Talk:Kherson Oblast

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Irredentist POV pushing with maps

In regard to this edit and related ones. No. Crimea is "disputed" in the sense that Russia claims it. But Crimea is still internationally recognized as part of Ukraine, like it or not. If anything, the UN condemned the Russian occupation of Crimea. Until that changes, it's POV pushing to claim that Crimea is "disputed", especially in an infobox where it's impossible to provide context. If you want to explain the details behind the occupation in text, that would work, but this article isn't the place for it.

It makes some sense to have a map which marks Crimea differently in main articles, such as Crimea, Ukraine and Russia. But to spread that to every single Ukraine-related article is just irredentist and nationalistic POV territory marking. It's disruptive and tendentious. This supposed "consensus" that the edit summary refers to was relevant only to the main articles; Crimea, Ukraine and Russia. Territory marking on all these other articles is just obnoxious. Stop it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:29, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is ridiculous to say that calling Crimea a disputed region is POV pushing. The whole point of calling it a disputed region is for NPOV as it is disputed between Ukraine and Russia, which both claim it as part of their own territory. Russia doesn't just "occupy" the region, it effectively administers it as part of its own territory. Not the entire international community recognizes it as a part of Ukraine, although most of it does. The UN resolution was not unanimous, there is still a small number of nations recognizing it as a part of Russia. The maps don't depict Crimea as an integral part of Russia and neither do they depict it as an integral part of Ukraine, because it is a disputed region between the two governments and the only NPOV thing to do is to depict it as such. --Leftcry (talk) 02:01, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the international community, as represented by the UN does recognize Crimea as part of Ukraine. There's a couple of Russia's puppet states that don't. So what? It's a fringe. That's exactly why this is POV - it's putting the views of a fringe on the same footing as mainstream view. It IS an integral part of Ukraine. Please stop it with the nationalist edits with these junkety POV maps.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:25, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The UN doesn't own the entire international community and although most countries are a part of the UN that doesn't mean that they don't have a right to their own sovereign decision. It's not just "a couple of Russia's puppet states", it's completely independent and recognized sovereign governments such as Afghanistan, Venezuela, Nicaragua and some others. Saying that the entire international community recognizes Crimea as Ukraine is simply like saying those sovereign states aren't a part of the international community. The UN, as an organization, may recognize Crimea as Ukraine but it doesn't speak for each country's own recognition. Wikipedia does not treat Crimea as an integral part of Ukraine and neither does it treat it as an integral part of Russia as either of those stances are POV pushing which is why it is treated as a disputed region for NPOV. You may think of it as an integral part of Ukraine, but that is your personal opinion and you should not POV push and remove NPOV maps per WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Also stop claiming I am the one making nationalist edits by showing Crimea as a disputed region as you are the one who is trying to edit against NPOV by showing a disputed region as an integral part of a country. Also don't assume that just because I reverted one of your edits on a different page that I did so for revenge. I did so because I thought that your edits on that page were completely dubious, however that's a different discussion. --Leftcry (talk) 02:39, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You tell in edit summary here that "There was a consensus long ago, right after its annexation by Russia, that Crimea will be depicted as a disputed region on maps and articles." Could you please provide any link to discussion which resulted in WP:Consensus as you tell? My very best wishes (talk) 16:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There were a number of discussions regarding Crimea and maps that took place mainly on Talk:Ukraine, so there isn't just a single one that I can link here as there are more than one, however the final consensus reached was to treat Crimea as a disputed territory on Wikipedia as that is NPOV. You are free to look into the archives and read those discussions which took place right after Crimea's annexation. I myself did not participate in them as I was not very active on Wikipedia at the time, however I believe User:Iryna Harpy was one of the people who did participate, so maybe she can help you find the most relevant discussions. --Leftcry (talk) 20:47, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You said there was a discussion with consensus about this, but you can not provide any links to discussion(s) supporting your statement. If this is the case, I should assume there was no in fact such consensus and possibly revert your edits about this. My very best wishes (talk) 21:24, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Did you even read my reply? I just said there were a number of discussions not just a single one, so linking just one would not show the complete situation. Then I told you that User:Iryna Harpy was one of the people who participated in those discussions, so she can help with finding the most relevant one of those, however I'm sure that if you want to understand the entire situation you would have to read quite a few of them. They are all located in the archives of Talk:Ukraine, just go look for yourself. --Leftcry (talk) 23:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I can attest to the lengthy RfCs regarding the use of a map depicting facts on the ground on the Ukraine article. While there was much in the way of dispute as to WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NPOV, etc., the general consensus is that Crimea is a disputed territory, therefore denial of well publicised public knowledge is POV. Crosshatch depictions of disputed territory is the norm, therefore I would agree with Leftcry that it is a realistic manner in which to treat all of the regional maps depicting Ukraine.

Rather than turn this into an ongoing bone of contention, I would invite EvergreenFir, NeilN, Ymblanter, DeCausa, Jim.henderson, TaivoLinguist, Toddy1, Super Nintendo Chalmers, RGloucester, and Sameboat to comment if they're interested (and prepared to do so, naturally). As you can see, I've asked a mixture of neutral and interest parties to toss in their 2¢ worth. If we can't sort it out here following policy and guidelines, perhaps the issue should be put to the community via an RfC. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:37, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's obvious the ownership of Crimea is disputed. Russia occupies and administers it, Ukraine wants it back. The U.N. is, as usual, toothless in the matter - it cannot change reality and say no, there's no dispute. Maps showing the states of Ukraine should indicate the territory is disputed. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:48, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that in articles specifically about the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, or the few top level articles such as Ukraine and Crimea, it makes sense to depict Crimea as disputed. But going through and changing every single map of Ukraine in fairly minor articles such as this one is just tendentious POV pushing and territory marking.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:05, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Editors should not pick and choose which articles have maps which show it as disputed (or not). It should be consistent in all articles. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 01:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it should, and I fixed it. I did not ask anyone to discuss. That was a very simple question, specifically to Leftcry. If he tells something, I thought he could support his words by a link to a relevant discussion with alleged consensus. So far no one provided a single link to any discussion with consensus about this. That's fine, I just wanted to be sure. My very best wishes (talk) 01:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone here except for you and Volunteer Marek said that the maps should show Crimea as disputed and what Ism schism meant is that these maps should be consistent with the ones on the main articles. You didn't "fix" anything, you did the complete opposite and started editing against consensus. For the third time, if you want to see the many discussions regarding Crimea and maps which took place after Crimea's annexation then go to Talk:Ukraine and look through its archives. There were many discussions and linking just one would not show the entire situation so I strongly encourage you to go there and look through all of them if you really do want to be sure. --Leftcry (talk) 02:27, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]