Talk:Battle of Karameh

What about the third view?

I had added to the original article on this subject: "Some scholars have expressed a third view, describing the events as "a conflict with limited military importance" which has since been blown up and exaggerated by both sides. W. Andrew Terrill (Winter 2001). ""The Political Mythology of the Battle of Karameh"". The Middle East Journal. Volume 55, Number 1. {{cite journal}}: |volume= has extra text (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |journal= (help)

I think this is a viewpoint as meritorious as saying that the Israelis or Palestinians "won" anything here. After all, it has been forty years since the battle, and nothing for which it was fought has been resolved, or shows any sign of immanent resolution. bd2412 T 23:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Where and how exactly do you suggest this be added to the article? -- Nudve (talk) 06:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

As to where, I would say it belongs in the "Aftermath" section. There are any number of points where it can be worked in without disrupting the flow of the article - which, itself, now seems to expand the importance of the battle to mythic proportions. bd2412 T 15:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it's possible. Also, since you have (at least one) source, do you think you can help with the issues raised below by Ynhockey, mostly concerning the details of the battle? -- Nudve (talk) 15:49, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Expanding the article

I'm starting a discussion here, which has partially been going on between Nudve and myself on talk, because what I'll raise now is not just between the two of us. I'm talking about improving the article potentially to GA status, which shouldn't be too difficult. However, many things are still missing, which exists in the sources already provided in the article! I suggest the following improvement (will make some of them myself as time allows):

1. Detailed breakdown of Israeli forces - right now we have a pretty clear idea of what the Israeli forces consisted of, especially from this source, but also from Pollack and Carta. I will probably do this one myself.
2. Much more detail about the battle - right now the section is stripped-down and takes up only a small part of the page, even though it's easily the most important section and should contain all of the details we can find (because they clearly don't belong in any other article). Especially problematic are the current 2 lines about Operation Asuta, which can be expanded into at least 2 paragraphs. Much info about this can be found in Carta (if anyone is interested, I could privately send a scan of the relevant page).
3. While taking all the information (especially about the aims and effects of the operation) from Israeli sources may violate WP:NPOV, taking facts about Israeli forces and battle positions certainly does not. Therefore, I suggest more digging into Israeli unit websites, many of which describe the battle and their side of it. For example, the informative page I linked to above on the Paratroopers site is not used even once in the army, which is a shame. If someone speaks Arabic, perhaps they can find Jordanian sources which have information about Jordanian forces, positions and commanders.
4. Organization - while it's just my opinion, I have a slight problem with the 'prelude' and 'the battle' sections. Certainly they could be organized better, perhaps joined into a large section with sub-sections for the preparations (prelude), Operation Inferno and Operation Asuta.

-- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

even treatment?

The article has a full section devoted to (and entitled) "Israeli command structure", but there's nothing about the Palestinians' or even the Jordanian army's. This seems one-sided; similar treatment should be afforded each side, and if it can't, there should be an explanation. If, for example, rigorous scholarly efforts have been unable to establish which Palestinian combatants were where and in what capacity, or the Jordanian army has never announced who the members of its local command hierarchy were, the article should say so. In the alternative, maybe naming all the lieutenants is unnecessary. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 18:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

This issue has been addressed by Ynhockey above. We are trying to find this kind of info, and any help would be appreciated. Cheers, -- Nudve (talk) 18:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Jordanian commander

The commander during the battle was not King Hussein but Mashhoor Haditha, I changed that. --Michael1408 06:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. However, do you a source saying he was ignoring Hussein's orders when he decided to attack? -- Nudve (talk) 06:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Aljazeera TV network's documentary.--Michael1408 19:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael1408 (talk • contribs)

I'm afraid the doesn't satisfy WP:V and WP:RS. Do you have anything citable? I've managed to verify Haditha with another source. -- Nudve (talk) 07:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You are right, i am trying to find a citable source --Michael1408 19:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael1408 (talk • contribs)

verification

the arabic article has a lot of different information backed by several cites including an interview with Mashhour haditha, the comander of the jordanian army. and the number of losses on each side is different acording to the citations.. and they are mostly from official military cites. the article in my opinion should be re-evaluated and many things should be added to it to insure that it is impartial —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.144.193 (talk) 08:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Since when is Jordan an Israeli protectorate?

