Talk:Fascism

Fascism supports socialism

I hope the following is a good explanation of the change I'm going to make in the article.

It only opposes communism(marxism), the radical form of socialism. Socialism exists in various forms. Any system that implements redistribution is socialist as well. Redistribution is a violation of private property. Percentage of redistribution can be described as a percentage of socialism in the economic aspect. Welfare state is a part of fascism. Social solidarity is a key part of fascism. It's funny that the preface of this article says fascism is "Hostile to socialism" but national socialism(Nazism) is obviously a part of fascism.

Any ideology that wants to turn a group of people(class or nation) into one organism, one mass(but excluding and eliminating people who "are worse" and "don't belong" - Enemies of the revolution during Jacobins, Jews during Nazism, everyone too rich during communism) and kill individualism is going to implement socialism because it's the economic and social manifestation of such an ideology. The more you want to kill the natural inequalities that exist between men the more tyranny you need to accomplish that. In other words the more extreme socialism the more extreme tyranny. That's why National Socialism (Nazism) and Communism are the most evil systems mankind experienced and Communism was worse for it's own society. Italian Fascist didn't want to create absolute control and tyranny = they didn't create absolute equality = they didn't want absolute socialism = they officially opposed communism. Communists wanted absolute equality = they created absolute socialism = absolute tyranny and control. You can start both ways: Absolute tyranny leads to absolute equality = absolute socialism; Absolute socialism leads to absolute tyranny(because it needs it as explained before).

I think it's extremely important for all people around the world too understand this natural connection between socialism and tyranny. People aren't equal! Don't confuse equal justice under law with equality. Didn't Fyodor Dostoyevsky say that equality can only be achieved in slavery?

Note that socialism doesn't have to exclude and eliminate anyone. It doesn't have to physically eliminate anyone, it may use other forms of coercion what may seem to be much less evil but in fact it achieves the same results. A tyranny isn't better if it's less violent but takes away just as much Freedom. ~MR 01:26, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Just a note to say that WP is not a forum for discussing personal views of politics nor should article content be based on such analysis. Also, new threads/sections should usually be started at the bottom of the talk page. N-HH talk/edits 14:26, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

It is only an explanation of the change I made. I removed "Hostile to socialism". I see my change in the article was reverted without any attempt of discussion. Maybe some people are using their own definition of socialism. If we use the normal definition, socialism is a part of fascism. To show an example "public healthcare" is a totally socialist idea. ~MR15:15, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

"Without discussion"?! You probably ought to read the rest of this talk page, where there has been very lengthy discussion of this very point and where editor consensus and the evidence of mainstream reliable sources are quite clear. In any event, as I explained, the contentious removal or addition of article content should not be simply based on, explained through or justified by personal analysis. N-HH talk/edits 15:09, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm using the definition of socialism. You can read more about it in the wikipedia article. I don't see this clear evidence and consensus wasn't achieved. Some people are just using their own limited definitions. Furthermore, my arguments weren't used here before so you should address them before reverting. ~MR15:34, 28 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.3.13 (talk)

Thanks for the advice. However, I know plenty about these concepts already, as well as about how mainstream scholarship and political taxonomy treats them. I also know that the WP entry for socialism, despite your suggestion, does not include any mention of fascism as being a type of socialism. And I have dealt with your argument, such as it is. Finally, I think it's rather clear who's relying on "their own .. definitions". Finally finally, I'm not having the same discussion in two places. N-HH talk/edits 15:40, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

And the same WP article describes the exact things fascist were doing with economy as parts of socialism. Yes, it's clear who is using his own definitions. ~MR15:47, 28 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.3.13 (talk)

"Hitler had a mustache! Mother Theresa had a mustache! Mother Theresa is Hitler!." [1] This is what they call a "logical fallacy", Chief! --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 16:08, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Mother Theresa and Hitler can be both socialists and Mother Theresa doesn't have to be Hitler. Or are you trying to say that only full socialism called communism is socialism. You would be a new Marx then! MR16:20, 28 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.3.13 (talk)

I really think you need to watch the video I linked. I'll do it again, just to make sure. CLICK HERE-->[2]. I guarantee it's more relevant than anything you heard on the Rush Limbaugh Show this afternoon. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 16:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

You clearly don't know what socialism is... You seem to confuse socialism with communism, which are connected but not the same...... --TIAYN (talk) 17:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

MR, articles are based on reliable sources and present mainstream views, not conclusions that we draw from our understanding of fascism and our understanding of socialism. BTW you defined socialism as "[a]ny system that implements redistribution." That applies to all governments. TFD (talk) 15:54, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Not all governments historically and not all modern political parties with significant electorate. If you are wondering maintaining government, police or courts is not redistribution. I'm basing on mainstream definitions. I'm not trying to add my whole original comment to the article, only the word "socialism" in "Hostile to socialism" should be removed. If I'm nominally an owner of a factory but 100% or even 75% of my income is stolen and "redistributed" is it my private factory or social factory? MR16:08, 28 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.3.13 (talk)

• MR, please refer to WP:RS and WP:NOR. Is there something policy wise that can be pointed out to the IP regarding signing? What is the status regarding the signing "MR" and not registering an account? --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:17, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

MR, when a government takes money from taxpayers and redistributes it to government employees, it is redistribution. Note too that different taxpayers pay different amounts and some benefit from these services more than others. Of course other than in a mythical Peoples Republic of Libertaria, every government has gone beyond spending on the night watchman state. TFD (talk) 16:36, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Stealing money from the rich and giving them to the poor is redistribution. Protecting people from aggression isn't redistribution. It's quite obvious that the rich are going to be the object of the attack of the poor. Low linear tax is enough to maintain those functions of a state. There were night watchman states in the past. MR16:52, 28 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.3.13 (talk)

So when the government takes your money according to a tax system you support and give it to people you think deserve it, you do not see that as redistribution. BTW there has never been a night watchman state - that is a nostalgic fantasy. TFD (talk) 17:06, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Government redistribution existed before socialism... You Americans really need to learn the definition of what socialism really is. --TIAYN (talk) 17:16, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

The idea that "fascism" is a form of "Socialism" is a misreading of the relationship between the two, and a bad assumption based on the fact that "National Socialism" has the word "socialism" in it. Fascism is in fact "corporatism", or "third positionism", which was an attempt to solve the problems which motivated people to become Communists, except within the basic structure of capitalism. Socialism is defined as the attempt to move beyond class division, and fascism was clearly wedded to the idea of class divide, so they are by definition opposite. Saying Fascism is a form of Socialism is like saying Communism is a form of Capitalism because China has a Capitalist economy and a party with "communist" in the name.

The ideological assumptions of MR are obvious and outside of the scope of any article. Calling systems "evil" is kind of ridiculous for any encyclopedia. You obviously don't like communism but that's no reason to take your biases and implant them into wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.131.45.141 (talk) 09:36, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you; this confusion (fascism=socialism) is pretty wide-spread. We have here a good chance to clear that up.

In fact, I didn't see much reference to fascism as corporatism, which is one of Mussolini's definitions of fascism. Kortoso (talk) 16:42, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Fascists oppose socialism and socialists oppose fascism -- both in theory and in practice. This is well documented in history, and it continues to this day.Spylab (talk) 14:55, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Fascism is a variant of Socialism

a belief attributed to several such as, Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, Georges Valois, Pierre Andreu [3], and Thierry Maulnier. A brief summation of this can be found here: Neither Right Nor Left: Fascist Ideology in France, Zeev Sternhell ISBN0691006296, page 59 as well as in works by and about the above writers. I suggest we add this material to the lead and cite passages from each of the above in a new section. Darkstar1st (talk) 12:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

How many times are we going to have this discussion, and how many times is the community consensus to reach the logical conclusion that fascism is not a variant of socialism.... --TIAYN (talk) 13:35, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we need a FAQ like we have at Evolution? Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Zeev is one of the world's leading experts on Fascism and headed the Department of Political Science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, his work should be highly relevant to this article. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

And has been show in this discussion page several times, the majority of scholars say otherwise, but please quote him. --TIAYN (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you post a quote of the passage to which you are referring?

Obviously it will have to be assessed in accord with P:WEIGHT, and shouldn't go into the lead until its degree of relevance in the main body is determined, etc.

But before you go trying to tout that author as deserving more prominence than others, I suggest you do some more reading[4]

"A. James Gregor is indisputably the foremost authority on totalitarian philosophy and practice in the English-speaking world (at least). This magisterial book will add to that reputation: there are few scholars, if any, who could produce a work of such panoramic sweep. Further, Gregor makes the most imaginative linkages between ideas and phenomena that previously might have seemed unrelated. His provocative insights will attract much attention."—Anthony James Joes, Saint Joseph's University

"In this impressive work of scholarship A. James Gregor shows that the totalitarian twins, communism and fascism (my emphasis), are not at all what they claim to be—secular and atheistic ideologies—but thinly disguised 'political religions' arising from their common source in the militant intellectual milieu that Marxism engendered."—Carl Linden, Emeritus, The George Washington University

Note that even the blurb doesn't mention socialism in that context.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

No, this article will not say or suggest that fascism is a variant of socialism as commonly understood. Can you provide any evidence that the majority of mainstream scholarship (and, even, non-academic writing) takes such a position? At what point do you stop trying to push these kinds of minority and even near-fringe views and finally work out that WP pages are not written to the views of one or two individuals (whether such people are respected academics or fringe politicals) but to a neutral point of view and based on the predominant, mainstream account of things? N-HH talk/edits 16:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

The Sternhell book, which Darkstar1st quotes says, "Nor was fascism a "variety of Marxism," as claimed by A. James Gregor, a normally perspicacious scholar and the author of major works." TFD (talk) 16:36, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

That's interesting, in what context does Gregor state that fascism was a "variety of Marxism".

And from another angle, if fascism was not a variety of Marxism, then what would that mean with respect to its relationship to socialism?--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Since it is Darkstar1st's source, I will let him explain what Sternhell meant. In 1930s Germany, Marxism and socialism were synonymous. TFD (talk) 17:35, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

TDF, please review talk page guidelines, my opinion of what James meant is irrelevant. we are only to discuss whether the opinions of Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, Georges Valois, Pierre Andreu, and Thierry Maulnier should be included here, so far no one has made the case these people are fringe or unreliable sources. Darkstar1st (talk) 13:54, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if they are "fringe" or not, as a quick examination of the people you mentioned uncovers that they are (1) A novelist (Pierre Drieu La Rochelle); (2) A journalist (Georges Valois); (3) Another journalist (Pierre Andreu); and (4) A playwright (Thierry Maulnier). Some of them were Right-Wingers, and others Left-Wingers...but none of them is a "scholar" under any definition of the word. Their views are no more "RS" than something written by Sean Hannity or Keith Olbermann. Furthermore, your tactic" of saying, "I have found new sources (that nobody's ever heard of) that promote my fringe theories! If you don't contest them in the next 5 minutes...I will assume consensus and add it to the article!" is about the most dishonest thing I've seen on Wikipedia since QWORTY. --Bryon Morrigan -- Talk 14:08, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

And of course we know that some people, both critics of and sympathisers with fascism, see it as a form of socialism. Adding the names of a few relatively obscure Frenchmen – some of whom appear to have been Nazi collaborators – that one editor has managed to dig up to that list doesn't represent a revelation or tipping point (and did you even know who they were before you seized on them?) The key question is, as ever, do most people? How does mainstream serious academic and political analysis deal with fascism and categorise and describe it? And, as we all know, or should do, it does not describe it as a variant of socialism. End of story. As for whether we should note the views of any of these people directly, the page itself already has plenty of detail about the ferment of ideas in early to mid twentieth century Europe and the inter-relationship of various competing philosophies, which is muddied enough as it is unfortunately. N-HH talk/edits 14:20, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's interesting that you suggest a number of "writers" who would appear, after I clicked on the links you provided above, to have been no more than journalists and actual participants in movements, basically, as reliable sources to be considered on a par with the leading historians and political scientists in the English speaking world.

You have not made the case that any of those "writers" are reliable sources, and the unsupported assertion that they are without even providing links to sources and quotes of text for evaluation, for example, would seem questionable. Have I perhaps missed something?

Without such material, it's not even possible to evaluate whether any of their statements would be considered to meet the criteria required of secondary sources. If they did meet the criteria for RS as primary sources, for example, one would assume it to be in the capacity of a minority view. In all likelihood not meriting mention in the lead, even if mentioned in the main body somewhere.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:25, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)your comment is dishonest, i made no time constraints, demands, or assumptions, please strike. my suggested edit is not a "tactic", please review wp:battleground and wp:agf. concerning the sources: Pierre was a member of Parti Populaire Français, editor of L'Emancipation Nationale, and director of Nouvelle Revue Française, Georges was the founder of Cercle Proudhon(Proto-fascism) inspired by Georges Eugène Sorel. The source at the beginning of the section is one of the world's leading experts on fascism, all people knowledgeable of the subject have certainly heard of him. Darkstar1st (talk) 15:04, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

No one is disputing Sternhell as a serious source on fascism – although there is of course a debate about the weight his opinions would carry in any encyclopedic overview, not least because there are other experts, and even experts disagree – the debate is about the people he briefly mentions and whose names you have now seized on as if their individual views represent some kind of trump card. There are far more notable people, both scholars and partisan activists and writers like these people, whose views are not included in this article. And as for Sternhell, does he even say "fascism is a variant of socialism"? All I see on the page you point to is his brief, passing remark that Valois and Drieu "claimed" something like that. That seems like a sceptical observation, not a ringing endorsement. N-HH talk/edits 15:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Moreover, the book cited by Sternhell is specifically about France, which narrows the scope, and the page is not shown in the preview on googlebooks. Is it viewable elsewhere? If not, why not quote the passage, as has been requested before above.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:20, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Fascism is not a variant of socialism any more than it is a variant of capitalism, feudalism or any other type of system. Fascism combined aspects of various ideologies and systems, and fascism's characteristics have been well documented. Fascists oppose socialism, and socialists oppose fascism, in theory and in real life. Attempts at historical revisionism will never change that fact.Spylab (talk) 15:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Quick way to resolve the issue of fascism's relationship with socialism every time it arises

A quick question & answer that resolves all the rational components of the discussion:

First: Did fascism have influences from socialism? Yes.

Second: Was fascism socialist in the conventional definition of the term as involving support for social ownership of the means of production? No.

I suggest that these two Q & A above are a very quick way to resolve this issue when it arises, which it always does when a right-wing libertarian editor seeks to attempt to place fascism firmly on the political left and deny its right-wing stances based on a bizarre but sadly common right-libertarian interpretation of the left-right spectrum as being totalitarianism on the left and anarchism on the right, that cannot possibly explain for reactionary conservative absolutism.

It is impossible to ignore that there were socialist influences on fascism, but it is also impossible to ignore that fascists officially endorsed and accepted a large degree of private ownership of the means of production. Note that I am not promoting some conspiracy theory or revisionism that fascists are totally socialists, because I am a socialist who is saying this and there is widespread academic sources that show both socialist and non-socialist influences on fascism. Fascism in its original form of Italian Fascism sought to be its own beast, a new ideology altogether, it attacked everything that was outside of its worldview. Mussolini acknowledged that he synthesized components of various ideologies into Fascism, and some parts were very socialistic while others were not. Italian Fascists in public showed a Marxist-like contempt towards liberal bourgeois culture but claimed that they wanted class co-operation, in private Italian Fascists were actually even more aggravated with the bourgeoisie. Nazism a.k.a. National Socialism, was an ideology borne as a means to draw workers into German nationalism, it appealed in its ideological stances to socialist themes of the need for social justice for workers and of the injustice of economic liberalism and the problems of economic individualism, like Italian Fascists they held contempt to liberal bourgeois culture, but it did not advocate the conventional socialist prescription of social ownership of the means of production - instead it denounced such conventional descriptions as "Marxist" and and "not true socialism" and accepted private ownership of the means of production on a wide scale while claiming that state regulation and guidance of private ownership of the means of production was the best option along with state ownership of certain enterprises to promote the goals of the nation-state - i.e. KdF's manufacturing sector.--R-41 (talk) 17:32, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I can agree with that R-41.. However, I must clarify, being influenced by socialism is entirely different from being socialist.... --TIAYN (talk) 17:44, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

AFAICT from all the sources presented here, "Fascism" was intended to be a pragmatic form of absolute rule founded on irredentism and militarism, tied together by "national unity" - which meant that any economic, religious, or other tenets were pretty much side issues. A fascist regime could be Shinto, Catholic, or Atheist, or anything else. It could be pro-Asian, or pro-German,, or pro-Argentine "national identity". It could favour abortions, or outlaw them. It could allow sexual variants, or outlaw them. It could build churches, or tear them down. Any group which opposed the core tenets, was the "enemy" and this had nothing to do with anything other than the militarist, irredentist, national unity absolutism which tied pretty much all of them together. Which is not is discord with R-41's notes. Collect (talk) 17:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

The simple way to resolve this issue is simply to note that the vast majority of serious, mainstream political and terminological analysis does not include fascism as a variant, or type, of socialism. That is all that is needed. Argument and debate among WP editors based on personal analysis is unnecessary, original research when it comes to relying on it for article content and also open to counter-argument from those whose personal analysis differs (for example, someone could counter much of the above by saying, "Well, socialism doesn't have to mean the total elimination of private property", which is no less true than much of what has been posted above). N-HH talk/edits 17:59, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Socialism does not aim for the total elimination of private property and such a claim would be futile and easily dismissed, in theory and in practice it has accepted private property needed for personal use. What it has aimed for is social ownership of the means of production - that is expanding ownership of things like factories into a broader ownership that typically involves including workers who put in the labour, having direct controls in the means of production. Fascism never aimed for social ownership of the means of production, it publicly accepted widespread private ownership in that section of the economy. Yes sources are needed, but a means to augment that evidence by a quick and sharp response involvign the two Q&A above will help to resolve the issue quicker, and get past the typical statement "But the Nazis said they were socialist!" response through combination of such sources with such Q&A. --R-41 (talk) 18:07, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

As long as there are substantial numbers of people who hold fringe views as promoted by people like Glenn Beck, the issue will recur. People like that are not persuaded by arguments or discussion. TFD (talk) 18:30, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

That socialists oppose private property is false... From what I understand Marxism does not oppose private property, and they do not oppose capitalism either per say, but they consider capitalism to be a historical stage (just like feudalism) which will be eclipsed by another stage (which they call socialism) which will lead to the abolishment of private property... The problem is that Soviet-inspired Leninists called for jumping over the capitalist stage (which would entail an anti-private property and anti-capitalist view from the outset, and which went against Marx's original interpretation of development).. Second argument, our Chinese comrades do not oppose private property, and neither does the Cubans or the Vietnamese.. --TIAYN (talk) 18:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. [5] Darkstar1st (talk) 19:17, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

To TFD: I completely agree that to those people they will most likely not be persuaded by arguments or discussion, however if we quickly show them the academic sources that refute that and mention that fascism did not support social ownership of the means of production as the conventional conception of socialism supports, then we can shut down that discussion faster. Because if they go on ranting after having received a quick and to-the-point informed response, we can shut it down as WP:SOAPBOX. They can try to complain about shutting it down, but we gave them a quick factual response, and if they refuse to acknowledge that, their argument is irrational and can be ignored. I want see these silly issues to be resolved fast with no more improvised long lectures to these users that waste space and time. Let's work here to find a means to respond quick and decisively to these claims so that we can move on faster.--R-41 (talk) 19:25, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Rather does not mean oppose. The word rather is rather vague, it could mean that the socialist prefer public ownership... And prefer is totally different from oppose. --TIAYN (talk) 19:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Now then how about this as an idea of a swift formula response to these issues that can be easily copied-and-pasted:

• (1) Fascism is not socialist in the conventional description of support of social ownership of the means of production, it publicly supported widespread private ownership of the means of production. Nazis created a new definition of the kind of "socialism" they meant that is not the same as the conventional description of socialism and they rejected the conventional description of socialism.
• (2) Fascism did have influences from socialism and other ideologies, but that does not make it socialist in the conventional description of the term.
• (3) In response to any claims that state control over the economy automatically implies socialism, this is inaccurate, state control does not imply socialism, there are anarchist forms of socialism that involve no state control and there is state capitalism.
• (Note - do not copy-and-paste this but please review this: If the user does not accept these facts and continues to push the view that fascism is socialist, the discussion has become irrational, do not respond further, tag the discussion as a WP:SOAPBOX to close the discussion)

That's what I propose, one can simply copy and past these 3 points as a formula response in a user sandbox to have it available as a response. Then just paste in the 3 points, if the response by the user to these points is irrational, don't bother further responding and just mark it as soapbox and move on.--R-41 (talk) 20:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I would rather just say that no respected sources consider it socialism, and policy requires us to respect that. I do not see what FAQs should be devoted to refuting the arguments of extremists, whether it is here, or articles about global warming, evolution, Obama's birth and connection with Bill Ayers, aspartame, water fluoridation, 9/11, etc. TFD (talk) 20:45, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

You can't stereotype people like that as a means to refute them if you do not know if they are extremists who believe in such wild conspiracies. If they do from evidence, then yes ignore them for their irrationality BUT also tag the section as a soapbox to end further discussion. However if you jump to such conclusions with no evidence, that is literally prejudice. If you use such prejudice in your assumptions of them and you are wrong, they will use that against you, they will rightly report you for incivility on that, wasting your time, their time, and most importantly other people's time. This 3-point proposal I have made here is NOT an FAQ. This is a swift response that can be copied and pasted whenever this tangent shows up. Don't waste your time with personal improvised remarks if as you say you suspect they will not listen, just copy-and-paste this, the minute the person rejects these facts, the discussion has become irrational and it is clear that it is a soapbox - they have done themselves in, then tag it as a soapbox and close it down, and it's done. It ensures that other users' time won't be wasted with such soapboxes dragging on and that relevant content discussion will be the priority.--R-41 (talk) 20:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Gun control RFC

There is an ongoing RFC that may be of interest to editors in this article. Talk:Gun_control#RFC Gaijin42 (talk) 16:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

bulk removal of Baath party section

User bulk removed the section, I restored, he removed again. While the section (as all sections on every article) could be tweaked or improved, I do not see that this section was unsourced or problematic to the level that it should be completely removed. Thoughts? I note that the editor's contribution history deals extensively with the baath party, so their edits may be due more to their personal political affiliations or leanings or interests and less with wiki policy. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I have no political affiliation or leaning towards the Ba'ath, i assure you... The Ba'ath is a pan-Arab, Arab nationalist movement... The Ba'ath is inspired by Marxist thought and in general, thought from the enlightenment.... The movement has been accused of being fascist (just as some accuse Stalinism and Nazism to be nearly identical), but that's all.... --TIAYN (talk) 16:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the removal. Show me one reliable source that supports that outlandish claim?

The Baath party is generally considered from the perspective of its being a secularist movement as opposed to the theocratic norm in the Middle East.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:22, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

(The connection between Ba'athism and fascism is better explained at Ba'athism#Allegations of being fascist.) Cyprian Blamires has classified many ideologies as fascist, where other authors say only that they were influenced. Payne says that many modern regimes (Nasser, Gadhafi, Saddam Hussein, etc.) have fascist influence and characteristics. I think that this should be mentioned but there are several problems with Ba'athism in the article. First, it should express the opinions of authors as opinions, rather than facts. Second it should not give undue weight to any one ideology regime. Third, it should not say, "x says y" was fascist, then launch into a description of y without saying what that has to do with fascism. For example, Saddam Hussein's interest in ancient Babylon may be similar to Mussolini's and Hitler's interest in Aryan mythology and the Roman empire, but we would need to explain this.

The reference to Saddam Hussein is so poor that I think it should be removed. It is representative of the whole artile. Minor aspects of the subject receive a lot of attention, while major aspects are given little attention or ignored.

TFD (talk) 18:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree with most of the posts above. As noted in the previous section, there's a need to present some material about those later 20th century political movements and dictatorships that have attracted the fascist label from some commentators but we shouldn't focus on one or two to the exclusion of all others or, for any of them, suggest that the label is accurate to the extent that we did here. N-HH talk/edits 14:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm concur with N-HH here, we can state in this article (without any problem) that Ba'athism has been accused of being fascist, or have certain fascist features. But the text which was removed stated with near certainty that Ba'athism was fascist.. --TIAYN (talk) 17:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

fascism - "century of the right" issue, proof that the original Italian language Doctrine of Fascism did not say "century of the left"

The user named Web420 added material on the page that claims that English translators mistranslated the original Italian language La dottrina del fascismo, and that it should say "century of the left" based on several English language translations of the book. I looked up the Italian language statements, here are the results:

web search in Italian of ""un secolo di sinistra" dottrina fascismo" ("a century of the left" doctrine fascism) = 4 results and none of them mention the Doctrine of Fascism or the quote [6]

web search in Italian of ""un secolo di destra" dottrina fascismo" ("a century of the right" doctrine fascism) = 861,000 results, the second result on the search links to an Italian language book on Google Books that includes the Doctrine of Fascism in it and the quote saying "un secolo di destra" [7]. Here is the link to the book and the quote: [8]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.145.75.33 (talk) 02:33, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The first expression "un secolo di sinistra" does not exist in "La dottrina del Fascismo". About the second, here is the quote (from [9])

Ammesso che il sec. XIX sia stato il secolo del socialismo, del liberalismo, della democrazia, non è detto che anche il sec. XX debba essere il secolo del socialismo, del liberalismo, della democrazia. Le dottrine politiche passano, i popoli restano. Si può pensare che questo sia il secolo dell'autorità, un secolo di «destra», un secolo fascista; se il XIX fu il secolo dell'individuo (liberalismo significa individualismo), si può pensare che questo sia il secolo «collettivo» e quindi il secolo dello Stato.

Alex2006 (talk) 13:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it is clear the original text uses "right", but if reliable and notable sources have quoted it differently (perhaps intentionally misquoting for their own political or rhetorical ends), then we can certainly present their versions and attribute it to them, however we should make it clear that the original used the word "right". Indeed, the "anthology" ref cited does quote it as "left" [10] Gaijin42 (talk) 14:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Then it is a wrong translation. Because of that the source is not reliable, and has nothing to do in the article. Alex2006 (talk) 14:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

We cannot impeach otherwise assumed reliable sources with our own WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. The sources says what it says. Find a source specifically saying that it is a wrong translation, and we can include that as well. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I accept there's s slight OR issue here, but if it is clearly a mistranslation or error – which it appears to be, even though it appears to have some purchase (mostly in the usual libertarian echo-chamber but also in a couple of books) – then I agree there's no need to mention it here, unless there's some indication that the fact of mistranslation itself is relevant to the topic of Fascism. There are plenty of translations around that clearly refer to "right". It certainly shouldn't be here in the POV form currently presented, with phrasing like "And yet ... clearly stating" and with the stuff about Herbert Hoover. N-HH talk/edits 14:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

It appears that Soames was the official authorized translator of the work into english, making this not just a garden variety mistranslation. Either that version was authorized, or she snuck it in under their noses, or its a mistake that nobody noticed, but if that is the seminal translation - then that explains the origin of the "echo chamber" you discuss. This same topic was apparently discussed in this article previously [11], but does not appear to have resolution. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with N-HH, except that here is no OR here, but only the capacity who someone has to read a document in the original language instead than in English. Here we are talking about a translation of an article, not about an its interpretation. And we are interested in the though of Mussolini, not of Jane Comesichiamalei :-) (in that case the wrong translation would have been for sure important). I want to remember (another OR for sure :-)), that when he entered in the Camera for the first time, he sat at the upper right corner, and asked by Grandi (who wanted to sit at the extreme left) about the reason answered "Da qui posso guardare in faccia i miei nemici". Alex2006 (talk) 15:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Editors are permitted to use foreign language sources and translate them. If some editors doubt whether destra means right, we can ask at the translation desk. Also, we could ask if someone has an original copy of Soames' translation to see if she translated "destra" as left. Incidentally, presenting theories based on mistranslations or transcription errors is original research. TFD (talk) 16:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Fascism as a form of democracy

The section Fascism#Fascism as a form of tyranny is entirely about the theory that fascism could be a form of democracy, which is based primarily on a statement by the fascist theorist Gentile who, after explaining what was wrong with democracy said fascists are the real democrats. This theory is rarely mentioned and most writers dismiss it. The statement attributed to Laqueur was actually taken from an article by another author in a book edited by Laqueur. Because WP:WEIGHT does not support inclusion, I will remove it. A link to the section can be found here. TFD (talk) 03:49, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that you are attempting to impose your POV on what is found in RS, and that is in contravention to policy. You cannot remove reliably sourced material because you think it is mistaken, you can only introduce other RS that address the same subject matter in response, etc.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 06:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

NPOV says, "means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Since this theory is rarely mentioned, even in comprehensive textbooks and is not, even according to the sources used, generally accepted, it lacks weight. Where one is more likely to find it is in books like the National Review's Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn's Leftism Revisited: From de Sade and Marx to Hitler and Pol Pot (Regnery Publishing, 1990, p. 311): "The weakness of democracy, the Mother of Leftism, should be of deep concern....The Jacobins, even back then, wanted to "make the world safe for democracy"; our century has had its fill of their disciples." (Although Von Kuehnelt-Leddihn makes no distinction between socialism, national socialism and American liberalism.) TFD (talk) 07:18, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, several writers are quoted in the section, including those providing third-party commentary on Gentile. The page should arguably have something on the "democracy" issue and its relation of fascism (in both the sense of the liberal democracy they generally despised and any esoteric higher undemocratic democracy they might have claimed to be introducing). In my view, the more fundamental problem is the way this whole section is structured under the bizarre title of "Criticism of fascism" and then divided into various random sub-themes including this one. N-HH talk/edits 10:01, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Two authors are mentioned as supporting the view of fascism as "authoritarian democracy": Dylan J. Riley and Juan Linz. There are however thousands of books that have been written about fascism. Th point is this theory is generally ignored. Kallis' Fascism Reader for example that included essays from leading experts does not mention the theory. That is the problem with this article. Instead of outlining the main aspects of fascism as seen in most sources, it is filled with lengthy descriptions of aspects ignored by most scholars. TFD (talk) 17:19, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Are any of these three (Gentile, Riley or Linz) actually notable? --Orange Mike | Talk 18:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Riley is a fairly recent writer and therefore is not yet a notable writer on Fascism. As Stanley G. Payne, one of the world's foremost experts on fascism, for example, wrote, "The most controversial aspect [of Riley's book] will be its definition of Fascism, which he calls an 'authoritarian democracy', using the latter term in a distinctive manner that is not as clearly defined as it might be....The thrust of his argument is that democracy is a broader concept and practice than the classic liberal democracy of the West....It is doubtful that this definition will gain much acceptance."[12] Payne praises the book for other aspects. Juan Linz is a notable writer on totalitarianism, although his brief mention of "authoritarian democracy" has not been picked up by other writers. Even Riley seemed to be unaware of it. Gentile was Mussolini's ghostwriter, and the whole issue is how to interpret the single mention he made of "authoritarian democracy" in his extensive writings.

"In rejecting democracy Fascism rejects the absurd conventional lie of political equalitarianism, the habit of collective irresponsibility, the myth of felicity and indefinite progress. But if democracy be understood as meaning a regime in which the masses are not driven back to the margin of the State, and then the writer of these pages has already defined Fascism as an organized, centralized, authoritarian democracy." (The Theory of Fascism.)

Here is a link to Anthony Arblaster's discussion of the section in his book Democracy.

Notice that Fascism#Definitions does not even mention any of these definitions. (The Gentile mentioned in this section btw is a different writer.)

TFD (talk) 19:17, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but the issue is less whether there is any serious support for the validity of the concept of "authoritarian democracy" and more about whether it is a significant part of fascist theory, and one that is noted by third-party opinion, at least to the extent of it being worth mentioning briefly in any encyclopedic overview. That may well not be the case but the section as is also notes Antony Arblaster (who I am not really aware of) and Walter Laqueur at least commenting on it. Including it is not to validate the idea but simply to say "this is what fascism said and this is what others said about what fascism said". If anything, the fact that Payne enters into the debate, albeit briefly and in terms of a critical response to another author's contention, is an argument in favour of inclusion, not exclusion. N-HH talk/edits 21:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

ps: the "World Fascism" encyclopedia, which provides a tertiary source overview itself and which is used a source elsewhere on this page, has a dedicated entry for "Democracy", where it asserts: "Fascists deny that they are against 'democracy' as such, only the liberal, individualist version of it". It then discusses the difference between populism and democracy, rallies and participation etc. N-HH talk/edits 21:49, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia of Fascism, Volume I is 750 pages and has an entry for democracy but none for "authoritarian democracy." No other article in the book mentions the concept. If we wanted to expand this article to hundreds of pages, then there would be an argument to present minor issues. Laqueuer btw does not comment on on the concept - that is a misattribution. Arblaster is actually a notable academic for his writings on liberalism and democracy. All he says is "Yet even Mussolini, or his ghost-writer Gentile, paid lip-service to the term by defining Fascism in the next sentence as 'organized, centralized, authoritarian democracy.'"

As long as we provide extensive coverage to aspects of fascism that are generally ignored while neglecting to mention aspects that are extensively covered, this article will remain POV.

TFD (talk) 15:10, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't argue against losing any dedicated sub-section entitled "authoritarian democracy" – or indeed, as noted, the whole section here as currently structured – but that's not what the heading says currently or how the sub-topic is primarily defined here. It is a section looking at the broader relationship between fascism and democracy, which seems relevant and significant in some form at least, even if not this exact one. N-HH talk/edits 18:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

It's an awkwardly organized section, but the context is complicated.

The main point is that as a modern political system/ideology, its spokesmen have addressed democracy as well as every other concurrent political system/ideology. In this case, academics have examined and commented on those statements. The link to the article on "authoritarian democracy" is sufficient that a dedicated section is not needed here.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 19:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The main view is that fascism was anti-democratic but the section is mostly about how it was a form of democracy. Again, this whole article overemphasizes minor aspects of the topic and minimizes or ignores major ones. In this case we have a whole section about one sentence that has been largely ignored in writings on fascism. This is a backwards way of building an article - find some obscure opinion we happen to like and find sources for it. TFD (talk) 19:41, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

First section revision

Hi, Everyone,

I am new to the group. I visited this entry two years ago and was struck by the fact that it made Fascism seem indistinguishable from Socialism or Communism. It used terms like proletarian, classless society, etc that rightly go with Communism or Leninism.

In returning to it recently, I find some of the same problems.

There is an implicit bias that seems to want readers to see Fascism as a species of Socialism. Terms like "vanguard party" and "revolution" that are almost always used with Communism and Leninism are used, for example. There is also a strong emphasis on the State and statism here that is absent in other online encyclopedia entries on Fascism. That also is suggestive of bias. As is the opening characterization of Fascist ideology as derived from Socialism.

From a conservative libertarian capitalist perspective, Fascism and Socialism and Communism are of course alike if not identical. They use the State to control society. But from a scholarly historical perspective, there are significant differences, and the duty of an encyclopedia entry is to make those clear, not to confuse them.

The entry as it stands also is ahistorical. It should describe up front how Fascism was an historical event that arose in response to communism, economic egalitarianism, liberal democracy, cultural liberalism, "decadence," etc and that tried to create an authoritarian social order founded on hierarchy, inequality, and law and order.

I gather someone wants Fascism to fit under "nationalisms", but Fascism was not only nationalism. Look at the first two notes in the entry. They describe fascists as espousing nationalist ideas. But that does not make F "nationalism." It was a political movement and a form of social organization that was nationalist, authoritarain, xenophobic, etc. Its identity was not limited to "nationalism."

I suggest you all check the available online encyclopedias such as Cambridge, Blackwell, etc. I paste a couple of those below.

I post below a proposed revision of the opening section that makes it more in keeping with the other online encyclopedias and that makes it more historical. It also removes the tendentiousness--the implied libertarian conservative bias that sought to equate Fascism and Socialism or Communism.

I apologize for the fact that for the moment, certain references were removed in that proposed revision. They would go back in to a finalized revision.

I look forward to hearing what you think.

Thanks. (Encyclopedia entries follow after my signature and the proposed revision of section one follow them.)

Mryan1451 (talk) 14:34, 15 August 2013 (UTC)mryan1451

Cambridge:

Sometimes used as a word of abuse to refer to movements or individuals who are intolerant or authoritarian, fascism is certainly intolerant and authoritarian, but it is more than this. It is a movement that seeks to establish a dictatorship of the “right” (that is an ultra-conservative position that rejects liberalism and anything associated with the “left”). It targets communists, socialists, trade unionists, and liberals through banning their parties and their members, so that these groups cannot exercise their political, legal, or social rights. It is anti-liberal, regarding liberal values as a form of “decadence” and seeing them as opening the floodgates to socialist, communist, and egalitarian movements.

Blackwell:

Fascism is a totalitarian doctrine and a form of political system that was prevalent between the two world wars. The word was coined from the 'fasces', a bundle of rods that the magistrates of the Roman Empire used to chastise people. The Fascist movements saw themselves as punitive, purifying agents of a new national spirit that must redeem their nations from the decadence and defeatism into which they had sunk. Concerned to rejuvenate their nations, their doctrine presented an analysis of the reasons for national disaster and the principles by which national greatness was to be restored. They anticipated much conflict in this enterprise. Fascism was essentially a militant form of nationalism. War was glorious.

The predicament in which the nation found itself was the result of its attachment to liberalism, egalitarianism and democracy. These notions represented a rejection of the nation's true, old values for a false conversion to values which were internationalist. Democracy was a slow and unsatisfactory way of making decisions and it allowed much arguing with rulers. Moreover, its populist possibilities were encouraging socialists and Bolsheviks to take power. Hence it is not surprising that the major locations for the emergence of Fascism were Italy and Germany. Both countries had achieved nationhood in 1870; both had since then experienced a rather unsatisfactory form of parliamentary democracy; both felt shattered by their experiences in World War I (though Italy was on the side of the victors); and both felt threatened by the results of the Russian Revolution in 1917 with workers' and soldiers' councils, strikes and general disorder common in central Europe.

Fascist rule would reverse these tends. For disorder it would substitute Fascist discipline; for democratic delay it would substitute swift decisive action, Will rather than Reason would prevail; instead of division there would be national solidarity; in place of egalitarian values there would be a return to hierarchy and leadership. Fascism promised to resurrect the old values which had been discarded during the flirtation with democracy. But the instrument for this rejuvenation was not the old discredited aristocratic elite, but a new meritocratic elite with modern technological expertise. Consequently, Fascism could appeal to either conservatives or radicals, they could be united under its nationalistic appeal. This spirit would also permeate industrial relations. There could be no conflict and the Fascist state would supervene over worker and employer — the so-called Corporate State.

Bloomsbury:

Fascism is a term used to describe historically specific interwar (1919-45) European political movements and doctrines. Its derivation is from fasces, the ceremonial bundles of rods containing an axe with its head protuding, symbolizing the authority of the ancient Roman republic (which many Fascist governments wished to emulate). Fascist is also used more loosely to describe any form of right-wing authoritarian régime which is not explicitly socialist. In its most loose usage fascism is employed to denigrate people espousing either right-wing or left-wing views with which the speaker or writer disagrees.

Interwar European fascism is easiest to define by what its exponents opposed. They were anti-democratic, anti-Marxist, anti-liberal and anti-conservative: although they were prepared to make temporary alliances with their enemies, normally with conservatives. They rejected cultural and economic conservatism, including its Christian foundations, but also the internationalism, pacifism and materialism of liberals and the left. They invariably embraced an extremely chauvinistic form of nationalism, usually in a form which emphasized the racial or ethnic foundations of national identity, and committed them to the imperial aggrandisement of their nations and to militaristic doctrines and practices. They were generally in favour of totalitarianism: the total control of the polity, economy and society by a fascist party which would create a new national and secular culture, and indeed a new (or revived) people. Fascists were élitists, emphasizing the role of charismatic and authoritarian leaders: although they claimed that fascism represented the interests of all the nation and they mobilized mass political parties.

Proposed revision:

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ was a radical rightwing political movement and form of social organization characterized by nationalism, authoritarianism, xenophobia, and the use of state violence to attain political ends. It arose in the early 20th century in western Europe in response to the rise of social liberalism, communist revolution, and the perceived cultural decadence of European society. It sought to restore a social order founded on hierarchy, submission to the state, property inequality, and traditional rightwing values such as the church, the family, and law and order.

Fascism refers specifically to an Italian political movement (1927-1945), but the term is also used to characterize other rightwing political movements in Germany, Spain, and elsewhere during this period. Fascism is usually distinguished from other authoritarian political forms by the mass mobilization of the national community in accordance with the fascist principles of hierarchy, corporatism, and law and order. Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation and asserts that stronger nations have the right to obtain land and resources by displacing weaker nations.

Fascism sought to provide a solution to the divisions between classes within the nation by displacing attention to the conflict between nations and races. It advocates a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies. Fascism supports what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism. Fascist movements emphasize a belligerent, virulent form of nationalism (chauvinism) and a distrust of foreigners (xenophobia), the latter closely linked to the ethnocentrism of many fascist movements. The typical fascist state also embraced militarism, a belief in the rigors and virtues of military life as an individual and national ideal, meaning much of public life was organized along military lines and an emphasis put on uniforms, parades, and monumental architecture.

Influenced by national syndicalism, the first fascist movements emerged in Italy around World War I, combining elements of left-wing politics with more typically right-wing positions, in opposition to communism, socialism, liberal democracy and, in some cases, traditional right-wing conservatism. Although fascism is usually placed on the far right on the traditional left-right spectrum, fascists themselves and some commentators have argued that the description is inadequate. Following the Second World War, few parties openly describe themselves as fascist and the term is more usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The term neo-fascist or post-fascist is sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements respectively.