Talk:Salvador Allende

Template:Controversial (history)

Historical revisionism (negationism)

Perhaps a more effective or permanent way to deal with people inserting material that keeps transforming this biography into a blog of irreconcilable views on Allende’s presidency would be to introduce a sound section on Allende’s Chile on the historical revisionism (negationism) page. This would discourage editors inserting bias material that aims to equate the universally recognized (including 5 successive US administrations) US involvement in the military coup with the Soviet involvement in Allende’s Chile (that some claim justified the coup). A similar solution could be given to material that aims to equate the alleged crimes committed under Allende with the crimes against humanity universally recognized to have been committed by Pinochet.

The reductio ad absurdum attempt of the right-wing in Chile to present such a distorted version of what occurred in Chile between 1970 and 1990 to the new generations of Chileans (many of whom make their presence felt on this page) is only comparable to the falsification of history under the Stalinists in the USSR or the holocaust denial of Nazi sympathisers. Moshe-paz (talk) 20:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that there is a constant and brutal historical revisionism (negationism) in this page. I disagree though that is only from the "right-wing" faction, but also (and mostly) from his supporters who suppress any attempt at a historically balanced view of his persona and administration. The only way to deal with these issues is to keep on taking out the most blatantly partisan commentaries. As for whether the US administration claims are historically accurate or not (the last five administrations? that would mean since Carter, no? It cannot be since Reagan and Bush father never subscribed to that view, and Obama has not had time yet to express any view) is dubious since some have given one version but others have given a completely opposite one. That topic is not for this page to discuss, but only to report. As the policy says, we're not supposed to report the TRUTH, but just the FACTS. --Mel Romero (talk) 01:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me Moshe-paz but you are talking nonsense and clearly taking a defensive position typical of left-wing denial to the new information that puts Allende as manipulated and dependent of the USSR politics.

"A similar solution could be given to material that aims to equate the alleged crimes committed under Allende with the crimes against humanity universally recognized to have been committed by Pinochet."

Those crimes have been well documented.... why do you feel the need to make a comparison with Pinochet? to make you feel better?

"The reductio ad absurdum attempt of the right-wing in Chile to present such a distorted version of what occurred in Chile between 1970 and 1990"

I dont think you have the monopoly of the truth, nor that any new information presented by respected schoolars is "right-wing propaganda".

"is only comparable to the falsification of history under the Stalinists in the USSR or the holocaust denial of Nazi sympathisers."

Why is Allende such a "sacred cow" of the left? why cant people accept that his government, US intervention aside, was unconstitutional and horribly manipulated by the USSR, Cuba and the marxist terrorist groups in the country? Agrofelipe (talk) 04:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore on this "revisionism" topic, the left has a pretty well established record of historical revisionism and manipulation, right now there are people still deny the Soviet intervention in Chile, the support of Allende`s government for illegality, violence and terrorism, the smuggling of cuban weapons by the UP with Allende`s authorization and even today some believe that the "US invaded Chile" or that "the US was preparing to invade Chile in a second coup", quite frankly is just sad. Agrofelipe (talk) 20:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Agrofelipe:

Firstly, I am not going to discuss with you the issue of historical revisionism because in your reply you prove that you may lack the capacity to really understand it. Also, a brief reading of your edits and comments leads me to conclude that your knowledge of history seems to be entangled with a form of ontological insecurity! Secondly, you don’t know my political views, and this project is not about people imposing their political agenda. Nor am I going to enter a discussion about my political views with people here. The Wikipedia project claims to be a project that aims to present its readers with established facts that are referenced with reliable sources.

Now if you are contributing to a page in the project you need to present information (as opposed to views) that are adequately sourced and are known to be facts beyond reasonable doubt. You cannot claim that under the Allende government “Marxist terrorist groups” operated and committed human rights violations and not provide a reliable source for such statements.

Where are the victims of the Allende government?

Where are the victims of these “marxist terrorists groups”?

Where are their graves?

Where are their widows?

Where are their lawyers?

Where are their memorials?

There were a handful of military officials and police officials assassinated in Chile but not under Allende – these people were assassinated under the Pinochet regime. These people were not civilians they were functionaries of a military dictatorship that did not tolerate any political opposition which established a secret police along with secret detention centers as part of a state policy of subjecting political opponents to forced disappearances. This is a fact. This is not my idea or my wish or my political agenda nor my attempt to discredit the right or Pinochet.

