Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn

Soviet victory over...

This line has changed from fascism (incorrect) to nazism (correct) to nazi germany (historically correct, but symbolically incorrect). Based on the context of the statement, it can be inferred the bronze soldier is meant to symbolize the more abstract victory of soviet ideology over nazi ideology (a common theme with the soviets), not the soviet state over the nazi state. Additionally, listing it as a victory over fascism is both historically and symbolically incorrect, as nazi germany was not a fascist state, and the soviet victory over germany did not end fascist regimes elsewhere around the world (nor did it stop new ones from springing up from time to time) - which mostly fell later without soviet intervention (Italian Social Republic, Franquist Spain, Estado Novo, et al). It did, however, spell the end of state nazism. --NEMT 14:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The symbolism is Soviet victory over "evil". Depending on country and language "evil" might be replaced by any one of these. For American readers the word Nazi Germany would be easiest to undestand, as this word has come to represent WW II genocidial enemies. The Soviets however would always use the word "fascism". -- Petri Krohn 21:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that first wiki link. Additionally, while the soviets may not have made a distinction between nazism and fascism, history and logic have. --NEMT 21:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the "evel" link. As for faschism vs nazism, do we want to mirror Soviet POV (As you yourself note) or internationally agreed-upon consensus? Ethnonazi 00:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The Knievo-Soviet War is too often forgotten in history. Anyway, this article says "nazi germany" [1]--NEMT 04:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Criminal element among "protesters"

Pealinna tuntud kriminaalid kaitsesid pronkssõduri (in Estonian, "Known criminals protected the statue" (freely translated/quoted): "Other criminal activity was reduced by half in Tallinn during the protests, despite the fact that almost whole police force was in the city center. Photos and videos of the protesters and looters, however, show many well-known criminals among them - quite often as group leaders and most active." Not sure if it is relevant or not - probably is, to show what kind of people were leading the protesters - but how to include it to the article? DLX 16:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The Kosovo Liberation Army also started as a gang of criminals. Now they are handed a state on a silver platter. So, what's your point? -- Petri Krohn 21:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

They're still a gang of criminals. --NEMT 21:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

These persons were no ordinary "criminals", but known figures from organised crime syndicates. MAFIA. 123

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.54.91.25 (talk) 22:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

The article quotes policemen saying they recognized many faces - as in, previously arrested for criminal conduct - among the crowd. Pickpockets, drug dealers, etc. Ethnonazi 23:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

This can still be viewed as personal and possibly biased judgement call. It's probably more significant to add the fact that a number of previously unsolved crimes were solved due to DNA testing of the people arrested on the riots. Unfortunately, I'm too sleepy to hunt down the quotation for that right now. Digwuren 10:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Please find a source about that - should be definitely included to the article. DLX 05:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

“Disproportionate use of force?”

Quoting the article: International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights: "According to media reports as well as reports received by the IHF, police in some cases used disproportionate force against riot participants. - Could anyone specify, which media reports did the Federation use as sources? Russia Today, NTV? Estonian Television? E.J. 16:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• EPL has published a bit sanitized account of experiences of one such detainee (who was innocent and who has provided his full name in the paper):
  http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/384182 (the longer version is at http://itaever.blogspot.com ).

The writing genre is clearly artful, not documentative, which has raised concerns of mixing fact with fiction in this account. Unfortunately, it means this account can not be used as a proper source. Digwuren 19:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• Minister Pihl defended the use of force to protect democracy: http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/384310

-BStarky 19:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

International responce

USA official press statement related press conference transcript

“ We welcome President Ilves' call today for reconciliation among Estonia's citizens and for dialogue between Estonians and Russians. ”

The Americans do not seem to get it! No mention of the main party in this conflict, Estonia's Russian non-citizens. Reconciliation among Estonia's citizens will not help in this dispute. -- Petri Krohn 23:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

State Dept's phone number is 202-647-4000. Enjoy. Ethnonazi 23:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The USA supports actions of Estonian authorities, you said? It's normal. What else one could expect from the country with ~ 350 years of history, based on violence Sea diver 06:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} Please consider protecting section 6 "Political reaction" of the main article due to frequent vandalizing by unregistered users. I think I have exhausted 3rv rule already. See reverts made by me and other users.--Bete 16:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

This page is semiprotected already; there is no facility to fully protect only one section of an article. To request protection in general, please use WP:RFPP. CMummert · talk 15:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Causality and secrecy

The Estonian side seems to be pushing two (non-factual) POVs that contradict each other. The first is, that there were originally no plans to remove/relocate/demolish the memorial, only to conduct excavations. The lead now states:

“ In April 2007, work was began to exhume the graves for reburial at a military graveyard. A number of people saw it as a danger to the monument, and as a possible final preparation in removing it, and several protest pickets were held in support of the monument on April 26. On the evening after the pro-monument demonstration, the worst rioting Estonia has seen ensued, and early next morning, a crisis meeting of the Cabinet of Ministers decided to relocate the statue immediately for security purposes... ”

The above clearly tries to imply, that the removal was a response to the riots and the security threat. At the same time, the same editors claim that there was no (state) secrecy around the plans, and everything (except for a detailed timeline) could be freely read from the Estonian press. Both of these views cannot be true at the same time.

It seems clear to me that plans for the removal had been done in secrecy well in advance, without consulting Estonia's Russian minority. Suggesting some kind of a causality beween the the riots and removal is a blatant lie, and political propaganda by the Estonian government. -- Petri Krohn 23:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You're incorrect. The _plan_ for relocation lead to _riots_ which lead to faster than planned _relocation_. Ethnonazi 23:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

There have been general plans to relocate the monument since about the last winter. However, the *work* that was begun in April 2007 involved only archaeological digs, to check on the hypothesis that war graves were under the monument. This was important to establish the legal classification of the monument: if war graves would be found, it would be a grave marker, and would be relocated to a graveyard once reburial of the war victims was completed; if war graves would not be found, it would be a political art ensemble and would be relocated to a museum. The rules for the archaeological investigation, as well as detailed handling of the first scenario, are detailed in the War Graves Act.

However, rioting broke out. One of the security concerns was that the rioters could damage the monument, and this was considered unacceptable. Factoring this and other considerations, the Security Council advised the Government to remove the statue; the Government held a crisis meeting, and agreed. It was published in an early morning press release shortly afterwards (which meant that the release was too late for newspapers of the day, but it was covered in early morning TV news and, of course, the newspaper's Internet editions), and a few hours later, the monument's relocation was confirmed complete. As by that time, it was still not yet clear whether war graves would be found (the first digging attempts having yielded no graves; also, monument's removal required vehicle access, which disrupted digging), the monument was not moved straight to a graveyard but first, to an undisclosed workshop.

When first confirmations of war graves were reported, work was commenced on reinstalling the statue on the military cemetery; the mastaba could not be reerected without a proper concrete foundation due to its weight, and works on getting the mastaba back were postponed to after the May 8-9 celebrations, mainly out of aesthetical considerations for the look of the monument's new environment during the celebrations. The mastaba consisted of calcium-cemented dolomite and was not hollow, which means that not only pouring the new foundation but also relaying the mastaba will take more time than the few days that were left between end of April and May 8. Digwuren 11:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

There now appear to be signs that the claims of secrecy are not entirely baseless, but not through any actions by the Government of Estonia. Instead, there are signs that several important tidbits, such as the intent to relocate, not just tear down, the monument, were not duly published in a number of Russian-language newspapers, even though they were widely covered in Estonian-language newspapers; thus, it is not unreasonable to expect that many ethnic Russians would not have had access to those tidbits in advance, and would believe they had been secret once they learnt of them. If confirmed, this should probably be documented in the article. I think it ties to the Language Divide issue slightly explained in Bronze Soldier of Tallinn#Background, and interacts with Bronze Soldier of Tallinn#Pro-rioter propaganda. Digwuren 22:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Please tell me In what country aren't the topics discussed in security council a State secret? This tidbit Is totally irrelevant in this context as in the article cited. It was a stamp response of a press bureau to an inquiry, the same response that would be given on questions of any other security council meeting, nothing more. --Alexia Death 09:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant?

