- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Darkfrog24 is attributing that a novel doesn't contain a specific scene to the novel itself. I think that this is a gross misuse of citation because the novel doesn't explicitly state anything like that. He's also misinterpreting WP:PRIMARY where it states "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source" as being every factual statement about the primary source rather than factual statements made by the primary source itself (the point of citing the source).
Similar misuse of citation have been discussed at talk:Breaker of Chains#Novel itself as a primary source
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
At the previous discussion talk:Breaker of Chains#Novel itself as a primary source, a third opinion was requested.
How do you think we can help?
An clear explanation of what citing a source involves and an explanation on using primary and secondary sources properly would probably be helpful.
Summary of dispute by Darkfrog24
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The contested text is as follows:
≈"Content from this episode is also found in chapters X, Y, and Z of the book." (Restored to three articles.)[2]
"The scene at the end of the episode, which shows what the white walkers do with Craster's sons, does not appear in the book." (Restored to Oathkeeper.)
I restored this text, which had been added by a previous editor and deleted on grounds of being unsourced. I also added citation tags for the novel A Storm of Swords and for web-based secondary sources (one of which Jack S has questioned as unreliable). Users DonQuixote and Jack S objected to the citation of the novel, claiming both sets of text are OR and removing the tag, sometimes the whole passage. I believe that the tag should stay because 1. this isn't OR and 2. the novel is where I got the information; the websites were after the fact. There is precedent for using a novel as a primary source in a "differences from the book" passage.[3]
WP:Primary states that primary sources can be used for "straightforward descriptions of facts that are readily verifiable by any educated person with access to the source." I don't see how "[event] happens in chapter X" and "[event] does not occur in the book" are anything but straightforward facts. If this article were about an adaptation of Johnny Tremain, I'd be able to cite the book and say, "This story is set in the 1770s" and "Paul Revere appears in this book." It is no different to say, "This story is not set in the present day" and "George Washington does not appear in this book." The only question is whether the content is relevant. DQ has argued that if I cannot cite a specific page number, then that "proves" that I am "using the source improperly."
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
When DonQuixote claimed OR, I reworded the passage so that it no longer claimed that the episode was "based on" the novel but only "contained content also found in" the novel.[4] DQ continues to argue that the reference to the novel must be deleted on OR grounds.
I suggested rewording the section so that it reads, "[specific event occurs] in chapter X" and letting the readers see that the episode and chapter have the same content on their own.
DQ requested a third opinion, and the respondent, DiegoM, agreed with me, citing MoS:PLOT and WP:FICTIONPLOT.[5] A fourth participant, Jack S, did not.
How do you think we can help?
Answer the core questions:
1. Does WP policy allow the use of a novel in an article about material adapted from that novel? Specifically, does it allow statements like, "This episode includes content also found in chapters X, Y, and Z of the novel"? What about "Character A performs action B in chapter #Z"? I'd love it if WP:Primary addressed this issue explicitly because I plan to add more such material to more articles.
2. Is required to continue citing the primary source if another source is available? Is it required that the reference to the primary source be deleted if another source is available? If neither of these things is required, then which is better?
3. Does WP:Primary permit negative statements such as "This scene does not appear in this book" and "This character does not appear in this chapter"?
Summary of dispute by Jack Sebastian
Darkfrog and Diego (another involved contributor in another GoT article with precisely the same problem as here) have been consistently argue that they can compare differences/similarities between the aforementioned episode of Game of Thrones to the source material contained within GRRM's book, A Storm of Swords. The contention that Darkfrog makes is that since the Storm of Swords is a primary source, we can use that to source differences between the episode and novel. Additionally, he proposes using as a source Westeros.org, which has been found, via enquiry at RSN, to be less than reliable and more a treasure trove of fancruft. When these malformed additions are removed as per policy, Darkfrog and/or Diego adds them back again (about least five times over the past three days). They think that the comparison they want to make is free from the citation requirement. Imo, the user cannot. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
It has been pointed out several times to both Darkfrog and Diego our way of applying sources as well as the definition of reliable sources and the problems posed by edit-warring. While the users haven't been rude, they have certainly proven resistant to recognizing our guidelines and policies, and both Diego and Darkfrog had to be made aware of the end consequences of edit-warring in the article. Diego has proven himself willing to treat reverting like a game, which makes him rahter impossible to reason with.
The matter pivots, imo, on Darkfrog's and Diego's understanding of sourcing. The comparison he wants to make needs to be cited to a reliable source explicitly making that comparison. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How do you think we can help?
Ideally, Diego and Darkfrog could hear from other editors to guide them in their understanding of both sourcing and BRD. This is occurring in two articles thus far; without education, I could easily see them expanding this misunderstanding to many, many other articles. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:02, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Diego
I want first to summarize my position without intermediaries. Made from arguments grounded on Wikipedia policies, it’s the following:
- The inclusion of plot elements from the book in the episode’s plot is not a comparison, as no relation between both is expressed in words; only verifiable facts are asserted in the notes, and those facts can be found in the source used as reference.
