Talk:2018–2019 Gaza border protests

RfC on Neturei Karta image

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus is clearly to remove. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 02:27, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

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Currently this page features a picture of Neturei Karta men in recognizably Orthodox Jewish attire holding a sign that says "FREEDOM for GAZA and ALL OF PALESTINE", and showing a map of all of Israel and the Palestinian terr-s colored in the Palestinian flag, and another sign that says "Judaism and Zionism are Diametrically Opposed". Should this picture be allowed to be on this page? Please vote Keep or Remove and explain your reasoning. --Calthinus (talk) 22:01, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Pinging people I see signed on this page, feel free to add anyone I miss : @יניב הורון, Nishidani, Icewhiz, Onceinawhile, Ynhockey, WarKosign, Wumbolo, Sokuya, Igorp lj, Kingsindian, Zero0000, Scaleshombre, Nableezy, ShimonChai, Brendon the Wizard, Bolter21, and Oncontour:

• Remove as proposer. Neturei Karta is widely considered fringe (and I would argue quite WP:FRINGE) both religiously and politically among Jews. The Anti-Defamation League calls them on the "farthest fringes of Judaism"[[1]]. They are well known for stunts like attending the 2006 International_Conference_to_Review_the_Global_Vision_of_the_Holocaust in Iran, where among other things rabidly anti-Semitic Holocaust deniers were given the podium to speak-- including David Duke of the Ku Klux Klan. Their views on a wide range of things are fringe beyond belief, including theologically -- for example they have said that genocide is divine and it is thus in rebellion against God to try to prevent genocide.

The reader, however, is not aware of this, and for the reader the picture is accomplishing two purposes -- (1) a token visibly Jewish contingent denying the right of Jews to inhabit Israel (the reader is not going to be aware of how insanely unrepresentative they are), and (2) an advertisement for Neturei Karta, a quite marginal group. Neither of these is even remotely in line with wiki policy, and are much more adhering to violations of WP:POINT and WP:UNDUE. With regards to the first point, neither attempts to mitigate the conference (before that Duke spoke was revealed [[2]]) nor "fringe views progress civilization" engage with this, while the argument that calling Israel is illegitimate is not fringe overall misses the point that they are making a Jewish argument that Israel is illegitimate and their grounds for that argument include the (arguably masochistic) tenet that any Jewish suffering even up to the Holocaust are "divine will" and therefore not kosher to try to reduce. Okay, I confess I'm not some Halakhic scholar but based on what I do know of the Jewish faith this seems incredibly fringe. Lastly, I believe this RfC should have precedent for the usage of this image elsewhere. Cheers all, --Calthinus (talk) 22:01, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Nobody denies Neturei Karta is a fringe group, rejected by both mainstream Orthodox and secular Jews. However, picture is attributed to them, not simply "Orthodox Jews", so a reader who wants to know who they are have a link to find out. I really don't mind so much this image with the current caption, but I get your point.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 01:18, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps I did get a little caught up on this (… not sure it deserved the RfC, on second thought... my apologies for the pings, sincerely). My thinking was along the lines that not many readers are going to click that link. --Calthinus (talk) 02:10, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

• Remove As well as other protest images that have nothing (almost) to do with the events in Gaza. Showing pictures of protests, and the messages therein, in some of these is essentially WP:SOAPBOXing.Icewhiz (talk) 14:25, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Comment. If you believe that, you subscribe to the principle: All photos accompanying public events covered by Wikipedia that contain images of public protests violate WP:SOAP, and must automatically be removed. That is patent bullshit of course, and has zero to do with Wikipedia policy. If it were, you should immediately remove, for starters, 7 jpgs from Gilad Shalit which illustrate public events asking for his release. Nishidani (talk) 15:03, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

At present we have 4 pictures from international events - to one from events in Gaza (we also have a photo of the fence and burnt fields). This article is about events in Gaza - and photographs should primarily be from in and about Gaza - not from various international events.Icewhiz (talk) 15:29, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Answer the point, don't duck, or switch the reasons for objection when your first collapses. You stated 'Showing pictures of protests, and the messages therein, is (soapboxing).' You know, like every wikipedian that this is utter rubbish: umpteen articles show protest photos or demonstrations, and the demonstrations are connected to the border. So what's the point of making such a silly argument on behalf of exclusion, when it has no basis in policy or practice?

• Gilad Shalit was kept prisoner in Gaza: the article on him has 7 pics showing photos from around the world protesting his treatment.
• At 2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers we have a bus sign in Jerusalem reading 'Bring back our boys'.
• Gaza War (2008–09), one of our outstanding NPOV violations with a dozen photos of Israel being 'attacked' by Hamas, and a couple of damage to Gaza, reversing the reality, we have two photos at the bottom of foreign protesting.
• On your argument the picture at British responses to the anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire of a politician's poster advertising a protest against accepting Jewish immigrants from Russian pogroms is, on that page, soapboxing.
• 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict two photos of protests in Berlin and Helsinki.
• Israeli disengagement from Gaza has a Tel Aviv protest photo on behalf of the Gaza settlers, who represent as small a group as the Haredi.

Therefore the situations are identical, but you are making an exception if the 'victim' is Palestinian.Nishidani (talk) 16:35, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

The situations are not "identical". The protests regarding Gilad Shalit were actually about the topic. But the Neturei Karta signs are also or in fact primarily about something else -- Zionism. Their signs don't mention the Gaza border affair at all. It is inserting commentary about the legitimacy of Israeli statehood into an article that is not about that. --Calthinus (talk) 02:02, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, is it Nishidai's data above correct?

