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March 8

Sweden-Finland engineering connection: bridge, or tunnel?

File:Aland.interreg.gif

has anyone thought of building a tunnel between sweden aland and bridge(s) or tunnels between aland and finland? and the reason I ask here is because someone can read swedish or finish. Thx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alien from brixton (talk • contribs) 00:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's really a need for it. The region isn't particularly densely populated and could probably never support the costs. The shipping companies that run the cruise ship traffic between Finland and Sweden would probably also fight the suggestion tooth and nail since it would put them out of business.

I tried googling for this idea, but the only thing I came up with was this, which is a newsletter from EAP, the Swedish wing of the LaRouche movement. The newsletter refers to fanciful plans about "the Eurasian landbridges" with maglev trains from Stockholm to Hamburg, a tunnel or a bridge between Stockholm and Turku, and a tunnel (!) under Bering Strait between Russia and Alaska as way to shift economic focus further north. Considering how eccentric the EAP is in general, this is a pretty good indication that a Finland-Sweden bridge is never going to be built.

Peter ^Isotalo 07:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The Oresund Bridge connects Demark and Sweden. 80.0.101.168 (talk) 14:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed it does, but the distance that bridge/tunnel project spans is minimal compared to building a land connection between Sweden and Finland via Åland.

Peter ^Isotalo 08:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.mtry.fi/tiedotteet/Fixed%20transport%20connections%20across%20the%20Baltic%20to%20Sweden%20and%20Estonia%20without%20charts.pdf

Meaning and language origins of a word: vouzon

I have been reading some old English text during my researches and came across this "... was given a vouzon of ". I cannot find 'vouzon' in French, Latin or Old English dictionaries .. any ideas please? 77.68.126.54 (talk) 09:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you give the word in context? It could always be a typo. — kwami (talk) 10:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Nothing in the full text of OED, in that exact spelling. I am reminded of advowson, though:

The ‘patronage’ of an ecclesiastical office or religious house; the right of presentation to a benefice or living. (orig. The obligation to defend its rights or be its ‘advocate’; see advowee.)

And lo and behold, OED has this for vowson:

Forms: 3–4 voweson, 5–6 vouson (5 vourson, -sone, wouson), 6 vowson. [Aphetic f. avow(e)son advowson.] Advowson, patronage.

Those variant spellings are getting pretty close to what you're after.

Nothing beyond that in large French dictionaries (including specialised dictionaries of Old French and Middle French by Greimas.) Looks French, though. Would be, in fact. Advowson is from Old French avoeson, which means things like "protectorate, lordship".

But Kwami is right: we need context, if we're to help more.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 10:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

What makes something dramatic?

I read a review on the internet about a movie (I think) where the critic gave a list of things the movie did not have such as suspense, conflict, surprise, and several other things, and then said words to the effect "in other words, it is not dramatic". Unfortunately I have been unable to find the article again. Definitions of "dramatic" seem to just say that its related to drama, or describe it in terms of the effect it has one the audience, neither of which are very useful when you want to create a script or story that is dramatic. So what are the constituent parts of something that is dramatic please? I've got suspense, conflict, surprise, emotion - what other things could be included in this list please? 80.0.101.168 (talk) 14:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Timing and pacing, of course. However, while we can point out what makes something dramatic or not, what is or isn't dramatic cannot always be described or quantized, because what is or isn't dramatic is very subjective. --Kjoonlee 20:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Some time ago, in the wee hours of the night, I zapped through the TV channels to mentally switch off before hopping into bed. Puzzled, I stopped at a channel which showed a burning log in a fire place. The only sound was the occasional crackling of the wood and the soft hum of the flickering flames. After 15 minutes of increasing boredom I concluded that the plot was somewhat lacking in dramatic suspense and went for a snooze.

Months later, I stumbled across the same channel. This time, however, there were two lumps of wood burning and crackling.

Mesmerised, I observed the subtly evolving tragedy of burning passion consuming the protagonists.

The eternal dichotomy of life and death,

The raw violence of nature versus nurture,

The profound metaphor of the essence of human existence;

This movie clearly had it all.

Unfortunately I must have dozed off and missed the dramatic climax of this masterpiece of cinematography.

As Klonjee points out, drama and tragedy are subjective experiences. So, by the way, are comedy and sex, but not necessarily in this order. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there a specific name for a town celebrating its 190th anniversary?

TXKay (talk) 16:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's called the "Intenyearsitllbeourbicentennial". —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 20:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Not listed at anniversary, but you can try making up your own from the information there. Bovlb (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

It won't necessarily help you with the number 190 ... but this site explores your question in some detail: http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57195.html [1]. It seems that, perhaps, there is not a "name" for each and every numerical anniversary. I'd suspect that the "uninteresting" number 190 would fall in that category. Or, in other words, rather than having a fancy / official name, the word would be merely "190th anniversary". Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

By the way ... you might want to take this question over to the Math Help Desk (at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Mathematics) ... this is more "up their alley" ... and maybe math-type folk are more up to speed on the subtle nuances of terms for "odd" numbers such as 190. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

I don't know whether this is also common practice in English-speaking countries but here in the Netherlands a five-year period is also called a lustrum. As this is derived from the Roman culture, it is mainly used among universities and schools where they study Latin. So, if the ordinary people call something a 190th birthday, these institutions will call it the 38th lustrum (well in Dutch then). Maybe not as pretentious as all those Latin words for numbers, but a lot easier to use in order to show your dignity. 81.207.65.29 (talk) 20:05, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention your ability to divide 190 by 5 at the drop of a hat. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 21:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Bob O'Billovich

I just found out about this guy. How in the world did that surname come to be? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 20:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

He's also in the category Serbian-Americans which may give you an inkling. Nanonic (talk) 20:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Who knows? Could be some foreign name (the first thought that came to my mind was Slobidan Milosevic) that has been "Americanized" (rather, Irish-ized?) ... from Obelovic ... to Obillovich ... to O'Billovich. Surnames do evolve over time. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

If I recall correctly, the Serbian alphabet makes use of the acute accent. American Irish names like O'Reilly and O'Hanrahan have the apostrophe because it was too difficult to use the ó of the original Irish name. It could be the same with the Serbian name. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The suffix -vic or -ovic is a patronym in Slavic surnames, as in Vladimir Vladimorovich Putin or Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin. Belo or beo means white, as in Beograd (= white city), the capital of Serbia.

It may be that his family upon emigration to the USA anglicised their name. If, as stated avove, he is of Serbian descent than they may have tweaked their Cyrillic name to indicate they are sons and daughters of the "white city".

The origin of the Irish clan prefix O´... is anybody´s guess. As far as I know, accents are only used with sibilants in the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, as in Radovan Karadžić. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Another possible first element is "obilje": abundance. By the way, Cockatoo, I think you meant that "accents" are only used with sibilants in Gaj’s Latin alphabet, rather than the Cyrillic alphabet, which manages quite well without them. (There is also a modified d in that Latin alphabet). SaundersW (talk) 22:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Foreign surnames beginning with O are often subject to the vagaries of hibernification. A Lebanese friend of mine whose surname is Omari (presumably related to the name Omar, as in Omar Khayyam) is often sent letters addressed to Mr O'Mari. And here’s a discussion from a year ago about a person of German extraction, whose family name was originally Überrhein, a reference to the area above the Rhine River. It’s now become U’Brien, which looks like an illiterate way of spelling the Irish name O’Brien. I'm sure he and his family would frequently have their name "corrected" to O'Brien; and who knows, one day they might just give up the fight, capitulate, and become honorary Celts. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

(resetting indent) I have found this comment about changes to former Jugoslav names on immigration, specifically mentioning the case of "Obilovic" which became O'Bilovic. SaundersW (talk) 20:05, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

March 9

A few terms: passive subjectivism, taboo, shifting temporal frame

Hello,

I've searched far and wide in the universe of language on the internet, but I can't come up with definitions to these words. Could you help me?

• Passive subjectivism
• Taboo--the metalanguage concept
• Shifting temporal frame--grammatical sense

thx The Updater would like to talk to you! 01:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

for passive subjectivism i'd say, "the subconscience worldview that knowledge and value are dependent on and limited by your unique personal experiances"

Do you mean 'shifting temporal frame' in the grammatical sense? And what is the 'literary' sense of 'taboo' - sacred? — kwami (talk) 06:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I don't recall if I've ever heard the exact phrase "shifting temporal frame", but I can take a guess. I assume that it refers to the referents of a grammar with relative tense. In relative tense, past, present, and future (or whichever tenses the language has) of subordinate clauses are not defined in terms of now, the moment of speaking, but relative to the time under discussion, that is, relative to the tense of the main verb. So, for example, in English we say that "he decided that he would go yesterday" - 'will go' has to be in the past ('would go') because his departure is in the past. (In contrast, we'd say "he decided that he will go tomorrow." This is called 'absolute tense'.) If English had relative tense, we'd say "he decided that he will go yesterday", because at the time he made his decision, his departure was still in the future. That is, the tense of the first verb is relative to now, but for the second verb the temporal frame shifts to the time of that first verb.

It would be a lot easier if you gave the contexts of those phrases. — kwami (talk) 09:20, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

shaft in spanish

How do you say shaft in Spanish, specifically penis shaft? But other uses of the word also. And moreover how do you say stem, as in a flower? Carritotito (talk) 03:38, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

try an english-spanish dictionary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.218.26 (talk) 08:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Or you might try following interwiki links. Plant stem links to es:Tallo, and if you read es:Pene, you will find that 'tronco' is used. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

graciasCarritotito (talk) 21:25, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

phrase structure

please help me...... How to write five individual rules from the phrase structure below.

           T
AUX        M        (pm)	(perf)	(prog)
        -imper

and how to draw a tree diagram to account the phrase structure of this sentence:

The rowdy boys shouted when the teacher had left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Larince2829 (talk • contribs) 09:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to criticize your teacher, but the first problem sounds like it comes from a rather old version of transformational linguistics dating from the first half of the 1960's ("affix hopping" and such). AnonMoos (talk) 10:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

More than disapproval

I am struggling to find the single word that implies very great disapproval, especially as that disapproval which relates to a religious attitude. I suspect it begins with "in .... Any ideas please ?--Artjo (talk) 11:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

taboo, condemnation...that's all I have. User:WikiHaquinatorWould like to talk to you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.218.26 (talk) 11:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Add damnation, excommunication, censure, denunciation, anathema[tisation], proscription, and many others. But do you mean that the word itself begins with in-? [Placing on the] index, incrimination, inculpation, indictment, impeachment...? Take your pick. What's the need? What's the context?

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 11:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC).

Yes I believe that it does begin with 'In..." but I could be wrong. Context?, difficult to describe but I am an atheist and am invited to a family wedding between two parties of different races and religions. The word I want describes my feeling on the matter and will be my excuse for a reluctance to attend.--Artjo (talk) 12:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Show us the complete sentence you want to make, with the word itself missing. (Inquisition???)

