Talk:Khojaly massacre

Senate of Mexico

Viernes, 04 de Noviembre de 2011. Primer Periodo Ordinario. No. Gaceta: 302

SEGUNDO.- Recuerda que a mбs de 19 aсos de la masacre de Jodyalн, la justicia no ha llegado a las vнctimas, por lo que manifiesta que un elemento central para cualquier acuerdo de paz deberнa ser el poner en marcha a la brevedad, medidas que contribuyan a sanar los vнnculos entre los pueblos y a reconstruir tan pronto como sea posible la armonнa entre ambas sociedades.

Nothing about "passed a decision consisting of articles of agreement on Armenian-Azerbaijani, Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and called as genocide by international human rights organizations". Azerbaijani media again lying. Divot (talk) 10:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Mexican senate confirmed its in their parliamentary newspaper. I attached the link in the reference so don't need to panic :)--NovaSkola (talk) 02:12, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not the Senate, its the Foreign relations committee and there is no mention of any genocides. --George Spurlin (talk) 06:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

DE LA COMISIÓN DE RELACIONES EXTERIORES, CON PUNTOS DE ACUERDO SOBRE EL CONFLICTO ARMENIAAZERBAIYÁN RESPECTO A NAGORNO KARABAJ != Senate of Mexico passed a decision. Please learn the Spanish language. Divot (talk) 09:56, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

To Divot, calm your tone down. Your sarcastic remarks not necessary. As well as George Spurlin is well known sockpuppet. --NovaSkola (talk) 14:34, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

To NovaSkola. Calm tone down is a good idea for one, who try to use any comission as a senate. By the way, Porfirio Muñoz Ledo even is not a president of Foreign relations committee of Senate. Chief of foreign relations committee of Senate is Rosario Green Macнas. I don't know who is George Spurlin. You can ask checkusers about it. Divot (talk) 21:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm a well known sockuppet? Where did you hear that? I don't recall ever talking to you before? --George Spurlin (talk) 23:47, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no any information about it at Embassy of Azerbaijan in Mexico. Last news - "El Presidente de Azerbaiyán, recibe al secretario de Marina de EE.UU." 21.11.2011. Divot (talk) 02:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes there is information about this news on the Embassy of Azerbaijan in Mexico [1]. The full document on the recognition can be found here. Mursel (talk) 22:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Those two sources only confirm the claim of Azerbaijani side. --vacio 14:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Pakistani Senate

There are no any information about it at Pakistani Senate "Orders of the Day". 77th Session's links: 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 24, ets. There are no any information about Khojaly. Please, looking for a more reliable source. Divot (talk) 21:13, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

If it is true, then it necessarily must be published in the first class news agency. BBC Azeri to help you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Amen! Divot (talk) 00:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

sources occasionally refer to the massacre as Khojaly Genocide

Btw, is one newspaper article ([2]) enough to say that Pakistani (...) sources occasionally refer to the massacre as Khojaly Genocide? --vacio 15:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The same problem with "Turkish[10][11][12] sources".

* TURKSAM - "TURKISH CENTRE OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS & STRATEGIC ANALYSIS TURKSAM" without any academical publications (TURKSAM, "TURKISH CENTRE OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS & STRATEGIC ANALYSIS", "Sinan OGAN")

* «The First News» - Azerbaycan Cumhuriyeti Adalet Bakanlığı

* http://www.hocalisoykirimi.com/ - what is this? Turkish media???? Divot (talk) 16:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

* I don't know why armenian clones/sockp puppet Divot and Vacio (yep, it is well known both of them are clones as they pop up same time) is removing information as here is sources about recognition in Pakistan

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/islamabad/02-Feb-2012/mps-committee-slams-occupation-of-azerbaijani-territories

Here is mexican sources about recognition http://www.diputados.gob.mx/servicios/datorele/LXI_LEG/1_POS_IIIANO/08-dic-11/8e.htm

as well as Mexican Senate's Foreign Relation Committee's resolution, which mentions the Khojaly massacre http://www.senado.gob.mx/index.php?ver=sp&mn=2&sm=2&id=11745&lg=61

--NovaSkola (talk) 04:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

1. There are no any information about Senat of Pakistan decision here. We don't know who use "genocide", Senat or "The Nation". There is not resolution text here.
2. This document only "DICTÁMENES A DISCUSIÓN' - Opinions in Discusion. "Proposición presentada por el Dip. Marcos Pérez Esquer (PAN) el 6 de septiembre de 2011. (LXI Legislatura)" - Proposal submitted by Marcos Perez Esquer, not more.
3. Mexican Senate's Foreign Relation Committee's resolution - say only "de la masacre de Jodyali", not "Genocidio de Jodyalí"
4. "http://www.1news.com.tr/azerbaycan/kulturyasham/20110303125802833.htm" - is not a turkish source, it is azerbaijanian source and registered in Azerbaijan.