Gaza War (2008–09): "dozen photos of Israel being 'attacked' by Hamas, and a couple of damage to Gaza" @ Nishidani

• Gaza: Destroyed building in Rafah + Explosion in Gaza + Damage to the Zeitoun + Phosphorus cluster bombs + Palestinians in a Gaza city + Al Jazeera video + Destroyed buildings in Gaza + A satellite-based damage assessment of the Gaza Strip + Tent camp, Gaza Strip; Destroyed buildings in Gaza = 8
• Israel: Grad rocket hitting Beersheba + Kindergarten classroom in Beersheba + Repairs being made to water pip + Israelis running to bomb shelters + rocket attacks placed up to 800,000 people = 5

2014 Israel–Gaza conflict "two photos of protests in Berlin and Helsinki" @ Nishidani

• Quds Day 2014 pro-Palestinian protest in Berlin + pro-Israel demonstration in Helsinki - so what?

Israeli disengagement from Gaza, 2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers - what is it so unusual in a fact that significant (key word) parts - up to hundreds of thousands, of Israeli society use their right to demonstrate for or against?

--Igorp_lj (talk) 23:34, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

In response to Nishidani: Even though I do not agree that we need to remove the picture of NK, I especially disagree with the rationale you provided. It's very easy for someone to appear to be arguing against the opposing view when you're strawmanning them. Knowingly or unknowingly, that was just a bad argument: nobody even gave the appearance of an assertion that by definition all photos of protests are WP:SOAP. However, that doesn't mean that which images we do and do not display can absolutely be for WP:SOAP purposes, and I have reason to believe part of you knew this when you argued. It's possible to cherrypick the most extreme examples of one side being violent, downplay how many images we show of that same side being injured or killed, and create the illusion to any casual reader scrolling through the article was the opposite of what actually happened. Images in an article, just like the text of an article, are there to summarize it. Omission and inclusion can be equally charged, and all weight should be balanced. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 23:01, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

It's refreshing to hav editors who disagree, with an intelligible argument. I don't willingly create strawman arguments, there are far too many silly arguments for someone like myself to invent even sillier ones. I look at the operational and logical significance of arguments. And when I read:

As well as other protest images that have nothing (almost) to do with the events in Gaza. Showing pictures of protests, and the messages therein, in some of these is essentially WP:SOAPBOXing.Icewhiz (talk) 14:25, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I remarked (a) that an image of a protest over the Border Protests cannot be dismissed as having 'nothing' (almost) with the Border Protests in Gaza. To do so is in-your-face logical absurdity and (b) that to state 'showing pictures of protests (and the messages displayed) is essentially WP:SOAPBOXING,' is unambiguous in its implications: i.e. for the editor, it is legitimate to remove any protest picture and the message protestors are seen to make on the grounds its presence constitutes propaganda for a cause. That is absolutely dissonant with wiki policies. It would mean, operationally, censoring and excluding all protest photos. I take people at their written word. Nishidani (talk) 14:21, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I could see how a small minority of images, in proper balance, or international protests about the events in Gaza could be relevant. However, it is illogical for these to be a large proportion of the photographs in the article.Icewhiz (talk) 15:13, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Remove Whom does NK represent at all? And another question: why is this sect so liked by Anti-Israeli propaganda? --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:09, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

• Remove The NK are fringe yet savvy at branding themselves, because they are ultra orthodox Litvak Jews who make inflammatory statements. I think WP:SOAP is a difficult policy to enforce in general, when mere coverage of this topic is weaponized. Otherwise, all photos of Gaza solidarity protests outside of Gaza ought to be removed.

I specifically would support removing NK, since they do not reflect mass movements. If you want to cover anti/critical Zionist Jews, Jewish Voice for Peace, If Not Now, J-Street, All That's Left etc... would be better choices. There is obviously a history of anti Zionist Orthodox Jews as seen here Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-Zionism --Shushugah (talk) 23:22, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

• There's a colossal difference between saying that we should remove what you describe as a fringe example and removing all photos of Gaza solidarity worldwide. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 23:01, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Replace NK image, do not remove all of the images or text relating to them Still include the text that mentions NK with sources, but replace the photo with some other international solidarity march. Images, like text, are here to provide an accurate summary of the event and its more important or interesting points, but featuring a random fringe group that, for strictly religious reasons, believes Israel cannot be formed until after the Messiah comes back is just WP:UNDUE weight to a fringe group with little significance internationally. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 23:12, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't think this can be assessed without editors reviewing the overall presence of pics on this page. The breakdown is this:

• (1) Two photos of a deserted peaceful border from the Israeli side and one of a small motorized truck carrying demonstrators and tires on the Gaza side.
• (2) Two photos both dealing with Basques protesting the war (read the language on the banners)i.e.Gaza Iruñea elkartasuna 1.jpg Pamplona /File:Gaza Donostia protesta 2018 3.jpg San Sebastian
• (3) File:Damege caused by palestinian fire-kites 2.jpg in Israel.
• (4) Two photos of a pro-Gazan demonstration in ‘terrorist’ Tehran and Neturei Karta in London in one of several rallies there over the period. The Neturei Karta demonstration https://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2018/04/gaza-london-protesters-denounce-killings-palestinians-180407172616217.html figures prominently in reports of that specific event in London