- It is not original research, as every word can be easily verified by the reader with the sources provided. For the only relation that could be inferred from the juxtaposition, the idea that the TV episode is based on the book, we have secondary reliable sources of the best quality supporting it.
- Jack Sebastian and DonQuixote have not convincingly explained how removing those notes would make the article better, so I see no reason for removing it.
I see that Jack Sebastian above thinks (while making veiled and not-so-veiled threats) that I’m playing games by requesting that all editor’s positions are held to the same standards and all arguments are heard. This is unfortunate, as rational discussion and not imposition is how we are expected to proceed to achieve consensus.
For my part, I consider that both are misusing policy by insisting that they are the only ones that know how to read the rules, and anyone disagreeing with them is therefore ignorant. I find that attitude unhelpful for consensus-building, as well as condescending, and I hope they drop it in order to move fordward.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I participated following a request for a third opinion at Talk:Breaker of Chains#DRN. I have tried a wording that addressed DonQuixote’s expressed concerns about using words in the article that don’t appear in the references, but this hasn’t been enough to reach a compromise.
How do you think we can help?
I don't expect this mediation will help arrive to a consensus, as the positions of all editors are too entrenched. I hope that it at least will serve to achieve a thorough mutual understanding of each other’s position, which should be the basis for the next step in dispute resolution, asking for wider input from the community. Diego (talk) 09:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
talk:Oathkeeper#Clear violation discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Hello and welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm Mark Miller (formerly Amadscientist). While I have no authority or special powers I can assist in this filing if no one objects. Diego and Dark Frog sounds familiar but may be from other DRN filings of similar subjects. (edit) I have to recuse myself as I declined the Game of Thrones first GA nomination and that makes me involved and explains why the names sounded familiar.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:15, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have been reading through the dispute and am familiarizing myself with the discussion but, before I go on I would like to mention that, at the core of this dispute is an interpretation of WP:Primary. This could be something to refer to a number of different boards but since this does also involve original research and perhaps other issues, we might as well at least give some comments. Resolving this to me may be at different levels depending on which editor you are.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:08, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- For me, the issue is simple: why not use a secondary source? As primary sources are used to provide "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts", we would be on safe round by saying something happened in a book, because the book is the primary source. If we wanted to compare it to something else - and despite the sophistry to the alternative, that is precisely what is occurring here - we would need a secondary source to make that comparison, as per policy. Having that secondary source also avoids most of the questions of triviality and OR (ie. how is this important to the article, and who says it is important?). I submit that primary sources cannot be used to describe differences or similarities between two media, even if one is based upon the other. We as editors are not citable. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:17, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- There was a secondary source. In some cases, there were two. But why not also retain the reference tag citing the primary source? It's where I actually found the information, and it is almost by definition the most reliable source possible. Part of this is less about the text itself and more about you and DQ removing the reference tags supporting that text.
- Also, since you've questioned the reliability of the secondary sources, the issue of whether the primary source alone is sufficient backing for the text is relevant. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:46, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not going to clutter up the discussion with repeating my points. The only secondary source I've purposely removed (and I'd reinstated the valid two mixed in amongst the wrong ones in one article) is Westeros.org. It isn't a reliable source, as it mostly contains user-driven content. Removing this only leaves you with the primary source we are contesting the usage of. The one from IGN appeared to be pretty nifty; why not use that instead of turning all of this into a knife fight? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:59, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually it leaves me with the primary source and the other secondary sources, and you keep deleting the text anyway. If one of the sources is not sufficiently reliable, then that's all the more reason to cite the novel. As for the IGN article used in Oathkeeper, it doesn't list chapters by number. Did you mean a different source? Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:38, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Why do you insist on making me repeat myself? I do not care if the material is in the article, so long as it is cited to a reliable secondary source. Citing the book is not adequate to the task, as it is a primary source, and requires you to evaluate its usage in the series. I keep removing your usage of the book source as reasoning for you adding chapter to episode articles. You should clue in on that. All we need to resolve this is secondary references from reliable sources that explicitly state what you want them to. If you don't have a source that says that x chapter of Storm of Swords appeared in Breaker of Chains or Oathbreaker, then you cannot say it does. Period. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:48, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not making you do anything, Jack. In this case, WP:Primary allows us to use a reliable primary source. You may notice that the text doesn't read "The chapter appeared in the episode" but rather "Content from this episode can also be found in." There is a difference between disagreeing with your personal interpretation of the rules and "not cluing in." And yes, I've noticed that you keep removing the citation. You should stop doing that. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:10, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- This will be my last comment on the subject, barring new input. Darkfrog24, this is not about me, so stop making it personal. This is about the policies and guidelines we all choose to follow while editing in Wikipedia. The policy you are only partially comprehending allows us to use primary sources when discussing the source material. Anything outside the scope of say, describing a novel via passages and chapters of said novel, require secondary referencing. You are seeking to conjoin the tv episodes to the books from which they partially came. You need a secondary reference to do that. This is not me saying this; Wikipedia is pretty clear on the matter. It is because of this that I remove the primary source from an article not discussing the subject of the primary source. I will keep doing that. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:18, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- When your post says, "Why do you insist on making me," and "I keep removing your" and "what you want," and "if you don't," I'm not the one making it personal.