Please, don't adding disputed information. Discuss proposed changes on the talk page, cite your sources, and work to build a consensus. If you don't understand spanish, ask someone, who know. If you want know who am I, you can ask Grandmaster, or see Russian Wikipedia. or ask checkusers, of course. Divot (talk) 09:58, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

BTW. The Nation: "The Foreign Relations Committee of Senate has condemned...". Where do you see "Senate of Pakistan has recognized events in 1992 as genocide"? Divot (talk) 10:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

There seem indeed to be some problems with the 3 sources provided by NovaSkola above.

1. nation.com.pk is not confirming that the KM is recognized as a genocide by Pakistani Senate. It only says that the Foreign Relations Committee of the Senate has condemned the KM (the genocide committed by Armenian armed forces in the Azerbaijan town of Khojaly) and passed a resolution re-affirming the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. Moreover, it is not clear whether the use of the word genocide is the journalists choice or of the Committee.
2. diputados.gob.mx contains the word genocide only between quotation marks (as que tuvieron lugar en el denominado “Genocidio de Jodyalí”), which is again not a confirmation of recognition as genocide.
3. senado.gob.mx only contains the word massacre (de la masacre de Jodyalí). In short, these sources do not contain evidence that massacre of Khojaly has been recognized as genocide by Pakistan or Mexico. --vacio 16:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

[3], [4], [5] Just a few sources to include mentioned information, and for my Armenian friends: instead of trying to refute each citation please try to find better sources to contribute Wikipedia.Tanks.--Abbatai 20:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Abbatai, regarding your sources, the first one is an opinion, second one is the speech by the president of Mexico-Azerbaijan Friendship Group and the third one is about Pakistan, which is already included in the article. --George Spurlin (talk) 22:55, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If such statements exist, surely there should be mention of them in governmental websites of Pakistan and Mexico? To date I have seen no such sources or any credible neutral source, only Azerbaijani sites that are known for altering things for propaganda purposes, and sites which have reproduced the content of those sites. Meowy 02:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the claim that "Jobbik stated that they will officially recognize Khojaly massacre if they become the ruling party in the country". A look at their website finds no such statement. However, a check of past content using archive.org does provide a copy of the event mentioned in the mili.az press release (see http://web.archive.org/web/20110727201644/http://www.jobbik.com/jobbik-announcements/3197.html), but it does not contains wording along the lines of "Jobbik stated that they will officially recognize Khojaly massacre if they become the ruling party in the country". Such a statement, if it existed, would suggest that Jobbik were actually making it a matter of party policy, but in their press conference they makes no such policy commitment. I have removed the claim from the article for that reason. It seems to be a case of an official media outlet in Azerbaijan (day.az) exagerating something for propaganda purposes. These Pakistan and Mexico things may turn out to be the same. Meowy 02:23, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Million signatures

I can't find a single Dutch source mentioning the "Million signatures" in 2011. How is it possible that 6% of the entire population of a country signs a petition, but no news-agency writes about it? Very suspicious. --vacio 15:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Sarajevo

"In February 2012, Bosnian city Sarajevo unveiled memorial to the victims" - Where is it unveiled? Maybe in the territory of the Azerbaijani embassy. Divot (talk) 21:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Fataliyev

Please stop misinterpreting the words of Fataliyev. He says nothing close to what is ascribed to him. Grandmaster 22:33, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The text below is translated inaccurately and is being misinterpreted.

Həmin iclasda qərara gəldilər ki, əgər Xocalıdan camaat çıxarılsa, ermənilər bunu oraya girmək üçün əsas kimi qəbul edəcəklər. Yəni biz özümüz onları Xocalıya girməyə təhrik etmiş olacağıq. Hətta Təhlükəsizlik Şurasının üzvləri də inanmırdılar ki, ermənilər sonradan genosidə çevrilən belə bir işə gedərlər. Onlar düşünürdülər ki, xalq ordan getsə Xocalını özümüz təslim etmiş olacağıq. Bu siyasi uzaqgörənliyin olmaması, situasiyanı bilməmək Xocalı hadisəsinə gətirib çıxırdı ki, mənim də tribunadan dediyim bu idi.