My assessment is that (1) is okay, despite the implicit message of a peaceful Israeli border and a crammed activist tire-burning Gaza border. (2) and (4) show demonstrations against Israel and for Gaza. That is undue, but the one photo people are pressing to elide is of a demonstration in London, on the grounds that neturei Karta is a fringe Jewish group. Well, take it out and you have 2 images of Basques demonstrating (a minority in Pamplona and San Sebastian), and one of Iran, the 'terrorist' state. You don't have to be Roland Barthes to get the message that those who protested did in obscure corners of the world, either a small ethnic minority in Spain, or a crowd in Iran. What is important about the Neturei Karta image is that it is one of a march that took place in London, you know, the real world. Objecting to the Haredi, and ignoring the fact that they were part of a large group protesting Israel's behavior in central London, leaves us with Basques and Iranians, as marginal as the Haredi in terms of world opinion. The 3rd is fine, but there is no corresponding picture of damage to Gaza or Gazans. So the overall selection is problematic, and singling out for erasure the NK pic doesn't solve the problem, it makes the POV subtextual message even more unbalanced. The elision leaves us with a photo message: there is a border for both, one quiet the other rambuctious; Israel was damaged; Iranians and Basques protested against Israel. The Neturei Karta image says -some Jews (in that April 7 demo there were quite a few small but vocal Jewish anti-Zionist secular people as well) protested, and did so in a major Western city. Nishidani (talk) 17:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

You made a lot of great points and I do agree with you. I did find it curious that specifically Iran was selected to demonstrate solidarity with Palestine. What message does it send when the only photos selected protesting against Israel's handling of the situation, which the UN as a whole passed overwhelmingly, are Basques, Iran, and the NK? The NK is a fringe group, Basque independence movements historically used more violent methods of protest, and those in favour of Israel already hate Iran. In short, it makes it seem that condemning Israel on this one is the fringe-extremist-terrorist position. If uncontentious examples of worldwide protests exist, I'll consider replacing them with ones that no side would object to. There seems to be a very broad agreement here that NK isn't noteworthy enough to put here, but we definitely should find better examples. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 05:08, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, I don't mind a removal of the Neturei Karta image s(as long as it doesn't become a precedent), as long as we remove the other images that create, precisely, the image that protests worldwide are a fringe phenomenon. If the problem is fringe, then it extends to the other three photos of Basques and Iran. Better no images than a false representation overall. Taking all four out is an incentive for editors to do some work and find a more balanced set of pictures. Nishidani (talk) 07:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I'll agree to that. The images should definitely be replaced. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 08:47, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

While I don't care about the other images at all, this is a false equivalence, especially where the Basque images are concerned. 90%+ of people are not versed in the ETA's occasionally violent history -- and those that are, are typically equally aware of the brutal suppression of Basque nationalism under the Franco regime. Indeed, if we argue the pic is pro-Israeli because of the ETA, a argument at least as valid is that it is anti-Israeli, advocating hte idea of solidarity of stateless peoples -- this is not my view, but nevertheless. There is a world of difference between this and using Neturei Karta to import a big sign into the article the statement saying "Zionism and Judaism are diametrically opposed". --Calthinus (talk) 17:55, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually per NPOV editors are obliged in things like this to 'care about the other images' for the simple fact that a page must be measured by the degree it observes neutrality, and where we have a stack of images that are not mutually balanced, but rather pointy in their selectiveness, taking exception to one of 4, the only one that represents an image of protests in a Western capital, which means leaving the page, arguably, more biased, and in this case, no less 'fringe' than the photo of NK which is being removed solely as 'fringe'. The question is not that two Basque images are 'pro-Israeli' but that using an ethnic minority in Spain to represent world opinion about the Israel-Palestine conflict lends itself to a pro-Israeli bias, by suggesting only fringe movements (nota bene NK) protested. And please remember that NK's position on Zionism vs Judaism was the majority rabbinic view for a century before the establishment of the state of Israel, grounded on solid orthodox theological opinions.Nishidani (talk) 19:32, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• Remove per undue weight, fringe group.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 22:03, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• Remove insignificant fringe group. They always joining anti-Israel protests in very very small group, just servel people. The picture gives them more significant than they actually have Sokuya (talk) 11:15, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia is the most biased thing I have ever seen, worse even than Al Jazeera

Of course the events were caused by the protests, those people who sat peacefully hundreds of meters from the fence, but those people are not the main point of the article. The protests have been used for the main events, what the article is ACTUALLY talking about. What attracted international media attention was the CLASHES between thousands of people who entered the no-go zone and stormed the border, many armed with stones and Molotov cocktails, and some even with guns and explosives devices, and the Israeli soldiers. The fact that there were also some people who were far from the fence and were hurt does not matter - in every conflict in the world innocent people are hurt. The excuses I see here above for calling these events "protests" are ridiculous. If any other country in the world would deal with thousands of people, armed with various of violent means, some of them members of militant groups, storming the border from a territory run by an Islamic fundamentalist organization you would call it at least "riots". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:6500:A041:4F8F:21EE:72A9:40B1:8D5B (talk) 08:55, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

And the dozens of highly reputable international media organizations who call them protests – are they all biased as well?

