Jump to content

Talk:Stanisław Jerzy Lec: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Tatzref (talk | contribs)
363 edits
Tatzref (talk | contribs)
363 edits
Line 146: Line 146:


[[User:Tatzref|Tatzref]] ([[User talk:Tatzref|talk]]) 14:38, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
[[User:Tatzref|Tatzref]] ([[User talk:Tatzref|talk]]) 14:38, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

::I note that Galassi not only did not explain his reverts -- alleging academic sources to be "tendentious nonRS" -- but he also removed from his talk page my requests for him to do so as "cleanup":
::13:40, 6 May 2019‎ Galassi talk contribs‎ 226,741 bytes -7,881‎ cleanup undothank
::13:03, 6 May 2019‎ Tatzref talk contribs‎ 234,622 bytes +793‎ →‎Reverts in Articles on History of Jews in Poland and Stanislaw Jerzy Lec undo
::03:55, 22 April 2019‎ Tatzref talk contribs‎ 233,829 bytes +431‎ Revert in Article on History of Jews in Poland undo
[[User:Tatzref|Tatzref]] ([[User talk:Tatzref|talk]]) 14:47, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:47, 10 May 2019

Controversial claims of anti-POlish activities by IP sockpuppets

The following passages with clear anti-Semitic POV were added by an several IPs from India. They contain claims of various anti-Polish activities by one of Poland's greatest writers, and as such fall under WP:REDFLAG, besides WP:UNDUE and WP:COATRACK:— Preceding unsigned comment added by Galassi (talk • contribs) 18:18, September 16, 2012‎

Lec's anti-Polish pasquinade in Czerwony Sztandar of September 1940, a Polish-language Soviet propaganda newspaper in Soviet-occupied Lvov

Lec did not participate in the Polish Defensive War, but instead spent the years 1939–1941 in Lvov, a Polish city in the Eastern Borderlands which was occupied by the Soviet Union after the latter country's attack on Poland on 17 September 1939.[1] Here, on 19 November 1939 Lec signed a resolution calling for the incorporation of Polish Eastern Borderlands into the territory of the Soviet Union (an act illegal under international law).[2] He also collaborated with the occupying power's Polish-language propaganda newspaper Czerwony Sztandar ("Red Banner"), and other Soviet propagandist publications, producing versified and virulent communist pasquinades against Polish officials of the Second Polish Republic, like that pictured to the right (his name is in the lower right corner). While the last pasquinade in the example illustrated to the right is directed (in part) against government officials of the Second Polish Republic — who will now have to exchange their "cabinets" for the "cabinet of the investigative judge", that is to say, face the law under the new Soviet-communist dispensation — Polish literature is referred to in it as a "herd of pen-pushers" (sfora pismaków) who will now have their leaders arrested. The rest of the lampoons are likewise directed against the Polish society in general. The first lampoon illustrated by the cartoon of a fat man representing the ordinary Polish citizen throwing away banknotes concerns the inflation which the Polish zloty was subject to in wartime, Lec deriding here those possessing money as having now to preoccupy themselves exclusively with "multiple zeros" (i.e., with the decimating effect on the value of currency by the galloping inflation), while the second cartoon portraying a small shopkeeper running away from his shuttered grocery, suitcase underarm, has the following poem by Lec underneath:

Cóż umykasz z tą walizką?
 W tem nie widzę żadnej racji —
 Jeśliś był nacjonalistą
 Czekaj nacjonalizacji!
Why with a suitcase thus flee?
I can’t see the causation —
If nationalist thou be
Await nationalization!

— the implication being that any allegiance to the Polish State would not be tolerated and would result in expropriation. Under international law, Polish lands occupied by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during the Second World War continued to belong to Poland, a country whose Penal Code in force at the time — the so-called "Makarewicz Code" (see Kodeks Makarewicza) — considered collaborationism in time of war a criminal offence punishable by up to life's imprisonment (Art. 100, § 1), while actions aimed at dispossession of the State of part of its territory were a capital offence (Art. 93, § 1).[3] War crimes of collaborationism as defined by the Makarewicz Code continue to be recognized as such under current laws of Poland.[4] While Lec was by no means the only Polish writer to have collaborated with the aggressors during the War, he is considered by the historian Jerzy Robert Nowak to have been among those who showed the greatest enthusiasm (do... najgorliwszych) in their collaborationist activities.[5] One of the most senior and respected Polish writers and philosophers of our day, Bohdan Urbankowski, credits Lec with the authorship of the first "poem" to glorify Stalin ever written in the Polish language.[6] The 4-stanza, 24-line poem, in which Stalin is likened to "a pitcher full of milk tenderly served by loving mothers to their children", is not without a certain formal literary merit, for which it continues to be cited in specialist literature as much as for its moral turpitude.[7] The Czech thinker, Tomáš Sedláček, warns in his latest book against unquestioning acceptance of linear developments in history by quoting Lec's dictum (perhaps conceived with reference to himself):