He said that some people at the meeting objected the evacuation, because if the population left the town, it would be an invitation for Armenians to attack it, and at that time members of security council did not believe that Armenians could commit the genocide. As you can see, he does not say that Armenians did not or could not commit genocide, he only said that no one expected that they would, but they were wrong. Grandmaster 23:30, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, www.panorama.am is not a neutral source. It cannot be used as a reference. Grandmaster 23:32, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

http://eucfa.eu/index.php/konflikt-um-artsakh-berg-karabach-konflikt is an Armenian propaganda source. Not third party, cannot be used. Grandmaster 23:37, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, how many times can the article mention this Eynulla Fatullayev guy? He was only 16 when the massacre took place, he was not there at the time. He wrote a few stupid articles, but he cannot be considered as reliable as HRW or Memorial, who were there after the massacre. Grandmaster 23:43, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I checked Fatullayev's statement to the European Court of Human Rights, and he says that he never accused the Azerbaijani side of having anything to do with the massacre, he says that he was only quoting what Armenians told him. So I see no reason for extensive quoting of this guy, he does not support what Armenian media ascribes to him. Grandmaster 00:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Please explain who "European Center for Artsakh e.V" are. Why should they be considered reliable? Who are they anyway? Grandmaster 01:23, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Looked through the sources and agree with Grandmaster. Sources about Fatullayev have been seriously distorted. In the document Fatullayev clearly admits he just conveyed what he read on Armenian websites and what he heard from Armenians. This can not be presented as if his personal opinion. Second, many non-neutral sources appear on the reference list. Indeed, European Centre for Artsakh looks like someone's private website with no credentials and can not be considered a reliable source. www.panorama.am should definitely be removed as a non-neutral as well Angel670 talk 14:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I could not find anywhere in Memorial's report this section:

It is a fact that an organized evacuation of Khojaly's people was not carried out. It was not carried out, although the authorities of Khojaly, the High Command and the administration of the Azerbaijani fighters were informed and knew about the humanitarian corridor which was established for this purpose.

The report only says:

С осени 1991 г. Ходжалы был практически блокирован армянскими вооруженными формированиями, а после вывода внутренних войск из Нагорного Карабаха установилась полная блокада. С января 1992 г. в Ходжалы не подавалась электроэнергия. Часть жителей покинула блокированный город, однако полной эвакуации мирного населения, несмотря на настойчивые просьбы главы исполнительной власти Ходжалы Э.Мамедова, организовано не было.

From fall 1991 Khojaly was practically blockaded by the Armenian armed forces, and after the withdrawal of the (Soviet) internal troops from Karabakh the blockade became total. No electricity has been supplied since January 1992. Some inhabitants left the blockaded town, but the full evacuation of the civilian population was not carried out, despite insistent demands of the head of executive power of Khojaly E.Mamedov.

Therefore the quoting should be accurate. Also, what is the point in flooding the article with quotes about the lack of evacuation? The reader will get the point from a single line of Memorial report. There's no excuse for inserting repetitive quotes saying the same thing. The failure to evacuate is still not a justification for the mass killing of civilians. I would like to invite everyone to discuss here before making controversial edits. Grandmaster 14:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Is this a bad joke?! Where is the difference between trend.az, news.az, today.az (all Azerbaijani News sites) and panorama.am (Armenian News site)?? This is called having double standards - Unacceptable! --Aghetrichter (talk) 16:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

News reports are only used to describe claims of recognition, rallies, etc. They are not used to describe the massacre. Grandmaster 23:41, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Manipulated evidence

I repeat:

"The section "Manipulated evidence" has almost completely been deleted with inexplicable reasons. The User "Grandmaster" (by the way: This user page has been vandalized 23 times) is almost deleting everything which is not "pro-Azerbaijani" and against his view, probably because of his own Azerbaijani backgroud which I found unsustainable! The reasons for deleting almost the entire section "manipulated evidence" was "neutral tone, rm unsourced chunks, speculation and partisan referencing, please discuss before further additions". Please explain me what exactly you mean with "unsourced chunks"? Every "chunk" in my text ends with sources! Altogether there are 10 different sources mentioned. And just to get this clear… Azerbaijani news-sites or obviously dubious sources like "www.hocalisoykirimi.com" are accepted and ok but sources like... - an original video interview of the person one is citing - Armenian news-sites - Russian news-websites (third-party-source) - the report "Ethnic Cleansing in Progress" (third-party-source) - "The European Center for Artakh" (a registered association from Germany) ... which are all sources I have used for "manipulated evidence" are considered to be "speculation and partisan referencing"?! If an original video interview is used to depict something, this is called "speculation"?! How can something be speculation if the fact can be heard in a video? As long as Azerbaijani sources are considered to be neutral and non-partisan I don't want my detailed sourced(!) texts to be deleted completey just because it does not fit to someones point of view." --Aghetrichter (talk) 02:15, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

