Talk:Timothy Leary

Information missing

This article is overwhelmingly concerned with Leary's private life and association with drug-taking. He also did separate and important work in psychological theory (theory of personality etc.) that ought to be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.56.74.229 (talk) 02:55, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

External links

I'm not sure I understand or agree with the criteria used to delete all these external links, especially since none was provided. I think arbitrarily deleting 12 links added by other editors requires at least some discussion. Some of them seem to me to be as valid as some of what's left. On the other hand, I think a section with a different name might be more appropriate than just "external links". That seems to have become a repository for just about anything related to Leary. I will create an Interviews section for some of these links, and think about other possibilities. Maybe "Websites devoted to Timothy Leary". In the meantime, as a work resource, here are the deleted links:

• A page devoted to Timothy Leary & LSD with video of Reverend Lakko recalling Timothy Leary's guidance during the Marsh Chapel Experiment, an interaction with Marshall McLuhan, and other Leary links
• I Have America Surrounded - the Life of Timothy Leary - website for a Timothy Leary biography.
• An interpretation of Timothy Leary -- Reviews Timothy Leary: A Biography, discusses Leary and Aleister Crowley. J. L. Flatley
• Timothy Leary - Rotten Library article.
• "How to Operate Your Brain" Leary's guided meditation with video and music
• TFYQA.com - Think For Yourself; Question Authority: Timothy Leary ideals
• High Blotter Mark - Zero Sum Mind article. (Seems to be a dead link)
• Listen online: Think For Yourself - (Seems to be a dead link)
• Dr. Timothy Leary, photographs, River City Reunion, 1987, Lawrence, KS
• Hofmann's Potion DVD Documentary about the Early Years of LSD featuring Albert Hofmann & Timothy Leary

Some will, of course, remain deleted. Rosencomet (talk) 22:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Dismissal

I changed the wording so it is not contradictory. If the stated & cited reason was failure to fulfill his obligations as a faculty member, to advance another reason makes little sense. However, to theorize that an additional factor may have influenced the decision, i.e. to say either that he would not have been dealt with as harshly if he had not also been in disfavor due to his unpopular LSD activities, or that his "failure to complete his lecture schedule" was just an excuse to dismiss him, is not contradictory (though, as sheer conjecture, it still may not belong in this article at all). Rosencomet (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Robert Greenfield's biography has been criticized by many of Leary's colleagues as derogatory and inaccurate. Furthermore, the citation here isn't even from his biography, but from a book review of it. Even further, the quote doesn't match the citation; the quote reads "Chaotic tripping parties ensued, involving students, under "spiritual" or "philosophical" pretexts. In 1963, Harvard — famous for protecting its own — finally choked on the negative publicity and summarily dismissed Leary and Alpert." Not only is there no mention of allegations that Leary and Alpert gave drugs to undergraduates, but it mocks the notion that the Millbrook group used psychedelics for spiritual and/or philosophical purposes, calling these "pretexts". Finally, this claim as to the reason Leary was dismissed contradicts both Andrew Weil's statements and those of the president of Harvard. I believe it violates the guidelines for Wikipedia biographies, and is improperly cited. Simply stating that his dismissal was "after" some allegations by unknown and unquoted persons is not encyclopedic, especially when we have the real reason for dismissal from two reliable sources. I am deleting the line. Rosencomet (talk) 14:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I am also deleting the following line "Around this time, their Harvard colleagues grew uneasy about their research, and about the rumors and complaints (some by parents of students) that had reached the university administration about Leary and Alpert's alleged distribution of hallucinogens to their students." This line has had a citation needed tag since February of 2007, and is certainly the kind of claim that should not be in a biography without proper citation. Rosencomet (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm also deleting the following line that has been unsourced since April of 2007. If someone can find a citation that isn't a quote of this very Wikipedia article, please return it to the article with the citation. " He was frequently spotted at raves with Psychic TV and alternative rock concerts (Ministry), including a memorable mosh pit experience at an early Smashing Pumpkins concert."

I believe that eliminates all outstanding citation requests, so I am deleting the tag requiring them. The article has 32 references. Rosencomet (talk) 15:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Psychedelic experiments and experiences section

"... when Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters visited the residence, the Pranksters did not even see Leary, who was engaged in a three-day trip."

In most articles, this sentence would only have one meaning. For an article on Timothy Leary, however, the sentence is ambiguous. I don't whether he was travelling or conducting an experiment on himself. 58.106.43.11 (talk) 01:37, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, most documentaries state that he was recovering from a heavy trip, and refusing to come down from his room to greet them... --Torsrthidesen (talk) 01:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

According with Timothy Leary's auto-biography (Flashbacks) published in 1983, in the second part of the book, at chapter 24 (Pranksters Come to Millbrook) pages 204/205 we have two versions of the story. Timothy Leary there explains that the first version is Tom Wolfe's version originally published in 1968 on the book "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" which reports: "Where was Leary? Everyone was waiting for the great meeting of Leary and Kesey ... Well, word came down that Leary was upstairs in the mansion engaged in a very serious experiment, a three-day trip, and could not be disturbed"

The second version of the story is Timothy Leary's version which reports: "I had been spending a few days in New York with Nanette (nickname for Nena von Schlebrügge, Leary's third wife). In Grand Central Station, waiting for the return train, I came down with a shivering sweaty flu. Around midnight Dick (nickname for Richard Alpert, later Ram Dass) met me at the Poughkeepsie station full of the news. Ken Kesey and his fabled day-glo bus had arrived unanounced"

According with Timothy Leary's version, him and Ken Kesey didn't meet that night because he felt very ill and went straight to bed. Timothy Leary's version continues by saying that the very next day, him and Ken Kesey with some of the Pranksters met in his personal office at the mansion in Millbrook and there they promised each other to stay in touch as allies.

During an interview in the late 90s, Ken Kesey was asked about the Pranksters' arrival in Millbrook and this controversial meeting with Leary. Kesey's answer was fully supporting Tom Wolfe's version and he said also that him and the Pranksters ultimately went away from the mansion without having met Leary at all. italinux (talk) 20:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

There is photographic evidence of Timothy Leary sitting inside the merry prankster's bus further with Neal Cassady disproving Tom Wolfe's version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 07:29, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Problem with Dates

If he was fired from Harvard in 1963 (...lecturer in psychology at Harvard University (1959–1963). He was fired from Harvard for failing to conduct his scheduled class...) how did he return to Harvard in fall of 1965? Was he hired back? No info is given. Anyone got any sources? Need to plug this hole. Did Harvard forgive him or did he beg them to take him back? Meishern (talk) 23:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

According with Timothy Leary's auto-biography (Flashbacks) published in 1983, he didn't mention anything about Harvard during fall of 1965.
By fall 1965 he was already at the mansion in Millbrook, New York and was busy giving lectures and doing shows with some of his fellow companions all along the East coast, USA.
The aim of these shows was to reproduce psychedelic experiences and they used wording, lights, colours, strobe and some sort of kaleidoscope.
By the end of fall 1965 Millbrook mansion was ultimately closed down and Timothy Leary with his family travelled south towards Mexico where they got busted for $10 weed (2 joints). italinux (talk) 20:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

One of Timothy Leary's first jobs

I read an article in Rolling Stone a few years ago about Tim Leary and was surprised to see that he was credited for working in a psychologist's office in my hometown, Butler, Pa as one of his first jobs. Unfortunately, that was all it really said and I haven't been able to gather any infrormation on it. It would be very interesting for me to learn more about this, and perhaps not coincidentally, the town has a bit of a hippie subculture following in parts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.144.2.26 (talk) 15:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Concord prison experiment

An anon recently deleted some unsourced text, and I'm adding it here for archival purposes. Text follows: Viriditas (talk) 05:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

.The results of this experiment were later largely contested by a follow-up study, citing several problems, including time differences monitoring the study group versus the control group, and other methodology factors, including the difference between subjects re-incarcerated for parole violations versus those imprisoned for new crimes. The study that contested Leary's research concluded that only a statistically slight improvement could be shown by using psilocybin (as opposed to the significant improvement Leary reported).

There actually is a source for that in the article - I thought it was very bizarre to read about the positive results of this experiment, click on the source for it, and find that the source was a follow-up study that found the original experiment's reported findings to be incorrect. I'm going to put that text back in. Weremorl (talk) 05:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

On Progeny...

In the latter passages of this biography, there is mention of a son, Zachary. However, the article only details the birth of a daughter Susan and son Jack (born in 1947 & 1949, respectively) throughout the entire course of his life. Was this Zachary an hallucination of himself and those around him or did we just forget to mention when and under what circumstances he came into being?
--K10wnsta (talk) 05:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Tim had 3 children: Susan (born 1947), Jack (born 1949) and Zachary (born 1973) and adopted by Tim and his last wife Barbara. italinux (talk) 20:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Various

Leary proclaimed the idea of a licence for drugs like for driving. Somewhere on this record: http://www.amazon.com/Turn-Tune-Drop-Timothy-Leary/dp/B0028R1M00/ref=sr_1_cc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1285358211&sr=1-2-catcorr

At the end of the "Influence" section

I have removed the explanation of "Turn on, tune in, drop out," as it is contrary to Leary's own explanation in "Start Your Own Religion"

50.53.144.108 (talk) 23:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC

Changed the Huston Smith section

It was written that Smith only had one psychedelic experience. In doors of perception, Smith states he used it on several occasions as an undergraduate in a "ritual" like way, and took peyote as a "duty" in a native American ceremony. So I changed the text accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.51.138 (talk) 06:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Surfing the Conscious Nets

I stumbled across this graphic novel and, frankly, I don't know what to make of it. It feels like a small pet project by Leary and some friends. It's cover reads "Timothy Leary Surfing the Conscious Nets: a graphic novel by Huck Getty Mellon von Schlebrugge". Within, the credits read "Inter-text: Timothy Leary" (the prefix "inter-" is used throughout the credits, perhaps as a play on "internet", which is a large role in the book). Huck Gutty is an obvious pseudonym, but appears to be a pseudonym for a character in the story (who is black and, presumably, not Leary). Huck Getty is meant to be "Nicotine" Jim Bauer, who is credited in the book as "Good Attitudes: Jim Bauer", which is a half step above "we would like to thank". From what I gather, the letters which make up the book were written by Jim Bauer (Huck Getty), but edited and assembled by Leary. The cover by line credits Huck Getty, but the internal credits list text by Timothy Leary. It's such a small circulation too, I've about given up trying to figure out what this book is meant to be. Any thoughts? Scoundr3l (talk) 23:17, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are asking. Like you've already observed, the content is mostly taken from letters written by Jim Bauer. The book was published by Last Gasp and is still available.[1] Viriditas (talk) 00:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

334 watchers but references in terrible shape?