- Yes, I used a primary source when discussing source material. I did not perform any analysis, comparison or interpretation. I have repeatedly suggested wordings that would address your concerns. I have found secondary sources that you don't bother to read. Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:52, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Here are a few things that might actually help:
1. Can anyone cite any policies that explicitly state that primary sources may or may not be used in the ways they've been used here? (Participants in this dispute have read WP:Primary and are interpreting it differently.)
2. Can anyone cite any precedent articles? Do other articles about adaptations cite the book for information in the ways under discussion here?
3. Can anyone cite any precedent disputes? Have there been previous discussions of this issue in which a consensus was reached? Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- EDIT: Wow. Turns out if you plug either "differences from the book" [17] or "is not in the book" [18] into the search bar, a whole lot of stuff shows up. I wish I'd thought of this last week. So I'd still like to see stuff on policy and previous disputes, but is there precedent for interpreting WP:Primary in a way that allows using novels as sources on their own material in adaptation sections and making negative statements? Yes there is. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:13, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow, indeed. Some of the articles including primary sources for comparison include a Good article and a Featured article! So far for these comparisons not being allowed by the rules. Diego (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I would observe that both of the articles cited achieved their respective statuses in 2007, and the GA did not even have the "Differences" section at the time. I think it would be dangerous to assume that the standards that were in effect at that time necessarily still apply. More recent instances would set a better precedent. DonIago (talk) 13:46, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- This discussion at WT:FILM from 2011 and the ensuing RFC might be relevant to the discussion as well. DonIago (talk) 14:04, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- There was also this RFC in 2013, which resulted from a DRN filing. While this one deals with a "Historicity" section rather than a "Differences from novel" section, I believe there might be a reasonable argument that the principle is the same. DonIago (talk) 14:18, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for finding those discussions - at least this can provide some new perspectives outside this little group. I'll give them a good read. Diego (talk) 14:40, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- No problem at all. I hope the situations I linked to can provide some helpful insights. DonIago (talk) 15:18, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I would submit that no valid examples exist, as they are usually caught and corrected by experienced editors. My resistance to using primary sources to reference book chapters used within a tv series is that it forces an editor to evaluate the episode to determine which chapters of the book were used within the series (initially, some editors used Westeros.org to support this content, but Westeros has been determined to be a non-reliable sourceWikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_169#Westeros.org). Secondary sources "contains an author's interpretation, analysis, or evaluation of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources". The source that Diego Moya and Darkfrog24 wish top use is the book. Darkfrog24 has admitted to wanting is to compare the book to the episode that contains elements and/or plot points from one or more books. Diego Moya has noted that he has no issue with this sort of analysis:
- "Introducing a comparative analysis of how the scenes are treated differently in both media is original research without a secondary source, but merely citing that something happens in a chapter in the book is not different to writing a plot summary using the work as the primary source…"2
- This is telling, imo. Plot summaries are exempted from citation as per WP:TVPLOT, usually because the primary source that is the episode itself is eventually agreed upon by editor consensus and pruned over time of any interpretations. To that end, chapter and sections from other sources are in fact prohibited from plot summaries. That leaves the citing of chapter and section in the production section.
- DF and DM both argue that the comparisons they are making are simply "observable fact" and exempt from citation, especially since they can use the primary sources of the novels to support their assertions. In my opinion, this is an incorrect application of both our sourcing policy and guidelines as well as WP:NOR. Their disconnect, I think, is that they fail to realize that the mere act of sussing out which chapters were used in an episode is, by definition, an analysis. Determining what is or is not in an episode is a comparative evaluation. These are both explicitly prohibited by NOR:
- "Articles may make an analytic or evaluative claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source."3
- As Donlago has noted, our policy has evolved over time, becoming better at utilizing sources appropriately. There may very well be articles that are in need of updating their sourcing methods, and we tend to clean these up over time. That said, our policies seem pretty clear on this matter. Diego Moya, Darkfrog24 and a mysterious IP supporting them need to provide a reliable secondary source. The content they wish to add is very specific; therefore, the references need to be equally specific and explicit in its cited content. Considering the popularity of the series, I cannot imagine this being a huge problem. Certainly not one chewing up the time and noise/sound ratio of several editors for over three weeks. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:01, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know why I didn't just look there earlier, but MOS:FILM does have a section on this that would also seem pertinent: WP:FILMDIFF. I believe the discussion that led to the creation of that section occurred here. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 16:09, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- EDIT: WP:FILMDIFF says that sections listing differences between the book and its adaptation are "discouraged," but does not list OR as a reason (in the discussion, views were mixed on that point). However, the text under dispute doesn't do that. It merely tells the reader what the source material was. WP:FILMDIFF seems to say that full sections discussing the minutiae of similarities and differences between the TV show and the novel would only be okay if lots of secondary sources did so--not because of OR but because that establishes notability--but it doesn't say, "Don't tell the reader what book or what part of the book was used." So the statement about the white walkers might be out, but what about, "Content from this episode is also found in chapters X, Y, and Z"?