Whywould Jordan let Israel invade without even an attempt to resist? I don't care so much about "assumed" vs. "hoped", but the army of a sovereign state doesn't "stay out of the fighting" when its territory is invaded. Not allowing the word "invade"/"invasion" seems rather WP:POV. Erik Warmelink (talk) 07:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The fact that Israel invaded Jordanian territory is quite obvious in the lead, and I don't see how it is implied that Jordan is an Israeli protectorate. If you insist, I don't mind changing "stay out of the fighting" to "ignore the invasion". -- Nudve (talk) 08:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

It isn't obvious from the lead, because the lead uses weasel words like "Israel Defense Forces" (my highlight, though I realise that it is customary on wikipedia to use that term). Erik Warmelink (talk) 19:18, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Israel Defense Forces (IDF) is not a weasel word or a custom, it is the name of the Israeli army. Are you OK with my suggestion? -- Nudve (talk) 05:26, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

It is the Israeli propaganda term, most countries have such a name for their army. For "defense forces" they kill far too many civilians, they destroy for too many houses. And again, Israel isn't unique in that.

"Ignore" is a bit weaker than "neglect", but OK. Erik Warmelink (talk) 13:17, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Casualty numbers and pro-Israeli bias.

Regarding the casualty numbers, sources stated are primarily Israeli, whereas Arab and foreign sources are not taken into account. The numbers issued by Jordanian officials differ widely from the ones posted. To add to that, Jordan had no planes during the battle as they had completely lost their air force during the 1967 war, so it is absurd that "2 planes" are stated to have been lost by Jordan under casualties. Furthermore the result of the battle was not Israeli military victory. According to many sources; the Battle of Karameh is celebrated each year as the first Arab victory over Israel's then "unbeatable" army; it is a source of pride for Jordanians and Palestinians, and thus if Israel also claims victory, the result must be both sides declared victory as I edited.

I think the speech by Haim Bar-Lev, the high-ranking Israeli military official, that was published by Haaretz newspaper on 31/3/1968, should be taken well into account, especially the following quotes:

“ "The Karameh operation was unique in nature and Israelis were not used to this kind of operation. In other words, all other military operations were decorated with victory for our forces; the Israelis were used to seeing their army gain victory in every operation, but Karameh was different because of the large number of casualties among our forces and other consequences of the battle like Jordanian forces taking a number of our tanks and vehicles, all of which were a major surprise to the Israeli community."

The high-ranking Israeli official, Haim Bar-Lev was also quoted by United Press International, saying that Israel lost three times the number of vehicles that were once lost during the June 67 war.

”

Please consider re-evaluation of the sources provided in the article, and thank you. :-) Ymousa (talk) 08:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less what the infobox says regarding victory. I also agree that no Jordanian aircraft were apparently lost, though not because of the reasoning above. The Jordanian Air Force did have combat aircraft at this time, the F-104 Starfighters, but there are simply no claims by the Israeli Air Force for this specific event. Neither side claims Jordanian losses.

Your casualty rates, however, have absolutely no place in here. Herzog says Israel lost 28 soldiers, so does the British Daily Telegraph, so does Mark Tessler, the IDF gives the number as 27, and multiple other reliable sources give numbers in that range as well. And yet you're suggesting that the number is ten times larger? 250? That's more than the number of soldiers killed on the first day of the Yom Kippur War! Sorry, no, but such an extraordinary claim from one foreign language offline source is simply not good enough.

I'm also reverting the addition of a quote supposedly said by Bar Lev - again, a problematic foreign language offline source is alone in quoting an Israeli paper quoting an Israeli general. You obviously took it from an Arabic source, which took it from a Hebrew source, and now we've got in English. Again, that is simply not good enough. Did you translate it? How can well tell how faithful the English product is to the Hebrew original? The criteria for WP:RS are not met here. The speech is interesting and may indeed have a place here, but not in its present form. Poliocretes (talk) 10:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Poliocretes (talk), thank you for your reply. With all your respect, sources vary widely then, here are a few Arab sources that are consistent with a much larger number of Israeli casualties, I would appreciate your evaluation and feedback.