This page has a large number of watcher (334 at the moment) but the references are in terrible shape. I just fixed a bunch of the most egregious problems but there's a lot of cleanup work still needed. If you like this article enough to watch it, it could use some more love. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Bias

The article at current time reads "Though obtaining useful data (Leary and his associate Richard Alpert were fired)". "LSD-data", useful? Clear bias by a proponent of drugs. Banned drugs, for good reasons. These people are really about idolatry, that is the "data" people should see. Obviously Leary thought he had a totem, that was popular, seen in the phrases and lingo he uses. That is all they are about. Also known by various derogatory terms, later also associated with "yuppies", when the naive associations to peace faded. Forbidden in monotheism ;)

You're quite right. Go ahead and fix the article. ImprovingWiki (talk) 02:16, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the editor is quite wrong. The current article attests to the useful data, such as the Concord Prison and Marsh Chapel experiments as only two examples. The conclusions of these and other studies (psychedelics can help people) have been supported in recent experiments. Viriditas (talk) 04:17, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Header image suggestion

Could someone consider putting a more vibrant, colorful, and expressive picture of Timothy instead of the current one on the header? It's so bland and depressing, and he was such a very outgoing and warm man--he should at least be viewed and remembered by that. Aucirlo (talk) 10:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Bringing it over here. Philosopher?

So, there has been a discussion going-on @ NPOV.Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Timothy Leary This began after one IP editor added Leary to category, "Philosophers". I am another IP--(and my IP has been dynamic/changing), who noticed that the category add was rv, so I took a look, and found what I thought was a good ref., so I added it. (the bibliography ref in the lede.)...................anyhow, I'm bringing the question back here where it should have been. And adding this, Contemporary philosophy#Outside the Profession . With the questions, should Dr. Leary be in the category? And/or should he be added to the "outsider"-list? In the discussion at NPOV, there are links and references to various reliable source mentions of Leary being, doing, and calling himself a Philosopher, but there is an editor of this page who wants to maintain some professional peer-group associations as the "test"--of who can be labeled as a philosopher here in Wikipedia. At this point, it does appear that Dr. Leary does not quite fit into the philosopher category, so I'm wondering what everyone else thinks? Keeping him in the cat. could open the door for others who may actually be better categorized as "outsiders", in the philosopher's article(s). 2601:80:4003:7416:5430:24E8:873B:31D9 (talk) 23:33, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

In the absence of sufficient reliable sources, there is no basis to describe Leary as a philosopher. The lead needs to be reverted to before the POV-pushing done by the IP editors. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

OK-but you know we have RS by Wikipedia standards. What you are asking goes beyond that. 2601:80:4003:7416:5430:24E8:873B:31D9 (talk) 23:45, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

WP:NPOV: "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Have you shown that the idea that Leary is a philosopher is a significant view in reliable sources? No. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

My reading of the discussion at NPOV was that reputable sources were quickly offered to support describing Leary as a philosopher. Maybe you don't hear them. Frankly, I was surprised to see the question arise at all, having lived through the 60s. Whether you agreed with him or respected him or not, my personal recollection is that of course people thought he was a philosopher. It was the 60s. :) I think you should give this one up and move on. Msnicki (talk) 00:29, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

So, FKC, you have cited NPOV. But the sticking-point for you seems to be more of the fact that Dr. Leary was not degreed as one, recognized as one by "legit"-Philosophers-mainly? Or contemporary practitioners of the applied science of Philosophy of his time or after? And/or that he did not base his work in what he called philosophy in the acknowledged philosophers of the past, according-to the accepted standards for study and discourse in the highly specialized field? If-so I SEE YOUR POINTS. But trying to make that fit NPOV somehow, based-on your interpretation of WP:NPOV, is not doing it for me. For some reason, I am liking this to a discussion about whether or not Bill Nye the Science Guy is/was a RS, or acceptable inclusion as a RS on climate change topics in WP, and more importantly, could he be included in a group of Climate Change Scientists. I really do not know how that ended, or what WP policies were cited, but NPOV is too vague to use as a policy example in either case.2601:80:4003:7416:5430:24E8:873B:31D9 (talk) 01:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Msnicki, it is not relevant what unnamed "people" thought in the 1960s, and I think you should know that. While someone did suggest at WP:NPOVN that at least one reliable source identified Leary as a philosopher, that same person also noted that one reliable source was not enough by itself. The fact remains that no one has shown that the idea that Leary was a philosopher is a significant view in reliable sources. That being the case, the reference to Leary as a philosopher needs to be removed from the lead, as it is misinformation and potentially damages Wikipedia's reputation as a serious work of reference. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:55, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

My mention of my surprise was not offered as evidence of notability but rather at face value, that, no surprise, others quickly provided reliable sources in the discussion at NPOV indicating that Leary was indeed regarded as a philosopher. He may not have been a good one, he may not have made any money at it, it's possible that only the most drug-addled thought he made any sense at all. But the sources do say he was philosopher. You sought a consensus at NPOV and it didn't support you and you don't seem to have a new argument here. You can't keep forum-shopping until you get the answer you want. Consequently, I'm going to revert your latest edit in a moment. Msnicki (talk) 01:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

The suggestion that Leary was a philosopher can be read in two ways: (a) he thought a lot and/or made insightful commentary; or (b) he held an academic position as a philosopher and contributed to recognized philosophical journals. The lead of the article currently includes "Occupation: Psychologist, Writer, Philosopher" which is patent nonsense as no source supports the (b) interpretation. If (a) applies, the word is meaningless as lots of people think a lot. If a source with an in-depth analysis of Leary describes him as a "philosopher", and if there were any encyclopedic benefit to including such a meaningless term, the body of the article might include an attributed opinion, however there must be no mention in the infobox unless someone can show Leary was employed as a philosopher. Johnuniq (talk) 23:31, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Isn't there a third option, that reliable sources say he was philosopher and that settles it? Here at WP, the goal is verifiability, not truth. If you disagree, maybe you should write your own book claiming he wasn't really a philosopher, get it published by a reputable house, then we can have a section titled "Philosopher controversy". For now, the published sources and the consensus sought and obtained at NPOV seem pretty compelling to me. Msnicki (talk) 01:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

It is up to you to show that Leary being a philosopher is a significant view in reliable sources, per WP:NPOV. That has not been demonstrated. Discussion at WP:NPOVN has mostly favored leaving out the "philosopher" label, on the grounds that there is so far not enough evidence to show that it is an important view in reliable sources. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:02, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

I just re-read the NPOV discussion. A source doesn't get a lot more reliable than the LA Times and while no thought he was a new Aristotle, I think there was a consistent, if grudging admission that he was considered a philosopher. Yes, a lot of the discussion argued against considering him a philosopher but that's only because virtually all of that was YOU, repeating yourself over and over. Nobody else was anywhere near as insistent and NO ONE else worried that reporting something even the LA Times remarked on would damage WP's reputation. Wow. I think you just thought you won. It sure didn't look like it to me. I was about to revert to you again but got beat to it. Msnicki (talk) 02:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Here is the situation:

• From Philosopher: "A philosopher is any intellectual who has made contributions in one or more current fields of philosophy, such as aesthetics, ethics, epistemology, logic, metaphysics, social theory, and political philosophy." (definition added by SPECIFICO)
• "Activist philosopher" is a made-up term to highlight the fact that it is not referring to the profession of philosophy.
• The LA Times story is titled "COMEDY REVIEW : Timothy Leary Does His Stand-Up Philosophy Show on Sunset Strip" and the only mention of the term in the article is "Leary did his stand-up philosopher act...".
• A throw-away IP is willing to edit war to promote the idea that Leary's occupation included "philosopher".
• The philosophy game is hilarious, but sprinkling links in articles should not be encouraged.

Would editors please read the LA Times article as it was written—it is a review of a comedy act, not a biographical statement regarding Leary. The mentions of "philosopher" are not a serious attempt at assessing Leary's credentials. We will have to get the article semi-protected or wait until the IP finds another horse to beat. Johnuniq (talk) 03:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Msnicki, you should perhaps read the discussion at WP:NPOVN again. The IP editors supported calling Leary a philosopher. Here are the views expressed by the other users who commented, besides myself: "No evidence has been provided that he AUTHORED and TAUGHT, and LECTURED philosophy. The source provided says he was an "activist philosopher," whatever that is. So I would take it out" (The Four Deuces); "Doing a google search (yes, not exhaustive) clearly shows that if the word "philosopher" is used with Leary's name, its a self-ascribed label that he called himself and not a professor that we could call him as such. The LA Times article above, for example, shows how he used "Stand-up Philosopher" to describe a stage act. He had a specific philosophy, but that's not same as being a philosopher by profession" (Masem); there are a few legit sources out there that do describe Leary as a philosopher (among other things). The International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, for example, describes him as "a psychologist, scientist, and philosopher who made substantive contributions to interpersonal theory and methodology and also gained notoriety for his endorsement of and research on hallucinogens." So the IP isn't completely off-base, although I'm skeptical that there are enough sources like this out there to justify using the "philosopher" label (Fyddlestix); "we need surely to be quite strict and consistent about what we mean when we describe someone as a "philosopher". The term is often used quite loosely in the real world for anyone who has opinions or theories about life and the wider world, as well as in a more formal academic or historical sense, and it should be latter that we focus on. Sources that may well be "reliable" in the broadest sense can often be found that say X or Y is a "philosopher", but we shouldn't blindly follow one or two randomly selected ones, especially when there's no guarantee they mean the same thing as others. This isn't a matter of sourcing per se but, as noted, a matter of what sources and what is meant by the term" (N-HH). In other words, there is a consensus against applying the philosopher label at this time. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:09, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Timothy Leary refered to himself as a performing philosopher, the press called him a stand up philosopher because he often used comedy to grab people's attention. FKC you are like a broken record, making the same point over and over again. Maybe the reason Timothy Leary hasn't been ackowlaged by other philosophers is due to his controversial beliefs in the same way Terrence McKennas's stoned ape theory was rejected by anthropologists without even having been investigated. My point is philosophy is not a union, someone should not have to be acknowlaged by other philosophers to actually be one. Also there are many sources that credit Timothy Leary as a philosopher, but he really is on the outside of mainstream philosophy. What are you'r thoughts on Aldous Huxley, do you not think he should be credited as a philosopher? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 07:02, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

You should read WP:NOTFORUM. Wikipedia talk pages are not there for discussing our personal opinions and beliefs about various subjects; they are there so users can discuss how to improve articles. Actually, what the hell, go ahead and keep violating the policies, and get yourself blocked. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:53, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

So your obviously the kind of person who thinks your opinion is the only one that matters. You contradict everything you say with your own hypocrisy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 08:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

No, I don't think that only my opinion matters. I think that Wikipedia is a collaborative project in which users need to consider each other's opinions. I've tried to explain both that, under WP:NPOV, you need to show that the view that Timothy Leary is a philosopher is a significant view in reliable sources (which means that just one source is not enough), and also that there is general disagreement with you at WP:NPOVN, but you aren't listening, and the personal abuse you're directing against me makes it nearly pointless to continue to try to discuss things with you. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

The bottom line is that the cited source is reliable and it doesn't matter whether you agree or not, you do not have the power to overule other editors and I have not broken any of wikipedia's policys. I think Msnicki said all there was to be said and I am done with this debate. Obviously you cant even handle debate if you consider criticism to be personal abuse. I have better things to do with my time, goodbye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 09:24, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

You violated WP:NPA by describing me as "YOU HYPOCRITE". You might be blocked for that; you'll definitely be blocked if you keep it up. Personal attacks of that nature are not considered an acceptable form of "criticism" here. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Comment: There are multiple reliable sources referring to Leary as a "philosopher". A quick Googling just gave me this book (Malice in Wonderland: The Bush Junta from 2000-present by D. L. Joy) and a Time magazine article from 1996 calling him "a psychedelic philosopher". -- Irn (talk) 10:47, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