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 12:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Intolerance is a word which describes disapproval of other races and religions, including the creed of fundamentalist atheists. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

So, do you want to say that you won't go to the wedding because you disapprove strongly of religion? Or because you disapprove of mixed marriages? SaundersW (talk) 19:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and Yes, in the case of MY family--Artjo (talk) 20:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I think I have got it, 'UNETHICAL'. I just knew it began with 'in' !! Thanks for all your thoughts and trouble.--Artjo (talk) 20:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Maybe that's the word you were searching for, but it doesn't really relate to the question you originally posed. You may consider it unethical or hypocritical for you to attend because you disapprove of mixed marriages, or marriage at all, and I'd support that principled stance (while not pretending to understand the reasons for your disapproval). But it's not true to say that unethical implies very great disapproval. What's ethical for one person may be unethical for another, because each person has their own unique set of principles and values. Just because a person does something that you disapprove of, that does not make their action "unethical". What the parties who are marrying are doing is probably ethical for them, otherwise why would they do it? If it's a free choice, they're the only ones who can make it. If you believe that they're being forced into an unwanted marriage by their parents or whatever, or there's some illegality involved, that's a different matter, and depending on the circumstances you might be duty bound to report it to the relevant authorities, not just choose to stay away. But if it's just a case of "mixed marriages are fine in general, but not in MY family", there's no principle involved there. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Mixed sex marriages ?

Disgusting !

--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

From what you said above, it looks more like you find it "inexcusable", indefensible, inappropriate (for you to be there), intolerable (as in the line from Ian Paisley: I will nutt tarh-leh-ray-ar-tett!). Wouldn't it be enough to say, you're busy? Julia Rossi (talk) 21:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

It would certainly lead to less drama, and sounds like very good advice. But I have a feeling that drama is perhaps the goal here. - Nunh-huh 03:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Drama is far from the goal, and I don't tell lies!--Artjo (talk) 12:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

"Hello, thanks for the invitation, but I will be unable to attend." HYENASTE 13:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Hyenaste beat me to it, but yes, if drama is "far from the goal" then one simply extends regrets with no further explanation. Attempting to shift the focus of the invitation to one's self is what is intolerable, unethical, and inexcusable, inappropriate . . . . --LarryMac | Talk 13:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

England and Wales

Is there an easier way to refer to the region consisting of England and Wales than "England and Wales"? 67.201.161.119 (talk) 15:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

In previous eras "England" often meant England and Wales, while "England proper" meant England without Wales, but some might now find that objectionable... AnonMoos (talk) 15:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't believe that there is. You may also get some useful responses on the Humanities reference desk. Carom (talk) 20:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

If you live in Scotland, of course, you can refer to it dismissively as "down south". Gwinva (talk) 20:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Although, now that I think about it, in the later period of the Roman occupation, the Romans referred to everything south of Hadrian's Wall (meaning England and Wales) as "Britannia" and everything north of the wall as "Caledonia." In more recent times, "Britannia" has taken on a broader meaning, so I wouldn't recommend using it to describe England and Wales in a modern setting. Carom (talk) 20:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that there is no better way than "England and Wales". When the news talks about new laws, etc they use the phrase "England and Wales", e.g. [2]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Q Chris (talk • contribs) 12:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, "The Southern United Kindom" may prove to be a bit too long. Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 02:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Words ending "LT"

Resolved

How can I come up with a list of words ending with "lt"?--86.146.241.92 (talk) 18:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Check http://www.morewords.com/ends-with/lt/. This gives a list of 144 entries. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

That's what I'm after - thanks!--86.146.241.92 (talk) 18:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of extinct languages

How do we know how Old English or Latin were pronounced? --Taraborn (talk) 20:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

As we don´t really know how the tetragrammaton was (or is) pronounced, linguists are mainly reverse engineering with the aid of many educated guesses. A few archaic dialects, which may not have changed much in x centuries are useful, as well.

Old English has the added advantage that it is spelled as it was pronounced.

Latin would seem more difficult as Classical Latin was a written language, whilst normal communication took place using vulgar Latin.

Try communicating for a full day in iambic pentameters and you may seriously consider the carrer of a Trappist monk quoting Wittgenstein´s tractatus. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

There are various works of scholarship on the pronunciation of dead languages, such as this one and Vox Latina by William Sidney Allen. They base their research on poetry, which indicates how one word would sound in relation to another, on transliterations into other languages, which show how the words sounded to foreigners, and on various guides to pronunciation written contemporaneously. SaundersW (talk) 22:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You're not quite right about Old English, Cockatoo. To the best of our knowledge, orthographic c and g, for two examples, represented multiple phonemes, depending on phonetic environment, whereas the two graphemes ð and þ were used indiscriminately to represent the same pair of phonemes. While not incorrect, it's also a bit misleading to say (to someone familiar with MnE spelling conventions) that words containing such digraphs as sc (= [ʃ]) and cg (= [dʒ]) were spelled as they were pronounced. Deor (talk) 02:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Also try reading [comparative method] to see how we can make good guesses as to how languages have changed in the past and work out how they might have been pronounced. Steewi (talk) 01:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Aren't spelling variants also used as clues to determine pronunciation? --213.114.217.80 (talk) 07:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[3] from Marathi language, alphabet and pronunciation

"Marathi first appeared in writing during the 11th century in the form of inscriptions on stones and copper plates. From the 13th century until the mid 20th century, it was written with the Modi alphabet. Since 1950 it has been written with the Devanāgarī alphabet."

What was the script Marathi first appeared in "...during the 11th century in the form of inscriptions on stones and copper plates."? Thanks.Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 22:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Probably Brahmi. The World's Writing Systems, p. 373, says "Brāhmī was used in all parts of India except the north-western regions ... by around 1000 C.E., the situation approximated the modern picture in which the Brāhmī-derived scripts have developed to the point that they are in effect independent scripts." --ColinFine (talk) 23:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

March 10

English-Arabic Translation

I need my name translated to Arabic for a project at school, i used google and got ريتشارد but i have a funny feeling that its wrong, thnxVagery (talk) 12:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to tell you my name is RichardVagery (talk) 13:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

First off, it's transliterating, not "translating" as such. ريتشارد isn't bad, except that the letter alif in the last syllable would probably mislead an Arabic speaker about the vowel quality and stress of the second syllable. I would prefer ريتشرد without alif, but Google turns up a lot more hits for ريتشارد , so maybe that's a quasi-standard transliteration... AnonMoos (talk) 14:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. The Arabic language itself doesn't have a single letter to transliterate the English "ch" affricate sound, but Persian does, so that in the Persian form of the Arabic alphabet, the spelling could be ریچرد / ریچارد -- AnonMoos (talk)

I would prefer ريتشرد without alif, True, though foreign names and loanwords usually use a more phonetic spelling, so alif and ya' end up being used like vowels. ريتشارد is by far the most common transliteration I've seen. — Zerida ☥ 02:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

What does Arabic Wikipedia do for various famous Richards? —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 16:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

See: [4]

--Goon Noot (talk) 22:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Question: What is the correct pronunciation of "kilometre"?

What is the correct pronounciation of "kilometre": "ki-loh-mee-tre" or "ki-lo-ma-ta"? 58.168.209.250 (talk) 02:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear anonymous questioner, may I ask you to give a title that alerts us to the nature of your question? After all, every section could be called "Question", couldn't it? I have adjusted it; I hope you don't mind.

It is not clear what the two pronunciations that you have in mind are. The word has four syllables. Many people stress it consistently with other -metre words, on the first syllable: CENTimetre, MILLimetre, KILometre. But many stress on the second syllable instead: kiLOmetre. Here in Australia, at least, this was debated extensively when we switched to the metric system, decades ago. Both pronunciations remain acceptable, and are recorded in major dictionaries.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 02:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Calling them "klicks" gets 'round the problem, though that usage is more common when discussing distance than speed. (It can also be spelled "klics", especially if you are a Robert Heinlein fan.) Thus "the border is 40 klicks from here", but not "the speed limit is 55 klicks per hour". The second-syllable stress is more common in my part of Canada, though I hear both and have likely used both myself. ៛ Bielle (talk) 03:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

For speed, I've heard "the speed limit is 55 klicks". — kwami (talk) 03:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, here we go. It's Ozzie: "You can't roll a smoke with one hand and scratch your ear with the other, at 90 clicks." — kwami (talk) 03:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

In junior high school (here in Australia) I was taught that the standard international pronunciation was "KIlometre", stress on the "Ki" (consistent with Kilogram, Kilolitre, Kilopascals etc), but that the common pronunciation was kiLOmetre, stress on the LOm. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The correct pronunciation depends on location. I'm not sure what "ki-loh-mee-tre" or "ki-lo-ma-ta" would sound like exactly, but using the IPA the two most common pronunciations I've seen are /kɪˈlɒmɪtər/ and /ˈkɪləˌmitər/. My dictionary says that the second one is the more American pronunciation. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If I'm interpreting the question correctly, you're asking which stress is correct - KILoMEtre or kiLOMetre. Both asre quite common, with the second one perhaps more so in the US (if the media is anything to go by). If you want to be pedantic about it, the first stress pattern is more correct, since Kilo- is a prefix to metre. If the base word was "Ometer", then saying "Kil-Ometer" would make sense, but since the base is metre the split should be before that "Kilo-Metre". And that requires the first stress pattern. Grutness...wha? 06:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, even if you're pedantic, it could be either kilómeter or kílométer. The Latin is metrum, from Greek μέτρον, both with a short vowel. When the penultimate syllable of Latinate words contains a short vowel followed by tr, either it or the preceding syllable is commonly stressed. However, I've never heard anyone say kílométer, only kílometer. That does not follow literary stress rules at all. I'd guess this due to analogy with other metric terms like kílogram, which does follow normal stress rules. So your choice is a literary pronunciation, kilómeter, or the leveled-out form kílometer. — kwami (talk) 06:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Well now, Kwami:

As you are no doubt aware, the position of the accent in the Greek itself is irrelevant (just so others will understand this). As an aside, we note that the modern Greek word for kilometre is χιλιόμετρον, with a stress on the third last syllable. And of course you are quite right: the Latin borrowing from Greek μέτρον preserves its short vowel ε, as e. You are also right that the "stress" is indeterminate with a short vowel on the penultimate followed by -tr- and the like. This gives freedom for that syllable to be "stressed", or the one before it – in verse, note. But kilometre is a modern compound, so there is not much value in the foregoing considerations. We build on the element metre, with its "false quantity": a "long" /ee/ sound instead of an etymologically correct short /e/. What to do with such an element? It is a case of ignotus per ignotius. One good clue is to see what stress-preserving modern Romance languages do, since they very often track "authentic" Latin pronunciations accurately, for what bearing that may have on our preference in English. Italian has chilometro stressed on the third last syllable, and Spanish agrees, with kilómetro. French is weakly stressed, and can give no guidance.

So there you are. Respect what you can of Latin practice, reconstructed or otherwise; or respect consistency with other -metre words in English. Hence the interminable disputes. OED records both pronunciations.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 07:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Good point, but isn't the length of the English vowel dependent on its environment, not the length of the Latin vowel? I mean, metrical has a short e, so we're not analysing it as a long vowel in metre because of the Latin. (Also, French has no lexical stress, not weak stress.) — kwami (talk) 07:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure the English vowel is dependent on its environment to some extent (and on the Latin source to some extent also, in many cases: especially where a learnèd practice is overlaid on a colloquial practice); and yes, that e changes depending on whether it occurs in metre, metrical, or whatever. But with kilometre, the environment can't determine anything much about that e, can it? Not until we settle on independent grounds where the stress will go! It's all rather circular.