We know we are on the wrong track, but we are compensating for this shortcoming by accelerating.[8]

Lec has been defended by Adam Michnik who wrote in his 2007 book that Lec has been unfairly branded by critical opinion as a "Soviet collaborator" on the basis of "the weakest, least successful, or most frankly conformist pieces", much as Konstanty Ildefons Gałczyński is unfairly remembered for his antisemitic views "he briefly held".[9]

The text quoted above is not openly anti-Semitic, but the accusatory tone of the text, and formulating it as a prosecutor attorney's speech in a court is typical for the right wing extremists to discredit people somehow related to communist movement, being often of Jewish descent. The single facts quoted in the text may be correct, but the general spirit of the text is such that it brands all life of people that had had any communist activity at their record as criminals deserving only to be prosecuted and executed, regardless of their later development in life and merits for the society. The concept of "former communist" is not recognized by those people, "only a dead communist is a good communist, and it does not matter if he changed his mind at any time or not".

--Jidu Boite (talk) 09:13, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Jacek Trznadel, Kolaboranci: Tadeusz Boy-Żeleński i grupa komunistycznych pisarzy we Lwowie, 1939–1941, Komorów, Fundacja Pomocy Antyk/Wydawnictwo Antyk Marcin Dybowski, 1998, pp. 280ff. ISBN 8387809012.
  2. ^ Jacek Trznadel, Kolaboranci: Tadeusz Boy-Żeleński i grupa komunistycznych pisarzy we Lwowie, 1939–1941, Komorów, Fundacja Pomocy Antyk/Wydawnictwo Antyk Marcin Dybowski, 1998, p. 81. ISBN 8387809012.
  3. ^ Download the code online.
  4. ^ See the article on "Collaborationism" on Polish Wikipedia.
  5. ^ Jerzy Robert Nowak, Przemilczane zbrodnie: Żydzi i Polacy na Kresach w latach 1939–1941, Warsaw, Wydawnictwo Von Borowiecky, 1999, p. 175. ISBN 8387689157.
  6. ^ Bohdan Urbankowski, "Zadeptywacze" (Those Who Trod Culture Underfoot). Urbankowski explains: "Sowiecki "Piemont" we Lwowie był poletkiem doświadczalnym. Ci, którzy zdali egzamin z kolaboracji, zostali zarządcami w PRL" (The Soviet "Piedmont" [here: staging area; Piedmont=ad pedem montium] in Lvov was a training field. Those who passed the exam in collaborationism were promoted to the governing class in the Communist Poland.) (See Urbankowski's personal blog online.)
  7. ^ Pisarze polsko-żydowscy XX wieku: przybliżenia, ed. M. Dąbrowski & A. Molisak, Warsaw, Dom Wydawniczy Elipsa, 2006, p. 282. ISBN 8371517505.
  8. ^ Tomáš Sedláček, Economics of Good and Evil: The Quest for Economic Meaning from Gilgamesh to Wall Street, New York and Oxford, Oxford University Press, 2011, p. 233. ISBN 9780199767205, ISBN 0199767203.
  9. ^ Adam Michnik, In Search of Lost Meaning: The New Eastern Europe, ed. I. Grudzińska Gross, tr. R. S. Czarny, Berkeley (California), University of California Press, 2011, p. 142. ISBN 9780520269231. (Originally published as W poszukiwaniu utraconego sensu, 2007.)

Reply

The material stands as presented, despite User:Galassi objections, because those objections do not explain how or why the passage quoted is antisemitic, or reflective of a hidden agenda, or partisan, or biased in any way. The burden of proof lies here with Galassi, not with those he accuses. The words "Jewish" or "Semitic" are not in any way cited in the passage quoted, directly or indirectly, no overt or covert reference is made to the author’s ethnic origin, and no attempt is made to link the subject’s activities in wartime Lvov to his ethnic background, family history, national allegiance, or in any way to implicate his ethnicity as being either causative or corollary to his wartime activities, and finally no editorial comment or value judgments are added to well-documented facts. Academic sources cited are mainstream, reliable, and recognized in other Wikipedia articles on Lec in other languages, and in (printed) literature on the subject in general. User:Galassi likewise does not explain why the passage is "controversial": controversiality (in the sense valid on Wikipedia) could only consist in the presence of published sources that dispute the facts adduced in Lec’s biography, or present an alternative narrative of the events — not in User:Galassi vacuous protestations and harangues. Galassi does not cite such sources, or any valid reasons on which he bases his own claims (while the claims he impugns are well sourced and attested in the text). Instead, User:Galassi claims that because Lec is one of the greatest writers, he must therefore be also blameless (or whitewashed), which is a non sequitur.