Provided by the Middle East Record 1968 by Dishon p369:

• IDF casualties were about 200 killed and wounded; 42 tanks were destroyed (17 in Karameh and 25 near Allenby Bridge).
• At 9:45, the Jordanian army spokesman announced that three Israeli Mystere aircraft had been shot down, one near the Damiya Bridge, and two over Shuna.
• At a press conference in Amman on 23 March, King Hussein said that Jordan had lost 20 soldiers, 10 tanks, 10 other armoured vehicles and 10 guns.
• R. Amman said the dead included 6 officers, and that 65 soldiers, 12 of them officers, were wounded.
• The Times reporting from Amman, said that "neutral observers" believed the number of Jordanian killed to be 47. (R.Amman, 21 March-BBC,23 March; Sunday Times, 24 March Times; 26 March)
• At his press conference, King Hussein estimated IDF losses as 200 dead and wounded. He added that Israel had lost 5 aircraft, 45 tanks and 25 armoured vehicles. (NYT, Sunday Times, 24 March)
• Al fath report by the PLO went on to describe the fighting in Karama itself, in which 17 Israeli taks were destroyed and 400 Israeli troops killed or wounded. It said that the IDF deployed three armoured brigades and that 12,00 infantry troops had crossed the Jordan.
• [The latter report gave a figure for fidai losses higher than that of any Arab source and closer to the Israeli figures;] 124 dead; 91 al-Fath and 33 PLO Popular Liberation Forces.
• A "secret al-Fath report" that was published by a Lebanese paper, put the number of Israeli casualties at 400. In addition 17 IDF tanks were destroyed.

• Palestinian impasse: Arab guerrillas & international terror by Lester A. Sobel p28: 30 Arab commandos in Karameh were killed. Israeli forces suffered more than 200 casualties, including more than 100 killed. Jordanian forces destroyed 45 Israeli tanks and 50 other vehicles and downed 5 Israeli planes.
• Bridging the barrier: Israeli unilateral disengagement by Tami Jacoby p18: Israel sustained many casualties including the loss of six jet fighters and twelve armored tanks.

Also regarding the quote by Bar Lev, it is present in English in The Hashemite Arab Army1908-1979: an appreciation and analysis of military operations by Sayed Ali El-Edroos p278. Ymousa (talk) 13:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Extraordinary claims of wildly inflated casualty figures and other exaggerations demand reliable sources and require verifiability per WP:V. You have not demonstrated that your source (the meager ones that you choose to supply) meets these criteria. Moreover, your edits go against the body of nearly all mainstream sources. Worse still, you are deleting referenced and reliably sourced material. You have made no effort to seek consensus for your contentious edits. You have been reverted by two editors and a third editor has voiced similar concerns about your contentious edits[1]. You have also tried to Use an IP to circumvent 3R[2]. Your edits are filled with WP:OR, lack reliability per WP:RS and verifiability per WP:V.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Jiujitsuguy (talk), on what basis have you, once again in my opposition, reverted the edit made by Poliocretes at 10:14, 15 October 2010? Radical numbers that we disagree on have been removed as per your requests; but other edits, such as providing normal links to words, mere photographs that further express the conflict, and a logo of the PLO; are only normal edits neither subject to verification nor cited resources as you most bluntly claim. I am offended by your irresponsible actions, where normal debate is not something you are familiar to. The sources above are mainly Western citing Arab ones, so respectfully, on what reason are they not verifiable and accurate in your opinion, or are you, as it seems, practically shunning the Arab view out of context? Please try to edit individual information when it does not appeal to you, don't just undo the work of someone you disagree with. Seeing as your views are of the most radical ones, I would much like to hear Poliocretes thoughts on the quotes above, as he shows reasonable understanding of the subject and respects the aspects of debate. Thank you. Ymousa (talk) 16:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

You made multiple contentious, poorly sourced edits, filled with original research, covering multiple issues in one shot without so much as even discussing any of it. A better course of action would have been to start slowly, covering each issue in a manner that builds consensus.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:15, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, the caption that you placed under your uploaded photo was incorrect and should have read Al Karama Battle Aftermath 21 March 1968. You wrote Jordanian forces deployed during the battle which is an inaccurate description of the photo and that further lessens your credibility.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I've restored the photo with slightly modified caption and also restored the hyperlink of Jordanian intelligence to Dairat al-Mukhabarat al-Ammah--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I see no problem with the inclusion of inflated casualty figures so long as we can provide sources and properly explain their dubiousness. bd2412 T 19:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I have no objection to inclusion of inflated casualty figures if those figures are devoid of WP:OR, come from an RS and are verifiable per WP:V--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

bd2412, thank you for your comment. Regarding the result of the battle, i had previously changed it to: Both sides claim victory, Israeli withdrawal from Jordanian territory, and Destruction of the PLO camp in Karameh before JJG had changed it. Do you find any faulty assumptions in this result? Also the logo of the PLO should represent them in belligerents, I see no reason why it should be removed. To add to that, a minor detail; the Hashemite kingdom in the first paragraph does not necessarily reflect Jordan. I had also replaced this with the Hashemite Jordan before the revert by JJG. The sentence However, Jordan claims that conquering highland territories in Salt[1] and nearing the strategic capital, Amman[9][10], was also of Israel's intentions, in addition to disabling the PLO. was also removed for no apparent reason where sources state otherwise. Thanks. Ymousa (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:35, 15 October 2010 (UTC).