'Estonian support for Nazi Germany'

'Also, many Estonians tend to regard the Nazi occupation as less harmful for Estonia than the Soviet one, in terms of human loss, violence, economic destruction etc.[citation needed] This, and the fact that during WW2 Estonians were conscripted to the Waffen-SS (notably the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) as well as to the 8th Estonian Rifle Corps of the Soviet Army, has led to accusations of pro-Nazi (or fascist) sentiments among Estonians.'

First, the headline is POV, designed to draw attention in TOC. Secondly, the 'Background' section presents both sides' positions and grounds thereof cealry and concisely, hence this snippet is unneeded fluff. Thirdly, it's logically faulty: 'Estonians were conscripted by one side as well as other side, leading to accusations of them being partial to one side'. Hmm? Ethnonazi 23:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed that section, it was all irrelevant, POV and unsourced. DLX 05:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not entirely agree. The headline was, indeed, POV. However, the view of Estonians as die-hard Nazi supporters and adherents to fascist policies is an important issue regarding the monument's fate in minds of a number of people, and the view was also a major thread in the surrounding propaganda campaigns. Hence, the background of these claims, and the misconception that military (forced) allegiance means sharing political views, should probably be briefly explained. Unfortunately, I lack proper understanding of the full background, so I won't be doing that.

I do agree, however, that the section as it stood was unserviceable, and I believe it's a good thing it was removed until a better section would be written. Digwuren 11:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Gazputin

Amid the developing dispute between Russia and Estonia, the Swedish National Radio's senior correspondent to Poland, (and its correspondent to the Soviet Union for more than a decade) Kjell Albin Abrahamson, has namned the Russian President Putin - "Gazputin", saying: "With oil and gas, he has succeded, where the Soviet Union - despite having neuclear weapon - failed". Gazputin. --Camptown 09:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

New intro

I think we should create new intro which should start with the information about what and where the bronze soldier currently is, not what it was. The history part should ofcourse be mentioned, but it is quite POV to start with it as if the statue was demolished. Also the main image should be replaced with the current one. Estonia will never return the statue to it's previous place, so we should get over it. Suva 09:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget, though, that the article is about a monument and a mass grave, and not just the bronze sculpture. Camptown 10:08, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not yet time to declare that the monument is on its new location. The mastaba has not yet been relocated, and the war victims have not yet been reburied. Furthermore, the statue's former location is still politically important. In an important sense, the statue standing alone in its new location is just a pictographical sign: "The monument will be here.".

I will support stating the new location as primary after June. Digwuren 11:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is about the Soviet war memorial and its symbolic meaning to Russian and Estonian people. Any information to the relocated bronze statue can go to Defence Forces Cemetery of Tallinn. -- Petri Krohn 02:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

War Graves Protection Act

"On January 10, 2007, Riigikogu passed the War Graves Protection Act, with 66 votes in favor and 6 against[18], initiated by the Estonian Reform Party, Social Democratic Party, Res Publica Party and Isamaaliit Party."

Why does it lists votes and involved parties? If the law was passed then it is for everyone to follow and to indicate that some party made the law has no relevance in this article. 194.204.35.117 09:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

As long as there is no separate article on that Act there is no other place where to put the details. Andres 12:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The details are irrelevant in this article's context. You're welcome to *make* that separate raticle, though. Digwuren 21:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Following paragraph is a POV and speculation: "Another effect of the law was that it placed all war graves under the jurisdiction of the Estonian Ministry of Defence. Tõnismägi being city land, municipal cooperation would have been necessary for exhumation and/or monument removal without such legislation. As Estonian non-citizens are allowed to vote in municipal elections and are largely in support of retaining the statue, the City Council of Tallinn has a large Russian representation; any approval was unlikely in the foreseeable future. The law eliminated the need to negotiate with the municipal government for war grave related business — specifically, exhumation of the buried bodies and, if the corpses would be found, relocation of the monument which would then be considered a grave marker." 194.204.35.117 10:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It may be speculation by its content. However, it is not a new or independent speculation, and such speculation formed an important basis for considerations of the War Graves Act. Somebody with confidence in handling parliamentary stenographic records should try to find out the specific quotations for sources, though. It's a pity TV transmissions of the Parliament are not recorded on the web like ETV news are. Digwuren 11:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I think this is not POV and not speculation but it needs reference. Andres 12:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It may be appropriate to reduce the speculation to the present municipal government refusing such cooperation. This is easier to back up, as that has been published in newspapers, and we won't need to dig through the stenographic records. Digwuren 21:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Rename article proposal

I would suggest to replace the current title to Bronze Soldier of Tallinn removal controversy. This article hardly goes about the statue itself (only a short section about the building and design), but goes about the controversy surrounding the removal of the statue. Sijo Ripa 10:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there is very little on the statue itself - mostly about the controversy. I support splitting the article. --MoRsE 10:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

A vote on this has been held, and unfortunately archived. The consensus was that it is too early for splitting. I agree, but I also agree with splitting once the controversy is over, the monument has been fully relocated, and clearer dividing lines can be drawn between the monument as a structure and the controversy around the monument. Digwuren 11:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The article may perhaps be renamed when the controversy has settled down a little bit. For the time being, it's probably a good idea to keep the name as it is. result of latest vote, Camptown 14:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I would probably support that, too. Digwuren 17:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we keep this article under the present name and split off / start a new article under Russian - Estonian diplomatic controversy or Russian - EU diplomatic controversy (or something similar). -- Petri Krohn 16:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose: I vote for keeping all information in one place until things slow down. If we split it up now, with edits happening every few minutes, what we'll get will be two or more articles with similar information, some of which will always be out of date. Somebody aready tried to split this article up, and the resulting article is likely to be deleted for the abovementioned reasons. As for the above suggestion, figuring out where the "statue controversy/riots" ends and the "diplomatic controversy" begins is far, far worse a task than separating "statue" from "statue controversy", and likely to result in even more confusion. So at the moment, I think we should keep everything in one place until things cool down. A few weeks, perhaps. Esn 07:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I never suggested to split the article up, just to rename it... Sijo Ripa 09:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but if you renamed it, another article would certainly be created about the statue itself. That's where you'll start to get duplication of effort... although, I think it would be prefferable to rename THIS article to "Bronze Soldier of Tallinn controversy" and create a new article for the statue than the other way around. That way, the outdated information on current events will be in the statue article. Esn 04:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of "Russian" instead of "Soviet"

"It is also seen as a symbol of mass murder and deportation of Estonians by Russian occupation forces in 1949, when around 20,000 innocent Estonians were deported to Siberia to the GULAG."

I think one should should change "Russian" to "Soviet" because it happened in the time of Soviet Union. Otherwise, one can assume that only ethnic Russians deported ethnic Estonians, which is obviously untrue. I would also mention that Russians have suffered from the Soviet rule in much greater proportion.

I agree, it should be changed in places where Soviet is appropriate. DLX 16:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, but it probably needs some explanation.

This sentence explains feelings of the Estonian population. In feeling of many, many Estonians, the occupation was performed by "Russians", not a widespread coalition of "Soviet states". Hence, it is correct to say that many Estonians see the monument as a symbol of Russian occupation, even if technically, the occupation was performed by the USSR, not Russia.

Furthermore, "Russia" and "Soviet Union" are frequently used synonymously in Estonian political discourse, similarly to how in Russian political discourse, the Nazis are invariably called "fascists".

