courage Press, 2004), pp. 199, 207, 230.

Yet another misrep based on Laurence Weinstein’s article: “with a claims deadline of 31 December 1947 (later extended to 31 December 1948) after which property devolved to the Polish state.” As Cichopek-Gajraj points out (Beyond Violence, p. 73), it was only after 10 years that an immoveable property remained “heirless” that the state could acquire ownership by right of occupation, which would mean mid-1955. In the meantime, claims could continue to be brought even by more distant heirs (apart from spouses, children, grandchildren, parents, grandparents and siblings) under the normal court process (Kasa i klucze, p. 523; Beyond Violence, p. 75).

Here’s a multiple misrep: “The majority of Jewish claimants could not afford the restitution process without financial help due to the filing costs, legal fees, and inheritance tax.” In fact, the source cited (“Beyond Violence”) states: “The majority of Jewish claimants residing in Poland could not afford to pay the fees without the help of the CKZP (which also offered free legal aid) or without obtaining an exemption from the court and lawyer fees called “poor man’s benefit.” So the state restitution process provided for an exemption from court and legal fees for needy applicants, and those who got an exemption didn’t need financial help. Second apparent misrep: the alleged destitute condition of most Jews in Poland. The head of the DP operations for UNRRA in Germany reported quite the opposite, noting the arrival of so many “well-dressed, well-fed, rosy-cheeked” Jews who appeared to have “plenty of money.” See Giles MacDonogh, After the Reich: From the Liberation of Vienna to the Berlin Airlift (John Murray, 2007), p. 330. Moreover, claims could be made from outside Poland. Skibinska stated that there was a booming business in Palestine and Germany, and that Jewish organizations around the world submitted claims. (Klucze i kasa, p. 530-531.) Tatzref (talk) 00:50, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

The clearest and most accurate treatment of the law on abandoned property appears to be an article by Barbara Gorczycka-Muszynska, an attorney and former judge, titled “Whose Tenements? A Legal Analysis of the Status of Former Jewish Property in Light of Postwar Polish Law,” in Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold? Studies on the Fate of Wartime Poles and Jews (Leopolis Press, 2012), edited by Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Wojciech Jerzy Muszynski & Pawel Styrna, at pages 223–231: Here are some key passages:

The first act in Communist-occupied Poland to regulate the status of abandoned property was the decree from 2 March 1945 (“On abandoned properties,” Dz.U. no. 9, item 45, 1945). It was soon substituted by another law from 6 May 1945 (same title, Dz.U., no. 17, item 94, 1945.) There were no significant differences between the two regulations. The successor act merely introduced a new stipulation regarding farms and extended the time available for Municipal Courts (Sady grodzkie) to examine the claims of former owners attempting to reclaim abandoned properties.

The decree and the successor act granted the owners of abandoned properties a special privilege. They benefited from simplified and expedited legal procedures while pursuing their property restitution claims, as opposed to the regular civil procedures. The latter included burdening the claimant with the financial costs of the legal proceedings, calculated as a percentage of the value of the property in question. Claims pursued via the provisions of the decree waived this demand. The municipal courts, which were tasked with handling such cases, were obligated to rule within especially short periods of time. According to the decree, the hearing was to be scheduled on the eighth day, and the court was required to rule “within three weeks of the filing of the claim or sooner" … According to the successor act, the hearing was to be scheduled no later the twenty-first day, counting from the date of the filing of the claim, while the ruling was to be announced no later than within six weeks from the date of filing.

The act “on abandoned properties” from 6 May 1945 was substituted by a decree from 8 March 1946 on abandoned and “post-German” properties (Dz.U., no. 13, item 87, 1946). … An important difference existed between the decree and act of 1945, on the one hand, and the decree of 1946, on the other. In the case of the former, expedited-track restitution could only occur upon the request of the owner himself (or a legally qualified party). According to the 1946 decree, however, any proprietor, hence also an individual not in possession of a title of ownership, qualified to file a restitution claim taking advantage of the fast-track proceedings.

The decree of 1946 specified the deadline for restitution claims filed with municipal courts. After a twofold extension, the deadline finally lapsed on 31 December 1948. Afterwards, persons filing for restitution claims could do so only via ordinary civil procedures. The remaining regulations of the decree of 1946 did not differ in any meaningful way from those contained in the legal acts of 1945.

It may also be considered noteworthy that the decree of 1946 shortened by half the time period following which an abandoned property came under the official ownership of the state. According to Article 34, Section 1, this period was 10 years in the case of real estate, and five years in the case of mobile property. In both cases, the period was calculated from the end of 1945. By contrast with the legal acts of 1945, the decree of 1946 introduced legal fees for those claiming restitution and appealing unfavorable rulings (Article 28, Section 1 of the decree). The amount was to constitute 1/10 of the proportional fee (wpis stosunkowy) calculated on the basis of the value of the property in question.

The provisions contained in all three were essentially identical. Thus, the general legal doctrine developed as a result of the decree of 1946 was also applicable to the two acts of 1945.

A comparison of the legal regulations pertaining to abandoned properties with legislation regarding “land reform” and the expropriation of industry reveals unequal treatment and the conferring of a privileged position to the owners of abandoned properties in relation to the owners of landed estates [almost all of these were ethnic Poles – ed. note] , businesses, and other goods confiscated in the name of the “law” by the Communist state. Individuals in the latter category were required to vacate their properties within a three-day period. Moreover, they were forbidden to live in their previous county of residence. It is difficult to resist the impression that the reason begin the privileged status granted to the former category may be attributed to the fact that many of the abandoned properties belonged formerly to Polish citizens of Jewish descent. The regulations pertaining to these properties enabled such persons, or their legal representatives, to sell them immediately following revendication. Such cases (the selling of reclaimed properties) were not uncommon, and pertained mainly to property regained by Jews, who were leaving Poland en masse after 1945. Tatzref (talk) 17:08, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Weinbaum is reliably published, and the factoid you're quoting from Bauer (1984) doesn't disagree with him - 15,000 (mostly temporary) returnees is a very small fraction here. As for Leopolis Press - this is a WP:SPS, and the particular work you are referring to has received very negative attention - it is notorious (which is why it was covered at all) - for claiming that a large portion of modern scholars in the field, all in very prestigious institutions, are "neo stalinists" - see [20], [21], and there are a number of others. This paperback response to Jan Gross's Golden Harvest (Gross's work being cited and used in an academic context) - is not cited by academic works. Icewhiz (talk) 05:59, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz (talk) 05:59, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Either 15,000 Jews returned to Poland from DP camps, as Bauer and other historians (Glikson, Dobroszycki) state, or they were blocked from returning as Weinbaum claims. You can't have it both ways. Moreover, Jews continued to return to Poland from DP camps in 1947 - 1,500 according to Józef Adelson, "W Polsce zwanej ludową," in Najnowsze dzieje Żydów w Polsce: w zarysie (do 1950 roku), ed. Jerzy Tomaszewski and Józef Adelson (Warsaw: Wydawn. Naukowe PWN, 1993), p. 419. Weinbaum gave no source for his information, nor did you come up with anything to support it. It's not worth much compared to the sources I cited. Moreover, the fact most Jews didn't remain in Poland changes nothing. They could have made restitution claims before they left or in Germany, where Jewish organizations and lawyers set up a booming business. The academics and professional historians who published articles in Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold?, among them Piotr Gontarczyk, Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Peter Stachura, John Radzilowski, Waldemar Chrostowski, have all published scholarly works that are widely cited. Jan Gross's Golden Harvest was also severely criticized by prominent historians such as Pawel Machcewicz and Bozena Szaynok, and Gross even falsely described the photograph on the dust cover showed Polish diggers searching for gold. So maybe Gross's book should not be relied on either. Moreover, Gorczycka-Muszynska's treatment of the actual law on abandoned property is not inconsistent with Cichopek-Gajraj's, just a lot clearer and more concise. In comparison with both of these authors, Weinbaum's effort is amateurish and contains blatant misreps.Tatzref (talk) 03:25, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz wrote:

The "grossly discrimanatory" Polish act was criticized by US president Truman,"displaced+person"+camps+Germany+Jews&dq=poland+blocked+"displaced+person"+camps+Germany+Jews&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiNqsvnhO3hAhWjAmMBHbQRBPI4FBDoATADegQIARAS though sources do place an emphasis on Jews fleeing for their lives to pogroms and other violence in Poland. There is no conflict between Polish authorities blocking returnees from DP camps - and a very small number, at specific intervals, returning. As stated by multiple sources making a restitution claim (which resulted in a notice, but not actual return of property) - and the subsequent much more ardous eviction proceedings against the Polish invaders - was close to impossible outside of Poland. Weinbaum is published by a reputable publisher, so is Gross. Both are cited by academic works, and cite their sources. As for Hearts of Gold - it seems reputable publishers refused to publish it and that the author/editor published it, in soft cover, by himself. The sole attention it received, it seems, is due to the outlandish claim that most of the leading scholars in the field in the US are "Stalinists". The author/editor of this WP:SPS being covered by the SPLC is a major red flag as well.2009 2017

Icewhiz, is this some sort of pathetic hoax or merely more flagrant misrepresentation? The text in the link has nothing to do with any “‘grossly discrimanatory’ (sic) Polish act [that] was criticized by US president Truman.” The text states:

Here are some of the most flagrantly discriminatory provisions of the Displaced Persons Act of 1948 which need correction:

1. The Act defines a displaced person as one who was in DP camps of Germany, Austria, and Italy on or before December 22, 1945. This date eliminates Poles, Czechs, almost all the Jews and others who fled into the camps during 1946 and 1947 and is, therefore, grossly discriminatory.

As per the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displaced_Persons_Act) “Truman had many objections to specific details … which he made explicit in his “Statement On Signing the Displaced Persons Act of 1948”: Truman, Harry S. (June 25, 1948). "Statement by the President Upon Signing the Displaced Persons Act - June 25, 1948". Internet Archive. Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Service. pp. 382–384:

https://archive.org/details/4728453.1948.001.umich.edu/page/382

You keep saying that Weinbaum cites his sources but you can’t seem to provide any source for the claim that Poland blocked the return of Jews from DP camps. So not only is there no evidence to support Weinbaum’s claim, which is contradicted by several Holocaust historians, but here’s an attempt to grossly misrepresent a text in order to bolster a bogus claim. This is highly disconcerting and discrediting.

Nor have you provided any source -- backed by actual data -- to support the claim that it was “close to impossible” to make restitution claims outside Poland. Moreover, persons making such claims didn’t want or seek possession of the property – they wanted to sell the property. Alina Skibinska of the Polish Holocaust Research Center, who has carried out in-depth research as to how the restitution process functioned, is quite clear about her conclusions as to the fate of real property owned by Jews in 1939: “there were about 210 such real estates in Szczebrzeszyn (excluding those belonging to the Jewish community) … at least one-third of them were returned to the owners, their heirs or other persons [i.e., Jews] holding themselves out as such by the year 1950. All these properties (with a few exceptions) were sold to Poles in a very short time, very often to the same ones who already occupied them.” Skibinska also refers to the booming restitution business outside Poland (p. 530-531). It was carried out in many countries, by many organizations, and involved applications made by law firms. In Israel, Keren Kajemet Le-Israel Ltd. alone submitted 1,821 claims for restitution by way of 37 batches up to July 4, 1948. It goes without saying that they would not have kept submitting claims if it was “close to impossible” for them to succeed. Skibinska also points out that her in-depth research confirms what other historians have found. “The example of Szczebrzeszyn regarding the fate of ‘abandoned property’ seems typical,” she writes. “This is evidenced by the research of Grzegorz Miernik, Łukasz Krzyżanowski and Adam Kopciowski.” No cogent evidence has been produced by you to put in question these factually based conclusions.

Leopolis Press, which published the English translation of Hearts of Gold, is associated with the Kosciuszko Chair at the Institute of World Politics in Washington DC. Given that one of the book’s editors, Chodakiewicz, is the holder of that chair, there is nothing amiss in the book being published there, rather than elsewhere. So your derogatory remark, “it seems reputable publishers refused to publish it,” while typical, is also a misrep. Moreover, no one in that book claimed that most of the leading scholars in the field in the US are “Stalinists” – yet another misrep. John Radzilowski, Associate Professor of History at the University of Alaska, wrote an article titled “The Neo-Stalinist Discourse in Polish Historical Studies in the United States.” Radzilowski’s credentials are impressive (http://www.uas.alaska.edu/dir/jtradzilowski.html). The degree of desperation to discredit Chodakiewicz is apparent by having to resort to the Southern Poverty Law Center, a thoroughly discredited and corrupt organization. Niall Fergusson called it a “phoney civil rights organisation.” Mark Thiessen wrote an article in the Washington Post aptly titled “The Southern Poverty Law Center has lost all credibility” (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-lost-all-credibility/2018/06/21/22ab7d60-756d-11e8-9780-b1dd6a09b549_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a9889d037724).

