Talk:1989 Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus attack

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Massacre?

Are you really sure that it is NPOV to describe it as "massacre" and "suicide attack" ? --Magabund 14:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Massacre is defined as the mass killing of unarmed people, which this attack qualifies as. Boston Massacre and Wounded Knee Massacre are other examples. Driving a bus off a cliff qualifies as a suicide attack, as long as the attacker has suicidal intent, its a suicide attack, even though he or she may not be ultimately successful in committing suicide.--Exander (talk) 07:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sources?

Could someone provide reliable, scholarly sources that indicate use of the terms "massacre" or "suicide attack" to describe this incident? Thanks. Tiamut^talk 09:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reviving this discussion because the sources are ... not good. JP and BBC sources are both dead links leaving just Ynet supporting key details by means of trivial coverage – short of the dead sources being restored. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 August 2024

It has been proposed in this section that 1989 Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus attack be renamed and moved to Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus 405 hijacking.

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Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus 405 suicide attack → Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus 405 hijacking

or Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus 405 hijacking and attempted suicide.

– He survived.

FourPi (talk) 14:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ASUKITE 17:36, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Does "405" need to be in the title? Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus suicide attack, Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus attack, and Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus hijacking are red links. Also, should "1989" be added at the beginning of the title for clarity, per WP:NCEVENTS? The second suggested title is definitely too awkward and wordy, and gives the impression that the hijacking and attempted suicide were two different events. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:22, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Almost dedicated journal abstract here has the bizarre phraseology of "commandeered crash", which I do not suggest we use, but it lends itself most to "kidnapping". I also agree that the first is better; the second a mouthful. The date meanwhile might be more meaningful than the bus number. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I understand correctly, it wasn't really a "hijacking" in the normal sense – it was just a sudden turn off the road. A "hijacking" might imply more of a prolonged driving around or a standoff. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps that's where "commandeered crash" emerges from. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So at this point I suggest just 1989 Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus attack. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another way to be concise would be to drop "Tel Aviv–Jerusalem"; I found another candidate title in the List of Palestinian suicide attacks, which is Bus 405 suicide attack. That seems specific enough that it wouldn't need "1989". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:27, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the name is significant because it’s the first example of this kind of attack in the conflict, and his lack of success is not relevant because it’s a category, not a descriptor.

FortunateSons (talk) 18:23, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't call surviving a crash a lack of success. Is their a source stating that his express intent was suicide? If not, then ... Iskandar323 (talk) 19:09, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if he intended suicide (or knew his death was the likely result and was willing to do it anyway), that doesn't mean we need to have the word "suicide" in the title. The title should be WP:CONCISE, without including unnecessary extra commentary, speculation or details beyond what is necessary for WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. I think the current title has too much in it. You could remove at least one of "Tel Aviv–Jerusalem" or "405" or "suicide" and it would still be a perfectly recognizable title for the topic. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sourcing here is actually pretty poor at the moment. The JP source is dead and two of the others are just summaries from prisoner exchange coverage. There's little in-depth substance other than in the journal article I've found, which doesn't say it was suicide, and says the motive appeared to be personal. The whole suicide angle therefore appears quite unsubstantiated both descriptively and in quality sourcing. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:37, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent point. We definitely shouldn't have "suicide attack" in the title if there isn't a clear consensus in sources that this is what it was (or at least that this is part of a clearly-established WP:COMMONNAME for the incident). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Bus 405 hijacking attack or sth. similar would do fine. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:39, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or no hijacking, because I do see the point that just grabbing the wheel for a second doesn't really fall into the domain of a standard hijacking. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:30, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or course, that does depend on whether or not the person meant to die or at least accepted their self-inflicted death. If they believed they would survive, then it’s not particularly smart, but not a suicide attack. Assuming there is bad or no sourcing, just attack might be the cleanest solution, because kidnapping and attempted suicide does not convey the significant casualties. FortunateSons (talk) 21:22, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Replace 405 deaths with the year (1989) and leave off the suicide too as others have mentioned above. Using "hijacking attack" seems like a fair description. -Fnlayson (talk) 18:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Palestine, WikiProject Military history, and WikiProject Israel have been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 17:34, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Note that the nom is blocked as a sock and can't respond. Instead of closing this, I am relisting to see if any of the suggested titles might win consensus, as it appears there is at least some desire to change the title. ASUKITE 17:36, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]