FKC--there are more than one IP in this discussion, you keep saying, "the IP". I am one-of the IPS, and again, mine is dynamic and keeps changing, but if someone really wanted to try, they are similar-(my IPs). You have been refuting what are normally considered reliable sources, repeatedly. That is not how WP is supposed to work. Also-mentioning gaming WP w/philosophy, this really has nothing to do with that, and why should Leary's article be stunted just to "punish" the philosophy game problem? What I'd really like to know, and really I don't think that it is too relevant to the problem one way or the other, but maybe just to help you, or me, or us, is "What would it take for you to agree that Dr. Leary was a philosopher?", and since you repeatedly say that he was not acknowledged by the field, but you conceded that "some" philosophers may have included Leary......so, do you have a list of American Philosophers, from Leary's time, and after, who ARE philosophers in your opinion? IMO-you are the one using too much WP:SYNTH to exclude Leary as a philosopher. Your "test"--is not as far as I can tell something or policy that we can use to judge this. Your persistent citing of NPOV, actually works against your point from the way that I look at it, where many have named Leary as a philosopher, so by my understanding of what you specifically cited for NPOV, it sticks. But I guess my most important question to you is who are these philosophers that are acceptable to you and maybe we can help each other that way.2601:80:4003:7416:8C4C:77AF:846C:E4CF (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

If someone wants to show that Leary was a philosopher then they should provide high-quality sources showing that Leary was a philosopher, such as respected works of reference dealing specifically with philosophy. That's a crucial point that some users here seem to have lost sight of. As noted on WP:NPOVN, the term "philosopher" can mean different things, and it is disingenuous to suggest that Leary should be labelled a "philosopher", without qualification, simply because some writer at Time magazine (not a source noted for being a high-quality reference on philosophy) labelled him a "psychedelic philosopher." The book by D. L. Joy is also not a work specifically concerned with philosophy, and such not a high-quality source for this purpose either. Wikipedia looses its credibility as a reference if people can't grasp such basic points. This has nothing to do with "refuting what are normally considered reliable sources", and everything to do with employing good judgment in editing. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:40, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree with johnuniq, who quoted

*From Philosopher: "A philosopher is any intellectual who has made contributions in one or more current fields of philosophy, such as aesthetics, ethics, epistemology, logic, metaphysics, social theory, and political philosophy." (definition added by SPECIFICO)

Self-described, or activist, or performing philosopher is OK. Philosophy is an accredited profession, like medicine, or mathematics. To call Leary a 'philosopher' is demeaning and derogatory to philosophy. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 14:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I couldnt disagree with you more. Like Leary, Aldous Huxley never recieved a paycheck for his contribution to philosophy, it would be absurd to argue that he wasnt a philosopher just because he was never employed as one. There is no distinction between someone who practices philosophy and someone who performs it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 17:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Totally agree with #766B's disagreement It is not purely accredited, and it is too narrow an assessment to compare it to say, medicine. A closer comparison would be- say- historian, whiich while being composed mostly of paid academics, can also be the preserve of gifted amateurs. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 17:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, Fortuna, you're not understanding what was said. I am quoting the Wikipedia definition of philosopher!

Leary didn't even qualify as a quack, since he didn't practice philosophy to any standard. Your definition is unsound. According to you, a gifted 3-year-old could be a philosopher. What makes philosophy philosophy is that it is an academic discipline, just like history. Anything does not go as philosophy. Please re-examine your position. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 20:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

What in world do you suppose anyone does to "practice" philosophy? He wrote books about his philosophy, that satisfies me. Consequently, I've rolled back the changes removing this. Msnicki (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Anyone can write books about something they call their philosophy. That does not determine who qualifies as a philosopher on Wikipedia. (I've explained that we need high-quality sources calling Leary a philosopher, ideally works of reference dealing with philosophy). Looking at the article's recent revision history, it seems that you have been reverting multiple other editors over this issue; that is something you definitely should not be doing. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It is ridiculous how long this debate has been going on. This page needs to be permanently blocked from editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 21:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Msnicki,

"Practice to any standard": Writing books about his philosophy absolutely does not qualify him as a philosopher. Quoting Einstein does not make him a theoretical physicist. Balancing his checkbook does not make him an accountant. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 21:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Blue Mist. What is supposed to be listed in the lead sentence and infobox is the subject's occupations'. Professional occupations. If they do not have the professional qualifications for the occupation, then it was not their occupation but rather an avocation. This can be discussed elsewhere in the article, but it is misleading to put avocations into the lead sentence and infobox as if they were professionally qualified occupations. Skyerise (talk) 22:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

What is this business about there being some kind of standard for being a philosopher? That's obviously a completely made-up condition, just like the comparisons made to licensed occupations like medicine. Notice the use of the word, "any" in the definition given in our own article on Philosopher, which reports that A philosopher is any intellectual who has made contributions in one or more current fields of philosophy, such as aesthetics, ethics, epistemology, logic, metaphysics, social theory, and political philosophy. ... More broadly, a philosopher may also be one who worked in the humanities or other sciences which have since split from philosophy proper over the centuries, such as the arts, history, economics, sociology, psychology, linguistics, anthropology, theology, and politics.

All it takes is a quick Google search to find that Leary wrote or edited a whole series of books that defy description as anything except philosophy, including Your Brain Is God, Neuropolitique, Foucault and Philosophy, The Psychedelic Experience: A Manual Based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead and, of course, Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out. If you're questioning whether these are philosophy books, please look at them and then tell what you think they are instead.

Yes, many people thought Leary was crazy. Nixon thought he was "the most dangerous man in America". But except some possible distaste over his views on drugs, I'm struggling to know how anyone argues he wasn't a philosopher except by silly made-up tests, like whether he ever held a government-issued license declaring he was "registered professional philosopher" or held a paying job where his title was "staff philosopher". Msnicki (talk) 01:25, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

This whole debate is pointless considering philosophy really isnt much of an occupation anyway. I doubt Aristotle, Plato, Socrates were ever paid for their ideas. As for Leary's credentials he did have a doctorate degree of philosophy from the university of berkeley, if that alone is not enough to qualify him as a philosopher im not sure what is. Also I really dont think it matters what tricky dick or the so called "silent majority" thought about him or his views. Psychedelics are probably the most misunderstood drugs to have ever existed, Leary was far from being crazy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 01:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

It would not satisfy me. I think it belongs there. Msnicki (talk) 02:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I know you're new, so I'm sure you're not aware of this, but editing your remarks after they've been replied to is generally discouraged because it can make the responses look nonsensical. Above, I was responding to your question, would it satisfy everyone if "philosopher" was removed from the list for Leary. Now that you've removed the question, my answer doesn't make much sense anymore. Msnicki (talk) 19:23, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Duly noted, I will try not to make that mistake again. The reason I removed my question is because I realized it was unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 19:51, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

If you'd like to revise a comment after it's already been replied to, strike the part you're deleting with <s>...</s> tags and insert the new text with <ins>...</ins> tags. Text that's been struck looks like this and text that's been added looks like this. Msnicki (talk) 01:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• From the sources cited here, and a brief googling, Reliable independant sources describe him as a philosopher. Arguing that they are wrong and pointing to definitions of philosopher or that he wasnt credentialled (*really* a silly argument if you look at the history of philosophy) is OR. RS call him it, so wikipedia can describe him as one. If you want to exclude that description, you need a better argument than 'Well he isnt!' Move on.Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:43, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Did anybody here actually LOOK at those sources, or read this Wikipedia article in detail? Those sources are NOT Wikipedia:RS, and they show that he was a writer and a psychologist, but NOT that he was a "philosopher" or a "mathematician" or a "psychiatrist" or a "biochemist" or a neuro-surgeon".

BlueMist (talk) 14:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about his books. If you don't think they're books on philosophy, what do you think they are? Inquiring minds want to know. Msnicki (talk) 15:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Which one? BlueMist (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Take your pick. I listed several. Msnicki (talk) 16:57, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Regarding RSs calling Leary a philosopher, I gave you these two above, and now here are some more: philosopher-psychologist from The Age, psychedelic philosopher from the Los Angeles Times, social philosopher by the LA Times again, and psychedelic philosopher from New York Daily News. -- Irn (talk) 16:40, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

psychedelic philosopher sounds fair enough for me. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 17:47, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I have no objection to Leary being called a "psychedelic philosopher" if the statement is properly attributed. Calling Leary a "philosopher" without qualification has always been the problem. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:54, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Removal of cited information

IP 2605:a000:1200:406f:bdc2:282a:6c52:766b is edit warring to remove properly cited information, as visible here where it reverts me and here where it reverts another user. As this is unacceptable behavior, I have had to request that the article be protected. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:34, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Wow, such incredible hypocrisy. FreeKnowlageCreater is edit warring to remove properly cited information, visible at Timothy Leary: Revision History. Why not try practicing what you preach? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 06:20, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

You should try reading WP:CIVIL. Persistent incivility can get you blocked. As to content issues, the situations are of course not the same: you are removing properly cited information for no valid reason, I am removing claims that can be found in sources but still need to be removed per WP:NPOV, since they give undue weight to the opinion of a very small minority - that Timothy Leary is a philosopher. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:58, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

You did the exact same thing I did YOU HYPOCRITE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 08:24, 28 March 2016 (UTC) You cannot overule everybody on wikipedia, you are the only one who has a problem with the cited source crediting Timothy Leary as a philosopher. You stand alone, and nobody is listening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 08:32, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

"YOU HYPOCRITE" - really? That's a direct and blatant personal attack and under WP:NPA, you deserve to be blocked. Not much more for me to say under these circumstances. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:50, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

The definition of hypocrisy is "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense" which is exactly what you have done, edit-warring in exactly the way you criticize. Further, it's a description of your behavior, not of you personally -- he hasn't called you an idiot, for example, which would be personal -- and it's completely on target. This is how you've behaved. I think you should take the criticism to heart and think about you could modify your behavior to be more collegial. Msnicki (talk) 23:14, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

WP:TPYES: "Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page." You should not need reminding of this. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It's fair to comment on behavior, just as you did when you went WP:ANI to complain about others' behavior (which, of course, turned out to be no different than yours.) But two caveats, it has to be true and it can only be about behavior, not a judgment of the person. I'm satisfied I did that, but you're welcome to take me to WP:ANI as well if you're still not happy. Msnicki (talk)

Just for the record, what I did was delete cited text claiming Timothy Leary was fired from harvard due to the controversy surrounding his psilocybin expiriments and the popularity of psychedelics on campus. This a common misconception as Richard Alpert was the only one who was fired and Timothy Leary quit and lied about being fired because he thought it would add to his rebel image. WikiPedant informed me that if I was going to make this claim I would have to find a new substantive citation to support it, which I am unable to do. This alone does not constitute edit warring for which FKC accused me of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 22:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

If you are admittedly unable to find a source supporting your version of events, then one can reasonably ask that you not continue to try to add it to the article. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:27, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I haven't, I only reverted WikiPedant one time after I forgot to explain my changes to the article. I don't need you to tell me this. 2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 1 April 2016

Please add the following citations to the description of Leary as a philosopher in the first paragraph: Msnicki (talk) 16:54, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

References

 Administrator note I'd rather not make any changes to this protected article without consensus from other editors, although I recognise that adding additional sources is unlikely to be controversial. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:00, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

By dragging the matter through 4 different drama boards over this simple content question, FreeKnowledgeCreator has delivered us to bureaucratic hell. It is time to unprotect the page, requested here and here. Msnicki (talk) 19:48, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Of those citations, #4 and #5 clearly do not describe Leary as a philosopher, and it would be improper to add them. If you are really convinced that Leary should be described as a philosopher, then at the very least you need sources that directly and unambiguously describe him as such, not sources that vaguely assert, without further elaboration, that Leary is associated with a "sort of LSD philosophy". I'm not surprised at all that some sources describe Leary as a philosopher, or that none of the sources you provide are high-quality works of reference specifically about philosophy. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:25, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources #4 and #5 say he explored philosophy and even "founded" one but you don't think that supports a claim he was philosopher? So that only leaves 4 new sources (3 hardcover books and a newspaper) that clearly do call him a philosopher and that's just not enough because they aren't sufficiently high quality?

It sounds like your objection is that you don't think he was any good as a philosopher, not a serious one, anyway, and that you don't think he had any impact a philosopher. Okay, he's no Kant, who I know you like, but have you looked at Leary's Google scholar citation count? The psychedelic experience, clearly a work of philosophy, got 295 citations alone. In the academic world, especially in a slow-moving field like philosophy, as opposed to something like engineering, where I teach, that's an impressive number. That alone might have gotten him tenure a lot of places if his philosophy hadn't involved drugs.

I'm coming to believe there's just nothing you would accept. But consensus doesn't mean unanimity. It is time to move on. It shouldn't be that big a deal to admit that, yes, among other things, he was a philosopher, however good or bad. Msnicki (talk) 21:37, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

No, sources #4 and #5 do not say that Leary "explored philosophy". Source #4 says that Leary "explored the cultural and philosophical implications of psychedelic drugs" and source #5 says that "he founded a sort of LSD philosophy", and this does not support the claim that Leary was a philosopher. Per WP:NOR, "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." By using these sources to try to claim that Leary was a philosopher you are, clearly, going beyond what they actually state. Note that WP:RS states that, "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people." The key part of that is "authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject". What authors regarded as authoritative in relation to philosophy have stated that Leary was a philosopher?

WP:RS also states "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication." This is why I've patiently pointed out that works of reference dealing with philosophy would be the ideal sources for the claim that Leary was a philosopher. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:50, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I think you're ignoring the word "or" in the definition of reliable source. It doesn't have to be "authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject" but, rather, may be, or it may be "materials with a reliable publication process", which we have plenty of. -- Irn (talk) 11:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

*Strongly opposed* This is an attempt by Msnicki to "own" a controversial topic, and to circumvent a consensual resolution through administrative force. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 21:04, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I bet I could find over a hundred different sources crediting Timothy Leary as a philosopher and it still wouldn't be good enough for some of you people.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't care what you bet. Provide a hundred different sources, if you can - they might be perfectly acceptable and convincing, if, for example, they are high-quality sources specifically about philosophy. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Request disabled due to lack of consensus — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:28, 1 April 2016 (UTC) Many of the sources listed are reliable and of good quality. FKC, you just seem to have a bias against any philosopher who advocated psychedelic drugs, thats why you went to Aldous Huxley's article immediately after Leary's article was blocked from editing and deleted philosopher from his list of occupations.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 22:11, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:TPYES: "Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page." FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that there are plenty of sources describing him as a philosopher, and I don't know why this is still a discussion. --OpenFuture (talk) 04:39, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I explained my problems with Leary being called a "philosopher" without qualification above, with reference to WP:RS. I would not have the least objection to having the article state that someone described Leary as a "psychedelic philosopher", but calling him a "philosopher" without qualification, or listing "philosopher" as his occupation, is something else again. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:18, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

There is plenty of sources describing him as a philosopher without qualifications. That you don't like it, doesn't change that, and doesn't mean you can remove it, just as I unfortunately can't remove it from the enormously overrated quasi-thinker Ayn Rand. WP:RS trumps our personal opinions. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Plenty? Which one? Just show a single Wikipedia acceptable reliable source, and the issue is closed. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 08:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

There is six listed at the top of this section. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Then bring it to a vote to see if you have a Wikipedia consensus. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 09:23, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

No, you don't WP:VOTE about consensus. This is not an issue of 3 vs 2 votes or anything. Wikipedia has policies, and those should be followed. The article currently calls Leary a philosopher. This has been called into doubt. As a result there has now been provided 6 or more reliable sources calling Leary a philosopher. WP:RS trumps WP:DONTLIKEIT. You instead need to come up with a lot of reliable sources stating that Leary is NOT a philosopher. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Why are you deciding for everybody what's "reliable source"? Quote WP:Vote -- "While not forbidden, polls should be used with care. When polls are used, they should ordinarily be considered a means to help in determining consensus" BlueMist (talk) 14:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not "deciding" this. They are quite clearly reliable sources. --OpenFuture (talk) 16:32, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

As I have already patiently pointed out, two of those sources obviously do not call Leary a philosopher, and it is original research to try to use them to support the "philosopher" claim. That's quite independent of the issue of the reliability of the sources in question. This is not, as Msnicki wrongly states, a matter of "hair-splitting", but of basic responsibility in using sources: editors should not use sources to try to support claims they do not directly support. Msnicki's revert is disruptive, given that there should be no need to restore those dubious citations, if the others were sufficient. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

And I've explained why I think your argument is dumb. I don't agree with and doubt you can find consensus support for hairsplitting that sources reporting that "Leary explored the ... philosophical implications of psychedelic drugs" and that "he founded a sort of LSD philosophy of use that involved aspects of mind expansion and the revelation of personal truth through "dropping acid." do not support a claim that he was in fact a philosopher. Philosophers philosophize. That is what this one did. These sources support that and describe his work as a philosopher. Msnicki (talk) 22:56, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Maybe you find insistence on following WP:NOR "dumb" when that gets inconvenient, but WP:NOR is still an important Wikipedia policy. If you want to support a claim that someone is a philosopher, find a source that directly, unambiguously calls them a philosopher. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:00, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Another trip to yet another drama board? Sure. I would expect no less. Would either WP:RSN or WP:ORN seem satisfactory? Take your pick and I will follow. Msnicki (talk) 23:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Unsolicited third-party opinion - the description of "philosopher" in the lede is well-supported by sources that meet WP:RS. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 02:44, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Even if we accept your hair-splitting (because it is hairsplitting to claim that someone who explores philosophical implications isn't a philosopher), that leaves four reliable sources that DO call him a philosopher. Against zero reliable sources that offers the opposite standpoint. This isn't even a controversy, it's just you stubbornly pushing your non-neutral point of view, as you so often do. --OpenFuture (talk) 05:10, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Skyerise has now also objected to describing Leary as a philosopher, also arguing this is impermissable WP:OR. Consequently, I have posted a request for guidance at WP:ORN#Sources to support claim that Timothy Leary was a philosopher. Msnicki (talk) 04:50, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Additional references

References from HighBeam Research-- Isaidnoway (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

References

Philosophy of mind

In the absence of a source stating that Timothy Leary was engaged in philosophy of mind, he must not be labelled a "philosopher of mind", as that violates WP:NPOV. This edit by Msnicki restores a category that has no basis in anything in the article, and the edit summary used ("His philosophy of mind expansion doesn't count? Of course it does"), shows clearly that Msnicki's reason for restoring the category is simply based on her personal beliefs about philosophy rather than reliable sources. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:30, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree. And Leary did not write about the philosophy of mind. "Mind expansion" is not a topic in the philosophy of mind. TFD (talk) 17:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree. The silly part of the recent fuss here and at Aldous Huxley (any others!?) is that referring to Leary and Huxley as philosophers is using a very informal meaning of that word that is only tenuously connected to its encyclopedic meaning. Johnuniq (talk) 23:56, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Literature about expanding the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world has very much to do with the philosophy of mind. Mind manifesting drugs are tools that are as useful to the philosophy of mind as the microscope is to biology or the telescope is to astronomy. Why do you think LSD was called the philosopher's stone? In fact the mysteries of eleusis, which nearly every ancient greek philosopher participated in, may have very well been a psychedelic drug. I don't think it is too far off to suggest that someone who was called a philosopher back in ancient greece might today be considered a shaman.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 03:51, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Please see WP:NOR. You are entitled to your personal view of what the philosophy of mind is, but no one should be adding the category when there is no evidence of any kind that Leary is considered a philosopher of mind by reliable sources. In the absence of supporting sources, the category must be removed. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:59, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

To argue that philosophy of mind expasion is not the same as the philosophy of mind would only be hair-splitting.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 04:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

No one has any need to discuss an issue of that nature. If you want the article to include a "philosopher of mind" category, then per WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, you need a reliable source supporting the claim that Leary was a philosopher of mind: that's perfectly simple. Please review the policies. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:59, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The sources are reliable, and the category should only be removed once you have a consensus to do so which you currently do not have.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 05:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

There are no sources of any kind that call Leary a "philosopher of mind", and of those users who have commented on the issue, most support removing the category. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The sources call Leary a philosopher of mind expansion. What your doing is merely hair-splitting.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 05:44, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

No, there is no source that calls Leary a "philosopher of mind expansion", and even if there was a source that used that exact expression, there is no evidence that "philosopher of mind expansion" has anything in common with the academic discipline called philosophy of mind. If you want the article to categorize Leary as a philosopher of mind, you need a reliable source that actually calls him a philosopher of mind. Your arguments are specious, and amount to an attempt to avoid the plain meaning of WP:NOR. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 06:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Right, and after I find several different reliable sources you will find any trivial reason imaginable to argue that they're either not of good enough quality or that they're unreliable, and then after a week of debate across various forums and after I've found over a half dozen different reliable sources you will complain about there being too many sources and accuse me of being disruptive. Then ultimately you'll admit that you actually agreed all along but really just wanted your source to be the only one listed. That's how this goes right?2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 06:57, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

No. Find a reliable source that supports the "philosopher of mind" category, or it will be removed, it's that simple. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

How many sources are needed? Give an exact number, please, because last time you complained there wasn't enough sources, but when six sources was provided, you called it "over-referencing". --OpenFuture (talk) 07:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

There is no reason for me to respond to that disingenuous request, as it does not really relate to the issue at hand, but seems to be an example of you complaining about my past behaviour. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:49, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, if you admit that this past behavior was mistaken, I guess I can let it rest. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

OpenFuture, you yourself stated, of the claim that Leary is a philosopher of mind, "That claim is both false, and original research." If you were willing to state that at the original research noticeboard, then why would you fail to state it here? It would have been more constructive than trying to provoke me. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:50, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I remember writing that, but I don't remember the comment I replied to. I must have misunderstood it or replied to entirely the wrong thing. Sorry for the confusion. But that doesn't change my comment above. --OpenFuture (talk) 05:19, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Regardless, it seems perfectly clear that the "philosopher of mind" category is original research and needs to be removed. Or do you actually have a reliable source calling Leary a philosopher of mind? Since Msnicki restored the category, I would direct that question to her also. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:13, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The article is being disruptively edited by IP 76.188.207.154, who is restoring the "philosophers of mind" category despite agreement being reached on the talk page to remove it, and appears to have violated WP:3RR in the process. I have requested the article be semi-protected. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:55, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Msnicki made a comment that she then removed, but is still visible here. In answer to the question how 76.188.207.154 is more disruptive than me, the IP reverted multiple users (including another IP), which I did not, violated WP:3RR, which I did not, refused to discuss the issue on the talk page or try to reach agreement with other users, which I did not, and made edits without explanations in edit summaries, which I also did not do. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:45, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

There's a reason I removed my post, seen in my edit comment.[2] I don't like dealing with you. Kindly leave me out of this. Msnicki (talk) 05:43, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

In future, please do not remove your own talk page comments. It is unhelpful and confusing to other editors. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:25, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:REDACT, I am allowed to entirely remove my own comment if I change my mind and no one has yet replied. My post and my self-revert were one minute apart. It's no different than editing one's own comment if no one has yet replied, which we all (including you) do all the time. And you can count on me doing it again someday. I have no intention of changing my behavior just because you don't like it. Msnicki (talk) 09:59, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you are certainly allowed to remove your own comments, however it is generally not constructive to do that, and I would politely ask that you not do so. Meanwhile, the "philosophers of mind" category has been restored by another IP address, and I have had to remove it once more, as being unsupported. It may unfortunately be necessary to have long-term semi-protection if such disruptive IP editing continues. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm politely telling you that you're still not getting what you want. And if you have a disagreement with another editor, kindly work it out with them. It's not my problem. Msnicki (talk) 01:42, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Philosopher redux

Skyerise and User:FreeKnowledgeCreator have each deleted [3], [4] and the sources and the claim that Leary was a philosopher once today. 2605:a000:1200:600f:bdc2:282a:6c52:766b and I have each restored once. [5], [6]. I find any return to edit-warring this claim to be quite troubling. It's possible Skyerise was not aware of the discussion at WP:ORN#Sources to support claim that Timothy Leary was a philosopher, where I believe we reached consensus allowing the claim, but FKC participated in that discussion and simply has to know what happened there. I find his revert to be a return the WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior I thought we had put to rest. It's unpleasant, unhelpful and unnecessary and should stop. Msnicki (talk) 07:04, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Really. Well, I find your behavior - notably restoring the claim that Timothy Leary is a "philosopher of mind", in the total absence of any reliable source calling him one - to be "unhelpful." Specifically, it is POV pushing, in violation of WP:NPOV. I've no intention of immediately reverting your latest edit; I agree that is best to solve disputes through discussion. I am not clear why you believe that there is a consensus for your preferred version of the article, however. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:08, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I am willing to remove the philosopher of mind category and have done so. That's unimportant to me and I agree you continued to object on that point. I didn't notice that was part of what was being deleted. I did notice the entire claim of being a philosopher plus the supporting sources were being removed. Msnicki (talk) 07:15, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

The summary by Msnicki above (my side is wonderful and your side is edit warring) helps explain why this silly issue has dragged on for so long. There is no engagement with what editors on the "edit warring" side have said. To repeat the core issue, there are lots of sources mentioning philosopher in connection with lots of people, however an encyclopedic biography should not use language that would mislead a reader—however Leary may be described in colloquial language, he was not a philosopher in a formal sense. Johnuniq (talk) 07:18, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Most of the evidence and the discussion is at WP:ORN and you were there, too, and then you quit commenting. I think it was fair to conclude you were done. If you'd like to reopen the discussion, I think that's the place. Msnicki (talk) 07:22, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Yet again there is mention of anything but the underlying issue. There is no engagement. Johnuniq (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

You were there, you stated your opinion (but without any sources, other evidence or guidelines-based arguments to support it), I and others disagreed and then you quit participating two weeks ago. Msnicki (talk) 07:56, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Leary was not a philosopher, did not claim to be one, and no reliable sources say he was. All we have are a scattering of uses of the term "philosopher," in the sense of someone who has an opinion about something, which could equally be applied to anyone who was not brain-dead. TFD (talk) 09:47, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

As per usual, your mode of debating is to repeatedly assert something already proven to be wrong. What do you think you will achieve with that? --OpenFuture (talk) 09:50, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Please provide a substantive response to TFD's assertion—is there any indication Leary claimed to be a philosopher? what source supports use of philosopher with more than the terms mentioned by TFD? Johnuniq (talk) 11:04, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

This has been discussed for weeks now, in several different forums, sources has been provided, they are still available higher up on this talk-page. Just scroll up. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:56, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Johnuniq. It is up to you to provide sources, and when you and others have provided sources you believe support your case, they have always been shown not to. It could be that you are working with a non-standard definition, and it would be helpful if you explained what you meant by the term. TFD (talk) 11:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources that support the claim has been provided. You repeating a false claim does not make it true. You are trying to bully through your POV by WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. I guess it works sometimes since you have been doing this for years and still do it, although it has in fact never worked on any of the articles I have encountered you. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:50, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I have just reviewed each of your twelve comments currently on this talk page. None of them advance an argument regarding the underlying issue with the possible exception of one which says "There is six listed at the top of this section" when asked for a specific source. There is no engagement with the issues, just debating tactics to wear down opponents. That is not satisfactory in a collaborative community. Is there any indication Leary claimed to be a philosopher? What source supports use of "philosopher" with more than the terms mentioned by TFD? Johnuniq (talk) 12:26, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

So you DID see the sources. Good. Can you stop pretending like there are no sources now?

"There is no engagement with the issues, just debating tactics to wear down opponents." - Exactly, can you TFD and FreeKnowledgeCreator perhaps stop behaving like that? Because yes, it is you three that is doing it. --OpenFuture (talk) 12:45, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

To your question, Johnuniq, "Is there any indication Leary claimed to be a philosopher?", the answer could not be more clearly yes. He testified[7] that was his occupation. This appears as source #6 in the protected edit request section above and in the article as citation #5. Msnicki (talk) 14:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I do not have a subscription. Can you please provide the quote so we can determine what he actually meant. TFD (talk) 15:24, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

The quote appears in both the section above and in the citation in the article. Here it is again: "Timothy Leary tried to testify in his own defense at his prison escape trial Thursday, but about the only statements that were kept in the record were his name and occupation — Timothy Francis Leary, philosopher." (You can request a free subscription to support your work here at WP:Newspapers.com.) Msnicki (talk) 15:31, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I have access to some newspapers already, although for various reasons I would never use newspapers as sources for events that occurred decades ago. Anyway, that is too little information to determine what Leary meant. I do not think he meant it literally. It could be for example an attempt to compare himself with Socrates, who was prosecuted for allegedly "corrupting the youth." In his escape note in 1970, he had written, "In the uniform of Athens you jailed Socrates./In the uniform of Rome you arrested Jesus Christ." Sort of like Kennedy saying he was a citizen of West Berlin. TFD (talk) 16:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Baseless wild speculation is not evidence. Other sources in the list also confirm that Leary regarded himself as a philosopher and that other WP:RS thought he was as well. At WP:ORN, I presented a table of over 1300 citations for his philosophical works found by Google Scholar that likely come primarily from philosophers in academia, given the way Scholar tabulates counts. I explained (with a source) that even in engineering, never mind philosophy, that's an impressive citation count that might have gotten him tenure anywhere in the country were it not for the his use of and views on drugs.

As for whether one might compare Leary to Socrates, that's an interesting question. One WP:RS says yes: "He was the Socrates of the Information Age because he was one of the few philosophers in our age who carried on the Socratic tradition of encouraging people to "think for themselves and question authority," his own authority included. Why? Because he saw himself as a philosopher whose job it was to teach people HOW to think, not WHAT to think."[8] I hope that was helpful. Msnicki (talk) 17:04, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Baseless wild speculation? Unfortunately without a secondary source analyzing what Leary meant, that's all we have, including your interpretation that we must take it literally. Incidentally, did Russell, wittgenstein, or Heidegger put down "philosopher" as their occupations when they dealt with authorities? I agree that both Leary and Socrates taught people to think for themselves and question authority, and both of them were penalized for that. But that is not philosophy. TFD (talk) 17:23, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

The question was if he described himself as a philosopher. The answer is yes. What you are doing now is coming with weak excuses to try to discredit the issue. That's WP:OR, and you are doing it to push your POV. But Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, and we have reliable sources. Case closed. --OpenFuture (talk) 17:43, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

The answer is actually no, because no reasonable reading of his self-description would interpret it literally. At least that is how anyone familiar with Leary's or Socrates' writing would see it. Unless you have a reliable secondary source that says otherwise. TFD (talk) 17:52, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Complete nonsense. And yes, we have reliable secondary sources that says otherwise, as you well know. --OpenFuture (talk) 17:54, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Can you provide the secondary source that interprets his self-description in his trial? TFD (talk) 17:57, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

So let's see if we can clarify this. Your theory is that under oath and up against an obviously relentless prosecutor who held him to only his name and occupation, successfully objecting to everything else he claimed, that the "only reasonable" interpretation was that when Leary testified that his occupation was philosopher, that he was scamming them with an obvious lie intended to compare his situation to the Death of Socrates. And to make this work, I'm guessing your theory is that he'd also been lying for years about this and fooled all these other sources that also report he thought he was a philosopher. Do you have a source reporting that in private, he ever confessed to being something else, a race car driver, perhaps?

You're welcome to any theory you like but to make it credible, it would help if you could offer even a crumb of evidence that it could possibly be true. Msnicki (talk) 18:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

You seriously ask for a secondary source that Timothy Leary when he said "philosopher" meant "philosopher"? This is beyond absurd. --OpenFuture (talk) 18:41, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm wondering how he thinks that could happen. Is he asking if The Amazing Kreskin or any other recognized mind-reader has weighed in on this? It's too bad they didn't have him hooked up to a polygraph at the time to verify he was telling the truth, though one suspects even that might not have been sufficient given the obvious unreliability of any contrary evidence when your mind is made up. Msnicki (talk) 18:59, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

This whole debate is beyond absurd. If it wasn't for Leary's and Huxley's advocation of psychedelic drugs we wouldn't even be having this debate.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 19:25, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I saw you reverted my delete of the philosophers of mind category. I don't disagree with you but the reason I was ready to concede this point is that I just don't think we have the sources to make the case. The best source I could find[9] makes the connection on the same page but nowhere near directly enough, i.e., in one clear sentence, to satisfy the skeptics or at least marginalize their arguments as unreasonable. Msnicki (talk) 19:45, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

The sources say Leary founded a philosophy of mind expansion. Philosophy of mind and philosophy of mind expansion are one and the same. I don't see why someone would need to find a source that says in exact words that Leary was a philosopher of mind to show that he was. All of the arguments against Leary and Huxley being philosophers seem to be nothing other than hair-splitting.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 21:05, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

You normally *do* need to find a source that says in exact words (for a reasonable value of exact words) that Leary was a philosopher of mind. Otherwise it's OR or SYN. That a philosopher of mind is mentioned on the same page as Leary doesn't count. However, I don't know if we possibly can be more lax with categories, so I'm not reverting it. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:15, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Just another example of how wikipedia puts administrative procedure above efficiency and common sense.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 21:23, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Philosophy of mind is not the philosophy of mind expansion. There is nothing for example in Ryle's The Concept of Mind (which is a classic in the philosophy of mind) about drugs and transcendental experience, it's about what we mean by mind and how Cartesian dualism is an error. Regarding Msnicki's source, is your argument that James, Huxley and Leary wrote about drugs, James was a philosopher, therefore Huxley and Leary were too? But James was a physician and psychologist and wrote about many things other than philosophy. His drug views are not even mentioned in his entry in the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.[10] Huxley and Leary do not even get articles. TFD (talk) 21:27, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

So, you don't believe drugs that reveal the mind to itself have anything to do with the philosophy of mind? Also, i'm curious as to what makes you think a person needs to be recognized by other philosophers or be employed as one to actually be a philosopher.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 22:10, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

No, wikipedias policies and the five pillars are no "administrative procedure". They are the necessary principles on which truth-gathering here relies on. --OpenFuture (talk) 22:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

IPs, It is not what I think, it is what experts in philsophy think and I know that because rather than Google search "Timothy Leary"+"philosophy" I have read academic textbooks and books and articles by Ryle, James, and all the major philosophers. To be considered a philosopher one must be recognized as such in the literature, or at least address the topics in the literature. Neither Huxley nor Leary did that or represented that they did. It is the same with every discipline. TFD (talk) 22:23, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

No, that is purely something of your own invention. Nobody requires engineers to recognize other engineers, or street sweepers to recognize other street sweeper or mathematicians to recognize other mathematicians. These things are required for academic NOTABILITY, but that's not what we are discussing here. --OpenFuture (talk) 22:40, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I think Msnicki for removing the philosophers of mind category. Unfortunately, 2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B is edit warring to restore the category, without even giving a reason for this in edit summaries. The article may need to be semi-protected. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:47, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Can you name anyone you think could be described as a mathematician in a Wikipedia article that no mathematician would describe as one? TFD (talk) 05:59, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

That's a No True Scotsman fallacy. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:48, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Are you saying that mathematicians, like Scotsmen, are not able to determine who is or is not a mathematician? You seem to be missing the point of the Scotsman story. Being a Scotsman does not make one an expert, it is a mere accident of birth. But being an expert, whether in mathematics or anything else, in fact does make one an expert in one's area of expertise. TFD (talk) 10:45, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

It's not a story, it's a fallacy.

Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."

Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

The point here is that you have decided that YOU and only YOU have the right to uniquely determine who is a philosopher and who is not, in blatant disregard of Wikipedia policies. Well, then this happens:

TFD: "No philosopher would call Leary a philosopher."

Someone else: <comes with an example>

TFD: "Ah yes, but no TRUE philosopher would call Leary a philosopher."

Obviously, Wikipedia has policies that are designed to stop that kind of nonsense. The relevant policy in this case is WP:RS. You know this. What we need to call Leary a philosopher is a reliable source that he is a philosopher. We have plenty. This case is closed, and you are only pretending to not WP:LISTEN and infinite WP:REHASH to push through through your biased POV in blatant disregard of policy.

I'm not going to waste more time on this discussion, you are just being disruptive. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:51, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

@OpenFuture:, the difference is that neither you nor I nor your Uncle Angus determine who is a philosopher, that is something that is determined by experts in philosophy. It's the same with mathematicians. TFD (talk) 18:48, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

No. Try again. I wrote the correct answer above. --OpenFuture (talk) 18:54, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Can you provide any example where I said that someone calling Leary a philosopher was not a true philosopher? TFD (talk) 09:21, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

So you admit that Leary is a philosopher. Good. Then we are done. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:50, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I though were not going to waste any more time with this discussion? TFD (talk) 14:29, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Correct. --OpenFuture (talk) 15:16, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Was "philosopher" an actual occupation (rather than just an avocation) of Timothy Leary and should he be described as such in the lead sentence and infobox?

Was "philosopher" an actual occupation (rather than just an avocation) of Timothy Leary and should he be described as such in the lead sentence and infobox? Skyerise (talk) 18:03, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Occupation: include in lead and infobox

Leary was a philosopher:

• Include in lead: Timothy Leary was a philosopher in every sense of the word. At least ten different reliable sources consider him a philosopher and he received over 1300 citations for his contributions to philosophy.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 18:50, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Include per WP:RS. --OpenFuture (talk) 18:56, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
• Include per WP:TRUTH.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:17, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• Include. Numerous WP:RS have been properly cited in the article, reporting that Leary was a philosopher. One even calls him the "Socrates of the information age".[11] He testified under oath that his occupation was philosopher.[12] Sources confirm that that really is what he thought he was.[13]. At WP:ORN, I presented a table[14] using data from Google Scholar showing that his top publications in philosophy had garnered over 1350 citations; in academia any over 1000 is impressive.[15] He had a PhD, the terminal degree cited as the necessary credential at Contemporary philosophy#Professionalization. For the last 36 years of his life, he doesn't appear to have held any other jobs and his only means of support appears to have been writing and speaking about his philosophy.[16] In every possible sense, the evidence is overwhelming that he really was a philosopher and that that really was his occupation. Msnicki (talk) 16:25, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
• Keep per WP:RS, as backed up by Msnicki's points. Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 12:18, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
• Include per WP:RS, WP:TRUTH. 76.188.207.154 (talk) 04:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Avocation: remove from lead and infobox

Leary was not a philosopher:

• Remove from lead: Leary was not a professional philosopher and to describe him as such is misleading to readers. Skyerise (talk) 18:07, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
• Exclude Sources that talk about Leary's philosophy use the term in a general sense in which anyone expressing an opinion is explaining his or her philosophy. That should not be confused with the subject of philosophy which has a body of literature and is a subject in universities. TFD (talk) 09:24, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source supporting your claim that those who call Leary a philosopher didn't mean that he was a real philosopher? --OpenFuture (talk) 11:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Could you please post your comments in the discussion section and leave this area free. BTW since you want to add the description, could you please define what you mean by a "real philosopher." I did not say he was not a real philosopher, I said he was not a philosopher. Similarly, he was not a ballerina. I would not say he was not a real ballerina. TFD (talk) 03:24, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Could you please read WP:PILLARS and start providing arguments and sources for your standpoints? --OpenFuture (talk) 04:57, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Already done. TFD (talk) 09:12, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

• Remove per TFD ----Snowded ^TALK 03:23, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
• Remove per TFD and Skyerise and discussion below. What is at dispute here seems to be two uses of the term 'philosophy', the everyday use and the academic subject. It seems irrelevant whether Leary was paid (per Van Gogh below), Van Gogh is clearly noted for his contribution to art, and was thus an artist. Leary is not even mentioned in relation to the field known as philosophy. Perhaps another term exists or should exist for someone known for their thoughts, but is misleading to use the term philosopher. Pincrete (talk) 13:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
• Remove I can also find sources given time referring to Deepak Chopra as a philosopher, that does not make him one. Verifiability not truth does not cover I believe, careless use of words in a colloquial manner. He is certainly not a philosopher, for instance if one goes over to philpapers you'll see that none of his works are included or cited, unlike others such as William Lane Craig for whom this argument has come up in the past. -- Ollyoxenfree (talk) 22:04, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Leary's book "Exo-Psychology" shows up on philpapers, files under "Philosophy of psychology". He is also being discussed in a paper on philosophy of religion, "Mysticism and Drugs" by J Kellenberger. I can't find one single realiable source that calls Deepak Chopra a philosopher. --OpenFuture (talk) 23:03, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

• Remove The word "philosopher" is often used very loosely and there is no reason to believe that colloquial mentions such as "activist philosopher" or "stand-up philosopher" have the same meaning as philosopher. It's great that Leary wanted people to "think for themselves and question authority", but that is not related to the encyclopedic meaning of philosophy. Relying on mentions in relation to mysticism and drugs is stretching the meaning of philosophy too far. Johnuniq (talk) 23:19, 24 April 2016(UTC)
• Remove. I can't see any reason to add this. He had no training in philosophy, had no jobs in philosophy, and didn't (that I know of) write any. If we're going to rely on RS calling him one (or implying it in some way), we should make sure those RS are philosophers themselves. SarahSV ^(talk) 01:56, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
• Remove. To be a philosopher you have to make a notable contribution in the subject of philosophy. I don't think academic credentials are required, otherwise we would have to rule out a number of perfectly good philosophers. The question is whether they engaged with the actual subject matter, as opposed to mysticism, meditation, taking too many class A drugs etc.Peter Damian (talk) 07:45, 25 April 2016 (UTC).
• Remove. In addition to the other comments, I think primary contributions were not philosophy, but rather guidelines on lifestyle. He advocated psychadelics as means of improved psychological well-being, not as part of any fundamental world-view. Given that his ideas were radical in his time, it is easy to confuse them as being a philosophy. But they are not one. Tale.Spin (talk) 22:42, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
• Remove. Until and unless adequate sources are provided. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

You suggested adding a source that you yourself said was reliable. Since when did you change your position on the matter?2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 19:55, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

I have not changed my position. The source was originally mentioned by another user, not by me, and I have not seen it. The source could potentially be acceptable if it were added, but that has not happened. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

@Skyerise: 1. Do you have sources that he was not a professional philosopher? 2. I can understand the argument that listing it as "occupation" in the info-box would require you to be a professional (although I disagree), but where is the policy that says that you have to be a professional for it to be mentioned in the lead? 3. So we can not describe John Kennedy Toole as a Novelist? He didn't make a dime from his books, as he died before they were published. 4. What is this "academic standards" bit? Since when isn't reliable sources the relevant standard. Please point towards relevant policies or earelier RfCs, etc. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:02, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• A "professional philosopher", huh? So by this logic we could not describe Vincent van Gogh as an artist either. Can you see the problem with this logic? --John (talk) 19:05, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

  Oh, yeah, even better example. And there's tons of leading scientists etc in the 18th and 19th century who did it only as a hobby. It's a nonsense requirement. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:18, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I see no grounds, of any kind, for saying that someone's occupation is "philosopher" when they are not employed as a philosopher. Incidentally, I've just noticed that Msnicki claimed above that Leary was the editor of "Foucault and Philosophy"; the book was actually co-edited by a different person, Timothy O'Leary. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:48, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Good catch. I've struck that link above. Msnicki (talk) 02:48, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

@FreeKnowledgeCreator: Depends on how you define the words. In fact both "employment" and "occupation" are defined as "profession", which makes what you said now is pretty much a tautology: There is no grounds for saying that someones occupation is a philosopher unless their occupation is a philosopher. If you define "employment" as "having a salaried employment contract" then very few artists could be said to have the occupation of their line of artistry, as very few have a steady employment contract of any kind. That line of argumentation is patently absurd, so I hope that's not what you mean. That leaves your argument either patently absurd or tautological. You choose. Or better, stop this nonsense POV-pushing and accept WP:RS. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I do not think that being a philosopher is a necessarily a profession, any more than being an artist is one. But just as being an artist requires one to produce at least some artistic output, being a philosopher requires one to write about or expound on philosophy, which Leary never did. I think your confusion comes from the ambiguity of the term philosophy. It can be used to refer to a general view, for example the popular music group Mungo Jerry said, "Life's for livin' yeah, that's our philosophy." Investment firms have investment philosophies,[17] lawyers have client philosophies,[18] grocery stores have pricing philosophies.[19] But none of these sources speak about philsoophy as it is normally understood as a branch of knowledge.

The term artist is also used in a colloquial way which I am sure you would agree does not necessarily qualify one as an artist: piss artist, con artist, dole artist, artful argument, artistic license. If I were to say that calling Leary a philosopher was a complete work of fiction, it would not mean I was calling you a novelist, even if I found your views novel.

TFD (talk) 09:41, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:RS says otherwise. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:01, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Well as has been pointed out to you they do not. And just exclaiming WP:RS, WP:NOTRUESCOTSMAN, and various other references to policy, guidelines and essays, without pointing out the relevance to this conversation does not contribute constructively to the discussion. TFD (talk) 11:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

No, it has not been pointed out. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:44, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

TFD, your arguments are so absurd they don't even warrant a response. If you don't believe what Leary lectured and wrote about was philosophy, just what exactly do you think it was? Just the crazy ramblings of an acidhead? That just goes to show how little you know about Leary or his philosophy.2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 20:29, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Your arguments are absurd is a poor argument. Philosophy is a known subject, people have written about it since the pre-Socratics, textbooks have been written and it is taught at universities. Unfortunately you appear to have no familiarity with the subject, which is why you think that Leary is a philosopher. TFD (talk) 23:22, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

It would be helpful, TFD, if you could focus your arguments on the sources, other objective evidence and the guidelines. You're entitled to your personal opinions of Leary, philosophy and the other participants, but posting them is unhelpful. Msnicki (talk) 23:34, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Clearly, if you had any familiarity with the subject you would see that he was.2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 23:40, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Msnicki, it would be helpful if all editors took the time to read an introductory philosophy textbook before arguing who is or is not a philosopher. For philosophy of mind, I recommend Gilbert Ryle's The Concept of Mind. If you are worried about the tone of the discussion, I notice you make no comments to 2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B. TFD (talk) 01:23, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

I have no interest in arguing about who has read more books on philosophy, as it is irrelevent to the topic at hand and a waste of my time.2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 01:38, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, yes, he should not have responded. But here's my concern with your argument, TFD. You're the one with 33K edits, not him. You're the one who should know better. It also looks to me like he's responding more than instigating.

More important, he at least has offered some evidence-based arguments, e.g., citing the large number of sources reporting that Leary was a philosopher and Leary's citation count. By contrast, essentially every argument you've offered has been either purely your opinion, e.g., opining that philosophy is not a profession, or your opinion mixed with WP:OR, e.g., arguing that the situation here is somehow similar to pricing at a grocery store. I think your tone is unhelpful but I think your insistence on arguing your opinion rather than the sources, evidence or the guidelines is possibly even more unhelpful. My guess is if you could find some sources or something in the guidelines to support your opinions, all of us, including 2605, would much prefer to discuss them, not you. Msnicki (talk) 02:44, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Here is a link to dictionary definitions of philosophy. As you can see, it is meaningful to talk about the "philosophy Obama followed" or the "philosophy in the Republican Party." But neither use meets the main definition in Collins of "the academic discipline concerned with making explicit the nature and significance of ordinary and scientific beliefs and investigating the intelligibility of concepts by means of rational argument concerning their presuppositions, implications, and interrelationships; in particular, the rational investigation of the nature and structure of reality (metaphysics), the resources and limits of knowledge (epistemology), the principles and import of moral judgment (ethics), and the relationship between language and reality (semantics)." I think it is misleading to imply that Leary was a philosopher in that sense. He of course had a philosophy just as Obama, the Republicans and every other sentient being, but we do add it to every biography. TFD (talk) 03:11, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Pardon me, but this looks like still more of your personal opinion of Leary, not something for which you're able to cite sources or relevant guidelines in support. As pointed out by TonyTheTiger above, our standard is verifiabilty not truth. I appreciate that you believe you know the truth and that the rest of us are simply ignorant or stupid. But unfortunately for you, we have sources and you do not. Msnicki (talk) 03:24, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Again, words can have different meanings, and you would need to show that the sources meant philosopher as defined. The term "Indian" for example can refer to aboriginals from N. America or people from India. Editors should understand the difference and not confuse them. BTW what do you think your sources meant when they said Leary was a philsopher? Do you think that he was a philosopher as described in the Collins definition or do you think they meant he was a man with opinions? And can you please stop citing policies, guidelines and essays without explaining how they relate to the subject at hand. TFD (talk) 03:31, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

I think the onus is on you. Multiple sources say Leary was a philosopher and that he also thought he was, Leary testified that he was a philosopher by occupation, we have his citation count showing that his philosophical works were impactful, we have evidence that that's all he did the last 36 years of his life and that he had no other means of support. So I really think it's up to you to show that they're all using the term philosopher to mean something other than a philosopher as we understand the term. But so far, all you've offered is your opinion and tedious requests, e.g., for a secondary source to interpret (mind read?) what Leary really meant by his testimony.[20] Fundamentally, I think it's time to put up or shut up. Msnicki (talk) 03:52, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

TFD, please read WP:RS and WP:NOR. We do not argue who is and who is not a philosopher, because that would be original research. Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant. It it surprising that you after many years on Wikipedia do not know this. --OpenFuture (talk) 04:56, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

RS says, "Reliable sources must be strong enough to support the claim. A lightweight source may sometimes be acceptable for a lightweight claim, but never for an extraordinary claim." If a reasonable editor wanted to know if Leary was a philosopher, they would seek out in books about philosophy to see if he is mentioned. The sources provided show classic google-mining. One for example says, "Inside, musicians are serenading an Irish philosopher as he lies dying in bed among linens that depict cartoon rocket ships zooming over planets." [The Buffalo News] (Leary was actually an American.) Compare that with the article for Immanuel Kant: "a German philosopher who is considered the central figure of modern philosophy." That is sourced to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which obviously does not even mention Leary.[21] It is not that there was a mainstream conspiracy to ignore him, it is just that he did not write about the subject. And I can cite multiple philosophy textbooks asserting Kant was a philosopher, while you cannot cite even one Leary was. TFD (talk) 13:25, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

You are still using the notability requirements. They are still not valid. The sources are strong enough. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:27, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Silly example: Sharon Rider is a professor of philosophy at the University of Uppsala. Her profession is most decidedly "Philosopher". She is not mentioned by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Why not? Because she hasn't revolutionized the field. It's not a relevant test. Stop it with the WP:OR. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:35, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Let's first dispense with that silliness about the "Irish philosopher". Our own article reports that Leary was raised in an "Irish Catholic household". So when the Buffalo News[22] describes him as an Irish philosopher, it seems pretty likely they're referring to his Irish heritage. We can be even more sure that's what they meant by actually reading the article, where we'd discover the preceding sentence, "It's Sunday afternoon, St. Patrick's Day, and traditional Celtic music is wafting through the air outside a Benedict Canyon ranch home high above Beverly Hills." The only unreliable reporting is yours, falsely implying that the Buffalo News gets basic facts wrong and thus can't be trusted. And may I point out that you're railing against a source mentioned only here on the talk page, suggested by another editor, not me. Nowhere is it cited in article itself. This part of your argument could not be more wrong or more irrelevant.

Re: all this stuff about Kant, if anyone was claiming that Leary was as important as a philosopher as Kant, I would agree, that would be a very extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary sources. But no one is making that extraordinary claim. The claim is merely that he was a philosopher. The only extraordinary claim I see being advanced is yours, that if Leary wasn't as important as a philosopher as Kant, he wasn't a philosopher at all. And not only don't you have extraordinary sources for that extraordinary claim, you don't have any sources at all. All you have is your opinion. Msnicki (talk) 15:22, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Your argument is that Leary is not mentioned in the Stanford source because he is not well known? In fact, he is very well known. And while Sharon Rider may not be as well know as Leary, she has degrees in philosophy, is a professor of philosophy, has written peer-reviewed articles in philosophical journals and is cited in philosophy texts as an expert. None of that applies to Leary. As for the Irish angle, certainly in some senses one could call Leary Irish, just as one could call him a philosopher, but it would be misleading to change the lead from saying he "was an American psychologist" to saying he was an Irish psychologist. Nor would we change American to Irish in articles every March 17, because on St. Patrick's Day everyone is Irish. Generally we would only call people Irish if they were Irish nationals. TFD (talk) 15:58, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

That was absolutely positively not my argument and it doesn't appear to be OpenFuture's argument either and I'm pretty sure everyone else reading this knows that. You've made some silly arguments misrepresenting an otherwise irrelevant source and claiming that Leary is no Kant, therefore he's not a philosopher and you got called on them. If your best response is a straw man, I'd call that close to no useful response at all. I think you're done. Realistically, I know I'm done; I've stopped caring about your opinions because that's all they are. Msnicki (talk) 16:28, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

TFD, no, that's not my argument. Once again then: Yes, Sharon Rider is undoubtedly a philosopher. That was my point. I'm glad you agree. And here's the kicker: She is NOT mentioned in the Stanford Encyclopedia. Do you understand my point now? Being mentioned in the Standford Encyclopedia is not a relevant test for being a philosopher or not. So the fact that Leary is not mentioned is irrelevant. OK? Is this clearer now? Can you agree that this was a bad argument, so you won't use such nonsense arguments in the future? --OpenFuture (talk) 07:49, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:RSCONTEXT: "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content." Should be obvious that the most appropriate source for the statement that someone is a philosopher is a work by a philosopher or specifically dealing with philosophy, such as, for example, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy or something similar. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:59, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

"The most appropriate"? What does that mean? TFD tried to claim that because Leary was not mentioned, then he wasn't a philosopher. Is that the argument you are trying to make, despite the fact that I just proved it to be wrong? --OpenFuture (talk) 08:03, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Whatever do you think it means? It means, that such sources are the best sources to use, and should be used in preference to other sources. Should that be hard to understand? You might also want to consider WP:NEWSORG: "For information about academic topics, scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports. Many news organizations rely heavily on press releases from the organizations or journals involved. News reports may be acceptable depending on the context. Articles that deal in depth with specific studies, as a specialized article on science, are apt to be of more value than general articles that only tangentially deal with a topic." Philosophy is an academic topic. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:08, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

That is right. So if the theory about Leary is correct, we should have no problem in finding an academic source for your extraordinary claim, or even a news article that gives more than tangential reference to philosophy. TFD (talk) 09:17, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

That's a non sequitor. Just because A is better than B does not mean B is not good enough. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:17, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Ridiculous. At debate is not a scholarly issue of the sort contemplated by WP:NEWSORG. This is not an abstruse philosophical question of what new experiments involving transcranial magnetic stimulation tell us about Cartesian dualism, it a simple question of whether Leary was or was not a philosopher as the term is generally understood. Msnicki (talk) 09:43, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

"Whatever I think it means". OK. I think "generally better" does not mean "required" which is the argument you are making. And you are arguing for that a person being quoted by a philosopher means we can say the person is a philosopher. That is most decidedly not so. In the case of Sharon Rider she has been quoted by historians. That does not make her a historian. That is just yet another nonsense argument. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:15, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

@Msnicki: Sure, but generally understood where—in a pub or in an encyclopedia? The word "philosopher" means someone prone to pondering in the former, and someone who produces work published in works on philosophy in the latter. Johnuniq (talk) 10:21, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

No, it doesn't mean any of those things, ever. See Philosopher, [23]. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:00, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

OpenFuture, please don't place words in my mouth, or attribute to me views I have not expressed. "Whatever do you think it means?" is a rhetorical question, and does not imply that my words mean anything you choose to say they mean. Simply put, I meant that sources specifically about philosophy are the best sources to use for the claim that someone is a philosopher. I did not say they are required. You are in no position to tell me that that is my argument when it is not. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:16, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry for assuming that your entry into this discussion was in any way relevant. I will not do that mistake in the future. My apologies. --OpenFuture (talk) 05:18, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