As for French, weak shmeak lexical shmexical: you can determine nothing useful for the present purposes from its pronunciations.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 07:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Grutness -- your principle of retaining the stress of basic stems more or less unaltered in compound forms simply doesn't work in polysyllabic words borrowed into English from Greek and Latin; there's PHOtograph vs. phoTOGraphy etc. The pronunciation of kilometer which you consider to be "less correct" is almost exactly parallel to the universally-accepted pronunciation of "thermometer". AnonMoos (talk) 07:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

But for Grutness & Noetica's point, you do get things like "Spéed-o-meter" vs. "speedómeter". When both elements are morphemes, then you get this conflict between stress as a compound and stress as a unitary word. I think that might be what's going on with the metric terms.

And Noetica, as for French stress, I've seen your contributions here. I don't expect you to ever get anything wrong! — kwami (talk) 07:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Wrong, shmong... O, sorry. Thank you, kwami. I must say I am impressed with your competence in these matters. I just bluff – but don't tell anyone that.

Of course, English stress patterns are changing SO much. Weirdly. Sentence stress patterns, I mean. We should talk about that some time. No one seems to notice it!

But that's another conversation.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 09:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to warn against using Latin prosody tips in Romance languages for terms that have a greek etymology. Most rules of this kind could fail, especially the ones on stress, since Greek and Latin differ in this aspect. Any word with the suffix -logía in Spanish is an instance of this. Pallida  Mors 15:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Pallida. Yes, one does have to be circumspect about these things. Greek and Latin certainly do differ with regard to stress; and there has always been ambivalence among thoughtful moderns (except thoughtful modern Greeks, it seems) about how to stress Greek.

Nevertheless, where a word is taken from Greek into Latin in the very early centuries and thence into Romance, the canons of Latin pronunciation are pretty well followed in Romance stressings, aren't they? Whether they are or not, the Romance pronunciations are often the best available precedents for English stressings, when we look for a way to settle uncertainties. That said, kilometre remains poised on a knife-edge for the reasons given above.

I will continue to use the Italian pronunciation of Ulisse against those who unaccountably stress Ulysses on the first syllable!

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 20:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If only we could get the same people to say OO-ranos rather than you-RAIN-us (or even your-ANUS). Some pronunciations are absolutely in-EX-plickabull - such as this one itself. My mouth just can't handle it and I go off the rails; I prefer in-ex-PLICK-abull. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you're going to follow English literary stress rules, which are based on Latin even for Greek roots, it would have to be Úranus, since the a is short. (But it would be yoo-, not oo-, unless you're trying to make it sound Latin.)

I do wonder how we got pre-antepenultimate stress in words like inéxplicable. Noetica, do you think it might once have been inéxplicáble, following the Latin stress assignment, and that the second stress was later dropped, as stress often is from suffixes? — kwami (talk) 21:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

What an éxquisite question.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

To get back to the original question, both "kilómeter" and "kílomèter" are acceptable stress patterns for the word. The first has the force of history behind it, the second the force of analogy with other forms (only "céntimèter", never *"centímeter"). If we were to follow the example of the two meanings of "micrometer", then the unit of measurement would have to be "kílomèter" (like "mícromèter", which is one thousandth of a millimeter), while "kilómeter" would have to be a measuring device (as a "micrómeter" is). Fortunately, language is not bound by such restrictive logic. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 21:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Use miles, can't muck about with that.--Artjo (talk) 12:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Can't muck with that. 130.88.140.109 (talk) 12:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I personally am more likely to pronounce it kil-LOM-met-ter. Besides, pronouncing it like KIL-lo-mee-ter sounds much like "kill a metre". Also, I've seen 50 km/h and 60 km/h signs, but 55 km/h is probably very rare if it even exists (at least where I live [Canada]). Even when pronouncing it as LOM, people here tend to say -ter, not -ta. That reminds me of a book telling me to pronounce Cepheus "see-fierce". That's easy if you're British, but I know how it would be pronounced so I got the pronounciation. I once saw on TV: A-sses the window. It's A-SESS the window, you've put the wrong emPHAsis on the wrong syLLAble. In fact, when you put the emphasis on the LOM, it even sounds mostly fine if you said KLOM-met-ter. However, with kilogram we pronounce it KIL-o-gram, and with kilopascals it's KIL-o-pass-gals. We here spell a lot of thing with "re" rather than "er". The ones we use with "re" include metre and centre. Hope this helps. Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 01:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

On Classical Yi

I says:

Classic Yi is one of several such non-Chinese logographic scripts used by Tibeto-Burman languages of southwestern China, others being Naxi and Lisu.

Are they refering to the Fraser alphabet instead, regarding [5]? If not, is there like a whole list of all the Lisu logographs?Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 07:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

No, Fraser is not logographic. Neither, for that matter, is Naxi. I don't know what the old Lisu script may have been. — kwami (talk) 08:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

English: plural of "curriculum"?

what is the correctterm in the following sentence .

Community colleges are practical.They design curriculum that meets the needs of today's world.

a) curriculi that meet
b) curricula that meet
c) curriculums that meets
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.168.216 (talk) 10:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Well both Wiktionary and Wikipedia insist that curricula is the plural, though I seem to recall that the Latin root precludes this. Perhaps a Latin scholar can confirm or deny this? Google gives more than a million hits for each of curriculums and curricula, and very few for curriculi. Take your choice! dbfirs 10:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

(later) Yes, the Latin plural is curriculi but presumably, that doesn't carry over into English in this case? Why not avoid the controversy by noting that the word already includes a plural (courses) in its meaning, and simply say: "They design a curriculum that meets the needs ... dbfirs 10:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)"?

No no! Curriculi is not good Latin, and not good English. It's never right, as a plural form. The Latin plural is always curricula (and curriculi is a singular form, meaning of the curriculum). The English plural is traditionally the same: curricula; or sometimes these days curriculums. Usage varies.

In Latin, curriculum is a second declension neuter noun, like zillions of others that have found their way into English. They are like Greek neuter nouns ending in -on, like phenomenon and criterion. The original and traditional plural of these always ends in -a.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 10:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You tell 'em, Noetica. Use curricula and you may confuse the average joe, use curriculums and you annoy the scholar, but use curriculi and you piss everyone off, because it's just plain wrong. —Keenan Pepper 21:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above. "Curriculi" is simply a mistake. Either "curricula" or "curriculums" is acceptable in edited writing. A search of GoogleBooks reveals that "curriculums" gets a tolerable number of hits, but significantly less than "curricula". "Curriculi" gets a small number, including some that are actually the Latin genitive singular, and some that seem to just be making fun of people who say it. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 21:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

• Perhaps not a direct answer to your question ... but maybe it sounds better to say ... Community colleges are practical. Their curriculum is designed to meet the needs of today's world. Just a thought. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC))

• But that implies that all community colleges share a single curriculum, which I doubt is true. Daniel (‽) 21:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The OED attests curriculums back to 1850, and that without being interested in the form of the plural. — kwami (talk) 21:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

What I want to know is the proper plural of mongoose : mongeese? polygoose? — kwami (talk) 22:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd use either, except that if this is a homework question (or similar), and the options provided here are properly copied, the answer is going to be (b) because (c) also has "meets" instead of "meet". (regarding the curriculum, not the polygeeses) — maestrosync ^talk — 03:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this for real or a programmer's joke.

When I input the phrase "fuck off" into google translate and translate into Chinese (simplified or traditional) I get 他妈的小康 as the result. Translating that phrase back into English gives teh phrase "Transamerica well-off". Is this for real or is it some programmer's joke about America. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

There are no obvious characters about America there, which would be 米 (in Sino-Japanese) or 美 (in Sino-Korean). I think it's due to multiple bugs. --Kjoonlee 12:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

他妈的 means his mother's, and found in phrases such as 'RTFM'. But it is pronounced tāmāde, which has the T of trans and the M of ’Merica. (America is adapted as an M-initial word in Chinese and Sino-Xenic.) I wonder if it might have been used as a phonetic for a company name or something. I also found a blog where s.o. said that 尋找他媽的故事 (something about "the story of finding his mother" - sorry, I don't read Chinese) is a "very bad" translation of the movie Transamerica. — kwami (talk) 21:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

...so, why would "fuck" translate to 他媽的 translate to "Transamerica"? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Because (unless this is a practical joke) dictionaries are seldom symmetrical, as few of the words are actually equivalent. Now 他媽 literally means 'his mother', and 的 is the possessive. "His mother's" isn't something you would normally look up in a dictionary, because it isn't a single word, so anyone writing a dictionary would expect that you want some other meaning instead that is a word. But if you go in the other direction, 他媽的 may be the closest Chinese has to 'fucking'. — kwami (talk) 00:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

他妈的 (often written as TMD) is used in Chinese in many of the contexts that fuck is used in English (for example, when you stub your toe). That's the match up in the dictionary - fuck = 他妈的. If it's not a deliberate joke, it's a bizarre bug. Steewi (talk) 01:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

"Fuck" translates well into "他妈的"; "小康" could translate as "moderately well-off" - modest propserity in terms of a society. So I can see how "fuck off" could lead to that, as in "fuck off" --> "fuck well off" --> 他妈的小康.

"Fuck off" could probably translate better as "他妈的滚", or literally, "his mother's, roll away". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Software(s): what is the correct plural?

In formal academic writing, what is the plural form of the word "software"? Is it "softwares"? As well, should the word "webhost" be "web host" instead? Acceptable (talk) 19:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

For number one, "software" is a collective noun which means its plural is "software" despite what one sees all the time on various papers. Not sure about number two although I think both are acceptable (don't quote me on that). x42bn6 Talk Mess 20:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I can imagine situations where one might need to distinguish between software A and software B, and then perhaps say that "neither of those softwares does what software C does". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

We need to distinguish count nouns, mass nouns, and collective nouns:

• Count nouns are for whatever that can be counted and numbered:

two dogs, many planets

• Mass nouns are for whatever cannot be counted, but can (usually) be measured continuously:

much more water, some wheat, three tonnes of wheat

But not two waters, many wheats. Sure, nouns that look like mass nouns sometimes do have plurals, and sometimes numbers can be applied to them:

He took the waters at Lourdes, Two wheats were especially resistant.

The first is an interesting anomaly. The second has wheat meaning variety of wheat, and wheat is not a mass noun in such a use.

• Collective nouns are those like tribe and busload:

The tribe was [or were] preparing for the ceremony, A busload of tourists is [or are] arriving.