Perhaps, something like "... seen as a symbol of mass murder and forced deportation of Estonians by Russian (see USSR) occupation forces ..." would be a good wording. Digwuren 17:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Side note: The Russian Federation is a successor of USSR, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.204.35.117 (talk) 18:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

As are a whole bunch of other countries, some of which have preserved the Soviet system to a much greater extent than Russia has. No, I vote for changing to "Soviet", but with a note beside it that many Estonians see "Soviet" as synonymous with "Russian". And THAT statement would have to be sourced, of course. Esn 07:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I could find only one case of "Russian" being used instead of "Soviet", and I've changed it (see this edit). Esn 07:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:V

Most en.Wikipedians, including myself, do not speak Russian or Estonian. Citing Russian or Estonian sources endangers WP:V, as it is impossible for contributors to verify these sources. Especially, in controversial events, non-involved contributors could increase the NPOV. Considering the worldwide media attention to this controversy, I think it should be possible to replace most non-English sources with English language sources. Sijo Ripa 09:18, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Good luck with finding English sources. I am afraid, that we must go mostly with current sources, as English sources tend to give just overview and not to go into detail. Also, with Russian sources, it is possible to use Google Translate to translate them into English - but of course we cannot refer/cite to them like that. DLX 10:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

And using Finnish sources is even worse, because no one can check them also citing some back water Finnish news paper you can confirm or removing anything since the vas majority of Finns will go above and beyond to paint any form of Russian in any shape in a bad way And it does not fit with Credible sources since the only reason THE ONLY REASON it exists is to diss Russians in any way shape or form. "but also their claim to rights in Estonia" is nothing but Finnish propaganda spewed on by anti Russo people who only want ONLY want to kill all Russians and paint them in a bad light RUSIIA HAS NO CLAIMS TO ESTONIA, the sentence is nothing but anti Russo propaganda by an anta Russo person which he found in an anti Russo paper in an anti Russo country and the source is not in English Soliddoes 10:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Please see Sources in languages other than English. Besides, there are several editors here who speak/read Finnish just fine, including myself. Also, don't claim that they are in any way things like "vas majority of Finns will go above and beyond to paint any form of Russian in any shape in a bad way", unless you can back your claim with valid source, because right now you are spreading hatred and prejudice. If you cannot stop it, please leave Wikipedia. I can promise, that Finnish source will be replaces with English as soon as source can be found - however, as of now Finnish source will have to be reinstated, because as a source it is better then no source. Stop removing perfectly valid source, please. DLX 11:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The most important thing where did the article creator get his facts from did he make a poll in Russia Polling all 140 million people and asking them OR did he just write what he FEELS like and his PERSONAL view and what he FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELS like and not based on a real scientific research, where are the hard facts that PROVE that the MAJORITY of RUSSIANS believe that they have claims to Estonia and that the STAUE symbolizes those claims, where are the scientific polls that prove that the MAJORITY of the 140 million believe that the statue is a symbol of their so called claims to Estonia and where are the scientific polls that prove that they believe that they have any claims to Estonia? Please stop adding false lies that are not based on any scientific research and I would urge you to read the link you yourself just posted because it clearly says to use reliable sources and not just what one person in one country that happens to write for a news paper thinks. Soliddoes 11:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Only Russian government could conduct such a large-scale and expensive research in Russia (considering the massive area Russia has). But I kinda doubt they would. --82.131.58.134 17:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

You have violated WP:3RR rule and various other Wikipedia guidelines. As you are new to Wikipedia, I will refrain from reporting you at this time, but please stop now. DLX 11:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Your assumptions on the bias of the Finnish language source are totally wrong. You may be right that Finnish sources are generally anti-Russian. This article is one of the few exceptions. I am not going to translate for you the article, but I will give you a summary of the comments it has generated on the web page.

Of the five commentors, two are threatening to cancel this subscriptions, not only to Taloussanomat, but to all of Sanoma WSOY magazines and newspapers. Two are calling for all Russians in Estonia to be sent "back to Russia". All seem to be outraged by the pro-Russian tone of the article. -- Petri Krohn 11:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. As to the article and its content: The article is published in Taloussanomat, one of the two leading business papers in Finland. (The other being Kauppalehti.) It is published by Sanoma WSOY, Finland's largerst and one of Europe's leading magazine publishers. The Article is titled "Russains Saying Farewell to Bronze Statue". It is an interview of members of Nochnoy Dozor done at the memorial the night before its demoli relocation. The one of the people intervied is German Katkowski; he says that there is no worse way to insult the minority, than to tamper with the statue. He adds that moving the statue is the worst way imaginable to hurt him personally. Artur (refuses to give last name) of Jewish - Estonian backgound says that for Estonia there is no way more effective in informing the minority population, that they have no rights in Estonia. Larissa is saying farewell to the statue because she has no trust in the promise of the Government of Estonia to reassemble the statue at the Military Cemetery in Pirita. -- Petri Krohn 11:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Shows what she knows, Pirita is on the other side of town from the militaqry cemetery. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 15:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with Sijo Ripa. Right now the article is hardly verifiable for me. Hopefully, when the controversy dies out, the content gets cleaned up (it happened this way with many Wikipedia articles on current events).Yury Petrachenko 07:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I wonder why this Taloussanomat article is referred to at all in the description of the background, as it is only an interview of a handful of people with a question "How do you feel right now?" (see Krohn's translation). I have seen an article where this "but also their claim to rights in Estonia" appears (the phrase was not in its direct form in this article), but the content of the phrase was not a claim of Russia on territory or anything such, but rather equal rights to the ethnic Russian minority with the ethnic Estonians. Unfortunately, I cannot remeber the paper, but I guess it was Aamulehti. My suggestion is to replace this reference with something that really sheds light on the background.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.197.149.114 (talk • contribs) 00:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Наши

Why did the Putin loyalis who were protesting outside the Estonian Embassy disappear only hours after the NATO had demanded the Russian Government to observe the Geneva convention? --Bondkaka 11:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Because ambassador Marina Kaljurand had left Moscow. -- Petri Krohn 12:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The russian delegation in estonia stated that they can but they won't call back the наши because they were afraid of the riots in moscow. The early vacation of Marina Kaljurand was good enough "victory" to serve them and to solve the situation peacefully, so they were called back. The vacation lasts only two weeks though. Suva 12:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Not calmed down yet, though, nashists stormed press conference of estonian COnsul in St.Petersburg [2]. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 18:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

POV-ness and relevnace of Linter story

On the night of April 27 Dmitri Linter was at home keeping multiple contacts with the press still, according to his wife , Marina Linter, he was arrested by unknown people, some in uniform of Estonian police. After two hours after his detention Linter appeared in the Mustamäe hospital under an intravenous line. After arrival of his family Linter in unconscious state was moved by police in an undisclosed location and on the next day his arrest was officially announced. Despite all the pleas of his wife neither Linter's location nor his state of health were revealed . On the other hand according to representatives of the prosecutor-general’s office of Estonia, it was part of an "ordinary investigation." "The content of the interrogation and the testimony are not made public in such cases in the interests of the investigation"

Looks like POV psuhhing and IRRELEVANT to this story. It has Nothing to to with the soldier at all except the fact of arrest witch was already mentioned, and I cant verify the sources since they are ALL in russian. Belongs to an article about Linter, if not rejected as POV.--Alexia Death 12:50, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Well the phrase as it stated now alleges that there is something unusual in request to meet this activist. On the other hand, bearing in mind that his wife a Russian citizens feels internet with her pleas for any information about the health of her husband the demand to check the conditions of the guy appears to be reasonable (unlike some other demands of the Duma group). There are quite a number of automatic translators from Russian (unlike Estonian, BTW) so reading online sources should not be very difficult. Anyway, since there is now an article about Linter I would try to shorten the text Alex Bakharev 13:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do keep in mind that throughout this conflict Russian media has shown his disregard for telling the truth. Im not saying anything concrete because I have no time to investigate this right now, but still --Alexia Death 13:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It's simply false. Even ITAR-TASS reports [3] that Linter was detained on 28th _after_ 2 nights of rioting. Recommend deletion of whole paragraph as based on false information. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I commented out the details about Linter's arrest until some non-Russian sources can be found. Left a comment as well:

There are no non-Russian sources verifying this. Considering that otherwise Estonian newspapers have followed arrest of Linter very closely and reported every detail, I am commenting this our until more sources can be found. Please don't uncomment unless you have non-Russian (or derived from them) source for this.

The claim that he was "taken from the Mustamäe hospital been under an intravenous line is a lie, he was taken to the hospital because he claimed to have "various ills", he was given a full medical and declared healthy (http://www.postimees.ee/280407/esileht/siseuudised/257797.php).