- The conclusions I'm drawing from the discussions that have been cited are these: 1. The main issues are relevance, context and presentation. 2. Some people think that listing the differences between a novel and its adaptation is OR and some don't. 3. When providing text on differences between the novel and adaptation, don't use a list; use prose (so the sentences in question would be acceptable as far as formatting is concerned). 4. Using primary sources alone to say why things are different is not okay (but the content in question doesn't do that). 5. Unlike the precedent articles, these discussions do not address the propriety of using primary sources for negative statements, like "X is not in the book."
- Jack, don't tell lies about what I did and did not say. I said that I want to show the readers what parts of the book to reread to find the material from the episode. I did not characterize that as a comparison and have repeatedly said that it is not. We are in agreement that primary sources may not be used for analysis. The issue is whether or not, "This episode contains content also found in chapters X, Y, and Z" is analysis.
- On a similar note, none of the three comments in that discussion actually say that Westeros.org isn't reliable. I'd agree that the novel itself and other secondary sources used are certainly more reliable, but the question of whether Westeros.org is reliable enough isn't addressed there. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:22, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to try not stepping on anyone's toes here...I'm trying to limit my participation in this to being an information-provider rather than a more active participant, especially given that I am a DRN Volunteer but don't want to step on the toes of anyone coordinating this situation.
- Anyway, it looks to me like we have some agreement in general terms, which is awesome. With regards to a statement such as "Content from this episode is also found in chapters X, Y, and Z", my feeling would be that it shouldn't be included unless a secondary source noted it...and ideally it would be nice if there was some discussion regarding why it wasn't included. When we're adding "differences", we should, IMO, be asking who considered these differences important...and if the best answer we have is that -we- consider the differences important, I don't think we're making a good case for inclusion.
- I hope that makes sense on some level and that I successfully avoided anyone's toes in the process. DonIago (talk) 17:17, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- (edit conflict)Addressing each of your points, point by point, Darkfrog24:
- "The main issues are relevance, context and presentation" - this is the disconnect. The main issue is the use of primary sources to make claims that require secondary sourcing. I think you know this, because you use phrases like "WP:FILMDIFF seems to say". You must think there is wiggle room in what sort of source you can use. Your claim that removing the phrases 'comparing' and 'does not appear' changes the intent of the addition is disingenuous (at best), and @DonQuixote: pointed that out to you days ago. You and Diego Moya point to chapters in the book that have correlations, calling them "observations", but that observational analysis is "yours". This is indisputable, since the typical reader is likely to not be aware of the specific chapters as they relate to the episode. Since the episodes are drawn from all 6 (or all, depending on the interviews) of the books, it requires more than just casual observation. Since we cannot use your expertise (as wiki editors are not citable or noteworthy) in All Things GoT, we need sources that talk about these differences.
- "Some people think that listing the differences between a novel and its adaptation are OR and some don't" - the implication here is that the balance between these two is 50/50, or that it is some sort of gray area of the rules. It isn't; it's listed all over Wikipedia, from the Five Pillars to the various essays on using sources.
- "When providing text on differences between the novel and adaptation…" - this is truly telling, imo. You have admitted yet again that noting differences is your intent, and not providing the reader additional resources. In point of fact, as the book is a source for the episode, we list it in the 'SeeAlso'. We aren't here to think for the reader.
- "Using primary sources alone to say why things are different is not okay, but the content in question doesn't do that" - at least two other editors are in agreement that this is semantics. The content is in dispute because it is a comparison and an evaluation. The series draws from a larger body of material than just the published books, as both story creators and writers have openly admitted.
- "these discussions do not address the propriety of using primary sources for negative statements, like "X is not in the book" - that is because it is of secondary concern. Of primary concern is the use of primary sources to make any statements about the series in an evaluative, comparative manner. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:43, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- 1. Does WP:FILMDIFF mention OR issues at all? No it does not. Does WP:FILMDIFF mention other issues? Yes it does. The discussion that led to WP:FILMDIFF included people who thought using primary sources was OR and those who did not. Eventually, that group of people decided that OR issues would not make the cut for inclusion in the rule.
- 2. If any part of the Five Pillars or these essays say that using primary sources in this way is OR, please provide a link and a quote. That would be very relevant.
- 3. No that is not what I meant by that. I was repeating something that seemed common in the RfCs cited--in which they talk about lists of differences--and giving an example of how it applied to our case--formatting. The preferences for prose over lists means that the formatting of the disputed text is okay or at least wasn't specifically objected to at that time. Please stop claiming that I "admitted" this or that. The words that I actually used are right here on this page. Scroll up if your memory fails you. If you don't know what I meant, ask me.