Software usually behaves much more like a standard mass noun than either a count noun or a collective noun, I'd say.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 21:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, software is always a mass noun in formal writing. You never say *a software, but a piece of software. Therefore there is no plural. (It doesn't have to make sense: consider a piece of furniture.) —Keenan Pepper 21:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Same would apply to all "wares", I think. Hardware. Ironware. Earthenware. Underware. (Oh, wait.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Getting back to "web host", it's a new word, and it hasn't settled down yet. The "host" part is very much alive and resists being joined to "web"; we can "host" a "web site" (770 Mghits) and be its "web host". The verb form muddies the issue, and keeps this one from going the way of "website" (946 Mghits) so quickly. If we can let Google be the arbiter of anything at all, it must be a word like this one:

"webhost" 3.4 Mghits

"web host" 8.24 Mghits

"webhosting" 42.6 Mghits

"web hosting" 123 Mghits

The preference for the two-word form is strong. --Milkbreath (talk) 01:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. "Softwares" is Engrish. So is "funs". That's part of the reason why so many non-English speakers find English much difficult [sic] so difficult. Hope this helps. Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 01:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

March 11

Mistranslation from Japanese

I'm watching an anime that's been translated from Japanese to English as both subtitles and dubbing. For the most part, the two agree with each other fairly well, but at one point, a line is translated in the subtitle as "Because I kissed you", and in the dubbing as "Because you kissed me" (I've got no idea what the original is; from the context, "because you kissed me" is more likely). Is this a reasonable translation mistake, or was someone being exceptionally careless? --67.185.172.158 (talk) 01:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Japanese generally uses directional verbs rather than pronouns, but much of the time the identities of participants need to be deduced from context. Without knowing the original, I can't say whether it's a careless mistake of grammar, or if they lost track of the context. — kwami (talk) 02:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

It would be useful to know the show, the episode number, and approximate location within the episode. Then we could give you an exact answer. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:46, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In Korean, "키스했으니까" ("kisseuhaetsseunikka") is literally "kissed_is_the_reason". Although I'm not sure, I suppose Japanese would be similar with "kiss-shitte-takara" or something like that. --Kjoonlee 08:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Except it would be "dakara". ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Like they say above, the literal translation probably has no pronouns in it, something like "because a kiss was done". (My guess would be kisu wo shita kara.) --Masamage ♫ 01:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Margarine, Margaret and soft/hard g

I spotted a typo the other day, where someone had written "margerine" for margarine. It's an understandable error, though. And I got to wondering, is there any other word in English where a g followed by an a is pronounced soft, as j? I know that some people pronounce it hard, as in the g in Margaret. Which is very defensible since both words derive from the same source, the Greek word for "pearl". So, how come we (generally) say marjarine but Margaret? -- JackofOz (talk) 05:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Is the former a corruption based on Margery? — kwami (talk) 06:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The word gaol has always irritated me, and I remember exactly where I encountered it for the first time. In my head I initially pronounced it "gowl", and only gradually made the connection. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

When the hydrogenated oil spread was a newer phenomenon, English ladies of a certain class used to refer to it down their noses with a hard g. It appears that even in Australia some people still regard the hard g as correct. SaundersW (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I can remember margarine being pronounced with a hard g in TV commercials (probably for Stork) in the early 1960s, but it seemed old-fashioned even then and I don't think it lasted long. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, gaol. Apparently some older Australian correctional establishments are "X Gaol". Most of the newer ones seem to be called "prison" or "facility" or "centre" or such. But in everyday usage, "jail" is by far the predominant spelling. By far. Funny, I also remember distinctly the first time I came across the word "gaol", as a child, and I asked my Mum what it meant. She told me, and said it was the American spelling of "jail". Yet, our article says the exact reverse - i.e. that the original spelling was "gaol" and we've only latterly adopted the American version "jail". Either my Mum or Wikipedia is wrong - and there's obviously no contest which version I favour. So, margarine and gaol. Any others? Oh, kwami, your "Margery" idea sounds plausible (it's also sometimes spelled Marjery). -- JackofOz (talk) 10:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In fact, Marjorie is far and away the most prevalent version, so it's highly unlikely to have influenced the spelling of margarine. Malcolm XIV (talk) 12:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Every source I've ever read said 'gaol' was a British variant spelling (including my Mac OS X pop-up dictionary). I have never seen it used in Canada or the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Davidson (talk • contribs) 11:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Checking with the article margarine derives from "margaric acid" and it mentions that it can be illegal to colour it in some places. What does un-coloured marge look like? Pearly at all? Julia Rossi (talk) 11:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, margarine was named and invented by a Frenchman. In French, the "g" is always hard. Rhinoracer (talk) 11:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope, "gentile" has the sound as in English "pleasure". --Kjoonlee 11:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess Rhinoracer means the g is always hard in margarine (in French). BTW, I presume you mean "gentil" or "gentille" AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

CMU Pronouncing Dictionary has the following entries:

ALLERGAN AE L ER JH AH N

BELGACOM B EH L JH AH K AA M

DIGAETANO D IH JH AH T AA N OW

DIGALAKIS D IH JH AH L AA K AH S

DUGAL D UW JH AH L

FOGAL F OW JH AH L

SCHMIDGALL SH M IH JH AH L

SIGAL S AY JH AH L

MARGARINE M AA R JH ER AH N

Most are names. But, CMU is not a particularly large list of words. OED online has the following:

Brit. /ˌmɑːdʒəˈriːn/, /ˌmɑːgəˈriːn/, U.S. /ˈmɑrdʒ(ə)rən/ Forms: 18- margarin, 18- margarine. [< French margarine MARGARIN n. (an application arising from a misconception about the chemical nature of the substance). Cf. OLEOMARGARINE n.

For the coinage in French note the following patents by A. M. Mège:

1869 in Descr. des Machines et Procédés: Brevets d'Invention (1884) 109 XIV. iii. 12/2 Le corps gras obtenu ci-dessus est composé, comme le beurre, de margarine, d'oléine et d'un peu d'huile odorante. 1874 in Descr. des Machines et Procédés: Brevets d'Invention (1884) 109 XIV. iii. 13/2 L'oléomargarine, nommé vulgairement margarine, sortant de la presse, a la même composition que le beurre.

N.E.D. (1905) gives as the pronunciation only (mā·ɹgărīn), with /-g-/; ; this pronunciation, which became rare in the second half of the 20th cent., prob. underlies the nickname Maggie Ann (see MAGGIE n. 4). N.E.D. (1902), however, s.v. Oleomargarine, notes that the latter is ‘Often mispronounced (-mā·ɹdʒărīn), as if spelt -margerine’ (i.e. with /-dʒ-/; ). The latter pronunciation is recorded in 1913 (with subordinate status) by H. Michaelis & D. Jones Phonetic Dict. Eng. Lang.; the shortened form marge, in which -ge also implies pronunciation with /-dʒ-/, is attested within ten years of this (see 1922 at MARGE n.²). The shift of stress, outside North American English, from the first to the final syllable is also first evidenced in the 1913 source.]

I would guess like kwami that the change from g > dʒ is due to analogy with Margery. Note its variant pronunciation and spelling:

Forms: ME margari, ME margary, ME margeri, ME margerie, ME margerye, ME margyrye, ME mariari, ME mariori, ME mariorie, ME mariory, ME marjory, ME-15 margery, 15 mariery; Sc. pre-17 margerie, pre-17 margorie, pre-17 marjory. [< Anglo-Norman and Middle French margerie (early 12th cent. in Old French), Middle French margarie (15th cent.) < classical Latin margarta MARGARITE n.¹

Commonly used as a female forename in England from the late 18th cent., at which time it was one of the most popular female forenames in use. In Middle English the g was variously pronounced /dʒ/; and /g/ (cf. the pet-forms Mag(ge), Meg(ge), Mog(ge), Mag(g)ot, Meg(g)ot, Mog(g)ot). For applications of the pet-forms of this name see MADGE n.¹, MAGGOT n.², MEG n.¹]

– ishwar  (speak) 13:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Since we are offering guesses, here is mine. Based on (too) many years of work in the private sector, I will guess that corporations marketing margarine conducted extensive market research and found that consumers were more likely to want to buy mar ja rin than mar ga rin with a hard g. The product already had an accepted spelling. What was needed was for appealing voices to pronounce the word mar ja rin in radio and TV advertising to entice housewives (since this transition happened mainly in the 1940s and 50s) to buy the product. That name would have stuck, since it was the pronunciation consumers preferred anyway. It is possible that they preferred it because it was similar to the pronunciation of Marjorie (though the mar ga rin is not so far off from the pronunciation of Margaret). It might also be that the softer pronunciation was more appealing because it subliminally suggested the pleasant softness and smoothness of butter at room temperature. Again, this is speculation on my part. By the way, my grandmother was born and raised in the United States, and she pronounced it with a hard g. She would have grown up before margarine was commercially available and probably came to know it before marketing campaigns imposed the soft g. Marco polo (talk) 16:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

More broadly, what other English words have soft g not followed by a front vowel (e,i,y)? I know of two: judgment (Fowler recommends judgement except in the legal sense) and digoxin (an extract of digitalis). —Tamfang (talk) 21:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

See the list from the CMU pronouncing dictionary above. Acknowledgment is another one like judgment. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 21:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating. Thanks, all. But I wonder if anyone, anywhere, actually pronounces margarine as "M AA R JH ER AH N". -een, -ine, sure, but -ahn? -- JackofOz (talk)

In the transcription system used by CMU, "AH" = /ʌ/ and /ə/. The usual American pronunciation is /ˈmɑrdʒərən/. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 08:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Arabic

How would I write this surname in arabic? BREMNER

Thanks if you can help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.41.211 (talk) 10:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

برمنر --Omidinist (talk) 11:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Please correct my text about an excerpt from book about apartheid!

Hello guys!

I have three texts which I would like to have corrected / improved by you.

Thanks in advance

Isn't there some kind of injunction here against getting your homework done for free? If not, maybe there oughta be ... +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Look up there at the top of this page, the bit about homework. If it's not homework, what is it for? I'll go so far as to say that it's not bad at all for a German, better than many native English speakers could do. "We never did anything forbidden" was a dead giveaway, though. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes OK, I confess that it's homework. You shouldn't do my homework but just corrrect it, though. How did you know that I'm German? Did you look up my IP or was it my text? -80.171.41.249 (talk) 09:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I ran WHOIS on your address, but, again, "We never did anything forbidden" was a dead giveaway (verboten is in the English dictionaries, did you know that?). More natural would be "We never did anything wrong." Also, "They just made our life to a living hell" is unidiomatic, in American English, anyway. It should be "They just made our life a living hell." As for the rest, I hesitate to pass judgement because I don't speak Seth Efrikan. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

1) Explain what is happening to the Prinsloo family under the apartheid laws.

The Prinsloo family described in this excerpt from “Ah, but your land is beautiful” by “Alan Paton”, published 1981, is an conventional family which suffers under the apartheid laws in South Africa.

is a conventional family. "an" is used before words that start with a vowel sound. --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The Prinsloos’ life seems to work quite well.

Prinsloo's --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Not so much, I think. The name is Prinsloo, the family is the Prinsloos, things belonging to the family are the Prinsloos'. Some would make it "Prinsloos's", believe it or not, on the principle "always add apostrophe ess to form the possessive". --Milkbreath (talk) 16:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Milkbreath is correct, and I can only plead lack of sleep. --LarryMac | Talk 17:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Lodewyk Prinsloo is married, has got children visiting school and works as a clerk-in-charge. They are an average and respectable family. But then it turns out, that Mr. Prinsloo is classified as a coloured person on his birth certificate.

