Talk:Adrian Monk/GA1

GA Review

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I apologize for my previous hasty quickfail. I am looking forward to working together with you by reviewing this article. I will be adding comments about the article sequentially as I read it. You may begin adressing my comments as you see them. I will strikethrough my own comments as I am satisfied with your actions. I would suggest that in the line following each of my comments you comment on your action or opinion. This will make our discourse easier to follow. Eventually, I will then summarize my comments in a standard GA review template but not until I have read the entire article critically.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Review

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

Sufficient breadth and depth for GA, but much more needed for FA. Minor prose concerns. Fair use image needs better FUR. I would like more and better secondary sources.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   See comment. I have many issues

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Very unfamiliar with primary resource citation as extensive as here.

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   I have noted many elements of his character that are not mentioned

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

   I believe that all praise is a summary of secondary sources and that it reflects the consensus opinion. Praise is extensive, but I believe deserved and encyclopedic in this case. It might be a bit much for some. My eyes may be clouded as a fan.

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   See Jack Sparrow, Padmé Amidala for a good FURs.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Article is on hold for further review

Comments

Quick comment: a search for the word tissue surprisingly yields no results. Can you write an article about this character without describing the role tissues play in his life?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:03, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Lead

• In the first paragraph, I would include all names which he is referred to on the show in bold. It should be something like "The character (referred to on the show as Adrian, Mr. Monk, Monk or Detective Monk) is portrayed by Tony Shalhoub" or "The character, who is referred to on the show as Adrian, Mr. Monk, Monk or Detective Monk, is portrayed by Tony Shalhoub." I think I might put this sentence in active voice as well both because it is preferred and would eliminate having two is's in the sentence. Thus, it should actually be something like "Tony Shaloub portrays the character, who is referred to on the show as Adrian, Mr. Monk, Monk or Detective Monk." Later, I would describe how each of the shows characters addresses him.
  • Partly fixed; Adrian and Monk are obvious names, since that's his name, I've only used Mr. Monk and Detective Monk.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
    • You use a lot of passive voice (Do a search on the word by). Why are you using it in this case? Active voice is preferred.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
      • I don't fully get what you mean, but is it better now?--Music26/11 11:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
        • See Grammatical voice. Active voice is almost always preferred.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

          passive voice: The character is portrayed by Tony Shalhoub.

          active voice: Tony Shalhoub portrayed the character.

          • Good now?--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
• portrayal of the character seems clumsy to me. I would just say role.
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• Don't start consecutive paragraphs with "The character".
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Now you start with Monk in three consecutive paragraphs. We are looking for variety.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Oh that's what you ment. Fixed.--Music26/11 11:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
• I would change positive comments to accolades.
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• The punctuation is off in "The character, as well as Shaloub have". Either Shaloub is a parenthetical thought and should be set off by two commas and you have a singular verb or you have a compound subject as indicated by the verb have in which case it should be "The character and Shaloub have".— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 03:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
    • This is is slightly better mistake, but seems wrong to me. It seems that you are using as well as Shalhoub as a parenthetical phrase. Thus the subject is singular, but the verb is plural.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Fixed.--Music26/11 11:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Creation

• Monk was originally envisioned as an Inspector Clouseau type of character,[2] "more goofy and physical".[3] seems ungrammatical. I would go with Monk was originally envisioned as a "more goofy and physical" Inspector Clouseau type of character.[2][3] or something like Monk was originally envisioned as an Inspector Clouseau type,[2] a character who was "more goofy and physical".[3] where you have an appositive set off by commas. I think you are trying to be diligent with your citations so that the reader can WP:ATT everything so the latter probably works better.
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• I think you are forcing a comma after Dr. Watson to be pointed with the citation. You may have to split the sentence to do this.
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
    • The comma is still ungrammatical and the following has no verb: "With his assistant assuming the role of Dr. Watson,[5] and his brother Ambrose displaying various similarities to Mycroft Holmes, Sherlock Holmes' older brother."[6][7][8]--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I think what you want to do is something like this: "Monks assistants assumed the roles of similar to Dr. Watson,[5] and his brother Ambrose displayed various similarities to Mycroft Holmes, Sherlock Holmes' older brother."[6][7][8]--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Changed as suggested.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
• The source does not really say Monk was envisioned as an Inspector Clouseau type, but rather that ABC was looking for a show with that type of character.
  • Added third source.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• The other source does say that the early drafts envisioned Monk in this way. Maybe you want to get both points in.
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• Thrives inspiration is ungrammatical to me and at the very least awkward.
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 11:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
• I don't like starting the sentence with Because. Move Monk was described as "a very uptight human being. to the end of the sentence.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I don't think you are suppose to precede because with a comma.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
      • But then I start a sentence with "because".--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
        • I don't think because is conjoining equally independent phrases. I think one is subordinate to the other and the comma is unnecessary. I do not recall the exact grammatical rule, but I think I am advising you correctly to remove the comma.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
          • "Since he was described as "a very uptight human being"" is now ungrammatically set apart as a separate sentence.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
• Who is Breckman?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:30, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Added.--Music26/11 11:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Casting

• After Richards dropped out of the project COMMA
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• When the show was positively received, Change When to After.
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• Why don't you add the name of the Michael Richards character.
  • What name, the name of his character in his own show? If yes, why? It does not have anything to do with Monk.
    • Isn't the point that he was type cast as Cosmo Kramer.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Added.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
        • I don't exactly know the lingo, but I think it would be better to say something like he was typecast for zany/comedic roles after playing Cosmo or something to that effect.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
• amount of episodes s/b number of episodes
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• full contract. Do you mean full time?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 14:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Personality

• At least two ???!!! Why not just two?
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 11:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Now that I read it, I understand your point, and you should say on the show to clarify this.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:49, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Reverted.--Music26/11 15:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
        • Should we say two on the show or do we know these are the only two?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
• Is tap water a separate fear from germs?/
  • Yes, I think so, should it be mentioned?--Music26/11 11:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
    • If you can source it so that it is encyclopedic.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:49, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Couldn't find any reliable sources that indicate this, sorry. There is mention of him only drinking sierra springs.--Music26/11 15:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
• You have to mention his penchant for symmetry. (Wasn't there an episode where he cut all his pancakes so that they were perfectly square?) Maybe you should mention his anticeptic living situation. Maybe using the "socks in Ziploc bags" quote from source 18
  • Added.--Music26/11 15:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
• This source also mentions photographic memory.
• Does he have a driver's license? Don't his assistant's usually drive him for some reason?
• In the personality section can you say how Monk and his assistants handle his phobias? Tissues, bottled water, constant home-cleaning, night light, etc.?
• You have to describe his impulses and urges to organize and clean. Something like "When entering a chaotic murder scene in one episode, his first impulse was to straighten the lamps." from source 19 should help.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:23, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Added.--Music26/11 15:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
• Seems like a runon with the two ands: Monk strongly prefers familiarity and rigorous structure in his activities and has great difficulty in standard social situations (at one point, he goes so far as to write down common small talk phrases on note cards in an attempt to successfully socialize).--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• What about the fingers: "When Monk studies crime scenes, for instance, he holds his hands before him, fingers splayed." from source 29.
  • Added.--Music26/11 15:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
• In this section you should mention his therapy. You have source 30.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Added. Although, I never saw the episodes where his new shrink arrived, so if he reacted incredibly weird (which I can imagine) someone else should add it, cause I don't want to spoil anything.--Music26/11 15:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I sure have left out a lot of quirks and phobias, I'll see what I can do.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

This guy is a character who is notable in large part for his mannerisms. A WP:GA has to address them. As long as you are continuing to progress, I will work with you.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Since I am slow, you may want to take some time join flickr.com and request consent to change the licensing on some photos for use on WP. Only one of your two images seems to be licensed properly. You are going to have to ditch the main image. However if you write people at flickr, I bet you might be able to get consent on another image or two.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:46, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Which image isn't porperly licensed? Because I don't see the need in ditching one.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Trudy's Death

• (Monk calls it "a temporary suspension" and hopes to be reinstated) would work better as a second sentence.
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
• intense, and with him every day should have no comma
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
• likewise with "never truly happy, and never expects to"--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Fixed.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Childhood and family

• We discover this year that he has a half brother. Why don't we mention the episode.
  • Seems to be fixed already.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I do not see the episode name.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:18, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
      • It is fine in the ref.
• "...Ambrose admits he didn't call Monk because he believed that he was partially responsible for the incident, as Trudy was getting him cough medicine..." seems runon. Try "Ambrose admits he didn't call Monk because he believed that he was partially responsible for the incident. Trudy was getting Ambrose cough medicine..."
  • Done.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
• You suddenly jump to present tense. Put everything int he past tense.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Fixed, I think.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I still see "Monk is", "the two are", etc.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:18, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Sorry, I did it the other way around. It's fixed now.--Music26/11 15:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Critical reception

• "the character of Adrian Monk has received many positive responses." would be better in active voice and reworded. Try Critical reviews of character Adrian Monk have been positive.
  • Check.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Did I say that was passive before. Oops. It still seems better though.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:25, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
• The Bravo link is dead.
  • Replaced.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
• The pop matters review mentions physical comedy. This may help you talk about his use of his hands.
  • Thnx.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I see no mention of physical comedy or use of hands.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:25, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
      • It's in the personality section, I didn't use the popmatters source though.--Music26/11 15:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Awards

• "2003 onward" should be changed so the reader is certain whether the article has been updated for the most recent year.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Fixed.--Music26/11 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to say nice review, and I'm glad you came back Tony. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 07:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Has there been any updates to this nomination? It is currently one of the longest-held nominations at GAN. Gary King (talk) 16:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

When you combine a slow reviewer and a slow editor. This is what you get. We are making progress, but it is slow. If we are up against a deadline this would fail for lack of detail on mannerisms and such, but we are making progress.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

That's mostly my fault, I hope you don't mind.--Music26/11 16:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

• Why were the dates removed for three refs in the Trudy death section?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)