You might consider whether when it feels like the entire world is biased against you, it might actually be you who is biased. Your summary of the events above is dripping with widely-debunked propaganda themes. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:47, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Please read this detailed Vice article which might help balance your understanding of the events. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:55, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

"which might help balance" - Onceinawhile, are you serious? Even after such passage "As a Gaza resident informed Amira Hass, the respected Israeli journalist" as an argument in this article? --Igorp_lj (talk) 14:12, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

She is the recipient of a Lifetime Achievement Award from the International Women's Media Foundation. “Respected Israeli journalist” underplays her achievements. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:57, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

For whom? :( I'm not sure that this is not her another «Defamation case»:

Hass said that she had brought forward sourced information from the Palestinian community and said that it was the responsibility of newspaper editors to cross-reference it with other information from the IDF and the settler community.[17]

Any way, I'd suggest to find a more reliable source & authors for a generalizing article than your one. --Igorp_lj (talk) 18:41, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Onceinawhile is perfectly correct. For a century, every time archives have been opened up, the flood of rhetorical reportage for any past event spinning this tragedy as Arabs invariably attacking Jews/Israelis has collapsed. I am reminded of the prophetic dictum concerning just one example (Be'ersheva but meant to generalize accounts of other 'events' like Gaza) penned by Daniel Boyarin and his brother Jonathan Boyarin Insistence on ethnic speciality, when it is extended over a particular piece of land, will inevitably produce a discourse not unlike the Inquisition in many of its effects. The archives of the Israeli General Security Services will one day prove this claim eminently, although already we "know" the truth. p.712

The alert reader knows that 95% of reportage is crap. The wiki editor just has to 'balance' things, knowing that it's like lumping a ton of manure on the scales to even out a few grams of odorless facts, whose specific gravity gives them a comparable weight, hoping the attentive reader can detect the qualitative difference.Nishidani (talk) 15:15, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

No news :) As usual, Nishidani has found yet someone who tries to equate Nazi & Israeli governments.

This passage was assailed by Alvin H. Rosenfeld, Director of the Institute for the Study of Contemporary Anti-Semitism,[8] who accused Boyarin of lacking "lucid thinking", as well as of "bias" for having drawn an analogy between the Nazi Holocaust and the Israeli government's conduct toward the Palestinians.[9]

--Igorp_lj (talk) 18:07, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

What a wonderful thing Google is. You don't have to read anything. If you find an argument you dislike, rather than familiarize yourself with the work of the author(s), you google what they said to click on any source which criticizes it, and then that is 'proof' the original view is invalidated. I won't even check what Rosenfeld wrote, because I've read closely from top to bottom the paper by the Boyarins, where they specifically disavow any attempts to equate the Israeli government with Nazism.

We are not comparing Israeli practice to Nazism, for that would occlude more than it reveals and would obscure the real, imminent danger of its becoming the case in the future.'p.712

Don't reply, please. You don't appear to read these things except through googled fav criticisms, so argufying with someone who does so is pointless.Nishidani (talk) 09:37, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's me who decides when to reply to your selective (as usual) quoting & fantasies about your opponent.

So one can see what Rosenfeld and Boyarin wrote:

Diaspora: Generation and the Ground of Jewish Identity by Daniel Boyarin and Jonathan Boyarin: We are not comparing Israeli practice to Nazism, for that would occlude more than it reveals and would obscure the real, imminent danger of its becoming the case in the future; the use of Lebensraum rhetoric on the part of mainstream Israeli politicians and the ascent to respectability and a certain degree of power of fascist parties in Israel certainly provide portents of this happening. Our argument is rather for an as yet realized but necessary theoretical compatability between Zionist ideology and the fascism of state ethnicity. Capturing Judaism in a state transforms entirely the meanings of its social practices. Practices that in Diaspora have one meaning-for example, caring for the feeding and housing of Jews and not "others"-have entirely different meanings under political hegemony.

Rosenfeld quoted Daniel Boyarin with disapprobation for having written: "Just as Christianity may have died at Auschwitz, Treblinka and Sobibor ... so I fear that my Judaism may be dying at Nablus, Deheishe, Beteen (Beth-El) and El-Khalil (Hebron)."[6] Rosenfeld accuses Boyarin of lacking "lucid thinking" as well as "bias" for having drawn an analogy between the Nazi Holocaust and the Israeli government's conduct toward the Palestinians.[6]

--Igorp_lj (talk) 15:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

In the infobox

Can you please mention in the infobox that the numbers of the killed and the injured in the Palestinian side include members of militant organizations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:6500:A042:4F8F:7188:7245:86EB:E256 (talk) 09:45, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

+ 1Sokuya (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Need a better source than the ITIC sorry. nableezy - 18:14, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

In the infobox

Can you please mention in the infobox that the numbers of the killed and the injured in the Palestinian side include members of militant organizations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:6500:A042:4F8F:7188:7245:86EB:E256 (talk) 09:45, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

+ 1Sokuya (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Need a better source than the ITIC sorry. nableezy - 18:14, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

@Nableezy: If you personally "Need a better source than the ITIC sorry", then I "need a better source than" Middle East Monitor in the same infobox with its such false title as "123rd victim of Israel's attack on unarmed Palestinian demonstrators". --Igorp_lj (talk) 13:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

External images
Palestinian casualties in the “return march,” June 29, 2018
Yasser Abu al-Naja (upper left, blue shirt), who was killed near the security fence on June 29, 2018. He was part of a Palestinian squad that tried to vandalize the barbed wire face, in ITIC assessment, in preparation for penetrating into Israeli territory (Facebook page of Mus’ab al-Kasas Abu Wadia’, July 2, 2018)
Muhammad al-Hamayda (red shirt) sabotages the barbed wire near the security fence in eastern Rafah a few minutes before he was killed by IDF fire (Facebook page of Kheiri Abu Fires Abu Sinjar from Rafah, June 30, 2018)

The same question to @Nblund: can you please explain why have you erased ITIC's data basing only on such your personal opinion as "doesn't seem like a credible source - at best this should be treated as a biased source..."?