Furthermore, SPLC has no historical credentials, so its views regarding a historian’s writings are worth zero. Suffice it to point out that Chodakiewicz’s monograph, The Massacre in Jedwabne, is one of very few publications of hundreds on Jedwabne that is cited and relied on by Peter Longerich, a leading German Holocaust historian, in his Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews (Oxford University Press, 2010). So enough of these insinuations that are brought up again and again, as if they haven’t been addressed and discredited. They are a useless distraction and don’t in any way undermine the merit of Gorczycka-Muszynska’s article about postwar Polish legislation on abandoned properties.Tatzref (talk) 23:03, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I was incorrect on the act, struck. Leopolis is a self publication - it has published very few items and is run by Chodakiewicz himself. The SPLC is considered a RS on Wikipedia for white supramacism and other such activites in the US.Icewhiz (talk) 06:15, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with https://kosciuszkochair.com/leopolis-press/ associated with the The Institute of World Politics. I guess you could take it to WP:RSN for more comments, but right now I think it's a reliable source that can be cited. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:10, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

ONUS on those that want to use this. Leopolis press, which is run by the kosciuszko Chair in IWP, the chair also being the author of the book - "The holder of the Kościuszko Chair at IWP, Dr. Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, is the Publisher of Leopolis Press."[22] - is by definition WP:SPS. With the publisher/author in question -being profiled by the Southern Poverty Law Center - [23][24] - and has according to the SPLC "a long history of right-wing activism and controversy surrounding anti-Semitism" - this is a highly inappropriate source which runs counter to V/NPOV/FRINGE. Icewhiz (talk) 08:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Ridiculous; you are saying that if an academic also has ties to University of Foo than if he publishes in Foo University Press it's SPS? And it doesn't matter that an NGO criticizes a scholar, he is still a reliable (if biased) scholar. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:35, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Leopolis doesn't have the standing of a University press. It isn't even backed by IWP - it is backed by a single person - Chodakiewicz - who is designated by the SPLC. The Institute of World Politics itself (not that this is relevant, since Chodakiewicz is the publisher (and editor, and first named author)) is not a research institution - it is a very small teaching college offering a small number of M.A. programs. It is a "boutique graduate school for wannabe spies and national security nerds in Washington, D.C"[25] - and I'll expand - a large chunk of the very small student body (around 150) are CIA spooks (and the odd State dept. cultural attache who is not a spook - such unicorns do exist) who are back in the states on a desk job (and are studying concurrent to their stateside assignment) - the institute has a highly eclectic group of instructors who speak many European languages, some of whom represent various strains as nationalism (as, somewhat ironically, far-right nationalist elements in target countries are often exploited as intelligence assets). Another instructor employed there is - Sebastian Gorka (known for his support of Magyar Gárda in Hungary) - whose thesis adviser said "I would not call him an expert on terrorism".[26] Even if this were a IWP backed publisher there would be issues (as this isn't an institution known for its academic research or publications) - but here we are discussing a single SPLC designated individual who is the publisher. Icewhiz (talk) 07:40, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

And all it boils down to is that it's a minor scholarly outlet. But to me it still seems scholarly. I suggest WP:RSN if you want to get a community consensus on removing this.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:21, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

I reverted this recent change,[27] as it relies on a self-published work by an author/editor/publisher covered in WP:RSes for writing nationalist tracts that contain "prejudicial views towards Jews and other minorities", and who has been extensively covered by the Southern Poverty Law Center. I will further note that other sources (e.g. Stola in Martin Dean's book) were used in a highly selective fashion (Stola covering in the same page the anti-Jewish purpose of the 1945/6 decrees), or misrepresented (e.g. Klucze i kasa, which we shouldn't be using per NOENG, page 605 doesn't quite support the content attributed to it - and further notes that most Jewish moveable property remained in Polish hands, criminal gangs illegally taking over Jewish property, and that the post-war process was the last stage of the process that started under German occupation - and met by approval by Poles who became owners), and misused primary sources. Icewhiz (talk) 05:57, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

As noted previously, I do not concur that primary source is used inappropriately, nor that Chodawkiewicz is non-RS. Since no other user commented on those issues outside you, me, and Tatzref, it seems clear that majority of views are in favor if using those sources. Again, as I said above, you can ask for more input at RSN re Leopold Press, and if you have issues with the primary source from 1946 I guess we could do an RfC for it. I do agree that the sentence from KiK (605) is not worded properly, so I tagged it with clarification note before your revert. I am also ok with its temporary removal, until quotations are presented here to support it. The sentence in question is: "According to several historians[who?] who examined court records, “relatively many” Jews successfully reclaimed “a large number of properties” throughout Poland." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:17, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

ARCA rejected a blanket ban - which is beyond WP:NOENG. NOENG is English Wikipedia policy - preferring English language sources. Using a self-published source by a fringe author is a definite no-go. Icewhiz (talk) 06:31, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

I will note that besides review articles (which are equivalent to opinion - which were decidedly negative in English journal), "Hearts of Gold" was the subject of a full fledged journal article in peer reviewed setting. Grzegorz Krzywiec notes in his journal article that "This collection is more like the material for a seminar of linguists or even scholars of rhetoric and propaganda. The book will not be good nourishment for readers interested in the Holocaust and its third phase". "There is something farcical about the conception of a crusade against the

modern world professed by a few researchers from a marginal research centre, which is a recruitment pool of the CIA.. Would care to elaborate on the academic background of Barbara Gorczycka-Muszyńska? The journal article has little to say on her other than "It seems that it is not a coincidence that Gorczycka-Muszyńska has the same surname as another author and editor of the collection. and notes that she "does spare the reader her relections on the communists of Jewish descent (“żydokomuna”) aside from a cleverly chosen part of a testimony of a “Jew from Lublin.” Obviously nothing tastes as good as a quotation of a real Jew in a parable with an anti-Semitic tag line!" - what pray tell are Gorczycka-Muszyńska (the sole thing I found about her in an academic setting, is Krzywiec journal article quote above) credentials here? Icewhiz (talk) 07:18, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

@Icewhiz: I cannot get an access to this article. Would you be so kind and email me a copy? I would like to use it as a source for the relevant paragraph in his bio. TIA. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:46, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Krzywiec has ethical problems. No serious source? http://kompromitacje.blogspot.com/2012/09/grzegorz-krzywiec-o-romanie-dmowskim.html Xx236 (talk) 07:24, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Chod. is not an RS, and less so as an SPS. As for this law, I have a confession: I have never heard of it prior to it being raised on Wiki. I've talked with a lot of survivors over the years (and heard or read the stories of many more), including some who stayed in Poland after the war, and none ever mentioned it as far as I can recall. This is not a representative sample, I'm sure, but I can't help but think that if there was such an effort by the Polish government it was short lived and poorly published. Reparations were well known and hotly debated; this? Nothing. François Robere (talk) 10:24, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Millions lost their properties after the war. Division of big farms (reforma rolan) and nationalisation, Bierut's decree in Warsaw, lost Eastern Poland. Owner's of houses had to accept destructive tenants. Now you come and say - hello the Poles, you robbed us. The Communists robbed everyone and constructed thousands of tanks to kill people of the West. Americans obtained compensations. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%20384/volume-384-I-5518-English.pdf The majority of Polish people lost their economies as the result of money exchange 1950 and 1980-1995 inflation. Xx236 (talk) 10:49, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

We're not here to rehash Polish post-war agreements. If you claim this law, which I never heard of, was an exceedingly generous and considerate arrangement, you'd better have more than just one SPS source by Chodawkiewicz. Dropping the superlatives would also leave you with a much stronger argument, putting Poland's Jews in line with everyone else who lost their possessions. François Robere (talk) 11:51, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Please discuss the problem of generposity with those editors, who claim it. My family lost everything during the war. Our house in Belarus was plundered by Polish neighbours. It's the real world of Eastern Europe. Xx236 (talk) 11:57, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Anyway, as a compromise I propose we attribute any problematic sources. As for Chodakiewicz, isn't he just an editor for of this book? So we should figure out who wrote the chapter(s) being cited here. It could be someone more - or less - reliable, opening a new issue :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:58, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Arbitrary break

I restored the WP:STABLE version here, please do not revert prior to establishing consensus. Use of a fringe work, edited and self-published by a far-right activist[28] - described as "farcical" in an academic journal article covering the controversy over its release, its contents (described as collection of polemic essays, not history) thoroughly roasted ([29][30][31]) by the few academics who bothered to respond to this (possibly due to the extremeness of the thesis, presented in a whole chapter: "The study scrupulously states that “neo-Stalinism” has certainly been dominant in the American social sciences since the 1960s. ... Furthermore, this Soviet-European-American implant seems to have been a danger to Polish social life since the 1990s. Finally, after a lengthy exposition, the author states that “neo-Stalinism may also be seen as a historiographic offensive bringing turmoil to Polish intellectual, cultural and social life in years following 1989” (p. 246)"). The particular author of the essay cited in the removed segment seems to have no academic credentials other than "it seems that it is not a coincidence that Gorczycka-Muszyńska has the same surname as another author and editor of the collection", also noting "does spare the reader her relections on the communists of Jewish descent (“żydokomuna”) aside from a cleverly chosen part of a testimony of a “Jew from Lublin.” Obviously nothing tastes as good as a quotation of a real Jew in a parable with an anti-Semitic tag line!".[32] This far right collection of polemic essays is clearly not an appropriate source. Icewhiz (talk) 06:02, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

That's not actually the stable version and anyway, WP:STABLE is not a policy, it is most certainly not an excuse for edit warring.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:46, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Also - per WP:NOENG - we shouldn't be using non-English sources here at all as equal or better English language sources are available. Furthermore, in a spot check of Klucze i kasa - page 605 doesn't quite support the content attributed to it - and further notes that most Jewish moveable property remained in Polish hands, criminal gangs illegally taking over Jewish property, and that the post-war process was the last stage of the process that started under German occupation - and met by approval by Poles who became owner. Per NOENG - Please provide quotation (entire paragraph please, for context) + translations of every Klucze i kasa passage you want to discuss using. Icewhiz (talk) 06:06, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

For the millionth time, stop misrepresenting WP:NOENG. You even brought this to ArbCom and were basically told your claims about it were nonsense. One'd figure that'd be enough to put that to rest, but apparently not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:46, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

I asked for a soircing restriction - beyond NOENG. NOENG itself remains policy and is quote clear in regards to preferring English sources amd request for quotation.Icewhiz (talk) 02:49, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT^8 Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

I've already tagged some refs for verification, not sure it was provided. Please bring to talk before adding! François Robere (talk) 07:10, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

The review you mention ([33]) discusses cherry picking, and it seems that this is the case here. The reviewers point out errors and bias in the book, but also that it contains good parts. Ex. [34]: "In writing this admittedly harsh review, I have worked to note what is valuable in the book.". The review at [35] seems neutral and does not make any value judgement about the book. Neither of those two seems to contain the word 'farcical' you 'quote'. Who called the book such? In either case, the book is a collection of the essays. Some are better, some are worse. You seem to repeat ad nauseum the controversial claim the book makes about some scholars being neo-Stalinist, but this claim is only from one of the book essays, and I don't think we even cite this essay here, so your criticism is a straw man fallacy. Since you say that the page 605 of Klucze... does not support the content given, I will not restore it, pending User:Tatzref response (and I note I have already agreed above that that sentence is problematic). I see no reason to remove other contents, and your repeated attacks on professor Chodawkiewicz might warrant a reminder about WP:BLP. PS. I will also note that some of the content you've removed had unchallenged quotations provided above, ex. the statistics for Szczebrzeszyn. I would like to see quotations for Zamość and Parczew, if possible. I think that the estimate that about (only?) 1/3 of the Jewish properties was reclaimed following the war is likely a correct, if rough, estimate, and a valuable summary for this article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:53, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

No consensus to include material published by a far right activist. Please stop edit warring and stick to the WP:STABLE] version. Micro statistics of property claims (many of which were fraud - not returning to the owners - per multiple sources) are UNDUE. Finally, please do not restore non-English sources without providing clear quotes and translations per NOENG.Icewhiz (talk) 10:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

There is no consensus in sources that this professor is a far right activist. If you persist in calling him this left and right, this is something that BLP reviewers will have to be contacted about. And quotes and translations are recommended but NOT REQUIRED, so you don't get to remove sources that fail it unless they are clear red flags, and this is not the case here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:00, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

SPLC and Newsweek, use far right. These are RSes. NOENG states editors may request quotation - which I have - please provide them. Finally, introducing extremist sources - the particular cited essay being by an author without academic qualifications and a review noting it contains an antisemitic motif - is not acceptable.Icewhiz (talk) 11:12, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

We are not citing that "particular essay". But anyway, who describes it as extremist? You may not like something (I am not a fan of their arguments, neither), but not liking something doesn't mean we get to censor it from Wikipedia. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:23, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

The essay we are citing is described as containing an antisemitic motif in an academic journal article (not a short review). The author of the essay has no academic qualifications in the fields. The journal article does note a family relationship to one of the co-editors. The publisher (and editor, and author) is a far right activist, profiled by the SPLC. So far - other than stating this exists - you have brought no justification for the use of this essay (which runs counter to multiple published (by a publisher with a positive reputation), acadmic sources).Icewhiz (talk) 11:30, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Some recent edits:

• [36] CUP is "mainstream", but Chod. isn't. The very name of the book ("Polish-Jewish Conflict") is rather telling regarding its position, and Polonsky's review of the book, which I added earlier today to his respective article (regardless of your edit),[37] corroborates one's suspicion that it's far from "mainstream", or even acceptable.
• [38] Trying to look for the source of the quote in that Ph.D thesis; note that it was quoted by an RS, so it shouldn't be that problematic. There is, however, another quote there, that we can use without objection as it's sourced to Dobroszycki: "As the then Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs explained of the new legalization in October 1945: ‘We will not permit some foreign Jews, for instance Argentinian Jews, to inherit property in Poland.’" I still object the use of Chod's SPS. The second par. is mostly cruft, and with all honesty I don't trust the estimate of "1/3 of all properties" - that would suggest hundreds of thousands of properties, and given that nobody I ever talked with ever mentioned it (stories of lost property, however, abound), nor is it mentioned in high-profile sources, I find it hard to believe.
• [39] "Suggests" and "effectively means" are not the same. Go with the source.
• [40] This is actually an interesting issue. Not at the core of our disagreements here, but I think worth covering in a wider context as it didn't affect only Holocaust survivors and their kin.