I recommend doing the same - ie. commenting out - on Dmitri Linter as well as not reliably sourced. DLX 15:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The Finnish Aamulehti reference was created at 20:21 (updated 22:22) on April 28. Either Linter was arrested on April 27, or we have very fast reporting. -- Petri Krohn 01:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Second option. Estonian media reported the arrest on evening of 28th as having taken place 'today' [4]. However, his apartment was searched on 27th already [5]. Chancellor of Justice visited detained Linter on 29th, reporting he didn't lodge any complaints. Quoting chancellor 'Linter was in similar cell to other detainees, he had no complaints about the conditions of his detention nor use of excessive force during it' [6]. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 09:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Dmitri Linter

I started an article on Dmitri Linter. -- Petri Krohn 12:50, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. - We would need the Russian spelling of the name. -- Petri Krohn 13:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest renaming the article to Dmitry Linter which is the correct transribtion of Дмитрий Линтер. Camptown 14:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by "transribtion"? There are many ways of Romanization_of_Russian. In ISO-9 transliteration Дмитрий would be "Dmitrij"; other possible ways are "Dmitriĭ" or "Dmitriy". Transcription is another thing, but I think in an encyclopedia, names should be transliterated rather than transcribed. -- On the other hand, if that person has a passport and his name written in it, I can't see any reason for not writing his name as it is written in passport. Lebatsnok 10:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Dmitri Linter is an Estonian citizen and his name is transcribed in his passport etc as Dmitri Linter, not as Dmitry Linter. You don't have to transcribe names already officially written in Latin alphabet. 80.235.55.122 18:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, the English transcription Dmitry or possibly Dimitry focuses on the Russian spelling of a Russian name Дмитрий (with its slight y-phonemed "ий"), not of an Estonian transcription of the same Russian name. --Camptown 11:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

That's correct. At the same time, e.g. if Dmitri Linter will apply for the U.S. visa, the U.S. Embassy will issue the visa to Dmitri Linter, not to the Dmitry or Dimitry. Also, if Dmitri Linter prefers that his name is transcribed with "y", he always has the right for changing his documents. So far this didn't happen. Differently from Latvia and Lithuania there is no "estofication" of names. 80.235.55.122 11:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's hope that Wikipedia has higher standards than the kids issuing visa ducuments in Tallinn... Camptown 18:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW, aren't there quite a few people claiming to be leaders of the "Night Watch" organization? When Í listen to Radio Moskva, several young people who have been arrested by the Estonian police are said to have been Night Watch "leaders". Maybe, this organization applies shared leadership? Interestingly enough, the Наши protesters of Moscow seems pretty "syncronized" with the Night Watch, aren't they? --Camptown 18:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Basically, whoever gets airtime is considered the leader. About synchronization... well, both orgs are ran, eventually, by same people. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 20:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Section on German occupation

A number of editors are using great effort to create a section on the German occupation, that keeps appearing and disappearing. The section has not found a proper place, it now interferes with the flow of the text. I do not know if there is really need for including anything about Nazi Germany in the article. I can however think of a few points-of -view the section can illuminate. If you can think of a good reason why the section should stay, please state the POV here. I have no general objection against the section, as long as it is accompaned with the proper ilustration. (As we are talking about Nazis in Estonia, there is but one image.) -- Petri Krohn 13:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not strictly needed, as the positions of both sides are concisely and clearly described in last paragraph of 'Background'. _If_ this gets reintroduced again, I'd say we need to add a paragraph describing Soviet occupation ahead of Nazi invasion as well. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 15:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Alternate flag of Estonia

An unofficial Estonian Scandinavian-style cross design flag has been spotted in recent news reports. How popular is this flag? Camptown 15:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Spotted where? Last I remember it was illustrating an op-ed piece about our need to move closer to other nordic countries, and that was 4-5 years ago. Not seen it since. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 15:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

On a BBC news flash, a man was holding the flag. I think the flag would make a suitable naval ensign. Camptown 18:20, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Riight, that refreshes my memory somewhat. The article was followed by a few weeks of debating (slow news period) about wherher we should change it, with the eventual consensus being 'why?'. Didn't know some actually got made. Quite possible that some org uses it nowadays. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 20:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Translation websites

Because of a concern raised a little way above, I think it would be a good idea if people take the time to list translation websites that do a good job of translating these different languages. That way people who don't speak those languages can check if they really need to.

For Russian, Google translate and babelfish do an acceptable job. Google is usually easier to read, but it sometimes makes really weird errors (eg. translating a sentence as the exact opposite of what it means) so I recommend checking it against the babelfish translation.

What about Estonian or Finnish, or the other languages? What are the best translating websites for them? Esn 05:04, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a page like Google translation or AV Babelfish for Estonian, but the "Institute of the Estonian Language" English-Estonian dictionary is here. And more can be found in the External links section of Estonian language. -- 82.131.29.83 05:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I have not found any online translators for Finnish, least for Estonian. Now most of the references in the article are to Estonian language articles in Postimees and Eesti Päevaleht. Postimees also has a Russian language version online. Whe should try to find the corrsponding Russian language article to the one referenced, and include both links in the reference. This way monoglot readers can run the article through Babelfish to acces the information. -- Petri Krohn 05:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

From Finnish to English you could use this online translator http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?from=Finnish&to=English, but of course, the translation is not the best one. 80.235.55.122 06:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Socialist realist?

Is the monument really a good example of socialist realism? Ignoring the hammer and sickle, I really don't see it.--Pharos 07:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

It isn't. But try explaining it to whomever injected that... Edgar Vares-Barbarus 10:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I think Ghirlandajo makes an interesting point: "It is a rather boring example of Socialist Realism", and, the "mastaba-like structure may be compared to the colossal pedestal for Worker and Kolkhoz Woman. The existence of such architectural appendages does not make architectural terms applicable to the statues in question. The core of the dispute is the statue, not the structure behind it". --Camptown 10:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, every officially accepted by the Soviet officials piece of art created in the Soviet Union since 1930ies was automatically labelled socialist realism. Any other ism automatically meant that it is some sort of an underground or forbidden art. The Bronze Soldier was created in the SU afte in 1947 and was obviously officially accepted, ergo it is a socialist realism. On the other hand if we assume that socialist realism is an art movement with some principles then the Bronze Soldier is obviously not socialist realism.

This is a statue of a stereotypical Estonian (with every effort put to show that he is not Slav) in a Red Army uniform put against a stylized old fortress wall (might be the walls of Olde Tallinn or historical Estonia in general). The soldier is in a deep sorrow. There is no clue what he is sorrow about. You can put everything from the sorrow about his dead multinational comrades from Soviet Army to the sorrow about the lost independence. The Sorrow was a valid emotion regarding the WWII in 1947 (later since Khrushchev Thaw it would become a common place but in 1947 it was not). The soldier does not prominent communist or Soviet symbols on him. He is not showing triumph of Victory, no a desire to revenge the dead, nor his love to Stalin and communism, nor people friendship. His weapon is barren on his back and only a burden for him... Sorry but for 1947 Soviet Union it was an absolutely outrageous violation of Socialist Realism cliches. In 1949-1953 it would send the author to GULAG. In 1960ies it would be a brave novation. In 1980ies it might be a common place.

In the days of my youth Estonian writer Enn Vetemaa (shame on all us that he is a red link) was hugely popular in Saint Petersburg - in Russian translations obviously. He had a novel The Monument about a young Estonian sculptor designing a monument to WW2 dead. The monument cannot be the Bronze Soldier but all the problems and compromises of the hero are applicable to the Bronze Soldier. Alex Bakharev 13:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, it doesn't sound that boring... ;) Anyway, do think you could start the article Enn Vetemaa ? --Camptown 17:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Started, futher work needs an Estonian contributor Alex Bakharev 15:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"Stereotypical Estonian" can't be defined so easily, POV. The wall on the background features the hammer and sickle, the primary symbol of the Soviet Union and communism. Alepik 11:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Certainly, but you almost need a magnifier to detect the hammer and sickle. It's not a main feature of the monument, and I would guess that the hammer and sickle was added on at a late stage of the design of the monument. --Odengatan 12:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

USSR had other symbols than hammer&sickle combo. The stone halo is a WW2 soviet order. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 16:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely!; the solider even has some decorations on his chest, but these symbols are not prominently featured. As does the soldier not rise his iron fist against the sky, crying for revenge, etc, etc... Camptown 16:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Defence Forces Cemetery of Tallinn The first grave

http://www.kalmistud.ee/eng/siselinna_cemetery/introduction as I understand the first grave is from 1916 - Ahsoous 07:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, the site, though, seems currently blocked for foreign internet users. Camptown 10:22, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Could be because of ongoing cyber-attacks. 80.235.55.122 11:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