Let's see what's been erased:

Between 2,000 and 5,000 Palestinians demonstrated and rioted at five locations along the Gaza Strip border. Yasser Abu al-Najja (14) died of wounds to the head near eastern Khan Younis, while Muhammad Fawzi Muhammad al-Hamaydeh (24) died of wounds to his stomach and legs east of Rafah. Both them were hit with a shot "trying to sabotage the barbed wire near the security fence"

Sorry, but such denying seems me as attempt to censor so important information and to retain only Hamas' POV in this article.

So I'd remind both you about such so usual & NPOV way as:

• According to (1): ...
• According to (2): ...

even for such sources as CNN & BBC with their manipulation. --Igorp_lj (talk) 14:49, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I only removed the claim that both of the boys were killed while attempting to breach the security fence. The ITIC itself is closely affiliated with the Israeli military, and its ideological leanings are pretty obvious. I looked around and I couldn't find any other source that made this claim. It certainly doesn't appear in anywhere in the mainstream press coverage of the shootings (ex), and the Israeli military has simply pledged to investigate without offering any additional comment. That's a pretty good indication that the claim either isn't reliable or isn't notable enough to warrant mention here, so I'm inclined to scrap it until it gets more coverage. Nblund ^talk 15:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I found that The Jerusalem Post cited that report from ITCI. However, there have been new ITCI reports since then. Sokuya (talk) 20:03, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I was specifically referring to the claim that the two people who were killed were trying to sabotage the security fence - I wasn't commenting on the claim about the number of terrorist affiliates. That said: the mere fact that an outlet mentioned a report doesn't make it a reliable secondary source (see WP:LINKSINACHAIN). It appears that ITIC's definition of "terrorist" is so broad that it includes every major political faction on Palestine, including Fatah and the DFLP, despite those groups not being designated terrorist organizations for several decades. Given that WP:TERRORIST already cautions against using this term without solid sourcing, I'd say this is more likely to misinform readers than clarify anything. Nblund ^talk 21:15, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Sokuya, anyone may learn how much ITIC data is used and where (here is by 'terrorism-info.org.il' only). It's only problem for some editors here in en-Wiki.

Moreover, as I know there no RS decision not to use ITIC's data. Only such verbal obstruction from those editors. --Igorp_lj (talk) 23:08, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

@Nblund: "Just to be clear" - (trying to understand) can you pls tell me if you personally think that ITIC's photos (with appropriate attribution) above aren't correct? --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:45, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

ITIC is very closely affiliated to (and staffed by) Israeli intelligence. There's no way it can be treated as independent. And certainly not in the infobox. It can sometimes be used with attribution. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 00:32, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

@Igorp_lj In regards to the pictures: I have no idea if ITIC's interpretation is correct. It seems like you follow the Israeli-Palestine conflict closely enough to know that photographs are misinterpreted or mis-attributed all the time. The fact that the mainstream press doesn't mention this suggests that it is either dubious or, (perhaps more likely) it is considered irrelevant and a tasteless way to cover the death of a child. Either way, Wikipedia covers points of view in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources - and this particular claim doesn't appear prominent enough to warrant mention. Nblund ^talk 15:24, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Agree with Nblund. The Israeli defense minister is on record as asserting the view that technically, all people in Gaza are members of Hamas (the premise being all Hamas members are 'terrorists', ergo, anyone killed is a terrorist' (Tovah Lazaroff, ‘'There are no innocents in Gaza,' says Israeli defense minister,’ Jerusalem Post 8 April 2018:’ “You have to understand, there are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip. Everyone has a connection to Hamas.’) Those two photos merely show two youths near the fence, who are then gunned down. To get some perspective on the uniqueness of the ITIC/IDF/Government spin on this, you would do well, Igorp to examine the contrast in language used to cover attempts to breach theCeuta border fence between Spain and Morocco. Nishidani (talk) 13:48, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Nishidani, of course. Your "perspective" is already known to me for a long time. Nothing except "We'll make them all believe that the Hamas Is Momma Theresa" :)

And what about BBC with its only (!) last scandal? What is your "perspective" in such a case?

Emmanuel Nahshon: @BBCWorld this is a formal complaint by @IsraelMFA .This title is a deliberate misrepresentation of reality ( that’s the polite equivalent of “ this is a LIE”, if you don’t get it). Israelis were targeted by Hamas and IDF acts to protect them.Change it IMMEDIATELY!!! @IsraelMFA

--Igorp_lj (talk) 21:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

---

References

Map of Gaza Strip

The visual of File:Map of Gaza Strip with no-go zone 2012.jpg remind me OCHAoPT's map. So there is an 2017 updated version map of Gaza Strip created by OCHAoPT's and according to commons:Template:PD-UN-map it's free to use and upload to Wikimedia commons. Maybe we should replace it with the one inside the article? Sokuya (talk) 23:08, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Article should be split

It would make since to split the timeline into another page, and make an overview of the events on this one, the reasoning behind this is that this page has become very long, and to my understanding qualifies for size splitting. As it is currently 223.961kbs. Which is double the rule of thumb.