François Robere (talk) 15:04, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

There is no phd thesis that was used. Weizman is published (in English) in a peer reviewed journal. One of his many sources was a phd thesis - however secondary sources routinely gather sources and vet them. Icewhiz (talk) 20:25, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

• I don't see a consensus for this version of the section on section on Jewish property. Sourcing is not reliable & the content looks cherry-picked. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:32, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
  • So you seriously think that the version that cites a PhD thesis, unverifiable quote accusing Polish government of calling Jews parasites and making laws based on that attitude is neutral and not-cherry picked? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:35, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
    • It does not contain a phd thesis - it contains a peer reviewed journal article that cites (one of a multitude of sources - 87 references) a phd thesis. We have a WP:STABLE version - please cease edit warring until we form a consensus here.Icewhiz (talk) 02:49, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

• I will address the various points raised in detail shortly. For now I want to make it clear that Icewhiz's text is by no means a "stable version", which is defined by Wikipedia as: "The term "stable version" is a concept that refers to the most recent version of an article that was not affected by an active content dispute or edit war." Icewhiz introduced his text on March 12, 2019 after reverting my text of February 22, 2019, which was restored by others in the interim. There is no consensus for his text. Holding it out as a "stable version" is a misrep. Here's the sequence:

16:37, 22 February 2019‎ Tatzref talk contribs‎ 218,162 bytes +3,071‎ →‎Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property: added information on property restitution

06:23, 23 February 2019‎ Icewhiz talk contribs‎ 215,273 bytes -3,071‎ Undid revision 884586715 by Tatzref (talk) OR, misrepresentation of sources

15:34, 23 February 2019‎ Piotrus talk contribs‎ 218,184 bytes +3,093‎ Undid revision 884674904 by Icewhiz (talk) I don't see any red flags in this, please explain on talk what is this OR and misrepresentation of sources here?

15:40, 23 February 2019‎ Piotrus talk contribs‎ 217,467 bytes -695‎ →‎Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property: this seems not particularly relevant, and could have neutrality/undue problems, also difficult to verify due to convoluted and offline (?) reference

01:59, 24 February 2019‎ יניב הורון talk contribs‎ 215,091 bytes -2,376‎ rv antisemitic vandalism

06:36, 24 February 2019‎ Volunteer Marek talk contribs‎ 217,467 bytes +2,376‎ please refrain from using false and offensive edit summaries

07:03, 24 February 2019‎ Icewhiz talk contribs‎ 215,091 bytes -2,376‎ Undid revision 884821883 by Volunteer Marek (talk) Use of 1947 primary source not acceptable. Gross misrepresentation of Klucze i kasa (37 cited pages) - reading the book in question leads to a different conclusion.

13:55, 24 February 2019‎ Galassi talk contribs‎ 217,467 bytes +2,376‎ Reverted good faith edits by Icewhiz (talk): Meets all the WP:RS criteria (TW)

22:49, 25 February 2019‎ TonyBallioni talk contribs‎ m 217,467 bytes 0‎ Protected "History of the Jews in Poland": Edit warring / content dispute: AE action ([Edit=Require administrator access] (expires 22:49, 11 March 2019 (UTC)) [Move=Require administrator access] (expires 22:49, 11 March 2019 (UTC)))Tag: PHP7

12:23, 12 March 2019‎ Icewhiz talk contribs‎ 219,143 bytes +1,651‎ →‎Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property: Remove content as it failed verification vs. the cited sources, misused a primary source, and was contradicted by available English RSes. Replace with content cited to academic English-language sources available online.

Tatzref (talk) 02:58, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

12 March is stable - and if not - we should return prior to Feb. Tatzref, per NOENG, please provide a quotation (entire parahraphs please) that supports "Perhaps of a third of pre-war Jewish properties were restored to pre-war owners or relatives; the others were passed to new owners. In Szczebrzeszyn, a “typical” case of a small town in the Lublin Province, at least one third of 210 private properties belonging to Jews were successfully recovered by 1950, and almost all of the properties were very quickly sold to Poles..Icewhiz (talk) 03:05, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Icewhiz, I already provided the relevant text from Klucze i kasa (p. 562-563), so don't keep asking for the same thing over and over again -- look for it here instead of simply wiping out my edits under false pretenses. Besides, that's not my text. My text [04:32, 7 May 2019‎ Tatzref talk contribs‎ m 220,749 bytes +12‎ →‎Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property & 04:28, 7 May 2019‎ Tatzref talk contribs‎ 220,737 bytes +1,343‎ →‎Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property] is set out below:

Successive restitution laws on “abandoned property” of March 2, 1945, May 6, 1945 and March 8, 1946, which remained in effect until the end of 1948, allowed property owners who had been dispossessed during the war or, if deceased, their spouses, children, grandchildren, parents, grandparents and siblings, whether residing in Poland or outside the country, to reclaim privately owned property that was not subject to nationalization by way of a simplified, expedited and far less expensive procedure than the regular civil procedures. Until abandoned properties became nationalized at the end of 1955, such persons, as well as more distant relatives, could claim property of deceased owners under the regular civil procedures. Pursuant to the decrees of May 6, 1945 and March 8, 1946, applications had to be heard by municipal courts within 21 days and ruled on within 6 weeks. Many claims were processed successfully the day they were filed. Needy claimants could obtain exemptions from court and legal fees; financial and legal assistance was provided by various Jewish organizations. Poles often served as witnesses to corroborate claims of Jewish neighbors and acquaintances. Although municipal court rulings did not confer immediate ownership on someone who was not a dispossessed owner, successful claimants were able to sell the properties immediately following revendication. Many properties were also transferred or sold by Jewish owners outside this process. Jewish returnees from the Soviet Union who settled in territories acquired from Germany received material compensation on the same basis as Poles who had lost their property in Eastern Poland.

According to the American Jewish Year Book, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.” Numerous Jewish organizations and law firms outside of Poland submitted applications on behalf of non-residents. For example, Keren Kajemet Le-Israel Ltd. submitted 1,821 restitution claims by July 4, 1948. According to several historians who examined court records, “relatively many” Jews successfully reclaimed “a large number of properties” throughout Poland. In Szczebrzeszyn, a “typical” case of a small town in the Lublin Province, at least one third of 210 private properties belonging to Jews were successfully recovered by 1950, and almost all of the properties were very quickly sold to Poles. The following examples also pertain to county towns in the Lublin Province: 281 applications were submitted in Zamość, 240 in Włodawa, some involving multiple properties, and 301 out of 894 former Jewish properties in Parczew were recovered by 1946.

This is my next post (more to come) dealing with the following book -- published by the Polish Holocaust Center in Warsaw, with which Jan Grabowski is affiliated -- referred to in support of 4 statements in my purged text: Klucze i kasa: O mieniu żydowskim w Polsce pod okupacją niemiecką i we wczesnych latach powojennych 1939–1950, ed. by Jan Grabowski & Dariusz Libionka (Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów, Warszawa 2014). The relevant authors are: Alina Skibińska, “Problemy rewindykacji żydowskich nieruchomości w latach 1944–1950: Zagadnienia ogólne i szczegółowe (na przykładzie Szczebrzeszyna),” p. 493-573 & Łukasz Krzyżanowski, “‘Chcielibyśmy, by ten dom nie pozostał w obcych rękach’: Sądowa restytucja prywatnego mienia żydowskiego w Polsce na przykładzie Radomia i Kalisza 1945–1948,” p. 575-607.

1. Many claims were processed successfully the day they were filed.

Regarding the functioning of the court process Alina Skibińska wrote (at p. 568-569): “Oceniając więc postawę obu sędziów Sądu Grodzkiego w Szczebrzeszynie, należy brać pod uwagę nie tylko wyroki przez nich wydawane, a te były w zdecydowanej większości pozytywne dla wnioskodawców, lecz także tempo, w jakim sprawy rozpatrywali. Wielokrotnie data rozprawy wyznaczana była na ten sam dzień, w którym wniosek wpłynął, lub na termin bardzo nieodległy, co świadczy o przychylności tych sędziów, nie utrudniali bowiem proceduralnie spraw majątkowych. Wyroki zapadły z reguły jeszcze w dniu roprawy, uprawomocniały się po kilku tygodniach lub miesiącach. Obaj sędziowie brdzo często przymykali oko na nieścisłosci lub drobniejsze sprzeczności dowodowe, nie można w ich decyzjach dopatrywać się złej woli.”

GOOGLE TRANSLATION (with adjustments): “In assessing the attitude of both Judges of the Grodzki [municipal] Court in Szczebrzeszyn, one should take into account not only the judgments passed by them, and these were mostly positive for the applicants, but also the pace at which they were considered. Repeatedly, the date of the hearing was set on the same day as the application, or on a very short date, which proves the favorable disposition of these judges, because they did not obstruct property matters in a procedural way. The verdicts were usually passed on the day the case was heard, they became legalized after a few weeks or months. Both judges very often turned a blind eye to inaccuracies or minor contradictions of evidence, one cannot see bad faith in their decisions.”

2. Numerous Jewish organizations and law firms outside of Poland submitted applications on behalf of non-residents. For example, Keren Kajemet Le-Israel Ltd. submitted 1,821 restitution claims by July 4, 1948.

Alina Skibińska wrote (at p. 530-531): “W zachowanej dokumentacji wynika, że niektóre organizacje, poszczególne biura prawne i adwokaci wyspecjalizowali się w sprawach o rewindykację mienia. Na przykład w Izraelu organizacja Keren Kajemet Le-Israel Ltd. miała Wydział Majątków Żydowskich w Diasporze, kierowany przez P.J. Jacobiego. W piśmie z 4 lipca 1948 r. do polskiej centrali KKL w Łodzi (Fundusz miał oddziały w większych miastach) informowano o przesłaniu trzydziestego ósmego już wykazu wniosków skierowanych do sądów w Polsce, ogółem wszystkich pozycji we wnioskach było 1821. Podobnymi sprawami zajmowały się wydziały prawne innych organizacji, np. Central Committee of Liberated Jews in the British Zone (Centralny Komitet Uwolnionych Żydów w Stefie [sic] Brytyjskiej), Federation of Jews from Poland in the U.S. Occupation Zone w Monachium (Federacja Żydów Polskich w Amerykańskiej Strefie Okupacyjnej), South African Jewish Board of Deputies w Johannesburgu (Żydowski Związek Deputowanych w Afryce Południowej), World Jewish Congress z siedzibą w Nowym Jorku, Association of Formerly Interned Jews in Italy (Stowarzyszenie Żydów wcześniej internowanych we Włoszech), Federacion de Los Israelitas Polacos en El Uruguay (Federacja Żydów Polskich w Urugwaju), Mosaiska Församlingen (Gmina Żydowska) w Sztokholmie i wiele innych, aczkolwiek nie posiadały one oddziałów w Polsce i nie prowadziły w Polsce spraw sądowych w imieniu swoich klientów. Listy w imieniu Żydów polskich w sprwach o restytucję mienia pozostawionego w Polsce napływały więc do CKŻP [Centralnego Komitetu Żydów w Polsce] z całego świat (Chin i Indii nie wykluczając), zarówno od osób indywidualnych, jak i organizacji reprezentujących skupiska polskich Żydów za granicą – niektóre bardzo liczne, jak te w zachodnich strefach okupacyjnych Niemiec czy w Izraelu.”

GOOGLE TRANSLATION (with adjustments): “The preserved documentation shows that some organizations, particular legal offices and lawyers specialized in cases regarding property restitution. For example, in Israel, the Keren Kajemet Le-Israel Ltd. organization had a Jewish Diaspora Department, headed by P.J. Jacobi. In a letter dated July 4, 1948, to the Polish headquarters of the KKL in Łódź (the Fund had branches in major cities), it informed about their sending of the thirty-eighth list of applications addressed to courts in Poland; the total of all items in the applications was 1821. Similar matters were dealt with by legal departments of other organizations, such as the Central Committee of Liberated Jews in the British Zone, the Federation of Jews from Poland in the US Occupation Zone in Munich (Federation of Polish Jews in the American Occupation Zone), South African Jewish Board of Deputies in Johannesburg (Jewish Association of Deputies in South Africa), World Jewish Congress based in New York, Association of Formerly Interned Jews in Italy (Association of Jews formerly internees in Italy), Federacion de Los Israelitas Polacos en El Uruguay (Federation of Polish Jews in Uruguay), Mosaiska Församlingen (Jewish Community) in Stockholm and many others, although they did not have branches in Poland and did not conduct court cases in Poland on behalf of their clients. Letters on behalf of Polish Jews in claims for the restitution of property left in Poland came to the CKŻP [Central Committee of Jews in Poland] from all over the world (including China and India), both from individuals and organizations representing clusters of Polish Jews abroad - some very numerous, as in the western occupation zones of Germany or in Israel.”