@Pincrete: No, the term is not the conflict. The conflict is if we are to accept the existing reliable sources, or if we are going to do our own original research and redefine "philosopher" to mean something different than philosopher says it means only for the purpose of this particular article. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:13, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Are the RS you mention, the noted authorities on what is/is not 'philosophy'? The term IS the conflict here, we all recognise that 'philosphy' has an additional everyday usage but is it helpful to the reader to conflate the two? Pincrete (talk) 14:26, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

This is not about "additional everyday usage". You are also not a noted authority on what philosophy is. For a definition of philosopher, see Philosopher, [24]. There has repeatedly been claimed in this thread that philosopher has two definitions, one meaning "someone who thinks a lot" and the other being "noted academic within philosophy". Both those definitions are false, please stop claiming that there are two definitions. There is one definition, and we adhere to it. That definition does NOT require you to be published or have a reference in the Stanford encyclopedia of Philosophy. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:35, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Relevant quote: "In the information age, you don't teach philosophy as they did after feudalism. You perform it. If Aristotle were alive today he'd have a talk show." //Guess Who --OpenFuture (talk) 14:42, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

@Msnicki: I am replying to your comments included with your vote above. While it is true Learly had a PhD, it was in psychology not philosophy (although for historical reasons, PhD is short for "doctor of philosophy.") Also, while his writing has been cited in academic writing, he was writing about psychology not philosophy and was cited by psychologists. For example, the writing on the first page of the Google scholar search that has the highest number of citations is "Multilevel measurement of interpersonal behavior: A manual for the use of the interpersonal system of personality," published by the Psychological Consultation Service and is cited in psychology papers and texts.[25] Also, the search includes another writer, a cardiologist with the same name. TFD (talk) 01:22, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

In academia, it truly doesn't matter what your PhD was in. A PhD is a terminal degree, meaning if you have one, you are now considered "fully educated", so to speak. You're now expected to know how to research and add to knowledge on your own. After the PhD, many develop new interests. This is why you will so often see faculty in any given department with PhDs in another field.

On my own campus, we have a PhDs in atmospheric science and applied math teaching CS, PhDs in material science and biomedical engineering teaching EE, PhDs in material science, applied math and bioengineering teaching ME, PhDs in ecology and zoology teaching biology, etc. My campus is too small to have a philosophy department, but at our larger sister campus across the lake, there's a PhD in history teaching philosophy. A PhD is basically a checkbox in academia. If you have one, you're eligible for the tenure track, otherwise you're limited to the lecturer track. This is why, when you look at the faculty listings at a lot of schools, they often don't even say what they got their PhDs in. What actually matters is their competence.

Re: the "Multilevel measurement" paper, that is something Leary wrote while he was still working in psychology. I deliberately excluded it and all his other psychology papers from my citation count[26] for his philosophical works. As I explained at the time, I only counted his later works. Msnicki (talk) 03:01, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Some professors do not have doctorates and some have no degrees at all, it depends on the university. And of course some professors expand into other disciplines and there are writers with no degrees who publish peer-reviewed articles and academic books. But the point of the article you referenced is that most philsophers today have PhDs in philosophy. I do not see by the way any philsophical works in the Google scholar search. What are you referring to? TFD (talk) 03:54, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Students call all their instructors "professor" but if they don't have a PhD, it's virtually certain their actual title is lecturer or maybe senior or principal lecturer. It is truly rare for any university, certainly any mid or upper tier university, to appoint anyone to the tenured professor track without a PhD. And even to be a lecturer, you need at least a master's. If you don't have a PhD, the rule is you have to have a degree that's higher than whatever you teach. Bachelor's degree holders can teach associates (typically at a junior college), master's can teach bachelors, PhDs can teach anything.

The only exception I personally know of is Lynn Conway, who became a professor in EE at University of Michigan with only a master's, but she's an IEEE Fellow, widely recognized for work on the Mead & Conway revolution and the recipient of numerous awards. Without a PhD, the faculty code at most universities only allows appointments to lecturer track or, in some cases, as a "professor of practice", a misnomer since PoP's are not generally voting members of the faculty (unlike even lecturers.)

Re: those works by Leary which I counted as philosophy, please refer to the table I introduced at WP:ORN, seen here. (Same link as last time.) Msnicki (talk) 04:25, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

The first work you counted as philosophy is The psychedelic experience, which has 295 cites. It was co-authored with Ralph Metzner and Richard Alpert, who were both psychologists. Most of the cites are in psychology papers and I could not find any in philosophical journals in the first few pages. Here is an example of a full professor at a reputable university who had no post-secondary education. I admit it is rare but universities are at liberty to appoint whomever they want. Michael Harrington, who had an MA in English literature and a law degree was a distinguished professor of politics at Queen's College. Incidentally, where I studied as an undergraduate, professors were not called Professor, but Dr. or Mr. (I don't remember any women professors who did not have doctorates.) TFD (talk) 05:46, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Both of your examples involve individuals who originally received their appointments 40 to 50 years ago at universities outside the US. I've heard that 40 to 50 years ago it was possible to get a tenure track appointment without a PhD here in the US as well. Not anymore. Universities cannot appoint anyone they want, not here in the US, not if they want to maintain their accreditation. Msnicki (talk) 06:48, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Leary was in no sense a philosopher. Peter Damian (talk) 07:43, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually Queen's College is in New York City. The other example, Queen's University at Kingston, is of course outside the U.S. I would not assume that every single accredited university in the United States would never hire a professor who did not have a doctoral degree, but it is unusual. But the point is that the section "Professionalization" says that the requirement of a PhD in philosophy is what has professionalized the discipline, not the possession of a PhD, which was typical before the professionalization. Incidentally, the section also says, "While it remains common among the population at large for a person to have a set of religious, political or philosophical views that they consider their “philosophy”, these views are rarely informed or connected to the work being done in professional philosophy today." TFD (talk) 12:59, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Move to close RfC

As creator of the RfC, I plan to close it shortly. I will give another day for further discussion. Skyerise (talk) 04:13, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

I concede there are more !votes to exclude than include. But it's inappropriate to close your own RfC. Closes should be done by uninvolved editors. Msnicki (talk) 04:36, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Okay. I thought that was the process (maybe it used to be, I've been here for over ten years). But I reviewed it and you are right. So, I move to close the RfC and we can field objections here. I won't close it until there is a consensus. Or we can just wait for 30 days to be up. I expect that to just end up bolstering the 'exclude' position. The people !voting to 'exclude' are here from Wikiproject Philosophy. These are informed opinions, unlike the 'include' !votes. Skyerise (talk) 04:45, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

RfC's should generally run for 30 days and closed by an admin. In theory an admin should not just count votes, but look at the arguments, but that's not always the case. It saddens me to see that so many people blatantly ignores wikipedia policies in this case, but in the end, even though Leary clearly was a philosopher, he also obviously have not had any significant impact on philosophy, and it wasn't his main occupation, so the world isn't going to collapse just because this is left out. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:38, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

You can post a request at WP:AN for an administrator to close. OpenFuture, if Leary did write about philosophy of mind, can you provide an example where he differs from Ryle, or any other philosopher of mind? TFD (talk) 16:25, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

What relevance does your question have to the debate on whether or not to remove the word philosopher from Leary's article?2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 16:50, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

It is a reply to OpenFuture, ask them what relevance their point has. TFD (talk) 18:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Unlike your question, OpenFuture's statement is relevant to the discussion. You should be able to figure that out without me having to explain why. Next time try taking your questions to the philosopher of mind section of the talk page instead of asking them here.2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 18:39, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

OpenFuture said, "Leary clearly was a philosopher...." I asked OpenFuture to provide an example where Leary differed from Ryle or anyone else. I guess you think that it is relevant to say he was a philosopher without providing any evidence but irrelevant to ask for evidence. TFD (talk) 22:21, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. I request we let the discussion run the allotted 30 days before closing it. Clearly, this is has been a contentious issue, so it's worth getting it right. Personally, I would like the additional time to reconsider the arguments. I often change my !votes at AfDs and it's possible I should change my !vote this time. Most of those arguing against inclusion offer personal opinions ("he's just not a philosopher and that's all there is to it") and impossibly high bars ("he's no Kant!"). But there is one argument I would like more time to consider, namely, what is the standard for the definition.

Those opposing inclusion argue that if other recognized philosophers don't regard him and refer to him as a philosophy, he really isn't and they point, e.g., to his lack of inclusion in the Stanford encyclopedia. That's not an impossibly high bar but I still don't know if that's most appropriate. It would be helpful, e.g., to know what percentage of all full-time faculty in all philosophy departments in the US are included there and what percentage of the omissions are because, if we looked at them, we'd decide these people just really aren't philosophers. It would be helpful to have some data here but none has been offered.

What also troubles me with in this argument is the point OpenFuture has raised, which is that it seems to confuse the question of whether he was a philosopher with the question of whether he was good enough or successful enough at it to have become notable solely based on his work as a philosopher. I think all of us would likely concede that was the question, the answer is likely no. But that's not the question here. Notability is clearly established and he would sail through any AfD in a heartbeat as a WP:SNOW keep.

Here, the question is content: What do we report? Did he do what's described as what philosophers do, as described in our articles and he did he seem to meet all the criteria (e.g., the PhD required to be professional)? To me it looks like yes. But I totally concede he doesn't appear to have been very successful at it.

Finally, I was struck by Skyerise's remark, The people !voting to 'exclude' are here from Wikiproject Philosophy. These are informed opinions, unlike the 'include' !votes. I'm satisfied they're here out of personal interest, not because they've been canvassed, but it does raise the question whether other groups at WP might bring different opinions to the table. Perhaps the discussion should be more widely advertised. One thing I'm sure all of us have noticed the tension in many debates between those preferring a more scholarly or, perhaps, "encyclopedic" tone versus those a common language approach. I think it's worth the full 30 days to continue thinking about this. Msnicki (talk) 20:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Due to the controversy over Timothy Leary's advocation of LSD, and because Richard Nixon once called him "the most dangerous man in America"; he would have never became notable soley for his contribution to philosophy regardless of how good or successful of a philosopher he was. It is more likely that he will be remembered as an LSD guru who told people to think for themselves and to question authority. I personaly believe someone would have to be a pretty decent philosopher to be incarcerated or executed for their ideas. Relevant quote by Timothy Leary: Socrates said "divinity lies within". The religious leaders of Athens said "you can't say that, Socrates. The gods are in control. Who are you to say you have a self? How dare you think you can know? The gods determine. Sacrifice to the gods; obey the gods. "Socrates said "No. Look within." For that they gave Socrates the hemlock, because he dared to tell people,"Think for yourself. Question authority."2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Please see WP:TALK: "Talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject or an editor." FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:59, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

That's the pot calling the kettle black right there.2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 01:12, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Msnicki, it is not that Leary did not have the same status as Kant, it is that he did not write about the same subject. While as you say that is a personal opinion, since Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, one would expect that reliable sources are required which in this case would be texts about philosophy. I think though the problem arises from philosophy having several meanings. TFD (talk) 01:54, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

There is no way that all ten of the sources provided are only using the informal meaning of the word.2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 02:09, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Why is that? Is there a rule that if a word has an informal meaning, no more than nine sources will use it? TFD (talk) 02:18, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

If they were all using the informal meaning of the word they wouldn't specifically call him a philosopher, they would only refer to his opinion as his philosophy. I don't see how you could argue that every single cited source is simply misusing the term philosopher.2605:A000:1200:4020:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 02:34, 2 May 2016 (UTC)