Also for pages about conflicts in general the actual timeline is usually split, for example, the Timeline of the Winter War. ShimonChai (talk) 02:30, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree this page is too long. That is why I created a page called 2018 Gaza-Israel conflict, but the editors were being disruptive and eventually shut it down. I wanted a page that focuses on the fire kites, the damage they caused and other incidents. This page is supposed to be about the border, according to the title. But if you want all the incidents to be on this page (even if you add more pages) shouldn't the title change?--Jane955 (talk) 13:39, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

The name "2018 Gaza border protests" makes sense in theory, but the page currently does not seem like it is just covering the protests, for example "Several houses in the Israeli city of Sderot were hit by machine gun fire from Gaza, causing damage but no injuries." Doesn't fall under "protests" in any sense of the word. Originally the wording made sense, but that was months ago, and this page, and the border situation, have both expanded to encompass conflict that both sides could agree is more than just protests. It would make sense to make a page dedicated to the current conflict in general, and keeping this page to cover the actual protest aspects of the current conflict. If that's controversial to anyone, then "Timeline of the 2018 Gaza border protests" would also make sense, and it would allow for making the article a reasonable size, also I wouldn't object to a page about the fire kites as they have caused tons of damage to forests and fields around that area, and have also greatly escalated the conflict. But right now it seems better just to come to an easy agreement with both sides to fix the article size problem. ShimonChai (talk) 14:52, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps we should start a new RfC in which we suggest that the article be renamed to "2018 Gaza border conflict." What do you think?Davidbena (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

That has been done a few times, as soon as this article was created there was a debate about the word protest vs conflict. I wouldn't object to it, given the current state of the article, but it doesn't address the size issue. ShimonChai (talk) 15:03, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, this specific name was never suggested. Rather, they had previously debated a change of name entitled "2018 Gaza border clashes." As for the size-issue, it can still be condensed or broken-down into two separate articles.Davidbena (talk) 15:05, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I looked back at the archives, it seems you are right, it was the "Gaza Border Incidents" that the naming debate was about before.ShimonChai (talk) 15:12, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

2018 Gaza border conflict - ? Now it seems to be even more exact name as "Clashes". --Igorp_lj (talk) 15:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

ShimonChai think the rule of thumb applies to readable prose - not including wikimarkup and references. According to this tool, the article is a little over 9,000 words with a readable prose size of 56Kb, so we really aren't in urgent need of a split. I agree that it's unwieldy, but the timeline of events section almost certainly needs to be trimmed to prose form or spun out to a separate article - if we do that, we can easily address size concerns without having to worry about re-hashing an already contentious argument about the article title. Nblund ^talk 16:12, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

@Nblund: If the timeline is summarized and cleaned up it would probably fix the readability issue without having to make a new page, also the "Casualties and damage" also seems fairly unorganized in terms of structure. The bulletin list would be much smaller, and make much more sense as a table. ShimonChai (talk) 12:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Disagree. The article shouldn't be split, a lot of information must be summarized. I raised this issue back in May and shortened some of the sections, by 5000 bytes. The article is a list of events, and in my opinion should be more like a story.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I mentioned the issue of the scope of the article in a section just above. The article is now even more a dumping ground for "latest developments in Gaza". If the idea of the article is really to be about "latest developments in Gaza", it shouldn't arbitrarily start in March. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:44, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

It should either turn into "2018 Gaza–Israel clashes", which will include the two phases of this conflict (the protests and the artillery battles), as they are connected. This choronolgy, sadly only available in Hebrew, shows how the protests, the kites, the talks and the artillery battles are linked together as part of the same event, centered around Hamas' attempt to lift the blockade.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:13, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with User:Bolter21 that the best remedy for this article is to rename it "2018 Gaza–Israel clashes." It has moved beyond a mere protest.Davidbena (talk) 13:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

If it is to turn into 2018 Gaza-Israel clashes (why not just have a separate article for that?), it should cover events prior to March. The blockade is more than a decade old, after all. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

It is because here, in this case, we're talking about a chain of events which had its beginnings from 30 March 2018; events that precipitated from a planned weekly (Friday) march along the Israeli-Gaza border, and which obviously got out-of-hand.Davidbena (talk) 13:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

T he chain of events is endless. The title demands a restriction to the theme of specific events occasionerd by the formal decision to undertake a series of protests. 'Clashes' is a non-starter, for the simple reason that a series of protests involved hundreds of thousands of people whose presence was anywhere from a kilometer to 1 metres from the fence had a 'front line' close to the fence where clashes occurred, and statistically most of the 155 dead were killed, in 'clashes'. Several attempts have been made to alter 'protests' to 'clashes' to reflect that Israeli defrault perspective and have failed. Sometimes one does well to accept that one cannot persistently try to n rechallenge a consensus. To call 'clashing' numerous incidents where people were shot or gassed without throwing a stone is question-begging. The Hebrew Wikipedia is, like Israeli newspaper reportage, for internal Israeli consumption, and is light-years away from neutral. I agree with Kingsindian that one should create another article if one wishes to deal with events that involve no protests, but rather open military conflicts that have come to the fore in recent days, and restrict this page to coverage of events which are programmed basically for each Friday. Nishidani (talk) 13:38, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