3. According to several historians who examined court records, “relatively many” Jews successfully reclaimed “a large number of properties” throughout Poland.

Regarding case studies carried out by historians for other towns Alina Skibińska wrote (at p. 571): “Przykład Szczebrzeszyna w odniesieniu do losów “mienia opuszczonego” wydaje się typowy. Świadczą o tym zarówno badania Grzegorza Miernika, Łukasza Krzyżanowskiego, Adama Kopciowskiego. Ten ostatni zauważa, a jego wniosek potwierdzają również moje badania, “że choć odzyskiwanie utraconego w czasie wojny mienia wiązało się z ogromnym ryzykiem, stosunkowo wielu Żydom udało się je odzyskać.”

GOOGLE TRANSLATION (with adjustments): “The example of Szczebrzeszyn regarding the fate of “abandoned property” seems typical. This is evidenced by the research of Grzegorz Miernik, Łukasz Krzyżanowski and Adam Kopciowski. The latter notes, and his conclusion is also confirmed by my research, “that although the recovery of property lost during the war was associated with enormous risk, relatively many Jews managed to recover it.”

Łukasz Krzyżanowski wrote (at p. 605): “Zakończenie. Nie sposób określić całkowitej liczby przypadków odzyskania mienia prywatnego przez Żydow tuż po drugiej wojnie światowej w Radomiu i Kaliszu. Na podstawie akt sądowych z obu miast można wnioskować, iż posiadanie, nie własność, stosunkowo dużej liczby nieruchomości zostało przywrócone ocalałym z Zagłady, którzy powrócili do miejsc swego pochodzenia.”

GOOGLE TRANSLATION (with adjustments): “Conclusion. It is impossible to determine the total number of cases of private property recovered by Jews in Radom and Kalisz shortly after the Second World War. On the basis of judicial files from both cities, it can be concluded that possession, not ownership, of a relatively large number of properties was restored to the Holocaust survivors who returned to their places of origin.”

4. In Szczebrzeszyn, a “typical” case of a small town in the Lublin Province, at least one third of 210 private properties belonging to Jews were successfully recovered by 1950, and almost all of the properties were very quickly sold to Poles.

Alina Skibińska wrote (at p. 562-563): “Scalenie dostępnych w materiałach archiwalnych informacji o nieruchomości należących przed wojną do Żydow prowadzi do wniosku, że było takich nieruchomości w Szczebrzeszynie ok. 210 (z wyłączeniem należących do gminy). Wszystkie te liczby świadczą o tym, że przynajmniej jedna trzecia spośród nich została właścicielom, ich spadkobiercom lub innym osobom za takowe się podającym do roku 1950 zwrócona. Wszystkie te nieruchomości (z kilkoma wyjątkami) w bardzo krótkim czasie sprzedano Polakom, bardzo często tym samym, którzy już je zajmowali.”

GOOGLE TRANSLATION (with adjustments): “The merger of information about real estate owned by the Jews before the war in the archives leads to the conclusion that there were about 210 real estates in Szczebrzeszyn (excluding those belonging to the commune). All these figures indicate that at least one-third of them became [were returned to] owners, their heirs or other persons holding themselves out as such by 1950. All these properties (with a few exceptions) were sold to the Poles in a very short time, very often to the same ones who already occupied them.”

Therefore, it is clear that what I wrote is accurate and fully supported by the sources I provided. Icewhiz’s repeated claims of “Gross misrepresentation of Klucze i kasa,” “misrepresentation of sources,” etc. are themselves a misrepresentation, as is his claim that his edit represents “Restore WP:STABLE version.” Icewhiz has also been caught in an egregious misrepresentation of sources in this very article, claiming that the following linked source supported Weinbaum’s claim that the Polish authorities blocked the return of Jews from Germany -- Icewhiz (talk) 05:59, 24 April 2019 (UTC): “The "grossly discrimanatory" Polish act was criticized by US president Truman,"displaced+person"+camps+Germany+Jews&dq=poland+blocked+"displaced+person"+camps+Germany+Jews&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiNqsvnhO3hAhWjAmMBHbQRBPI4FBDoATADegQIARAS.” As I pointed, that text says no such thing. President Truman was criticizing certain provisions of the Displaced Persons Act of 1948.

Before moving on to the next source (in the next post), the reports of Jewish organizations who were submitting restitution claims at the time and monitoring their outcome fully support what I wrote about the above sources. The American Jewish Year Book, a highly reliable source published and authored by academics, reported, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.” ”https://www.jstor.org/stable/i23603328

Tatzref (talk) 14:46, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

References
References

Apologies if I misread you, but this seems absurd to the point of dishonest:

1. The source describes just two judges - yet you generalize it to the entire system?
2. The source talks about "some organizations", which you turn into "numerous organizations"? And how does "the total number of items in the applications" become "the total number of applications"?
3. Cherry picking to the extreme:
   1. Why did you quote the source on "relatively many", but not on "enormous risk"? And what else does the source say about this risk? Presumably it didn't pluck this phrase out of thin air, especially as it claims to verify it independently.
   2. Again false generalization: the source only talks about two cities - why do you quote it for the entire system? And why on earth do you not mention that they didn't actually get ownership of their properties, just possession? It changes the meaning of the entire quote!
4. First off, the source doesn't say anything about Szczebrzeszyn being a "typical case" of anything. Second, the source suggests, most or all of these properties were already occupied - something you chose to omit, presumably as it doesn't serve the narrative that reclamation went quickly and smoothly and everyone got their properties back as easy as they asked for them. Third, despite the fact this is core to the context of the sales and you chose to omit it, you still mentioned the sales. For what purpose?
5. The American Jewish Year Book, other than stating what you quoted above, also makes this note: "Recently, [the Jewish organization] submitted a memorandum to the government asking the restitution of Jewish communal property, which in several towns was used by the non-Jewish population for clubs and recreational centers." I was curious to see what resulted from that effort, so I looked in the following year book and found this: "the unfortunate handling of the problem of the restitution of Jewish property must be noted. In a number of cases when property could have been restored to the owners, local courts ruled in favor of persons who had no right to it... It was reported by local observers that very little collective Jewish property, i.e., property of Jewish communities, schools, foundations, etc., had been returned." If you want to use this source, which you hail as "a highly reliable source published and authored by academics", be my guest.

François Robere (talk) 18:02, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

References

I came to post the text below (more to follow), and was surprised to see that I'm now at "the point of [being] dishonest."

1. It's not me who is drawing general conclusions from the research, but Skibinska. Based on a pattern of large scale property restitution in a number of towns researched by several historians, she concludes that Szczebrzeszyn, where at least 1/3 of the private properties were returned, appears to be a "typical" case. She wrote: "The example of Szczebrzeszyn regarding the fate of “abandoned property” seems typical. This is evidenced by the research of Grzegorz Miernik, Łukasz Krzyżanowski and Adam Kopciowski."

2. "Some organizations" refers to just the first ones mentioned, then there are many more: "some organizations, particular legal offices and lawyers specialized in cases regarding property restitution ... Similar matters were dealt with by legal departments of other organizations...and many others..." Sounds like "numerous" to me. That's what the source says: By July 1948, they had submitted 38 lists of court applications, and the total number of items, i.e., property claims, in these lists amounted to 1821.

3. The article already contains an entire section dealing with immediate postwar violence. Moreover, as the sources show, the court process itself rarely gave rise to violence. The violence sometimes occurred in other contexts, e.g., when someone wanted actual possession of an occupied home. The properties that were recovered via the court process were almost always sold immediately without incident. That was the norm. I also acknowledged this in my text: "Although municipal court rulings did not confer immediate ownership on someone who was not a dispossessed owner, successful claimants were able to sell the properties immediately following revendication."

4. As multiple sources show, the vast majority of claimants, many of them outside Poland, simply wanted to sell the properties after their claim was approved, and this they did. See also the findings of Stanislaw Meducki (below) regarding Kielce.

5. My article does not deal with communal property, but private property that was not subject to nationalization. Yes, there were a number of fraudulent claims, which I had mentioned in a previous version, but that edit was removed by someone. Cichopek-Gajraj refers to this in Beyond Violence (p. 85): At a meeting of the Central Committee of Polish Jews in August 1946: “News travels to Kraków from smaller Jewish communities that Jews started to sell houses which were not theirs… Jews sell houses of those who live abroad.” The American Joint Distribution Committee: “The Polish courts have become increasingly alerted to the ‘racket’ of some Jews in going around making a business of making claims for the restitution of property belonging to people they know or did know, alleging that they are relatives or that they are the persons to whom the property belongs.” This probably deserves mention, but it'll likely just get removed again.Tatzref (talk) 00:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

1. I asked about the judges - how does you or the author generalize from two judges to a national system? And what does a "typical case" mean, exactly? A "typical case" of what?
2. Doesn't sound like it to me. And it is the "total number of items", rather than "the total number of applications".
3. The article does not contain a section on violence towards people filing reclamation requests, and that is what the source claims was the risk, doesn't it? Perhaps it is worth noting? And your phrasing is obtuse and illogical: if it did not "confer ownership" on anyone who wasn't dispossessed, who did it confer ownership to? And how could you sell a property that wasn't yours?
4. "Wanted" is your interpretation. Per your source the process was "enormously risky" (and you contradict yourself by claiming the violence was directed at returnees, yet that many of the applicants were from abroad - ie not returnees), the properties were usually occupied and the claimants rarely got actual ownership of the properties - all huge difficulties in realizing one's legal rights, which you choose to ignore in favor of a simplistic "[they] simply wanted to sell... that was the norm"? Whose narrative that this simplistic explanation serve?
5. You quoted AJYB; AJYB clearly states that the process was flawed, that in some cases courts ruled wrongly, and that no communal property was returned. Seeing this, instead of replying to the point on the conduct or misconduct of the Polish system, you raise the spectre of Jews cheating? Whose narrative does this serve?

François Robere (talk) 11:53, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Just highlighting this unfinished thread ⬆. François Robere (talk) 09:09, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Before moving on to the next source (Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold), I wanted to point out once again why my text on the outcome of private property claims is demonstrably superior to Icewhiz’s.

1. It relies on the latest scholarly research by reputable, professional historians.

2. Eight historians--Krzysztof Urbański (Kielce), Grzegorz Miernik (Szydłowiec), Stanisław Meducki (Kielce), Adam Kopciowski (Zamość, Włodawa), Sebastian Piątkowski (Radom), Mariusz Bechta (Parczew), Alina Skibińska (Szczebrzeszyn), Łukasz Krzyżanowski (Radom, Kalisz)--carried out in-depth examination of the relevant court records in specific towns and independently arrived at similar conclusions regarding the large extent of property restitution in those towns.

3. Based on this clear pattern (citing the studies of Miernik, Kopciowski, Krzyżanowski as well as her own), Alina Skibińska concluded that her town (Szczebrzeszyn) was "typical," in other words, this is a representative sample. She also pointed out that these were minimum numbers of recovered properties, as the court records were incomplete. Moreover, as noted in other sources, many properties were sold or transferred outside the municipal court restitution process.

4. Skibińska goes on to assess the workings of the local municipal court: the vast majority of claims were favourably dealt with; the pace was very speedy, as many of the claims were allowed the day they were received or very soon after; the judges very often overlooked deficiencies the applications.

5. Similar conclusions were drawn by other historians, who note that the vast majority of claims were processed without incident. Stanisław Meducki states: “In Kielce, Jews did not have any difficulties with recovering their own property. As a rule, every motion was settled favorably and quickly. In most cases, the property was taken over by the relatives of the former owners, whose rights were ascertained on the grounds of witnesses’ testimony. Witnesses, most often Poles, neighbors or acquaintances from before the war, testified before the court willingly, without reluctance or prejudice.” See Z kroniki utraconego sąsiedztwa: Kielce, wrzesień 2000/From the Chronicle of the Lost Neighborhood: Kielce, September 2000, ed. by Marta Pawlina-Meducka (Kieleckie Towarzystwo Naukowe, Kielce 2001), p. 202 (bilingual edition, English text cited).

6. This research both confirms and is further supported by what Jewish organizations reported at the time. According to The American Jewish Year Book (1947-1948), which was published and authored by academics, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.”

7. Michael Meng’s claim that the number of recovered properties was “extremely small” (Shattered Spaces) is based on no research of his own, nor does he cite any sources in support. As such, it carries no weight. Since it conflicts with the findings of many other historians, it should not be cited at all, or if it is, it should be pointed out that this is a minority view that is based on sheer conjecture.

8. Similarly Cichopek-Gajraj’s research on the outcome of property restitution (Beyond Violence) is spotty at best, relying most on anecdotes, and her conclusion that only a “small” number of properties was returned is, by her own admission, not based on any “comprehensive statistics.” Moreover, it is in conflict with that of many other historians such as Urbański, Miernik, Meducki, Kopciowski, Piątkowski, whose findings were available long before she published her book in 2014, but which she was apparently unaware of.

Tatzref (talk) 00:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the well rationed analysis. I find it convincing (through I'd attribute “relatively many” to pl:Adam Kopciowski and "typical" to [41]), but few more items need clarification. 1) Quotes for number for outside Szczebrzeszyn, which seem to suggest that about 1/3 of Jewish properties were recovered: "the following examples also pertain to county towns in the Lublin Province: 281 applications were submitted in Zamość, 240 in Włodawa, some involving multiple properties, and 301 out of 894 former Jewish properties in Parczew were recovered by 1946.". 2) Regarding "Many claims were processed successfully the day they were filed" - this seems limited to Szczebrzeszyn, and I don't think we can use it to generalize to the entire Poland 3) "Numerous Jewish organizations and law firms outside of Poland submitted applications on behalf of non-residents." - true, through I don't see how relevant it is to this article (seems too detailed/undue). 4) I find your criticism of Meng and Cichopek-Gajraj interesting. WP:NOENG notes that English sources are preferable if they are equal or better quality that non-English. Logically, if those English sources are then of lower quality, the reverse applies... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:04, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

The English sources here are of a higher quality (Meng is widely cited - a 2011 work cited 79 times per scholar, published by Harvard UP, Cichopek-Gajraj (2014) is cited 23 times, published by Cambridge UP) - focusing on Poland (and elsewhere) as a whole as opposed to very specific and very small towns (Klucze i kasa which is a collection of micro-histories (very local focus in each study - valuable for very detailed local study, but almost impossible to generalize - findings vary in each chapter), and in Polish, has been cited 7 times to date per google scholar). As for Tatzref's text - "Perhaps of a third of pre-war Jewish properties were restored to pre-war owners or relatives" - is a gross misrepresentation. This is a WP:OR generalization (to entire Poland) based on approx. 70 properties in the small town of Szczebrzeszyn (population 5,299 in 2006), and furthermore misrepresents even those 70 properties - the source reads "at least one-third of them became owners, their heirs or other persons.". As made clear in Klucze i kasa - widespread fraud by Polish criminal gangs in receiving these initial decrees (which themselves did not grant actual possession - eviction of tenants was nearly impossible - so the typical result was a sale to the tenants at a very low price) - makes other persons a rather significant omission here. Frankly, this is about as bad as it gets in terms of OR and misrepresenting sources.Icewhiz (talk) 07:47, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

So... now you have a problem with microhistories and historians who generalize from a single locale to the entire country? Funny that you never brought that up when you were edit warring over Grabowski's number of 200,000. There is no misrepresentation or OR here. Stop making shit up. If you think something is being omitted, then maybe we can add it. But other than that the sourcing and the text is as solid as it gets.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:01, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

We should not generalize ourselves, this can be a WP:SYNTH problem. But if reliable scholars generalize, we can quote them. Klucze... may be a minor and new work on the topic, but it is a perfectly reliable one. Or do you think that scholars like [42] or pl:Adam Kopciowski are unreliable? Are they profiled by the SPLC too? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:24, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Klucze i kasa is a well regarded source - all be it far too deep in the weeds for this article (very detailed but also very-very local research - findings vary per courthouse (different chapters in the book)), and fairly little cited in relation to English publications (perhaps they'll translate at some point?) .... The text proposed for our article is a blatant misrepresentation of the contents of Klucze i kasa - which honestly notes the widespread fraud ("other persons" mentioned in each such courthouse statistic throughout the book, besides coverage of fraud), and that doesn't anywhere make a generalization that "Perhaps of a third of pre-war Jewish properties were restored to pre-war owners or relatives". Icewhiz (talk) 15:30, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

You will notice most of Tatzref's comments above have already been addressed; much of the rest is just "name dropping" without actual quotations, which isn't something we can build on. As for their comment on Cichopek-Gajraj - that's plain false. She does not give "anecdotal evidence", but examples of what she otherwise analyse and synthesize from dozens of secondary and tertiary sources; and on some occasions where she cannot give a convincing estimate or explanation, she doesn't. François Robere (talk) 18:18, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Endlessly repeating WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT in response to very detailed and well reasoned explanations is not "addressing". And ffs, their comments are a quotation after quotation after quotation so where in the world do you get "name dropping without actual quotations"??? Stop making shit up. How is it possible to even have a goof faithed discussion on this topic when two parties to the discussion, both on the same side of the issue, sit there and keep on insisting on something which is blatantly false? Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:01, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Hey Marek, my reply to Tatzref from today ([43]), as well as a batch of new sources I left downstairs ([44]) haven't been aswered yet. If you have an argument other than "you just don't like it!!!" feel free to start there. François Robere (talk) 20:41, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

No, he already answered you. You replied with something like "It doesn't sound like it to me", which is, like, almost verbatim of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:22, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Diff of reply? François Robere (talk) 08:59, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

I came to post my remarks about the book Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold (see below). I'll digress briefly to address some of the "new" points, which are simply a rehash of matters already amply addressed. Icewhiz wrote: "As for Tatzref's text - "Perhaps of a third of pre-war Jewish properties were restored to pre-war owners or relatives" - is a gross misrepresentation." That is not my text, to suggest that it is yet another or a disturbing pattern of misreps on Icewhiz's part. As for "widespread fraud by Polish criminal gangs", I've already set out complaints from Jewish organizations. Interestingly, they all complained of fraud perpetrated by fellow Jews. I even saw one from a Swedish organization to that effect. It would have been virtually impossible for an ethnic Pole to pose as a Jew and reclaim property. The Central Committee of Jews' own members were involved in property scams in Radom. See Łukasz Krzyżanowski, Dom, którego nie było: Powroty ocalałych do powojennego miasta (Wydawnictwo Czarne, Wołowiec: 2016), p. 307. The only large criminal gang that the sources refer to is the Jewish mafia ring that worked closely with Jews from the State Security Office in Białystok, among them Samuel Faber and Eliasz Trokenheim, who were eventually caught and punished. See Krzysztof Persak, “Akta postępowań cywilnych z lat 1947–1949 w sprawach dotyczących zmarłych żydowskich mieszkańców Jedwabnego,” in Wokół Jedwabnego, volume 1, p. 379–387. There used to be information about this in the article but, as I pointed out, it was removed. Wonder why?

The notion that Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold?: Studies of the Fate of Wartime Poles and Jews, edited by Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Wojciech Jerzy Muszynski & Pawel Styrna (Leopolis Press, 2012) is a self-published book is baseless. It’s an English language version of a book that was published by The Facto, a Warsaw publishing house (http://thefacto.pl/), in March 2011 under the title Złote serca, czy złote żniwa?: Studia nad wojennymi losami Polaków i Żydów. The book is a collection of essays by 14 authors, among them professional historians and academics such as Marek Jan Chodakiewicz (Institute of World Politics), Waledmar Chrostowski (Cardinal Stefan Wyszynski University), Piotr Gontarczyk (IPN), Wojciech Muszunski (IPN), John Radzilowski (University of Alaska), Peter Stachura (University of Stirling), Teresa Preker (University of Warsaw). Clearly the authors and publishers are not the same for either the Polish or English language versions, so the book is not self-published. This is all readily verifiable, so suggesting otherwise is a crude ruse. The collection of authors mentioned, their academic and professional credentials, as well as their numerous publications (look them up), all clearly indicate that this book meets the test of reliable source. They are by no means fringe or extremist. The fact that some reviewers have criticized the content is immaterial. A number of historians trashed Timothy Snyder’s books as alleged Holocaust “revisionism.”

Just last year, both Icewhiz and K.e.coffman concocted a similar attempt to discredit a major book, Sowjetische Partisanen, by historian Bogdan Musial, published by a renowned German publishing house and hailed by Yehuda Bauer as “a most important contribution” to the history of the war, the Soviet partisans, and Polish-Jewish partisan relations in Belorussia Yad Vashem Studies (vol. 38, no. 2). The book was removed from the “Bielski Brothers” article as allegedly “fringe” (!) and “SPS” (self-published sources) (!):

• • 06:16, 28 May 2018‎ Icewhiz talk contribs‎ 20,929 bytes +137‎ Highly questionable fringe SPS.
  • 02:29, 1 June 2018‎ K.e.coffman talk contribs‎ 19,592 bytes -659‎ Pls see Talk:Bielski_partisans#"Further_reading"
  • 07:16, 1 June 2018‎ Icewhiz talk contribs‎ 19,592 bytes -659‎ Undid revision 843878281 by GizzyCatBella (talk) No consensus to include this non-English fringe work

So, with all due respect, not only do they have no credibility in this regard but they are also involved in extreme POV.

The incessant attempts to smeer Chodakiewicz (and others mentioned) as “extremist” and “far right” are both hackneyed and unpersuasive. Invoking Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), a thoroughly discredited and corrupt organization, is a pathetic joke. SPLC was sued for falsely claiming that Maajid Nawaz was an extremist, paid US$3.375 million in settlement, and then pulled their list of alleged “extremists.” Niall Fergusson called SPLC a “phoney civil rights organisation.” http://www.niallferguson.com/journalism/miscellany/let-me-give-you-the-real-news-about-hate-crime Mark Thiessen wrote an article in the Washington Post aptly titled “The Southern Poverty Law Center has lost all credibility” (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-lost-all-credibility/2018/06/21/22ab7d60-756d-11e8-9780-b1dd6a09b549_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a9889d037724).

Furthermore, SPLC has no credentials to pass judgment on historical writing, so its views on Chodakiewicz and his writings are worth zero.

Suffice it to point out that Chodakiewicz’s monograph, The Massacre in Jedwabne, is one of very few publications of hundreds on Jedwabne that is cited and relied on by Peter Longerich, a leading German Holocaust historian, in his Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews (Oxford University Press, 2010). If Chodakiewicz’s scholarly publications are good enough for Longerich, they’re clearly good enough for Wikipedia. So enough of these baseless insinuations that are brought up again and again, as if they haven’t been addressed and discredited. They are a useless distraction.

Moreover, these and other baseless insinuations don’t in any way undermine the merit of Barbara Gorczycka-Muszynska’s article on postwar Polish legislation on abandoned properties titled “Whose Tenements? A Legal Analysis of the Status of Former Jewish Property in Light of Postwar Polish Law,” found in found in Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold (at p. 223–231). Gorczycka-Muszynska’s treatment of the legislative framework is not inconsistent with Skibinska’s, Meng’s or Cichopek-Gajraj, it is simply clearer, more accurate, and much more authoritative. Why? Because, as the book notes, she is a retired judge so she is far better placed to discuss Polish legislation than historians. Moreover, referring to her simply as a former judge is much too modest. She was a member of the Warsaw Province Administrative Court who was decorated in 2012 by Poland’s President Bronislaw Komorowski with the Commander’s Cross of the Order of the Rebirth of Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Polonia_Restituta) for her “outstanding services for the administration of justice, for shaping the principles of a democratic state of law and legal culture” (za wybitne zasługi dla wymiaru sprawiedliwości, za kształtowanie zasad demokratycznego państwa prawa i kultury prawnej). https://www.prezydent.pl/archiwum-bronislawa-komorowskiego/aktualnosci/ordery-i-odznaczenia/art,1152,odznaczenia-i-nominacje-sedziowskie.html The ugly innuendos being hurled at her, based on speculation as to whether she’s related to Wojciech Muszynski, are both irrelevant and highly distasteful. They are the lowest for of “smeer” tactics – totally inexcusable.

The allegation that Gorczycka-Muszynska’s article is somehow anti-Semitic because it contains (in a footnote) a quotation from the memoir of Shiye Goldberg, who succeeded in regaining several pieces of real estate in Lublin with the help of Polish witnesses, is bizarre. This spurious charge itself contains racist overtones. Cichopek-Gajraj and Meng’s books contain a proliferation of such anecdotal information.

As Gorczycka-Muszynska notes, the laws on abandoned property did not supersede the regular court inheritance procedure, which remained in place for any heir to access. The problem was that it was cumbersome and expensive. That is why the simplified, expedited and far less expensive laws on abandoned property were introduced on an interim basis, and this was done primarily for the benefit of Holocaust survivors and their close relatives. However, access to that process (limited to spouses, parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, siblings) was more restrictive than to the ordinary court process. As Gorczycka-Muszynska also points out, the hardest hit under postwar “land reform” and expropriation of industry were the owners of landed estates, almost all of whom were ethnic Poles, and the owners of large industrial and commercial enterprises. The former got no compensation and were given 3 days to vacate their property. She also pointed out that it was the Communist-run state that was the primary beneficiary of property that was nationalized, both Polish and Jewish, not ordinary Poles.

Interestingly, Alina Skibinska mentions a 1947 memorandum, “Survey of Restitution in Europe,” prepared by the World Jewish Congress, that covers 18 countries. She notes, “Rozwiązania prawne, procedury i okres, w którym obowiązywał uproszczony tryb odzyskiwania mienia, były podobne.” (“The legal solutions, procedures and the period during which the simplified mode of asset recovery was in force were similar.”) The only significant difference was that in Eastern Europe, i.e. the Communist bloc, certain categories of properties were nationalized. (Klucze i kasa, 569-570.)