If the link is not accessible, here's a copy retrieved today. -- Telempe 16:22, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that was very helpful! Camptown 16:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

An interesting detail from TV tonight. When the Soviets took over, the monuments and grave markers (from independence war burials) were demolished, with only the original gate remaining. Some years later, the graveyard was once again designated as 'military' and reopened, this time for soviet soldiers. As a result, quite a few locations there have 2 layers of burials - estonians tend to bury their dead deep, ~2 meters, whereas soviet recruits (cheapest menial labor source in USSR) rarely went deeper than 1.20-1.40. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 18:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

September 1944 in Tallinn

Some co-editors are pushing wording that "Red Army re-taking Tallinn from Nazi Germany in 1944". Technically it's not correct. The general withdrawal of German army from Tallinn began on 17 September 1944. I absolutly agree with Irpen, that "they left not on their own volition but because the Red Army was on their shoulders". However, on 18 September 1944, acting President of Estonia Jüri Uluots appointed a new Estonian government led by Otto Tief. The government published the first Riigi Teataja (State Gazette), and over the radio, in English, declared its neutrality in the war. As German forces were evacuating from Tallinn, the Estonian national flag was raised on Pikk Hermann Tower, over the seat of the Estonian government. However, that's true that this government was not recognized by Germans or by the Soviet Union. The Red Army entered Tallinn only on 22 September. So, it's not correct to say, that Red Army re-took Tallinn from Nazi Germany. I think that it would be technically correct and most neutral to say that Red Army re-entered Tallinn on 22 September 1944.80.235.55.122 08:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a standard position conflict in nearly all WWII articles (at least on Eastern Front): liberation vs liberation from Nazi vs taking vs retaking vs entering vs clearing Nazi vs occupation vs ... It is amazing how much time were spent there with so little result. Re-enetring seems a good choice for the arguments above. Personally I would agree to any wording but liberation and occupation Alex Bakharev 01:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I did not use "liberation", but just vague "re-entered" makes an impression of a sleepy army wondering around Europe "entering" cities like a drunk man roaming the neighborhood "entering" houses with no purpose. The territory was a theater of war between Nazi Germany and the USSR. As the Soviets were on offensive, the Nazis were on the run. That's how this happened, so "re-taken from Nazi Germany" applies. We take no position on Uluots' declaration and legitimacy. In any case his power was a token one (again for the reasons that belong to other articles.) Two major forces were in struggle for the domination over the Eastern Europe and at the time of these events one of them was successful in returning what it earlier lost to another back under its control. --Irpen 02:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

From Russian viewpoint Uluots declaration has minimal importance in grand scale of World War II. But from Estonian viewpoint Uluots declaration was importnant demostration that annexation of Estonia by USSR in 1940 was illegal. Also that has big importnace on Estonian view of Red Army occupation/liberation of Tallinn as it could be said that Tallinn was "liberated" from legal Estonian government. Whole bronze soldier controversy is result of Estonian and Russian different views on WW II history, so I support "re-entered" which is as neutral as possible.--Staberinde 14:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Where do you see anyone pushing for "liberated"? "Re-entered" simply lacks clarity. "Re-taken" is much more contextual. --Irpen 19:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for not making myselfly clear. If we say "re-taken from Nazi Germany" then we immediately assume with that that Otto Tief government that existed between German and Soviet control was unimportnant which is clearly POV(for reasons that I explained at my previous comment).--Staberinde 20:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The existence of Tief's government was important for the History of Estonia where it belongs but not in every article left and right. This article is about the war memorial. We are talking about the moments of military history that brought about the monument. "Re-entered" in this respect is totally misrepresenting the history. Red Army was not wondering the Eastern Europe in semi-comatose entering cities here and there. It pushed out the Nazi forces retaking the control of the USSR pre-war territory. The details indeed belong elsewhere, including the government of Otto Tief. --Irpen 20:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

There were no serious battles in Tallinn so re-entered works fine. And from Estonian viewpoint Thief government is importnant. And current bronze soldier controversy is very strongly related to Estonian view on WW II so Thief government is completely relevant.--Staberinde 20:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If we are talking about Budapest or Berlin, then I would agree with Irpen that "re-takes" is appropriate. However it is a fact that the Nazis vacated Tallinn some three days before the Soviets arrived, therefore "re-enter" is more appropriate. Recall that the Nazis also withdrew from Paris before the allies arrived, and we always talk about the allies re entering Paris, not re-taking it. I also agree with Staberinde that the Tief government is relevant to the Estonian view leading to the Bronze Soldier controversy Martintg 20:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Prototype and style

"The Bronze Soldier is usually referred to as an example of the socialist realism. However, the monument is arguably not a typical example of that style as it violates some important socialist realistic clichés of its time. This is a statue of a stereotypical Estonian - with every effort put to show that he is not Slav - in a Red Army uniform. The soldier does not wear any prominent communist or Soviet symbols. He is not showing triumph of victory or a desire to revenge the dead; nor his love to Stalin and communism, nor people friendship. His weapon is barren on his back and only a burden for him; and he is in a deep sorrow. There is no direct clue to the cause of his sorrow; it could be interpreted as everything from the sorrow about his fallen comrades from Soviet Army, to the sorrow about lost independence. But most significantly: sorrow is not a valid emotion regarding the World War II in the Soviet Union of 1947."

I've noted that this section is continuously deleted by (presumably) Estonian editors for reasons of being "POV". It is, indeed, hard to define perfect truths when it comes to art and artistic styles. But this section is important in order to understand the artistic values of the monument, as it gives new perspectives of a monument that is supposed to be just another tool in the Soviet propaganda; as well as raising justified doubts whether the statue is a just another piece in the social realistic jigsaw. The section should therefore be expanded - not deleted! --Odengatan 08:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The passage refers to statue, not the whole monument. It's POV alright - we can leave (well-sourced) comments on it's artistic merits out until the current controversy is over and the article gets split into the 'monument' and 'controversy' parts. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 09:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

My view: the statue sans mastaba is beautiful, and quite fitting for a cemetery where many soldiers from different sides are buried. The 'sorrowful' look was a reason why a separate, appropriately victorious monument was planned not long after this one's unveiling. But Stalin died and it was cut from the to-do list. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 18:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

What you say here is grounds for expanding the section, not removing it. Do you have a source for the planned "victorious" monument? -- Petri Krohn 01:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The fragment is my talk entry in the "socialist realism?" section above. It is based on some discussion in the livejournal space. I cannot back it up with reliable sources, thus, I obviously agree with the fragment removal (unless you want to attribute it to the "amateur art historian and plastic engineer by trade Alex Bakharev". BTW I am affraid that mastaba comparison is an OR as well Alex Bakharev 00:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed that paragraph. If you can find any WP:RS for artistic criticism, of course that would be great.--Pharos 04:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Split

Maybe it would be a good idea to split the article into two sections, of which one is about the recent controversy? --Winterus 14:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Per recent votes: No, not before May 9. Bondkaka 16:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Background: Russian official view on annexation?

I'm not sure how to interpret this sentence:

Russian-speaking population largely views Estonia's annexation into USSR as a legitimate process; an official view of the Russian Federation.

What does 'an official view' mean here (shouldn't it be the official view)? Is it a perception of Russia's official view by a large part of the Russian-speaking Estonian residents, or the writer meant to say that Russia has indeed expressed this officially? If the latter, please provide a reference. --Mzabaluev 18:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Russia took over Soviet interpretation of history, that's all. Governments don't tend to pubish their interpretations of history in press releases, but fairly good view on what's 'official' can be gained from history textbooks used in public schools. [7] Edgar Vares-Barbarus 18:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Source is here: Комментарий Департамента информации и печати МИД России в связи с высказываниями ряда европейских политиков относительно "оккупации" стран Балтии Советским Союзом и необходимости осуждения этого со стороны России. I tried to put this to the article, but this vandal from Moscow removed this. Interesting, that no administrators' actions still.80.235.55.122 19:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

As the page is semi-protected now, maybe somebody will replace {{fact}} tag inserted by Mzabaluev with this reference? Thanks.80.235.55.122 19:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

That seems so have been done already. But, is there any statistical evidence for the prior claim that "Russian-speaking population largely views Estonia's annexation into USSR as a legitimate process"? Camptown 20:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW are there any pressing reasons for you not to register an account? We are trying to give occasional visitors an opportunity to easily fix typos, errors, etc. but community participation including editorial conflicts over controversial articles are much easier throw an established account. Alex Bakharev 00:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection

The article is currently and temporarily (24 hours) semi-protected. ---Camptown 20:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that all users who are blocked from editing make their suggestions (new edits, sources, critizism etc) below:

I strongly suggest that note on Georgian responce should be deleted as the sources are biased and unofficial. Find an official link like in cases of Belarus and Ukraine. Otherwise, one could cite hundreds of politicians' statements. If source is unchanged, after 24 hour it will be deleted anyway. Beatles_Fab_Four

The official site of Georgian Parliament: [8]. Is this the biased and unofficial site you're referring to? Lebatsnok 10:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you seriously claim that the Speaker of the Georgian Parliament never issued the statement? --Camptown 21:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Answer to Camptown: Do you seriously think that wiki is a marketplace or blog or forum? If not, please, show us any relevant official statement of the Georgian Parliament. Everyone'd be glad. But So far you can't do this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beatles Fab Four (talk • contribs) 22:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

Statement of Georgian Parliament’s speaker is enough well sourced. I would say we were even lucky to get English source because easily could had happened that all sources would had been in Estonian or Georgian. Bronze soldier controversy is not very importnant topic outside Estonia and Russia so oftenly finding English souces is problematical. Also no other editor has protested adding Georgian statement. But I just noticed there seems to be problem with Kyrgyzstan statement source as it does not seem to work properly.--Staberinde 08:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Wall street journal opinion (absolutly biased and impolite) must be deleted from the section other reaction anyway. This is not a responce from a society organization or respected person. If you wish move to links of supporters of relocation. Beatles Fab Four 16:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC) In fact, this is the only opinion of media in other reaction section. Why should opinion of unnamed journalist be placed there? Must be deleted Beatles Fab Four 16:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, indeed, moved Wall Street Journal article to "Supporters of the relocation".--Staberinde 17:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

In what way is Wall Street Journal article "absolutly biased and impolite"? You can get the whole article, if you go there from Google News ([9]). Also, another WSJ article, from Mart Laar ([10]), which makes some very good points about two-facedness of behavior of Russia - the article should be probably included to neutral views, though. DLX 17:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The highly personal and POVed OpEd piece from WSJ does not belong to the Article as a source of anything. Should we look for OpEd pieces in Russian press that label the modern Estonian government as "fascist" and add this all to the article? That piece is mere polemics. Does not belong to the encyclopedic article. --Irpen 19:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Would someone please finally explain the POVness of that article? DLX 19:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPOV requires all significant POVs to be represented, the WSJ editorial reflects the viewpoint of a significant number of people. Irpen's censorship of this WSJ editorial citing POV is nonsense. He contends that this WSJ article is highly personal? Then we should also delete Schroeder's view, his is now a private citizen. Why should the view of the chairman of Gazprom's shareholder committee be given more weight than the view of the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal, a highly respected newspaper? Martintg 20:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

While, the WSJ is indeed a respected mainstream newspaper, its editorial page is rather peculiar, stands out from the rest of the paper and is widely recognized to be highly POVed one. You may start reading on that from our own article The Wall Street Journal#Editorial line. WSJ's editorial is considered rather right-wing even by the US standards. Sure, we can present its POV, if you insist, but what would you say on adding similarly lengthy quotes from the Russian nationalist or left-wing press? --Irpen 01:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be fair. A section should be added for world press reaction, let's include Russian nationalist press too as well as your "rather right-wing" WSJ article. Martintg 10:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree. Editorials and op-eds are POVs by definition.Yury Petrachenko 07:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This is absurd, you're adding all the reactions from various russian religious instances. Is it just me who thinks this is highly irrelevant, I find the WSJ article more relevant (isn't written by either of the parties involved). The estonian archbishop approved the relocation of the statue, not adding since it is irrelevant. Alepik 00:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest respected Estonian users to cool down. Please, read the aforemention reasons for deleting WSJ link carefully. BTW, opinion of your bishop is presented in the article. Beatles Fab Four 01:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Staberinde, can you please put in simple words, what this note on the so-called "prominent" Estonian expert is about? Absolutely unreadable. Beatles Fab Four 20:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I would had simply deleted that part but because that could had been called POV-pushing I tried to make it as accurate as possible. Actual case: Sociologist Juhan Kivirähk wrote very critical article about removal of bronze solder and demanded resignation of government. Then he was heavily criticized for that and some politicians called for discharging him as he works for state. Tammerk in his article condemned that and said that sociologists should have full freedom of speech, and made that comparison to nazi germany.--Staberinde 21:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hi. I'm here because of a request on WP:3O. Since the request was made on the 2nd, there appears to have been heavy editing and discussion, and I'm not sure the request is relevant anymore. If it is, please re-add it, being careful to follow instructions about keeping it neutral and pointing at a particular talk page section. It's also worth considering other options for dispute resolution. Thanks, William Pietri 02:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Occupation of Baltic states

The Occupation of Baltic states article should be linked and maybe a part of discussion moved there. Xx236 08:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Trolleybus stop

currently in article: In 1994 the memorial underwent a "reconstruction". Following the reopening, the visitors found the bronze headstones over the tombs removed as well as the protective barrier surrounding the burial site dismantled and a trolleybus stop was installed right atop the mass grave.
source given: "Свечи совести" для эстонских властей, Vesti, December 20, 2006.
other statement which says that trolley-bus station has been there since 1964:
Ansip: tööde varajane algus Tõnismäel ennetas konflikte, Postimees, April 26, 2007.
Im not myselfly sure exactly what changes were made in 1994 but this thing needs to be sorted out or we will get into never ending edit-war.--Staberinde 21:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Is this the bus stop that started World War III? -- Petri Krohn 02:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The source I added speaks about the dismantling of the protective barrier over the site and further says that "now half of the grave is under the lawn and half under the trolleybus stop" while before it was protected and none were atop of it. Perhaps the trolleybus line was there before and they "reconstructed" the stop after the "reconstruction" of the memorial. I am just trying to reconcile the conflicting statements. If someone who does not read Russian wants some quotes from the source translate, please say so here. Thanks, --Irpen 21:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The "protective barrier"... What did it look like? - Was it some kind of cast iron fence? Camptown 21:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

From the source you linked above:

"Монумент красноармейцам и холм Тынисмяги буквально захоронены под стоянкой троллейбуса, то есть люди топчут их. По-христиански было бы захоронить их там, где они должны быть", - убежден депутат парламента Эстонии Райво Ярви. Рассуждая о христианской морали, официальный Таллин слегка не договаривает: ведь раньше площадка у памятника была огорожена, здесь горел Вечный огонь, а на барельефе были высечены имена всех похороненных здесь солдат. Но в начале 90-х власти независимой Эстонии сами закатали все в асфальт. "Могилу убрали городские власти, это без всякого сомнения. В 1994 году сквер был закрыт на реконструкцию. Сначала украли бронзовые надгробия с могилы, на которых были выбиты имена людей, которые были там похоронены, а потом, когда доски украли, эти надгробия, постаменты, они оказались как бы ни к чему. Убрали и постаменты. И теперь могила, ее половина, находится под газоном, а вторая часть этой могилы находится под троллейбусной остановкой", - рассказывает писатель, исследователь Михаил Петров.

Translation:

"The monument to the Red Army soldiers and the Tonismagi hillock are literally buried under the Trolleybus stop, so the people walk on them. In accordance to the Christian traditions, they should be buried where they should be", sais the deputy of the parliament "Райво Ярви" (not sure how to translit his name back into Estionian, sorry --Irpen) Raivo Järvi. The official Tallinn is somewhat tongue-in-cheek when it speaks about the Christian ethics. Earlier the area around the memorial was fenced off, there was an eternal flame and the names of all of the buried soldiers were embossed in the headstones. But in early-90s the authorities of independent Estonia asphalted this all by themselves. "The grave was removed by the city authorities, there is no doubt about it. In 1994 the park was closed for the reconstruction. First, they removed the bronze headstones where the names were embossed. Then when the plaques were stolen, these headstones, masts have seemed to become unnecessary. So, they removed them as well. And now, the grave, half of it, is under the lawn and the other half is under the trolleybus stop.", - tells the writer, researcher Mikhail Petrov.

--Irpen 23:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's Raivo Järvi. -- 82.131.52.22 23:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The road between the church and the park was widened in early 60s, trolleybus stop is located on the sidewalk of that road. In 1994 the eternal flame was removed and paved over... no clue about the gravestones. As last week's dig confirmed, the burials were in the other side of park from the monument, partially covered with the sidewalk/trolleybus stop. I'm digging through accessible photographs of the site (can't find any maps) to find out what Misha Petrov is talking about. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 00:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, no bronze gravestones to see on photo nr.5 (from 1953) in this document [11]. In fact, it looks like the photographer was standing on top of the graves to take it, and the location of the rectangular flower patch was determined by the park's overall design, not actual burials. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 01:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Quick remark: In Estonian it is "Tõnismäe monument" ("monument" is not capitalized in correct Estonian in this context). Estonian reader.

I am not sure I remember correctly, but I think the trolleybus stop was also widened around mid-eighties - but the burial place was trod over during whole Soviet time, as it was an entrance to the square. Perhaps we can come up with a photo about the stop in sixties, so it can be compared. In any case, one of the main reasons for reburial of the dead and relocation of the statue was exactly that - that the dead might have been under trolleybus stop. DLX 05:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was one of the excuses, but it certainly was not a reason. -- Petri Krohn 05:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri, please read WP:AGF. DLX 06:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Assume good faith applies to other Wikipedia editors, not to government statements. -- Petri Krohn 06:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Further correction, AGF applies only to the edits of the Wikipedia editors. Also, AGF does not say "be a fool". --Irpen 06:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not interested in bus stops. If you support me - sign below.Xx236 07:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank Irpen for providing accurate translation of this article, because this article is a good example of media manipulation. It says: "And now, the grave, half of it, is under the lawn and the other half is under the trolleybus stop." It's natural and logical to understand this sentence this way that after 1994 reconstructions the trolleybus stop was put on the graves. But the article doesn't say this. It describes that now the graves are under trolleybus stop and doesn't say since which time. The reason is, that the trolleybus stop at Tõnismägi was there al the time since opening trolleybus traffic in Tallinn in 1964 or 1965. During reconstructions of 1994 the asphalt pavement on the trolleybus stop was replaced by stone pavement, but the stop itself remained at the same place as during the Soviet times.80.235.55.122 16:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohn again

I remember there were lots of accusations raised at one point (see: Talk:Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn/Archive_3#Petri_Krohn.27s_weird_manipulations); it looks that the user concerned continues with such 'controversial' practices (to say the least):

• Edit summary, which is inciting hatred: Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.
• Adding an image to the talk page with the comment “Is this the bus stop that started World War III?” (you hope the war has begun?)
• doing some canvassing with unabashed offensive comments: “defend both the Russian and the neutral point-of-view in this article, againt a horde of agressive and hostile POV pushers from Estonia?” [12]

Ands so forth. It's time you stopped, because the article (/talk) here is NOT your personal playground, nor is it a place for stimulating hostility. E.J. 07:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, (the comment now on archive page two) what I remember so well (probably because I commented on it then) is his comment that 9th of May celebrations would probably (or in his mind "should"?, taking into account other statements by him) end with Toompea burnt down. -- 82.131.52.22 07:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

HANDS OFF PETRI KRON! ))) Beatles Fab Four 07:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen, I think some remarks that slipped from PK have indeed been unfortunate but his edits to the article are certainly useful. Let's concentrate on the content and hope that Petri will learn from mistakes. --Irpen 07:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

We can hope that - although, last time we had that discussion here, he didn't. Perhaps it is time for Petri to take a short wiki-break. Emotions may start running too high and accusations are flying already. But I must admit that his edit summaries are rather... not nice and his edits seem to push an agenda from time to time. Hopefully this will change without need to involve Wikipedia authorities. DLX 08:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

That comment(Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.) unfortunately demonstrates that other users need to keep eye on neutrality of Petri Krohn's edits.--Staberinde 12:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll probably be labelled as a racist but some of the bias can probably be explained by Petri's russian ancestry. Alepik 16:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Come on guys, Staberinde, DLX and unonimous user from Estonia, you are no better than Petri (I mean non-neutral) Beatles Fab Four 21:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian bitches!

The page titled Tiblad Tõnismäel 26.04.2007 provides a real dilemma. On the one hand it is the best photo document availably on the protest at the monument on April 26. The photos are time-stamped, and show that the police started using tear gas at 21:31. They also do not seem to show any major provocation by the protestors. On the other hand, they are an attack page aganst the protestors and Estonia's Russian community. The title uses the word Tiblad, which could be translated as "Russian bitches" (or "Niggers"). Some of the photograps also seem to be selected to dehumanize proterstors (closeups of man with no teeth).

Leaving out the link would be bad for the article. However I believe it would be wrong to link to the page without warning the reader of its expicit racist message. Not including the title as the link text would only create an ugly easter egg

Also, as this article is about ethnic tensions in Estonia, it is appropreate to include examples of racism and hate speech as references. -- Petri Krohn 03:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no way you could translate "tibla" into "Russian bitch". At best, it is similarly derogatory term like "tscuhna", which is widely used in Russia about Estonians. "Tibla" simply does not have a translation in English, as far as I know. DLX 06:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I tried to track down the aforementioned tchuhnya (чухня). I heard and occasionally used this word meaning "crap". It may be related to чухонец, which is according to Dal's dictionary is St. Petersburg's slang for local Finns. I vaguely remember this word being used by Pushkin. Yury Petrachenko 08:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

По мшистым, топким берегам
Чернели избы здесь и там,
Приют убогого чухонца;
И лес, неведомый лучам
В тумане спрятанного солнца,
Кругом шумел.... А.С. Пушкин

Petri Krohn has not demonstrated that this page is the best photo document available, nor is the article about alleged ethnic tensions, it is about the Bronze Soldier. Adding this link is highly inappropriate, there are many Russian rascist neo-Nazi links that can added too. Martintg 06:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is about the Bronze soldier controversy and the related Estonian ethnic tensions. It was decided before to keep all of these in one place, here. This will later be divided into two or more separate articles about the controversy and the monument. So for now, this is an appropriate place to write about the tensions, before they die out.Yury Petrachenko 07:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a native speaker of Russian and I have never heard the "widely used" word Tsuhna. As for Tiblad, the more exact translation is not "Russian bitch" but "you bitch". If this is used in Estonia as a name for Russians in general, I am very disappointed to find this out. --Irpen 06:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Mrmm, just a question, "tyi suka" (so weird to write Russian with Latin alphabet) would be "you bitch". "Tyi bladt" would translate exactly how? Also, I suspect that by far most Estonians are not aware of the origins of this pre-WWII (afaik) word and use it without realizing the original meaning. Compare it to term also used in Russia about Estonians, "kuraty" (from kurat, the Devil in Estonian, also a common swearing word). And you must admit that perhaps those rioters (more then 2/3 with criminal record) were not perhaps the best representatives of Russians (before you accuse me of racism, I have several Russian friends, one of my relatives is married to a Russian. I car-pool with a half-Russian when coming to work).

As for the "tchuhna", it is pretty widely used about Estonians and Finns. Finnish wikipedia even has a stub about it ([13]), I am sure Petri can translate it for us. DLX 06:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think this whole "Tibla" thing is a strawman. Should we search for one or two private Russian websites that contain insulting or racist comments, then post it as "evidence" that Russians are rascist in general, as Petri Krohn has done in regard to this private Estonian website? That kind of cheap shot shouldn't be too difficult I suspect. Martintg 07:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Again DLX and other estonian users try to move discussion out of context. I personally never never heard or read words tsuhna or kurat. But this is not the main question. Look at relevant russian articles/blogs and look how they call estonians. The strongest expression is "fascists" used by some. Here we have the whole page called "tiblad". A could cite another couple of links. So the issue raised by Petri is justified. Beatles Fab Four 07:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Finnish article in WP is not a source of anything. Several native Russian speakers here say that they have not heard those as you say widely use derogatory names for Estonians and Finns. I know a couple of anecdotes, yes, but those have no such terminology and the anecdotes that I know are rather inoffensive. Much less than the American Polish Jokes which are rather harsher and dumb. --Irpen 07:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It may be just me, but I see a term "fascists" by far more insulting and derogatory then name derived from common swear phrase, but that really isn't the issue here. Petri's note was very much out of line - as was inclusion of this web link. Sure, there have to be Estonians, who hate Russians (I don't know any), but they are extremists. So, do we start including links from Russian neo-nazis/neo-stalinists/putinists as well or shall we keep this an encyclopedia?

As for the "tchuhna", please use a Russian search engine - using Russian spelling, of course, as well. DLX 08:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Here you go [14].Yury Petrachenko 08:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit summary

Generally one should not read too much into edit summaries. They do not have the same authority as edits in talk pages or articles. Also, they are limited to 200 characters, so the true meaning may not fit into the space.

Regarding this edit summary: One should note it was part of a edit war with a pro-Russian editor. The whole exchange is repeated below:

1. renamed section to - →Protest and riots - + photos: Tiblad Tõnismäel 26.04.2007
2. what a link with RACIST nickname for non-estonians is doing here?!
3. restored link. 1) Excellent set of photograps documents peaceful nature of protest. 2) Caveat clearly states out derogatory nature of page title
4. I strongly disagree. It harasses non-estonian readers
5. Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.
6. Only few estonians are racists. We shouldn't follow this behavior. Be polite, please!
   1. ok?
7. moved note to refs

Now that I have more than 200 characters available, I will rephrase the comment:

• You User:Beatles Fab Four, as an pro-Russian editor, should forget the insult and support this formulation, as it gives support to the Russian view that many Estonians are racists, even giving credibility the the depiction of Estonians as born again Nazis.

-- Petri Krohn 04:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, your formulation slanders the majority of good Estonians who don't hold the views of a small extremist minority. Should we characterise all Russians by the few Russian neo-Nazi skinheads we occasionally see in the media? Martintg 06:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I was clearly stupid to expect Petri Krohn to realize his mistake and appologise. But I guess that as all Estonians must be racists then I do not deserve appologise in his view. And now Petri Krohn has openly admitted [15] that he is pushing anti-Estonian POV and is calling other Russians to follow his lead.--Staberinde 07:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we all realize that Petri's remark was an unfortunate one. However, two days have passed and it is time to move on. If you need an apology, I can give you one on behalf of the Russian-speaking community. Trying to extract an apology from someone against their will is rather silly, IMO. If you really can't move on past this, start an RfC. I would rather discuss the article and put this incident behind. --Irpen 07:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I do not demand an appology, just I thought it would be good way to calm down situation and show some respect. And I personally will not start RfC(although someone else may). Also I do not think that we need to continue discussing it here at the moment, but I seriously doubt that these remarks will be forgotten. Btw, I do not blame Russian-speaking community, stupididy has never recognized ethnic borders.--Staberinde 07:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Image

Yes, I did add an image of the grave site to this talk page, to the sections discussing the exact location of the graves and the bus stop. A also took the picture and uploaded it to Wikimedia Commons.

As to the comment/image caption. It has been speculated that this conflict may cause an new Cold War between Russia and the West. One must ask whether the Estonian government was aware of the consequences of its actions. It seems to me that they were aware, and acted partly as a provocation. In the parliamentary elections this was one on their themes, mayby even the deciding factor in the outcome. If this controversy ever leads to war, hot or cold, I hold the Estonian government responsible. -- Petri Krohn 05:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Political reactions

This section has became very long and probably needs to be copyedited:

1. In some cases (eg Serbia) we have a full statement included. I think that statements and reactions should be summarized and provide just the main point(s). Full statements should be avaible through reference links.

   Serbia does not not have the full statement. (I wish it had, as that statement best expresses the sentiment of the opposition to the "relocation". -- Petri Krohn 04:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC))

2. One co-editor tryd to regroup the statements of the former USSR. All that kind of groupings are POV. Most neutral will be re-arrenge the statements in alphabetical order or in accordance with the timeline (date and time of issuing).
3. One co-editor asked that only statements from the official websites of state institutions should be inserted. At the same time presidents, prime ministers, foreign ministers and speekers of the Parliaments are represent the official view of their countries without any additional credentials if it's not clearly statedthat eg they present their personal view. So, in case we don't have an official statement, but e.g. an interview to the newspaper, it could be equal to the official point of view. Of course, this doesn't apply to personal blogies.80.235.55.122 17:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Photos and coordinates

This article consists 4 pictures of the Bronze Soldier at Tõnismägi, and no pictures at the Cemetery of the Estonian Defence Forces. Do we have any photo of the monument at the new location? Also, probably the coordinates of the new location should be added? 80.235.55.122 17:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not know if outside world can access these, but some pictures are available at delfi.ee:

http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/eesti/article.php?id=15848451
http://g.delfi.ee/images/pix/file15851844_Pronkssodur.jpg
http://g.delfi.ee/images/pix/file15851814_Andrus_Ansipi_lilled_pronkssodurile.jpg
Other issue is if these pictures can be used in Wikipedia. 194.204.35.117 19:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Dolomite/limestone

Just a quick (translation) question - is "mastaba" made of limestone or dolomite? DLX 19:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a limestone.194.204.35.117 19:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It is made of paekivi. The Estonian article however does not specify whether paekivi is limestone or dolomite. As far as I understand, the base rock in Tallinn contains magnesium, making the local stone dolomite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Petri Krohn (talk • contribs) 02:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Yes, I was aware of paekivi - just wasn't sure what is the correct translation, limestone or dolomite. However, I am not sure it is made from local (ie base rock in Tallinn) stone. Highest quality dolomite comes from Saaremaa or Southern Estonia, but the stone wall doesn't look that high quality - but of course, limestone and dolomite darken in weather, especially if lots of nearby traffic. Very minor matter, but perhaps we should go with just "stone" until some kind of source can be found? DLX 05:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is one source for dolomite: the original name of the proposal by Arnold Alas was "Dolomite". -- Petri Krohn 05:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

DLX

I think respected persons here should stop this provocator. Petri is a child compared to him. Beatles Fab Four 09:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, provide some specific instances of his provocations. 194.204.35.117 09:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

ok immediately a couple. 1) "re-taking" is a neutral tern. Why he constntly deletes it shuting occupation, occupation 2) "Jews were killed by Germans" Who helped them. Who physically killed them. Pushkin? Beatles Fab Four 09:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a native english speaker and definitely "entering" is the correct term. The Nazis left Paris before the Allies arrived, just as in Tallinn, therefore we speak of "entering". "Taking" is more appropriate for Berlin or Budapest, where the Allies had to fight their way in. Martintg 10:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You are a native English speaker with Baltic roots. That changes everything ) Beatles Fab Four 11:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Great Patriotic War" is a POV notion

Great Patriotic War is a Soviet propaganda notion. It should be replaced in the article by a neutral name.Xx236 09:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Russia’s Involvement in the Tallinn Disturbances

The International Centre for Defence Studies (Estonian) has published an overview:
http://www.icds.ee/index.php?id=3&sub=2&L=1
194.204.35.117 09:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if my source is reliable - one of the first found by Google - Russian IntafadaXx236 09:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

This (Russian Intafada) is a strange piece of hatred, at least, if nothing more serious. 194.204.35.117 10:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You are right, the texts there are rather specific. Xx236 10:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Mastaba????

Why is the limestone wall behind the sculpture compared to a mastaba? For me, this comparison doesn't make any sense whatsoever (I can see no similarity here), and it makes a completely wrong impression of the dimensions of the monument to a reader who hasn't seen it. Lebatsnok 10:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)