This escalation in Gaza, which began in March 2018, and has roots both in 2014 and 2005 is another episode in the Gaza conflict, which has no official or common name. The Haaretz article called it "the events of recent months". Many news articles talk about the things that changed in the last four months, most notable in Israeli media is that "Israeli deterrence is gone". It is all the same event and shouldn't be split but maybe summarized more. A list of kite attacks and protests for each day of a month can be summarized to "In [month] there was a [rise/decline] in kite attacks and [number of ] Palestinians were killed, of them [number] were targeted while launching kites and [number] during protests.[sources, sources, source] And then maybe a few special events that happened that month. As long as the details of every single incident do not contribute anything important for the understanding of the whole thing, there is no need to go into detail. And lists of incidents are the most boring thing to read. I bet less than 1% of people actually read the entire list, and these 1% exclude myself. Not a valid argument, but from the point of view of an Israeli soldier, the army also views the last four months as a distinct period in the conflict, and all of the events are linked together.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

You are correct that a synthesis is required, and the prior work you did was a healthy contribution to the page. My personal view is that one should synthesize when adequate statistical work and analytical historiography is available, and (2) avoid the temptation in a précis of disappearing all of the relevant sources on specific incidents down the Orwellian memory hole. The truth is in the details, historically, and a bird's eye-view rigorously summing up, as often as not, simply denies the curious reader an opportunity to click through and read of what actually occurred with any one incident. Nishidani (talk) 14:15, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Nishidani, I think that, here, the old consensus is being re-evaluated because of ever-changing events. Even if we should use the more precise title of "2018 Gaza–Israel clashes," we can point out in the lede paragraph that the entire episode started out as mere border protests. Truthfully, I don't think that there is anything quintessentially "Israeli" about relating to these disturbances as "clashes," although they may have started out as protests.Davidbena (talk) 14:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

The issue is that when you start and end a story changes the framing of the story. And it is not value-neutral. The events of March-May were certainly important in changing the circumstances of an ongoing conflict. But is it really proper to view them all as a continuation? I talked about a very simple measure above: how many tents are there now, compared to pre-May 15? How many people are there, compared to pre-May 15? As far as I can determine, it's probably a difference of an order of magnitude. That's a pretty sharp break. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:09, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

There is a clear distinction between the long series of border protests, and the recent outbreak of hostilities between Israel and groups in the Gaza Strip. If I am present at a demonstration and shot a couple of hundred yards away from the front line, perhaps while driving an ambulance, I am not, except in Israel's unique vocabulary, engaged in clashing with anyone. There are far too many incidents of this type to permit the POV screwing /spinning of this as 'clashes'. That word in English doesn't cover such 'events'.Nishidani (talk) 14:15, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

The whole four month campaign have nothing to do with "return". No one can reasonably say that the true aim of the Gazan protests is to give Blue identification cards to over a million Palestinian second and third generation refugees. The whole campaign, including the protests, including the kits, including the rockets, is with Hamas' struggle to remain in power and to lift the Israeli blockade and not make Gaza a humanitarian death camp. You seem to be trying to emphasize "Israeli brutallity" and "war crimes", but as much as the life of gazan suicidal protesters, terrorirsts and ambulance drivers are important, there is a bigger picture. The death of a pregnant woman is notable, but have no importance whatsoever in understanding last day's clashes.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:22, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I think you might be replying to Nishidani, in which case you might want to add another indent. The issue is not whether the organizers of "The Great March of Return" were sincere in their motivations or not. The issue is whether that period (March to May) can be treated as a distinct event in this overlong saga. Nobody is claiming that the events in this period weren't connected to the past or the future. But I tried to give a simple measure which suggests that one should have a sharp break at May 15. My second point is that if this article is indeed to become a dumping ground for everything, it should indeed contain everything, not just the events post-March. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:26, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Bolter. The simple answer is, take that ethnic bar-chatting, buddy-yarning POV and use the same principle in re-editing pages like the Bar Kokhba revolt or Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. A conscientious editor with an interest in real history, and not local newspaper blarney would feel obliged, even with gritted teeth to read, for example Norman G. Finkelstein,Gaza: An Inquest Into Its Martyrdom, University of California Press, 2018. Unlike journalists who are hired to feed the masses tripe and spin, he was fired because he examined minutely the details of everything done in, or said about, this conflict.Nishidani (talk) 14:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Nishidani, we do not know that. Perhaps there was intelligence that a couple of hundred yards away from the security fence there was a group of armed militants en route to the fence. You see, we'll never know for sure. What we do know is that everything here is connected one way or the other.Davidbena (talk) 14:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I was raised never to give my government the benefit of the doubt, and, when the Vietnam War broke out, the sober understanding of how consensus, like that Bolter exhibits, with the national narrative is just a lazy lockstep obeisance to stay happily in a comfort zone was vindicated by history. No historian reads the reportage of that war through daily newspaper accounts, since it has been proven endlessly to have been a continual scam of propaganda. Anyone shooting an unarmed person tens to hundreds of yards away from a comfortable position behind a sand berm with an ultra-precise sniper rifle is a murderer, engaged in criminal conduct. Or is so if one subscribes to a concept of law, and ethics, as opposed to lawfare and ethnics. Nishidani (talk) 14:41, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Nishidani, you've made it clear where your sentiment lies. Can we at least edit this page without inserting our own bias? I'm not sure that that's possible, but at least we should try.Davidbena (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