I will address Laurence Weinbaum’s writings in my next post.Tatzref (talk) 01:18, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Icewhiz's remarks: "the source reads "at least one-third of them became owners, their heirs or other persons.". As made clear in Klucze i kasa - widespread fraud by Polish criminal gangs in receiving these initial decrees (which themselves did not grant actual possession - eviction of tenants was nearly impossible - so the typical result was a sale to the tenants at a very low price) - makes other persons a rather significant omission here."

Yet another misrep by Icewhiz. Skibinska text does not simply say "other persons", but as I pointed out earlier, “innym osobom za takowe się podającym,” which means "other persons holding themselves out as such." In other words, this refers to Jews posing as Jewish owners or their relatives in order to advance fraudulent claims. Virtually no one wanted to evict occupants, they wanted the court to accept their restitution claim, which, as Skibinska and others points out, allowed them to then sell the property, and this they did in almost every case. Property pries were depressed because of widespread poverty, their poor condition, and the very uncertain status of private property (threat of nationalization). Poles who bought property were taking a gamble. If the Jews believed otherwise, i.e., that you could make money buying these properties, they would be scooping them up themselves.Tatzref (talk) 01:36, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

1. You're yet to comment on some of my points above [45]. I've highlighted them for your convenience, and shall refer to them as "the previous thread" henceforth.
2. That is not my text What's your text, then?
3. I've already set out complaints from Jewish organizations Diff?
4. Interestingly, they all complained of fraud perpetrated by fellow Jews Both biased and wrong, as both your comments on the AJYB (#5 in the previous thread) and the sources below show.
5. I even saw one from a Swedish organization to that effect Quote? (@Volunteer Marek: this is what I refer to as "name dropping". Unless it's quoted somewhere in the thread, it doesn't exist.)
6. It would have been virtually impossible for an ethnic Pole to pose as a Jew and reclaim property Why is that?
7. See Łukasz Krzyżanowski, Dom, którego nie było: Powroty ocalałych do powojennego miasta (Wydawnictwo Czarne, Wołowiec: 2016), p. 307 Quote?
8. See Krzysztof Persak, “Akta postępowań cywilnych z lat 1947–1949 w sprawach dotyczących zmarłych żydowskich mieszkańców Jedwabnego,” in Wokół Jedwabnego, volume 1, p. 379–387 Quote?
9. There used to be information about this in the article but, as I pointed out, it was removed. Wonder why? I too wonder. Diff?
10. The notion that Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold?... is a self-published book is baseless Well, it's edited by Chod. and published by his own publishing house - the definition of WP:SPS.
11. It’s an English language version of a book that was published by The Facto, a Warsaw publishing house Would you characterize The Facto as an academic, journalistic or popular publisher? I reckon it's the latter, which means the book probably never went through independent peer review.
12. The book is a collection of essays by 14 authors I find it curious that so many of our discussions here - in this and related articles - result in the same names popping up: Chodakiewicz, Gontarczyk, Radzilowski, Stachura, Musial (also in German) and Mark Paul - another contributor who you forgot to mentions, but we'll get back to him later - a small cadre of cross-referencing scholars, who - unlike Timothy Snyder - aren't well known or well regarded outside Poland. I've linked the articles, so lay readers can get an idea of their positions (academic and other) on their own.
13. Just last year, both Icewhiz and K.e.coffman concocted a similar attempt to discredit a major book You'll notice K.e.coffman used the edit summary to direct editors to the TP; following that link shows a very different picture than what you're trying to portray: first off, the removal was actually done by Pinkbeast [46] on grounds of POV, relevance and reliability; K.e.coffman supported it on grounds of language and usefulness to readers; and lastly Icewhiz joined, supporting it for his own reasons which you never bothered asking about (if you had, you'd have seen this diff). All of this took place after you added two links to Mark Paul [47] - the same Mark Paul from before - who's a pseudonymic writer of unknown provenance, who isn't considered an RS here.
14. The incessant attempts to smeer Chodakiewicz (and others mentioned) as “extremist” and “far right” are both hackneyed and unpersuasive When approaching Chod. one first has to ask: Do you believe Icewhiz is an Israeli spy? Because Chod. more or less suggests it [48]. He also promoted the idea that Barack Obama is some sort of communist fanatic raised on Islam and extremist "Black power" ideologies [49]. That's not exactly "mainstream", is it?
15. Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), a thoroughly discredited and corrupt organization The SPLC is WP:GREL as far as Wikipedia is concerned [50]. If you want to argue against it, go to WP:RSN.
16. SPLC has no credentials to pass judgment on historical writing It doesn't, nor does anyone claim it does. The SPLC records extremists and extremist groups who are in the public eye, and Chod. certainly is given his political activities and popular writings. This is relevant to how we treat him as an historian as well, but even if it didn't - he received plenty of criticisms from within the field as well (see "reviews" and "criticisms" sections here).
17. Suffice it to point out that Chodakiewicz’s monograph... is cited and relied on by Peter Longerich No one said Chod. is always wrong, or never produced worthwile literature, and it's perfectly acceptable for Longerich to accept a particular narrative of the Jedwabne events and cite sources that support it. However, it doesn't change the fact that Chod.'s works are heavily criticized and haven't gained much traction outside of a narrow circle of like-minded scholars.
18. Gorczycka-Muszynska’s treatment of the legislative framework is not inconsistent with Skibinska’s, Meng’s or Cichopek-Gajraj, it is simply clearer, more accurate, and much more authoritative Maybe, but if it's published in a book that as far as we know did not go through independent peer review, then we've only your word to trust on its authoritativeness? Regardless, if it's not inconsistent with the other sources' - that is, we're not liable to introduce fallacies or inaccuracies by using them rather than it - then there's no real reason not to use them, if they suit us in other respects.
19. Because, as the book notes, she is a retired judge so she is far better placed to discuss Polish legislation than historians That's... arguable.
20. I can't comment on your claims regarding the discussion surrounding Gorczycka-Muszynska's use as a source here, as they lack context and I can't find them in the thread.
21. As Gorczycka-Muszynska notes... I'm not seeing anything in this par. that contradicts anything written by the other sources, or that's even relevant to this discussion. The Communist land reform isn't the subject of this article.
22. Alina Skibinska mentions a 1947 memorandum... We have other documents to this, and other effects. We also have some sources that explain that the realization of these policies was lacking.
23. Yet another misrep by Icewhiz I'm not seeing you actually disagree with Icewhiz. What did he misrepresent?
24. "other persons holding themselves out as such". In other words... Jews posing as Jewish owners or their relatives How does "other persons" in the source become "Jews" in your claim?
25. If the Jews believed otherwise, i.e., that you could make money buying these properties, they would be scooping them up themselves Again it's your understanding of events, not any of the sources' (see #4 in the previous thread), and it's suggestive as to what you yourself believe: that Jews coming back from the wastelands of the Holocaust had money, and choice - maybe even some "inside knowledge" - and just "preferred" to sell their homes, their businesses - whatever little they could've had - to strangers. This could not be further from the truth.

François Robere (talk) 15:10, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Laurence Weinbaum, who continues to be cited in the article, is not a RS. His essay in the book “The Plunder of Jewish Property during the Holocaust" (New York University Press, 2000), is dated, refers to no sources in the brief treatment of postwar property, and is replete with flagrant errors (p.101). Unclaimed “abandoned” property was nationalized not at the end of 1948, but at the end of 1955 (Gorczycka-Muszynska, Golden Harvest, p. 228; Cichopek-Gajraj, Beyond Violence, p. 73.) The claim that “except for individual cases, the Polish authorities blocked the return of Jews from DP camps” in contradicted by leading Holocaust historians. (Yehuda Bauer estimates that some 15,000 Jews returned to Poland from camps in Germany. See The Nazi Holocaust: Historical Articles on the Destruction of the European Jews, volume 9 (Westport, CT, 1989), p. 527.) There was no new succession law enacted on October 8, 1947. Intestate succession (under the law of March 8, 1946) was not “restricted to father, mother, descendants and the surviving spouse,” but also included siblings and grandparents. Weinbaum managed to make all these errors in just ten lines. As for Jewish returnees from the Soviet Union, Weinbaum failed to notice that many of them settled in the territories acquired from Germany and “receive[ed] material compensation on the same basis as Polish resettlers from the East.” (Dariusz Stola, Robbery and Restitution, Berghahn Books & United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, 2007, p. 244). Not surprisingly, neither the latter book, nor Meng’s Shattered Spaces, nor Cichopek-Gajraj’s Beyond Violence refer to Weinbaum’s article (based on a Google search). Moreover, Weinbaum is not an independent historian. He is the mouthpiece of the World Jewish Congress (WJC), for whom he works as a research and editorial officer. The WJC is a decidedly Jewish nationalist organization with an aggressive restitution agenda. Israel Singer, the Secretary General of the WJC at the time, who wrote the preface to this book, declared that Poland would be “publicly attacked and humiliated” unless it gave into Jewish restitution demands. Avi Beker, the editor of this book, is the Director of International Affairs of the WJC and Executive Director of the Israel Office. It’s clearly a POV effort.

I had another look at Robere’s long and growing list of queries and have come to the conclusion that any significant matters they raise have already been amply addressed in my lengthy posts. Suffice it to say that a scholarly consensus has emerged among historians who have actually carried out in-depth research into court records -- Krzysztof Urbański, Grzegorz Miernik, Stanisław Meducki, Adam Kopciowski, Sebastian Piątkowski, Mariusz Bechta, Alina Skibińska, Łukasz Krzyżanowski -- that large quantities of property were returned to Jews in 1945-1948 throughout Poland. The historians that claim otherwise have carried out no such research and appear to be aware of this body of highly reliable scholarship.Tatzref (talk) 04:13, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

More sources

Allow me to introduce a few more sources and quotes to the discussion:

Extended content

Bazyler, Michael; Gostynski, Szymon (2018). "Restitution of Private Property in Postwar Poland: The Unfinished Legacy of the Second World War and Communism". Loyola of Los Angeles International and Comparative Law Review. 41 (3): 273. Retrieved 2019-05-12. "After the war, many Jewish survivors left the country never to return, and those who stayed were often threatened if they attempted to recover their property."" (Citing Monika Krawczyk) "Krawczyk further describes how people manipulated the Polish legal system in the early post-war years by getting false witnesses to confirm the death of former Jewish property owners so that persons who were not the rightful heirs could purchase the property. These false acts pre-vented real heirs from being able to make legitimate claims." (Quoting Kraw.) "After liberation from the German occupation, assets lost by the Jews during the war could be reclaimed. This was facilitated formally by the legislation passed in the early years of independence. However, it was far easier, in practical terms, for Jews returning from camps or from hiding to regain possession of their property in large towns and cities than in small towns and villages. Jews returning to their family homes tended to find other families already living there, and they were often met with aggression, death threats or even murder. Exhuming mass graves and stripping corpses was the final form of plunder of Jewish property by their Polish neighbors. Terrified by such behavior, Polish Jews would often decide to leave the country in search of a new future abroad." (Quoting Halik Kochanski) "The state passed a series of decrees during 1945 which placed ‘abandoned and formerly German properties’ under state administration, but many of these ‘abandoned’ properties had been owned by Jews, who faced the prospect of court action against the state to reclaim them." The paper also criticizes Poland for being "the only EU country and the only former Eastern European communist state not to have enacted [a restitution] law," but rather "a patchwork of laws and court decisions promulgated from 1945-present." The post-socialist city: urban form and space transformations in Central and Eastern Europe after socialism. GeoJournal Library. Kiril Stanilov (ed.). Dordrecht: Springer. 2007. ISBN 978-1-4020-6053-3.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link) Similar criticism of a lack of defining legislation on the matter Numbers the total restitution (or "re-privatization") claims filed in Poland by 1992 at 65,000. States in several places that, due to socio-political reasons, the Catholic church, trade unions and other "major organization" received preferential treatment on this matter. It later states that: "The flexible and highly individualized regulations... have promoted the advance of clientelism as oftentimes the procedures that quickly lead to successful restitutions may not be traced back... Once established, the dominance of powerful individuals or certain interest groups may hardly be reversed. This situation works to the disadvantage of claimants who possess little social resources and few contacts with the higher-ups." And yet later: "Why, for instance, has the Catholic Church been restored its property while Jewish individuals and institutions have to take court action with no promise of success? In Poland, re-privatization is primarily settled in administrative courts, which demands a lot of activity on the part of the claimant and therefore privileges those who are able to mobilize a large quantity of economic, social, and political resources." Stola, Dariusz (2008-01-01). The polish debate on the holocaust and the restitution of property. pp. 240–255. "The authors of the [1945 and 1946] decrees did not conceal the fact that these restrictions had been imposed with, among other things, the possessions of murdered Jews in mind. During the debate in the Krajowa Rada Narodowa [National Council] (KRN), a temporary legislative body set up by the communists, the restrictions were justified, among other reasons, by a warning that without them there was a danger of enormous wealth being concentrated in a few hands. Such a concentration of wealth would, the proponents of the restrictions claimed, firstly be unjust and economically unproductive and, secondly, cause a rise in antisemitism. Therefore, the combination of low survival rates (i.e., the efficiency of the Nazi “Final Solution” in Poland) and the restrictions imposed by the 1945 decree meant that most of the property of the victims of the Holocaust was classified as “abandoned.” Consequently, it came under state administration and after a time (five to ten years) was nationalized." "Even if someone from the restricted circle of direct heirs had survived the war, there were many difficulties preventing them from regaining their inheritance." The author mentions the need to prove the claimant is the last remaining hair of a (now deceased) owner as one of those difficulties, and continues with a sad and absurd anecdote which I encourage you to read in the original (p. 245). "The fact that various persons took over “formerly Jewish” property without acquiring a legal title had a fundamental influence on Polish-Jewish relations after the war. Jewish people who returned to their apartments or shops often came up against the open hostility of those who had taken over these assets at the time of German occupation, convinced that the Jewish owners would never return. Accounts of homecoming Jews being threatened, assaulted, and even murdered are sufficiently frequent in survivor accounts and official reports published by Jewish organizations in the first years after the war that one may assume that such events were quite common. Nevertheless, they should not be interpreted as simply a continuation of prewar anti-Jewish behavior... " Similar criticism as before on lack of comprehensive restitution law. Notes "prejudice against and antipathy toward Jews still present in Polish society" (2008) as another difficulty standing in the path of restitution, specifically to owners or heirs who are foreign nationals. "This is fed by marginal, but obsessively active antisemitic organizations and publishers, and it is sometimes exploited or tolerated by more prominent factions and political figures." And later: "The question of restitution is in many ways connected to the question of Polish-Jewish relations, their history and remembrance, but particularly to the attitude of the Poles to the Holocaust." (for more info on the current situation, see Jewish space in contemporary Poland. Erica T. Lehrer, Michael Meng (eds.). Bloomington, Indiana: Indiana University Press. 2015. ISBN 978-0-253-01506-8.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)). Cichopek-Gajraj, Anna (2014). Beyond violence: Jewish survivors in Poland and Slovakia, 1944-48. New studies in European history. New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-03666-6. Notes that in the first few months of 1945 restitution (or something to that effect) may have been easy, but as early as August 1945 the JOINT that "the new economic tendency of the Polish government... is against, or at least makes difficulties in, getting back the Jewish property robbed by the German authorities." "Undoubtedly, Polish restitution law [as of 1947] was as generous on paper as it could have been at the start of nationalization and land reform in Eastern Europe... The implementation of the restitution law, however, was uneven and contingent on the region and the rural or urban character of a community. More property was returned in the urban centers than in the countryside, but even in cities restitution was far from successful. In the villages and small towns... restitution was almost non-existent as Jewish survivors were to scared to pursue their claims. Murders were not uncommon as Jews were easy targets - lone individuals with no community to protect them." Case in point: Abram Berliński from Jastrzębie: "He had a mill which he was able to recover in 1945. In April 1945, an armed group broke into his house. Berliński and his relatives escaped to the forest. The relatives were later hunted down and killed. The local authorities concluded that the attackers wanted the mill. Soon after, Berliński left the village for good and a leaser took over his property. Then follow several reasons for why survivors in the cities might not have wished to, or couldn't, go through the process of reclamation, which conclude with "only a small fraction of survivors, perhaps a few thousand, perhaps less, attempted to go through the troubles of restitution." "Municipalities administered most abandoned and nationalized property after the war, and were the foremost obstacle in the urban restitution... Municipalities could also sell property if maintenance was too expensive... more often, however, the municipality 'assigned' the property management to well-connected individuals or public institutions." Proceeds to suggest that Jews were at a distinct disadvantage compared to non-Jews with respect to restitution: "The Association of Jewish Artisans... struggled to take physical possession of its prewar building, [which was[ administered by the municipal department of social welfare [and] was allocated to nuns... The nuns did not want to leave the building even after the district court ruled in favor of the Association... The Association was reluctant to use force, fearing a rise in antisemitism if 'the Jews kicked out' nuns." The source then gives various details on the fees and records that were required to file a restitution request during the early years following the war, which were expensive and difficult to obtain, and usually required CKŻP aid. But apparently even those weren't enough: "Having found the necessary records and witnesses, hired good lawyers and paid fees, and even having won their case in court, a claimant could still not be certain of success. The so-called 'interest of the state economy' and 'public interest' clauses were most commonly cited to prevent restitution." Gross, Jan Tomasz (2007). Fear: anti-semitism in Poland after Auschwitz ; an essay in historical interpretation. A Random House trade paperback (Random House trade paperback ed ed.). New York, NY: Random House. ISBN 978-0-8129-6746-3. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help) Notes the difficulty faced by Jews who, during the war, gave various items to neighbours and friends for safekeeping, only to discover when they returned that they refuse to give them back. Notes that many of these cases ended in court, and the filers often asked that the case be adjudicated even in their absence: "For already in May 1945... Jews were running away from Poland, fleeing for their lives to, of all places, Germany." And later: "One would wish for a climate of compassion, especially among close acquaintances, toward the few returnees whose communities and families had just suffered an unspeakable calamity. But compassion was absent. Indeed, there was no social norm mandating the return of Jewish property, no detectable social pressure defining such behavior as the right thing to do, no informal social control mechanism imposing censure for doing otherwise. This is why Jews who dared to pursue the matter had to resort to the courts." And then: "Jewish property had been taken by people all around, and it was not a specifically Polish behavior by any means... But there had been many more Jews in Poland than anywhere else, many more had been killed, and therefore the phenomenon was much more widespread." He then gives several disturbing accounts that I suggest reading in the original. Denburg, Stephen A. (1998). "Reclaiming Their Past: A Survey of Jewish Efforts to Restitute European Property". Third World Law Journal. 18 (2): 233. Notes the relative ease with which the Catholic church managed to reclaim some of its property - by means of a designated law - and how "unlike the restitution of Church property, the idea of returning property to former Jewish owners has been met with a decided lack of enthusiasm from both the general Polish population as well as the government." He does not ascribe it necessarily to "latent antisemitism", but a popular fear that "restitution would only return Poland's upper class to their prewar social status" seems unsatifactory, and is suggestive of underlying prejudice. Notes that the Polish gov. had only recently (1998) and "grudgingly" started moving towards restitution of communal Jewish property for reasons of "international stature" and "foreign investment."

Other than that, I of course completely agree with Icewhiz. Tatzref is trying to introduce here a false narrative based on careful cherry-picking, and mostly fails to address the criticism. As an obvious example, take his quote of The American Jewish Year Book of 1947 [51]: When confronted with a conflicting quote from the year book of the following year [52] he completely ignores the contradiction, instead trying to deflect the criticism (in a completely off-topic fashion) towards the Jews [53], before again quoting the same source that was just contradicted [54]! Draw what conclusion that you may from this. François Robere (talk) 17:39, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

That's fine, and we can discuss what to include from these, but in the meantime, please don't remove *other* material that's also based on reliable sources from the article. Your mischaracterizations of Tatzref's extended and exhaustive explanation for their edits is quite simply wrong. For example you write that he "tries to deflect the criticism "towards the Jews"". You italicize the phrase "towards the Jews" as if it was a quotation from Tatzref or something. And you back it up with this diff. Except... there's nothing "towards the Jews" in there. In fact, it's kind of hard to figure out what exactly you're going on about since that comment is very long. There's 5+8=13 points there. I don't even know which one you're objecting to. It looks more like you're just making a random accusation (insinuation?) then slapping a random diff at the end. That's not how this works.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:30, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

See #5 in that diff - out of the blue comes an accusation that Jews "racket" in property not their own, which is completely irrelevant to what he was asked in the corresponding section (#5) of the previous message, and he never actually replies to what he was asked. He did read it and he did "aim" for it - as evident by the reference to "communal property", which first appears there - but he didn't address the actual contradiction before repeating the quote in his next message. Now please, tell me more about misrepresentation! François Robere (talk) 08:58, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Only Russian Partition is mentioned-since 2009 this issue hasn't been addressed

As I mentioned already in 2009 we don't have a section on Prussian Partition [55] --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 01:16, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I think that may be a better fit in History of the Jews in Germany - which already covers Jews receiving Prussian citizenship in 1812. Poland's borders obviously have changed quite a bit - e.g. I don't think we should discuss in this article Pinsk (in the Kresy) after 1945. The Polish partition in the Russian empire had some unique characteristics keeping it apart as a political/administrative entity (Congress Poland) - the Prussians folded it into their empire.Icewhiz (talk) 09:05, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

This Wikipedia is biased

Please compare categories

Category:Antisemitism in Poland - hundreds of pages

Category:Antisemitism in Slovakia - 7 pages

Slovakia was idependent during WWII, it deported all its Jews to gas chambers. Xx236 (talk) 11:04, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Slovakia is also much smaller... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:35, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Hundreds of times smaller?Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Tensions and antisemitism

This is an encyclopedia, not a propaganda office. Please stop.Xx236 (talk) 11:43, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

With the influence of the Endecja party growing - with the number of imprisoned Endecka politicians...Xx236 (talk) 11:46, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Jews were often not identified as Polish nationals - please explain how the Jews identified themselves.Xx236 (talk) 11:47, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Matters improved for a time - 9 years of about 20 is for a time.Xx236 (talk) 11:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

SYNTh

These sentences:

"Hundreds of Jews were murdered in anti-communist violence.[236] The best-known case is the Kielce pogrom of 4 July 1946..."

constitute an improper WP:SYNTH. The Kielce pogrom had nothing to do with "anti-communist violence". It erupted on the basis of a blood libel. So you can't say that it is a "best-known case" of "anti-communist violence" as the two sentences suggest.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:36, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

I think the issue is that we're labelling the massacring of Jews as "anti-communist violence" - while some very nationalist sources use this language, the anti-Jewish violence is generally referred to as anti-Jewish and not anti-communist. Icewhiz (talk) 08:09, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Actually the Engel source does discuss "anti-communist violence". But the whole point is that Kielce wasn't. Do you think David Engel is a "very nationalist" source? Really? Wow.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:08, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Killing policemen or informants was "anti-communist violence". Xx236 (talk) 09:38, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Engel refers to anti-Jewish violence. He mentions anti-communist feelings as one of many possible causes, but uses anti-Jewish throughout.Icewhiz (talk) 05:30, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property

The majority of Jews survived the war abroad and they returned after the war, so they weren't exactly survivors of Holocaust. They were surviviors of war exactly like millions of Poles were. Xx236 (talk) 07:41, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

It's a fair point. Jews who left Poland before the WWII started should not be called Holocaust survivors. But we need a source to discuss the demographics of surviving Polish-Jewish population. I think one is in the text, at least I've recall adding something on this few months ago. If anyone wants to continue this, numbers are needed so we can consider if this generalization is correct or not. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:42, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

No, that's actually not a fair point. First off, since sources generally refer to them as Holocaust survivors. Sources might be doing so since while they fled (or were deported) in the early phases of WWII (1939-1941 - in and of itself Holocaust related)) - they often fled not so far away - often into Western USSR - and were affected by the subsequent German advance. The Holocaust occurred throughout German occupied Europe. Icewhiz (talk) 09:35, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Generally the term "Holocaust survivor" does indeed include those individuals who managed to flee German occupied Poland and survived either in USSR or in Soviet occupied Poland ("Western USSR" lol!). The usage of the term in literature however is by no means uniform.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:41, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

In Western USSR I was referring not to the Kresy (whose classification here may be debated given the annexation to the USSR) - but to pre-1939 USSR (Ukraine, Belarus, parts of Russia) - in which there was widespread shooting of Jews (e.g. Babi Yar near Kiev), Maly Trostinets extermination camp near Minsk, internment in ghettos, and transport to extermination camps. Jews who managed to escape Poland (as opposed to those deported to Siberia) often did not escape far enough to leave the area that would become German-occupied Europe throughout which the Germans and their accomplices carried out the Holocaust. The survival rate outside of Poland was, however, generally higher due to local Polish particularities (e.g. see this piece by a USHMM historian).Icewhiz (talk) 05:12, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

This piece, which does make a genuine attempt at balance, mentions neither survival rates nor any "Polish particularities" (sic) behind these. It's unclear what your purpose in linking this article is.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:10, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Interesting. Anything ever came out out of this? "Israeli Parliament is now considering a bill that would criminalize minimization of Polish collaboration in the Holocaust." Did this law pass or is still under debate? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:45, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz, quoting such extremely biased text is shooting in your own foot. It's a shame to be so dumb to write such trash and to quote such trash. The writer ignores German terror and Jewish collaboration (if we accuse the Blue police, why not the OD?). All Americans lack knowledge about Europe and the writer seems to be a perfect American ignorant. BTW - The Atlantic isn't academic.Xx236 (talk) 11:44, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Ghetto inmates are generally seen differently. The writer is a historian at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum - and would seem rather qualified.Icewhiz (talk) 13:09, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

"seem rather qualified" - you don't dare to support her, you use "seem".Xx236 (talk) 07:24, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Kielce - fathom.com

@Tatzref: - please provide a rationale why this source is reliable. After you do that, please provide quotations that support: " response to the Kielce atrocity was rapid", "sentenced to death on trumped up charges within 7 days;". Icewhiz (talk) 06:07, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz, your bias is a big as Mount Everest. Xx236 (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

You don't care to google an academic source, which takes 1 minute. https://www.academia.edu/29540235/Cold_War_History_The_Kielce_Pogrom_1946_and_the_Emergence_of_Communist_Power_in_Poland Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Even larger than K2? There is an abundance of sources on Kielce pogrom. Any quotations supporting the language and assertions here? Particularly "trumped up"?Icewhiz (talk) 08:12, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Generally people reject the truth about them, they need a therapy to accept it. See Freud. Xx236 (talk) 08:45, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Are Jewish victims more important than ethnic Polish ones? The "case" would be revised in USA or Israel. Xx236 (talk) 09:19, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz, please my edit carefully and don't misrep what I did. This is what I restored: "The Communist government's response to the Kielce atrocity was rapid. Special investigators were dispatched and military tribunals formed." This what I added: "within 7 days." So obviously the words "trumped up" are not mine. I would've used different words like "sham trials." The reliability of the source (again not mine) has been addressed. These facts are so well known to historians and beyond dispute that I'll simply set out what is found on the website of POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews, which is produced by scholars and researchers -- and tell me if 5 days for a trial and 3 more days to execute 9 "randomly chosen" people is too slow to count as a "rapid" response, and whether this measures up to any remotely reasonable standard of due process:

https://sztetl.org.pl/en/towns/k/399-kielce/116-sites-of-martyrdom/46870-kielce-pogrom:

"Several dozen people were arrested in Kielce in the wake of the massacre, including policemen, soldiers of the Internal Security Corps, civilians and representatives of the local authorities. Twelve of them were hastily tried on 9 July 1946 – nine were sentenced to death and executed on 12 July 1946, and the remaining three were given long prison sentences."

Bibliography:

Antyżydowskie wydarzenia kieleckie 4 lipca 1996 roku. Dokumenty i materiały, eds. S. Meducki, Z. Wrona, vol. 1-2, Kielce 1992-1994.

Szaynok B., Pogrom Żydów w Kielcach 4 lipca 1946, Warsaw 1992.

Wokół pogromu kieleckiego, vol. 1, ed. Ł. Kamiński, J. Żaryn, Warsaw 2006.

Zaremba M., Wielka trwoga. Polska 1944-1947. Ludowa reakcja na kryzys, Kraków 2012.

Żyndul J., Kłamstwo krwi. Legenda mordu rytualnego na ziemiach polskich w XIX i XX wieku, Warsaw 2011.

https://www.polin.pl/pl/aktualnosci/2017/07/04/71-rocznica-pogromu-w-kielcach-4-lipca-1946:

"Po krwawych zajściach aresztowano kilkadziesiąt osób, w tym milicjantów, żołnierzy Korpusu Bezpieczeństwa Publicznego, cywilów i przedstawicieli władz lokalnych. Spośród nich dwanaście przypadkowo wybranych osób zostało pospiesznie osądzonych już 9 lipca 1946 r. – dziewięć skazano na karę śmierci, którą wykonano 12 lipca 1946 r., a trzy otrzymały wyrok długoletniego więzienia."

GOOGLE TRANSLATION: "After the bloody incidents, several dozen people were arrested, including militiamen, soldiers of the Public Security Corps, civilians and representatives of local authorities. Of these, twelve randomly chosen persons were hastily tried on July 9, 1946 - nine were sentenced to death on July 12, 1946, and three were sentenced to long-term imprisonment."Tatzref (talk) 03:54, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

So - they were not executed within 7 days (I count 8). Nor is trumped up charges supported. The cited source says "was initially decisive" - not "rapid". The communist authorties justice was certainly selective - they did not try all the perpertrators for murder - just a few selected people - their response was certainly far from comprehensive - or as the cited source says "Despite the authorities' inadequate response to the pogrom". And why is this source, misrepresented in your edit, even reliable?Icewhiz (talk) 05:17, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Please stop misrepresenting me or the sources cited. As I pointed out already, the words "trumped up" are not mine, but could well be supported by the fact that the persons the authorities prosecuted were "randomly chosen" from among the crowd. The other source cited, historian Anita Prazmowska, is quite explicit: "The PPR's response to the events in Kielce was swift." Is there a difference between "rapid" and "swift"? See https://web.archive.org/web/20090307025436/http://www.fathom.com/course/72809602/session3.html Tatzref (talk) 15:40, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Ryszard Śmietanka-Kruszelnicki, recognized as a leading historian on the Kielce pogrom, clarified the following in Wokół pogromu kieleckiego (Warsaw: IPN, 2006):

37 Jews and 3 Poles were killed;

the trial of 12 accused Poles started July 9 and ended July 11, with death sentences against 9 persons who were executed the following day (p. 42);

it appears that the 12 accused were selected randomly (p. 42);

both the charge and the justification for the sentence alleged a conspiracy by the anti-Communist underground, even though that charge was never proven (p. 42 & 45) – so calling the charges “trumped up” has a basis in fact. The person who entered this text knew their facts, the person who removed it didn’t.

The article can be found at: https://www.academia.edu/38542263/Smietanka-Kruszelnicki_R._2006_Pogrom_w_Kielcach_-_podziemie_w_roli_oskarzonego_in_Kami%C5%84ski_%C5%81._%C5%BBaryn_J._eds._Wok%C3%B3%C5%82_pogromu_kieleckiego_Warszawa_p._25-74.pdf

Tatzref (talk) 03:57, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Doean't support trumped up. Merely supports authorities were not close to comprehensive in trying all the members of the murderous mob (which was much larger than 12).Icewhiz (talk) 05:08, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Shouldn't we mention the Jews who were part of the "authorities"? A reader may believe that the "authorities" were Polish nationalists.Xx236 (talk) 06:50, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

"the Jews who were part of the "authorities"" - what pray tell are you suggesting precisely? Icewhiz (talk) 06:53, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Please learn history of Poland to discuss it. Jakub Berman, Józef Różański,Roman Zambrowski, Hilary Minc. Adam Humer was a bystander of the Kielce pogrom.Xx236 (talk) 07:37, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Some of the people you mention weren't Jewish (nor quite bystanders), and others had little to do with Kiecle. I fail to see how mentioning random Jewish (and not Jewish) members of the communist party is relevant here. Icewhiz (talk) 09:06, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

weren't Jewish - wow!

They weren't members only, they ruled Poland together with Bolesław Bierut (Berman, Minc), controlled the terror system (Różański). Humer participated in the events.Xx236 (talk) 09:21, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Merriam Webster defines "trumped up" as "fraudulently concocted". The charge included the allegation that the accused were part of an anti-Communist underground conspiracy, which was bogus and never proven yet appeared in the reasons for verdict. It is apparent, therefore, that at least that aspect of the charge was fraudulently concocted, i.e. trumped up. Moreover, not everyone in the crowd was a murderer. Most were gawkers. At least one of them was shot by officers or someone else in the building before the rioting started. By selecting person to charge from among them randomly, there is a very high risk of being wrongfully accused. When you add this to the sham trial and lack of due process, it moves closer to a certainty. End of discussion.Tatzref (talk) 23:25, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

WP:OR. Cited source (reliability of which I am uncertain) says "Despite the authorities' inadequate response to the pogrom". The more significant aspect here being that most of the Polish killers were not punished at all.Icewhiz (talk) 06:09, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

It's not OR, it's paraphrased. Just like arguing over whether it was 7 or 8 days is a pointless distraction. It's entirely possible that there was an inadequate response to the pogrom AND that the people who were "punished" were "randomly chosen" innocent bystanders. It was Stalinism. Not exactly unheard of.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:03, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

"traditional religious Jew-hatred" ?

Ritual-murder beliefs are not part of the Christian religion, but rather a superstition. Pope Innocent IV took action against the blood libel already in 1247. According to Marcin Zaremba [56], Jewish organizations reclaimed Jewish children from Christian helpers, which may have created anti-Jewish beliefs. Xx236 (talk) 09:29, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this is a pretty weirdly (and very non-neutrally, not to mention non-precise - at the very least, I don't think that we find Jew-hatred in Judaism, for example...) worded phrase. Would need an inline cite and a quotation, IMHO. For now I concur we should remove it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:18, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

No, the traditional nature of the post-war blood libel claims should not be removed - this is supported by cited mainstream sources.Icewhiz (talk) 06:36, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

"blood libel" is not "religious". The Papacy generally opposed them, although it had problems in enforcing its opposition. Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

The Papacy has never exclusively defined what beliefs might be related to Christianity. —DIYeditor (talk) 07:13, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Is "blood libel" part of Christianity? Sources, pleaseXx236 (talk) 07:21, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Just pointing out the flaw in your argument. Jewish organizations reclaimed Jewish children from Christian helpers, which may have created anti-Jewish beliefs, your own words, mention Christianity in this context, so maybe you should ask yourself. —DIYeditor (talk) 07:30, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

If Jewish organisation reclaimed children from helpers, it's rather obvious that it generated conflicts. It's not a religious problem, but human. I haven't invented the fact, it's decribed in Zaremba's book. Xx236 (talk) 07:57, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

And as you admit the pivotal difference between the groups of people in question is their religion. —DIYeditor (talk) 08:40, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

No. The pivotal difference is between loving and offering your life for a child versus an organization. Generally adoptions are valid. Sometimes birth parents try to revert them, but I don't know any law allowing organisations to do it.

There existed a parallel problem - Polish children were adopted by German families, sometimes Nazis. Some of the Germanized children were returned to their teribly poor families, demoralized by the war. Other children weren't returned and some of them are unhappy about it.

Let the childrren speak: http://www.dzieciholocaustu.org.pl/szab51.php?s=index3.php Xx236 (talk) 09:01, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Death punishment

Since October 15, 1941. https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/kara-smierci-za-ukrywanie-zydow-wywiad-z-prof-andrzejem-zbikowskim Xx236 (talk) 07:05, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Komisje Specjalne

After the Kielce pogrom Jews organized armed militia Komisje Specjalne, about 2500 members. The Komisje are described by Alina Cała. I don't have access to the original text. https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=561576Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

The subject has to be mentioned. If you don't, I'll do it myself using my poor English.Xx236 (talk) 06:00, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Quotation request

Please provide the original paragraph, translation and sources for "unproductive and parasite factors". The source ([57]) references a Hebrew-language PhD thesis for this. In any case, I don't think a PhD thesis research should be used for such claims. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:40, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

The peer reviewed journal article reads ""The severe limitations placed on the possibility of reclaiming private property only further emphasized the extent to which the new legislation affected the status of Jewish property. In contrast to the pre-war law that allowed second-degree relatives the right to claim property, under the new, postwar regulations only the original owners or direct heirs could ask for restitution.22 In light the scale of the destruction of Polish Jewry, regaining Jewish family assets was to become an almost impossible task. Jewish leaders understood this problem very well and led the protests against the new legislation.23 Polish officials did not try to conceal that the change in the inheritance laws were aimed mainly at preventing the restitution of Jewish property.24 As the then Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs explained of the new legalization in October 1945: ‘We will not permit some foreign Jews, for instance Argentinian Jews, to inherit property in Poland.’25 In internal discussions regarding the formulation of the new laws, some of the participants argued that their purpose was to prevent the concentration of too much wealth in the hand of ‘unproductive and parasite factors’ and to preclude the inheritance of property by ‘distant relatives in Argentina who engage in despicable jobs.’26". This is a secondary, peer reviewed paper in an academic journal. The request to verify a source's citations is without a policy basis - the peer reviewed journal verified this (journal articles may reference primary material - e.g. archives, speeches, and do their own research). I will note that similiar quotes appear in other sources - particularly quotes referencing Argentenian Jews (at times - calling them pimps) to inherit.Icewhiz (talk) 06:13, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

For a controversial, red flag and likely undue quote like this, please cite the work cited in the journal, i.e. the PhD thesis. I would like to see what sources does it cite for that quote, of any. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:48, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

There's nothing red flag in that quote. While we could cite the PhD thesis as a source (allowed per WP:SCHOLARSHIP - reputable academic institution) - a journal article in English is very much a preferred citation (both in general, and due to WP:NOENG - preference of English language sources) - there's really no reason to cite the PhD thesis. Furthermore I'll note that you are requesting here not a quotation (I think it is fairly safe to assume to quote was copied correctly from A to B) - but citations inside the citation (which could possibly lead us to a chase multiple level down - contents of the citation of the citation of the citation of the citation.....) - which is WP:OR. Icewhiz (talk) 07:28, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Results of WP:OR (citation hunting) - thesis - The specific quote is from AAN, KRN 9, sesja 7, 3-6.5.1945, pp 240-241 (there is also a "despicable Argentinian" quote on page 249 in the session - a motivation which was subsequently repeated by the Polish Foreign minister in New York on October 1945). This is the protocol of the session of the State National Council from 3-6 May 1945. KRN = Krajowa Rada Narodowa, AAN = Archiwum Akt Nowych. The thesis discusses the May meeting (leading to the 1945 decree) in pages 238-240 (246-248 in the PDF). The protocols of the KRN should be easy to verify, though I am unsure they are available online in digitized form. Icewhiz (talk) 14:15, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Do you suggest that the KRN was Polish? It was Soviet, with a small contribution of useful idiots.Xx236 (talk) 07:17, 13 May 2019 (UTC)