"But then" can be eliminated from this sentence, and the comma after "out" is unnecessary. --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

He had labeled himself as a member of the white race, however. Therefore, two inspectors pay him a visit and tell him which consequences he has to face. Lodewyk tries to explain, that his most of his family was white and even his mother looked white even though she was classified as a coloured woman.

The comma after "explain" is unnecessary, there is an extraneous "his" in there. --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the inspectors just ignore what Lodewyk said and inform him that he is discharged as from today because a coloured man is not allowed to be a clerk-in-charge. Moreover, he has to move from his current town to a place where coloureds are allowed to live. Even his children have to change school because they are not allowed to visit a school for whites anymore.

"attend" is probably a better choice than "visit". --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Finally, the policemen tell him that he has three month to meet these requirements.

months. --LarryMac | Talk 15:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

So the well-ordered family life is totally mixed up in a few moments.

2) Analyse the effects that the situation has on the characters in this story.

These laws have quite huge consequences for most of the characters. The family will lose their social status and most whites will not want to have any contact with them, because they are considered coloured people. So they will probably lose most of their friends and the new situation might even cause problems within the family. It could be rather difficult for them to find new friends as they are caught between two stools: they look white but they are legally coloureds. So they could have problems with coloureds or blacks as well. Perhaps the whites will be afraid, that their relationship with the Prinsloos could do any harm to their reputation. Moreover, the family might impoverish, because Mr. Prinsloo will likely become unemployed. Even when he has found a new job, he will definitely earn much less. Simply because he is considered a coloured now he will have a harder and more tedious job. There are also serious consequences for the children as they have change their school. That's why they will probably get less educated teachers and they will get less educated themselves. Above all, as coloured children they surely will not make their career but have to work in low-paid jobs. Furthermore, the marriage could get destroyed because of these circumstances. Mrs Prinsloo is a “full-blooded white” so it is her choice: Accept the laws and live a less agreeable life or leave her husband and start over in life.

3) Write a continuation of the story from one of the children’s point of view.

Since the policemen visited my dad eleven weeks ago our life is completely destroyed. Now, we are faced with ruin. There is almost nothing we still have out of our previous life. We have to leave our home in about a week and I have to give up school in six days. What are we supposed to do after that week? We still have no new house and my parents did not find a new school for me yet. Another problem is, that we will run out of money because this is the last week my dad gets paid. Of course, he did not find a new job by now. There is even more to it than that. Most of my friends and acquaintances do not want to deal with me anymore, because the police told them lies about us. Furthermore the coloureds and blacks do not show real respect to us, because we are actually white and look like their enemies. They think we are unlike them and that we do not belong to them. Anyhow, the worst is that I don’t understand why all this is happening. We never did anything forbidden. We are white and even if we were coloured that would not be fair! My brother still thinks all of this is some kind of joke and we just need to appeal to someone who brings back our old life. I do not think that there is anything we can do. They just made our life to a living hell and we are helpless.

--80.171.32.226 (talk) 10:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

How old is the child in the third example? The child uses language that I don't associate with small children: faced with ruin, acquaintances, show real respect to us, forbidden, appeal to someone, living hell. HYENASTE 18:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe he is a clever teenager. --80.171.41.249 (talk) 09:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Russian translation

Hi everyone. I'm trying to write an article that's predominately about a Russian phenomenon. The source I would like to use is in Russian. If it's possible, could someone translate the text from beneath the bear picture to where the conversation about Preved Medved ends? [6] If you can post the translation in one of my sandboxes (User:Seraphim Whipp/Sandbox 3) so I can attribute it and have it deleted after, I would be most appreciative. Thanks :). Seraphim♥ ^Whipp 13:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Which bear picture? There are at least seven bear pictures on that page. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been clearer. The first picture which shows a couple having sex and a bear, whose arms are raised in a Y shape. Seraphim♥ ^Whipp 15:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you are looking at the picture that's captioned "Коллаж «Превед!»", it can be translated as "The 'Preved!' collage". Hope it helps, although I have no idea why they called it a collage.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank-you for translating. However, I've not clarified myself again! *me/ hits head* I meant, could the paragraph of text with the conversation with the artist be translated. Sorry for being such a pain! Seraphim♥ ^Whipp 19:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

My Russian is still pretty poor, so I hope Ëzhiki or someone else who speaks the language better than I do can provide a better translation, but here are a couple of facts that I can make out of the first three paragraphs below the Preved Collage (but not including the interview):

• The bear's "preved" is quoted on more than 2,000 websites and 300,000 web pages. "Preved" returns 1,330,000 Google hits.
• It took only 14 days for "preved" to make its way to all corners of Russian language Internet.
• Many people are making their own art (referred in the text as аффтарские, that is авторские, or "original", in preved-speak) based on the preved bear theme.
• A new smiley has been invented; it's Y, the shape of the bear with arms outstretched in the air.
• A certain Vadim Sova bought the domain preved.ru for 20 USD and sold it for 1,500 USD on the next day. The domain's current owner, Konstantin Rykov provides @preved.ru email addresses.
• The word "preved" is used by protestors on their banners.
• You can buy T-shirts, caps, watches and even preservatives with the preved bear on them.

— Kpalion^(talk) 19:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yup, that's pretty much covers it. I'll translate the interview with the artist shortly (consider it a warning to avoid duplicate efforts) and put it into Seraphim's sandbox linked above.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I've started translating it (in User:Seraphim Whipp/Sandbox 3), but then, of course, something urgent came up, and I can't finish it. If someone wants to finish the final piece (I copied the untranslated part of the original to the sandbox), please do so; otherwise I'll try to finish it tomorrow. Best,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Orchestra's relation to conductor

An orchestra can be said to be "lead" by a conductor? In the sentence "performed by the XXX orchestra under XXX conductor", you can't say "under the conduction of XXX conductor", because conduction has only one definition and that isn't it - what word(s) do fit? ----Seans Potato Business 17:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Under the direction of ...? ---Sluzzelin talk 18:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Be aware that you've just made a very common misteak: the word you wanted is "led". The one you used refers to that heavy metallic element (and is the present participle of the verb "to lead"). +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 19:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You sure that "lead" is a mistake? How common? My dictionary (WordWeb Pro) gives an example: "This remark lead to further arguments among the guests" ----Seans Potato Business 21:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Common enough, I guess. That WordWeb thing got this one wrong. You should write and let them know. ("Misteak", huh? It never fails, does it?) --Milkbreath (talk) 22:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like they've already fixed it in their database. Don't understand what you mean about "misteaks" not failing...? ----Seans Potato Business 06:46, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps referring to my (intentional, ironic) misspelling of "mistakes". (Or maybe not.) Like how spelling flames often contain spelling errors. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 07:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

There are several possibilities. Yes, you can say that Bruckner's Symphony No. 8 was performed by the "the Munich Philharmonic led by conductor Sergiu Celibidache". You could also say "the Munich Philharmonic under the direction of Sergiu Celibidache", "the Munich Philharmonic conducted by Sergiu Celibidache", simply "the Munich Philharmonic under Sergiu Celibidache", or "the Munich Philharmonic under the baton of Sergiu Celibidache" (but not all conductors use a baton...). 194.171.56.13 (talk) 19:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. ----Seans Potato Business 21:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Rules of grammar

A long time ago, I came across a poster containing a list of prescriptivist "rules of English grammar", each written in such a way that it violated itself, such as "Remember to never split an infinitive" or "And never begin a sentence with a conjunction". Does anyone know where I could find this list? --Carnildo (talk) 20:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep. HYENASTE 21:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Not quite what I'm looking for: it's got sentences that are incorrect from any point of view. --Carnildo (talk) 21:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Obviously prescriptivists have some things right about grammar. I'm pretty sure this is what you're looking for. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

There are various versions of such lists around. One well known shorter list of 10 things not to do is attributed to William Safire; I have a photocopy of it, and I may even have seen a poster, but I don't know if it's online. However this suggests that he wasn’t the originator of the idea of putting together such a list - that honour goes to a George L Trigg. Apparently Safire thought this idea was ripe for further development, so he gave his readers a couple of starters and asked them to contribute further suggestions, which he published in his column. The link gives 33 of these rules (many, most or perhaps even all may be in Hyenaste's link which has 62). Safire later wrote a book called "Fumblerules" with, I assume, lots of further examples (I haven't read it). -- JackofOz (talk) 23:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sort of reminds me of the mnemonic names we gave to various phonological processes in grad school, names like "sync'pe", " 'pheresis", and "apocop' ". —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 10:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

An ambitious person

What are some words meaning someone who is very ambitious? I'm looking for a noun, not an adjective. Vitriol (talk) 21:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Go-getter; crusader (?); high-flier; self-starter; self-motivator. Can't think of any more at the moment. Hassocks5489 (talk) 23:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Overachiever, aspirant, workaholic, contender, a Gekko, a player, fast-burner, windsucker...?

I did an advanced search in the OED and came up with a few: ambitionist (1827), arrivist(e) (1944), Napoleon, mounter, climber, percher (obsolete and rare), and sky-flyer (1897). I would not have to look up "arriviste", "Napoleon", or "climber" if I ran into them in a text. --Milkbreath (talk) 17:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Rain maker. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC))

March 12

Japanese honorifics

When addressing a colleague of equal status, what Japanese honorific would I use to be as insulting as possible? --12.169.167.154 (talk) 03:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Depends on how well you know the person and whether you are speaking in Japanese or English. If in English, then you generally wouldn't use honorifics anyway (outside of maybe "Mr. Tanaka"). If you're conversing in Japanese, you should already know how to be rude. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, "honorific" implies being polite, so being rude is as easy as using no honorific. Seems like a stupid thing to do, though. If it's someone you work with, why in the world would you want to make it harder to work with the person. Why don't you just ask the colleague? You're trying to get on his bad side as it is, so you may as well be a total jerk. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Call them "anta". That means "you", which is even ruder than leaving off the honorific, and it's short for "anata", which would have been slightly more polite. It's like saying "whoever you are, I don't care to remember your name, and I don't have time for that extra syllable." --Masamage ♫ 01:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

PS. I don't actually recommend doing this; I assumed you were writing a story or something. X) --Masamage ♫ 01:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Whoever or whomever?

I know it means slightly different things, but which do you think is closer to what the author means: "I can sleep with whoever I want." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Imagine Reason (talk • contribs) 04:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Whether one takes the pronoun as the object of want or as the object of a preposition—the second with—in an elliptical construction ("I can sleep with Xever I want [to sleep with]"), it should be whomever according to the traditional "rules" of grammar. Of course, whoever is frequently seen (and more frequently heard) in such constructions nowadays. I'm not sure what you mean by "it means slightly different things" and "what the author means." Deor (talk) 04:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

That example is not the most clear-cut, unfortunately. In strict traditional grammar, whomever would be preferable, yes. This whole question is treated well at the article Who (pronoun).