Now this debate can be concluded simply by starting pages listing the victims of the Pinochet regime. I have started List of MIR (Chile) members assassinated by the Pinochet regime, there should also be a corresponding list of victims of the pinochet regime who were members of the Communist Party of Chile, a list for those who were members of MAPU and one also for those who were members of the Socialist Party of Chile.

You claim that the “crimes” of Allende and his “Marxist terrorist groups” have been well documented. When? Where? By whom? If you have such information then maybe you could begin the list of those victims; who they were, what they did, when they fell victims to “Allende and his Marxist terrorist groups”. Maybe you can get the assistance of Likeminas or Dentren to fulfill that task!------ Moshe-paz (talk) 14:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Fist off I will say that I don't agree with Agrofelipe one bit, much less with his rather rude tone of discussing this issue.

I will also ask, however, that Moshe-paz not get me involved in his fringe theories of socket puppetry.

Moshe-paz you know me very little and if you were to at least read what I’ve said on this talk page or see my list of contributions you would’ve realized you’re making a fool of yourself by making silly and unfounded spurious accusations against me.

Finally , just a piece of advice;

If you guys want to keep a constructive editing environment I’d suggest you all, to avoid discussing the editors and focus only on dicussing and improving the article, nothing else.

Likeminas (talk) 16:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I hit a socialist nerve it seems, well let me reply to this nonsense. Although before I do I want to make clear that this is for Moshe-paz directly.

"Firstly, I am not going to discuss with you the issue of historical revisionism because in your reply you prove that you may lack the capacity to really understand it."

In other words you just cant define "historical revisionism" without saying that only your truth is the "acceptable one"... hahaha!

"Also, a brief reading of your edits and comments leads me to conclude that your knowledge of history seems to be entangled with a form of ontological insecurity!"

Could you be a little more vague?

"Secondly, you don’t know my political views, and this project is not about people imposing their political agenda. Nor am I going to enter a discussion about my political views with people here. The Wikipedia project claims to be a project that aims to present its readers with established facts that are referenced with reliable sources."

Fine, lets get to the real issue.

"Now if you are contributing to a page in the project you need to present information (as opposed to views) that are adequately sourced and are known to be facts beyond reasonable doubt. You cannot claim that under the Allende government “Marxist terrorist groups” operated and committed human rights violations and not provide a reliable source for such statements.

You must not be a chilean if you ask for proof of Allende's link to terrorism. You can search on your own the doings of the MIR, the MAPU and the VOP in Chile during that time, also there is a complete record of the cuban weapons smugled by Allende`s government to arm these terrorist groups, you can find it here under the "cuban packages scandal".

Another thing my contributions were not aimed at that point but to show that Allende was a puppet of the USSR and Cuba, I did that with plenty of sources from soviet officials and intelligence documents, however a fellow wikipedia editor added sources about political violence an terrorism during Allende's years...... they were deleted.

Where are the victims of the Allende government?

Dead I guess, or simply living their lives as any other citizen.

Where are the victims of these “marxist terrorists groups”?

See above

Where are their graves?

You want a map?

Where are their widows?

What an absurd question

Where are their lawyers?

Unlike the left-wing, the right-wing people cant get the state to hire lawyers to ask for compensations.

Where are their memorials?

People protecting their property, rights and liberty from socialist criminals dont get memorials, only marxist terrorists a la Che Guevara do, don't you know that?

There were a handful of military officials and police officials assassinated in Chile but not under Allende

Where are your sources????!!!!

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Your are right, police officers were killed during Pinochet years by marxist terrorists as well as during Allende years

"– these people were assassinated under the Pinochet regime. These people were not civilians they were functionaries of a military dictatorship

The FPMR, the marxist terrorist organization guilty of these crimes payed by the cuban dictatorship and whose members belonged to the communist party of Chile, also killed innocent civilians in bombings of public places, kidnappings and armed robberies to banks.

"that did not tolerate any political opposition which established a secret police along with secret detention centers as part of a state policy of subjecting political opponents to forced disappearances."

I never denied this, however those "political opponents" were mostly terrorists.

Now this debate can be concluded simply by starting pages listing the victims of the Pinochet regime.

How is that relevant?

I have started List of MIR (Chile) members assassinated by the Pinochet regime

You mean a list of MIR terrorists killed during Pinochet years, dont you?

"there should also be a corresponding list of victims of the pinochet regime who were members of the Communist Party of Chile, a list for those who were members of MAPU and one also for those who were members of the Socialist Party of Chile."

"MIR, PC, MAPU"......You seem pretty fond of terrorist organizations, well to each his own.

I wont deny that marxists are exceptionally good at crying for money, and even now there are cases were "missing" socialists were in fact very much alive while their families received a monetary compensation.

Its all about the money.

"You claim that the “crimes” of Allende and his “Marxist terrorist groups” have been well documented. When? Where? By whom?

I suggest searching for chilean newspapers of the time as well as the statements of the supreme court of justice and the declaration of the chamber of deputies of Chile of 1973.

If you have such information then maybe you could begin the list of those victims; who they were, what they did, when they fell victims to “Allende and his Marxist terrorist groups”.

Maybe I will if I get the time, however it is somewhat tricky, first because the courts of justice during Allende`s regime were unable to trial the terrorists responsible for the violation of property and rights of people, second because the record of those crimes are very old and third because the marxist criminals guilty of those crimes were executed by military tribunals 30 years ago. Agrofelipe (talk) 19:24, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

My, my, my. I think you've alienated many people from your country. in reality, the MIR was not the best organized in Chile. MANY branches did not have access to arms, and did not resort to extreme tactics. Agrofelipe, instead of calling anything socialist terrorism, perhaps you may want to look at some important documents. I'm fed up with you slamming everything that is against Pinochet.

P.S. :

Before you decide that Allende was loco, look at how many fell under the Pinochet regime. All opposition to the military junta was terminated.

Compression09King | Retired (talk) 23:18, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Agrofelipe is a very well known pro-Pinochet chilean with close connections to the chilean neo-nazi movement. In Germany this guy would end in prison for his views.

Wikipedia should not be a playground for severe accusations without real sources. Do you really mean that accusing Salvador Allende to have personally received payment by KGB is a constructive action? That is propaganda my friends and coming from people that usually are unfriendly to our Wikipedia movement. I use Wikipedia for teaching and I am an advocate of Open Access but with people like the ones defending the "Soviet involvement" section, accepting severe criminal accusations are undermining the credibility of Wikipedia.

Re- credibility of Wikipedia- you mean like leaving pompously critical comments but not signing them? Here is a reference on Allende's KGB payments- [1] as for criticism of the Soviet involvement, consider that in the cold war era of the '70's an American investigative reporter had the opportunity to win a Pulitzer prize for exposing foreign intervention activities of his government's intelligence agencies. His Soviet counterpart had the opportunity- no, the guarantee, of a one way trip to the Siberian Gulags for his efforts.Batvette (talk) 14:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

You must be joking when you give that article as a reference for Allende receiving money from KGB!! The article relies only on the tales told by one person! NO DOCUMENTS! Sorry my friend but I am a scientist and you would never approve a PhD thesis with me. On the other hand we have hundreds of documents from the USA involvement during the Allende era. Please be serious about your accusations and not blinded by your anti-communism.

To inform others: This is the type of people trying to defame Allende:

June 2009 Comments to Batvette; Dougweller (talk) 18:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC); Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors, as you did on New World Order (conspiracy theory). Please read that the comment was "shifty and dishonest arguments" which clearly addresses his contributions. This is in contrast to "I went to your user page and it sounds like you're a crank". Sound familiar? It was in his first reply to me. Welcome to earth.Batvette (talk) 22:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You asked for real sources, the one provided meets the wiki criteria for reliable sources, discarding it would be your own original research and would not be considered acceptable. You are a scientist? Great! What does that have to do with a wiki article on Allende? Your credentials certainly aren't helped by the petty, immature tactic of trying to attack my personWikipedia:No_personal_attacks to lend credibility to your own POV on Allende, which incidentally phails to the "nth" degree as you only provided my rebuttal. Notice the other editor claimed "shifty and dishonest arguments" was a personal attack, by C/Ping it here you only proved you can't read or are equally clueless. "blinded by my anti-communism"? Please review Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith and do not assume anything about the intent of my contributions to wiki. What you call the tales of one person is actually the factual dissemination of intelligence documents wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrokhin_Archive that the FBI calls "the most complete and extensive intelligence ever received from any source". This one person happened to be a KGB major who oversaw the movement of the entire archives of the bureau over a twelve year period, and took notes of everything he saw. His notes have been extensively reviewed by scholars, and have withstood skeptical review as authentic. Your dismissal of them because they do not look favorably upon your POV only discredits yourself as ignorant of their significance. Oh, and please sign your comments, "Mr Scientist".Batvette (talk) 17:48, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Foreign relations during Allende's Presidency section

This section keeps referring to relations with Russia, i.e. Russian aid, Russian investment etc, during Allende's era. That is incorrect. The correct term is Soviet Union, as the Russian SFSR was only its largest constituent part. The USSR may be an extension of Russia, but legally they are not the same. Akaloc (talk) 15:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Correct. I am assuming that whoever put the references to the so-called "Soviet involvement" did not care to be accurate.

Accuracy is key. If the article is not accurate , it is worthless.Compression09KingExtreme Wikipedian 15:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I wrote the article, or should I say expanded it, and Russia was the master country that dominated all the others in the Soviet Union, so any form of political or economic intervention in Chile or assistance to Allende`s government was coming directly from Moscow. Agrofelipe (talk) 04:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende#Death_and_myth

Did anyone see this? Those who are commited to maintaining Allende commited suicide will be busy all year!

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende#Death_and_myth

Compression09KingExtreme Wikipedian 15:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Yep full of POVs and more importantly lacking sources...

I guess it's a good thing that, that's the simple English version, which doesn't get many views anyway.

Likeminas (talk) 15:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Some one had better fix it. And it sure isn't going to be me.

Arguing over a dead man is not my idea of scholars. Forget it.

You guys can fix it. Who's stopping you?

I am tired of constantly fighting. So I changed my name , and my habits.

No more arguing over old Allende.

Now where did I put that coffee?!?

Compression09KingExtreme Wikipedian 15:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Some sources regarding Allende's death:

• The death of Allende: Officially a suicide[2]
• Wife admits Allende suicide with gun Castro gave him [3]
• Leftist Journal Concludes Allende Killed Himself [4]
• Allende's Last Day [5]
• French Socialist Says Allende Once Spoke of Suicide if overthrown [6]

Since this is the most widely accepted view of his death, there are tons of sources corroborating it. But obviusly I don't have the time nor the motivation to list them all. I mainly say this just to put to rest all the other fringe theories about Allende being murdered. Likeminas (talk) 15:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah , ever theory needs a rest. I decided no more Allende until my book is finished.

Who would have known being an author would be so strange?

And yes , every theory has holes in it.

Just plug them up with "He died ,and that is that. Don't matter how."

Compression09KingExtreme Wikipedian 16:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Disputed

Have you not looked at the edit history of the article and realised that the content is disputed? I have restored the tag and will continue to do so. Compression09King-Extreme Wikipedian (talk) 14:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I didn’t query the disputed tag per se, if you had read my comments you would have noted that I was referring to your own created tag with a visual image. Given that some people still use 14” monitors, it took up almost all the screen. Moshe-paz (talk) 09:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Moshe-paz. I didn't realize some browse with small screens. I'll have to do something to the logo. Like shrink it.

Compression09King-Extreme Wikipedian (talk) 19:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Am I missing something here? Why is the section Death being disputed now? We have already established with ample evidence (see sources above) that the most widely accepted version of his death was suicide.

I will remove that tag, and let the person who inserted it explain in detail why and what is being disputed. Likeminas (talk) 20:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

He was born on the 26 of July not June —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.190.34.22 (talk) 11:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Extraction

What was his ancestry - Basque? Qzm (talk) 20:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Soft redirect

I don't think the lede should contain a wikilink to a soft redirect to a wikisource translation of Allende's last speech. I've tried to compromise with the editor who wants to add it by adding the wikisource page as a ref, but maybe there is a better way. What do others think? --John (talk) 15:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

John, your change seems quite reasonable since it's also referenced on the wiki-quote under the death section. Regards, Likeminas (talk) 15:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Ironic Discrepancy

Ever notice how this Death of Salvador Allende attributes the suicide ruling to Dr. Guijón and not his personal doctor Dr. Enrique Paris Roa. I'm supposed to be retired, but I could not resist pointing this out. The person who attributed the statement to Roa oughta make a public apology, IMHO.

Back from the dead (at least for a visit), April809 (talk) 21:49, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The beginning of this article reads very poorly and sounds extremely bias. I came to learn a little about Allende but expected to find an article that at least sounded like it wasn't biased. Somebody please revise the opening as it makes it appear that allende was somehow as bad as Pinochet, which anyone who has ties to these parts knows is false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.206.199.48 (talk) 05:01, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Completely garbage article.

Huge amount of POV.