- 4. As for my "primary sources alone to say why things are different" comment, it is 100% true. The statement "Content ... chapters X, Y, and Z" doesn't say that anything is different. It says that things are the same.
- 5. No that is not our primary concern. No one has argued that primary sources should be used to make comparisons or evaluations. The concern is whether "Content from this episode can be found in chapters X, Y, and Z" is an evaluation or not.
- Jack, we would get further if you would stop acting as if your views have already been proven or accepted. No one's arguing that primary sources should be used to make comparisons or perform analysis; we all agree that they should not. Your own take on the matter is that the disputed text involves a comparison and from there you jump to "Other people think it's okay to use primary sources to make comparisons." You think that wanting to show readers where to find source material is a comparison, so you jump to "Darkfrog ADMITTED about wanting to make comparisons." That's not what's going on here. It would be as if I said, "Jack says we should never use primary sources for ANYTHING!" That's not really what you're saying and presumably not why you disagree with me. You know how the jury's out on the exact pathogen that caused Black Plague? One of the suspects is Yersinia pestis. If I say, "This patient has Y. pestis," you don't get to say, "Darkfrog said the patient has Black Plague!" We'd need to establish that Y. pestis causes Black Plague first. There's a step in the middle that you keep skipping: We need to establish whether "Content from this episode is also in chapters X, Y, and Z" is a comparison. That is the issue. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:56, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- FILMDIFF actually weakens your argument for inclusion of primary sourcing. When you are told something is discouraged, it means you try very hard not to do that thing. It is not tacit approval to proceed. That's like saying, 'green light means go, red light means stop and yellow light means go very fast.' Examples aside, FILMDIFF isn't on point here, as WP:FILMDIFF doesn't allow for primary sources whatsoever (though, curiously enough, it does note that secondary sources are to be used). You are extrapolating/imagining anything else beyond that.
- You could start with Neutrality; your advocacy of adding comparisons (based upon the personal experiences of having read and viewed both media) without a reliable source in support of them doesn't seem very neutral ("Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong."). Then there's No Original Research, wherein, "you can't make a point that hasn't already been directly made somewhere else in a reliable source. You can summarize, but it has to be based in the sources". Of course, who could forget about good old Verifiability? You are using a primary source in support of an argument that the primary source doesn't advocate (unless you can bring forth a statement from any of the books that discusses differences between it and the tv series - or anything about the series, for that matter). I could go into essays, but a great many of them offer differing - and often contrary - points of view. You should feel compelled to bring forth a single essay that advocates primary sources over secondary ones; I'd love to see it.
- I am not going to make this personal, but are you stating for the record that you never admitted you wanted to compare the two to show the differences for the reader? You might want to check your own posts before answering.
- Whether you say they are the same or different, or - and this is critical for you to understand - say nothing at all, simply placing the chapters next to events or stating that the episode was drawn from them is in fact a comparison, an evaluation. You cannot do that without secondary sources saying precisely that. Secondary sources can make those claims - you cannot.
- This is one of the areas where I think you are unaware of how others perceive your use of primary sourcing to add chapter content. You do not see the addition of the material as evaluative or comparative. That is the core of the problem, imo. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:17, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- 1. FILMDIFF says that the inclusion of full sections describing differences between the adaptation and the original version is discouraged. It does not mention primary sources or their use at all. It does not mention single lines telling the reader what the source material was.
- 2a. I am not advocating adding comparisons at all. I am advocating adding a single sentence telling readers which part of the book contains content also in the episode and of the use of primary sources as sufficient for this. I am not advocating that primary sources be used to add editors' personal opinions, interpretations, viewpoints or any of the other things you've listed; we are in agreement on those issues. Please stop bringing up matters that are not in dispute as if they were. It's a strawman argument. They inflate the thread and distract people. Your time would be better spent making your case that the sentence "Content from this episode can also be found in chapters X, Y, and Z" is someone's personal opinion, viewpoint or comparison. That is what is disputed.
- 2b. Similarly, no one is arguing about whether primary sources are better than secondary sources. This is not an either-or issue. The question is whether a primary source A) is sufficient on its own for material like this and B) should continue to be cited alongside secondary sources that later become available.
- 3. For the umpteenth time, my position is that saying "Content ... chapters X, Y, and Z" is not a comparison.
- 4. Make your case. Cite policy. Cite an example. Do anything other than state your opinion as if it were fact.
- 4b. Taking my own advice: Let's use visual images (also allowed under WP:Primary). If I can say "This painting depicts George Washington" and "This coin depicts George Washington," then it stands to reason that I can say "The man in this painting is also depicted on this coin." This is just a fact. It does not advance a viewpoint. It is not an analysis. It does not push any interpretation. I'm not saying that the coin was struck based on the painting or the painting modeled off the coin. I am not saying that Washington looks more resolute on the coin or more handsome in the painting. Similarly, no one's stating that Sansa gets better lines in the episode than in the book or that Jaime looks happier than on the TV show or even noting how the Jaime-Cersei scene is consensual in the novel but not on the show (at least not in that section). Those are comparisons. The disputed text only says that the book has a Jaime-Cersei scene. Open up the pages and there it is, clear as Washington's face on a quarter.