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 05:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you considered "whomsoever" which sounds a little more natural than "whomever"? SaundersW (talk) 09:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to me it doesn't. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 10:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't you like the unstressed "so" which turns the word into a pretty pair of trochees, and restores the metre of the sentence? SaundersW (talk) 12:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Just cuz it's rhythmically pleasing doesn't mean it sounds natural! —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 13:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that in this case naturalness, like beauty, must rest in the ear of the hearer. It's hardly a question of earth-shattering importance, anyway. SaundersW (talk) 17:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

bouquet, or bouguet?

Its 'bouquet', or 'bouguet'? i think it is bouquet, but in my OXFORD dictionary, the word 'bouquet' does not exist, instead i can only found the word 'bouguet'. 'bouguet - bunch of flowers for carrying in the hand' this is how my dictionary explain. Which actually is the proper one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aforapple (talk • contribs) 04:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

It's bouquet. Your dictionary must have a misprint. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 04:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I have never heard of a "bouguet", but Googeling indicates that it is an occasional misspelling.

There is, however, a bouget, a word for pouches filled with water (or wine or whatever). These were used in the Middle Ages and are still used when travelling through arid stretches of land on horse back or by jeep .

I think there are a few depictions by Bosch or Brueghel, but I could not find one in a quick browse. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The Google hits for "bouguet" probably include a large number of scannos. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 12:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Success/downfall: one word meaning both?

Is there a word for a thing which is both a great strength and a great weakness? (eg. Being able to see into the future, being hyper-sensitive to grammar, being extremely tall...) I feel like I heard such a word recently, but I can't remember any particulars. (It's not hamartia, which is sort of related, not the same thing, and awesome.) --Masamage ♫ 05:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

All I can come up with is "a blessing and a curse", but that's not one word. Deuteronomy 11,26 has the most famous example, but it's a recurring topos in the bible. Perhaps there is a theological term for God attaching both blessings and curses to people or even objects? ---Sluzzelin talk 10:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Just chiming in one idea: Pyrrhic victory - a victory at too great a cost. Rfwoolf (talk) 10:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

One use of the phrase "two-edged (or double-edged) sword" is for something that can be either a blessing or a curse. Another related idea is a "mixed blessing". SaundersW (talk) 12:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

These are all on the right track; they mean exactly what I'm looking for. But its just one word (possibly a figment of my imagination? But I hope not). --Masamage ♫ 16:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

It's related to the classic sense of tragedy, surely? The idea that one's strength is one's weakness, in the Greek or Shakespearian sense. Macbeth had great ambition and that made him king and drove him mad. Hamlet was thoughtful and that didn't help either. Still not just one word, sorry. BrainyBabe (talk) 09:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. It's such a common dramatic concept that it seems like it's got to have a name, at least in Greek or Latin. --Masamage ♫ 16:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

It may be something in another language..? --Masamage ♫ 01:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's time to coin a new word. Ahem...George W. Bush's greatest strengthiness was his steadfastness / inflexibility. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

How about Hubris? In its pride before a fall sense? - X201 (talk) 16:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Not quite; hubris is kind of the transition from a strength to a weakness. This needs to be both at the same time. --Masamage ♫ 18:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Re Sluzzelin's idea, the mark of Cain seems to be a combination like that. And stubborness can be janusian appearing as strength while being a handicap. But yeah, on with the search... Julia Rossi (talk) 23:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Latin term for a specific legal concept

I cannot remember the name of a legal concept that I believe might be summed up in a Latin phrase and none of my Google searches have been productive. The concept I'm thinking of is that a person cannot be prosecuted for performing an action that is required by law. In other words, if a law requires you to take a particular action, then you cannot be prosecuted for taking that action. Can anyone identify that phrase or concept name? Thank you. 152.16.59.190 (talk) 09:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The example that came to mind was the Schießbefehl, the order and execution of shooting "border penetrators", which the European Court of Human Rights came to see as imcompatible with higher-ranking law. The border guards' defense did quote nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali and nulla poena sine lege which come close to what you're asking for, but no cigars, I'm afraid. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Google as a verb: ever intransitive?

Can Google (verb) be used as an intransitive verb? For example, is it appropriate to say "Kushal googles." without any particular object? Can it be used in the same way as "Kushal smiles." or "Kushal sleeps." ? Thanks Kushal 11:41, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Technically, whenever you say "Kushal is googling for recipes" you're using "google" as an intransitive verb, because its complement is not a direct object (a noun phrase) but rather a prepositional phrase ("for recipes"). The article you linked to even says, "The first recorded usage of google used as a verb was on 8 July 1998, by Larry Page himself, who wrote on a mailing list: 'Have fun and keep googling!'", where Larry Page used the verb without even the preposition phrase complement. If you can say "Kushal is googling recipes", you're using it transitively. I can't quite decide if that sounds grammatical to me or not. I probably wouldn't say it myself, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear it used. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 12:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Any verb that can be used transitively can also be used intransitively: some more naturally and readily than others, though. Hard cases are use and say (where speak is a normal choice for the intransitive equivalent). Here are examples with them as intransitive:

Lady Jane is so posh: she doesn't use, she utilises.

Are you still using, Dino? I thought you were clean these days!

I do, but she only says!

Why? Because I said so!

So is not an object of said, is it?

But the theory of transitivity is complex, I am told. I have my own thoughts on the matter, connected with my theory of voice in English... but we don't want original research here!

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 13:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Why? Because I said so!

Ups... that's a brain-teaser, isn't it? Technically, so is an adverb there. But it stands in replacement of a clause which would act as a direct object to say. I fancy that so could perfectly be substituted by it in that example. But in terms of purely syntactical terms, I guess I agree with Noetica in that it's an example of say lacking a direct object. Pallida  Mors 15:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Angr: I wouldn't say 'Kushal is googling recipes', but I would say 'I googled myself'. The OED has 'I've googled some keywords', 'I came right home and googled her' and 'Googling his name every few hours'. Algebraist 16:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The dictionary that comes preinstalled with my computer says it can be used as both transitive and intransitive. I would like to learn about the statement that "Any verb that can be used transitively can also be used intransitively".

One more point of interest is capitalizing Google in Google (verb). my dictionary that came preinstalled with my computer used Google with a capital G when using it as a transitive verb. is it better (or even acceptable) in any situation? Please let me know.

Thank you very much for the insightful help so far. I really appreciate it. I would love to read more about it, especially since I am not a native speaker. Kushal 17:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Please assist: pay rates for transcribing audio?

okay i just got recruited to start transcribing financial conference and earnings call for companies which are mainly overseas.First,my avergae is like 30-35 words per minute.Okay am from kenya and guys arent that fast in typing,anyways am still practicing on how to up my speed.In general someone tyipng 35 wpm fast or just a lamer?and would better be suited doing something else?

2.what is the average pay for a 3 minute audio.How much do companies pay for something like a 3 minute audio to be transcribed?because am being paid around 160 dollars monthly.i do an average of nine calls a day,each being one and a half minute becasue we split them into two.If anyody can please inform me so i know if am better off,if i went back to college rather than being ripped off(which i feel i am).I just want a basic or general sum that comapnies pay for transcriptions.

If you are in Kenya, then you have probably been hired because the company expects to pay a lot less than it would pay in its home country. For this kind of work in the United States, you would be expected to type at least 55 words per minute, and you could expect to earn maybe $14–16 an hour. With 40-hour weeks, that would be $2,700 a month before taxes (maybe $2,000 a month after taxes). Given your slower typing speed, your work would still be worth something like $1,500 a month in the United States, though it would be difficult to live on that income in most cities, because expenses are so high here. Marco polo (talk) 18:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

so being paid 160 dollars is a rip off?thanks marco polo,this is my last month at the office. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.220.113.117 (talk) 20:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

As Marco Polo implied, pay rates reflect the local cost of living, as well as local demand for educated labor. Your wages would be much higher in New York City than in Eureka, California. In Nairobi, the costs of living are lower than either, and I believe the unemployment rate is higher, so your wages are going to be correspondingly lower. However, $160 a month does seem to maybe be a bit on the low side. — kwami (talk) 01:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The other thing to consider is how many hours a month you are working. A lot of this work is farmed out in piecework. That affects the hourly rate, and thus the rate per minute. BrainyBabe (talk) 07:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Lebanese (Arabic) translation

How does one say "I want to kidnap you and cover you in chocolate" in Lebanese (Arabic)? Acceptable (talk) 19:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation in headings: a full stop at the end?

Say you were presented with something like this:

"When I sneeze, the world listens."

- Chuck Norris, world karate champion

Let's say this was on a poster or something, in a magazine or on a billboard. My thinking is that the normal guidelines for full stops do not apply when sentences are left on their own as headings or straplines, and are dictated more by the individual needs of the layout. However my boss is adamant that they should, not for reasons of style as such, but because there is already punctuation in the sentence. If there is a comma, she reasons, there must be a full stop. Presumably if there were no other punctuation marks in the attribution she wouldn't feel a full stop was necessary. What do you think? FreeMorpheme (talk) 21:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You are right, and your boss is wrong. (A good feeling, yes?) It is widely accepted in standard style guides that you do not put a full stop at the end of a heading, even if other punctuation is present. You do put a question mark, if the heading is a question, and you may put an exclamation mark. This all applies whether or not the heading makes a full grammatical sentence. In exceptional cases, a heading might consist of a full grammatical sentence with more following it. In such a case, end the full grammatical sentence with a semicolon (;), and do not capitalise what follows it (unless you are applying capitals to all major words, etc.). Some cases call for other handling; but you get the basic idea. See Wikipedia's Manual of Style WP:MOS for guidance on this, and for links to other pages where these things are discussed. Wikipedia does some things in unusual ways, but is quite standard with its headings.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Noetica. So whereabouts on the Defcon scale of prescriptivism would someone have to be to consider it actually incorrect to put a full stop after 'champion' in my example?

(It is indeed a good feeling, a warm tingly sensation, I'd say.) FreeMorpheme (talk) 22:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Asking the impossible

I recently found myself writing the following words:

The gay rumour mill is usually the very worst place to find factual information about such matters. The Canberra rumour mill is, paradoxical as it might seem, even worse. Put them together and there's no telling what you could hear from "reliable sources" that sound quite plausible.

Thinking about contradictions like this, I was also reminded of the first movement of Robert Schumann’s Piano Sonata No. 1 in G minor, Op. 22, which contains the infamous tempo indications: “So rasch wie mōglich”, followed by “Schneller” and later by “Noch schneller”, which I understand to mean “As fast as possible”, “Faster”, and “Faster still”. Apart from the apparent impossibility of obeying the composer’s apparently impossible second and third instructions without disobeying his first, is “paradox” the right word to describe this sort of thing? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

That's Schumann for you. But it is almost de rigueur for composers to ask for the uninterpretable or the downright impossible, isn't it? Sometimes not in words (chords for the piano that can't be played without six fingers to the hand, for example: though arpeggiation is very often assumed). Beyond that, there is an enormous amount of music theory that is illogical, yielding flat contradictions and (sharp?) uncertainties in even the best reference works (yes, New Grove certainly among them), wherefore we make articles like Diatonic and chromatic to bring what order we can. So much more to fix in our music theory articles, though!