It's not my bias. It is that of Sir Stephen Sedley, who knows more about international law, and Judaism, than anyone here.*Sir Stephen Sedley, 'Short Cuts,' London Review of Books vol 40 No 9, 10 May 2018 re 'a major crime'. Nishidani (talk) 15:08, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Nish, murderer or not, this is not a report on Israeli war crimes, and there is such a bigger picture than the war-crimes. Every person who launches an incendiary kite towards the general direction of a civilian region is also a terrorist. But we don't sit here and try to list every kite attack and their impacts on kindergardens. There is a political conflict, about the lives and security of millions, not the unfortunate deaths of a few noncombantants in a suicide protests, or the death of some corn. I don't wish to continue this discussion, it does not lead to anything productive.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:13, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Okay. Logic. A Gazan who sends an incendiary kite into Israel that burns kibbutz fields is a terrorist. A settler who (google it: hundreds of pages detail the practice, it is almost a weekly event) sets fire to Palestinian fields and olive groves is not a terrorist. I.e. your premise is ethnic. The ethnicity of the agent determines how the act is to be defined, as sanctionable by execution or just ignored. I have no interest in pursuing this either. To me it is all tediously obvious. I've heard these comments endlessly for decades, since the 1960s and arguing is pointless, since the 'arguments' are rarely premised on either sound logical principles, clear definition of terms, or careful impartial evaluation of the evidence. Keep well.Nishidani (talk) 15:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

"A settler who (google it: hundreds of pages detail the practice, it is almost a weekly event) sets fire to Palestinian fields..." - this is Nishidani's "truth" what he's fighting for here. Not according to 1: so, according to 2: opposite.

And his endless not-NPOV series Lists of violent incidents in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an excellent example of such "facts" here in Wiki :( --Igorp_lj (talk) 21:59, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

See Denialism.Nishidani (talk) 09:30, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

As well as Fake news: "a type of yellow journalism or propaganda that consists of deliberate misinformation or hoaxes spread via traditional print and broadcast news media or online social media... is written and published with the intent to mislead in order to damage an agency, entity, or person, and/or gain financially or politically".

Both them are suitable either for mainstream media regarding to PIC (BBC above is only one such example) or for your Lists of violent incidents in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict's version. That's the pity but that some editors aren't able (or do not want) to understand that such not-NPOV approach only damages Wikipedia's reliability. :( --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:37, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

85% - at least - of this thread went off TP guidelines into WP:FORUM - Administrators, please, step in early and often. This whole topic is very touchy anyway, and POV-editors can drag the TP off course easily. Thanks for future diligence. 50.111.4.123 (talk) 00:25, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Re Kingsindian's concern

Obviously, in organizational terms, the Gaza Border Protests concern the formal Friday protests, which are numbered by the Palestinians. The numbering should be kept or retained. The other incidents, of which Kingsindian speaks, are separate issues, not strictly speaking classified as part of the Friday border protest organization. I won't remove them, of course, but the Friday incidents should be updated as long as they last.Nishidani (talk) 19:43, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Infobox and 8/8 events need to be updated

The Infobox need be updated to add the 26 civilians.

Reason:

As 23 has Admitted to treatment on the the night between the 8 and the 9'th.

One foreign worker had been wounded during the barrage

8 August section it should be added the Israeli wounded:

During the night of the 8 August, the Barzilai Hospita treated 23 Israelis for injuries and trauma caused by the mortar and rocket attacks when the total for the weekend was 26 (including the 9'th https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/foreign-worker-severely-wounded-in-israel-by-gaza-rocket-1.6362848).

Who said that these events are part of the border protests ? “WarKosign” 06:55, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

The events are already covered in that page which cover the four months of protests and sequenced events, it's the wounded which are not listed in the infobox and the 8'th description.

References

 Not done It's not clear where within the infobox you want this information to be added. Fish+Karate 13:46, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 September 2018

Where it says:

when Hamas claimed 50 of them as his militants and Islamic Jihad claimed 3 of the 62 killed as members of his military wing

Change both instances of "his" to "its."

Reason: Hamas and Islamic Jihad are not male persons. Their leaders are, but their leaders aren't the ones being referred to. 108.34.186.243 (talk) 08:26, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Addendum: reading further, this seems to be common throughout the article. Someone should give it a sweep. 108.34.186.243 (talk) 08:28, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Fixed a bunch of his to its. Semitic languages gender everything - there is no neuter pronoun - which is probably the source for this. Article could use more extensive copy editing in general if someone want to pick that up.Icewhiz (talk) 09:57, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Sons of Zouari

I made a page about the Sons of Zouari which is a group that legitimate media sources have reported is responsible for the flaming kite/balloon attacks on Israel. I wanted to write more because there are a ton of citations but every time I make a typo and try and go back to correct it the cursor glitches out and starts overwriting the next character making it hard to correct things. ShimonChai (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:59, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

AI summary report on the Great March of Return

Here's an Amnesty International report on the situation so far. The total casualty figures (from Al Mezan) cited there are:

According to the Al Mezan Center for Human Rights, since the start of the protests, over 150 Palestinians have been killed in the demonstrations. At least 10,000 others have been injured, including 1,849 children, 424 women, 115 paramedics and 115 journalists. Of those injured, 5,814 were hit by live ammunition. According to Israeli media, one soldier was moderately injured due to shrapnel from a grenade thrown by a Palestinian from inside Gaza and one Israeli soldier was killed by Palestinian sniper fire near the fence that separates Gaza and Israel outside of the context of the protests.

I've added some of the material to the article. I may do more when I get some time. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:08, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

@Icewhiz: I don't understand the edits removing the Al Mezan reference and simultaneously attributing the statement to Al Mezan. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC)