Talk:Imane Khelif

Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2024

Imane Khelif did not fail a gender test, nor does she have "XY Chromosomes," but rather had an elevated testosterone level, which could be caused by any number of medical, physiological or pharmacological means.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/c4ngr93d9pgo Ericawip33 (talk) 14:32, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Yeah I don't know how that got there and I'm frankly kind of annoyed it didn't get taken down sooner. Thanks for flagging it. --AntiDionysius (talk) 14:40, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

A statement put out by the IBA has denied that an elevated level of testosterone was detected, but has not specified the actual criteria for the disqualification: https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/ 125.214.83.112 (talk) 23:59, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The IBA explicitly stated that she was not disqualified due to a testosterone test but rather a separate test 188.172.111.106 (talk) 11:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure how credible it is, but the Guardian article (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/boxers-who-failed-gender-tests-at-world-championships-cleared-to-compete-at-olympics) cited in the wikipedia entry points to a quote of Umar Kremlev (https://tass.ru/sport/17370249):

"Based on the results of DNA tests, we identified a number of athletes who tried to deceive their colleagues and pretended to be women. Based on the results of the tests, it was proven that they have XY chromosomes. Such athletes were excluded from the competition," Kremlev said. (Google translation)

The same accusation of Khelif having XY chromosomes appears in a Wired.com story which takes the view that Khelif should be allowed to compete. https://www.wired.com/story/imane-khelif-olympic-boxer-controversy/

Umar Kremlev is the International Boxing Association president. https://www.iba.sport/about-iba/organizational-structure/iba-president/ A.y.huang (talk) 22:09, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

It's credible insofar as Kremlev did say it (I went and tracked down the original TASS report, for some reason only available on the Russian-language version of their website and not the English). The question is whether Kremlev is correct about the chromosome thing; this remains a somewhat murky issue. AntiDionysius (talk) 22:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

It is possible he's wrong EnbyEditor (talk) 23:35, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Excuse me, but isn't she a biological man? One would assume that's what caused the elevated testosterone levels. It would be denying reality to think that it "could be caused by any number of medical, physiological, or pharmacological means". If she insists on being tested for those different causes, well, have at it. But the reason for her elevated testosterone levels is extremely likely the same as mine: being male. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.61.245.75 (talk) 13:36, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

No, it's not likely. Because higher T levels could be caused by any number of medical, physiological or pharmacological factors. Two seconds of googling for "elevated testosterone levels in cis women" will give you quite the list if you'd like it.

Even if it were "likely", we still wouldn't put it in the article unless it were verifiably true, which it is not. --AntiDionysius (talk) 13:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Polycystic Ovary Syndrome could very well be as plausible. Usually "transgender-identifying males: / "transgender women" would take an antiandrogen (testosterone reducer) to drop their testosterone levels as regular treatment.

I'd also like to shoehorn mention that intersex people exist (such as women that phenotypically look female while naked but have XY chromosomes without surgery. Even visa versa) 173.219.23.154 (talk) 05:13, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Does he/she have ovaries? 68.0.101.20 (talk) 13:16, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I really don't think any of us are in a position to know whether or not she has ovaries. It's also not super clear why that would be important. AntiDionysius (talk) 13:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

She is an intersex cis woman 74.71.162.63 (talk) 17:10, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors are not doctors, nor biologists, nor have first hand knowledge of this matter. There isn't clear information on Khelif's specific biological details, nor is it necessarily relevant, however....the point is, the IBA have stated that Khelif is XY chromosome, and we have good RS to support that. It's Wikipedia policy to accept RS. There is no contradictory other RS that states she *isn't* XY chromosome, so until there is information that contradicts the IBA statement, then we should accept that. Similarly, there is no evidence that the IBA would falsify the tests nor is their any motivating reason as to why they would do that. When both boxers were last tested, and found to be XY chromosome, instead of fighting it, they both accepted it, including Khelif. ON top of that, Khelif herself has not come out and refuted the IBAs statement that she is XY chromosome. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:31, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I would not count the IBA as a reliable source. It's become a bit of a rogue organisation. WikiEditor0227 (talk) 12:54, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any credible source for your claim? נוף כרמל (talk) 11:18, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no evidence to support this. WikiEditor0227 (talk) 12:55, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's the point: there isn't any actual evidence at the moment and most of the discussion above is pointless speculation. She was raised as a female and always recognised as such until in the 2023 World Championships she defeated a previously undefeated Russian boxer and was in the final against a boxer from (Russian ally) China! And the Russian controlled IBA disqualified her just before the final. 'Deathlibrarian' says 'there is no motivating reason why' the IBA would falsify the results - well there clearly is, and given the track record of Russian sporting bodies for falsifying test results then anything they say should be treated with caution anyway. The only information that we have about why she was disqualified is something from the very dubious head of the discredited IBA. There is no independent verification of their vague claims. Until there is something verifiable all the above talk is just - so much balls (sorry). OscarFred1952 (talk) 21:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

OscarFred1952 you need evidence to establish that the IBA has falsified the tests.There is no evidence, its just your opinion, so its not relevant. Also, there are witnesses independent of the IBA who have seen the IBA test results, so the test results conducted by the IBA are verifiable. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Deathlibrarian: exactly. JacktheBrown (talk) 05:35, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Question

It seems like the most key piece of information about this controversial athlete and it is missing from the article.61.68.79.145 (talk) 19:35, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Although the following sentence isn't encyclopedic, many people claim that Imane Khelif is a female transgender. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

you're right, that would be extremely unencyclopaedic AntiDionysius (talk) 23:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

"She" was found to have XY chromosomes, it's not an allegation, it's a fact that Khelif is biologically male. 188.172.111.106 (talk) 10:55, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

A Y chromosome don't necessarily mean that someone is 'biologically male': https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome Jamougha (talk) 11:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Plus there is every possibility that the IBA president was flat out lying. The way the article is now is fine. It includes relevant things that have been claimed but sticks to the verifiable facts when speaking in Wikivoice. AntiDionysius (talk) 11:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

@AntiDionysius I feel that if we do not have confirmation that the IBA president was speaking the truth his claim should be removed.

Or at least a note could be added that XY chromosomes doesn't necessarily mean that she's a man, because that claim is ruining her life at the moment. Karim Mezghiche (talk) 11:28, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Your claim here is preposterous. 2+2=5? Jordi2023 (talk) 06:02, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

What claim? AntiDionysius (talk) 08:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Regardless, such an opinion is WP:UNDUE in a WP:BLP article. I have restored the 17:49, 30 July 2024 version (no objection to going back to an earlier one if a further discussion and consensus is needed). M.Bitton (talk) 12:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

1) Kremlev's statement is a claim of fact, not an opinion.

2) It has been widely quoted in reliable sources: [1] [2] [3] [[4] [5] [6] [7]

3) It is important to the article because it is a statement from the president of the sporting organization in which Khelif competes, explaining why she was disqualified from the biggest match of her career thus far, which has also contributed in large part to her notability.

4) Space was given in the article not only to Kremlev's statement, but to Khelif's response.

This is not WP:UNDUE. I am undoing your revert. Please discuss further here. Astaire (talk) 12:39, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I thought the UNDUE issue was the reference to Barry McGuigan - and if that wasn't what M.Bitton meant, then I'd like to bring it up. AntiDionysius (talk) 12:41, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I fully understand what it is that you want to bring up. M.Bitton (talk) 12:45, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's a moot point after your revert - just that I thought the line "IOC's decision was the subject of controversy and criticism, including from former boxing world champion Barry McGuigan." was giving undue weight to McGuigan. AntiDionysius (talk) 12:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I see. Are you happy with the way that subsection is now? To be honest, I'm not convinced it needs a title. M.Bitton (talk) 12:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm also not convinced it needs a title. Other than that it looks basically fine to me. AntiDionysius (talk) 12:53, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Great. I have removed the title. M.Bitton (talk) 12:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you familiarize yourself with our content policies and especially, WP:BLP and WP:ONUS. M.Bitton (talk) 12:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Your only objection was that Kremlev's statement was an opinion (it's not an opinion) that was undue (I explained why it's due). If you wish to dispute its inclusion, please make a new argument basing itself on WP policy or on my response. Astaire (talk) 12:52, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Whether it's an opinion or a claim in a dispute over a set of facts doesn't really matter for the application of WP:UNDUE. AntiDionysius (talk) 12:54, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Every one of those "trusted sources" is quoting from an RT or TASS article. Are those trusted sources? I suggest you actually check where each of those articles sources their information. The president of the IBA never said Khelif's name. He said certain boxers had been disqualified due to have "XY Chromosomes" yet never specified who. The IBA never released an official statement on what tests were performed. To state that she has "XY Chromosomes" or that the president of the IBA said she does is blatantly wrong. 2601:201:8C02:9120:A57C:56CB:E4F0:E307 (talk) 14:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

There's no evidence that this was 'found'. The IBA has not released any details about its alleged tests, so they should be discounted. WikiEditor0227 (talk) 12:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Someone has gone and edited many of the pronouns of this boxer to the male pronoun, despite no evidence she is transgender (which is highly unlikely considering her extremely conservative country). This ought to be corrected. 2600:382:2B00:1C0:3CD3:A103:1781:6D8A (talk) 16:56, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

In Italy there are divisive newspaper articles: most of them claim that she's falsely accused of being a man, while others claim they're a female transgender (I use the singular they in case it's true). Has Imane Khelif changed sex? If yes, are there authoritative sources regarding Khelif's sex change? If there aren't, I doubt she's a female transgender. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I believe WP:BLPBALANCE comes into play here, doesn't it @JackkBrown? The principle is, if there is more than one well-reported perspective on a person, then those perspectives should be included, "so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone." If there are good reliable sources that set out a different perspective on this question then yes, a good article on a person will include those perspectives.MatthewDalhousie (talk) 01:55, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there's nothing to indicate she is male as such, or is transgender....BUT the IBA made a determination that she is XY chromosone, and she chose not to challenge that determination, and instead decided not to compete for the competition at that time. Despite the accusation, she has not personally confirmed it or denied it. ON balance, it would appear the sources indicate she is more likely to be XY chromosome, as there are sources that say she is XY and there aren't any sources denying this. That doesn't make her a man, but it may give her a physical advantage over a more "regularly chromosomed" woman. Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

@Deathlibrarian: your comment is PERFECT. Full support for this comment. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

See this source about the IBA. M.Bitton (talk) 19:44, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: the newspaper isn't free. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

This comment has some quotes from it. M.Bitton (talk) 19:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll add the quote here:

A person with knowledge of last year’s disqualifications from worlds but not authorized to speak publicly called Khelif and Lin’s banishments “classic IBA disinformation.” Three people familiar with the details of the women’s case pointed out that the disqualifications came three days after Khelif defeated Russian Azalia Amineva and a day after she won her semifinal bout in the 63-66-kg (139-145.5-pound) category.

M.Bitton (talk) 20:06, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

There's precisely one original source saying she has XY chromosomes - the IBA. Everyone else is just quoting them. The IBA also, in the same sentence said she is a "man" trying to "fool" people - so clearly we cannot take everything the IBA says at face value. And I think when Khelif said that this whole thing was a "conspiracy" against her, that pretty self-evidently counts as a denial. Unwillingness to go through the difficulty of taking a case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport doesn't weaken that; there are dozens of reasons she could've made that decision.

We have said that the IBA says she has XY chromosomes. We don't need to do anything more. We have to include the IBA's claim, because it is obviously noteworthy, but we also have to not treat that pretty clearly disputed claim as if it is fact or likely fact, especially under WP:BLP. We present what the relevant people say, and if/when we know anything for certain, we can update the article with that certainty. AntiDionysius (talk) 19:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Original IBA quote comes from this TASS report.

The quote translates more or less to "According to the results of DNA tests, we identified a number of athletes who tried to deceive their colleagues and pretended to be women. According to the results of the tests it was proved that they have XY-chromosomes. Such athletes were excluded from the competition". AntiDionysius (talk) 19:57, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Some of what is happening here in this discussion IMHO is editorialising/and drifting off into primary research/conjecture. We have multiple RS sources that states she is XY chromosome. We don't have any RS that states she isn't. Khelif herself hasn't stated that she isn't. There's no clear evidence that the IBA have falsified the tests (except for some anonymous claims reported in one source?), and both boxers accepted the results of the tests at the time. As editors, we need to accept the RS, that's our job. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Deathlibrarian: exactly. JacktheBrown (talk) 03:07, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

As I explained above, there aren't multiple reliable sources. There is one source, the IBA, and it is in dispute. I would say that fails the test to use Wikivoice on any article, but particularly WP:BLP. AntiDionysius (talk) 12:15, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLP: "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion...Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment" AntiDionysius (talk) 12:17, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources that state she is XY chromosome. A quote from the IBA President does not suffice to inject that claim into a BLP article. There would have to be a reliable source that reported on the test's information directly, not what someone said about the test. Scorch (talk | ctrb) 19:53, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

That WP policy on sourcing refers to the reporting source, not to the originating information. There are plenty of RS reporting this. The IBA has stated they conducted the tests, and they have stated the results, they aren't reporting on it, they are stating it directly. There is no RS that contradicts this, therefore it should stand until some other source says that for instance, she isn't XY chromosome. NO SOURCE has specifically said she isn't XY chromosome, and the IOC put out a media statement saying she was DSD..and then retracted it. Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:29, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Deathlibrarian: As at today, Monday 5 August 2024, there are only two sources with any evidence of the athlete's chromosomes - XX or XY. Two people who report they have seen an medical assessment, and they've both appeared in news reports in the last 48 hours.

One - is the specialist Olympic Games journalist Alan Abrahamson. His material is discussed below. But I don't think we have his testimony being discussed in a reliable source, with an actual supervising editor, at least at this point.

Two - is the European vice president of the World Boxing Organisation, Istvan Kovacs. His material also discussed below. He says he was aware of evidence that Khelif is XY back in 2022.

I don't think we're quite at the point where we have enough solid material from reliable sources, but I think it's just a matter of time.

MatthewDalhousie (talk) 08:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Three now - the Advertiser has also witnessed the test results, published yesterday and discuss it here: Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that in, @Deathlibrarian. I believe the key section is:

According to a document seen by this masthead, the IBA believes Khelif’s “hormonal imbalance affords her a distinct advantage over her female counterparts”.

The Adelaide Advertiser is certainly a reliable source, however, all it's claiming is that the IBA believes something. The journalist hasn't seen the medical report and isn't reporting on the medical report, or interpreting it. I think we're still in the shadows at this point.MatthewDalhousie (talk) 04:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, yes its an IBA report they have seen, not a medical report as such, fair enough. Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

More information is coming out, no question. What's been reported in Sky News is that:

• During competition in Turkey, Khelif gave a blood sample, which was collected for analysis on 17 May 2022.

• Analysis was provided by Sistem Tip Laboratory in Istanbul (License Number: 194-MRK), who issued its report on 24 May 2022.

• The conclusion of the results, according to the lab, "didn’t match the eligibility criteria for IBA women’s events."

• A letter from the IBA was sent to Khelif advising him of the same, and providing the lab results giving Khelif a copy, which has been published.

• Nearly a year later, in New Delhi, India, in March 2023, both Khelif and Lin agreed to another blood test, with the sample taken to Dr Lal PathLabs.

• That lab reported back six days later, confirming the findings were "identical" to the results from the sample taken in Turkey.

• Khelif (and Lin) were given a copy of the results.

What I would want to see before I could encourage any editor to make changes to the article in this regard, is a good reporter, in a really solid news organisation, who has actually seen these lab results from Sistem Tip Laboratory and from Dr Lal PathLabs, and for that reliable source to say something clear.

My view, @Deathlibrarian, is we need to see a report with that kind of material, and that level of quality. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 05:15, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, damn...that's more detail than I ever expected to see! I guess the other sources will pick up on it soon. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2024

Add UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls, Reem Alsalem, statements.

A possible addition could be: Reem Alsalem, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls, tweeted about the match, writing, “Angela Carini rightly followed her instincts and prioritized her physical safety, but she and other female athletes should not have been exposed to this physical and psychological violence based on their sex."

Some RS confirming the above:

-The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/01/angela-carini-abandons-fight-after-46-seconds-against-imane-khelif

-Evening Standard https://ca.news.yahoo.com/italian-boxer-quits-olympic-bout-113506942.html

2601:19E:427E:5BB0:9F16:23A8:BD16:E25 (talk) 14:14, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I would oppose this addition, personally. It's a comment by one person and it does not to me seem relevant. AntiDionysius (talk) 14:16, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Your personal opinion does not matter. You have been edit warring here making one-sided edits in what seems like direct editorializing from you, which goes against WP rules. When enough RS have reported on this, the article must reflect this in a NPOV.

2601:19E:427E:5BB0:9F16:23A8:BD16:E25 (talk) 14:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia operates by consensus. I am expressing a view on whether or not this should be included. Other editors are also welcome to express their views. Then we can go with the consensus.

I also categorically haven't been edit warring, but alright. AntiDionysius (talk) 14:22, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

If you were trying to enhance the article by consensus instead of destabilizing the article via editorializing, you could easily add, using the very relevant RS, and responde to the open edit-request. Something tells me you won't, the same way you deleted edit-warring notices on your personal Talk Page.

2601:19E:427E:5BB0:9F16:23A8:BD16:E25 (talk) 14:31, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Users have the right to remove notices from their talk pages, per Wikipedia policy. If you believe me to be edit warring, you are welcome to make a report at the edit warring noticeboard.

I am trying to work with consensus by not immediately making your suggested edit or immediately rejecting it. There is no obligation to positively respond to all edit requests just because they reference some reliable sources. It is common practice to respond that something should be discussed and consensus established before an edit request is approved or rejected. It's such common practice that we have a whole template: {{esp|c}} AntiDionysius (talk) 14:36, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

SUPPORT INCLUSION: I cannot agree with your observation that it is a comment "by one person". Does a UN special rapporteur represent the UN or not? This is an important addition to this person's article Billsmith60 (talk) 15:39, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Moreover, Reem Alsalem has a very well sourced WP article conveying her bonafides that warrant inclusion. This is not a random tweet or an opinion piece, she represents, since August 2021, all women and has a global UN mandate to "...seek and receive information on violence against women, recommend ways to eliminate violence against women at national, regional and intersectionality levels, and work collaboratively with the other United Nations human rights mechanisms."

All of this showcases this is important, relevant, non-contested, and verifiable. We need to include this to maintain NPOV. 2601:19E:427E:5BB0:147A:F431:89E6:80C2 (talk) 16:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Support Removal: It is not clear what is Reem Alsalem's connection to amateur boxing, or the athlete in question to comment on this issue. This is as non-sequitur and factually inaccurate as a statement as the athlete in question is not trans. 2600:6C44:767F:8E58:554E:854A:6C56:56C0 (talk) 16:37, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

@Billsmith60 UN Special Rapporteurs do not speak for the UN as a whole, no. AntiDionysius (talk) 16:41, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi, from Wikipedia (is it a reliable source): "Special rapporteur (or independent expert) is the title given to independent human rights experts whose expertise is called upon by the United Nations (UN) to report or advise on human rights from a thematic or country-specific perspective"? Are you saying this is incorrect? Please can you support your terse assertion that special rapporteurs do not speak for the UN? Billsmith60 (talk) 17:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures-human-rights-council/special-procedures-human-rights-council

Section "Special Procedures are individual experts". Flounder fillet (talk) 20:34, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

It's...in the text that you posted right there. They advise the UN. They are not spokespeople for the UN. AntiDionysius (talk) 20:36, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

should not have been exposed to this physical and psychological violence based on their sex what does that even mean? Does it mean that women shouldn't be involved in violent sports? Whatever it means, it certainly doesn't belong in this article as it is about Angela Carini. M.Bitton (talk) 20:37, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Remove the irrelevant opinion. 16:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

SUPPORT INCLUSION:I don't necessarily agree with the statement, but given the position of the author of the quote (A UN appointed person on violence against women and girls), it would seem to be an important inclusion and should be included under WP:BAL. I'd be uncomfortable deliberately excluding it. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/sports/olympics/olympics-dsd-rules-focus-womens-boxing-2024-07-31/ "Boxers Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting at last year's world championships in New Delhi fell foul of International Boxing Association (IBA) eligibility rules that prevent athletes with XY chromosomes from competing in women's events." Direct from Reuters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbbowlingmd (talk • contribs) 14:17, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Plenty of RS are covering this. Even the most respected ones like AP, BBC, and Reuters yet there is strong editorializing here by two users who are trying to prevent a NPOV from acurately what RS are reporting.

2601:19E:427E:5BB0:9F16:23A8:BD16:E25 (talk) 14:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

This is covered in the current text; it notes that the IBA say it was a chromosome issue and the IOC say it was a testosterone issue. AntiDionysius (talk) 14:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Another sports official has stated that tests showed Imane to be biologically male.

Note: at any point a single cheek swab could prove XX chromosomes and disgrace everyone claiming otherwise, this would be an insane lie to tell.

For now, the lines "There is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone. Khelif was born female and identifies as female." should be removed. "No evidence of" and "born female" are vague and misleading given that this is unfolding, not to mention the cited sources are simply quoting statements from representatives of the IOC. It is appalling to cite these as fact as opposed to in-line, given that the IOC is implicated in this controversy.

Here's the support from [9], : "'We have two boxers who were born as women, who have been raised as women, who have a passport as a woman, and who have competed for many years as women,' Bach said." This is "International Olympic Committee President Thomas Bach," per the article. ParanoidAltoid (talk) 19:01, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

User:ParanoidAltoid: I totally agree that the sentence "Khelif was born female and identifies as female" should be removed/changed. (The first sentence is already changed, but still bad, IMO). I think it should be replaced with "Khelif was registered as female at birth and identifies as female." This Guardian-article says "Khelif[], who were registered as women at birth and held passports as females".Huldra (talk) 23:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

There are plenty of RS (tons of them) stating that she was born female, so there is no excuse, none whatsoever, they shouldn't be given their due weight. M.Bitton (talk) 23:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Huldra's suggestion, enough RS's report that Imane was assigned female from birth, and point out that this must be the case since Algeria does not recognize transitioning.

But for "was born female", here's the currently cited source: ""People tried to disqualify Imane, for nothing, for no reason. She was born female. She will die a female," said Taha Oundrouis, a 41-year-old physician from Paris. 'If you cannot prove she’s a male, then you must shut up and leave her alone,' Oundrouis said."

Just as the IOC is not an RS, statements quoted in man-on-the-street reporting are not RS. Should we add "You must shut up and leave her alone." to the lede? This appears to be the stance of many Wiki admins, why not make it explicit?

This is contentious material about a living person. To find an article that quotes someone giving an opinion you like, inserting that opinion verbatim into a Wiki article, and hope no one notices or cares... Editors who do this should be banned, and admins who enable this should be stripped of their privileges. Seriously, this is horrible for Wikipedia's reputation and squanders the trust Wikipedia has earned over the years. ParanoidAltoid (talk) 23:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

See also Caster Semenya

Imane is dealing with many of the same issues and criticisms as Caster Semenya. I am not sure if it is the exact same condition, but those interested would benefit from a link to Caster and other DSD athletes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya 2001:19E8:F0:7601:8DF8:484D:137:78B3 (talk) 16:41, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Totally agreed. What an appropriate time to raise the issue. On the eve of a medal. Why wasn´t this an issue when she was defeated three years ago? Lf8u2 (talk) 02:25, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

We have no reliable sources that establish DSD here, not yet anyway. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 07:39, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Not only Caster Semenya, but Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui too. Those 3 females won gold, silver and bronze at the 800 metres for women, 2016 Olympics. They all have XY chromosomes.

They were all registered as females at birth, and were brought up as girls. When people are born inter-sex (or DSD), often the doctor/midwife/relatives cannot see wether the baby is a girl or a boy. In such cases they typically are registered as female, as the thinking is that it is easier being girl "tomboy", than is is growing up being a "girlie" boy. I know that has been the case "forever" in my country (in Europe), and in the US. Apparently it is the same in Africa, Huldra (talk) 21:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

WikiProject LGBT studies

Would this banner be appropriate to add given the whole controversy? Trade (talk) 08:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it is not. We have no confirmation that she is transgender, nor intersex. Zenomonoz (talk) 08:23, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I meant because of the controversy. I wasnt trying to imply that the controversy had any truth to it. The controversy takes up 1/3 of the article so we cant really claim it's insignificant Trade (talk) 08:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Please refrain from involving Imane in LGBT-related discussions, as she is from a country where being LGBT is criminalized. She has faced criticism in the past for dressing in a way deemed too masculine for a woman and has never officially stated that she is a lesbian or intersex; all she has confirmed is that she was born female. We cannot categorize her based on assumptions. sloth (talk) 09:38, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Did i claimed her to be lesbian or intersex? No Trade (talk) 10:52, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

There have been discussions before about the inclusion of wikiproject categories. AFAIR the general consensus has been if Wikiproject members feel that the article is within the scope of their wikiproject, it's not for outsiders to worry about. It's accepted that Wikiprojects tags which are simply internal management stuff, don't convey anything about the article subject so it's not a BLP or other violation. As I'm not a member of any wikiproject, I don't worry much about whether any wikiproject tag is added but if members of a wikiproject like the LGBT studies one want to add this article, I see no reason to oppose it. I can see obvious reasons why this article may be of interest to the LGBT studies Wikiproject. While our article doesn't currently mention this (although has in the past), people have been attacking her based on the false claims she is a trans woman, people well known for their opposition to trans rights. Such attacks may or may not have any long term significance, I'm not convinced they belong at this time; but in any case it's still part of the background as demonstrated by the fact currently we use a source which mentions such attacks in the title. Likewise if the inclusion criteria for women's boxing is affecting even cis women athletes, it's quite likely it will affect trans athletes. Still as I said, it's ultimately up to members of that wikiproject to decide if this article is sufficiently in scope. There are plenty of examples where someone is within scope of the LGBT studes wikiproject despite the subject not themselves being part of the umbrella. Gay icons are obvious examples, e.g. Judy Garland. Nil Einne (talk) 14:31, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. I would say Khelif qualifies for the WikiProject. Anyone saying that it doesn't qualify are presenting faulty arguments, with no merit. And the discussion on the WikiProject talk page leans toward inclusion of this article. Historyday01 (talk) 13:40, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Where and when did she confirmed that she was born female? May i see the source please? Kalaboomsky (talk) 11:13, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

There are many, such as this one. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The article you shared only quoted IOC President Thomas Bach. Kalaboomsky (talk) 00:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

It's a reliable source and Bach unambiguously states that they were born as a woman. Please don't continue this. TarnishedPath^talk 01:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. All the recent sources state this. Kalaboomsky is being disingenuous and continuing a line of discussion which is not productive. Historyday01 (talk) 13:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

While I'm extremely sympathetic to considering any risk a subject may face from what we do, let's be realistic here. There's a very low chance that someone in Algeria who is stupid enough to think the inclusion of the LGBT studies wikiproject means she is LGBT, will notice the wikiproject and harm her as a result. Especially considering we already have the J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk falsely claiming she is transedit: a man (when AFAIK we still don't even know if she even is DSD or has XY chromosomes and it's very unlikely they have better info than us which is that a very untrustworthy organisation made the claim in dubious circumstances)end edit and the Prime Minister of Italy also saying something similar. Along with what the IBA did. Nil Einne (talk) 14:52, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Nil Einne. I don't know about Musk, but J.K. Rowling has never (AFAIK) referred to Imane Khelif as "trans", Rowling refers to Khelif as "male" (as she refers to anyone who has (she believes) XY chromosomes). Huldra (talk) 22:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Huldra: It looks like you're right so I've modified my statement accordingly. Unfortunately I misunderstood an earlier version of the article [8] and was probably also influenced by the limited stuff I'd read on this. Since it concerns living persons, I really should have checked better before making the statement, although I don't think it matters much to the point. Nil Einne (talk) 23:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Alright i have asked the Wikiproject members whether or not they feel that the article is within the scope of their wikiproject Trade (talk) 03:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

 Courtesy link: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies § Imane Khelif. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 02:14, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• No, they have not publicly identified as being LGBT. While non-LGBT persons may have the WikiProject LGBT studies banner added because of their interest to the LGBT community (Kylie Minogue for example), I think we ought to act cautiously here given the country that they have to live in. Because of the potential real-world ramifications for their life I think we have to strongly consider BLP. TarnishedPath^talk 23:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

  I can respect a fear for potential real-world ramifications/common sense argument here, but IMO, any real world ramifications here will be from the article-text, which includes more than half the WP:LEAD, not from adding a Wikiproject template to a collapsed section on a page comparatively few readers [9][10] look at.

  IMO, if potential real-world ramifications is a worry here, the WP:LEAD is the bit to worry most about. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:18, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  If you don't think the world's media takes notice of our talk pages, you're mistaken. TarnishedPath^talk 10:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  They do, but not nearly as much as about what's in the articles. And on this particular issue, I've haven't seen any media coverage on the WP-angle at all. Also, I don't think I've ever seen a media comment on the use of Wikiproject banners on talkpages. Media has of course noticed wikiprojects. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  I would support adding more about the controversy using reliable sources, which would be summarized in a sentence or two (since many of the articles have similar information) in the sub-section "Second-round fight against Angela Carini". Here is my proposed text, which would follow the last sentence of the first paragraph:

  Online backlash included comments from individuals such as author J.K. Rowling, former President Donald Trump, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, U.S. Senator Rick Scott, First Lady of Florida Casey DeSantis, Turning Point USA founder Charlie Kirk, U.S. Senator JD Vance, and Donald Trump's 2024 presidential campaign national press secretary Karoline Leavitt and Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni, stating that Khelif shouldn't have been allowed to compete and falsely claiming she was a man fighting a woman. Others apologized for their role in spreading misinformation, including social media influencer Logan Paul and the Boston Globe, with the latter stating that their mistaken headline, which incorrectly claimed that Khelif was transgender, "regretful and unacceptable."

  In the final paragraph, following the final sentence of the the sub-section "Second-round fight against Angela Carini" also add:

  Previously, International Olympic Committee (IOC) spokesperson Mark Adams also stated that Khelif was “born female, was registered female, lived her life as a female, boxed as a female, has a female passport" and "this is not a transgender case." Others came to her Khelif's defense and celebrated her win, including Algeria’s minister of youth and sports Abderrahmane Hammad, soccer player Ismaël Bennacer and the National Black Justice Collective.

  I would argue that these articles, plus the existing text in the article, would undoubtedly support adding the LGBT studies WikiProject to this page. Historyday01 (talk) 13:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Update. I am withdrawing my proposed text from consideration. Please disregard this text.Historyday01 (talk) 17:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Donald Trump decides who is and isn't LGBT? M.Bitton (talk) 13:33, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  That question makes no sense and I find it inflammatory, so I'm not going to respond to a loaded question like that. He would ONLY be mentioned here due to the fact he spread false claims about Khelif. By not mentioning the online backlash and noting specific individuals, this article is missing an entire dimension of talk about Khelif. I'm not saying I agree with the backlash, but it happened. So, the present article minimizes it TOO much. Historyday01 (talk) 13:37, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Update: I no longer agree with this statement.--Historyday01 (talk) 17:33, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  That's exactly what you're suggesting: adding LGBT to an article based solely on what a ex-president and some celebrities' irrelevant opinions (which say more about them than her) about a subject that is well beyond their expertise. Would the opinion of a carpenter be relevant in an article about Quantum chemistry? M.Bitton (talk) 13:42, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not saying that the text I am proposing is perfect. It surely isn't. In fact, it could probably be cut down MORE. But, I believe it should be added to the article in some form. I care little about the opinions of "a ex-president and some celebrities". Rather, I am only trying to capture recent comments about Khelif and summarize them in such a way that readers could understand what is going on. That is all. You are being very disingenuous here, to say the least, and your comments continue to be unnecessarily inflammatory. Your comments are not helpful. I've already posted about my proposed text on the LGBT studies WikiProject. I guarantee they will have much more constructive comments than your comments. Even people on Reddit make better arguments than you do, which is saying a lot.Historyday01 (talk) 13:54, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Update: I no longer agree with this statement.--Historyday01 (talk) 17:33, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Your opinion of my arguments will be ignored as utterly and completely irrelevant.

  Tabloid like comments on a subject by unreliable sources (that's what they are given that it's well beyond their expertise) do not belong in any article, let alone a BLP.

   Note: the sole purpose of the above proposal is to justify the advertisement of the interest of a handful of editors at the expense of the reputation of a living person. M.Bitton (talk) 13:59, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Ok. The sources I cited in my proposed text are reliable. Your "informational note" is wholly inaccurate. To act like the LGBT studies WikiProject is some niche interest, as it seems you are doing, is denigrating and dishonest. If you have that much of an issue with the text, then write your own text and propose it here! Unless you do that, I reason that your arguments don't hold much weight at all. Historyday01 (talk) 14:15, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Update: I no longer agree with this statement.--Historyday01 (talk) 17:33, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  I've had it with your nonsense. Commenting on my argument is one thing, but accusing me of dishonesty is not something that I will tolerate. As far as I'm concerned, what you think of me says more about you than it doesn about me, so I suggest you comment on the subject and give the aspersions a rest. All wikiprojects are niche, that's a fact. M.Bitton (talk) 14:18, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  OK. I stand by what I said, as it seemed that way to me. It also seemed that your arguments were being disingenuous here. I see no point in continuing discussion about this topic with you, as it has clearly devolved to such a point that further discussion about this topic with you is seemingly impossible. Historyday01 (talk) 14:39, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Update: I no longer agree with this statement.--Historyday01 (talk) 17:33, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Persistently casting aspersions is not something that would give weight to your argument, if anything.... M.Bitton (talk) 14:42, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  After your recent threat toward me on the WikiProject LGBT studies talk page, please do not EVER contact me again. I never wish to engage in any discussion on any topic with you at ANY point in the future. Historyday01 (talk) 14:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Update: I no longer agree with this statement as it was unnecessarily harsh.--Historyday01 (talk) 17:33, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  I have never contacted you before and have no reason to ever do so, but if you ever redact my comment again, you will take a trip to ANI (that's a promise). M.Bitton (talk) 14:55, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Just one final comment on here (I know I said I didn't want to engage with you about any discussion, but I just want to make one quick point here). With some reflection here, I can admit that I could have conducted this discussion better and I will do better in the future with other users. I have also withdrawn my proposed text from consideration and striken most of my comments on here. As such, I think we can consider this matter PERMANENTLY closed.Historyday01 (talk) 17:33, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Adding more article-content is not really the subject of this thread, it's about the talkpage (I know, I mentioned article-text myself). Fwiw, I think the current content on this issue has WP:PROPORTION/WP:NOTNEWS ("while including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized") problems as it is, but now is probably not the time to deal with that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:29, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Ok. When would you suggest adding article-text then? Should we wait a week or so until more news come out? Or just let it pass? Historyday01 (talk) 14:37, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Waiting a week or 5 is fine with me, but I don't expect that to happen. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Ah ok. Thanks for replying. With the recent kerfuffle, I don't have any intention of adding this to the page, nor participating in any discussions about Khelif any time in the future. Historyday01 (talk) 15:29, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Actually, I've rethought this and I withdraw any objection to using the LGBT project banner. It's irrelevant if they are LGBT, this subject and the manufactured controversy surrounding it is of interest to the LGBT community. TarnishedPath^talk 12:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• In general it seems extremely obvious to me that people can be relevant to social issues or activist movements that they were not personally a member of, or active in, or even really aware of. For example, John Birch had no affiliation with the John Birch Society; Emmett Till had no affiliation with the American civil rights movement; Phan Thi Kim Phuc had no affiliation with American anti-war activism. Obviously they were relevant to these things: Birch was killed by Communists, Till was killed by racists, and Phan was maimed by napalm in an act of war -- but they were not actively affiliated with the respective movements. Nonetheless, I think it's pretty obvious to say that any group trying to write about the John Birch Society would consider John Birch in their purview -- even if, I mean, who knows what he would think about them? jp×g🗯️ 23:39, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Your source materials need to support the points you've made

@Slothtysloth, would you mind taking a look at the paragraph you've contributed that begins "During her performance..." First of all, boxers don't perform, they fight. But much more importantly, your sources don't back up much of what you've claimed. To begin, JK Rowling has criticised the IOC, according to the citation you've offered at least. Also, I don't think they've said anything about cisgender. Nor do they say jot about financial transparency. Please give it a good look or I think we remove the paragraph and start again. Hope that's okay with you. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 11:29, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I did not personally write the section referring to 'performance,' but the term is used correctly in this context, as it denotes the action or process of executing a task or function, it happened after she had won. If you have strong objections to the use of 'performance" please suggest an alternative term; however, I want to clarify that I did not author that particular section myself.

The text does indeed highlight criticism directed at the IOC for allowing Imane to compete, and the references clearly support this.

If you had thoroughly reviewed the references, you would have seen that it also addresses financial transparency issues. For instance, the article from NBC Chicago states: "The IOC is in charge of boxing in Paris because the IBA has been banned from the past two Olympics due to years of governance problems, a lack of financial transparency, and numerous perceived instances of corruption in judging and refereeing." a few other articles were removed for excessive sourcing.

Hope that answers your questions. sloth (talk) 11:43, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

@Slothtysloth thanks for replying.

Some thoughts and observations.

1. Apologies for assuming you wrote "perform." As mentioned, the right verb for this sport is, unsurprisingly, "fight."

2. There seem to be two main articles this paragraph depends on beginning with this one in Variety which

2.1 Makes no mention of "trans"

2.2 Make it clear that J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk are criticising the IOC

2.3 Does not suggest that these figures have strong views against transgender rights (and even if it did that would be relevant to articles about those figures, this is a BLP about a boxer, not various billionaires).

2.4 Say nothing about anything being "overlooked", if they have overlooked something, that would be from your original research, which isn't what we're doing here.

2.5 Says nothing about the IBA or bans

3. The second article the paragraph leans on is (and I wish I was joking here) The Hollywood Reporter

3.1 Says nothing about any individual's view of trans people, except to say "with many seeming to believe she is a man" which, seriously, ain't the same thing.

3.2 Make it clear that J.K. Rowling is criticising the IOC

3.3 Does suggest that J.K. Rowling is critical of the trans movement, but nothing about rights, and even if she was, again, that would belong in an article about JK Rowling

3.4 Say nothing about anything being "overlooked", if they have overlooked something, that would be from your original research, which isn't what we're doing here.

3.5 Says nothing about the IBA or bans

In short, unless you, or some other editor, can fix this paragraph up, I'm inclined to remove it. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 12:03, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Looks like all this problematic material mentioned above has now been removed. Matter resolved. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 08:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Why was I reverted?

In this edit. Courtesy ping to Abds97 who did not offer any explanation whatsoever. I get that their situations are different but see also links don't have to be directly comparable. I thought it was useful further context because it provides background about notable athletes who have been subjected to sex testing (which Khelif was even if there is no evidence that she has any specific intersex condition). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:29, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not the one who reverted your edit, but I have to agree with Abds97 because what you added is not in the same defining category as this topic. M.Bitton (talk) 23:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:SEE ALSO states that One purpose of "See also" links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics; however, articles linked should be related to the topic of the article or be in the same defining category.

I'd argue notable Olympic athletes that have been subjected to sex testing is related enough, even if their unique situations are very different. This article also says The minutes also say that the IBA should "establish a clear procedure on gender testing" so to me, I think it's incredibly relevant to provide background on the history of the IBA's IOC's procedures on gender testing (which this article provides extensive detail about the recent history of all that). It's not the end of the world if it's not included but I do think there's a decent reason to consider it. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Why not add all women boxers? The relation between the them is notable and undisputed. M.Bitton (talk) 23:45, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Because if you added all women boxers then that see also section would be crazy long and unreadable. A link to List of women boxers seems relevant enough to me. But I also think that Semenya should be included given that her case is directly relevant to the current procedures the IBA IOC has for sex testing and when women are considered to have an "unfair advantage" (which to me is unfair because plenty of men have advantages over other men. I bring this up as an example because if there is a comparable situation where a man had higher testosterone levels or something and that got extensive coverage, we should include that guy as a link as well). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:52, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

If anything, I could see Semenya's case being included as an example in the Sex verification in sports article, but I agree that it shouldn't be included here. Mellamelina (talk) 23:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

My point is that it's not just a random example of an athlete whose been subject to sex testing. Her case has direct implications to which athletes are allowed to compete in the Olympics. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:57, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I see what you're getting at, but ultimately this is an article about Imane Khelif, not about the implications of sex testing in sports. It might also lead some people to presume that Khelif is intersex like Semenya. Mellamelina (talk) 00:05, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

An annotated link like what I suggested below might be the solution to that. I didn't think of the implications that it'd leave readers to assume Khelif was intersex, honestly I was thinking about it from the opposite angle, that all this random controversy has to be about something else given the current rules. As I stated earlier, this article literally states The minutes also say that the IBA should "establish a clear procedure on gender testing" (even if that's a quote) and I think it's useful to provide background to readers that you know there is actually a procedure for all that. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:17, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, looks like I was wrong about the IBA angle because this appears to refer to the International Boxing Association. I'm not super into sports and made the incorrect assumption that it was some Olympics-related acronym. The article makes the distinction between the two organizations fairly clear so I'm not sure how I missed that and I'm sorry for providing inaccurate information above. I've struck those parts. Anyways, I've said my piece. As I've already stated, I think a link would be useful but it also would not be the end of the world if it is not included. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:42, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

For examples of what I mean, read Caster Semenya#2015 testosterone rule change and Caster Semenya#2018 testosterone rule change. I genuinely believe this is useful background for readers. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:04, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Again, I think background information like this would be more appropriate in the Sex verification in sports article. Mellamelina (talk) 00:09, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

+1 M.Bitton (talk) 00:10, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

That was a rhetorical question. Anyway, I added Lin Yu-ting, who happens to be mentioned in RS alongside Khelif. Please remember that this is a WP:BLP (i.e., it must be written conservatively). M.Bitton (talk) 00:06, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I know that this is a BLP. I have no issues with your link to Yu-ting and I took your question as literal, which is why I added a wikilink to List of women boxers. We obviously disagree on the merits of Semenya and I won't reinstate that link without a consensus, but I do genuinely believe it's a useful link that provides context to readers. It might be useful as a bulleted link under sex verification in sports with an annotated link that says something about the current practice of sex testing in the Olympics. As to inclusion in the sex verification article, it already is, although I think the information there could be more detailed. I don't think that means it can't be included as a see also link here as well. I look forward to what editors have to say on the matter because I don't think we're accomplishing much in this back and forth. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:13, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I also wanted to say this there is no rush to decide this right now. I'm okay with waiting until discussion surrounding the article subject is way less heated. I understand other people's concerns on why we might want to err on the side of caution. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:11, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

"Prominent anti-trans figures"

J.K. Rowling, Elon Musk, and Logan Paul are listed as "prominent anti-trans figures". That seems absurd, no? The contributing editor is interjecting their own descriptors of the trio instead of actually following the source, which lists them as prominent figures only. Unless there is another source that characterizes these three as prominent anti-trans figures, it should be removed.

StalkerFishy (talk) 20:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Mellamelina (talk) 20:52, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree, and I would also put into question why the article talks about "spreading misinformation". I think it is cleaner and more neutral for the article to either 1) cite the commentary of public figures (on both sides of the issue), and let the reader decide what arguments are more persuasive, or 2) remove these sentences and not even mention that someone spread misinformation. Why does it matter in a Wikipedia article if someone spreads misinformation about something? It is unnecessary clutter. I do think that if there are public figures that share their own opinions, those could be considered for inclusion. But let the opinions (of diverse perspectives) speak for themselves, and the article should not label that commentary as other than opinions.Al83tito (talk) 20:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd remove this sentence entirely:

"After the fight, prominent figures, including J.K. Rowling, Elon Musk, and Logan Paul, spread misinformation to allege that Khelif had not been assigned female at birth."

I think the sentence following that is neutral and sufficient enough to get the point across:

"Because of this, Khelif received online backlash from those who questioned her gender." Mellamelina (talk) 21:05, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree. besides, that sentence was restored after being removed. M.Bitton (talk) 23:11, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Rowling and Musk have both been embroiled in anti-trans drama repeatedly. Obviously it isn't what either of them are best known for, but they have both been very vocal about trans issues. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 23:51, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think they would refer to themselves as anti-trans figures, would they? nor would people who empathise with their views lable them as such. They may be percieved as such by people with a certain view. I would tend to agree, calling them "anti-trans figures" I think is not NPOV and editorialising. As wikipedians, we need to be neutral about these matters.Deathlibrarian (talk) 06:10, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk are considered anti-trans figures in dozens of reliable sources. I don't think Logan Paul has dozens of RSes referring to him as an anti-trans figure. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 20:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it's appropriate to clarify that Musk and Rowling are anti-trans advocates and that their statements on this are in the context of their anti-trans rhetoric. Rowling hasn't complained about other olympic issues, only this, and only because it's part of her narrative. Jikybebna (talk) 11:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Controversy and criticism

This information was reverted, with the following edit summary: "GLAAD is in no position to make claims about her based on "unconfirmed" hearsay. Take the rest to the talk page as it has been removed before". I think it is relevant and should be included.

According to a fact check from GLAAD, there have been unconfirmed reports that she has differences of sexual development, known as DSDs.

The IOC's decision was the subject of controversy and criticism, including from former boxing world champion Barry McGuigan and Australian boxing team captain Caitlin Parker.

-- Tobby72 (talk) 02:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:BLPGOSSIP, we should be very careful with repeating unsubstantiated rumors. The phrasing here seems to imply GLAAD is promoting the unconfirmed reports rather than dismissing them. The original source is strictly saying that the claims about Khelif are unverified and based solely on the IBA. The current lead seems to communicate this well.

Because Imane Khelif was disqualified from the 2023 International Boxing Association (IBA) championship due to an unspecified gender eligibility test, which has different eligibility criteria than the IOC, there have been unconfirmed reports that she may have a variation in her sex traits, also known as differences of sexual development (DSDs). [...] It is not verified that Imane Khelif has a variation in sex traits or DSDs.

Adding List of intersex Olympians etc. in the See also section was not appropriate. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 02:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@RoxySaunders:, thanks for your opinion. What about the second sentence? The IOC's decision was the subject of controversy and criticism, including from former boxing world champion Barry McGuigan and Australian boxing team captain Caitlin Parker. -- Tobby72 (talk) 08:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Based on what and what's that got to do with her? M.Bitton (talk) 09:35, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Based on Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:DUE: Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:10, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

You'll have to be more specific. What makes you think the comments by aging ex-boxers have been given enough coverage in reliable sources to merit inclusion? I don't see such coverage anywhere near the standard required for this article. JimKaatFan (talk) 11:12, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Request to Remove this sentence in the lead "There is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone."

"There is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone." - the current situation is that the IBA have stated they did a test and that she is XY chromosome. This would be evidence. Khelif herself has not denied this, nor challenged the findings.

This sentence is spin, and IMHO goes beyond reporting the facts as they are reported in RS.

The IBA may normally conduct tests and not supply evidence as part of its normal procedure. Adding a sentence like the above seem to be stating that the IBA test was made up and is without basis. IMHO - We don't know that, and we shouldn't be stating it in the article. I would ask wikipedians here to be NPOV and not add in their own theories. Deathlibrarian (talk) 06:19, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The IBA never specified what the test was that was undertaken. If we're going to accept medical statements then we need WP:MEDRS sources. TarnishedPath^talk 06:49, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I interpret WP:MEDRS to be referring to RS biomedical journals being needed to support controversial statements about biology. Not the results of a straightforward medical test. For example, if Trump's press secretary said that Melania Trump had a baby, and it was a boy, we wouldn't ask for proof from a science journal, would we? Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:18, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

If you hadn't noticed, this is a controversial topic at the moment. Given that the IBA hasn't even specified what the test was I think that we should require a higher level of sourcing than some vague claim from the IBA. TarnishedPath^talk 08:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

They won't give any details or let anyone else see said results, so I'd say quoting them uncritically is what would really be "spin". They want us to take their word for it, and have provided no proof to anyone else. Note that this so-called "test" came three days after Khelif broke a Russian boxer's undefeated streak, and the IBA is sponsored by the Russian government through Gazprom. That, and their chairman is the kind of person I wouldn't even trust to wash my car. - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 08:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

As has already been said, has the IBA ever before rigged gender tests? Is there any evidence that that did? If not, discussing unrelated issues about their practice and tying that to this gender test would appear to be WP:synth. Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The IBA is banned from the Olympics. They've been described as lacking transparency and having poor governance. Further US officials have described its boss as having deep ties to Russian organized crime and heroin trafficking. To be short they are severely lacking in creditability. TarnishedPath^talk 10:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

There's no evidence they even conducted any tests, at least on her. All we have is their word that she failed an unspecified "gender test" at an extremely convenient time. There's no published results, they won't even say what kind of "gender test", it's all just "trust us". - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 08:35, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

AP reported "Kremlev also has made additional allegations about the gender of both fighters without providing proof, and people across the world have accepted his word." and "The International Olympic Committee has decades of mostly bad history with the beleaguered governing body previously known for decades as AIBA, and it has exasperatedly begged non-boxing people to pay attention to the sole source of the allegations against Khelif and Lin." Le Loy (talk) 09:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

So if the IBA carried out sound medical tests, there's evidence, if they didn't and lied, there isn't. Do we trust IBA? Of course we don't. Do we have good reasons (preponderance of reliable sources) to conclude that they lied? No, we don't. RSes raise doubts but make no allegation and provude no evidence. So what we should do per NPOV is clear: to describe debates instead of taking sides; no wikivoice, every statement must be attributed. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest to have a "clean" lead and to keep the "POV stuff" (on every side of the argument) in the article body (e.g., IBA is Russian-led, ICO doesn't test for gender, etc.). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:49, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we give UNDUE weight to a banned governing body? M.Bitton (talk) 11:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Based on this article [11] by Adam Abrahamson, I don't think we should state with wikivoice that "There is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes". I think the existence of such evidence is disputed. And this source is also noteworthy [12], by Doriane Lambelet Coleman, who is another subject-matter expert. She literally says others sell their misleading or uninformed political wares (“There’s no evidence these fighters are not cis women!”). Also taking into account WP:RECENT and WP:BNS, we'd better be cautious and present undisputed facts as facts and controversial opinions as opinions. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:05, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

If you don't trust the IBA (and no one does) then there's no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes. Full stop.

I can't believe there's even a small debate about this sentence. It's completely accurate and it's completely necessary. If you don't think it's necessary, check the protection level conferred on this article. The very existence of editors wishing to give credence to horrible rumors and conspiracy theories is the very reason that this sentence should be in the article. JimKaatFan (talk) 15:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

What a wp:pointy comment! Editors saying things that you don't like is not a reason for publishing anything on this website. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

JimKaatFanThe fact you are writing like this is exactly what I am talking about. You are taking sides. As wikipedians, we are supposed to be neutral, and stick strickly to what the sources say. I SUPPORT Gitz comment on having a clean lead, and also that the evidence is disputed, but we can't categorically say "there is no evidence"... because we just don't know. We should move the POV material into the article where it can be read in context.At the moment, this is a WP:BIAS issue.Deathlibrarian (talk) 21:44, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The article is based on IBA claims and the IBA is severely lacking in creditability. You're not going to overcome that the sole origin of the XY claim is the IBA. TarnishedPath^talk 01:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath: remember that the truth is never just one, and even what the CIO claims may not be completely reliable (I'm not saying that the CIO isn't reliable (it's reliable), I'm saying that it's not correct to rely only on one type of source while ignoring all others; if we do, people are right to complain). JacktheBrown (talk) 04:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

There's just not one source reporting on the issues with the IBA. There are multiple sources. Given that they were suspended from the Olympics in 2019 and banned in 2023 for governance and transparency issues, we would have issues of WP:UNDUE if we covered what they claim as facts. TarnishedPath^talk 04:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

"There's just not one source reporting on the issues with the IBA"; are these sources American? The United States doesn't have good relations with Russia, so it's very unlikely that American sources are in favour of the IBA. JacktheBrown (talk) 22:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The sentence should not be removed but it should be rewritten as No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published., because the current sentence is a blanket assertion of non-existence, which is tantamount to saying the whole affair has been made up, which seems implausible given the various statements and actions of the involved parties. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 07:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree that it's implausible to think the whole affiar has been made up given the severe lack of creditiblity of the IBA. However, I do agree with you that we shouldn't be making blanket statements and as such support your suggested change. TarnishedPath^talk 08:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Barnards.tar.gz, your suggestion seems to have got lost, but let me affirm that this sentence you've proposed is sound: No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published.. The current situation is that there are no medical reports on this matter that have been published up to this point.

MatthewDalhousie (talk) 08:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I also have big problems with this sentence. The IOC didn't test for XY chromosomes, so of course they could say that there is "no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes"; they could have said exactly the same about every boxer in the male categories, too. The question is: did the IOC test for elevated levels of testosterone? Does anyone know? If so: link, please? Huldra (talk) 23:51, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Indeed.I don't think the IOC tested for anything - from what I understand, they base their criteria on the gender of what is on someone's passport, and largely ignored the previous IBA issues.Deathlibrarian (talk) 00:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

"I don't think the IOC tested for anything" is conjecture, but somewhat true: IOC hangs out management of doping control at the Olympics to the International Testing Agency. - Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 02:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Plus the situation is still ongoing, now: AP: IOC calls tests that sparked vitriol targeting boxers Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting impossibly flawed - Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 02:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

According to Deutsche Welle, "The IOC says that the boxing competition in Paris is being conducted under exactly the same rules as the ones in Rio and Tokyo, where the sex listed on an athlete's passport is the key criteria.", "Meanwhile, critics of Kelif's and Lin's participation in the female category have called for boxers to be sex tested, a practice that was stopped at the Olympics before the Sydney Games in 2000."[13] -- Tobby72 (talk) 05:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Can't be used in the article, but that is absolutely fascinating, and really helps me understand the current situation. Thank you. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 05:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree that it can't be used. Using it would be an invitation for readers to read between the lines (e.g. WP:SYNTH or WP:OR). TarnishedPath^talk 06:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

They don't.

They rely on the federation when it comes to eligibility. E.g. in imane's case the Algerian federation would need to confirm whether or not she is a woman. It is 3.1 from the PBU guideline (BBC link I am too lazy to paste) 216.128.23.32 (talk) 18:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Poll

I suggest a poll. Please vote Keep/Remove the above sentence:

• Remove -Huldra (talk) 22:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• Remove. JacktheBrown (talk) 22:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

 Note: The above sentence no longer exists in the article (it has been amended). M.Bitton (talk) 22:29, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

 Note: To anyone wanting to vote, please do not vote here, vote at Talk:Imane Khelif#RfC_lead Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:24, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Please review WP:RFC. Polls aren't usable, RFC (which is a poll, just in the correct format) is. Also, please review WP:CONSENSUS. Decisions on wikipedia are made based on the reasoning, not the election counts. If you do the RFC, you need to also include your reasoning or the person who reviews it will not count your vote. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 22:28, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The sentence "No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published" is unnecessary/misleading, IMO, I would like to see it gone. Of course we can/should add our reasoning, but to me it seems as if the majority of editors who have voiced their opinion on this page, has a problem with that sentence? If I have to make a formal WP:RFC request, I will. But is that really necessary? Huldra (talk) 22:39, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It's statement of facts, so what makes it misleading? On the other hand, the poll that you started is definitely misleading and wouldn't achieve anything as a result. M.Bitton (talk) 22:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Huldra, in this respect, @M.Bitton is right, the sentence is a statement of fact which, in my view favours no particular argument, and is absolutely pertinent to anyone who wants to understand the subject before us. There are plenty of other parts to this article that can be improved. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 22:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It is a competely meaningless sentence. We could write "No medical evidence that Mike Tyson/User:Huldra/whoever has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published", and that would be a statement of fact, too. (At least for me, and I assume for Mike Tyson, too). We don't write WP:THESKYISBLUE, Huldra (talk) 22:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The yardstick for "the sky is blue" rule is something as undisputed as the blueness of the sky. This clearly isn't that undisputed; that's kind of the point. AntiDionysius (talk) 22:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Apples and oranges. M.Bitton (talk) 23:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The "statement of fact" argument is not convincing. Also "There is no evidence that Khelif has XX chromosomes" would be a true statement of fact, but the implications would be opposite. Note that the cited source WaPo supplements the contested sentence with the info about IOC not testing athlets for gender. What about having in the lead "since IOC doesn't test for gender, there is no evidence that she has XY chromosomes"? I don't think it's ideal, but still better than the proposed text, because it is closer to the source and less suggestive/POV/misleading. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:54, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

'Statement of fact' argument is not convincing, as saying 'no evidence that Khelif has XX chromosomes' could misleadengly imply the opposite, so noting IOC doesn't test athlets for gender is more accurate and the sugested phrasing about XY chromosomes better aligns with the source. BanishedRuler (talk) 02:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I haven't done a proper tally but my impression isn't that of a clear majority one way or the other. This is the point of the RfC process, I think. AntiDionysius (talk) 22:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• Tally can only be done by an editor who is WP:UNINVOLVED if WP:RFC is opened. It's not like RfC applies either rn, as this isn't an RfC.
• The current poll cannot be used to justify anything is my point, and can neither support the inclusion or removal of the sentence. The discussion above is probably more impactful than polling rn, in that you're more likely to change the article by editting above.
• Even if Huldra had opened an RfC correctly, (which they still can if they want to), you still need to provide reasoning for your vote. A single "remove" or "keep" without reasoning in an RfC is usually discarded.

Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:18, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

they also need to specify which sentence they are referring to (as simply stating "the above" is misleading). M.Bitton (talk) 23:21, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Hamori

@JackkBrown: regarding this edit:

what makes you that it belongs in this article? If you believe that it says something about Khelif, then you're welcome to explain what that something is and seek consensus for the material. M.Bitton (talk) 11:10, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: in my opinion the statement should be included, since it implicitly refers to Khelif. JacktheBrown (talk) 21:20, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

She is not transgender and does not identify as intersex

This information was reverted, with the following edit summary: "I think I've seen enough WP:POINTY edits on this topic. Take it to talk, and please stop using vague misleading edit summaries."

She is not transgender and does not identify as intersex.

Kremlev said the tests were carried out by medical professionals "at the request of female athletes" and after "the women's coaches complained a lot".

The IOC said the key criterion is the gender listed on the athlete's passport.

I will respect the consensus, but please explain why this content should not be included? Per WP:DUE: Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. -- Tobby72 (talk) 12:32, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Why should she be identified in terms of what she's not when we have RS identifying her in terms of who she is (a female)? The IOC said many things (mentioned in the article).

 Context you have previously added "Intersex" to the see also section (which was rightly reverted). M.Bitton (talk) 12:40, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

We report what reliable sources say. The media initially reported that Khelif is likely an intersex woman, based on tests that are now disputed. Still don't understand why the other text was deleted.-- Tobby72 (talk) 13:04, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

You haven't answered my question (read the article and check the cited sources). As for what we do, it really depends on one's understanding of what Wikipedia is and how its rules (including the stringent BLP ones) apply. M.Bitton (talk) 13:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with M.Bitton. Furthermore, this dead horse has been beaten enough. Even the source (NBC Sports) that Tobby cited for that unnecessary sentence doesn't say exactly what Tobby added - they've very slightly twisted it into a similar sentence to support their own WP:POINTY edits. If Tobby wastes any more editors' time with this nonsense, I'd recommend someone else (I'd do it but I've already reverted Tobby's edits so maybe I'm too close to it) raises the issue with an admin and perhaps request that Tobby be barred from gender-related articles, broadly construed. We've done this before to minimize disruption and I can see that sanction being useful here. JimKaatFan (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

So instead of explaining your reasons and arguments for deleting the sourced text (including Kremlev's interview), all we got from you are threats and intimidation. Please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I was just trying to discuss the reasons why the text was removed, or how it could be reworded.

NBC Sports says: "Both boxers have always competed in women's divisions and there's no indication that they identify as transgender or intersex". The consensus is against it. I get it. What about the rest?-- Tobby72 (talk) 17:39, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:DEADHORSE. Thank you for your time. Kindly back away from the horse. JimKaatFan (talk) 19:57, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

This is not a dead horse. Sky News and Deutsche Welle are good sources and these contents should be included in the article body alongside others on the opposite side of the argument to have a balanced and informative article. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Coverage elsewhere

People who are interested in this article may also be interested in the content over at Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics#Women's boxing controversy. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

2 sentences in the lead:

I have a problem with 2 sentences in the lead:

First: "On 3 August 2024, she clinched at least a bronze medal in Paris after reaching the women's 66 kg semifinals"

Well, there are 4 people fighting in the semifinals, for gold, silver, bronze, and 4th place. So she could theoretically get the 4th place? Therefore I cannot see that "she clinched at least a bronze medal"? (yeah, I know RS writes that, but I cannot see how they can be right?)

Second: There is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone. But the source says "The IOC, which is overseeing the boxing competition in Paris, does not test for gender." So of course they cannot say if Khelif has XY chromosomes. And I have been trying to find out whether she has been tested for elevated levels of testosterone by the IOC, but that seems to be..not transparent. (If any source says so, I would be grateful if they gave a link). Also, the source says IBA said the women did not “undergo a testosterone examination” but “a separate and recognized test.” The statement added that the test and results are “confidential.”

My point is: if you don't test for XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone, you can always say that "There is no evidence that [...] has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone." Huldra (talk) 22:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Boxing is unique in that it awards two bronze medals, one for each of the losing semifinalists, i.e. there is no bronze medal fight. See here and here. (I had no prior knowledge of boxing before this, so I had the same thought as you.) Mellamelina (talk) 23:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, ok. Thanks, I had no idea, either! That leaves only the other sentence, then, Huldra (talk) 23:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

That is just so interesting. Honestly. Learning more from the talk page than the actual article! MatthewDalhousie (talk) 00:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

For 2, I don't see a reason to start another discussion about this. Please offer your feedback at #Request to Remove this sentence in the lead "There is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone.". Nil Einne (talk) 23:35, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, User:Nil Einne; I missed that, Huldra (talk) 23:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The interview statement of István Kovács and reliable sources

I've made several comments above, in a couple of the topic sections, arguing that we simply don't have any good information, certainly up to 3 August 2024, about the chromosomes or biological status of Imane Khelif.

I need to be open to new information changing my mind as, I suppose, we all should.

This article from the Telegraph published 19 hours ago, represents new information, as it reports on statements by European Vice President of the World Boxing Organization, István Kovács, who has said:

"The problem was not with the level of Khelif’s testosterone, because that can be adjusted nowadays, but with the result of the gender test, which clearly revealed that the Algerian boxer is biologically male."

If you read the article, you can see that, in his role, Kovács has known there is an issue regarding the athlete's biological sex as far back as 2022. I recognise that the athlete is regarded as female by family and according to passport. To my mind, we now also have a hard statement, I believe the only one so far, indicating that some experts or people with a degree of authority in the sport, have a clear view of the athlete's biological status.

Certainly don't think it should change the article much. Only that there are reports from credible sources that the Athlete has been assessed as biologically male by some sports authorities.

The article in the Telegraph draws on an interview reported by the Hungarian language newspaper Magyar Nemzet. In one way, this is a primary source. We would need to decide if we're satisfied that the article constitutes a reliable source before proceeding. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 01:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so that's a big deal, and needs to be included. But we need a better source than the telegraph Deathlibrarian (talk) 01:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

We also need to establish whether Kovács is a genuine authority here. Was he close enough to the testing process? Does he have a legitimate authority in the sport? MatthewDalhousie (talk) 02:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The supposed testing was undertaken by the IBA. The IBA was suspended from the Olympics in 2019 and banned in 2023. They have been criticised for a lack of transparency and governance. Their boss has been described as having deep ties to Russian organised crime and heroin trafficking. They are completely lacking in creditability. I don't think there's anything more to say here. TarnishedPath^talk 02:28, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Their boss has been described as having deep ties to Russian organised crime and heroin trafficking. Please mind WP:BLPTALK. You're mistaking Umar Kremlev for Gafur Rakhimov, who has been accused of drug trafficking but never charged with anything. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It seems to be very doubtful. The issue here is that the supposed "gender tests" show something, and that some functionaries take them as a gospel, but IOC and others doubt their veracity and that they exist in any way. I wouldn't use this in any way yet unless there's some more specific information that doesn't parrot IBA. Also it's Telegraph, which is not a solid RS on these topics. Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 02:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Any news article parroting the IBA is not reliable (the source as a whole might be reliable, but the article wouldn't be) given the issues with the IBA. TarnishedPath^talk 02:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

To be fair to Mr Kovács, in this 2024 interview, he is speaking as European Vice President of the World Boxing Organization. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 02:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Sleeps-Darkly I can see there has been long discussion about The Daily Telegraph and its reliability, but am not seeing any firm conclusions by the editing community. It certainly isn't included amongst WP:DEPSOURCES. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 02:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It is irrelevant who he is speaking as. He's merely parroting the IBA claim. As discussed above the IBA is lacking in creditability. We should therefore treat any parroting of their claims in the same manner, regardless of where they come from. TarnishedPath^talk 03:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

it's probably prudent to note (for this discussion, not the article), that István Kovács is a president of World Boxing Organization; while the Olympic boxing is set to be handled by World Boxing, different sports organization, established in 2023. Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 05:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Quite right; understood.MatthewDalhousie (talk) 05:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

OK I've actually found the more specific thing: In March 2021, Kovács was appointed as a secretary general of AIBA under its new president, Umar Kremlev, then left it in 2022. Seems to be an important context here. Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 08:13, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Right. And, at least according to this BBC report the name of the organisation used to be known as AIBA, since 1946, and then, at some point, it became known as the IBA, which was recognised as boxing's governing body by the IOC in 2019. This happened because of "governance issues and alleged corruption." MatthewDalhousie (talk) 08:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The fact that Kovacs was in the IBA and left could mean he didn't like their standards and left in disgust for all we know, thereby making him more credible. That simple fact doesn't really mean anything here.Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Alan Abrahamson article

This is an interesting article appears to go into more detail, and Abrahamson states he witnessed the test results details. He also says the test results were sent to the IOC in 2023. According to him, Khelif and Lin came up as XY chromosome, and the IBA board voted to disqualify them on that basis. However, *unfortunately* its just written on his own blog, so it doesn't have good RS. If we had good RS, this would be good to include. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Deathlibrarian: I completely agree with you. JacktheBrown (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't be good to include even if it was covered by a source which is WP:GREL. He's merely taking IBAs word for it that they conducted such a test and as discussed above IBA is lacking in creditability. TarnishedPath^talk 03:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, my view, it is important, because it's pointing to an actual document. Would be good to see the document published and a good secondary source explaining what the document is saying. Honestly don't think we could use 3wiresports.com as a news source. I can see that the author is an accredited journalist, but we would need to see the full suite of benchmarks before we call it a reliable source (for one thing 3wire doesn't have a supervising editor or fact-checker, nor do I see any editorial policies, such as issuing clarifications when mistakes are made). If the document exists, it won't be long before a more serious publication gets hold of it and makes an assessment and report. I think we should wait. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 03:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

A document which had its genesis with the IBA. Regardless of who comments on it the source of the claim is still the IBA. TarnishedPath^talk 03:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath: yes, but to obtain a complete article it's correct to be neutral and, therefore, also include sources related to the IBA; otherwise, only one point of view is told, and this is profoundly wrong. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:22, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Being neutral does not mean presenting all sides as if they have equal footing. Per WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:UNDUE that would be a WP:NPOV violation when one of the sides being presented is lacking in creditability. TarnishedPath^talk 01:00, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath: are the sources claiming that the IBA is unreliable American? The United States doesn't have good relations with Russia, so it's very unlikely that American sources are in favour of the IBA. JacktheBrown (talk) 06:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Your implied suggestion that American journalists are unreliable on the subject because of relations between governments is ridiculous. TarnishedPath^talk 06:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

In context that the "test results were sent to the IOC in 2023", IOC also calls them out https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-imane-khelif-lin-yuting-boxing-13e9529195585404c7b03c96f97dd634 - as "impossibly flawed". Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 03:19, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Another good reason to wait. I'd want to see who did the testing, if they had qualifications, etc. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 03:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

In context of the article, "The IBA said in a statement that Lin did not appeal the IBA disqualification to the Swiss-based Court of Arbitration for Sport, “thus rendering the decision legally binding.”", however we have this article, which contradicts this statement: https://focustaiwan.tw/sports/202408030014

> `According to Lin's coach, Tseng Tzu-chiang (曾自強), they appealed the decision, but the IBA rejected the appeal. However, in its statements on July 31 and Aug. 1, the IBA claimed that the decision was "legally binding" as Lin "did not appeal" it.`

Plus https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/news/5912516 also confirms that she did additional testing at Hangzhou. Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 03:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Not following the Lin matter at all closely. But why didn't the coach appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport for Sport in Lausanne? Do we know? MatthewDalhousie (talk) 03:28, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

There's just some personal speculation, but anyway: IBA decision did not matter to IOC, plus IOC is forcing boxing world to change to any other international association (one of other three) before 2028 Olympics, or there will be no boxing in 2028. So there's just no point in appealing, especially if the IBA is viewed as corrupt. - Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 03:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I heard the comments of the Aussie olympic boxer Jeff Fenech on the boxing admin bodies. "Shady" was a good summary.MatthewDalhousie (talk) 03:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The article states the tests were done at a lab, and that the tests went to the IOC. But the IOC are claiming they don't know anything about the tests. As has been said, the author appears to be a legit sports journalist, who reports via his own publication. IOC and IBA clearly hate each other! so god knows. In terms of the appeals, "Lin Yu-ting did not appeal the IBA's decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), thus rendering the decision legally binding. "Imane Khelif initially appealed the decision to CAS but withdrew the appeal during the process, also making the IBA decision legally binding." - IMHO the fact that both these sportspeople didn't appeal the tests indicating they are XY chromosome, probably indicates they are. If they weren't XY chromosome, it would simply be a matter of getting another test to prove they were XX and show it to the Court of Arbitration for Sport Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Yep, Abrahamson is legit. He's won several awards for his sports journalism. Would be good if he produced the actual test results. But in terms of standards of this platform, we would have to see that from a proper news journal, who have fact checkers and editorial oversight. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 09:41, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Sleeps-Darkly noted that Lin, after the IBA test, had an additional test in Taiwan. *However* that doesn't appear to be a chromosome test. The article refers to it as "conducted a thorough examination of Lin during her stay in Hangzhou", which confirmed her as a woman, which seems like a physical examination. Also, by her own national sporting body... who would hardly be impartial.Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The IBA lacks credibility so your arguments are meaningless. TarnishedPath^talk 10:33, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath: to obtain a complete article it's correct to be neutral and, therefore, also include sources related to the IBA; otherwise, only one point of view is told, and this is profoundly wrong. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you please check the WP:BALANCE and WP:WEIGHT too? Including the WP:FALSEBALANCE? At this moment it's still the sole word of IBA, which is believed to be discredited by a lot of sources, against others. Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 01:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @TarnishedPath, I have understood your point. However, if it's actual medical reports being quoted by a reliable source, then that can't be so easily dismissed. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 10:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

What the WP:GREL source (noting that generally reliable doesn't mean always reliable) reports that the IBA showed them. Yes it can be easily dismissed. It's fruit of a poison tree. TarnishedPath^talk 11:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

As has been pointed out by MatthewDalhousie the author is an authority in the area of sport, an award winning journalist, and has made statements about the tests. He said he has witnessed the results of the test, and that they were given to the IOC. User TarnishedPath seems to be indicating the IBA has faked the tests(?), but there is entirely no evidence of that, so that is no grounds for not including information. In terms of WP BAL, I think the information from this article should be included. If not, we are not presenting both sides of story. Wikipedia is a neutral source, and needs to remain that way, even in cases like this. Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

They didn't witness the test. They witnessed what the IBA presented to them. They witnessed the fruit of a poisoned tree.

The IBA is banned from the Olympics. They've been described as lacking transparency and having poor governance. Further US officials have described its boss as having deep ties to Russian organized crime and heroin trafficking. To be short they are severely lacking in creditability.

Presenting information from the IBA as if it is fact is not balancing the story per WP:FALSEBALANCE. It is completely WP:UNDUE to present extraordinary claims, for which no evidence has been presented, as if it has equal footing with credible stories. TarnishedPath^talk 14:29, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath: the United States doesn't have good relations with Russia; so, personally, I don't believe 100 per cent in what U.S. politicians say about Russia's political issues. It's my thought, I don't want to be attacked. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:40, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

All good Jack. I understand the situation between Russia and the US. However given the information presented by reliable sources concerning the IBA, it would be incorrect for us to present any material from them or which has genesis with information from them as being "another side to the story". TarnishedPath^talk 00:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath: so for this article we rely on only one type of source? It's logical that the final result isn't the best. JacktheBrown (talk) 01:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

No, we rely on many secondary sources that say that a specific primary source (IBA) is unreliable. M.Bitton (talk) 01:15, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

> MHO the fact that both these sportspeople didn't appeal the tests indicating they are XY chromosome, probably indicates they are.

I'm going to stop you here and ask you against speculating on this, because I've already quoted this upthread:

> `According to Lin's coach, Tseng Tzu-chiang (曾自強), they appealed the decision, but the IBA rejected the appeal. However, in its statements on July 31 and Aug. 1, the IBA claimed that the decision was "legally binding" as Lin "did not appeal" it.`, which shows a contradiction. -

Please stop speculating on this and trying to bludgeon your point into the article. Thanks. Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 20:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

"the fact that both these sportspeople didn't appeal the tests indicating they are XY chromosome, probably indicates they are" - that is 1. Not at all how WP:BLP works, and 2. a massive assumption. There are so many reasons you could choose not to take a court case like that. AntiDionysius (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree with you here @AntiDionysius. It may be that the evidence exists - particularly if there's a medical report - but it certainly hasn't been published yet. Until that happens, we are all speculating. But if that does happen, if it's in a couple of reliable sources and the evidence is scientific, then I think the article should be updated. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 22:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Just a note to @TarnishedPath. I can see you're working hard to ensure that, whatever evidence may be presented by journalists in the future, you have settled in your mind to dismiss such reports, because a test may have been commissioned by the IBA which (certainly after last night's absurd press briefing) is clearly a chaotic organisation. However, to keep pairing the commissioning organisation with the reports by scientists is, I believe, to poison the well. I ask that we take the evidence for what it is, when it comes, so long as it is delivered by a reliable source. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 22:33, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Apologies to Sleeps-Darkly and AntiDionysius Apologies all, my statement "the fact that both these sportspeople didn't appeal the tests indicating they are XY chromosome" My statement, was indeed an assumption, as I was just stating it as my personal opinion, I didn't mean it to be included in the article as there is obviously no evidence or basis for it, but I can see its caused confusion. Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Very decent of you @Deathlibrarian. Have an excellent day. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 23:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@MatthewDalhousie, I don't need to poison the well. The well poisoned itself. TarnishedPath^talk 00:53, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Decided to re-read the content guideline on Reliable Sources, and WP:REPUTABLE is the the lodestar here.

We use reputable sources for accuracy, because the teams of people who work at Reuters and The Times are the experts on the subject matter, not us, and because they have the fact-checkers and the supervising editors.

This is, in some ways, a relief for wiki editors. It's simply not our job to decide if a document or a medical report is accurate or not. It's not up to me, or anyone else here, to interpret a primary document, like a medical report. We entrust that to the reporters backed up by editors and fact-checkers, and we go off the secondary source.

But @TarnishedPath if there's another element of Wiki guidance you think we should consider here, please share for further discussion. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 02:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

There is an abundance of RS which contradicts the IBA or says that it as a primary source is unreliable. Therefor it is proper to rely on those sources and per WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:UNDUE we should not present material from the IBA or which had its genesis with the IBA as if it has equal footing with other sources. To do so would be a WP:NPOV violation. TarnishedPath^talk 02:59, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

TarnishedPath, if there is an abundance of RS that contradicts the IBA which says Khelif is XY chromosome, can you name one RS source that specifically says Khelif is XX chromosome? Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

This repeats over and over that she was born a female and continues to be a female. I suggest you don't follow up on your ridiculous request that sources by provided which specifically state that Khelif has XX chromosomes. TarnishedPath^talk 08:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't say she is XX, it says she was born female, which a lot of articles do. You were the one who said "There is an abundance of RS which contradicts the IBA", that is they said she is XY chromosome....so when I ask you to name one, you can't. I'll ask you again, you state there is an abundance, then where are they? Can you link to even *one* article that says she is XX? Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

It states that she was born female over and over. That contradicts the IBA claim. Now stop your ridiculous line of questioning. TarnishedPath^talk 10:36, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

The IBA claim that she is XY chromosome. And despite your claim there is an abundance of articles that contradict the IBA, you can't link to one article that contradicts that, by saying she is XX chromosome. Ok, If you are going to make random comments you can't back up when asked to, I'm not wasting any more time on this. Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Female

@M.Bitton please can you explain your revert reason: “that has never been disputed”, in response to removing the wikivoice statement that the subject is female. How has this never been disputed? Is the dispute about this not the reason for the current wave of coverage? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:21, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

You removed "was born female". That's a sourced statement (easily attributable to more RS if needs be). Do you have a RS that says that's not the case? M.Bitton (talk) 17:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The source says that various people make that claim. We have other sources making the claim that the subject is not female, or that it is complicated or ambiguous. It’s disputed. The dispute is the reason we are talking about it. I am not proposing adding a statement that the subject is male. I am proposing removing the assertion of something that we don’t currently know. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question:

You removed was born female. That's a sourced statement (easily attributable to more RS if needs be). Do you have a RS that says that's not the case? M.Bitton (talk) 17:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, here for example: [14]. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Where does it say that she wasn't born female? M.Bitton (talk) 17:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It says …chromosomes that made them ineligible to compete in the women’s category. and this source[15] says “…male XY chromosomes were found…”. This is not enough to state in wikivoice that the subject is male, but it is enough to avoid making an unqualified assertion about something that is disputed. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

In other words, you don't have a reliable source that contradicts the sourced statement (which is easily attributable to more RS). Please remember that this is a [WP:BLP]]. M.Bitton (talk) 17:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The existence of sources stating not-X are not the only reason to remove the statement X; it is also what we do when sources show that the matter is ambiguous, disputed, uncertain or controversial, especially in a BLP. The two sources I gave make it quite clear that this is a disputed matter and that medical evidence one way or the other is not in the public domain. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

You do not get to contradict the reliably sourced statement with your WP:OR. M.Bitton (talk) 19:13, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not OR when sources say that the matter is controversial and that key details are unknown. Here’s one: [16]. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:19, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Again, you have failed to provide reliable sources that contradict the sourced statement (that is easily attributable to countless RS). M.Bitton (talk) 19:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Refer the first sentence of the sex assignment article: Sex assignment (also known as gender assignment) is the discernment of an infant's sex, typically made at birth based on an examination of the baby's external genitalia by a healthcare provider such as a midwife, nurse, or physician. Not based on her chromosomal makeup. Regardless of whether or not she has XY chromosomes (which neither of your sources state in their own voices, by the way, only in attribution to the suspect IBA), she was born female. I don't really like the phrase "assigned female at birth" phrase in this context, but would that be a reasonable substitution? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Born female is what most RS say, therefore, I see no reason to change it. M.Bitton (talk) 18:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Assigned is supported by numerous RS, and has the advantage of being undisputed. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Born is supported by more sources and has the advantage of being undisputed by RS. M.Bitton (talk) 19:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Assigned female at birth is better, and can be sourced [17] and is compatible with all statements made by the involved parties. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

"Born female" is much better and has way more supporting RS. There is no valid reason not to give it its proper weight. M.Bitton (talk) 19:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreee that "Assigned female at birth" is better (source eg Guardian:[18]). Just out of interest: Would you say Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui were "Born female", or "assigned female at birth"? Huldra (talk) 23:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

"better" is a personal opinion that has no basis in policy. Per WP:WEIGHT, the statement that has more support in RS (i.e., born female) takes precedence. The other athletes are not being discussed here. M.Bitton (talk) 23:19, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

"more correct" would be better. I am not of the opinion that RS trumphs correctness, Huldra (talk) 23:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

RS and the policies (WP:WEIGHT and WP:BALANCE) trump your opinion of what is "more correct". M.Bitton (talk) 00:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

IBA Press Conference 8/5/24

The IBA held a press conference today about their gender testing of Imane Khelif and Lin Yu Ting.

• The Washington Post
• Time Magazine
• The Independent
• The Telegraph
• Sky Sports
• BBC Sport

Mellamelina (talk) 19:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Umar Kremlev calling Thomas Bach a sodomite says everything there is to know about the IBA. M.Bitton (talk) 19:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, they are without a shred of creditability. TarnishedPath^talk 03:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: both Americans and Russians very often speak badly of each other; to give an example, Putin has been portrayed for over two years by the American left as a mad and unhealthy person, a murderer, a fascist, and so on; after all this hatred from the American left towards Putin, complaining about an insult from a Russian makes no sense. Having said that, I'm neutral and don't take sides. JacktheBrown (talk) 06:38, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

This is absolutely irrelevant here, and we do not need any kind of soapboxing here -- it's an easy way to get sanctioned. Thanks. - Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 08:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Sleeps-Darkly: to be fair and consistent, "Umar Kremlev calling Thomas Bach a sodomite says everything there is to know about the IBA" is also absolutely irrelevant here. JacktheBrown (talk) 09:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that's really true - the credibility of the IBA is something of a central question to this whole thing. And I agree with @M.Bitton that Kremlev's comment delegitimises him; it's not that he just "insulted" Bach, it was that he chose to make an accusation of "sodomy" as if that is an insult. Combined with Kremlev's original comment that Khelif was a "man" trying to "fool" people into thinking she's a woman, it gives us an impression of the POV from which he's operating. AntiDionysius (talk) 09:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

That surely is a mess. Previously they stated that the tests weren't about testosterone, now in this conference Kremlev claims “They have very high level of testosterone”. At least we can note that the sources presented here directly call the conference "chaotic" and "bizarre", so we can note this in the article. Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 20:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

BBC: "The IBA said the tests were sent to two different laboratories that are accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada). However, Wada has told BBC Sport it does not oversee gender tests and its work only relates to anti-doping matters." Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for these sources, I have went through them and added them into the article. I've skipped the part with Boualam Roumaysa heckling the conference which ended on that, because I believe it's somewhat unimportant for the topic (it's mentioned in WaPo article), but this can be still added if desired. Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 01:47, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Sentence

In my opinion the following statement should be included, since it implicitly refers to Khelif:
Before their quarterfinal fight, Hámori wrote on social media, "In my humble opinion, I don't think it's fair that this contestant can compete in the women's category. But I cannot concern myself with that now. I cannot change it, it's life. I can promise you one thing... I will do my best to win and I will fight as long as I can!". JacktheBrown (talk) 20:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Why are you creating another section when #Hamori is already there? Anyway, I will repeat the same question here:

What makes you that it belongs in this article? If you believe that it says something about Khelif, then you're welcome to explain what that something is. M.Bitton (talk) 20:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: you: "... and seek consensus for the material ...". There's only you and me in that discussion... JacktheBrown (talk) 20:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Is that a reason for you to create multiple sections for the same thing? Don't you think that the talk page is already a mess as it is? M.Bitton (talk) 20:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: the solution is very simple: delete the previous discussion. JacktheBrown (talk) 21:03, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

You deliberately created a duplicate, so you take responsibility for your actions. The section that I created (long before this one) stays. M.Bitton (talk) 21:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: all right. JacktheBrown (talk) 21:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Just a general statement here, I have no issue with the inclusion of competing boxer's comments on the issue, may be a brief section with comments from both sides, keeping with WP:BAL.Female boxers Skye Nicolson, Tina Rahimi and Marissa Williamson Pohlman have made comments.Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

No, self-published claims from others on social media don't belong here. TarnishedPath^talk 03:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

References

RfC lead

This RfC concerns the two last sentences in the lead: "No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published.[8] Khelif was born female and identifies as female.[9]"

Should those two sentences be changed to: "Khelif was assigned female at birth and identifies as female". Huldra (talk) 23:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Support changing the phrasing as the original statement about no medical evidence being published could misleadengly imply the existence of unpublished evidences, and the new wording offers a clearer and neutral description of Khelif's gendre. BanishedRuler (talk) 02:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• I have argued the latter, as I think the sentence "No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published" is meaningless/misleading/controversial, while the sentence ""Khelif was assigned female at birth and identifies as female" is objectively correct. I haven't read all written about this in the last week (who has??), but my impression is that RS ([19] [20]) more and more are using the phrase "assigned female at birth" instead of "born female".