Shifting genres and worlds, which rock group was it that asked the sound techs for everything to be louder than everything else? My schooling was deficient in that area.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

"These go to 11...it's one louder." Adam Bishop 02:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.49 (talk)

The Canberran gay rumour mill? I'd best warn some people... I'd use impossible rather than paradoxical. 'Theoretically impossible' implies further that reality shows it truly is possible. Steewi (talk) 03:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Love that scene, Adam, and Noetica cannot be forgiven for pretending not to remember Motörhead. How do native English speakers feel about phrases such as "more optimal" or "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union"? One of my teachers went nuts when we combined comparatives and superlatives like that, but it has never bothered me. I think Schumann is playing with the poor pianist, as often, and he might also be referring to the Italian usage of musical terms such as prestissimo. The suffix -issimo can mean either an absolute superlative (the fastest, as fast as possible) or also merely a very high and exceptional, but still increasable, degree of quality (very fast, extraordinarily fast). ---Sluzzelin talk 05:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Arrgh, someone else who doesn't understand what "a more perfect Union" means. Comparatives like "more X" don't always mean "it was X before, and now it's even more X"; they can also mean "it wasn't X before, and it still isn't, but it's closer". If a students gets an F in math in one grading period, and the next grading period he pulls his grade up to a D, it is reasonable to say his performance is better, though still not good. Likewise, the framers of the Constitution were not saying the Union was perfect before and they wanted to make it more perfect; rather, they were saying the Union was imperfect before, and would still be imperfect after, but they wanted to bring it closer to perfection. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 07:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I do understand what it means. Nevertheless, applying a comparative to an absolute term with definitions or synonyms such as "flawless", "accomplished", or "indefectible" seemed like something that might bother prescriptivist pedantics (like my teacher). Perhaps not, then. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Sluzz, I know what you mean about the different languages used in musical instructions and the variance in meanings they import. If I saw prestissimo on a piece, I would not assume it is to be played as fast as humanly possible, because that would introduce a wide range of speeds depending on the capabilities of the pianist. When we say a car was travelling "extremely fast", we don't refer to the utter extreme of the possibility of speed, the speed of light; and not even to the fastest speed that particular car can possibly do under any circumstances; but more as a way of distinguishing that speed from a lower speed, such as "very fast". And that's how prestissimo would be read: faster than "very fast", but still not as fast as humanly possible. However, apparently Schumann wrote his instructions in his native German, and "So rasch wie mōglich" can't be interpreted any other way than "as fast as possible". My edition of the score has the German words, followed by the Italian prestissimo in brackets, presumably put there by the editor, Harold Bauer. Maybe the composer didn't want it to be interpreted quite that literally, but if so, what was he on about? However, let's not turn this into a discussion about Schumann and his artistic milieu. I'm more interested in a compact way of referring to these sorts of circumstances where words stop you in their tracks because they contradict something that went before. Maybe "contradiction" is the best word. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Will refrain from trying to answer that one, and sorry for feeling compelled to return to the musical milieu, but I thought you might appreciate the fact that Ligeti 's Continuum has the following tempo marking: Madly (fast), even faster than possible, and even faster than Schumann's "noch schneller"." ---Sluzzelin talk 21:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, on the principle of the piling on of multilingual prefixes that has given us hemidemisemiquaver, we could say that the first such expression (e.g., Schumann's "So rasch wie mōglich") is hyperbolic, the second ("Schneller") is superhyperbolic, the third ("Noch schneller") is oversuperhyperbolic, und so weiter. Deor (talk) 01:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Which would make Ligeti's marking ultraoversuperhyperbolic, perhaps? (Sluzzelin, I've never been much of a Ligetist, but I just love that one. I must listen to Continuum next time I have a chance. Thank you. (jocular thought enters brain) Those players of Continuum who don't know their Schumann would be wondering what Ligeti was on, and when they track down the reference, they'd then be wondering what Schumann was on. How awfully confusing for them. I feel their pain. But I still won't go their concerts.) -- JackofOz (talk) 03:40, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

March 13

Chinese phrasing for how a character is composed?

Okay, now it's my turn to ask one. What's the Chinese phrasing for describing how a Chinese character is composed? I'm thinking of something like "join 金 (metal) with 同 (together) to produce 銅 (copper)". How would that normally be worded in colloquial Chinese, say if this were a difficult character you were describing to someone you were speaking with? Or in formal Chinese, say in a book teaching children how to write? Thanks, — kwami (talk) 01:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

If I had to colloquially describe the character to someone, I would break it down into its radical components and say something like this: 铜，铜器的铜，左边是金部，金属的金。右边是同，相同的同。65.96.127.245 (talk) 03:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

In a book I might expect something like this: 金字旁加“同”组成“铜”。The radical name plus the character. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Colloquially I might also simply say 金属的铜 or 青铜的铜 -- "铜 as in the metal", or "铜 as in bronze".

More generally, some characters which commonly cause confusion - especially surnames and other characters commonly used in names - have colloquial names such as "草头黄" for "黄" - "Grass head 黄" --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

If you're just trying to distinguish it from others you can say 金字旁的铜, or like 65.96 says, refer to words that use the character. You could also describe it as 金子跟同学的同那一字. Steewi (talk) 03:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, y'all. I'm familiar with some of these, so let me give you the context:

In the article on rongorongo which I've been working on, a few early researchers got recitations from some Easter Island elders who claimed to be able to read the old tablets. However, the resulting "creation chants" were almost gibberish, had nothing to do with Polynesian creation mythology, and have been no help in deciphering rongorongo. A couple of the more intelligible verses are,

Grove by copulating with Trunk produced the ashwood tree.

Killing by copulating with Sting Ray produced the shark.

One of my references suggests that these, besides being badly translated, might actually be old rules for how to compose rongorongo characters. A better translation might be,

By joining 'Grove' into 'Trunk', that the ashwood tree come forth.

By joining 'Killing' into 'Sting Ray', that the shark come forth.

The author compares this to Chinese characters, where you might say something like "By joining 金 with 同, so that 銅 results". I was wondering if something like this was actually said in Chinese, or if it were just something that potentially could be said. 金字旁加“同”组成“铜” isn't too far off, but I'm looking for something that better illustrates the parallel, if such phrasing exists. — kwami (talk) 09:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Mnemonics exist for certain characters, see Biang. 65.96.127.245 (talk) 11:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

From a Google search, I found this "real life" examples: "“同”字加上“金字旁”就是“铜”". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Interwiki checking request at Legal code (municipal)

Not sure if this is the right place for this - I thought of Wikipedia:Translation but this isn't a translation request per se...

A bit of background: the Legal code article started off being about the philosophical concept of "code" as opposed to "law". It then somehow morphed into an article about municipal codes - such as building codes. This was clearly not what the majority of links to that article were contemplating. So I moved Legal code to Legal code (municipal), and redirected Legal code to a new article Code (law), which is about code law, such as the Civil Code.

In this process, I noticed that many of the interwiki links on the old legal code article, now at Legal code (municipal), were about code law and not municipal codes - I have moved the ones which I could determine to be so from the foreign language articles. There are a few, though, that I'm not sure about. Could I ask the experts on this page to take a look at de:Gesetzbuch, lt:Kodeksas, pl:Kodeks (zbiór praw), ru:Кодекс, and sv:Lagbok to see whether they are about municipal codes (like building codes) or code law (like the Civil Code)? If the latter, the link should probably be moved across to Code (law).

If it helps, mentions of the Justinian Code probably indicates the latter. Many thanks, --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The German article was about code (law). I've added the appropriate interwiki links. -Elmer Clark (talk) 03:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Etymology of Sweater

Why is that thick cotton shirt called a sweater? Is it because it makes the wearer sweat? --~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 03:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Dictionary.com lists the etymology as "sweat + er", dating from the late 1800s, so it sounds like you're right. That's what I've always assumed, too. Does seem a little weird, though; most people wear sweaters to normalize their temperatures. --Masamage ♫ 04:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know where I've put my temperature-normalizer? Hmm, doesn't have quite the same effect, does it.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 04:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

In British English they are called 'jumpers', which makes even less apparent sense. FreeMorpheme (talk) 08:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Here we go, from the OED:

• Clothes in which a horse or a man in training is exercised, to produce profuse sweating. (now obsolete)

• A woollen vest or jersey worn in rowing or other athletic exercise, originally in order to reduce one's weight; now commonly put on also before or after exercise to prevent taking cold.

• Hence a similar garment for general informal wear.

So the derivation is almost exactly that of more recent 'sweats' (sweat pants, sweat shirt, etc.)

As for 'jumper', it seems that was originally a 'jump', which may have been a corruption of 'jupe'. — kwami (talk) 09:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

According to http://www.io.com/~dierdorf/ww-39.html, jumper is derived from Arabic jubbah (a long open coat) by way of Spanish aljuba and French juppa. There is a similar German word "Joppe" of identical etymology. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 09:51, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

There are a few more interesting bits mentioned in the link given. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 09:58, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Marines: must it always be capitalized?

I have heard (from several friends in the Marines) that the word "Marines" is always supposed to be capitalized. I was wondering ... is this true? Is that a "real" rule of grammar? Or is that just something that Marines do as a symbol / convention of respect, etc.? (I am talking about US Marines.) And, furthermore, does this mean that the word "Marine" is always a proper noun and never a common noun? Thus, "John was the oldest Marine at the party" ... is that a proper noun or common noun? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 08:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC))

The US Marine Corps is a proper noun, and a 'Marine' is derived from that. It's a common noun, but like 'American', the capital letter shows you it's derived from a proper noun. Perhaps the same is true in Britain for the Royal Marines? However, in the generic sense, a marine officer is simply an officer serving aboard a ship, and you'll often see "the marines" in this sense. Capitalization in such cases is often irregular. — kwami (talk) 09:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You have to capitalize if you mean "Semper Fi" jarhead, as in your example: "John was the oldest Marine at the party". Always, no exceptions, yes. It's not grammar, it's style, by the way, and it's not about respect, it's about typographical convention and the meaning of a capital letter. It does seem unfair, though. We don't capitalize "sailor" or "soldier" (but we can "private" or "seaman" if we mean a particular individual). Every Marine is a Marine in a stricter sense than every member of the U.S. Army is a soldier or every Navy man a sailor. You could call an admiral "sailor" and he would not be at all insulted, but it would be unusual, whereas the Commandant of the Marine Corps is a Marine, pure and simple. It's a bit of an anomaly, to be sure, now you've made me look at it.

It's pretty rare to see the lowercase generic "marine" these days, because all our marines are Marines, if you take my meaning. Before they were a separate branch of the armed forces, you could talk about lowercase marines serving on board ships, and you still would if you were writing about those bygone days. --Milkbreath (talk) 11:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Almost always capitalized when referring to a specific marine corps such as the U.S. Marine Corps. For example: My brother is a marine. It is a generic term. Unless you mean specifically My brother is a (British Royal) Marine. Then it should be capitalized. But since my dad is a Marine, yes you should always fucking capitalize Marine. But if and I think my father would use a term like "little grammar bitch" no, it doesn't always have to be capitalized from a purely gramatical standpoint. hoo rah.