- 5. I believe I have a reasonable understanding of how you, DQ, and Diego see this matter. You are correct that I don't see this as a comparison. If you want me to, see point 4. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:51, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've made my case. So has DQ. So have you…repeatedly. No one's minds are being changed. Maybe we can all now stick a cork in it and allow some uninvolved folk to weigh in on the matter. Sit back and have a cup of tea. - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 03:15, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- No, Jack. No one has made the case for why recognition of two things is the same as interpretation of those two things or why stating a fact is the same as making a comparison. No, going "Well it just is" does not count as making your case. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:39, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- As I mentioned above, I don't think it matters whether one calls it recognition or interpretation, and I feel that may be missing the forest for the trees. I think it's a matter of establishing that the comparison is non-trivial and that individuals other than Wikipedia editors took note of it. We do that by providing sources. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 04:49, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, Don. How would you address the George Washington issue? Why do you think that interpretation and recognition are equivalent in this case? Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:08, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not saying that I think they're equivalent; I'm saying that I think dwelling on that is a distraction from more productive ways of addressing this dispute. DonIago (talk) 14:30, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
DRN volunteer needed
DRN VOLUNTEER MODERATOR NEEDED--This case has no moderator. If one does not show up soon I will have to close this case. DRN is not a substitute for the talk page.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:05, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- That would be a shame. I'm somewhat tempted to volunteer myself, but under the circumstances I fear I've probably turned myself into an involved party (I was also involved in at least one of the discussions I cited earlier, so it's probably clear that I have some bias). DonIago (talk) 15:27, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The case has been open for a week. Has any common ground been identified? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:42, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Possibly. There are two sets of text in dispute. It's been established that one of those two sets, the white walker statement, is subject to WP:FILMDIFF. The issue of whether the statement is OR remains unresolved, but it's been removed from the article--by one of the authors who was arguing for its inclusion. None of the other three authors have commented on this either here or on the article's talk page as of now, which may not be a bad thing, so technically we don't know that there's common ground, but it would be reasonable to guess so.
- For my part, I don't consider Doniago an involved party, but I'm not sure how that term is being defined in this case. He is the one who pointed out that FILMDIFF applied to this case, which produced results. He also located a precedent dispute and discussion. I don't see why he doesn't get to give his take on the matter as well. Bias or no bias, he did his share of the work. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't consider Donlago an involved party, either, but I am respecting his decision to wait for a less involved party to help out.
- There are several points of common ground, but the ones in dispute are hanging up two different articles, and quite possibly more down the line. Consensus divides within the aforementioned two articles on two points:
- Do evaluative statements concerning differences between the novel and the series (thus inviting comparison) require secondary sourcing, or can primary sources regarding the book be used to note those differences?
- Are we as editors allowed to add this material and consider it important without secondary sourcing?
- These two questions have sucked up the resources and time of four different editors. Darkfrog24 and Diego Moya seems to understand that secondary sources are preferred, but are willing to cite the book to indicate (and therefore compare) differences between the book and the series. Don Quixote and myself adopt a 'don't fix what ain't broke' point of view: if you are making comparative or evaluative statements, then you need to cite them.
- And thus, three weeks. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:59, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- My opinion, and feel free to take this as a DRN Volunteer stance if you want to (but I'm not explicitly saying that anyone should)...is that based on the precedents I reviewed, secondary sourcing should be provided. It's not a matter of whether the statements are evaluative; it's a matter of demonstrating that the points being brought up are considered significant not just by WP editors, but also by independent sources. A lot of the time Wikipedia editors only look at sourcing as a means of satisfying verifiability policies, but in many cases it not only can be should be used to establish not just that event X occurred, but that a reliable source considered the event significant in some manner. If a tree falls in the woods and no reliable sources take note of it, neither should Wikipedia.
- I'll remind everyone that DRN is a non-binding forum; if you wish to take my stance as a conclusion of any sort (and I'd prefer to hear from at least one other DRN Volunteer that what I'm saying satisfies them, because I'm fairly worried I'm being more than a bit unorthodox here), and it's one that you disagree with, there are always other options, such as an WP:RFC. DonIago (talk) 14:30, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks DonIago for your input. The core of this situation is one where we intended to add basic information to content that was already included without a secondary reference -at least in my case, it's basically an index to locate where the summarized plot points appear in the original media-, just as sentences in the Plot section are allowed to be created. Any decision as to what content is significant for the article has already been made at this point.
- What is contested is not that secondary sources are better when available (nobody disputes that), but whether *all content without them should be eliminated*, i.e. whether the rule is a zero-exceptions requirement, which is what you're asking to do here. I don't agree that verifiable facts that are allowed elsewhere should be deleted because they're located at the wrong article, regardless of how benefitial they are. The discussions linked by DonIago show that this is a contentious subject that has been debated from time to time in the past, with several editors making some of the same exact points than Darkfrog24 and I have made, and without a clear consensus either way. There's a twist, nevertheless: those previous discussions concerned with detecting differences between both media, and this situation is about their similarities - reporting that the same content appears in both. The first question that Jack makes might therefore be answered differently depending on the context and purpose for including such content; this particular point (similarities between the film and the book) was deliberately considered different from comparisons with history or other more complex statements at this archived discussion (BTW, I would have agreed with the outcome of The White Queen RFC that the comparisons with history were SYNTH, but my core position has always been that it's an significantly different situation).
- The second question ("are editors allowed to add this material without secondary sourcing") is a resounding YES!, as long as it improves the article - we have a policy explicitly created to allow such changes. Jack doesn't seem to understand that rules are not followed for their own sake, but for the benefits they provide when writing articles; all Wikipedia rules are not laws but recommendations, which ultimately amount to "do what's best, and explain why it's the best". The process would greatly accelerate if you recognized that Ignore All Rules is "a standard that all editors must normally follow", acknowledged that rules are considered good practices because of the ways they make the encyclopedia better, and started debating the changes for the benefits or drawbacks they may provide to the article, instead of for their possible degree of compliance with some rules that have never been a hard requirement. I'm afraid that, despite our several requests to explain how exactly their interpretation of the Original Research policy would create an idea that was harmful for understanding the article (i.e. what is the "original thought" introduced), neither Jack nor DonQuixote have provided a reason why the version without the chapter references is any better, other than "because then it would follow the rules". Please note that I'm not arguing here that OR should not apply - I'm saying that you haven't made a good case as for why it should apply. Diego (talk) 16:26, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- (edit conflict)@Diego Moya:, you should feel entirely free to link those previous discussions that ended in "no clear consensus".
- And I'll point out that Jack does in fact understand what rules are for. He also understands what consensus is. If your fellow editors think that you need to supply a secondary source to material, you (Diego) need to understand that it is in everyone' best interest that you find them. If you believe the policy in place needs changing, there are forums to do so (Village Pump, etc.). Not in an article where belaboring the point has wasted over three weeks. Proselytizing is not done within articles.
- In answer to the last question that Diego posed, I will respond in the same way that I (and Don Quixote far more eloquently) have previously. The value of the article with chapter comparisons is diminished because there is: a) no proof that such comparisons are important, b) no secondary sourcing that would bring perspective to the importance of said material, and c) it distracts from the material of the article. Throwing in primary sourcing and fighting like mad for its inclusion to add something that you cannot prove has any value to the reader is detrimental to both the article and the encyclopedia. If this material is as important as you seem to think it is, find someone who isn't a Wikipedia editor (and therefore of no substantively citable or reliable value) and reference them saying it. Can't find a reliable source that does so? Then it isn't important. It's really that easy. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:43, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the answer, that summary makes your position with respect to content clearer. Note though that, by that reasoning, we shouldn't have plot summaries at all.
- you should feel entirely free to link those previous discussions that ended in "no clear consensus" I already did that, it's the link to the archived 2011 RFC at WikiProject Film. It shows that several fellow editors don't think that you need to supply a secondary source for referencing key facts, although several others do. Diego (talk) 17:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- P.S. As for the generality of the rules, the particulars about this fictional work may make it particularly suitable to benefit from providing an index of chapters. A Song of Ice and Fire is composed of several very long books, with a very complex, non-linear structure; and the TV adaptation is reordering the sequence of chapters, taking content from other later books. Although all the information of what happen where can be verified by re-reading the books, readers could benefit if we made for them the previous work of linking to the point in the book where each plot is located. (And I didn't suggest that we should change policy, so that point is a red herring - please don't be distracted by it). Diego (talk) 17:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Please note that the differences between plot summaries and other sections has been detailed elsewhere. Taking a look at those differences wouldn't hurt our discussion. As for the "various discussions" I asked you to post links to, I was offering you the opportunity to post more than one. In all the years Wikipedia has been around, you found a single discussion from back in 2011, and are hanging your hat upon that discussion? You don't see any sort of problem with the fact that from that time until now, the policies and guidelines regarding this topic haven't changed?
- There was no intent to offer a 'red herring', Diego; the implication of your initial post suggests that you wish to reinterpret our citation policies and guidelines to allow for the sort of primary sourcing you wish to use.
- Lastly, though I've said it before, it bears repeating. I am not arguing that this material might be of use to the reader. It is my sole contention that - in the absence of secondary references lending import and explicit language to the comments - you as an editor are not citable enough to make these connections between the book and series yourself. If these comments are as beneficial and important as you think, there must be reliable secondary sources to back that up. You need to find them, and get off the train of thought that makes you think you can insert them without sourcing them. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Jack, stop mischaracterizing our dispute. No one is saying that primary sources may be for analysis and interpretation and NO ONE is saying that editors get to add unsourced material whenever they like. The question is not whether primary sources may be used to make evaluative statements. The question is whether, "Content from this episode can also be found in chapters X, Y, and Z" is evaluative or not. As for whether Wikipedia requires secondary sources in all cases, WP:PRIMARY makes it clear that no it does not. The issue is whether a primary source is enough in this case. A big part of why the issue isn't resolved is because you keep pointing at things that are not at issue. Don't aim your hammer three inches below the nail and then complain that it didn't go into the wood.