Comments? Huldra (talk) 23:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Strong and full support for the following sentence: "I have argued the latter, as I think the sentence "No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published" is meaningless/misleading/controversial, while the sentence ""Khelif was assigned female at birth and identifies as female" is objectively correct." JacktheBrown (talk) 23:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose changing the second sentence.

• Given what Mellamelina said below, I wouldn't object to the sentence about "testosterone and medical evidence" being reworded (as I can see how it can be misconstrued as suggesting that the evidence exists).
• "Khelif was born female and identifies as female" is supported and easily attributed to a raft of RS (way more than the proposed "assigned"), therefore, per our policies (WP:WEIGHT and WP:BALANCE), 'born female' takes precedence. M.Bitton (talk) 23:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you share your analysis that confirms “born” is used by way more sources than “assigned”? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 07:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Barnards.tar.gz: I completely agree with you; M.Bitton, without concrete proof what you wrote is very doubtful. JacktheBrown (talk) 07:53, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not interested in convincing you (I know where you both stand on this). The editors (especially the admin who will close this) are more than capable of doing the simple Google search. If they have any doubt about the more common and neutral term "born", they can ask me. M.Bitton (talk) 10:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Mostly oppose. This isn't my area of expertise, but the only time I've ever heard "assigned X at birth" was in the context of a person who eventually transitioned. I know they mean the same thing, but I think "was born X" is the more common and neutral way of wording it, especially in the context of a cisgender person.

On the other hand, I don't love the chromosome sentence because, to me, it reads like the evidence exists, but it just hasn't been published. Again, I know that isn't necessarily the case, but it's my knee jerk reaction to the sentence. Mellamelina (talk) 00:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Mellamelina: "I don't love the chromosome sentence because, to me, it reads like the evidence exists, but it just hasn't been published." Exactly, also in my opinion. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

If that's the reason, then that's a different story. My understanding is that it was changed from this sentence to the current one for other reasons. M.Bitton (talk) 00:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@JackkBrown, the sentence previously read that "no evidence exists" which I think either M.Bitton or Barnads.tar.gz proposed changing to the current wording because it was a blanket statement about all of existence that we're not really in a place to make. TarnishedPath^talk 07:59, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose (at present), the RFC proposer makes a claim that the sentence "No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published" is meaningless/misleading/controversial. They have failed to provide reasoning or evidence for their statement and why the sentence is not a plain statement of fact. I think if we're going to make some change we'd need a better worded RFC (note: I have separated the RFC proposers arguments from their question for neutrality). TarnishedPath^talk 01:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Strong support the "No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published" is awkward, and implies the tests have been conducted, are valid... but just haven't been published. Also, as the tests were apparently done, and have been witnessed, why is the fact it just hasn't been *published* so important it needs to be mentioned in the lede? In any case, I'm in favour of removing it from the lede and leaving any of that discussion in the main mody. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment Whoever closes this RfC, please also review the discussion from the original talk space that started all this. [21] When I said the RfC was a replacement for polling, I mostly meant it as sort of a technical advice (I don't think it should entirely replace the discussion, or that the discussion has no merit.). I'm still certain the discussion is happening in that talk section concurrently with this RfC and should be considered as part of whatever outcome happens. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose removal of the first sentence: I have heard both that No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published constitutes WP:THESKYISBLUE and that it's "controversial", both as arguments for its removal. It can't be both, and clearly it is worth clearing up. It's also true and sourceable to the many articles about the IBA press conference that were published yesterday, which focused quite closely on the lack of evidence published by anyone. I do hear the concerns about the wording implying that there exists evidence just that that evidence hasn't been published. It doesn't read like that to me, but if it does to others, that's a wording problem, not an argument for removing the sentence; in fact, if we're concerned that some readers make think evidence is out there, that's a stronger argument for keeping the sentence. (Alternative wording may be a separate question, but an idea that springs to mind is "No medical evidence...has been presented", maybe) --AntiDionysius (talk) 08:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Edited the above to note that I'm strongly opposing the removal of the sentence about "no medical evidence...has been published". As for "was born female" versus "assigned female at birth" - I don't really have a strong view. --AntiDionysius (talk) 08:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

    I'm not sure I understand the meaning of medical evidence (not) being "published". How does medical evidence get published? I've never seen a medical test published on a news source - it would make for the most boring and iincomprehensible reading. Usually they report the findings: "they were tested and the result was ...". But we can't say that no RS has ever reported that Khelif was tested and the result was ...". So why should we chose this suggestive but obscure terminology? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• The “no medical evidence” sentence is important because it directly addresses claims that are in circulation. At the heart of this subject is a set of claims and the fact that the medical evidence for those claims is not in the public domain and therefore we don’t know if they (or their counter-claims) are true. No sources have presented a reliable case for what the sex of the subject is: the IBA have refused to publish their test results (they say they can’t), the claimed test result does not definitively determine sex (XY females exist), and a bunch of sources have made equally-unevidenced counterclaims, and despite highlighting the shortcomings of the IBA (links to Russia, possible corruption, really bad at press conferences), none of these things prove a counter-narrative involving the IBA somehow making it all up. We are dealing with uncertainty here. Especially because this is a BLP, it is inappropriate to publish speculation from both sides and our article should prefer to omit contested information rather than pick a side, even if a lot of sources have taken sides. We are talking about medical claims about a living person. None of the sources in play are WP:MEDRS. Our language must be cautious and neutral. “Assigned” is an improvement on “born” because it’s standard terminology that is compatible with a range of possible scenarios (chiefly, taking no side on whether the assignment was correct), whereas “born” is tantamount to directly stating what the sex is (a medical, factual statement), rather than what it was assigned to be (a momentary judgement, fallible). Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 08:13, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  the fact that the medical evidence for those claims is not in the public domain the so-called medical evidence is not a fact, it's a claim by an unreliable primary source (the IBA). M.Bitton (talk) 10:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  The IBA may be all kinds of bad, and an insufficient source for repeating its claims in wikivoice, but it strains credulity to argue that the badness extends to conspiring to fabricate evidence. As far as I know, no RS has made a case for such a conspiracy existing. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:00, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  Are you sure it's just a claim by an unreliable source? Also Alan Abrahamson, who is an independent professional sport journalist, reported that they've seen the tests. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:13, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  That's what the secondary sources are saying about the shady IBA (a primary source). Alan Abrahamson is also a primary source whose claim a) doesn't count as far as BLP is concerned (where multiple high quality RS for such claims are necessary), and b) even if taken as face value, would prove that the IBA doesn't protect the athletes' privacy. M.Bitton (talk) 14:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  It is an unreliable source.

  It's obvious from the context : after she beat the Russian favourite in the Russian IBA championship competition who was previously undefeated they disqualified Imane Kelif saying she failed some unspecified biological gender test they performed.

  This "coincidentally" meant that the russian boxer could go back to being officially "undefeated".

  Boxing record of the "undefeated" boxer she beat:

  https://boxrec.com/en/box-am/1083362

  Her having an XY chromosome seems to have stemmed from an interview from the BBC with the IBA chief exec where he said "XY chromosomes were found" but there were "different strands in that" and he couldn't commit to them being "biologically male".

  https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

  Whether or not she does actually have XY chromosomes is an objective fact like some people are insisting. 194.154.197.119 (talk) 14:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. If we keep the controversial sentence about chromosomes, we should at least supplement it with "The IOC does not test for gender", as per quoted source WaPo. But having in the lead all this information, which is more or less suggestive and hard to interpret, is not ideal. "Khelif was assigned female at birth and identifies as female" is preferable. First, the original sentence, there never has been evidence that either Khelif or Lin had male chromosomes, taken from WoPo, is probably false. The IBA performed two sex verification tests on Khelif and its chair Umar Kremlev told the Russian news agency Tass "it was proven they have XY chromosomes". We don't believe the Russian-led IBA? Fine, but there's also an experienced and reputable journalist, Alan Abrahamson, who writes "3 Wire Sports has seen the letter and the tests" [22]. So it is at the very least possible (although unknown) that Khelif has differences of sex development (DSD), as explained by subject-matter expert Doriane Lambelet Coleman in Quilette. We must strictly abide by WP:BLP, WP:RECENT and WP:NOTNEWS, which means that we shouldn't be suggesting that Khelif does or doesn't have XY chromosomes: we just don't know anything for sure about chromosomes. Therefore as to her gender, we write what we do know: she was assigned female at birth and identifies as a woman. We don't speculate about her genetics and the lack of information about chromosomes, please, we don't make this BLP a trench in the ongoing confrontation between Russia and the West, between IBA and ICO, we don't make her the exemplar of cisgender women because we just don't know. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:36, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
• We tend to use "assigned" in case where the decision is, for some reason, viewed as either arbitrary (for an intersex person) or incorrect (for a trans person). I'd prefer "identified as female at birth" in a case like this. (It's much like the difference between "claimed" and "said".) Despite what outside commentators have said, as far as I can tell no one who has had access to her has claimed that she's anything but female -- not whoever did her birth certificate, nor the IBA which referred to her as "female" after whatever testing they did, nor the Olympics, nor the individual herself. But I fully understand if folks want to go with something more standard. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 12:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  I agree. I've been having a hard time conveying this, but you worded it well. When I see "assigned female at birth", I don't associate it with a cisgender person. And to the average reader, "assigned" could carry the implication of an arbitrary decision, as if there were multiple options to be considered. I know it means the same thing as "born female", but I think a lot of readers would be unfamiliar with the phrasing. Mellamelina (talk) 13:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  I agree. "Identified as female" would be better. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose I know I suggested AFAB above, but that was only to see if my personal misgivings about the phrase were unjustified. Turns out they were justified, as seen by both sides of this RfC so far. To be clear, my misgivings were and are that the association of AFAB with people transitioning is a bad connotation for this article, which deals exclusively with a cisgender woman (which is true regardless of the number of X or Y chromosomes she has). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose and comment. I oppose this particular change, and entirely disagree with the assessment that the first sentences is meaningless/misleading/controversial, but I do think that the word "published" is a little bit odd there (feels like a weird way to refer to personal medical records) and would suggest adjusting the sentence to something like No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been released instead (minus the emphasis). "Presented" is another option per AntiDionysius. To those arguing that the evidence has been supplied, I just want to emphasize that even if the IBA were reliable, they still haven't even said what test they did (a "chromosome test" is not a thing. They may have meant karyotyping, but that isn't the only way to look at chromosomes and they also claimed the test looked at both chromosomes and testosterone, which is not a thing.) CambrianCrab (talk) 17:08, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose the lead is fine currently. Per AntiDionysius above, the fact that editors have argued against its inclusion from completely different sides of the argument means it's worth stating, just to avoid confusion. There's been so much disinformation circulating on social media about this that the lead should include a clear, sourced statement. Which it currently does. The proposed change is nonsensical. JimKaatFan (talk) 06:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)