You've got me worrying now. How is your second sentence an example of the principle you expounded in your first? Unless, perhaps, it's an example of one of the exceptions I infer to exist from "almost always". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

There are no hard and fast "rules" for things like this. There are only official styles adopted by organizations and professions. The U.S. military might establish a style that "Marine" is to be capitalized when referring to a member of the USMC. But your workplace may differ. My advice is that if you are in doubt, trust an authoritative source like the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, which uses lower case for "a marine" in all circumstances. (Compare the entries for "marine" and "Realtor.") -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Badge in Spanish

How do you say "badge" as in a policeman's badge in the Spanish language? Is it credencial? Does it vary by country? Do policemen in Spanish speaking countries carry badges or some other form of identification? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.1.91.172 (talk) 11:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

And how would you say, estate, such as my father's estate or I live in Redwood Estates, or I inherited a large estate as in porperty/land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.1.91.172 (talk) 11:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Placa is the precise translation for badge. Identificación could also be used, especially if no plaque is present. This last term is the most frequent here in Argentina. I don't know what's the case elsewhere.

Estate is a really hard word to translate into Spanish. Propiedad inmueble is a generic translation. Bienes raíces or bienes inmuebles are two technical terms for it. Finca and hacienda are more specific than propiedad; the former could apply to a rural or urban property, while the latter is more or less specific to rural estates.

Establecimiento is also another option, especially for productive rural properties, at least here in Argentina. Pallida  Mors 14:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Either/or

An LSAT review books offers this as an answer choice: "Either Wilma or Vivian's appointment is at 10AM." However, because "Vivian is only restricted to the 11AM or 4PM appointments," the answer choice is ruled out. Is that how you usually use "either...or..." in a sentence?! Thanks. Imagine Reason (talk) 15:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The words following either and or should normally be synactically parallel: "Either Wilma's or Vivian's appointment …" Since it's a distracter rather than a supposedly correct answer—and since the question doesn't appear to be a test of grammar anyway—I'm not sure that it matters much in this instance, though. Deor (talk) 16:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't even notice that error, but you're correct. What I was wondering, however, is that even if Vivian's appointment isn't at 10AM, that sentence can still be true, no? Does it on the LSAT only refer to the case where both Wilma's and Vivian's appointments can be at 10AM? Imagine Reason (talk) 16:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I'd failed to see what you were asking about (perhaps because this is the Language desk rather than the Logic desk). My take is that unless it is established somewhere that Wilma also cannot have a 10 A.M. appointment, the sentence is not logically flawed. There's no logical error in saying "Either John or Mary is dead" even if it has been established that one of them is in fact alive. (By the way, the only in the book's sentence explaining the incorrectness of the answer is redundant. I guess lawyers need be neither logicians nor prose stylists.) Deor (talk) 16:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Haha, you're right again. Thank you. Imagine Reason (talk) 17:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The "only" is not only redundant, but being out of the place it would belong to if it weren't redundant, it's misleading. It suggests that he's restricted to 11AM or 4PM, but not restricted to any other possible times, which, as well as being one of the best non-sequiturs I've seen in many a long moon, gives the initial false impression that he has a wider choice of times than he actually has. If it belongs anywhere, it belongs before 11AM, but it would still be well, wrong there. What I'm really saying is that if you're going to rob a bank, it's better to take only $100 rather than $10,000. (Maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night ...) -- JackofOz (talk) 20:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, may be; what's a long moon? But you're right about everything except Vivian's sex. We can't just dismiss the whole problem by saying "it's only a distracter", either. The whole test should be in regular English, not some garbled junk. As for the logic, logic per se does not apply in language, which has its own logic. "Either Wilma or Vivian's appointment is at 10AM" means that only one is, and if we already know which the sentence is nonsense. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

"Long moon"? Hmm, maybe I was confusing "many a long day" with "many moons". But I rather like my new unconsciously spawned brain-child, so thanks for drawing it to my attention, Milkbreath. Vivian's sex? Vivian Campbell, Sir Vivian Richards, Vivian Stanshall, and Vivian Ellis were all males last time I looked under their dresses. Oscar Wilde named one his sons Vyvyan. So while it is predominantly used as a female name, let us pay due regard to the minority groups among us (I refer to those poor put-upon men named Beverley, Kay, Vivian, Kerry, Patrice, Joán, et al). Say, that gives me a great idea! I'm going to create a literary character named "Vivian Longmoon". You heard it here first. Vladimir Nabokov would be proud of me. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you trying to tell us that we can discover your real name by playing around with the letters of "Vivian Longmoon"? How can that be, when there's no j, c, or k in it? Deor (talk) 21:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention f or z. But how transparent of me. You've guessed it. My real name is Anvil von Ooming (my Urlicht-affected parents worshipped the Norse god Thor and used the Anvil Chorus from Il Trovatore as their personal anthem), but I'm thinking of changing it to Olga von Von Mini. (I'll explain the double "von" thusly: I'm descended from an Italian family named Mini that moved to Germany and was ennobled back in the dim dark ages. Rothbart von Mini was mixed up in some local revolution, was deprived of his aristocratic estates and titles, and was exiled to Iceland via Mongolia, but nevertheless had his surname registered in Reykjavik as "Von Mini". My great-grandfather Lars Von Mini moved back to Germany, and was re-ennobled, as Lars von Von Mini. Please stop me any time now ...) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Vivian accidentally made an appointment for a time when they are not actually available, overbooking the time slot.  --Lambiam 22:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe it's just the review book. I've not found one GMAT or LSAT review book that includes fewer than several errors, but this one easily takes the crown. After every group of questions is a list of the answers, which ALWAYS have a few deviations from the explanations of solutions that then immediately follow. Someone must have been terrible drunk or absent when they put together the book. Imagine Reason (talk) 02:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but -- to be fair -- the statements that you quote in the original post are probably taken from a larger context. It might be helpful to provide all of that context ... that is, the entire question. Usually, those LSAT-type questions involve a lot of scenarios (conditions) happening simultaneously. Which allows the examinee to include or exclude certain facts. Which ultimately allows the examinee to deduce the correct answer. So, I assume that the original post was accompanied by other facts / sentences / conditions --- which would provide more context to the LSAT practice question and the original poster's question. Otherwise, the answer to your question is "yes". That is indeed how one would normally use "either / or" in a sentence. To parse: this sentence ("Either Wilma's or Vivian's appointment is at 10AM.") ... is a short-hand / abbreviated version of saying "Either Wilma's appointment is at 10AM or Vivian's appointment is at 10AM." In plain English, one of these individuals has a 10:00 appointment and the other does not. Contrast logically with this: "Wilma's or Vivian's appointment is at 10AM." This new sentence (deleting the word "either") now means something altogether different. The new sentence is a short-hand / abbreviation version of saying "Wilma's appointment is at 10AM ... or Vivian's appointment is at 10AM ... or both appointments are at 10AM." Thus, if we delete the term "either" ... we are left with three possible scenarios: one lady has the 10AM slot, the other lady has it, or perhaps they both have it. I assume that Wikipedia has articles on the disjunctive "or" ... which can be either inclusive (one component or the other component or perhaps both) or exclusive (one component or the other, but never both). (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC))

search engines as concordancers, or free online ones

We're all familiar, I take it, with using Google as a sort of basic concordancer. You can search for a string in quotes (e.g. "raining cats and") and see what words follow and precede the phrase. Has anyone systematised this? Are there any research papers about the technique? Or are there any good free concordancers that would be usable with learners? An acquaintance of mine who is teaching English wants to use one with his students learning the language. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

For web work, try Webcorp [7]. For desktop use with hand-built corpora, I believe Laurence Anthony's AntConc [8] is still the last word in freeware (has some issues with certain encodings, but that shouldn't be a problem if you're just using English). However, your colleague will also want to consult some of the abundant literature on data-driven learning and the promises and pitfalls of providing students with direct access to raw linguistic data. -- Visviva (talk) 04:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Orthographic usage: centimeter and centimetre

There is a anonymous contributor changing some units thinking there is an orthographic error. For instance, centimetre has been changed into centimeter. In fact both are in the English language, the first is British usage while the second is American. Is there an official usage in this wikipedia or is there discrimination against Britsh and Canadian users? What to do when someone is systematically changing the units like that? Pierre cb (talk) 19:12, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

See WP:ENGVAR. The spellings used in an article should be consistent, and an editor should not change British to American, or vice versa, without good reason. Such changes can be reverted with a citation of the relevant guideline. (There's a template, {{subst:uw-lang}}, that one can place on the user talk page of an editor making such unnecessary changes.) Deor (talk) 19:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Pierre cb (talk) 19:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

However, don't revert if the user is only changing the spelling in articles related to American topics (places in the U.S., people from the U.S., etc.), or in articles where American spelling is otherwise established in the article's history. In those cases, changing from British to American spelling is acceptable. (And vice versa, mutatis mutandis, of course.) —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 20:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

In the case in point, the user that Pierre cb noticed was Americanizing the spellings at Radar. The very oldest version of that page uses American spellings, so the anon was actually justified in his actions. (However, it would have been more politic not to call fibre and centimetre "spelling errors" in the edit summary.) —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 20:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course it's quite possible that he's simply unaware that those are the correct British spellings. -Elmer Clark (talk) 08:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

And, of course, radar is a British invention, so British spelling would be more appropriate as per WP:ENGVAR. Malcolm XIV (talk) 10:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

In the specific case of SI units I believe it is policy to use the UK/euro version, in general other cases (color/colour) I think US is standard..87.102.83.204 (talk) 12:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:UNITS#Units_of_measurement deosn't seem to state whether to use meter or metre..87.102.83.204 (talk) 12:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Also the wikiprojects will often settle on what version to use, depending on context, so if there is a relevent project - get advise there.87.102.83.204 (talk) 12:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

March 14

How to pronounce: Leah Buechley?

http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~buechley/about_me/about_me.html

I don't have a dictionary of surnames at hand... Searching yielded no results... Thanks... The Other Saluton (talk) 11:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

If Australian books have their spelling and grammar changed...?

Not sure if this is the correct reference desk to ask this, but: If Australian books have their spelling and grammar changed when released in America, why isn't it the same when American books are released in Australia? 124.176.160.139 (talk) 11:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Cultural ignorance? (Dons tin helmet. Heads for bunker) - X201 (talk) 11:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

America is a (far) bigger market and so can expect better 'localisation' perhaps, of course I find it odd that any change is neccessary since the two 'languages' are mutually intelligble (as far as I know).87.102.83.204 (talk) 12:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Mostly intelligible, but can still be irritating rather than defeating. Little things like Fall instead of Autumn, faucet instead of tap, trunk instead of boot. Non-US readers can understand them but it gives off the feeling that the publisher can't be bothered with you, wants the sales but can't be bothered to put in any effort to get them. Same is true of US companies that use their US TV ads in Europe and just re-dub them, it engenders a feeling of "you can't be bothered to make an advert for me and my fellow countrymen, I can't be bothered with your product" And I suppose to answer the original question, it's probably mostly down to economics, population and sales wise it's the equivalent of asking them to produce a Texas only version. - X201 (talk) 12:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)