All that User:Galassi does to bolster his position is sloganeering: this he does to cast aspersions on editors and their contributions (in multiple violation of Wikipedia’s code of conduct: such as the rule against personal attacks, but other rules as well), in order to railroad his own agenda to blatantly falsify a Wikipedia article for reasons best known to himself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.225.193.142 (talk • contribs) 18:18, September 16, 2012‎

WP:FRINGE.--Galassi (talk) 15:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Escape from the camp

I cannot find references for the sensational claim that "he received a death sentence for his second attempt to escape, but managed to successfully escape in 1943 again after killing his guard with a shovel when taken to dig his own grave". This story is not present on pl wiki, nor can I find any sources for it in Polish, neither. The sources just say he escaped in German uniform. This story was added by User:Galassi in 2011: [1]. If no refs are presented for it, I'll be forced to remove it as a hoax in the near future. Sadly, it's already been given a second life on the web: [2] --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:32, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently he killed his executioner with a shovel: http://www.livelib.ru/author/116562 . --Galassi (talk) 22:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Galassi: How reliable is the livelib site? Can you discuss this source some more? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:26, 6 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are LOTS of russophone refs apropos - http://www.quotat.info/stanislav-ezhi-lec/ . All of them mention killing the executioner-sentry with a shovel and taking his uniform to escape. The poem (fraska?) inspired by that is titled "He who had dug his own grave".

From the cycle "To Abel and Cain":
He who had dug his own grave
looks attentively
at the gravedigger's work,
but not pedantically:
for this one
digs a grave
not for himself. --Galassi (talk) 06:39, 6 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind Russian or Ukrainian refs, but we should discuss them in the proper RS context - author, publisher, etc. So far I am still not convinced livelib is reliable, and a poem is not a very reliable source; Lec could have changed the story to suit his verse. I'll ping User:Volunteer Marek, User:Poeticbent and User:Nihil novi for a 3O, but given the current sources I am inclined to remove this claim from the article. It is particularly puzzling this claim doesn't seem to be verifiable using any Polish refs; I think it may be a case of a Russian language hoax or misinterpretation (somebody using a fictionalized story from a poem as a source for a real life fact). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:31, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If this event occurred, it is likely that there is only one witness, Lec himself. I can see adding language saying that Lec claimed the story was true, but if there are any references for it, I don't see any grounds for removing it from the article.--Paul (talk) 00:25, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have the Complete SJL Works in Russian, and I'll seewhat it says apropos.--Galassi (talk) 00:44, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
User:Paul.h is right that if there's a source, it's probably Lec himself. I am fine with keeping this with a clarification that he is the source, but we need more information. If the source is in prose - if he said it plainly in a book, interview or such - that's good. If it's only in a poem, it's more problematic. My current suggestion is thus: if this is in prose, we can just add clarification on text ("according to Lec..."). If it is in verse, I'd remove it from main text and just add a footnote saying that "in a poem x, Lec wrote..."). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:46, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is on page 21 in the preface to the russophone Complete Works of SJL. Case closed.--Galassi (talk) 12:37, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Galassi: Well, almost. Can you add a proper references per WP:CITE, with publisher, ISBN, page number, etc.? Preferably using the Template:Cite book. Thanks, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:51, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Galassi (talk) 16:43, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for continued nitpicking, but 1) page number is missing and 2) what is this book? Poem colletion, autobiography, biography...? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:52, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Page 21, in the Preface. It is COLLECTED WORKS, a comprehensive collection of writings (but not COMPLETE). There is no page # in the template, so I left the unformatted ref nearby as well.--Galassi (talk) 14:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Galassi: Thee is a page parameter - I added it here. Who's the author of this preface, and if possible, could you copy here the relevant 2-3 sentences (in original and translated to English)? I am still trying to make sure I understand who's the author of this claim: Lec himself, or someone else? And if Lec, is this based on a poem, or on another statement of his? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:41, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The preface is by YEvgeny Fridman. I think it all comes from Lec's own statement in his Autobiography, which I currently have no access to. You may be able to find it in polish.--Galassi (talk) 13:39, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Killing a guard - fake?