- Seconding Diego's comments about the particular issue of non-linearity in Game of Thrones. The fact that the writers are not using the source material in order means that a reader can't always follow along from last week's chapters. One of the episodes we've been fighting about has material from book three and book five, skipping book four in between. I wouldn't mind seeing chapters listed in lots of book-to-screen articles, but GoT has more need for them than other TV show and movie articles do. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:06, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Administrative note: DRN rules specify no discussions without a moderator and that DRN is not a replacement for the talk page. However, practically speaking I don't want to let the 'rules' get in the way of progress. So I'll allow a couple more days for unmoderated discussion but then I'll need to close this case. So please, in the next two days, focus on clarifying any areas of common ground or agreement and start moving the balance of the issues/discussion back to the talk page or to an RfC or WP:MEDIATION. Thanks.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 13:08, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I've already stated unequivocally that offering that certain bits from 'x' book are used in 'y' episode require secondary sourcing, as per NOR. I've already pointed out that the reason that this is OR is because it is being evaluated by Wikipedia editors as being of importance as well as evaluating the episode to figure out where the material for the episode came from. Particularly because of the non-linearity of the series structure in comparison to the books require us to utilize a source that is reliable enough to use.
- What I fail to understand is why - if you understand the importance and difference between primary and secondary sourcing as you say - that you would stop wasting time, find the sources required and simply use them. If - again, as you say - this is so vitally important and notable - finding the required references should be a breeze. We cannot use your Sherlocking as a replacement for valid sources. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:06, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
After finishing re-reading this DRN entry, I realize that I;ve been saying the same thing for over three weeks now. I cannot see DG or DM standing up suddenly exclaiming, "Eureka! Now I get it!" We aren't doing anything more but planting vegetable gardens in our fortified defenses. I suggest we end this DRN process and initiate a Request for Comment, in order to get some independent input. - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 15:14, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- While I sympathize with your frustrations Jack, I feel your statement(s) regarding DG and DM are a bit over the line and probably not constructive. I would recommend striking or at least toning down said comments. DRN discussions cannot succeed if the involved editors do not respect each other. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 15:30, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Refactored part of my post. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Jack Sebastian, it takes one to know one. ;-) I agree that it's time to create an RfC. I believe that it should be centered around the kind of content than can or cannot be included; the policies we all have cited have not provided useful guidance for reaching a consensus, so wording the RfC in terms of policy would merely induce a repetition of the same debate.
- The reason why I keep insisting is because your repetitions are not convincing, and I don't feel they reflect in this case the spirit of the policies quoted. Original Research in particular is not concerned with Wikipedia editors assessing the weight to be given to available sources, which seems to be your major worry; that's a concern of editorial discretion, or at most neutrality, but it's different than "a position not advanced by the sources" which is what OR is about. We have provide enough references that "contains the same material" that was included in the article ("collecting and organizing material from existing sources" from RSs is what editors do, and this is what I see myself and DarkFrog doing; it's you and DonQuixote who don't find those sources reliable for the content they supported, not the guideline. Requiring that in all articles about Game of Thrones, all mentions of repeated plot points are attributed to secondary sources would render the index unusable, as it would fail their purpose - to show readers how they can verify them by themselves. Diego (talk) 16:47, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- "Stated unequivocally" only means that you've made it clear what you think, Jack. I read the policies too and they don't forbid the text in question. In fact, they expressly permit straightforward descriptions of facts from primary sources. Thinking that we should change our minds just because our opinions differ from yours is unreasonable.
- Jack, I told you why I didn't want to spend more time looking up more secondary sources: 1. because the rules say that primary sources are enough and 2. because when I did spend the time, you repeatedly deleted the content anyway, without even reading the source first. It doesn't look like anything would satisfy you, not even the things that you say you want. When I asked you why you hadn't spent any time looking up any sources, you said that you had "little in the way of time" and couldn't be bothered [19]. I don't see where you get to complain about other people not doing enough work when they're doing more than you are.
- Please DO stop repeating yourself. Your opinion is no less good than mine. Show me something other than your opinion, as I have shown you more than mine. Cite policy. Find precedent articles. Find disputes on this issue that were resolved or produced clear consensus. Doniago wasn't too good to do that and it got us some progress. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Final Comment-- I was going to try and leave this thread open for a day or two in case there could be some resolution but the seeing the bickering and personalized comments in recent comments that there is no emerging consensus so I'm going for the close. Please pursue an RfC or Mediation. Thanks, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:58, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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– General close. See comments for reasoning.
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
– New discussion.