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As for your sources, as Brandmeister said, they are all partisan, including The European Center for Artakh, which is run by the Armenian diaspora. The official page of the website speaks for itself. Please use third party sources only. And hocalisoykirimi has not been used in the article. Grandmaster 07:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

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The history shows clearly that everything which is not pro-Azerbaijani is being deleted completey or shortened extremely by Grandmaster who comes from Azerbaijan. It seems as if he is not objective in this case.

I extensively explained that a lot of Azerbaijani sources, like news websites or the dubious website "http://www.hocalisoykirimi.com" have been used (Grandmaster is false, see Source #10) and obviously accepted in the article "Khojaly Massacre". I am really asking myself why Armenian News websites, Russian News websites, "pro-Armenian"-third-party-sources on the other hand are considered to be "partisan" but Azerbaijani sources are not?! This is absurd!

Moreover the structure which you have used for this Article is absolutely inappropriate for this issue and is the main problem for all this disscussions and problems. In the case of the "Khojaly massacre" there is actualy clearly an "Azerbaijani point of view" (where Azerbaijani sources should be accepted), an "Armenian point of view" (where Armenian sources should be accepted) and an "International point of view". And all three different evaluations have to be presented in a seperate own topic for a better comprehension (which should be the intention of Wikipedia), all other structure in this case leads to deleting statements and extremly shortening because something does not fit to ones point of view (like in the case of Azerbaijani Grandmaster).--Aghetrichter (talk) 16:37, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

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The sources you list like Armenian online news, including the Armenian diaspora page registered in Germany or Russia, are in fact non-neutral and partisan. You can not use everything you find on the web to modify the article and push aggressively your personal point of view. Angel670 talk 17:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

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(I again bring up this question, as it seems that non of you (probably Azerbaijani or turkish Admins) is able to answer it) Where is the difference between trend.az, news.az, today.az (all Azerbaijani News sites) and for example panorama.am (Armenian News site)?? This is called having double standards - Unacceptable! I am not pushing my point of view. I am just presenting the Armenian point of view. Seems as if some of you all are extremely bigoted --Aghetrichter (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Check your facts. "www.hocalisoykirimi.com" is only used to show what this event is called in Turkey. It is not used to support any factual claim in the article. Again, partisan sources cannot be considered reliable. And splitting the article into sections based on ethnic affiliation of sources is not appropriate. The article should be arranged inn chronological order. We should describe what happened on the basis of the info provided by neutral observers. The positions of both sides are presented too. The Armenian version is featured very prominently, every conspiracy theory is described in much detail. In fact, I see that too much space is dedicated to Eynulla Fatullayev, despite the fact that he is not a reliable source, and does not support what the Armenian sources ascribe to him. Grandmaster 23:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

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Thomas De Waal confirms what aghetricher says. http://carnegie.ru/publications/?fa=42579

More disturbing is the evidence of the Czech journalist Dana Mazalova, whom I met briefly last year in Armenia and have since corresponded with. Mazalova saw the original footage shot by the Azerbaijani cameraman Chingiz Mustafiev of the dead bodies and says that she did not see there the signs of mutilation that were in later footage. That has the grisly implication that someone interfered with the corpses afterwards.

This claims are not coming from Armenian news it is the Czech journalist heavily worked during the Nagorno-Karabakh war. There is a good 3rd party source so aghet has the right to put up this section Ali55te (talk) 23:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

In addition she also tells the connection between this event and the suspicious murder of Chingiz Mustafayev. She says after Chingiz realized this he feared of his life, he started to wear body armour etc.. and 6 months later he was killed. http://cpj.org/killed/1992/chingiz-fuad-ogly-mustafayev.php Probably this will appear soon in third party sources then it can be added. Ali55te (talk) 23:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

When quoting de Waal, it is better to provide a full quote of the paragraph. This part of de Waal's article says it all:

The overwhelming evidence of what happened has not stopped some Armenians, in distasteful fashion, trying to muddy the waters. The then Azerbaijani president Ayaz Mutalibov made a bitter remark accusing his political opponents of involvement in the killings, which he later disavowed. But that has not stopped his quotation being endlessly cited in Armenia.

Grandmaster 23:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I can not see any connection between the findings of Czech reporter and that quotation? How can you make a connection ? Ali55te (talk) 23:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)