Guys, we updated a Russian page on this and made a ref to an interview with one of Lec’s friends (in Polish) describing his life in the camp and full of details but missing the guard killing story. We are pretty sure the whole story about killing a guard is a fake. Zt fitgerald (talk) 00:11, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Stanisław Jerzy Lec. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:58, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Stanisław Jerzy Lec. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:17, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Edit by Galassi

Galassi's edit: 18:41, 26 April 2019‎ Galassi talk contribs‎ 16,673 bytes -257‎ →‎Biography: rm of a tendentious nonRS

This is a flagrant misrepresentation of the source in question, which is a scholarly work authored by two academics at the University of Warsaw.
Source: Pisarze polsko-żydowscy XX wieku. Przybliżenia, red. M. Dąbrowski, A. Molisak, Warszawa 2006
Authors:
http://ilp.uw.edu.pl/en/pracownik/alina-molisak/
http://ilp.uw.edu.pl/pracownik/mieczyslaw-dabrowski/
This type of tendentious editing thoroughly disqualifies. Tatzref (talk) 04:58, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anything in the source that strikes me as a red flag, so pending response from Galassi I tentatively support restoration of this content. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:12, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Seems UNDUE - random factoid. @Tatzref: Per WP:NOENG, please provide a quote (full context - entire paragraph) + translation of the paragraph.Icewhiz (talk) 19:17, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Very relevant factoid, repeated in many academic works. I've added another reliable source with a quote. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:42, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Quote of entire paragraph + translation per NOENG please.Icewhiz (talk) 10:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Since you can speak Polish well, how about you do it yourself? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:55, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't make comments to the body of other editors. I am requesting per NOENG a quote and translation of a source I did not introduce.Icewhiz (talk) 11:47, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This milestone is mentioned in several academic sources, so there is nothing UNDUE about it. For example, Jacek Chrobaczyński: "„Czerwony Sztandar" (Lwów, 5 XII 1939, nr 61) opublikował wiersz Stanisława Jerzego Leca zatytułowany Stalin. To pierwszy w naszej literaturze wiersz polskiego poety o Józefie Wissarionowiczu." ENGLISH TRANSLATION: "Czerwony Sztandar" (Lwów, 5 December 1939, no. 61) published a poem by Stanisław Jerzy Lec entitled Stalin. This is the first poem by a Polish poet about Joseph Vissarionovich in our literature."
Here's the poem praising Stalin & Lec's new Soviet "homeland" in Polish and English translation:

Któ­rą wy­ku­ło stu ko­wa­li w pie­śni i w cza­sie i w prze­strze­ni, w wę­glu i w mie­dzi, w sre­brze wód, oj­czy­zna, któ­rej ża­den knut już swo­im świ­stem nie ocie­ni - to Sta­lin! Wschód słoń­ca, co się w pie­cach pali, któ­re za­sty­ga w przę­słach mo­stów, co się za­ci­ska w groź­bie kul, oj­czy­zna, jak je­sien­ny ul, w po­żo­dze woj­ny ci­chy ostrów, - to Sta­lin!

ENGLISH TRANSLATION: Which one hundred blacksmiths forged in song and in time and in space, in coal and in copper, in silver of waters, homeland, which no knout will ever shake by its swish - it's Stalin! Sunrise that burns in the furnaces, that freezes the spans of bridges, that tightens in the threat of bullets, homeland, like an autumn beehive, in the conflagration of war – a quiet island, - it's Stalin!

Tatzref (talk) 14:38, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I note that Galassi not only did not explain his reverts -- alleging academic sources to be "tendentious nonRS" -- but he also removed from his talk page my requests for him to do so as "cleanup":
13:40, 6 May 2019‎ Galassi talk contribs‎ 226,741 bytes -7,881‎ cleanup undothank
13:03, 6 May 2019‎ Tatzref talk contribs‎ 234,622 bytes +793‎ →‎Reverts in Articles on History of Jews in Poland and Stanislaw Jerzy Lec undo
03:55, 22 April 2019‎ Tatzref talk contribs‎ 233,829 bytes +431‎ Revert in Article on History of Jews in Poland undo

Tatzref (talk) 14:47, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Stanisław_Jerzy_Lec&oldid=896445682"