I think there was some availability issue with the PLO logo a while back. It was in the infobox and then removed ... Poliocretes (talk) 20:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Ymousa, I have no doubt that the claims were made, and you provide a fine source, but "Middle East Record 1968" is just that - a record. Published in 1973, it merely reports what was said about the subject. The numbers, which even contradict themselves, are outlandish. Claims abound, but there is a huge difference between claims made in the heat of battle or shortly afterwards and durable historical fact. 40 years after the event, the Israeli Ministry of Defence maintains a site containing a web page for each and every IDF fatality over the years. There are 29 people listed for March 21 1968, where's everyone else gone? Then there's the multitude of WP:RS. 250 Israeli casualties is a tenfold expansion on practically each and every modern work to discuss the subject, one written in the last 25 years. It's pure WP:FRINGE and should be treated as such.

As someone who otherwise tries hard to stay far & away from any article involving Palestine & Israel, I'd like to point out the following about the numbers of casualties in this battle. First, the Middle East Record 1968 cited above by Poliocrites cites sources which are usually considered reliable -- the BBC, New York Times, & King Hussein of Jordan. Dismissing them as unreliable without further examination only leads to further conflict. Second, the official public records of any military will, despite its best good faith intents, minimize its losses; no one wants to admit to having more soldier killed or wounded than need be. Thus the IDF, despite its care & skill in record-keeping, must be treated as a biased source. (And so is the Jordanian army, the Palestinian, & the US military.) Thirdly, the varying reports of casualties on both sides may have arisen over initial reports having been repeated, without subsequent corrections. That would explain where the BBC, the NYT, & King Hussein came up with the number of 200 total IDF casualties. Actually finding & reading the original news reports would help in explaining that figure. Fourthly, there is a lot of misinformation floating out there about all sorts of incidents with emotional connotations -- such as this battle. People who only know part of the story will come to this article, see one set of figures & assume that the article is in error & attempt to change it. Therefore, we need to not only include all points of view on the matter, but explain where these numbers came from. Those acting in good faith will see why one statistic has been favored over another, & not bother with repeating another edit war; as for the rest, the only solution for them no matter what we do is to ban them. But it's better to work with everyone editting in good faith. -- llywrch (talk) 21:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you llywrch and Poliocretes for your comments. Not to be pessimistic or anything, but after all this talk nothing has been done to improve the page's casualty statistics or the other issues that were mentioned above, most importantly the result of the battle; leaving the page still in an off beam pro-Israeli bias. I have refrained from editing the page myself due to the frustrating fact that Jiujitsuguy keeps reverting my works, thus I hope someone would further investigate the issues above and edit the article as they see appropriate. Ymousa (talk) 13:18, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Including all points of view

Would it be possible to start a new section devoted to reactions from various countries, specifically Jordan? The Battle of Karameh is a source of pride to Jordanians, and it is not seen as an Israeli victory but a Jordanian one in the kingdom. Numerous Jordanian sources and newspapers report the celebrations that occur on a yearly basis, and I'll be more than happy to provide some. I think this should be included in the article. Building up on the previous debate regarding bias of the article, I would also still love to see Arab casualty sources being used in the article. As was previously said, we need to not only include all points of view on the matter, but explain where these numbers came from. Much appreciation. Ymousa (talk) 12:38, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Changed result to reflect that both sides claim victory. Who won is entirely based on what you believe the actual objectives were, Israel claiming their objective was simply a raid and retalliation after which they fell back, Jordan claiming it was a full attack on Jordanian soil and was repulsed and Palestinians claiming that it was an attempt to eradicate the PLO and destroy the camp at Karamah, and in both of these it largely failed. So, each side claims victory and there are sources to back all sides up. I strongly urge no one on any side to take this out of neutrality and for all to just leave this result as it is, adding perhaps a further section on how each side claims victory or sees the battle.